Before I get started, please don't scream. I am just *waiting* for the douchebag assault to begin, because after all, this is an internet forum and it'll happen come hell or high water no matter what I say. This post is not for the douchebags, it's for the reasonable people who are willing to discuss, listen and talk in a rational way.
I got my first fuze the day before launch (November 10th), and out of the gate it was problematic. Now, I was and still am enamored by the feature set, and the hardware is amazing when it's working right. My first fuze locked up and crashed programs *constantly*. After a week and a half I exchanged it for another, and this was a better experience, but still flawed.
Fuze #2 never once locked up, but it did crash programs pretty frequently. Not every day and not every program and not even consistently, but it did so with enough frequency to be damn annoying. The AT&T software load, as everyone already knows, is complete ****. It makes a 528Mhz phone with 8 times the RAM of my old Wizard feel slower than the Wizard with a hacked ROM, and that's just sad. I've been using my Wizard (a cingular 8125) since launch, and I can honestly say that unlike most phones the experience only kept getting *better* as the hardware aged, and it was able to do so as a direct result of the fine folks of XDA who have cooked up some really amazing ROM's. The work you guys do is phenomenal and it only gets better as time goes on.
And so I loaded up a custom ROM from here on my Fuze. It was, to say the least, WORLDS better than the AT&T stock ROM. But it still had its annoyances. Some programs would still crash. There was still hesitation here and there when using the Manila 3D UI. Finding and acquiring software to run on it is a pain. Don't get me wrong--Windows Mobile has GOBS of great software available and I've blown hours upon hours finding it, playing with it, enjoying it, over the last 2 and a half years.
Of course, that's part of the problem--to get the really good stuff you have to search endlessly all over the web to find the really great stuff for WinMo. XDA is a terrific place because there is so much stuff discussed and linked to, but even here you have to trudge through miles of posts and it's a pain, plus there's the whole process of downloading, unarchiving, copying to the device, installing to the device--only to do it all over again when the next great ROM comes out. This isn't the fault of anyone here, but it's evidence of a problem that's grown beyond the community's ability to solve--the problem is with Windows Mobile itself and the infrastructure that does--or more accurately does NOT--support it.
Let me 'splain. When I finally had enough of my Fuze, I took it back to AT&T to find something else. I dicked with the Blackberry, I hated it. I've always hated blackberry, both from an infrastructure support side and from an interface side. So that was out. I've never been an Apple guy EVER. In college we had some piece of **** Mac's that were just miserable to use and I learned very well to hate them, so I hadn't even considered an iPhone.
And then I tried it. My first response, as an official Mac hater, was to find its flaws. The camera is mediocre (2mp? LAME!). But then, I have a REAL camera for taking any serious pictures (let's face it, no cell phone camera is going to replace a nice Canon or Nikon any time soon for high end photography). The screen resolution isn't as nice as the Fuze...yet it's still better than the Wizard was, and it's not so low that it ends the world. I hate that there are no hardware buttons except for Home, Power, Mute and the volume toggle, but then, the Fuze wasn't replete with buttons either and I'd already weaned myself off the Wizard's multiple buttons anyway. And it pisses me off that I can't use a friggin' MicroSD card to cheaply expand my storage.
But then I started to see what the device is really all about, and what really blew me away is how easy it is to use and to access a fat library of good apps, both paid and free. I don't even have to leave the device, I can browse it all straight from the phone, install it straight from the phone in a single step, and when I plug it into my PC it's all synced. When the next software update happens I just sync and everything I installed is put right back where I wanted it to be.
In short, I finally see why people are tripping over the iPhone. It's not the hardware, because let's face it the iPhone is outclassed in hardware by plenty of phones, including the Fuze. It's the interface, it's the software, it's the ease of use. And for me, at this point in my life where I'm trying to do more with my time than ever before, that makes it a great device choice for me. The iPhone, simply enough, will save me time and effort, and it enables me to do things I just can't do with Windows Mobile.
Now, my sincere hope is that WinMo 7 fixes these many issues. I hope it comes with an easy and fast UI. I hope the devices have multitouch screens. I hope there is finally an integrated backend infrastructure and an app store that nets easy access to both developers and consumers of applications and games. I hope it standardizes on a required minimum of built in storage but outdoes Apple by allowing you to expand it further with MicroSD (or whatever the hell comes next, but man do I hope NanoSD isn't next or I'll never be able to find my goddamn cards). And for goodness sakes, STOP vendors from loading the damn phones with all this bloat!
Compared to what Apple's done with the iPhone OS it feels like Windows Mobile is standing still, like Microsoft has dropped the ball and just stood there slack jawed as it rolled away. Maybe it's because they're so focused on kicking Sony in the nuts in the console wars, I dunno. All I can tell you is that what iPhone's software is today, WinMo's should have been a long time ago. The only reason it's survived this long is because guys like the geniuses on this forum have made it do things it was clearly never built to do in the first place.
With any luck I'll be trading in my iPhone for a WinMo 7 device, but I guess that remains to be seen. To everyone who's done anything for this community, I want to say thanks, because you made my enjoyment of my Wizard a true joy for almost 3 years.
Thanks,
Jason
I have mostly always used WM devices but in the mix of my many phones I have used both iPhones and I too agree that the interface is much simpler, easier to use, and direct, I also agree that certain apps specifically the games on the iPhone are uncomparable to the WM devices. Lastly, also think that the ease of app searching in the iPhone is the best, just browsing through the many apps is a joy.
With that said, using the iPhone is (to me) frustrating because most if not all apps crash, the web surfing is a pain because I remeber surfing and safari would constantly close. I traded my iPhone for the fuze and updates have done little to improve these problems, my wife still has the iphone 3g and I always have the same problems on her phone. In addition, I exchange my iphones multiple times because of these problem and they kept on happening. The only truly thing I miss from the iphone are the games and sometimes the appstore. The lack of multitasking is also horrible even by using the background tasking app when jailbreaking doesn't solve this dilema.
It really depends on what you need.
I honestly couldn't care less about the whole openness debate.
At least personally, I can jailbreak and get whatever (ok, maybe not) I want on an iphone.
The ui is much more responsive, and the screen is much larger.
BUT! I need physical keys, and that pretty much was the sole reason to not consider anything else.
Yesterday, while on the train, I was reading some stuff on Opera, while listening to music on Kimona, and typing away on Word, while swtiching between apps using Task Facade. Can I do this on the iPhone? Not as far as I know.
And about the larger screen, if I need to be typing frequently, the larger screen really doesn't benefit me since half of it will be filled with a virtual keyboard; what matters is a high res display. After comparing the two side by side, my choice was pretty clear.
Then there's another thing about the whole "responsiveness" debate. Honestly, at least with custom ROM's (which is really a bad excuse, since no one should have to do this to get past the minimum responsiveness), and running one app at a time, it's very snappy.
My point is, I find it inaccurate to state that the Fuze is a gateway to an iPhone without considering the target group and general purpose of winmo devices. Granted, more winmo phones want to hit the mainstream market, but let's face it, Fuze isn't targeted to hit any of the consumers out there. At&t did absolutely nothing to market it, and that really should be enough to invalidate the statement you provided. After all this is a forum where more technically inclined people hang around.
Wow, that's a lot of words. I'm surprised my ADD didn't kick in while reading it.
If you think that the iPhone will free you from crashes, think again. Yes, the interface is slick, but it is not the flawless stable system you see on the TV adds. I had the IPhone for a month before and returned it for the Fuze mainly because I got tired of Safari as well as any other memory intensive app constantly crashing.
The phone just doesn't have enough memory to be as good as it can be. My wife still has her iPhone which I recently upgraded to firmware version 2.2. This weekend, out of the blue, I asked her how it was performing. She replied "I just has to reboot the phone a minute ago."
I figure, if I have to deal with software lagginess and crashes, I might as well have a system that is accessible and customizable instead of one that is locked down. Oh, and the few extra buttons on the Fuze certainly do make a difference. But really, I find the Fuze with a new ROM MUCH MUCH more stable than the iPhone ever was.
Nice post, well thought out and honest. I, too, have a Fuze and am considering an Iphone. The bigger screen is a major factor; the Fuze screen is just so .. small! high-res is great, but pointless when you need to zoom in so close on things to read them that you might as well be running QVGA.
It seems I have a love/hate relationship with the Fuze, as many do here. One day, it drives me nuts -- Opera freezes up, scrolls and zooms in and out and behaves weird, the phone acts slow, bad GPS fix, and so on. I get frustrated and seriously consider returning it. Then, the next day it works like a dream! Quick GPS fix, opera works perfect, I discover something I did not know about before (i.e., circling your finger on a portion of a photo to zoom in right there -- cool!) and I would be sad to see it go.
I guess all we can do is be patient. As you said, other phones got better with age; I think it stands to reason that the same thing will happen with the Fuze. As better optimized web browsers get released (i.e., Fennec) and (hopefully) video drivers get updated, the whole experience should get better. If by some miracle we get WM7, who knows what that might bring. yeah, the hardware is frustrating -- small screen, weird buttons, no headphone jack -- but I think it is enough to deal with for now if we can get the software and drivers all optimized.
Thanks for all the great replies, guys. So far I have had the iPhone for just a shade over 48 hours, and I've updated to 2.2. I've experience no crashes yet, but I did need to reboot once after installing an app last night (weird, yet no biggie to me because I'm used to it in the Windows world).
I have to agree--I HATE that I can't run more than one app at a time on the iPhone. I don't know why they do that, but I can only presume that it's done that way in order to force memory to stay free so the OS remains quick and responsive. It's kind of a ****ty tradeoff IMHO, but at the same time...I'm liking the responsiveness and I *usually* don't do more than one thing at a time anyway. It's nice to have the option though.
By all means, I don't think Fuze is a waste at all (except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA), and I think that when it matures it'll be damn difficult to beat. I fully expect WinMo7 to eventually arrive on it (barring some bizarre hardware requirements, but who knows?), but even if it doesn't I think the ROM devs around here will eventually harness this thing into a terrific device. Unfortunately I just don't feel like waiting around, because for my almost $400 out the door I feel I should have walked out of the AT&T store with a phone that blew the doors off most others without any need for a hack.
On the bright side, by the time the ROM's are really mature and crazy fast/stable, the Fuze will probably have dropped in price substantially
For those developing ROM's, some of my thoughts on UI are:
1. Larger buttons! Especially for closing apps and using drop downs, those tiny little default X's are miserable for finger access. Finger friendly is the way of the future.
2. Customize Touchflo. I've seen some slick youtube videos with guys doing very iPhone/Coverflowish stuff and it appears buttery smooth. Of course, I could never find where to get the software to try it out, but if it's doable, heck...do it
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
Just some thoughts!
I can relate to OP. I'm upgrading form a Wizard as well (T-Mo US MDA). While new ROM's certainly made my Wizard better, I can say that custom ROM's on it were not an absolute requirement. While I continued to be more amazed by my Wizard, I just continue to be a little less pissed off at my Fuse.
XDA is the ONLY reason I have not returned my Fuze. I'm finally back to a totally stripped ROM, with no fancy I wish I bought an IPhone TouchFlo Horse ****, and no AT&T application Douchebaggery.
OP, I feel you on the lack of buttons. I miss playing pocket Nester / GB on my Wizard. I think it says alot when it is totally outclassed and still sticks around as my "GameBoy".
I definitely have mixed feelings about the Fuze. I waited to buy this over the Tilt for the camera, and I have been somewhat impressed by it. I miss the Wizard's Keyboard layout and overall style, with the buttons NOT touching each other.
@Fatheadpi,
I can't agree more (though I am rather enamored with the iPhone's UI. It's not the animation and all that crap though, it's the sheer *speed* of it and ease of getting to anything I want to get to).
Fuze is an impressive piece of hardware, yet at the same time there are issues with it--primarily software--that are really hard to overlook on such an expensive device.
The iPhone has been around for quiet a while now, and has had 2 revisions. The Fuze is fresh out of the box, so making a comparison so early in it's release is a little judgemental. it is possible that alot of out problems can be solved by a nice ROM update (like video drivers). Or just out right fixed by custom ROMs here. if you think that apple listens to what the people want, just take a look at the cut/paste, or Video recording issues.
One of the "great" things about the iPhone is one of it's biggest weakness too. The app store, while its a one stop shopping for apps, is also controled by apple, and they are the final say on what kind of programs you are allowed to run on your device. You also can write new ones (think Schaps Advance config) you have to take what they want you to have and like it. If you try to break their rules, then you might find yourself owning a brick when you sync it.
I think you need to look at this in a little bit of a different light here.
Apple has for the most part stated that they are a software company; almost all of their efforts these days are portals to Itunes where Apple makes money hence the reason for lacking hardware but great UIs and access to Itunes. They make loads more money on Itunes than on hardware.
Looking at this from AT&T's viewpoint they make money on data plans, minutes, texting, basically anything crossing their network so these types of things work great on the phone.
A third party to all of this is HTC which has to make something attractive but gets no additional money at all after you buy the hardware.
So looking at it this way, it makes perfect sense why a pleasurable experience on a Winmo device is driven by the end user, in essence no one else is interested in your problem because they don't make money off of you.
So maybe some entrepreneur out there should figure out a nifty UI like iTunes but for Winmo where a user can buy a new ROM, or try out/buy some cool apps and so forth, figuring out a cool way to upgrade the device.
The real truth here is that Apple owns everything about the iPhone, there is no one entity that owns Winmo devices so individuals end up taking over and this creates multiple and sometimes confusing paths to good stuff.
-Tim
jasongw said:
(except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA)
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If they don't do that, we may have to pay more for the device. So I really don't mind all the bloatware (you get what you pay for )
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
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http://getgecko.org/
I think these guys are trying to do just that. The problem is, ironically, but obviously, the openness.
Then there's this. It's from handango. Never tried it, probably not even close to what apple has. It's not the lack of it, but the way it's presented, which is precisely why--and you nailed this point--iphones sell. Of course, as I mentioned previously, most winmo users are at least prosumers, so they know what to do without all the oversimplifications.
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
@g2tl-- Gecko seems like a great idea, I really hope they make some good progress. I hadn't heard of that before, but I'll definitely be following their progress from here on out! Thanks for the heads up!
As for getting what you pay for, that's almost always true but I think there's an exception here. On the fuze you're getting more impressive hardware, but you're getting a much less polished piece of software that's quite outdated and difficult to manage by modern standards. Now, I'm a 13 year IT geek (good lord, did I just admit that?) so I've never been afraid of getting my hands dirty, and goodness knows it's a miracle my old 8125 survived all the flashing I did to it, but at a certain point it's nice for a device to just *work* without a lot of dicking around with it.
I am sure WinMo will eventually be that software, probably with WinMo7. It's just not there yet, and I think the real shame of that is that an awesome device like the Fuze (or any flavor of the touch pro for that matter) won't really be used to its full potential because the software is lagging so far behind the device itself.
Tim, I do get all that, and you're exactly right. I also think that's where a great many of the problems with WinMo come from, the fact that carriers can just shovel piles and piles of junk onto these phones just drags down the user experience.
I'd say maybe Microsoft needs to put out their own phone where they can present a coherent experience (their new Xbox Live interface is friggin' awesome), but then I'm sure we'd have a lot of crying foul from assorted carriers and competitors who cry monopoly. There's probably no easy solution from a development and implementation standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint it's actually fairly easy: go buy the device that offers what you need.
Right now for me--and surprisingly so because I never imagined buying one of these until 2 days ago--that device appears to be iPhone. I truly do hope for a WinMo7 device or even a Fuze WinMo7 hack that'll win me back eventually. I still love the dark side
jason - Suggestion for you, as this is finally what has made me very happy with my Fuse. Probably a little too late as you're running an I-Phone.
Think about this: You were a Wizard user. When you upgraded, you probably wanted a better camera, more power, and 16 gig storage options. You were probably running an OC'd cooked rom WITHOUT TouchFlo.
Here's my suggestion.
Starting from scratch, I have the phone I wanted after about an hour's work. TouchFlo 3D just continues to piss me off. The only nice things about it were the picture viewer, weather, and the music setup. However, I have music controls on my BT Headset, and I'll probably go find the HTC Music player / plugin tonite. I have HTC picture viewer installed in an out of the way place for the rare times I look at my pics. I'll figure something out for the weather option, tho I've lived without it for a number of years.
Thinking about it, it all kinda makes sense. PC users build PC's and use Windows because we know exactly what we want and how we want it. We don't put flashy, pointless bull**** interfaces up front to slow things down. (at least pre-Vista, anyways.)
Still tho, the Raphael and Diamond needed a different control pad and button set. Macs were built around the idea that an average idiot (no offense to MacFags) could just use something. PC's are designed with a bunch of buttons because PCFags will customize that to do awesome stuff.
jasongw said:
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
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I'll have to dissagree with you there, as the hardware is so different, it's a copletely different device. I came from the Hermes(8525) and it's not even close to the same(and I did love my heremes)
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
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I think what I said just came out wrong. I think over-critical would have been more accurate. I think that we look at things in perspective, and make decisions based on our needs. While I know that neither device is perfect(what one is?) we just need for figure out what job does the job best for us, and makes us happy.
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
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Don't forget that not all of thoes apps are free, and you don't get demos of stuff try make sure they work as advertised. I have friends that nickle and dime themselves too death due to the app store. I don't think the idea is bad idea by any means though.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
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iPhone users have been asking for thoes 2 functions for well over a year, and they all say...Its comming soon...for a year now. I'm guessing that Mr. Jobs doesnt want you to have it for some reason.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
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I won't dissagree with you on that. 6.1 was a bigger improvement that 5 to 6 was. Hopping that 6.5 will get the boost it very much needs. And don't ever forget that Touchflo 3D was HTCs way of hiding the windows interface, due to its seriously unfrendlyness. But also remember that iPhone was geared towards the casual Multi-media use, and the Fuze is aimed towards the average power user.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
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I will agree with that. But just like the arguement over PC vs mac, it's not a fair comparison. It needs to be Dell XPS vs Mac, or Toshiba Satalite vs Mac. There is no such thing as a PC (technicaly a Mac is a PC too...Personal Computer). And Apple has the unfair advantage of only writing software for papriatary hardware, where Microsoft has to write software for millions of combinations of hardware, and in the end it's all about drivers.
In the end, see what serves your needs best, but I do not think that the Fuze will drive anyone to be iPhone users. With the Fuzes lack of advertising, and the Apple's Mind numbing advetising, I think that people that look at the fuze as an option already have the mindset that the iPhone just will not do what they need.
In advance let me say thanks to everyone for having such a civil discussion. I am thoroughly impressed and appreciative. I was *sure* somebody would have come in with the raving and yelling attitude by now and I've happily been proven wrong. I REALLY appreciate that; flame wars got old and boring a loooong time ago IMHO
@Fatheadpi,
Thank you for the suggestion. At some point in the future I hope to get another fuze or perhaps its successor. Of course, by then I hope for WM7 and an actual answer to the ease of use features in iPhone (I'm still a PC guy at heart, I'd love to see Apple get ***** slapped at their own game). Suffice to say, unless AT&T cleans up its act (which I doubt, they never did do right by Wizard users and it was only XDA cookers who made that device be all that it could be) I am sure that the Fuze will continue to be a "Cooked ROMs only" device.
@JBlakk,
Wow, what a nice response . I won't go point by point, but I think you've made a lot of good points, and I agree with many. Hell, I still build my own PC's (I've only recently started using Vista though, and I mostly hate it so I turn off almost all the fancy crap).
Also I think you definitely have a point about the marketing aspect and who the fuze is (or at least ought to be) targeted toward. I'd make the argument though that if AT&T is targeting the "power user" they still missed the mark with the software by loading it will all that ridiculous bloat.
I like the appearance of TouchFlo3D, but man the performance is just sad, especially on such a high end piece of phone hardware. My biggest gripe is absolutely in the software execution, but I am, to reiterate again, quite confident that as the ROM's mature and the cookers get their heads around the nuances of the phone itself, we'll see some amazing performance from Fuze.
Thanks again guys! It's been loads of fun
Jason
I'll be civil...
I understand what you are saying, if you just want something that works 99.9% of the time the iPhone is the perfect phone for you. I however like to play with things and no how much I deny it I like finding problems and fixing them, and Microsoft's products are perfect for that. Also the open source-ness of M$ is another thing that draws me to their products.
I was worried, being an open Apple hater(I have nightmares about getting iPhones for Christmas...), that AT&T would not carry another phone with a touch screen after they signed the deal with Apple. The Touch Pro is/will be perfect for me in that sense. Apple is flashy and pretty, but extremely constrained in the sense that Apple likes to keep it's followers in a choke hold, but that's my opinion too.
I also like the keyboard of the Fuze/Touch Pro/Raphael(Why do they need so many names for the same device?!)
So in short I'm not going to flame you because you chose an Apple product over a M$ one, I honestly don't care as it's your money and your decision. I think the latest Touch Pro's are better than the first release models though...but that could be just speculation.
((Also the lack of cut/copy/paste is an EXTREME drawback for me))
I also went to the darkside (iPhone) after returning my fuze. I have said it in previous posts and to my co-workers that have both iPhones and WinMo devices - it. just. works.
Being an engineer/sys admin by trade I love to tinker and tweak and rip apart and put back together stuff, but in this case the effort it took to get the Fuze/TP to a usable state [for me] wasn't worth it. I am at the stage of my life where I don't have the time to play (7 mo. old will do that to ya).
I wouldn't kick a free or deeply discounted Fuze/TP out of bed, lol, but as many have said, it's what you want out of a device and I needed my device to work out of the box.
That said, so far so good. About 2 trouble-free weeks with the iP3G.
I still come here daily to keep up on the HTC WinMo happenings to satiate my tinker desire. But the iPhone is here to stay - or until WinMo 7 drops at least.
I bought my gtablet 2 weeks ago. I have 30 days to return the baby. Following are my questions.
1. I know lot of pundits are calling 2011 as the year of tablets. Did I jump the gun and bought it too early? gtab's spec was the reason for the buy.
2. Do you think in the future they will release firmware update to honeycomb since google doesn't recommend froyo for tablets?
3. lot of the current apps dont work.
4. you tube streaming is horrible.
5. last but not least the screen.
I appreciate the efforts of several guys on this forum for supporting the device. however I am still on the side line as far as introducing other roms on the device. so it limits my gtab to some extent.
Difficult question to answer since it ultimately depends on your expectations and personality. Viewsonic has (recently) been pretty good about releasing updates and working with the dev community here at XDA; that indicates that there is a possibility (not certainty) that they will continue to do so into the new year. The G-tablet's hardware will support Honeycomb, so it is reasonable to expect them to release an update IF Honeycomb is released within Q1 or Q2 of 2011.
If you are holding back on loading a rom, the question we need to know "why" before we can give you more meaningful advice. If you're holding off because you're considering returning the unit, that's one thing (and understandable). If, however, you are uncomfortable loading roms, that's another. All I can tell you is that the G-Tablet is a fantastic device with both VEGAn and TnTLite--much better and faster than stock TnT. I anticipate the XDA devs will probably actively develop/improve their roms for at least Q1 & Q2; probably longer if Honeycomb is released within that timeframe. We must acknowledge, however, that Viewsonic's recent updates are making strides into improving the user experience, so that remains an alternative. Bottom line: if you're willing to educate yourself on loading roms and doing the market fix, the G-Tablet is the best bargain out there currently.
As to some apps not working, some apps don't work on my HTC Evo either. The G-Tablet seems to run most apps very well. This is surprising since Froyo & Gingerbread apps aren't really designed for tablets. I see no reason to be alarmed regarding the G-Tablet's ability to run apps or play YouTube currently (which I have no problem with on TnTLite or VEGAn).
There will be better tablets released this year. For one thing, the G-Tablet's screen is poor quality when viewed at an angle. Also the front facing camera is mediocre at best. Other than those 2 issues, the hardware is very solid and will probably not be surpassed until Q3 of 2011.
no. do not keep it. i had one last week for two days (long enough to experience the latest update). its not great without the willingness to mod it by the end user.
today i bought a galaxy tab, and its exactly what i was hoping for when i bought the gtablet last week. sure, i now have a monthly data subscription, but only for the first 6 months (tmobile) and then i can drop it. and yes, i did spend more on the device... but maybe thats why the viewsonic product was so bad, because its an entry model device based on awful software and flimsy hardware (mine creaked).
the samsung has everything i was looking for... android market, swype, youtube, flash, etc. etc. etc... its just awesome.
dont wait too long to return. youll be sorry.
No one can answer that question for you, it is for you to decide. Not even the above poster's answer is valid - except for him and his experience. I also tried the Galaxy Tab and I hated it. Yes, much nicer screen, but the seven inch size was a no go for me. Everyone's needs and experience is different so don't do anything based on what someone here tells you to do.
If you feel up to mod'ing the G you can end up with a nicely functioning tablet, albeit with a screen that has a lousy viewing angle, but, on the other hand for a lot less money than other alternatives.
I am a total noob to Android and went to the irc chat room for the G and someone there walked me through the rom change. I now have a nice unit, runs smoothly, fairly fast and its doing what I need it to do. It still has a lousy screen viewing angle but I also have an extra few hundred bucks in my pocket that I didn't have to put out for a Galaxy that I didn't like.
Ultimately it has to be your decision. There are a number of people in here who are willing to help out if you want to take advantage of their help.
R
Take it back quickly. Get the Galaxy Tab......wait...didnt I just hear they are locking down the bootloader on it. No Gingerbread or Honeycomb unless Samsung lets you have it. So it has the the potential of being outdated already. But seriously, if your having 2nd thoughts about a purchase....RETURN IT!!!! It's your money. Why would anything we have to say have any bearing on your remorse.
If you're having buyers remorse already then I would say return it. Usually when someone asks a question like that they have issues or gripes with the device. This tablet has the hardware to be great and the software is catching up to it. There is a decent backing behind the product and that's a great thing. As for the screen users have been running tests with other screens to try and find an alternative.
For me I personally love modding my device to make it my own. If you're the type of person that wants a complete out of the box working tablet then I would return it.
I don't think any of the tabs out today has an advantage over the other. If ur gonna return the gtablet, don't get anything else that's out right now. I would just wait a few months. Or at least wait til the prices drop on the alternative tablets.
As other posters has said, u haven't seen the capabilities of this tablet without flashing a rom or modifying the stock ui.
Just to answer some of ur questions
No I don't think u bought it too early because tegra 2 tabs are gonna be expensive next yr albeit they will probably have better screens and camera. You just purchased a tablet with next years hottest cpu at a pretty fair price.
Yes, viewsonic has earned my trust that they will update this device. I also have the utmost confidence in our current devs to bring us faster roms.
All the apps I have works. If ur talking about the g sensor games then I would agree but that's not a lot of apps.
You tube streaming is super fast on my vegan tab. Other flash sites too! Especially justin tv. I have a wireless n router and when I stream from those sites no stutter at all.
And the screen...umm no comment lol.
Overall, I'm happy with my purchase and u should be too unless u got extra money to spend and/orthe patience to wait til next yr.
No....send it to me.
Thanks everyone. I am not new to android. Mt3g and currently vibrant. But never flashed a rom. So nervous. Things I like are hardware and no contract. On top of that I got it for 30% off. So really a bargain. But I offset it by buying extended warranty.
Called viewsonic cs but that number is not working. Tried 4 times, after the automated voice and 10 mins hold the call disconnects and it got me concerned.
nexusonemeover said:
the samsung has everything i was looking for... android market, swype, youtube, flash, etc. etc. etc... its just awesome.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Funny, I can say the same things about my GTablet. Granted, it's maybe 95%-98% of the Market, and I had to tinker with it, but I'm a big boy who likes to tinker.
Unfortunately, the devs here have taken away some of the fun by making it so easy to download and flash the rom.
But hey, glad you are enjoying your Galaxy Tab. And if you were so unhappy with your GTablet, stop trolling the GTablet forums.
-=Sent from my VS GTablet (VEGAn b4) using Tapatalk=-
popezaphod said:
Funny, I can say the same things about my GTablet. Granted, it's maybe 95%-98% of the Market, and I had to tinker with it, but I'm a big boy who likes to tinker.
Unfortunately, the devs here have taken away some of the fun by making it so easy to download and flash the rom.
But hey, glad you are enjoying your Galaxy Tab. And if you were so unhappy with your GTablet, stop trolling the GTablet forums.
-=Sent from my VS GTablet (VEGAn b4) using Tapatalk=-
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Click to collapse
ill rephrase for the sensitive folks... some people need (or want) the device to work out of the box, no changes required. the gtablet just isnt that device.
in an increasingly crowded marketplace where devices are getting better and better at launch, a device like the gtab takes a backseat for out of the box readiness. yes, you can mod till youre blue in the face and get it to do most of what others do from the get go, but having to mod to get it almost there is not optimal for every user.
and to the other deflating comment, i love XDA and i will troll whatever forums and whenever i wish... pardon me for posting an opinion in a public forum.
I was also worried I made a bad decision with my gtab purchase a week ago as well. I came in to an unexpected $400 and decided to treat myself to a gtablet. The day after I got it I flashed the vegan 3 rom. That fixed the "bad software" issue for sure. The my only concern was with the screen. But my worry was 2 fold: 1) viewing angles. 2) "fuzzy" graphics. I'm used to my Droid X having razor sharp fonts and graphics, which the gtab does not. Part of the problem is the screen quality which is related to the viewing angle. I think the bigger part has to do with resolution. The gtab resolution is 1024 x600 pixels @ 10.1" while the Droid X is 854 x 480 @ 4.3". Packing 66% of the pixels into 42% of the screen size helps make things sharper.
So I'm now at the point where I'll keep the gtab. I'm not 100% satisfied, but it's pretty damn good. Maybe there will be luck with finding a better LCD that can be dropped in. If next year a better tegra 2 tablet comes out, then I might just switch and sell my gtab on ebay. I won't get what I paid for it, but I'm hoping to get at least $250 for it. I would have gotten $130 worth of use out of it.
As for flashing a new rom; It is really easy to do with the proper instructions. I had not done any rom flashing since I have a droid x, and was kinda reluctant as well. But now I look back and realize there really wasn't anything to be nervous over. Most of the "caution, you may brick your device" warnings you read are similar to the medical wavers you sign that say "you might die" even though you are just getting some teeth pulled. Yes, it can happen. But most of the time everything works out fine.
I think you would need to be happy with it the way it is today to keep it. There are no guarantees that it will get any further updates from VS. In fact it really seems like a product that they had branded just for the holidays.
I'm still undecided about mine, but I suspect that once I see what comes out of CES, the gtablet will probably go back to Sears.
sam96_77 said:
I bought my gtablet 2 weeks ago. I have 30 days to return the baby. Following are my questions.
1. I know lot of pundits are calling 2011 as the year of tablets. Did I jump the gun and bought it too early? gtab's spec was the reason for the buy.
2. Do you think in the future they will release firmware update to honeycomb since google doesn't recommend froyo for tablets?
3. lot of the current apps dont work.
4. you tube streaming is horrible.
5. last but not least the screen.
I appreciate the efforts of several guys on this forum for supporting the device. however I am still on the side line as far as introducing other roms on the device. so it limits my gtab to some extent.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nexusonemeover said:
ill rephrase for the sensitive folks... some people need (or want) the device to work out of the box, no changes required. the gtablet just isnt that device.
in an increasingly crowded marketplace where devices are getting better and better at launch, a device like the gtab takes a backseat for out of the box readiness. yes, you can mod till youre blue in the face and get it to do most of what others do from the get go, but having to mod to get it almost there is not optimal for every user.
and to the other deflating comment, i love XDA and i will troll whatever forums and whenever i wish... pardon me for posting an opinion in a public forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sam, I agree with the people who've said that noone can tell you. As someone who prefers not to mod myself, I am right there with you in feeling out the insecurities of dropping a chunk of change on something that may or may not be faulty in relation to actual hardware or that's shaky in terms of future software releases and support. The thing is, in a case like this, we're all early adopters here....and the problem with cookie cutter devices like the G Tablet (cookie cutter meaning the same base hardware as a plethora of devices coming soon) is that it really doesn't get a whole lot of respect in terms of software from the people that sell it because at the end of the the day, they're in it for the money like all companies are but more so they're not all about loyalty or trying to keep customers. If they can get you to keep your device for 30 days - that's money in their pocket no matter what.
That is the raw, real truth of the matter. I have certainly had my own ups and downs with it but unless there's a DEEP hardware issue - I'm not seeing a reason to return mine. If you REALLY don't want to mess around with ROMs and 3389 (newest OTA) isn't satisfactory for you, then I'd say return it. Something faster and better will always be on the horizon, and if you keep returning or waiting for the next best thing, you end up with nothing. And we'll always have buyers remorse, believe me...there's always a reason to return a buy.
At this point, we have no guarantees that Viewsonic will support it beyond Froyo. They have never claimed, nor said they would and when it comes to devices like this. That's a cold hard fact. They're dabbling in the tablet waters, and if it doesn't 'work out' for them they could just decide to call it quits in terms of releasing updates and supporting it. Even if they do decide to go ahead and jump into the market, when they release new equipment we don't really have anyone at viewsonic saying "don't worry, your tablet will be upgraded for as long as it can be". We just have to hope and have faith.
I would say, if you really don't want to nor see yourself modding your tablet. Even in the lightest, then maybe it isn't the device for you. Get an iPad...where you know Apple has a vested interest and will release updates for it as long as it can be updated. But if you see yourself dabbling, even a little bit (it really is pretty easy and for the most part safe), then I believe 100% that this tablet is going to be a powerhouse next year when honeycomb hits (barring any unforeseen internal hardware faults currently).
To Nexus, you've made a point in that the Galaxy Tab IS indeed a great device and workable right out of the box but there are pretty big differences which make them very different. I also think that yes, it is preferable to the G Tablet for people who want that out of the box usefulness. But is the Galaxy Tab a value, I really don't think so. Quite simply, you're paying a lot more for a lot less.
Kind of like buying a VW Bug with great insides vs. a VW Touareg with some glitchy insides (that are quite possibly fixable in the near future).
For one, the Galaxy Tab is single core - meaning right now what you see is what you get. The G Tablet will have new doors opened when Honeycomb allows the second core to be utilized synchronously (I think? and hope). The Galaxy Tab is a 7inch device which by all means is a big difference than the 10inch G Tablet. I have used 7inch devices and they feel like really big phones. Still quite usable and maybe even preferable by some, but not all. The G Tablet feels like flat computer in comparison and the bigger screen is obviously noticeable. The Galaxy Tab is $200 more than the G Tablet without a contract. It is $350 with a contract, but you must have data on the account for, you say 6 months, right? That's still a minimum of $530. Is the G Tablet perfect, no way. But by all means it's great hardware with great potential for a value price right now. The Galaxy Tab on the other hand, is a great out of the box experience fit for anyone out there, but lacking the power and potential of the G Tablet - better screen? sure...but not necessarily a better buy.
Coming from owning a Vibrant, maybe I'm a little biased, but I wouldn't be too sure Samsung will be paying attention to the Tab for too long into next year, especially when the new hotness the Galaxy Tab 2 is released....and all this talk about locking bootloaders etc. I dunno. I feel better that even if VS takes a dump and refocuses elsewhere, at least the devs here will be taking care of us for a while.
^^^ Very insightful reply. And, you made some good points I had not considered.
Sent from my SGH-T849 using XDA App
sam96_77 said:
Thanks everyone. I am not new to android. Mt3g and currently vibrant. But never flashed a rom. So nervous. Things I like are hardware and no contract. On top of that I got it for 30% off. So really a bargain. But I offset it by buying extended warranty.
Called viewsonic cs but that number is not working. Tried 4 times, after the automated voice and 10 mins hold the call disconnects and it got me concerned.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
30% off!!!! U lucky son of a gun haha. Well that makes the gtab a great buy. I'm jealous.
I was disapointed until Loaded Vegan and did the calibaration fix,also practically bricked it and had to load ubuntu linux cuz windows driver would not work but now i am very happy this thing is so fast!
And mind you the software is not optimized for Dual core processor.
Definately not for the none tech inclined.But if you are willing to root and want a solid Android device this is it!
I could get a galaxy tab but why would i pay for internet i can tether off my evo for free.
Sent from my VEGAn-TAB-v1.0.0b4
I will try the simple answer. Keep it.
If you dont want it, ill take it for $250. Wont pay $400 for it from Sears and all the "refurbished" ones on Sears Outlet @ $279 are no where close to me and they dont ship.
nexusonemeover said:
ill rephrase for the sensitive folks... some people need (or want) the device to work out of the box, no changes required. the gtablet just isnt that device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Completely agree with you. The Galaxy Tab is, in fact, the closest thing to an Android tablet that works out of the box.
Anyone buying an Android tablet before June 2011 is basically an early adopter. If you want something that Just Works(tm), your best bet is to go the premium route and get a Galaxy Tab. If you don't have the money and don't want a service contract, you're going to have to do some hacking in some way, shape or form to get things working.
And yeah, I can be a crabby ***** sometimes.
Like I'm sure many of you did, I read a TON of reviews before buying the Infinity. I mean I read and re-read almost every english site out there that had gotten their hands on a pre-release version a month or so before the device came out (and videos too!). All of these glowing reviews seemed to reassure me that I was making the right decision and amped up my excitement and expectations. But when I got the tablet I was really disappointed about the speed, stuttering, and lagging both while browsing and the device itself. I've upgraded to .26 and have been VERY happy with it since. I'm not complaining about the device or asking how to make it better. I love my tablet and can't wait to rock some custom roms!
My point is that everyone here noticed the problems almost immediately after opening the box. Lately I've been thinking about the inconsistency between the reviews and the initial release of the product and was wondering if anyone else noticed this and is now either more skeptical of review sites, or (especially after some of the debacles with Asus Device Tracker, the Unlock Tool Serial Issue, etc) if there is more going on behind the scenes with Asus.
I remember reading reviews for Motherboards a few years ago and while ASUS has always been one of the top players it seems that other entrants are doing just as good if not better. Other users were noticing the same trend in innovation and frankly quality. I applaud Asus for venturing out into new product lines, but I get this nagging feeling that they're really not doing the best they can and I'm surprised no reviewer called them out on it. I used to be a huge brand champion for them, but I might be slowly losing it....
Just something I've been thinking about and decided to share.
I know exactly how you feel. I have noticed absolutely raving reviews for hardware that was less than overwhelming out of the box before, but the past few year, the number of times I've noticed significant discrepancies between the reviews and the actual buyer's user experience far more often, it seems.
I'd imagine that either the manufacturer is buying off the reviewer (I know several hardware companies only make their products available for review on the explicit notice that only positive aspects are to be referenced, or that the review overall must at least be positive), or that they send off devices that have been pulled inside out by the engineers and have been tweaked to hell (and back), even as far as swapping out components. This isn't so hard to do when you haven't even settled on an actual end-product design.
I know that there's alsways a negative bias on the user forums (like XDA, for example), but the positive review bias is putting me off even more.
Excellent thread.
I wonder about this too, take the Prime...that device was virtually broken out of the box. How could any reviewer not mention the constant ANRs with the web browsing, slowness when installing anything and broken bluetooth?
My Infinity has been great right out of the box. So, no, it doesn't have any impact on my perspective since most of the reviews are in-line with my experience.
The Prime is altogether different, though. It had some clear problems that were broken at the hardware level, so it seemed like someone should have called it out much more quickly.
I would expect the manufacturer to more closely QA a unit they knew was going to be a hardware review unit, so minor flaws that are due to poor QA (a dead pixel/light bleed/etc) I would NOT expect to be called out by most reviewers. But a design defect as glaring and fundamental as WiFi and GPS iisues the Prime had? Not so much.
I expressed the same thoughts back in February with respect to the original prime:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=22396949&postcount=7
Good thread!
The reviews for me add a lot of confusion as I'm sure happens to most.
As a long time home PC builder I got mad at Asus years back because of
some serious issues with their motherboards. So I've always just stepped
over the brand until recently. Asus seems to have changed or maybe it's
just hardware advancements that have become common.
We have a couple of other tablets and I've always thought they we're a hassle
to use in most cases. I've wanted a 10.1 tablet for a couple of years, yet wanted
to wait for some vast hardware improvement. That's where the TF700 comes into play.
I bought this thing for the inside first, quality second, reviews third Asus name last.
I dunno what will happen maybe Android 4.1 will give all the tablets wings...
Thats OK said:
The reviews for me add a lot of confusion as I'm sure happens to most.
As a long time home PC builder I got mad at Asus years back because of
some serious issues with their motherboards. So I've always just stepped
over the brand until recently. Asus seems to have changed or maybe it's
just hardware advancements that have become common.
We have a couple of other tablets and I've always thought they we're a hassle
to use in most cases. I've wanted a 10.1 tablet for a couple of years, yet wanted
to wait for some vast hardware improvement. That's where the TF700 comes into play.
I bought this thing for the inside first, quality second, reviews third Asus name last.
I dunno what will happen maybe Android 4.1 will give all the tablets wings...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That won't happen until CM18 - Redbull
But you hit on exactly what I was getting at with the motherboards. Innovation and quality are not always the same thing. I ended up with a Gigabyte board and was very happy btw.
To be honest I think that consumers in general are ok with sub-par build quality though. As long as something works and isn't absolutely terrible most people are cool with it. Basically as consumers we allow companies to get away with it because we still buy the products. It's a vicious cycle.
To be honest I think that consumers in general are ok with sub-par build quality though. As long as something works and isn't absolutely terrible most people are cool with it. Basically as consumers we allow companies to get away with it because we still buy the products. It's a vicious cycle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also think that consumers (Americans in particular, myself included) tend to be incredibly price conscious and this has been further exacerbated by both the world economy and the pace of technology. So, the past decade or so, this has really accelerated.
As you note, nowadays, poor build quality is not preferred but it is highly tolerated... probably because the item was viewed as a "good deal" and we know we're just going to buy a new one and literally scrap the old one in just a year or two. We are not buying things with the intent to keep them for years or call a "repairman" if they break, like people did with TV sets in the 50s and 60s.
I have a Moto Droid 1 that was just released from it's 2 year contract in Jan and I've known people who have upgraded phones four or five times since I've owned mine. It's nuts. I'm finally going to replace it because the volume button broke but I found myself half wishing it wasn't so sturdy when I see everyone with their shiny new phones. It's hard not to fall into the rampant consumerism that helps fuel this negative quality trend.
wolfman87 said:
That won't happen until CM18 - Redbull
But you hit on exactly what I was getting at with the motherboards. Innovation and quality are not always the same thing. I ended up with a Gigabyte board and was very happy btw.
To be honest I think that consumers in general are ok with sub-par build quality though. As long as something works and isn't absolutely terrible most people are cool with it. Basically as consumers we allow companies to get away with it because we still buy the products. It's a vicious cycle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Chuckle OL
"CM18 Redbull"
You may have actually tagged a future version!
Gadget reviews on the Internet are on the whole quite poor. There are a lot of factors that most users here could add to.
- they're all tied into an endless consumer release cycle that has to gear up every few months or year depending on the vendor. In that sense they're part of a big ball of constant marketing, hype and desire that people and places like here feed into (I'm guilty!)
- the explosion of 24hr tech coverage on the Internet has all these gadget sites competing for page views, advertising and even access from the very companies they're assessing.
- the gadget "journalists" are constantly switching to new devices, never living with it before they are pressured to judge it for an article that will likely never be updated but always searchable on the net. How many tablet reviews have you seen where someone is paging through home pages as they state how fast or slow a device is? Useless.
-it's true you see more negatives on XDA as far as quality control, but you also see more unfounded hype for new or unreleased devices because people want the next new thing or to feel like their emotional or financial purchase is worthwhile. I trust net reviewers when they uniformly say a device is mediocre (ie Note 10.1) because you know it had to be bad if it sucked in the brief amount of time they gave it. I don't trust their praise until I know for myself it's decent (Nexus 7, Infinity) because there are all sorts of issues they won't be around to see (Prime).