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What does everyone think will happen with future revisions of Android in regards to the fork between the stock G1s with OTA updates and the hacked G1s with manual updates with the test keys?
Hopefully this doesn't turn into Sony's militant locking down of the PSP via every firmware upgrade. Even though I never owned a PSP, I thought it was absolutely insane that Sony would try so hard to keep people from using their purchased equipment in any way they wanted to.
I totally understand that Google had to release RC30 to shut down a GIGANTIC security exploit that could have (but not likely) been used compromise phones. I'm sure it's in their interest to keep a homogeneous G1 userbase but would they actively try to relock rooted phones?
I'm hoping they just leave the rooted G1s alone. Mostly because we bought the phones and they are OURS. We are obligated to stay with Tmobile until the contract is up because the price is subsidized but we are not obligated (in my opinion) to retain the software they were shipped with. Obviously if my phone has a software problem I won't be calling Tmobile. On the other hand, if there is a hardware defect I'm certainly reflashing RC30 and sending it back under warranty.
I would like to hear everyone's opinion. I think it was great that Tmobile UK was good enough to open a dialog about possibly allowing root access but I don't think they really understand what "root access" is or care as long as they sell phones under contract. I don't think Google really cares either since they have open sourced all of the OS that we are modifying which is in the spirit of Open Source Software anyway. I think as long as they get their marketshare, they will be happy.
I dont think so first off the psp hackers down load games so the dont have to pay for them they lose millions each year on the hackers...next i dont thnk that google would do this but t-moble might.But in my opinion i think they will as soon as they start hacking the pay apps. that will start later this year.
HOGWILD said:
I dont think so first off the psp hackers down load games so the dont have to pay for them they lose millions each year on the hackers
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Hogwild hit the nail right on the head. I don't think T-Mo/HTC will engage in a drawn out battle to "steal" back root simply because there is no real financial motivation to do so. I'm of the mind that it's best not to begin speculating unless one of the aforementioned company takes a step in that direction. There's no point whipping up another possible flame-war over something that might never happen.
Ya I agree they are our phones 1 thing you left out not everybody is under contract some ppl paid full price on a prepaid 90 service plan then they get their unlock code. Some people didn't qualify for the upgrade price of 179$ and some people are under contract eiither of all three it is owned by the user the day they signed or paid. Tmobile won't take back a used g1 for failure to honor the 2 year agreement they will bill the customer.
So the whole open source push... and market. There and hundreds of. Thousands of programmers who make programs for the love of advancing "things" look how popular sourceforge is. So you get people who will create a program and demand a nominal fee say 14.95 the dev only gets 70% of the price and the wireless carrier get 30% for nothing. I . Defently there being an underground "market place" that bypasses that standard one to allow people to download free apps. The most exciting thing that everyone is about the market being a paid app is stopping all the comments of the retarded people in the market place
My 2 cents
diabolical28 said:
The most exciting thing that everyone is about the market being a paid app is stopping all the comments of the retarded people in the market place
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There are a lot of idiots in the world with money to waste. Rest assured, the paid apps will have retarded comments as well.
qft
rabble:rabble
Wow I hate people that don't know what they talking bout. I wanna clear up a few thing. Being a psp dev I can tell you it wasn't bout the hacking and homebrew. the psp updates were to stop piracy. Btw most exploit on psp were by sony. If you own a psp atlease you would know a little about the scene. Secondly, the root bug is dangerous to us. Google own dev are helping us htc people are leaking tools and t-mobile always let us screw them over. So no it not gonna be no war going on it all for our safety untill the software is right. As you can see we're like test bunnys and when a bug you should be greatful that they release update. So while I love having root access it not that serious right now it just would be right to compare this to the iphone jailbreak scene. Once paid app are here I wouldn't be shock if update start coming to block test key and resigning to respect developer work. Read before posting and short answer no unless as needed
There's not going to be a homogenous Android ecosystem to begin with because each carrier will tailor it to their own needs, and possibly to each handset.
danguyf said:
There's not going to be a homogenous Android ecosystem to begin with because each carrier will tailor it to their own needs, and possibly to each handset.
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Correct. And you can bet that there will be handsets running builds of Android not maintained by Google which will not run Android Market. Whatever carrier releases it will want to funnel that 30% revenue to themselves. I'm concerned that that fracturing of the ecosystem will impede overall market acceptance. And i'm not even talking about the inevitable outcome of Android "strains" that slowly become sdk incompatible with each other.
Here's a posting I made on android-platform and Dianne Hackborn's response:
Right, I'm thinking along the device manufacturer side of things. As
an imperfect analogy, is the Android team okay with manufacturers
producing their own Android builds which may be slightly incompatible
with each other (a la Symbian's various flavors), or will all
manufacturers be encouraged/required to adhere to some technical
requirements checklists in order to brand their phone as Android-
powered? (more like say Windows Mobile).
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We won't, this is something we will be actively discouraging (or from a
positive perspective, doing whatever we can to encourage android devices
to be compatible).
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Of course with an open source project "actively discouraging" can only go so far...
jashsu said:
Whatever carrier releases it will want to funnel that 30% revenue to themselves.
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The carriers already get that 30%.
From the android dev blog
"Starting in early Q1, developers will also be able to distribute paid apps in addition to free apps. Developers will get 70% of the revenue from each purchase; the remaining amount goes to carriers and billing settlement fees—Google does not take a percentage. We believe this revenue model creates a fair and positive experience for users, developers, and carriers."
From what I've heard from Google folks, they aren't that interested in the root thing, that is more a carrier issue. However, the way people originally got root was a serious issue. Not directly because you could get root, but because it was an outright silly bug than could potentially raise havoc on your device if you happened to type the wrong thing on your keyboard.
JesusFreke said:
The carriers already get that 30%.
From the android dev blog
"Starting in early Q1, developers will also be able to distribute paid apps in addition to free apps. Developers will get 70% of the revenue from each purchase; the remaining amount goes to carriers and billing settlement fees—Google does not take a percentage. We believe this revenue model creates a fair and positive experience for users, developers, and carriers."
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I imagine the billing settlement fees could be rather sizeable. I don't run a credit card processing company, but i've seen $.20 - $.30 per transaction thrown around. That's in line with Paypal's fees.
We'll see if other manufacturer/carrier matchups continue to use Android Market. I wouldn't be surprised to see them create their own markets though, simply because if it's possible and there's the slightest financial incentive to do so, eventually someone will do it.
I was in the PSP scene for a long time, admin at one of the largest PSP sites, net admin on the largest PSP IRC server, and had several contacts within Sony's Playstation department. So I know how the scene went pretty well.
Sony did not want homebrew for multiple reasons. The obvious one is ISO playback. No matter what they did, warez was possible. Even back before we had perfected the actual emulation, we could simply patch calls to disc0:/ to ms0:/ and load the EBOOT. If we hadn't figured out how (the first one to truly do it was UMD Emulator, which would patch many of the PSP calls to make it MUCH smoother/more compatible), we could simply expand on this.
The second reason is that we were stepping on their toes, so to speak. They wanted to have many more downloadable minigames that could be booted off of the memstick, something we did years before them. I doubt they liked that we were doing what they planned, and doing it much better/faster.
Thirdly, they were responsible for all bricked devices. Although their unbricking process has always been easy, it costs them time/shipping. It's still a pain and costly for them to do it massively.
This is why they combated it on the PSP so much. On the standard Playstations, they've never had to worry about it this much. They didn't have memory cards that you could easily throw ISOs on, they didn't have any easily loaded software that would allow you to boot them, etc. You had to buy hardware devices (hdloader, the swap program (ffs can't remember the name), or modchips). Pirating the PSP was SO much easier.
Now, onto the G1... a Google employee has already (off the record, speaking for himself, not Google) that they should have just given us root access, especially if HTC was going to be so careless with their NBH images.
If every one was given root access, cracking paid applications would be much easier. Well, that is the belief. In reality, cracking them will be a sinch. With easily done byte code modification, and resigning the APK, I doubt there's an application that CAN'T be cracked. As long as you could install apps from browser/SD card, you can crack them. Even if they locked it down to market only, we could spoof DNS servers and run "unofficial" markets with cracked applications. This wouldn't require root access at all.
(excuse any typos, it's 10F outside atm and I'm trying to smoke.)
Gary13579 said:
I was in the PSP scene for a long time, admin at one of the largest PSP sites, net admin on the largest PSP IRC server, and had several contacts within Sony's Playstation department. So I know how the scene went pretty well.
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I know you, your from www.psp-hacks.com huh Dash Hacks Network is my only source lol hey didn't you recently do some homebrew app i remember seeing something bout you on qj. lol your coding for g1 now? maybe a nice irc for g1?
aron4588 said:
I know you, your from www.psp-hacks.com huh Dash Hacks Network is my only source lol hey didn't you recently do some homebrew app i remember seeing something bout you on qj. lol your coding for g1 now? maybe a nice irc for g1?
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The last time I used my PSP was a year ago, as a flash drive so I could reformat my computer. I haven't actually *used* it in years, so anything you saw on QJ wasn't about the real Gary .
But yes that's me, and I was an admin at Dash Hacks.
aron4588 said:
I know you, your from www.psp-hacks.com huh Dash Hacks Network is my only source lol hey didn't you recently do some homebrew app i remember seeing something bout you on qj. lol your coding for g1 now? maybe a nice irc for g1?
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Yes please a "full irc client would be nice." there is a "irc client" if you can call it that in the market called Firc it is a neat program then you come to figure out the dev is running the only channel it can join as ops and Perm bans any user not on a G1. Also at his discretion. Seems to much like a plug to me soon enough he will add an ADbot you watch and people with accidently click the hell out of the ad links .
diabolical28 said:
Yes please a "full irc client would be nice." there is a "irc client" if you can call it that in the market called Firc it is a neat program then you come to figure out the dev is running the only channel it can join as ops and Perm bans any user not on a G1. Also at his discretion. Seems to much like a plug to me soon enough he will add an ADbot you watch and people with accidently click the hell out of the ad links .
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Lol what? fIRC lets you connect to any server and any channel.
diabolical28 said:
Yes please a "full irc client would be nice." there is a "irc client" if you can call it that in the market called Firc it is a neat program then you come to figure out the dev is running the only channel it can join as ops and Perm bans any user not on a G1. Also at his discretion. Seems to much like a plug to me soon enough he will add an ADbot you watch and people with accidently click the hell out of the ad links .
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http://code.google.com/p/androidirc/
The current state..
The last few days have been difficult. What has become clear now is that the Android Open Source Project is a framework. It’s licensed in such a way so that anyone can take it, modify it to their needs, and redistribute it as they please. Android belongs to everyone. This also means that big companies likes Google, HTC, Motorola, and whomever else can add their own pieces to it and share these pieces under whatever license they choose.
I’ve made lots of changes myself to the AOSP code, and added in code from lots of others. Building a better Droid, right?
The issue that’s raised is the redistribution of Google’s proprietary applications like Maps, GTalk, Market, and YouTube. These are not part of the open source project and are only part of “Google Experience” devices. They are Google’s intellectual property and I intend to respect that. I will no longer be distributing these applications as part of CyanogenMod. But it’s OK. None of the go-fast stuff that I do involves any of this stuff anyway. We need these applications though, because we all rely so heavily on their functionality. I’d love for Google to hand over the keys to the kingdom and let us all have it for free, but that’s not going to happen. And who can blame them?
There are lots of things we can do as end-users and modders, though, without violating anyones rights. Most importantly, we are entitled to back up our software. Since I don’t work with any of these closed source applications directly, what I intend to do is simply ship the next version of CyanogenMod as a “bare bones” ROM. You’ll be able to make calls, MMS, take photos, etc. In order to get our beloved Google sync and applications back, you’ll need to make a backup first. I’m working on an application that will do this for you.
The idea is that you’ll be able to Google-ify your CyanogenMod installation, with the applications and files that shipped on YOUR device already. Or, you can just use the basic ROM if you want. It will be perfectly functional if you don’t use the Google parts. I will include an alternative app store (SlideMe, or AndAppStore, not decided yet) with the basic ROM so that you can get your applications in case you don’t have a Google Experience device.
I’ll have more updates soon as I get all the code hammered out.
Thanks for all the support thru all of this.
http://www.cyanogenmod.com/home/the-current-state
The stuff Dreams are really made of....
I knew! Where there's a will there's a way! You can't keep a real boss down! Cyanogen I look forward to playing with this new stuff in the works. Rage on brother rage on, I for one honestly didn't want to leave android really, but I will continue to research back-up plans in case Google has anymore monkey wrenches laying around itching to be thrown...Good luck Cyanogen. We all owe you donations...real recognizes real! Dueces
This is great news Thank you!
fkn awesome!
this exactly what i thought and hoped would happen. everyone got in a tizy over nothing. so we have to back up before we flash which is just another way that the basic moder like myself can better understand the phone.
Does this means we need to wipe every time we flash a new rom?
tomvleeuwen said:
What do you guys think of sharing the 4.0.4 version over p2p networks?
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Everyone already has it.
Great
This sounds good, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I think they got upset when the new market app was released before they could get it out. They had to do something, but I think it will die down.
don't go there
tomvleeuwen said:
What do you guys think of sharing the 4.0.4 version over p2p networks?
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Cyanogen is doing his best to respect Google's legitimate copyrights, so suggesting that XDA get involved in distributing proprietary applications without a license only serves to undermine what is going on here. Mods: please remove.
ei8htohms said:
Cyanogen is doing his best to respect Google's legitimate copyrights, so suggesting that XDA get involved in distributing proprietary applications without a license only serves to undermine what is going on here. Mods: please remove.
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I posted this in another thread but it would seem to be pertinent to here too:
Loccy said:
Let's face it, strictly speaking, all ROMs are warez.
Personally I'm surprised that it wasn't the Hero devs who got into trouble first, but this was all just a matter of time. I never understood the bizarre fixation that cropped up recently with QuickOffice and everyone going "omfg it's warez can't include it in romz!!!111!1one!". Why QuickOffice and not, say HTC_IME, or Work Email, or any number of other binary blobs that ROM cookers include as a matter of course now that have been "acquired" from non-orthodox source?
The Hero ROMs, let's face it, give people a means of "turning" their old phone into the latest and greatest HTC device. Each stable Hero ROM on the Dream/Magic potentially means a Hero device purchase lost. HTC are being far more hit in the pocket than Google are here - which is why I'm surprised the cease and desist wasn't directed at them.
I do think, however, this site and the people who run it are going to have to pick a side at some point. Either the position is "this is a site for developers, and as long as copyrighted material is not hosted on here in a fashion that would make us liable*, we will not suppress the work of individual devs". Or, their position is "no copyrighted material in any form, be that in the form to links to offsite storage repositories (eg. Rapidshare), or any other method". XDA doesn't *need* to do this in order to ensure the site does not get into legal hot water. I suspect they *might* do it, however, as some kind of misguided moral stance (and in my view the QuickOffice preoccupation was an example of just this). But in my opinion if they choose the latter then XDA is over as a site for realistic Android ROM development (and indeed, Windows Mobile and other OSes, if they apply the same standards across all their boards).
* elaborating on what I mean here - if people attach zips directly to their posts, and those zips are stored on the XDA servers, then XDA as a site is potentially liable. Alternatively, if instead people give a URL or a search string whereby people can find a ROM, but those files are not physically stored on XDA, they are not - any more than Google is liable for the many copyrighted MP3s you can find links to via their search engine.
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The bottom line is that if ROM devs decided they were going to respect ALL legitimate copyrights, there'd be no Hero ROMs, no Windows Mobile ROMs, in fact no ROMs apart from barebones AOSP ROMs which do less than a stock ROM.
ei8htohms said:
Mods: please remove.
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And I'm sorry, that's just ignorant. Just because you don't agree with a sentiment doesn't entitle you to demand the mods remove it. If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
kudos to cyanogen!
Loccy said:
If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
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I think common U.S. practice is: if you speak freely, you get called names by people until you either cry or shoot them, thus proving to everyone that your original point is invalid.
But XDA has always had a policy of "if it doesn't get the site admins in trouble, it's probably ok." If memory serves, the site is in the Netherlands, and is subject to EU laws as to copyright, etc. I think that's important to remember when it comes to such things, since the EU laws as to intellectual property are in flux and not quite the same as those in the US or UK.
But the official policy is available in one of the toplevel forums here:
Flar said:
Hi Everybody,
We noticed that there is some confusion when it comes to posting sensitive material on xda-developers.com and mostly about what can and can't be posted.
We would like to clarify our point of view through this post.
Since the start of xda-developers this has always been a site that once in while has some sensitive material online, through the years this site has grown so big it's no longer possible to check every file on our servers or every post on the board, we also feel it wouldn't benefit the community if we did.
However with increased popularity comes an increased amount of legal complaints when sensitive material is found on our servers. Which is the reason why we have been more careful lately. Recently some sensitive material has shown up on the servers and we received legal complaints from companies who have the copyrights for this material, although we all feel this is very interesting and valuable material we cannot risk the future of xda-developers by ignoring the legal requests we receive, therefore this material has been taken offline.
We understand that maintaining the balance between legal and illegal is sometimes confusing and/or difficult but that is unfortunately how it works.
When it comes to posting sensitive material there are a couple suggestions we can make:
- if possible do not post the files on the xda-developers servers.
- use your common sense (if you feel something might not be legal it probably isn't).
- always keep in mind when posting software of any kind, that we will take it offline if there is a legal complaint from the copyright owner.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
I hope this post will serve as a clear and valuable guideline.
Greetz,
Flar
Site admin.
P.s. When you have any questions you can always contact me or one of the moderators.
Last edited by Flar; 17th January 2007 at 10:14 AM..
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Everyone has an opinion, and they have, or should have, the right to decide for themselves what is correct. I am on the side of Cyanogen. I do not think what he did caused any harm or loss of revenue to anyone. We can not always have our way though, and I think that's the case here. I don't know him, but I do think he's smart enough to keep doing what he is EXTREMELY good at without putting himself in a bad position. It's just a stumbling block to get past. We are puting a lot of effort into pointing fingers and throwing around ideas, but if we placed this much energy into finding a fuctional solution, we might get past it a whole buch faster. A good army fights the war, not the battle.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
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But every single ROM on here is warez to some extent or another! Certainly (just for example, I'm not picking on anyone specific here) Drizzy doesn't own the IPR for the contents of his Hero ROMs. I'm pretty sure the WinMo ROMs aren't being posted by Microsoft. If the policy is that "warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery", they're not doing much of a job, are they - every other post is "warez", if you take a strict interpretation.
I suppose I'm saying that "warez is in the eye of the beholder". I fully endorse the attitude "if it doesn't get the site admins in trouble, it's probably ok" - but I can't help thinking that relaxed attitude has been firmed up of late for whatever reason, given the QuickOffice oddness. I'm pretty sure no-one who own the IPR for QuickOffice was ever in touch (although do correct me if I'm wrong), so why the odd fixation recently?
Bottom line: stick to the attitudes and approaches that have made this site what it is, please don't start getting over zealous when there's no reason to.
Honestly did this need another topic though? I mean I'm all for good news like this, but add it on to one of the many topics that are out there. -.- (ready for flaming)
easy now
Loccy said:
The bottom line is that if ROM devs decided they were going to respect ALL legitimate copyrights, there'd be no Hero ROMs, no Windows Mobile ROMs, in fact no ROMs apart from barebones AOSP ROMs which do less than a stock ROM.
And I'm sorry, that's just ignorant. Just because you don't agree with a sentiment doesn't entitle you to demand the mods remove it. If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
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First off, I'm not demanding anything. I politely requested that the mods remove a suggestion that clearly seeks to circumvent the policies of XDA: We won't distribute warez. The poster knew the suggestion was specifically aimed at getting around the XDA policy, otherwise there would be no reason for a P2P distribution alternative in the first place.
A key component of intellectual property and copyright laws (at least in the US) is that the holder of the copyright must act to defend the copyright to some reasonable extent (no, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what this entails exactly). Now that Google has acted to defend their copyrights in these instances, the line is clear. Google apps are paid apps (licensed to the handset manufacturers or service providers) and are not free to distribute without a license. Consequently, there shouldn't be much further debate about the fact that these are warez and are not to be distributed on or through XDA.
I'm not trying to attack anyone (the original poster, ROM devs or certainly yourself), but I am interested in XDA maintaining the high ground here and continuing to operate in a respectful and respectable manner.
Perhaps we should stay on topic?
te5ter said:
Perhaps we should stay on topic?
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Fair point. Maybe we should take the "warez is in the eye of the beholder" debate to this thread. I do actually think it's a fascinating debate, personally. Oh, incidentally, just re-read my earlier post, and want to apologise to ei8htohms - I didn't mean to come off quite so brusque.
First, I'm very happy that there seems to be a workaround that Cyanogen feels comfortable in using.
However, I see it as a band-aid to a much larger problem. Yes, it addresses those few apps that Google specifically mentioned. But there seems to be potential future conflicts that could adversely affect this whole Android community.
What about all the other apps in there? The Camera/Camcorder/Gallery app for instance. The UI? Other HTC bits? And the biggie, the Search component? Does Google also lay claim to unified search, the widget, the particular framework involved in that?
I don't know the answer to that, I'm just asking. So much is left unanswered, I just feel this is only the beginning. For now, I guess it may be enough. But it still leaves so much up in the air.
Now the 2nd major issue: Cyanogen should be commended for taking the high road here and doing his best to adhere to Google's current request. I think we all know that there was never ever any question that no one saw this coming. It came from left field and shocked everyone beyond belief.
But will other rom devs be as diligent as Cyanogen? Will theme developers adhere to this? And with all of these added steps required to get a functioning "Google Experience", consider the flood of newbie questions this forum is about to endure. We all thought "brick" and "hardspl" questions were tedious at best ... prepare yourselves for the onslought of mass confusion. That fun has just begun.
I still believe the burden lies with Google to make this right. I'm not saying they should make their apps open source by any means. I'm just saying that there must be a way for Google to allow the inclusion of their apps (perhaps a different license or maybe some encryption trick that protects the apps from modification <I don't know, I'm not that smart>). Google needs to step up to the plate in this. They also need to save-face and stifle this PR nightmare. Android does not need this, Google does not need this, HTC does not need this, carriers do not need this, Cyanogen does not need this, and users do not need this. Growth of the entire Android project is simply too important. I see this as speed bump. They just made the bump too big and it needs to be shaved down some so everyone can get it over without damaging anything else.
this is great news indeed. can't wait to see what is to come!
Just saw a series of tweets from @P3Droid saying they're looking for a soft-bricked D2G or Pro to test SBF files on. He said he's in the Phoenix area so do yourself and everyone else a favor if you've got a phone to send him and get that sucker fixed!
Edit: At 11:30 p.m. EST on 1/2/2011, @P3Droid tweeted that they will be publicly releasing the SBF files for both the D2G and Pro within the next 12 hours. I'll post a link to their posting once it's up. Note that they caution you to grab the stuff ASAP as it will likely be taken down by Moto via C&D (not that there won't be plenty of mirrors after that)
Edit2: It looks like links are up on Team Black Hat's forum. I assume since this is now for free there is no issue linking to their forum but if anyone better versed than I in the rules disagrees, please say so and I'll take the link down.
http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/...id-2-global-sbf-file-2-4-29-full-rsdlite.html
Again, thanks to Team Black Hat for the great work they do and for the decision to rapidly release this SBF publicly. Hopefully the short window between it being kept exclusive to their app and the public release will not deter folks from supporting the cause.
bout time. This will really get the modding community going for the global finally. Hear that all they need to do now is test it and they'll be set.
Yes this is very good news.
See my post down further as to see why I say this isn't good news.
Hint: This smells like a scam.
i hope that this is true, then we could start seeing a lot more modds dfor the d2g
Of course, 2 days after i send my brick in to verizon. good news tho
If you check the twitter account it says that the phone must be mailed just like the band unlock guy... I smell a scam and I for one do not recommend sending any phones by mail to anyone you don't know. You're just asking to have your phone stolen.
I wouldn't trust anyone who says that you must mail the phone to them or that you must meet them in person. If they really want to be trust worthy they will just give you the link to the file straight up. If they needed testers then they can setup a private channel on irc or something.
This is not a scam.
All of the members of TBH have NS(Non Secured) flash dev phones because that is what we personally chose to spend our own money on.
We also have consumer hardware test phones for other models but not the D2G or Pro.
We cannot test the SBF files we got recently on our phones and cannot afford to purchase these models at full retail to test the files.
We are well established in the community and have provided virtually all of the leaked SBF files for all of the Droid devices in existence.
Our record of community service stands for itself and has no comparable parallel.
Everybody wants these files and we want to release them so users who have soft bricked can recover and everyone can breathe a little easier modding these phones.
I would ask anyone who questions our motives how much of their own money they have spent on providing the community with such valuable resources as these files?
Anybody?
I thought so...
cellzealot said:
This is not a scam.
All of the members of TBH have NS(Non Secured) flash dev phones because that is what we personally chose to spend our own money on.
We also have consumer hardware test phones for other models but not the D2G or Pro.
We cannot test the SBF files we got recently on our phones and cannot afford to purchase these models at full retail to test the files.
We are well established in the community and have provided virtually all of the leaked SBF files for all of the Droid devices in existence.
Our record of community service stands for itself and has no comparable parallel.
Everybody wants these files and we want to release them so users who have soft bricked can recover and everyone can breathe a little easier modding these phones.
I would ask anyone who questions our motives how much of their own money they have spent on providing the community with such valuable resources as these files?
Anybody?
I thought so...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Beautiful post and well said!
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using XDA App
cellzealot said:
This is not a scam.
All of the members of TBH have NS(Non Secured) flash dev phones because that is what we personally chose to spend our own money on.
We also have consumer hardware test phones for other models but not the D2G or Pro.
We cannot test the SBF files we got recently on our phones and cannot afford to purchase these models at full retail to test the files.
We are well established in the community and have provided virtually all of the leaked SBF files for all of the Droid devices in existence.
Our record of community service stands for itself and has no comparable parallel.
Everybody wants these files and we want to release them so users who have soft bricked can recover and everyone can breathe a little easier modding these phones.
I would ask anyone who questions our motives how much of their own money they have spent on providing the community with such valuable resources as these files?
Anybody?
I thought so...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do apologize as I'm new to having a Motorola device and thus do not know all of the developers yet for this brand of hardware. I recently came over from an HTC phone which has the Unrevoked team behind it for rooting purposes and so forth.
I only claimed that this seemed like a scam as I'm cautious about these short of things and your request asking for phones to be mailed seems very much so a tail tell sign of a scam. Again I apologize if this is your preferred operating procedure.
If I had better information about your group/organization then I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. If I had a soft bricked phone and had this information before hand I would have been more willing to help out. Though I personally still do not want to ship any phone via the mail. I would prefer an in person meeting where this test could then be conducted.
I too understand these phones are not cheap and it's not easy for developers to obtain consumer devices for testing purposes. Since these phones cost so much is why I'm cautious when it comes to someone asking for a phone to be mailed in.
I think the best way to test whether its an sbf or not is to make a new thread with links to it and a disclaimer, if it works, hey, that's awesome, if it doesnt, who cares, the phones its being tested on are already softbricked anyhow.
My question is, what if it is the sbf? Besides fixing softbricked phones, what more can be done with it?
Sent from my WICKED FAST Droid 2 Global with fission using XDA app
boomertwo said:
I do apologize as I'm new to having a Motorola device and thus do not know all of the developers yet for this brand of hardware. I recently came over from an HTC phone which has the Unrevoked team behind it for rooting purposes and so forth.
I only claimed that this seemed like a scam as I'm cautious about these short of things and your request asking for phones to be mailed seems very much so a tail tell sign of a scam. Again I apologize if this is your preferred operating procedure.
If I had better information about your group/organization then I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. If I had a soft bricked phone and had this information before hand I would have been more willing to help out. Though I personally still do not want to ship any phone via the mail. I would prefer an in person meeting where this test could then be conducted.
I too understand these phones are not cheap and it's not easy for developers to obtain consumer devices for testing purposes. Since these phones cost so much is why I'm cautious when it comes to someone asking for a phone to be mailed in.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
rusty815 said:
I think the best way to test whether its an sbf or not is to make a new thread with links to it and a disclaimer, if it works, hey, that's awesome, if it doesnt, who cares, the phones its being tested on are already softbricked anyhow.
My question is, what if it is the sbf? Besides fixing softbricked phones, what more can be done with it?
Sent from my WICKED FAST Droid 2 Global with fission using XDA app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We will not release anything until we have had a chance to thoroughly test it for ourselves, not all things we get are worth releasing.
To be honest this thread started good but really went silly rather quickly. Neither Cell nor myself need to defend the work we have done for the community and to state that we are scamming is asinine. As Cell stated we have lots of devices in many different flavors, they are not consumer phones therefore we can not always test things that we would like to.
I'm sure you know what TBH does and what we have done, if not you can most likely find 1 or 2 posts about us online somewhere. This is not a question of us not knowing what the files are, we know what we have in hand therefore that is not the question being asked. The request is for a consumer device to test this on.
So if you know someone with a phone that is inoperable have them contact us, so we can help them out and in return help out the entire community.
P3Droid
TBH
Has anyone offered to send a phone to you yet? Where are you located?
No, I went and bought a new D2G from VZW tonight so I can manage this myself.
Once testing is complete we will decide when and how to release the SBF file.
You're welcome...
sorry if I came off as a bit "silly" i do know about tbh and their contributions to the droid community. i was just suggesting an alternative way of testing this, but i understand your concern about releasing it publicly, it may cause more harm than good.
while im here, might i ask if the 3g mobile hotspot patch can be made for the d2g, seeing as how you have a d2g now? ive been waiting a while hoping that someone can make the patch for the d2g.
cellzealot said:
No, I went and bought a new D2G from VZW tonight so I can manage this myself.
Once testing is complete we will decide when and how to release the SBF file.
You're welcome...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey guys, sorry for the harassment/doubters. Unfortunately, the couple of posters who got on here were too lazy to follow the links on your twitter account to the website where it can be clearly seen just how crazy active you guys are on the Android scene and how reasonable you are with these types of requests.
Thanks so much for all the work you do to make Android phones do what they're supposed to do (stupid carriers with their stupidity). You guys do great work and I, for one, appreciate it a lot! Looking forward to the release
cellzealot said:
No, I went and bought a new D2G from VZW tonight so I can manage this myself.
Once testing is complete we will decide when and how to release the SBF file.
You're welcome...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is very generous from your side!
I don't know about others, but I think we should establish a fund or something like that to cover such expenses for our development teams. I am totally willing to shell some money for having the peace of mind of having the SBF file for my D2G laying around ready shall the need arise.
Right now (without SBF) I am reluctant of touching anything on my phone due to lack of safe way out. I am not in the States and exchanging the phone will cost me considerable amount of money and efforts.
Not sure if I should start a new thread for this as cellzealot already bought the phone, but I if this gets somehow organized, I am in with $20 to offset the expense. $20 is much less than what I would have to pay to ship the phone anywhere for whatever reason.
cellzealot, does your team have a paypal or something we can use for the purpose?
I have a Droid2Global that boots but is stuck at the stupid Backup Manager screen and doesn't allow me to go anywhere else. If you want, I'm more than happy to try the SBF out on that D2G if you send me the SBF. PM me if you want me to try it.
@leobg: Thanks for the offer of support.
We really don't care for the practice of plastering donate buttons all over in every forum where we post...so we don't do it.
The best way to support TeamBlackHat and the continued availability of these files and our other development projects is to purchase our app in the market for the extremely reasonable sum of $2.00 US. It is just a downloader that provides our users with access to all of the various leaks and other files. There is a filter that only presents content for the specific connected device.
There is also a donate button at the top of the screen for further support if you are feeling generous, thanks. The files are made available via the app exclusively for some period and then posted publicly for everyone later on MyDroidWorld. http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/forum.php
That is our way of providing a perk for our supporters and also assuring that all content is made available to the entire community.
This also prevents us from being accused of "selling leaks", despite the fact that those making such accusations have no clue whatsoever how these files are acquired or at what cost.
This is what we do and have been doing for most of the past year or so since the advent of Motorola Android phones with the original Droid.
There is no profit in this at all...trust me...it's just a way for us to absorb some of the cost of our passion for these devices and serve a unique and critical function to meet need for these kinds of files.
Nobody else has consistently proven to have access to these files except us and we have released every flash file for every Motorola Droid device in existence with the exception of two that RootzWiki released.
We don't do a lot of self promotion and prancing around on forums attracting attention to ourselves, that's not our way.
Thanks again for your interest and support!
Just sent you a donation for your work on the droid 2 global sbf. Your work is much appreciated!
THANK YOU!
-Strandedhuman
I have just purchased the TBH app from market. Plan to use the donate link there very soon. I really appreciate your efforts guys!
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL
As most of you would know, we have learned quite a bit about Defy bootloader during the last week.
We always thought that Motorola don't have a method to unlock production defys (defys shipped to end users). Well we have sufficient information now to prove that Motorola have a method, and that it converts production defys to engineering defys (Phones used by Motorola engineers to make ROMs and other stuff)
This is actually better than a simple unlocked boot-loader because eng defys have unlimited applications (because we have direct access to MOBO/CPU) like overclocking gpu, installing other OS like Ubuntu, Debian, WP7 etc. into NAND and a lot more.
So the problem here is that the tools required for ENG switch is only available to Motorola employees. Till now we have no further information on it. The tools are TI OMAP BOARD CONFIGURATION TOOL and a 16MB .bin file. Other significance of this method is that it might also unlock other phones with OMAP(3xxx/xxxx?) board. Also this method seems to be very stable.
So the good news is that this software is available for most Motorola repair centers. That means it would be easier to get a leak. Of course the highly paid Motorola engineers with 6digit paycheck wont leak it but we should consider low level repair executives (they already leak sbfs and RSDlite).
So my suggestion is we start a bounty thread in XDA to tempt them.
If you have a solution and if you are concerned about anonymity, please PM me.
PS : There are lots of bounty threads in xda.
Hi,
Setting a Bounty would be cool, but is legal ?
Cause it is not like "I pay you a lot of money if you steal this software for me"
the|gamer said:
Hi,
Setting a Bounty would be cool, but is legal ?
Cause it is not like "I pay you a lot of money if you steal this software for me"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmm. It depend's on which country you are from.
I'm quite on it. Minimum/maximum fee could be set (like US$2 min and 20 bucks max, or anything like this). And someone with access to Motorola's employees (I think the user racca works on a Moto distributor, but I'm not sure of it, I think he mentioned it in some thread a few months ago) could rush and "bribe" them. If people could be a bit more clear about which kind of employees should have access to this software, I could try and convince one of them (you know, people here in Brazil aren't that much into honesty, but are a lot into money) about heading us a leak from TI's software. I'll have to take my phone to MOTOAssist soon ("menu" and "back" keys' backlights are weaker than normal), so I'd have at least an actual reason to talk to an assist technician (assuming they have access to the board configuration tool).
Yet, since I'm no hacker (yet, I'm planning on getting a Nook Color - which community here in XDA seems to provide all you need to start your own ROM - and starting messing around with it) nor coder (know only a little about C programming), I would not try and mess around with TI's software, but only upload it somewhere and give you guys a link for it.
K3n bH1mur4 said:
I'm quite on it. Minimum/maximum fee could be set (like US$2 min and 20 bucks max, or anything like this).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We could even promote it with ads. The best way would be to set up our on website, maybe in Brazil(or with some webhost who would like to host this) where you could bribe your way out and then promote it with ads. There is a remote chance that XDA might not approve a bounty thread here (of illegal implications), but we could publish the website here and all other major forums (chinese forums as well).
royale1223 said:
We could even promote it with ads. The best way would be to set up our on website, maybe in Brazil(or with some webhost who would like to host this) where you could bribe your way out and then promote it with ads. There is a remote chance that XDA might not approve a bounty thread here (of illegal implications), but we could publish the website here and all other major forums (chinese forums as well).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dunno, since it's illegal, it may not be the best option to promote it. Obviously, it's still not immoral, but we all know that morality and law often do not converge, so it may be better to go rogue, talking in private with motoassist technicians and stuff like that, because, even if we're just fighting for our rights, we're still using non-legal ways, and risking to be sued for it.
I don't think promoting a website is illegal. What's illegal is hosting an illegal one.
Promoting a website who promises cash for employees of a corporation who leak internal software used by that corp. might be considered illegal in most places. Fortunately (or not, I'll explain why), we have jurisprudence to embase of: in september 1st, last year, a judge here in Brazil condemned Moto to update a customer's Dext/CLIQ to Android 2.1 (Moto did not provide this update here in Brazil, even though it did in many countries) without voiding the warranty.
I know it's just one case, in just one country, and updating an android version is way different than providing unlocked bootloaders (or the tools for users to do so). And, yes, I agree with placing a bounty at the tool. Yet, if we get caught, Moto can still argue that we had other ways to pursue our rights, and we should have used the justice system to do so, if we believed we were that right. Yet, they're a multimillion-worthy company (even bigger after being purchased by Google), and we're a bunch of broke users, at most devs making a couple thousand dollars, and would have little chance against their lawyers. Last, but not least, employers who help us may get caught and fired because of us, and I sincerely want nobody (ok, maybe a few of the highest executives) to get fired just for me to get an unlocked BL.
So, my point is: let's make this a stealth action. Get a reason for your phone to be taken to Motoassist (no intentional bricking, please! You must flash an official SBF before taking it there! - at least if your phone is still under warranty), get to talk with one of their technicians, and mention - indifferently - that some guys are giving alway big money for any Moto employee who leaks that TI OMAP software. Something like this: "hey, did you hear that crazy devs at this dev forum are paying the first moto technician to hand them some sort of software? Something OMAP-related, I don't know for sure. All I know is that the reward is some nice cash."
When the word spread, we could have an unlocked bootloader within a month.
Yet, we got a single issue to deal: how to ensure the person who gives us the SW first will actually receive the cash? I've seen a few bounties here before, but them all were settled by XDA devs (so the bounty keeper could just donate the sum to that dev), never saw something like paying "outsiders".
One of my friends (Defy+ user) has a contact with a Motorola service guy. He says that that guy knows everything about Motorola software and he's with us because he himself uses custom ROMs and controls an entire service center. He's ready to take my device under warranty though it's rooted along every single hack/MOD for Defy installed
Will try contacting him
And let's post this in the forums of all other locked Motorola devices with OMAP 3xxx chips.
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App
swapnil360 said:
One of my friends (Defy+ user) has a contact with a Motorola service guy. He says that that guy knows everything about Motorola software and he's with us because he himself uses custom ROMs and controls an entire service center. He's ready to take my device under warranty though it's rooted along every single hack/MOD for Defy installed
Will try contacting him
And let's post this in the forums of all other locked Motorola devices with OMAP 3xxx chips.
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Talk with this guy. If he has access to a copy of TI's SW, and handle it to us, I'm pretty sure we could him get a nice reward. Not as high as if putting a bounty, but definitely enough to make the effort worth it.
I mean, supposing that this is actually gonna help unlock EVERY OMAP 3 (and possibly all OMAP-based phones) out there, and that this way the process is reversible (at least to me, it looks like no eFuse is being blown there, you know, assistance technicians can't just blow eFuses like that - taking the phone to the assistance under warranty shouldn't void it, and that's what a blown eFuse would do), loads of people would help. Imagine a single dollar from every OMAP 3 XDA user (take a look here for an INCOMPLETE list of OMAP 3 devices with ~30 ANDROID ONLY phones/tablets), that would make a lot of money.
this is good....and i think it will be best to not mention the location,identities,or any hint of similarities of the perosn source once you guys get contacts & manifests from that guy(source). so as not to compromise his profession.
he could be fired & worse can be sued by leaking private details.
best discuss it in private,after getting in touch w/ him...
just a tought of CAUTION...
hailmary said:
this is good....and i think it will be best to not mention the location,identities,or any hint of similarities of the perosn source once you guys get contacts & manifests from that guy(source). so as not to compromise his profession.
he could be fired & worse can be sued by leaking private details.
best discuss it in private,after getting in touch w/ him...
just a tought of CAUTION...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah we would ensure him that.
I'll help u out....juzz tell me what to get from moto officials
hemil said:
I'll help u out....juzz tell me what to get from moto officials
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
do u know motorola mobility service center in mbai?
we only hav private shops with motos certificate...
i dont think they can help...
all they say is we'll send it to factory(?)
Sent from my MB525 using xda premium
@hemil Please pm me.
hemil said:
I'll help u out....juzz tell me what to get from moto officials
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey buddy... just wait for my call today...
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App
Putting up an ads offering money for violation the law may be a bit problematic. No website will be excited to host it. Another issue is that in the end someone will have to actually post it, someone in particular. And that one person will be in danger of being a subject of interest of various law enforcement agencies. You know, at the end of the day they always want someone to put the responsibility on, the culprit, a scapegoat. So you make heat and you put some particular person into it even before there is any result.
I would prefer to focus more on personal face to face private communications with the service guys. It's harder to prove and if something goes wrong (the guy records it etc.) our guy can always say he was just kidding, bullshitting, bigmouthing.
Anyway, if you are thinking about this seriously, here are few remarks.
don't offer the particular sum, it's not tactical; not even here should be mentioned any particular number; instead, let the service guy ask his price
if the first contact with a potential source is established, ask first for a proof; specify what the proof is supposed to be (a screenshot? a video recording of the software in action?)
figure out a way how to actually collect the money; people are willing to donate but they will not donate to anyone, only to someone trustworthy (but Epsylon will surely want to have nothing to do with everything even remotely questionable, let alone illegal); the "collector" will be under the lights, he may get attention of people we don't want to deal with
who actually will be allowed to donate? anyone? how to avoid an agent to donate and then simply track where the money is going?
figure out a way how to actually make a safe and smooth deal (money <-> software); will it be in person or electronically? how to verify we are given what we paid for? classical problem: no one of both parties is willing to make his move first, but we can't give away the money for a software we would start verifying not until the money is gone
figure out how to avoid being robbed (fake offers from people who would want to grab the money and run away) as well as being caught (fake offers from the dummy guy - LE agent); in both cases the correct proof might be given, though, but the intentions are wrong
For the particular mechanics of the exchange in person, one of numerous possible ways may go like this:
our guy comes with an intentionally bricked Defy repairable only with the software in question together with the ordinary USB cable (or without, if special USB cable is needed; in that case the cable must be part of the deal), and with an empty flash drive recognizable at the first sight; no money on him
our guy passes the flash drive and the Defy (and the USB cable, if no special cable is needed) to the "source" and watches closely
the source copies the software onto the flash drive, runs the software from the flash drive, connects the Defy via the cable provided and actually unbricks the phone (this must be more elaborated on; what if the software uses some libraries from the windows directories etc. which are not copied onto the flash drive? he may or may not have the installer, but just copying the installer isn't enough, he would have to copy the installer on the flash drive, then run the installer from it and install it back onto the flash drive and run it from there)
our guy gets the phone (and the cable) back, the source unplugs the flash drive and keeps it for now, our guy watches the flash drive is not connected to anything from now on
now the software is copied onto the flash drive and verified it's working, thus ordinary hand-to-hand exchange may proceed; our guy didn't bring the money to avoid being robbed, they both now may go grab the money or our guy may call his buddy with the money etc. (also needs to be heavily elaborated on)
Sensitive parts must be detailed in-depth, I am just indicating the outline, one of many possible. Still it's very far from perfect.
As you can see it's not that easy and there are many potential points of failure so this action may never really come to the practical realization.
What about a little bit different or alternative ways? Are there any? It would be useful to ask Epsylon what he would actually wish for the most - had he been able to wish for anything.
isn't it illegal to post copyrighted stuff and also its against forum rules..
i mean that if someone gets his hand on that super tool, then how can he shares it with us???
rishi2100 said:
isn't it illegal to post copyrighted stuff and also its against forum rules..
i mean that if someone gets his hand on that super tool, then how can he shares it with us???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
huh !! think about moto when they actually ditch us with promises ? whats wrong if what we are screaming for last 1 year . and didnt get any updates ? huh think about tht before u speak about illegal stuffs . if moto is doing all sought of ways to keep us away from our rights . what we do undercover to get us right can no way be questioned when we have told thousands of times that we need updates .
more over the authority can question us only and only when they are themselves self guilt free .... but instead they are pretending to be saint sitting behind the curtains and doing all sought of locking stuff to deprive us of our rights
@jhonsmithx Let's not get ahead of ourselves. First of all lets concentrate on getting the source. Also I urge users to use a bit of social engineering to do that(using fb/g ). We'll put together a plan according to the situation after that. Also note that this is a pretty long shot. We might not get a source after all.
rishi2100 said:
isn't it illegal to post copyrighted stuff and also its against forum rules..
i mean that if someone gets his hand on that super tool, then how can he shares it with us???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I could think of atleast 10 ways to share anonymously. Though I wont be posting them here.
F*ck SOPA!
God when I said "could my day get any worse?" it was rhetorical.
I don't wanna lost torrent.... Is Xda at risk too?
Shawnpwn said:
F*ck SOPA!
God when I said "could my day get any worse?" it was rhetorical.
I don't wanna lost torrent.... Is Xda at risk too?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well SOPA isnt even passed so SOPA isnt the one to blame. the FED shut down megaupload without it, (as mentioned a thousand times). anyways i feel that XDA developers have relied pretty heavily on megaupload for ROMS, kernels and various files. so now when you go to some random rom, kernel or guide, what are you supposed to do when their files are linked to megaupload? yea this whole thing sucks, thats for sure
Dropbox?
Sent from my Samsung Droid Charge 4G-LTE
Rominucka said:
Dropbox?
Sent from my Samsung Droid Charge 4G-LTE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Need some idea's guys.. as I have to shift a few links from fileserve..
FED SOPA poteto-potato
is it just megaup at the moment?
are all the file shares going to do it?
@up very likely most will fall they all im sure host pirated stuff
back to FTP then
For those who need an alternative to the megaupload.
Anonyupload.com is the new file-hosting service without ads and made by Anonymous (I think all you know who they are). They're going to open this site soon and the servers will be placed in Russia
Even with SOPA down and PIPA on the back burner, XDA could easily be shut down if patent/copyright holders wanted to. In my research through the various EULAs, ACTA, DMCA and some of the current laws trying to be passed here in the states (and various trade agreements across the world) loopholes are being tightened and companies are starting to be forced to act to keep their IP valid.
Look at the patent wars between Apple & Samsung - according to some of the filings, ROMs and Kernels that contain functionality that are being contested could be viewed as illegal on this site and others.
It's a sad world we live in these days in regards to these types of information lock down, it seems even pure AOSP could be a violation of some IP law somewhere depending on signed treaties and/or loose interpretation of existing laws.
Will it happen? Unlikely, at least right now, but as these laws get passed and treaties get enacted rules here will probably need to be tightened in order to stay in compliance.
It sucks, the only way to stop this from happening is to be be active in voicing your opinion. Whether its calling up your senator, parliament or voting with your cash. :/
this is a ****