1. GPL-Violation
i think that movikun is right. I do not have rights to give my binary to anyone before I would post my sources.
and I am not sure if I have rights to determine the time I post my sources too.
see movikun's reply here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=6047882&postcount=2
so I decide to stop posting anything temporarily. thank you movikun, you teach me a lesson.
there are many devices running a .29 kernel now, they are all formal/official distributions but their sources have not open yet.
and after HTC release their .29 binary for 32A and HERO, if they don't release the sources immediately and you think it violate the GPL, please kick their ass. you will get what you want from there.
2. what I had done.
I did little things as someone said. that's TRUE. the most time I spent, were just looking into the sources, and try to understand everything. if one get enough understandings, there are not many things to do.
we have a working kernel, proper device specified files and configurations, you can find them all in msm-kernel .29/.32 and htc-kernel .27. everyone could make same changes what I did, if he have proper skills.
I had not took a look at others works, it's unnecessary and it may have noise with other's tweaks. so it doesn't make sense that I must post my sources just because they had posted theirs.
in fact, in a programmer's view, I never think these works are much valuable.
3 why I don't release my sources.
a) I know we won't get any contribution except different binary version if I would posted my patches at current. these binaries just make things more complicated.
though you can't get my sources, but if you take a look at android/HAL sources on Google's repo and Qualcomm's site, you will find something valuable about problems we faced.
but no one except me works on that. I don't believe in some people who named everything they can name. I won't work with them, or let them get my works so easily, unless they would have made some real contribution for our community.
b) after months I had posted my kernel, yongzi posted his patch. but how many people care about his work? everyone just remember something like XXkernel. what are these XXkernels?
I don't like that. I am not someone like yongzi. it's a game for me: I want to see if I do not post my patches, could these people get things done by themselves? I have shown what could be done at least, now it's our heroes's turn. they won't have any excuse to make their great named kernel staying with old radio anymore.
I am not aiming at users and ROM devs, I am talking about someone made their brand on a kernel they mashed up. if they named it as XXkernels, they should provide something special, but not a normal kernel with others patches.
even Ubuntu won't name the kernel they used as "UbuntuKernel", though they did much more. but it happened in our community. yes GPL don't prevent that, but I don't want these named kernels to include my work.
c) when I had posted the kernel binary, GPS could not work in some ROM. some people just said that the bug is in the kernel, and they didn't have the kernel sources.
now, we all get GPS working by replacing a different libgps.so, with same kernel binary.
how can you expect me to work with these people? they even don't want to understand anything, just try to mash things up and name it. if it doesn't work, all faults belong to others. and if you ask them something they have known, they never response. yes, they obeyed the GPL with their "release".
you could think they are good. but personally, I won't encourage their behaviors. the only way I can choose, just refuse to share my sources. if I have other choices, I won't be so disagreeable.
--------------
the .32 kernel is deleted temporary.
First off, let me commend you for coming clean, and at least trying to explain yourself, and not just getting angry and slurring those criticising. Thank you.
However, you seriously misunderstand the GPL. It is NOT up to you to decide if the license applies to you or not, dependent on how many changes you made. Normally i would just link to the license and scream "rtfl!", but I do NOT want this to turn into a flamewar. However, before i begin let me be clear, i am ONLY talking about the linux kernel. The rest of android is licensed under MIT, and sense bit are propietary. And it's only the Linux kernel i'm concerned about. So, let's go:
- You get the source from google/htc/motorolla/someone else. It is licensed under to you under the GPL. Which means you must abide by it, or not use the code.
- You modify it for you personal needs. This is permitted, and encouraged. You do not need to distribute anything, since it's only for you personal use.
- You've decided you want to pass along the binaries to your friend, with your changes. AT THIS VERY MOMENT you MUST give him the source code, and this is NOT NEGOTIABLE. He has every right to get the source code, just as you did when you got the source code from google, and thats because you made changes to GPL code. GPL is viral and it was deisgined SPECIFICALLY to do JUST THAT.
Also, another error that you make, is that you think that you can make a non-gpl release. Such a thing doesn't exist. You cannot change the license of GPL code. Once code is GPL, it STAYS GPL.
And yes, HTC was VERY late on numerous occasions with it's sources. We know that. However, that's not an excuse. Do you kill people just because there are murders on the world? Of course not, because they're wrong. GPL-Violations is already informed and working on getting the 32A 1.2 sources, and if it comes to that, they'll work on that too. However, that does NOT give you the right to whithold your sources.
To summarize : either you don't release the sources to the kernel, admit you're breaking the GPL, stop distributing your 2.6.29 and 2.6.32, or you put up a tarball/github somewhere, and the community will gladly accept it. The choice is yours.
P.S. This has made me, and a couple of other close devs feel extremely distastefull. The Magic scene is loosing developers to the N1 extremely fast, and it's just sad that we have to fight each other to play by the rules.
#teamdouche
sanpei, we all know what its like to work for this community. You release something and people blame you for any little bug and also never give you credit.
Despite this, I really hope you decide to post your sources, it would great to have and there are lots of people who could do great work with it. The point of this community to work together and not withhold your work because you want to be the only one with it.
Honestly, I just want to ask where did you get the information needed to create the AMSS 6355 patch or where did you obtain that code?
bcrook said:
sanpei, we all know what its like to work for this community. You release something and people blame you for any little bug and also never give you credit.
Despite this, I really hope you decide to post your sources, it would great to have and there are lots of people who could do great work with it. The point of this community to work together and not withhold your work because you want to be the only one with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just as an outsider who lurks but really does not post anything usefull. I find the majority of the posters are very thankful on this forum. The problem is, for every 15 thank you's the one flame will be heard more than all the gratitude.
I think you should just ignore the detractors and focus on the thankful people. Pissy people will always make a bigger fuss than a happy one, yet the happy ones are the ones you need to keep happy. The unhappy ones can go to hell.
movikun said:
First off, let me commend you for coming clean, and at least trying to explain yourself, and not just getting angry and slurring those criticising. Thank you.
However, you seriously misunderstand the GPL. It is NOT up to you to decide if the license applies to you or not, dependent on how many changes you made. Normally i would just link to the license and scream "rtfl!", but I do NOT want this to turn into a flamewar. However, before i begin let me be clear, i am ONLY talking about the linux kernel. The rest of android is licensed under MIT, and sense bit are propietary. And it's only the Linux kernel i'm concerned about. So, let's go:
- You get the source from google/htc/motorolla/someone else. It is licensed under to you under the GPL. Which means you must abide by it, or not use the code.
- You modify it for you personal needs. This is permitted, and encouraged. You do not need to distribute anything, since it's only for you personal use.
- You've decided you want to pass along the binaries to your friend, with your changes. AT THIS VERY MOMENT you MUST give him the source code, and this is NOT NEGOTIABLE. He has every right to get the source code, just as you did when you got the source code from google, and thats because you made changes to GPL code. GPL is viral and it was deisgined SPECIFICALLY to do JUST THAT.
Also, another error that you make, is that you think that you can make a non-gpl release. Such a thing doesn't exist. You cannot change the license of GPL code. Once code is GPL, it STAYS GPL.
And yes, HTC was VERY late on numerous occasions with it's sources. We know that. However, that's not an excuse. Do you kill people just because there are murders on the world? Of course not, because they're wrong. GPL-Violations is already informed and working on getting the 32A 1.2 sources, and if it comes to that, they'll work on that too. However, that does NOT give you the right to whithold your sources.
To summarize : either you don't release the sources to the kernel, admit you're breaking the GPL, stop distributing your 2.6.29 and 2.6.32, or you put up a tarball/github somewhere, and the community will gladly accept it. The choice is yours.
P.S. This has made me, and a couple of other close devs feel extremely distastefull. The Magic scene is loosing developers to the N1 extremely fast, and it's just sad that we have to fight each other to play by the rules.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you are right. thank you for this lesson
for discussions:
I think I have a workaround on this: if I claim a organization, and our members can get my binary, and this organization never distribute anything to the world out of it. then it will not violate the GPL.
wesgarner said:
Honestly, I just want to ask where did you get the information needed to create the AMSS 6355 patch or where did you obtain that code?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you already have all things as I have.
in fact, I think you could make the patch in 1 or 2 days if you would think about how things work seriously.
sanpei said:
I think you are right. thank you for this lesson
for discussions:
I think I have a workaround on this: if I claim a organization, and our members can get my binary, and this organization never distribute anything to the world out of it. then it will not violate the GPL.
you already have all things as I have.
in fact, I think you could make the patch in 1 or 2 days if you would think about how things work seriously.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i have your binary and everyone on xda has it
we want the source for it and you refuse
you are a good coder im sure but you dont share the OSS spirit many of us do obviously - we just want everyone to share the code and give credit where credit is due
do you see people ripping off cyanogen for his kernel? they modify and give credit to cyanogen and this is the SPIRIT of the GPL (thanks for your work bcrook on cm kernel)
same with wes - thanks for all your work too wes - hopefully we can get NR kernel over from you soon - love your old radio version that was compiled
your above comment proves you just use FOSS and dont abide by the rules
dont release anything in the future if u dont have sources
thanks
edit: looking at your OP i dont believe you grasp OSS and the liscense
to release anything to the public can be done w/o source
the liscense states that if someone requests the source you must provide it (lots of request for your source)
HTC COMPLIES BECAUSE IF ASKED THEY WILL RELEASE
second to ahkmsk - i looked at your thread and honestly if you dont want to develop for a device you dont have then DONT
your roms are always half cooked and rarely updated / fixed - personally the only DAILY rom you released was your superD port (daily meaning i can use it on a daily basis and not be hampered by bugs or lost functionality)
maybe you should wait to own a device before you develop so you are motivated to release fully functioning roms and not half baked sense roms based on dumps
you guys are the queens of drama...
sanpei said:
I think you are right. thank you for this lesson
for discussions:
I think I have a workaround on this: if I claim a organization, and our members can get my binary, and this organization never distribute anything to the world out of it. then it will not violate the GPL.
you already have all things as I have.
in fact, I think you could make the patch in 1 or 2 days if you would think about how things work seriously.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or as the beauty of the dev community, share
Of course I always give credit where credit is due - you wouldn't be disincluded
I have all of the code and have cleaned it up nicely only one bug left in it for audio - if you would like you could look at the commits and see if u see my (probable) typo
bcrook said:
sanpei, we all know what its like to work for this community. You release something and people blame you for any little bug and also never give you credit.
Despite this, I really hope you decide to post your sources, it would great to have and there are lots of people who could do great work with it. The point of this community to work together and not withhold your work because you want to be the only one with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I never said I won't release the sources forever. I just feel uncomfortable many people did things in such a way.
so if they have troubles, I don't want this trouble to be resolved by me.
and not to put too fine a point on it, I find that there not so many people who could do some serious work with the kernel, if they just wait for someone to provide the correct patches.
they should try to understand what they MUST understand. after this, we would believe that they could do something valuable, but not just name things already exists.
alan090 said:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wesgarner said:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my request is very simple:
create a real project which belongs to community only, do not call it with any uncommon name.
I don't think that cm-kernel, WGKernel, or sanpei kernel do really exist. all of these are just normal linux kernel, with some public patches and little changes.
we should not name the kernel binary we release to users too. because what we did just too trivial to mention if we compare these works with real kernel development. and some option tweaks are absolute nothing.
(you could name the ROM releases)
and we should promise that we will work in this project in the future, and we won't make a named kernel again, unless you rewrite more than 1/10 codes of the kernel and make it real different from a common kernel.
then, I will work with you guys together, you will find that I am not so idiotic as you may think now.
sanpei said:
you already have all things as I have.
in fact, I think you could make the patch in 1 or 2 days if you think about how things work seriously.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh for god's sake, if you know the solution, why don't you just TELL us what to do?? Or better yet, produce a kernel patch? Stop playing this annoying "I know something you don't, tee-hee, figure it out yourself!" game of yours.
I don't have much against you personally and I didn't want to get involved in this at all, because I really didn't give that much to Android community myself in the first place (and it's not because I wouldn't want to), but this selfish attitude of yours is annoying the hell out of me really (to put it mildly). What good is it to know something and sit on it selfishly for months instead of sharing it so others can benefit from it? And why not in exchange let others help YOU figure out the things you seem to struggle with, whenever it is because you're busy or simply because you don't know the solution, which happens to any of us sometimes, even the brightest? Isn't that the whole point of joining a community in the first place?
If everyone in the Android community was following your example, there would most likely be no community at all by now. There would just be a bunch of people like Cyanogen or Wes posting about what great things have they done with their phones that they won't allow others to reuse. What a community feeliing...
If you don't want to release something, don't, that's fine by me, I don't care that much as others do about you following GPL or not (although I really should, it exists for a reason), but if you decide so, then please also stop boasting to others about all those awesome things you have and won't give them. It doesn't make you look wise, it just makes you look like a wiseass.
You're also saying you don't like that people are splicing ROMs together with bits and pieces of other ROMs, yet instead of setting an example on how to do it right all you do is give people your kernel binary (and I mean the .29 in your ROMs, not just the .32 you've shared here earlier today) instead of kernel source. What good is the kernel binary if people can't modify it and/or compile it themselves as they should? If someone wants to make a ROM for 32A new radio, they pretty much have to do exactly what you dislike - splice your kernel binary with some other ROM and hope for the best. The effect is that you've been deliberately slowing the 32A community's progress for months now, because of...of what, exactly? Fame? The feeling of uniqueness? The community is already weakening as the many are moving to N1, why the hell would you want to weaken it even more and intentionally by denying others access to what you have available? What's the point? Unless you really don't have the sources as some people are implying, but then, why don't simply confess and be done with it with style?
I really don't get this at all.
On a separate but related note, if devs in general don't like the hacks among us (such as myself ) cooking ROMs by taking bits and pieces from everyone and splicing them together, then please let us know. I don't want to post the little I have done if it will upset the majority of devs.
Unfortunately as Case just stated, I personally have felt the need to try (as lame as my efforts may seem to the far more knowledgeable devs) to put ROMs together for the 32a Magic community and myself even if they have some bugs. We just don't have any other option at this point if we want to go with the new radio.
The majority of posters seem to always give credit where it is deserved when taking from devs.
sanpei said:
my request is very simple:
create a real project which belongs to community only, do not call it with any uncommon name.
I don't think that cm-kernel, WGKernel, or sanpei kernel does really exist. all of these are just normal linux kernel, with some public patches and little changes.
we should not name the kernel binary we release to users too. because what we did just too trivial to mention if we compare these works with real kernel development.
(you could name the ROM releases)
and we should promise that we will work in this project in the future, and we won't make a named kernel again, except you rewrite more than 1/10 codes of kernel at least.
then, I will work with you guys together. you will find that I am not so idiotic as you think now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think your an idiot sanpei
I just think we all have a little ways to go here
If you are willing to work on a community kernel with WG im sure all the people involved in porting/rom building will be happy to make you proud of your work
sure people like bcrook and others would be happy to contribute as well
what we just want is you to work with us - not for us
i know i will be happy to work with a new kernel on porting
i will also look into rom cooking more and work with other members to release awesome roms based on 32a community kernel
we just want to work together right
Case_ said:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
giant_rider said:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have already said that I am NOT aiming at ROM devs. the ROM is full filled with your personal styles. that's why people love your ROM. and do you think the kernel works is more difficult or valuable than what you did? absolutely NO.
I am just talking about the kernel. every named kernels are nothing different essentially. they are all one thing and they all have same patches. would you copy Cyanogen's ROM, just install/remove some apps, and name it as yours?
and I don't feel I am wise, uniqueness or somewhat, I just want to struggle with these behaviors. so I refuse to share my work with any named kernel.
the only way to prevent them from getting my patches, just do not post the sources until they are really work together, at a common project as things should go.
Case_ said:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and if all of you think what I did just slowing your progress, OK , I will QUIT. anyway, all of you will get HTC's kernel in next months.
and may I remind you, before I had posted the binary, most people had thought that it's impossible to let msm-kernel work with new radio. at least, they know it could work now. make your efforts, it's not so late.
btw, there are not any spiritual needs what I could get from these works, except the understandings on how these devices work. I have more important things in my life. I just did things on my way. that's all.
you are right on one thing. I shouldn't talk about all these bull-****. if I just had taken the binary from others who you don't know and they couldn't release their sources for some reasons, all of you will be satisfied.
so everybody here, I am just a LIAR . what you have got is STOLEN by me from somewhere. what I said above just my EXCUSEs. the fact is: I DO NOT have the sources
to me it's simple
your feelings could be understood
but once you release the binary to the public
you have to release the source code according to GPL
you may want to define the word 'public'
but you never want to redefine GPL license
that's it
alan090 said:
I don't think your an idiot sanpei
I just think we all have a little ways to go here
If you are willing to work on a community kernel with WG im sure all the people involved in porting/rom building will be happy to make you proud of your work
sure people like bcrook and others would be happy to contribute as well
what we just want is you to work with us - not for us
i know i will be happy to work with a new kernel on porting
i will also look into rom cooking more and work with other members to release awesome roms based on 32a community kernel
we just want to work together right
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
first, thank you for your kind words.
and I hope that other developers could make the patches soon, then I don't need to steal something from somewhere anymore.
you may not get the patches from me, because I am not sure if I can steal sources.
sanpei said:
my request is very simple:
create a real project which belongs to community only, do not call it with any uncommon name.
I don't think that cm-kernel, WGKernel, or sanpei kernel do really exist. all of these are just normal linux kernel, with some public patches and little changes.
we should not name the kernel binary we release to users too. because what we did just too trivial to mention if we compare these works with real kernel development. and some option tweaks are absolute nothing.
(you could name the ROM releases)
and we should promise that we will work in this project in the future, and we won't make a named kernel again, unless you rewrite more than 1/10 codes of the kernel and make it real different from a common kernel.
then, I will work with you guys together, you will find that I am not so idiotic as you may think now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey Sanpei,
First of all I wanted to say thanks for the work you have done for 32a! I really appreciate it - it is something that I cannot do and have no knowledge of!
Secondly, I can understand the issue you have with the naming of the Kernel given that its more just tweaks to the linux kernel that is being done and not a whole new Kernel re-write. However, I think it is still necessary to give it some sort of a name for version tracking and to make sure that people know which version of the Kernel is being discussed / used.
So how about this: For the Kernel that you and others collectively work on for the community why don't we give it a generic name that is not specific to any one developer? We could call it "XDA32a Kernel" or something, that way we can track changes to our community Kernel and if something goes wrong or if there are bugs, people don't point the finger at any one developer/coder.
What do you think?
novat said:
Hey Sanpei,
First of all I wanted to say thanks for the work you have done for 32a! I really appreciate it - it is something that I cannot do and have no knowledge of!
Secondly, I can understand the issue you have with the naming of the Kernel given that its more just tweaks to the linux kernel that is being done and not a whole new Kernel re-write. However, I think it is still necessary to give it some sort of a name for version tracking and to make sure that people know which version of the Kernel is being discussed / used.
So how about this: For the Kernel that you and others collectively work on for the community why don't we give it a generic name that is not specific to any one developer? We could call it "XDA32a Kernel" or something, that way we can track changes to our community Kernel and if something goes wrong or if there are bugs, people don't point the finger at any one developer/coder.
What do you think?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with a generic name.
every binary release should provide correct commit code. they will give all the information we need in a build.
but you should talk to other developers. I just a thief and I can't get sources
Awesome Well I can't code or anything but I am a software tester by profession, and so I have some idea of project management... Maybe I could help get our 32a devs together to work on a joint kernel project?
Who would you suggest I contact to try to get together on a kernel dev team? Yourself, wez, cursor, any others?
Related
Hi,
I see that we have many many roms and 2 types of Sapphire (32B and 32A)
Now I have an idea to help users to install and change rom easierly.
Please read all idea before replying. Some ideas relate to others.
1. All developer should make 2 choices : 32A rom or 32B rom
2. 32B rom have data/app_s. Running system application on flash memory is more stable and faster than running on ext partition sdcard
3. Recovery should have new feature : Wipe data except data/app_s
Amon_RA should add this feature in his recovery.
4. Developers should remove his own theme, 3rd application (which can download from market), moded application ... from rom, rom will be more stable and smaller
5. If developer want share his theme or moded application or add new feature, he should share extend update in an update_extend.zip on his topic. I suggest him to use 1 folder on sdcard and command *.sh file
If you used iPhone, you will see that moded FW of iPhone OS doesn't include theme, extend application (which can download from Appstore). Why can't we do that? I think almost people just want to find a stable rom without theme, without extend application
Some good ideas
+1 from me
Moar standardization pleez
Sounds like the OP is ill-informed, and wants an iPhone.
funbacon said:
4. Developers should remove his own theme, 3rd application (which can download from market), moded application ... from rom, rom will be more stable and smaller
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i've seen a few of these in the dream forum.
the developer releases the rom as a base package. ie. rom only, no (or very few customisations).
then add on packs are released to add 3rd party apps and customisations.
eg. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=538456
this developer has released 4 different roms. each one comes as a base rom that is rooted, and each rom also then has an expansion pack.
themes are then installed as separate downloads.
the post is also very clearly laid out. i wish more developers took the time to create such understandable threads.
Isn't this request cramping developer's style?
Yes that is what you may want. But at the end of the day, they are doing it out of their enjoyment. It's their project and they have free reign on what they do and when they do it. Out of shear good will developers share. Its not up to us to make requests on how things should be. Our roles is to be supportive and grateful for their contributions.
That's not to say your ideas aren't valid... perhaps just not entirely feasible.
ice_prophecy said:
Isn't this request cramping developer's style?
Yes that is what you may want. But at the end of the day, they are doing it out of their enjoyment. It's their project and they have free reign on what they do and when they do it. Out of shear good will developers share. Its not up to us to make requests on how things should be. Our roles is to be supportive and grateful for their contributions.
That's not to say your ideas aren't valid... perhaps just not entirely feasible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good Say My friend
seems like a pretty simple request. but what was said earlier has merit as well, since it is really the developer's choice since its done for free.
but yeah, some sort of options like Enthomer is nice. But then again those updates made by AmonRa and Cyanogen is awesome as well. Fast, stable and useful.
Oh, and I strongly support the part on the way the threads are made. some are really easy to follow up on for change logs and stuff, some are messy.
funbacon said:
If you used iPhone, you will see that moded FW of iPhone OS doesn't include theme, extend application (which can download from Appstore). Why can't we do that? I think almost people just want to find a stable rom without theme, without extend application[/B]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Search the board (and the Android Market) for MetaMorph which does exactly that.
+1
well, although 'm not a dev, but as users this idea is pretty workable. at least we had lesser unneccesary thread and will look more neat and tidy. thats what make xda more professional and classy. way to go devs. +1 to the idea.
thanks.
OP, good idea, but not everyone may think like you, including the DEVs. There is nothing wrong with what you are stating, but it has been mentioned before that different DEVs want to work on different things; some people want to be unique.
One more thing, can you please not use the word should so much, please?
My wife uses it all the time..."you should clean this" " you should go here" " you should say this". thanks.
ice_prophecy said:
Isn't this request cramping developer's style?
Yes that is what you may want. But at the end of the day, they are doing it out of their enjoyment. It's their project and they have free reign on what they do and when they do it. Out of shear good will developers share. Its not up to us to make requests on how things should be. Our roles is to be supportive and grateful for their contributions.
That's not to say your ideas aren't valid... perhaps just not entirely feasible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. Although some of the requests are somewhat reasonable, it's up to the devs to decide what they want to do with their free time and they are dedicating so much of it to making such great contributions to begin with.
We're not paying for the dev's services, so i dont think we have much pull on how they design their ROMS (nor should we)
I think if you want a specific ROM a specific way. YOU should be learning how to code and cook ROMS for yourself.
OzJD said:
Sounds like the OP is ill-informed, and wants an iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read and lol'd. This is probably pretty close to the truth.
Well I for one salute the OP for finally taking a stand and telling the devs what we really want. After all it is all about ME and what I want and they should bloody well be grateful that I even bother to tell them what is wrong with their work, and they should fix it faster. I am a busy guy and can't be bothered to figure out this stuff for myself....
If any of that even vaguely resonates with you... here is a very small clue, completely free of charge...
The devs do this work for their own reasons. Some do it for the challenge, some do it for fun, some do it because they want something different, some do it for the glory. However, they all share it and make the results of their hard work available for the benefit of us end user types. Many even provide free support and hand holding, answering the same questions over and over.
You can politely ask for things to change. If you structure your request well enough and it makes sense, some devs may see the benefit and change. Others will not. Trying to dictate standards of documentation, presentation, features, or packaging just is not going to work, and quite frankly why should it. They are not doing it for you, you are just benefiting as a side effect of them being willing to release their work.
I am sure if you were willing to pay regular software developer rates for a particular feature set, you could find folks willing to accommodate you. Unless you are willing to do that, consider that you already get far more than you pay for.
rydr1 said:
OP, good idea, but not everyone may think like you, including the DEVs. There is nothing wrong with what you are stating, but it has been mentioned before that different DEVs want to work on different things; some people want to be unique.
One more thing, can you please not use the word should so much, please?
My wife uses it all the time..."you should clean this" " you should go here" " you should say this". thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm Vietnamese and my English is not good. I just know saying " you should do something" is better than saying "you have to do something" or "you must to do something"
ice_prophecy said:
Isn't this request cramping developer's style?
Yes that is what you may want. But at the end of the day, they are doing it out of their enjoyment. It's their project and they have free reign on what they do and when they do it. Out of shear good will developers share. Its not up to us to make requests on how things should be. Our roles is to be supportive and grateful for their contributions.
That's not to say your ideas aren't valid... perhaps just not entirely feasible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I guess we should also stop giving developers suggestions and bug reports, because who wants to fix bugs for enjoyment? I disagree quite a lot with your post; it is in fact our role to make requests. How are ROMs supposed to get better without the input of its users? You completely contradict yourself by saying that we should not "make requests" but we should "be supportive," because by making requests, you are being supportive. By trying to better the project, you are being far more supportive than a silent user.
It's not like funbacon's suggestion has malicious intent. Neither is he trying to dictate what devs should and should not do. You don't have to agree with all of his points, but dismissing the whole thing because of one point, or the fact that he referenced the iPhone, is stupid. It's a suggestion, which most of you have said is a good idea, yet don't think it should be incorporated because... of the vocabulary used? Or maybe it's some other reason, but I have yet to see another valid reason.
Will this work in practice? That's another discussion. But I believe having some standards and general guidelines will be immensely helpful and make it simpler to try different ROMs.
Rydr1, you need counseling. Or a divorce.
bjtheone said:
Well I for one salute the OP for finally taking a stand and telling the devs what we really want. After all it is all about ME and what I want and they should bloody well be grateful that I even bother to tell them what is wrong with their work, and they should fix it faster. I am a busy guy and can't be bothered to figure out this stuff for myself....
If any of that even vaguely resonates with you... here is a very small clue, completely free of charge...
The devs do this work for their own reasons. Some do it for the challenge, some do it for fun, some do it because they want something different, some do it for the glory. However, they all share it and make the results of their hard work available for the benefit of us end user types. Many even provide free support and hand holding, answering the same questions over and over.
You can politely ask for things to change. If you structure your request well enough and it makes sense, some devs may see the benefit and change. Others will not. Trying to dictate standards of documentation, presentation, features, or packaging just is not going to work, and quite frankly why should it. They are not doing it for you, you are just benefiting as a side effect of them being willing to release their work.
I am sure if you were willing to pay regular software developer rates for a particular feature set, you could find folks willing to accommodate you. Unless you are willing to do that, consider that you already get far more than you pay for.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So... all the developers here make ROMs for themselves, but are nice enough to post it for everyone else to use?
Wow, haha. What a distorted view you have there. (Most?) developers aren't as selfish as you think they are. Developers make ROMs so the people who visit this forum can benefit from them, or at least that's the general reason. Why do you think they release updates often to fix bugs or add new functionality, or address issues and suggestions brought up by users?
Or, if I were to look at it from your point of view: users are just tools that devs use to make their ROM better.
Yeah, no. You shouldn't think so lowly of devs here. They should be appreciated, you know.
1.I will say that i've had android since day 1 and funbacon was around at that time to. helping and making changes himself to certain roms and apks etc...and helped other people, so he shouldnt be treated as a noob that doesnt know what he is talking about or that he is whining because that is not the case.
2. He made a suggestion that has to do with development and posted in the correct spot and he still hears **** from it? when there are people posting in deveoplment forums that has nothing to do it " what rom is the best, or what phone should i buy" and they dont get as much **** as your handing to someone that made a DEVELOPMENT suggestion and a good one. in the correct section. so people shouldnt be downing him for his work/suggestions
p.s funbacon...nice to see you around again
funbacon said:
I'm Vietnamese and my English is not good. I just know saying " you should do something" is better than saying "you have to do something" or "you must to do something"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, funbacon, you took it wrong. Im just kidding about using that word. there is nothing wrong with you using it, there is something wrong with my wife using it.
I was just adding a little fun to the thread.
Ok guys, it's been brought to my attention that my post was
1. Cantankerous.
2. Seemingly disrespectful of devs great work on here.
3. Taken too seriously for being an internet forum.
I would like to say sorry, and explain what I mean I tihnk it would be awesome to pull together the necessary funding for our very talented developers to create an XDA exclusive, completely original ROM. I'm not sure if it is possible, but something that is just for the Thunderbolt alone and isn't sense, isn't AOSP, isn't MIUI, and DEFINITELY not like Motorboat... I mean Motorblur. I think we really are on to something with the work that the Dev's are doing with taking different roms and porting them/using other roms as bases and then building from them; lets see what we can do to completely change the way that this stuff is done(if possible) by polling ideas(not unreasonable wishlists) and putting it all together. Possibly coordinating between Team BAMF, Chingy, and some other the other recognized DEV's.
What does everyone else think?
htcdesirezgeorge said:
I'm not sure if it is possible, but something that is just for the Thunderbolt alone and isn't sense, isn't AOSP, isn't MIUI, and DEFINITELY not like Motorboat...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it isn't sense/blur/touchwiz, it is AOSP. Miui is just modified AOSP (with no sources given back), just like all the other roms not sense/blur/touchwiz are also based on AOSP. You do know what AOSP means right? Android Open Source Project as in the android operation system that is the basis to all android phones just modded by the OEMs. What you're asking is similar to saying:
"Hey, I'm bored with linux, unix, osx and windows, can we make a new operating system totally not based on any of those for our computers?"
Perhaps rephrase your question one more time in a way that makes more sense? Third time is a winner
yareally said:
If it isn't sense/blur/touchwiz, it is AOSP. Miui is just modified AOSP (with no sources given back), just like all the other roms not sense/blur/touchwiz are also based on AOSP. You do know what AOSP means right? Android Open Source Project as in the android operation system that is the basis to all android phones just modded by the OEMs. What you're asking is similar to saying:
"Hey, I'm bored with linux, unix, osx and windows, can we make a new operating system totally not based on any of those for our computers?"
Perhaps rephrase your question one more time in a way that makes more sense? Third time is a winner
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ya got a point, I actually didn't know that! BUT, regardless of how its phrased, what do ya think it would require to do somethig like I mentioned? I, personally would love to see something excitingly new put out here. Like with the miui project, any chance of people putting their heads together to figure it out?
You've got OS's and you have UI's. Obviously it is entirely possible to custom build a UI, but its FAR more difficult than porting one over or mixing and mashing parts of Sense together. UberBAMF is definitely something new and out of the box. That's more radical than anything I ever expected... Or have ever seen elsewhere. UIs do a lot to sell a device, so its worth it for HTC or Samsung to invest in building one. Not so much for a team of volunteer devs.
htcdesirezgeorge said:
Ya got a point, I actually didn't know that! BUT, regardless of how its phrased, what do ya think it would require to do somethig like I mentioned? I, personally would love to see something excitingly new put out here. Like with the miui project, any chance of people putting their heads together to figure it out?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Chances are unlikely to get a new user interface geared to only one phone built from the ground up from the android source by a team for a few reasons:
1) Lack of like-minded (knowledgeable) developers for one device that are currently free. Developers are very opinionated (just from my own experience even if they don't want to admit it). What should/shouldn't go into it would be a mess to deal with and debate alone, especially since the opinions of developers are generally not the same as those that don't develop. The ones already developing most likely don't want to give up their current projects as well. Basically, the developers that want to develop already have their projects and most treat them like it's their "baby" and most likely not willing to give them up or put them on hold. That moves into issue #2
2) Time. It would take considerable amount of time and organization to do that. Probably to get something stable that's original would take longer than most people would keep their Thunderbolt. Guys that work on their phones do this part time for fun as well and that combined with other side projects would press for time.
3) True developers & designers. There's a big difference between hacking some already made stuff to work with things and actually writing object oriented software from scratch. Obviously some guys putting stuff out for the thunderbolt are true developers that code professionally and others are just hacking around making things work done by others. Both have their uses, but you need real development for something like this and I don't think there's enough of those willing.
Forgot to add that the only way change happens is to build interest, so don't let my pessimistic observations detour anyone from posting their thoughts and ideas in this thread
https://github.com/richardtrip/GT-P6200-kernel
i found this on google.. is the owner here?
where can i find the built kernel?
looks like he's using the overclocking stuff from garyd9 kernel.
i expect he would release something here. I hope. man this would be sweet. Richard if you're reading this how about custom bootanimation.zip's at some point and init.d support. Thanks!!!!!!
I think he's working with acolwill on testing and releasing. He's apparently a little more aggressive than garyd9 about blind development (I don't blame gary for this - blind dev is a high-risk process, I've been avoiding it even though the I777/I9100 differences are less than your P6200/P6210 differences.). Sometimes the problem is finding a tester whose technical skills you can trust. e.g. someone you KNOW can fix their device if it goes wrong without handholding.
Sometimes kernels show up on github and are never released as binaries - such as arighi's work.
Wow... that's really flattering to see some of my commits copied to another kernel! That made my day. I do wish he'd have taken the time to drop a message to me... just a "fyi" type thing, but that's not a big deal.
I've done recovery blind for other devices, but I can screw up all kinds of things and recovery will still work.
However, normal boot kernels are an entirely different can of worms, and there are a LOT of things that might break on these tablets. In addition, I don't have any of the 3g models, so I would have no possible way to diagnose if things went wrong with the modem. Others might be willing to tinker there. I'm not.
Take care
Gary
Yeah, I recommended that one guy from VillainROM IRC chat with you about P6200 support (he's competent enough to unfuck his device if something goes wrong without handholding), but I guess somehow he got hooked up with richardtrip.
garyd9 said:
Wow... that's really flattering to see some of my commits copied to another kernel! That made my day. I do wish he'd have taken the time to drop a message to me... just a "fyi" type thing, but that's not a big deal.
I've done recovery blind for other devices, but I can screw up all kinds of things and recovery will still work.
However, normal boot kernels are an entirely different can of worms, and there are a LOT of things that might break on these tablets. In addition, I don't have any of the 3g models, so I would have no possible way to diagnose if things went wrong with the modem. Others might be willing to tinker there. I'm not.
Take care
Gary
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
maybe its not working yet.. that's why its not in the forum anyway.. i asked a friend to help to compile it(since idk how to.. ).. will try it when he's done..
Entropy512 said:
Yeah, I recommended that one guy from VillainROM IRC chat with you about P6200 support (he's competent enough to unfuck his device if something goes wrong without handholding), but I guess somehow he got hooked up with richardtrip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IRC with me? I haven't used IRC since... sometime in the early 90's, I think ... Perhaps in PM?
If there was someone with a p6200 that wanted to take on kernel development (and was technically able), I'd be happy to give them a hand. Chances are good that they'd be able to get the samsung code, manually bring over my changes to the defconfig and create their own initramfs - and it'd just work. Honestly, the hardest parts to get started are the defconfig and ramdisk. The rest of the kernel changes are really optional to start with.
Of course, "technically able" implies that they'd be doing 99% of the work, and I'd just have to nudge them in the proper direction (as has been done with me.)
Gary
I told him to PM you and say I sent you... I chat with him on IRC.
I still don't know how Pershoot manages to support 4 Tab 10.1 variants - that guy is insane.
Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk
So exciting
http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/0...rnel-source-code-including-that-of-the-one-v/
EDIT: http://dl4.htc.com/RomCode/Source_and_Binaries/doubleshot-gb-crc-2.6.35-f3a1982.tar.gz
Sent from my DoubleShot Lite using Tapatalk 2
ac3theone said:
so exciting
http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/0...rnel-source-code-including-that-of-the-one-v/
sent from my doubleshot lite using tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssss
Soo.... Does anyone think we could see some pure AOSP action now? Or someone could update the kernel for CM7? As you will see in general someone -whom I suspect is not alone - would love an AOSP ROM on our HTC Doubleshot.
Maybe this kernel isn't that good as we suppose...
Nusferatu said:
Maybe this kernel isn't that good as we suppose...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well.... What did u expect? we don't have an ICS ROM in our future that we have been made aware of, and it is truly great news as this is something that has made many a dev stray away from this device - now we might be able to get CM7 stable - and others to work off of CM7 such as blahblah
Good news nevertheless
We need to get CM7 STABLE ASAP
We may be late in the running, but that doesn't mean we still can't get merged into the main tree
Nusferatu said:
Maybe this kernel isn't that good as we suppose...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its worse than you thought... The source code was released a really long time ago. This is just an updated kernel, so the real reason for lack of development isn't because the source code wasn't available. :/
michaelmab88 said:
Its worse than you thought... The source code was released a really long time ago. This is just an updated kernel, so the real reason for lack of development isn't because the source code wasn't available. :/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Updated source is awesome though. Tried to get it earlier and couldn't - can't on shift and will be working straight until Friday afternoon so won't have a chance to try again for a few days.
Any percieved lack of development is due to people not putting any effort into it - everyone who cries about a lack of development should do something about it instead of waiting for someone else to do so.
Why come here if you don't want to get into dev, worse, come here and complain about yourself not doing anything? Kinda silly.
Whenever I see people complain about a lack of development I wonder why they would basically make fun of themselves? It gives me a laugh at their expense...
Sent from a digital distance.
Yeah i just got the source downloaded because it matches the new ota I'm running now, I've never seen what a dual core source looks like, or if I'll even be able to compile a kernel for this device, I've only compiled a few for the EVO shift, which was straight forward with a little help from my boy drob...who knows o may get it to boot ha-ha.......nope I fudged something in my toolchain It's broke....again.....LOL
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
strapped365 said:
Yeah i just got the source downloaded because it matches the new ota I'm running now, I've never seen what a dual core source looks like, or if I'll even be able to compile a kernel for this device, I've only compiled a few for the EVO shift, which was straight forward with a little help from my boy drob...who knows o may get it to boot ha-ha
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62701184/arm-eabi-4.4.3.zip
That link is for the toolchain you need, i've been hosting it on dropbox for a while until I get it over to a more permanent host.
I can walk you through it later if you want.
I have it written up on how to set up your linux environment and make changes, including versioning instructions, just haven't found the time to polish off a part of it and add it to the dev reference yet.
Got a whole space reserved for the how to from start to finish on making kernels for the doubleshot, and i've already walked people through it with no kernel dev experience so if you've done it for another device it'll be a cakewalk.
I'm eating breakfast now and gotta run out to another job, and going straight from there to dodgeball practice, then work again tonight and from there right to the job i'm about to do again tomorrow this time, so tomorrow night i'm doubtless going to sleep - maybe as early as saturday evening I could go through it with you on IRC if you are interested.
Otherwise I hope to have that in the dev ref next week, work permitting.
Blue6IX said:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62701184/arm-eabi-4.4.3.zip
That link is for the toolchain you need, i've been hosting it on dropbox for a while until I get it over to a more permanent host.
I can walk you through it later if you want.
I have it written up on how to set up your linux environment and make changes, including versioning instructions, just haven't found the time to polish off a part of it and add it to the dev reference yet.
Got a whole space reserved for the how to from start to finish on making kernels for the doubleshot, and i've already walked people through it with no kernel dev experience so if you've done it for another device it'll be a cakewalk.
I'm eating breakfast now and gotta run out to another job, and going straight from there to dodgeball practice, then work again tonight and from there right to the job i'm about to do again tomorrow this time, so tomorrow night i'm doubtless going to sleep - maybe as early as saturday evening I could go through it with you on IRC if you are interested.
Otherwise I hope to have that in the dev ref next week, work permitting.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I might have my little one on Saturday night so that maybe a no go for then, the tool chain I currently have is 4.4.1, because anything newer for the speedy breaks a ton during the compile.....I changed some commands around for ****s and giggles and got a zimage in arch/arm/boot so I split it with the ota ramdisk and I'm just gonna try....if that goes south I'll setup your tool chain....thanks blue your like the DoubleShot dictionary....
Also I'm gonna grab one of your kernel zips for test flashes if that's ok
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
Blue6IX said:
Updated source is awesome though. Tried to get it earlier and couldn't - can't on shift and will be working straight until Friday afternoon so won't have a chance to try again for a few days.
Any percieved lack of development is due to people not putting any effort into it - everyone who cries about a lack of development should do something about it instead of waiting for someone else to do so.
Why come here if you don't want to get into dev, worse, come here and complain about yourself not doing anything? Kinda silly.
Whenever I see people complain about a lack of development I wonder why they would basically make fun of themselves? It gives me a laugh at their expense...
Sent from a digital distance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey I'm not complaining, and I am working on it! I just have to balance between school and work and learning how to build cm7/cm9 from source.
You can check out a little bit of what I've been working on github.com/mafischer
michaelmab88 said:
Hey I'm not complaining, and I am working on it! I just have to balance between school and work and learning how to build cm7/cm9 from source.
You can check out a little bit of what I've been working on github.com/mafischer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol no worries my friend, was a general comment and not aimed at you in particular, just a perspective I wanted to put out there and you were the first opportunity to do so.
I still haven't found the time to get git set up and learn how to use it - that whole life getting in the way of living thing. Given you have git going that makes you a more responsible dev then I in my book -
@ strapped: all my work available is a contribution to the open source community at large, and the members of XDA in particular. If any of it can be useful, especially as a teaching tool, I wholeheartedly encourage it!
Sent from a digital distance.
Where did all of you come from?
Never knew there was this many people working on the Doubleshot in the background...
gtmaster303 said:
Where did all of you come from?
Never knew there was this many people working on the Doubleshot in the background...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been here since i preordered my doubleshot... I just haven't had time to work on much of anything, so there's no point in advertising to the community that I'm gonna work on things that may or may not ever get finished. I don't want to spread false hope or anything.
I am however, graduating in may; I'm going to be working over at walmart isd for a summer internship, and I should have more time on my hands once school is over!
How integrated is the Sense stuff into the kernel? As I understand it, we've had trouble removing the Sense underpinnings from the operating system to get it working with things such as Sixaxis. I'm aware that this is entirely a lack of understanding on my part.
I would quite love to get involved in building a ROM myself, perhaps even setting up CM9 from scratch. I just have no idea how to get started. I've mucked around with custom kernels and embedded linux (not android) devices in the past, but I'm not sure how that knowledge would apply to this system. I also have no history of proper programming languages or anything like that. I'm vaguely familiar with how to compile things with the ARM toolchains.
I'm also a tad nervous about bricking the device by writing to a memory location that I really shouldn't be touching.
Kanerix said:
How integrated is the Sense stuff into the kernel? As I understand it, we've had trouble removing the Sense underpinnings from the operating system to get it working with things such as Sixaxis. I'm aware that this is entirely a lack of understanding on my part.
I would quite love to get involved in building a ROM myself, perhaps even setting up CM9 from scratch. I just have no idea how to get started. I've mucked around with custom kernels and embedded linux (not android) devices in the past, but I'm not sure how that knowledge would apply to this system. I also have no history of proper programming languages or anything like that. I'm vaguely familiar with how to compile things with the ARM toolchains.
I'm also a tad nervous about bricking the device by writing to a memory location that I really shouldn't be touching.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry for quoting the whole post just to address one thing, but in regards to sixaxis I'm sure it's a safe bet that if one were to simply replace the stock bluetooth stack with the one kornyone used for cm7 in my bulletproof rom it would work fine, and I doubt much other, if any modification would be necessary.
I haven't had time to try, and truthfully i'd rather build my own so am kinda intentionally not trying - I am more interested in the project then just jumping into a solution.
It really depends on what you are trying to do - some sense things can be replaced with relatively little effort, other things are so interwoven it would take considerable effort and time to unravel, reverse engineer and implement a new solution.
A lot of people have been working on different parts of unravelling sense since back in august, and around the middle of that month we got s-off and really started digging in.
There is a considerable knowledge base lurking here to address this kind of stuff if people make it known they are working on things - dig back through the history of the device here at XDA and you can catch a glimpse of it and get some direction on who you can approach when you hit a roadblock, depending on what kind of roadblock it is.
It's better for us as a community to have that kind of knowledge out on the public forum, but there's much more here then what face value suggests.
I've been trying to get that kind of stuff and a general 'start here' knowledge base built in the developers reference stickied here in dev, reading through that would be a good place to start getting oriented on devving for the dubleshot.
I just go through some crazy work cycles and sometimes can't be around much for a time here and ther, so my contributions come in groups and gaps.
Sent from a digital distance.
michaelmab88 said:
I've been here since i preordered my doubleshot... I just haven't had time to work on much of anything, so there's no point in advertising to the community that I'm gonna work on things that may or may not ever get finished. I don't want to spread false hope or anything.
I am however, graduating in may; I'm going to be working over at walmart isd for a summer internship, and I should have more time on my hands once school is over!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't matter whether or not you finish. Status updates would be nice though. At least that way people can know what you're up to, and they may even be able to help you and vice versa.
No one here is demanding an ETA or even a completion at all. We're all in for the fun of it.
Either way I think I can safely speak for everyone when I say, we're excited to see what you got cooking
Blue6IX said:
Sorry for quoting the whole post just to address one thing, but in regards to sixaxis I'm sure it's a safe bet that if one were to simply replace the stock bluetooth stack with the one kornyone used for cm7 in my bulletproof rom it would work fine, and I doubt much other, if any modification would be necessary.
I haven't had time to try, and truthfully i'd rather build my own so am kinda intentionally not trying - I am more interested in the project then just jumping into a solution.
It really depends on what you are trying to do - some sense things can be replaced with relatively little effort, other things are so interwoven it would take considerable effort and time to unravel, reverse engineer and implement a new solution.
A lot of people have been working on different parts of unravelling sense since back in august, and around the middle of that month we got s-off and really started digging in.
There is a considerable knowledge base lurking here to address this kind of stuff if people make it known they are working on things - dig back through the history of the device here at XDA and you can catch a glimpse of it and get some direction on who you can approach when you hit a roadblock, depending on what kind of roadblock it is.
It's better for us as a community to have that kind of knowledge out on the public forum, but there's much more here then what face value suggests.
I've been trying to get that kind of stuff and a general 'start here' knowledge base built in the developers reference stickied here in dev, reading through that would be a good place to start getting oriented on devving for the dubleshot.
I just go through some crazy work cycles and sometimes can't be around much for a time here and ther, so my contributions come in groups and gaps.
Sent from a digital distance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been trying to go through the dev reference that you posted and track down as much scattered information as I can, but I'm still not quite sure what I'm doing. Alas.
Regarding bluetooth: would the gingerbread stack be compatible with ICS?
gtmaster303 said:
It doesn't matter whether or not you finish. Status updates would be nice though. At least that way people can know what you're up to, and they may even be able to help you and vice versa.
No one here is demanding an ETA or even a completion at all. We're all in for the fun of it.
Either way I think I can safely speak for everyone when I say, we're excited to see what you got cooking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well what I'm currently up to is making a stable version of cm7 for the doubleshot. I have made lots of progress as far as learning all the tools necessary to compile android from source, which is a relatively simple task. The not so simple part is trying to put together like a puzzle, the source code from other devices. I've hit some roadblocks and I'm currently asking some devs for help, but while I'm at it I guess I can ask for help here on xda.
michaelmab88 said:
Well what I'm currently up to is making a stable version of cm7 for the doubleshot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeehaaa!
Hello, I'd like to preface this post by saying it's not my goal to accuse anyone of anything or start a flame war. I'm genuinely curious, and just want some open discussion.
I've been confused recently by an undercurrent of resentment or ill-will in the development section. Dev's threads getting closed or deleted for not getting permission to use this or that in their ROM, snide remarks about their abilities in the ROM release thread, long rambling posts about "haters," etc.
What's with this? From my perspective, it almost looks like developers think they should have the right to post edits/changes to HTC's software and framework without permission, but then turn around and say nobody else can build upon their edits without permission.
I firmly believe in giving credit where credit is due, but isn't it a bit counter-productive and even hypocritical to have threads taken down because another dev says "hey I didn't say you could use that!" Isn't XDA built upon the fact that HTC and other manufacturers turn a blind eye to us using and altering their work and releasing the altered product without permission? What am I missing here?
Just to reiterate one more time: I'm not trying to be accusatory, I just honestly want to understand the other side of this argument and why this behavior is being tolerated around here. Thanks!
I agree with you.....but
There has been a few ROMs posted here, that are completely 'kanged' from someone elses ROM.. Now i know the ROM is based of HTC so we all should do as we wish with it, But when someone has spent a lot of time ironing out bugs, adding tweaks and generally reducing the size and making the ROM better... And then someone steals that, changes the build.prop to change the ROMs name and release it as their own is totally out of order..
Now not to mention any names, but this has been done several times since the release of this phone, Its this sort of behaviour that puts serious Developers off the idea of making this phone better for us all..
Majority of the Devs here hardly get paid for what they do, I doubt they receive enough in donations to jack there job and do this full time.. So wouldnt you be annoyed if someone stole your work ? and every one was giving you credit and thanks and donations, Even though those credits / donations belong to someone else ?
We should SHARE in this community, The majority of us do, However we should NOT KANG other peoples work..
Im a big kanger, i kang 3-4 ROMs together, Using bits i like from each ROM and use it as my daily driver, However I would not dream of releasing it as it goes against everything i stand for..
Great discussion you have right here man.
If you don't ask permission for work you can't use the ROM/files etc.
What sucks is if you PM the developer they still say "No" so what is a win win in this situation? People like the word "kanging". It's not kanging at all because none of these files were made by you! All of these files were made by HTC and there Team! Don't claim anything !
So what about leedroids ROM ?? None of his tweaks came built into the HTC ROM, Hes made them himself.. Would you just take his work even if he said no ??
That my friend is KANGING.
EDIT: You say
What sucks is if you PM the developer they still say "No" so what is a win win in this situation?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Surely the win win situation is to put the effort in and make these mods / tweaks yourself ?? If a Dev says no, He doesnt mean, sneakily take it and rename it.
azzledazzle said:
So what about leedroids ROM ?? None of his tweaks came built into the HTC ROM, Hes made them himself.. Would you just take his work even if he said no ??
That my friend is KANGING.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I never said that.
I'm just saying. Don't call your work yours because how about if HTC said "Nobody can use our ROM's a base" then if we use it we get sued.
Half of the ROM's are just built of there base with tons of modified things and they still get stuff from other people about "kanging" even with permission etc.
If you don't ask permission for work you can't use the ROM/files etc.
Whats getting you hot and bothered ?? No one here has mentioned your name in any of this, Unless you have a guilty conscience ??
Surely HTC make the ROM and it clearly states 'Do not distribute outside of HTC blabla legal action' Yet every ROM here did so in theory we are all kangers..
But what about android in General ? AOSP / AOKP / MIUI.. all built from scratch.. The effort and hard work Devs put in to make these ROMs work, Surely taking their work and using it without permission is wrong ? wouldn't you agree ?
That's life but I think the people should relax a bit more.
Until Lee's ROM there were only Stock ROMs with some improvement's and tweaks by he_stheone64.
Lee (a great and maybe the best dev) now included any tweaks which available.
But remember that he "only ported" the things from Jan (j4n87 or so is his name).
In fact the whole developement story is just kanging.- Kanging the release's of the company..
azzledazzle said:
Whats getting you hot and bothered ?? No one here has mentioned your name in any of this, Unless you have a guilty conscience ??
Surely HTC make the ROM and it clearly states 'Do not distribute outside of HTC blabla legal action' Yet every ROM here did so in theory we are all kangers..
But what about android in General ? AOSP / AOKP / MIUI.. all built from scratch.. The effort and hard work Devs put in to make these ROMs work, Surely taking their work and using it without permission is wrong ? wouldn't you agree ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not saying anything o-o.
I'll take that I'll take that that's a good thing and great way to say it! Even the HBoot says it yet people make S-OFF etc.
Agree 100% Actually Azzle! Right on
I don't think it is a matter of developers not wanting other developers to use there work- it is the fact that they didn't ask! Alot of work goes into making these Roms- it takes less than a min to send a pm- I know - i've done it
zylith said:
I don't think it is a matter of developers not wanting other developers to use there work- it is the fact that they didn't ask! Alot of work goes into making these Roms- it takes less than a min to send a pm- I know - i've done it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Love it
irony?
Anyway, hope this thread won't get to a ***** fight, I won't post in this one anymore..
zylith said:
I don't think it is a matter of developers not wanting other developers to use there work- it is the fact that they didn't ask! Alot of work goes into making these Roms- it takes less than a min to send a pm- I know - i've done it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. We're all a huge team/community just making our own ROMs and putting our personal touches to them. It's not about doing something and achieving something, and not wanting to share. Getting permission to use is all that's really required.
No need to fight over this stuff guys....it's just a mistake that can be fixed. No biggie. Just follow the proper procedures and avoid unnecessary run-ins like this. Let's focus on giving the community what they want....and that's options!!!
itsmikeramsay said:
Agreed. We're all a huge team/community just making our own ROMs and putting our personal touches to them. It's not about doing something and achieving something, and not wanting to share. Getting permission to use is all that's really required.
No need to fight over this stuff guys....it's just a mistake that can be fixed. No biggie. Just follow the proper procedures and avoid unnecessary run-ins like this. Let's focus on giving the community what they want....and that's options!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well put.
Not a dev, but been around awhile
On the HTC side--my impression is they don't mind these kangs, even back to the N1. Hence they allow unlocking. They monitor these forums and look for the improvements by the devs to help them also.
Now, that is just my understanding from xda posts I have read going back 2 years on this topic, I may be wrong--
Otherwise, 100% support for asking first and giving credit to original devs--
Ken
rugmankc said:
Not a dev, but been around awhile
On the HTC side--my impression is they don't mind these kangs, even back to the N1. Hence they allow unlocking. They monitor these forums and look for the improvements by the devs to help them also.
Now, that is just my understanding from xda posts I have read going back 2 years on this topic, I may be wrong--
Otherwise, 100% support for asking first and giving credit to original devs--
Ken
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly.
Sent from ICS device!
Thanks for the replies. It makes sense to ask permission first before using others' work- only common courtesy I appreciate the different thoughts on this. Helps to understand where this stuff is coming from. Hopefully this doesn't become a downward spiral of devs having ill-will towards each other and refusing to work together.
Also, I never said HTC was against this community or what it does- only that it seemed hypocritical from some devs to take their work, alter it, and then actively try to stop others from building upon that.
shinkinrui said:
Thanks for the replies. It makes sense to ask permission first before using others' work- only common courtesy I appreciate the different thoughts on this. Helps to understand where this stuff is coming from. Hopefully this doesn't become a downward spiral of devs having ill-will towards each other and refusing to work together.
Also, I never said HTC was against this community or what it does- only that it seemed hypocritical from some devs to take their work, alter it, and then actively try to stop others from building upon that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would hope this brings us closer together- I am new to the dev world- but have been around xda for years. I have no ill will towards ANYONE. Hell people make mistakes- I make mistakes- fix the problem - then move on. We are here for each-other.
=
with relation to Htc themselves..im still in shock they havent implemented some of the modifications that xda or devs in general have come up with
htc need to be hiring some of the devs..if only to get rid of the nasty status bar they insist on keeping..in some ways i think they are doing it on purpose just to grate people!
look at the one s source for example..many people have complained and its still not released lol..i think they are just laughing at us
Those are not devs, they are just "devs" if you know what I mean
This is my view, Android is open source right? I mean I agree 100% Give credit where it is due but the thing is, we don't give credit to HTC for the rom base every time. It seems like when a system UI for example is modified, i don't see the issue that if you give them credit why do you have to ask them? Did we ask HTC if we can Mod their system UI? I mean its not like it was ours in the first place. It seems all over rated. If you say Hey thanks John Doe for the Blah blah blah then it shouldn't be an issue. That is one thing that can really put a damper on Development.
Look at the situation with people getting mad at HTC for having the HTC Evita (ATT One X) Having a locked bootloader! some of the devs and people here think they are entitled to these things.
Another Example, The HTC Ruby (Amaze 4G) S-off situation. HTC gives them an unlocked bootloader and they Demand S-off from them. I mean where does they hypocrisy end.
Basically, I believe that if dev's are going to request people to ask them first. I want the Dev's to call up htc before they make a rom, in addition to putting "Huge thanks to HTC for the rom base!" In their threads. Its open source, if they want it closed source then I advise the call apple and develop for them.
azzledazzle said:
Whats getting you hot and bothered ?? No one here has mentioned your name in any of this, Unless you have a guilty conscience ??
Surely HTC make the ROM and it clearly states 'Do not distribute outside of HTC blabla legal action' Yet every ROM here did so in theory we are all kangers..
But what about android in General ? AOSP / AOKP / MIUI.. all built from scratch.. The effort and hard work Devs put in to make these ROMs work, Surely taking their work and using it without permission is wrong ? wouldn't you agree ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
His response doesn't sound like he's hot or bothered at all. Looks like you're the one catching feelings
Sent from my Sensation using xda premium