Related
Let's talk about the Touch Pro performance.
I will post some quotes.
branko.savic said:
Ok, so just to be fair I did some more testings on all three of my devices to find the optimal settings, here is the results:
Test performed on same video, with coreplayer 1.2.5, and optimal settings for each device:
Omnia:
Raw framebuffer: 442.74%
Universal:
Direct Draw: 165.28%
Touch Pro:
QTv display: 152.44%
Smooth Zoom and Dither turned off on each device!
So in conclusion, again Omnia wins by a huge 277.46% over the next best device that is the Universal. And even then the Universal is 12.84% better then the Touch Pro!
Please bare in mind that the Universal is a three years old device with only 64MB ram, while Touch pro is brand new and 288MB ram! They have same clock speed but Touch pro is supposed to have a better/newer chipset then the Universal!
There is no doubt in my mind anymore, Touch pro is missing the video drivers, or could it just be that qualcomm chipset just sucks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DSF said:
poor directdraw, framebuffer/video performance. Just to make an idea: an old device from 2005 with omap 850 200mhz CPU performs better in this area than the touch pro @ qualcomm 528mhz. what a shame. The test were done in this topic (in romanian, sorry). CorePlayer was used for benchmark. I will summarize.
- HTC Tornado overclocked (262Mhz) max performance: 174.22%
- Touch Pro max performance: 172,67%
Both in Raw framebuffer mode. When used QTV it gains only 162,64%. How come?
It's pitty, 262Mhz from OMAP performs better than 528!!!Mhz from Qualcomm?!
The video used for tests is this one. (320x240 @ 25FPS)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what do you think? Are the qualcomm chipsets just junk or we got poor drivers? Personally, I was hoping that HTC did learn something after the HTC TyTN II issues..
Another prove of sh*ty graphics on touch pro: Touch Pro landscape redraw issue (videos included)
Furthermore I would like to make some recommendations to see the true performance of touch pro:
- Rats!! http://clickgamer.com/download.htm?pvid=15358
- Ubulis TSE http://www.ionfx.com/product_windows_mobile_obulisTSE.htm (note the req: "200Mhz CPU or higher"
- Spore
- Prince of Persia HD
- Assasin Creed HD
- etc.
Wonderfull, the graphics are so fluid... NOT.
How about GL benchmarks between the iPhone, Kaiser, Raphael, and Toshiba G810 Portege?
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....ser)&D3=HTC Touch Pro&D4=Toshiba G810 Portege
A lot of it is the quality of HTC's drivers since the Portege does better, but the rest is Qualcomm's fault because even the Protege is inferior compared to an iPhone, N95, etc etc.
However, I cannot find a better phone that has a decent 3D chip on it, has at&t 3G, touch screen, and isn't NDA locked.
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Keep me wondering!
NuShrike, Touch Pro has a newer CPU that the one found on Toshiba G810 Portege, however, the benchmarks are still unsatisfying.
Here's some interesting information
Q: HTC, Qualcomm and the missing drivers—where do we send the angry mob with torches?
A: Qualcomm has a tiered pricing policy with their chipsets—so although you bought the chip, you have not bought all the features. So you have to pay additional fees per phone to get things like aGPS, graphic acceleration, etc.
In the past, HTC had no problems when using the older MSM-6500 chips (ARM9 processors) without drivers hence their reluctance to pay for any or additional support with the new MSM-7500 chips (ARM11 processors), especially since the newer processors were advertised to match or outperform the older generation.
Unfortunately, Qualcomm’s ARM11 performance does not match their previous ARM9 processor and is therefore, not quite as advertised. To get the proper performance out of the ARM11, one has to have knowledge of the processor’s implementation and design, but since that processor is not publicly available; the solution requires cooperation and assistance. HTC in this instance does not have this knowledge and is therefore unable to directly fix the problem, so they are put in a tough situation as they already have millions of these devices sold but they don’t want to pay Qualcomm more than they have to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Full article: http://wmexperts.com/articles/editorials/qualcomm_htc_chipsets_and_feat.html
And here we've got a comparison between touch pro and dell axim v51v (a VGA PocketPC from year 2005).
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....whide=true&D1=HTC Touch Pro&D2=Dell Axim X51v
(I've bold the VGA because there are some users that are trying to find excuses of poor performance because of VGA resolution)
branko.savic said:
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Keep me wondering!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because Qualcomm owns wcdma! Anyone developing chipsets will have to pay them royalties which in the end increases cost of the chips and handsets.
branko.savic said:
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They probably make their hardware really cheap compared to other solutions.
There aren't many others (or at all) that package 3G WCDMA, asymmetric dual-core ARM11/ARM9, GPS, (WiFi?), BT?, and 3D GPU all into one at a pretty good power envelope.
The problem sounds like it's $$$ to access any of Q's advanced features, and they're not even that good.
Funny part is the CPU design was licensed from ARM in 2002 and is only hitting mainstream last year with the Kaiser/N95. However, it seems Qualcomm never licensed FPU capable ARM11 design, versus TI (N95 cpu) and Samsung (iPhone cpu) whom did.
If the video issue was the only problem...
Sometime it really annoys me how poor can perform... When I was thinking to switch from my HTC Tornado (TI OMAP 850 CPU (180Mhz)) I was saying the performance difference must be enormous , but I find that those qualcomm CPUs are crap or the drivers sucks.. (but I tend to think it's the first variant). I really want that my device to perform well while listening to music, not to wait 1-2 sec for Start Menu to appear (atention, Start Menu, not Programs list, while scrolling in that list the things are so laggy, but that's a WM issue, so I pass. I've got a lot of apps installed)
I'm really dissapointed of crappy performance. My first and last qualcomm cpu-enabled device. If I know that before buying... but no one complains of this, all worship it (for eg, see gsmarena review).
An advice for interested people in buying Touch Pro: if you want a good device PASS touch pro.
It simply doesn't deserve it's price. It has a lot of super nice features (5 row qwerty, plenty of RAM, good amount of ROM, accelerometer, multiple sensors, good shape, superb VGA resolution, HSPDA, etc etc) but has soo many issues (low volume, crap speakerphone/earpiece, music gap, slider play, gps lag, poor directdraw performance, landscape redraw issue, poor overall system performance..)
I really expected way much more from a 2008 year device and especially from HTC!
BTW, I'm using a custom ROM (T.I.R V8), so no I'm not using the factory ROM
What I'm wondering is that just a few owners joined the topic.. so, I guess, that the performance of your touch pro doesn't bother you..
then, we shouldn't be surprised if HTC isn't interested. They think that we are happy with the performance of the device.
Edit: http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf - see page 13. And that's MSM72000. We got MSM7201A chipset on Touch Pro (better). So in final may be HTC fault? I'm so confused
Yep, have to agree the performance is abysmal. I heard HTC didn't want to pay some company for a proper graphics driver.... but thats just hearsay.
And have you seen the HTC HD? From the youtube videos I've watched ot goes like s**t off a shovel, seems they managed to get that thing working properly, if they'd only do an update for other devices.
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.
Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"
If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.
* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420
Is that fair..?
I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..
@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
DSF said:
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.
Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"
If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.
* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420
Is that fair..?
I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..
@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally TOTALLY agree. I mean how can we fix this? How much time is going to go by until the chipset can finally do what it should be able to do?
The only take I have on these devices, is that they are pretty much marketed as "business class" devices. Yeah, they will play video, but you know that if they market it as a "business" device, they probably won't do much. If they
marketed it as a gaming device, or video music player, it might be a different
story. They made a Swiss army knife, but it doesn't do any of them well.
I'm happy with my TP, but I don't listen to music or watch videos, other than once in a while a youtube. I have mine for receiving email, text messages & phone calls, which, if you could get an honest answer from HTC, is where they think the market is for these devices.
@djcaston only HTC & Qualcomm knows..
No idea how we can fix this, but we should do something (make this public, e-mail htc, publish on mobile news site, etc). The solution/answer SHOULD come from the companies mentioned above.
@p51d007 but the DIAMOND is marked as a "business class" device too? I don't think so.
Even as a business device is not working too good. Just try some powerpoint presentations, open a doc file and see how much time it takes to load.
So..
I've made more comparisons.
Quake III Arema
Nokia N82 - Symbian S60 QVGA
TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: PowerVR MBX
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
Dell Axim x51v - WM VGA
Intel XScale PXA270 @ 624 MHz, chipset launched in 2004
Graphic: Intel 2700G5 Multimedia Accelerator
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEuEGqYZNek
Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x8_wfWaYa_w
(the device in video is a touch pro)
SEGA Sonic 3 (Picodrive emulator)
Same emulator on both devices.
The hardware acceleration does not count as the last test includes Picodrive emulator that doesn't use HW acceleration at all. However, you can see that on SPV C600 the gameplay is smooth, something that we cannot say about the one on touch pro.
HTC Tornado (SPV C600)
TI OMAP 850 @ 200 MHz, overclocked at 252Mhz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: no Hardware Acceleration
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmUxwGBmMc
Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrLD8OGFk8w
(the device in video is a touch pro)
As you see, touch pro is below EVERYTHING. A tehnology from year 2008 is so way behind a tehnology from 3-4 years ago. It's looks so anormally to me..
@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
Point taken....the only response I could say would be HTC & graphics DON'T go together LOL...
DSF said:
@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I saw some xperia drivers posted once that people were saying made the touch pro run better. Anyone ever look into this?
i'm from Diamond forum, but totally get what you're all saying here
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
Ouzo said:
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just sent them an email myself. Hopefully enough people email them
so that we may get a proper update! Its ridiculous when I can barely run Quake 3 on this thing while my Viewsonic PPC runs it just fine!
And its not just about playing games either. The whole phone feels laggy..
Sorry to complain so much, but I paid good money for this thing..
And I like the design so much, I dont wanna return it just yet....
Coming from a Kaiser, and putting Elite RC1 on my Raphael, I was reasonably satisfied - until I got a G1.
Side by side is like pentium vs 486. My point being, they are running similar hardware, so I'm not sure the Qualcomm chipset is so crap after all.
I haven't seen any 3d accelerated stuff yet, but I know these devices are capable of great 3d gaming.
Indeed, as an Axim X50v owner I am dismayed at how immensely better it is in the graphics department, for a device so much older. HTC, Qualcomm or perhaps even a carrier needs to get off their hands and take care of the customers. Publicity may be one of the few tools we have, but I guess we might as well use it. Posting your displeasure here is as good an action as any, but take the time to comment or reply in any venue that you see these issues being discussed.
C'mon manufacturers/suppliers ... get those damn drivers out!
i do agree.
i began to get frustrated with my TP that i started thinking of selling it, there are alot of things that arent going well at all in its preformance, and since the thread is about preformance in general i have a bad experience with my TP laginess. and GPS for example my wife bought a diamond a couple of days ago, and some how her Diamond gets a fix in less than 30 seconds, my TP takes considerably longer. the device is really really laggy, i sometimes wonder it recieved my click or not when i touch the screen. and its video preformance is extreemly poor. i mean i have an XDA flame and a toshiba g900, i thought the G900 is a crappy phone but it has GoForce 5500 chipset with some driver update its video is becomming amazingly fast and smooth.
what makes me angry lets say is that im a WM fanatic and the company where i work distributed iphones on all of us to use in our business tasks, it was a surprise to be honest that the Iphone took over this market really wiered, but after testing it for a while its much faster than the TP and it scores much higher in all tests with a massive diffrence, the only WM phone that came near the Iphone is the Samsung omnia, i think i already know why. both are samsung CPUs i tested the samsung omina of my friend and i think the Omnia is the WM version of the Iphone.
THough HTC is the bigger sister in the smart phone world but she is letting her clients badly down with crappy drivers and sometimes crappy PDs.
best regards
Kevin
Hear me out.
It looks nice enough but im a owner of a x1 which i think looks better, but this is not my point.
I look at the specs of my x1:
288mb ram (ram on gpu - but never proven)
512mb rom
480 - 800 wvga 3.0" screen
3.2mp camera
wm 6.1
qualcomm msm 7200a cpu (528mhz arm 11 core + 256mhz arm 9 core)
1500mah battery
+ all the standard stuff
now the tp2 specs
288mb ram
512mb rom
480 - 800 wvga 3.6" screen
3.2mp camera
wm 6.1 (with free upgrade to 6.5)
qualcomm msm 7201a cpu (528mhz arm 11 core. not sure if it has second core???)
1500mah battey
--------------------------------------------------
To me the specs are almost the same and by the time the tp2 gets release it would be about 9 months after the x1. Dont u think the specs should have been a lot better?
Well although they may look the same on paper, the Diamond2 (essentially the same as the Pro2 software, processor and GPU wise), scored extremely high on core player's benchmarks, especially compared to the XPERIA. Go here to read more. And in addition, I think HTC made leaps and bounds with tweaking its newer devices and TF3D (probably the same stuff the fine folks at XDA have been doing for years) to make them much faster, despite having almost the same hardware.
Plus, the tilting screen is a huge plus for me. The Kaiser, with its beautiful tilting screen, is admittedly my first Windows Mobile device, so now I kind of expect a tilting display (I'm spoiled now). I think HTC may be including real, fast, uncrippled GPU drivers this time, so the devices will be faster like they are (NOT CONFIRMED, just my own suspicion). And I believe the processor has a second core, simply because I'm pretty sure all of the Qualcomm MSM7xxx processors do. So IMHO I think it's a little better than the X1 because of its speed and its bigger screen, although I've never owned an XPERIA so I don't know for sure.
Dave
They could have, at the very least used a 5MP camera, but then... I think they'd reason out that it's not the main reason you're buying HTC.
it better have drivers or i am seriously thinking my next phone will be a toshiba with a 1ghz snapdragon cpu.
I just hate that the touch pro 2 does not have a dpad or softkeys.
x1 has bad benchmarks because it has really bad drivers. as far as touchflo goes thats software that and device can have. (as the new touchflo in the tp2 has been cooked into a rom and cab form for the x1 and touch hd).
i cant see how they can release a product 9 months after and just twick the hardware a bit and the ask for the £500.
im waiting for a phone with a bit jump in specs
The TP2 is better, but not by much at all, so I am either going to go with the Toshiba TG01, SE Idou, or Omnia HD.
Well
At least is the best option to upgrade from Universal
Is not the best for sure but it´s something imprivement
Otherwise wait to december and you´ll see the new 2010 models!
josefcrist said:
it better have drivers or i am seriously thinking my next phone will be a toshiba with a 1ghz snapdragon cpu.
I just hate that the touch pro 2 does not have a dpad or softkeys.
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Click to collapse
Exactly like me. The biggest thing I hate in the TP2 is the old and slow CPU. The 1 GHz Snapragon is SO much faster. I've tested it in the TG01 myself and found it EXCELLENT - see my MWC articles if interested.
Come on, HTC, it's 2009 - the TG01 was already in working order in February (again, I've tested it myself at MWC), why couldn't you put the same Snapdragon in your phones?!
tegra chip + android = perfect touch pro 2
josefcrist said:
it better have drivers or i am seriously thinking my next phone will be a toshiba with a 1ghz snapdragon cpu.
I just hate that the touch pro 2 does not have a dpad or softkeys.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree!
To answer the thread initiators question - DEFINITELY NOT!
Snapdragon got it all sewn up for me. (Toshiba's TG01 K01 Anybody?)
agree, I'm looking forward to a powerful device with Snapdragon! and it looks like toshiba will have it out many months a head of the ever sooo slow htc.
Device with Snapdragon is powerful, but without d-pad and other buttons is unuseful. Fast CPU is not enough. I have Touch HD and this device is nice, but very uncomfortable and hard to control :-(...
I'm actually dumping my X1 because I hate the keyboard, but I'll probably get a Fuze before the Touch Pro 2 comes out to hold me.
What are your thoughts about the new Nokia N900 that comes with the Maemo OS? It comes with a good 600 mhz processor and it has a capacitive touch screen. Maemo seems to be more stable than Windows mobile and it can also handle a native full skype client. Probably a VOIP comunication using this Nokia N900 will work much better...
The downside probably is that there are not too many applications for Maemo yet, but it is an open source OS, so it seems promising...
What are your thoughts?
It look good but I´ll stay with HTC and WM for now
Promising devices are coming!
Saludos,
I thought hard about the N900 and had it on pre order.
Somehow I ended up with an Acer neoTouch...don't know exactly what happened in between
The Acer neo touch seems good but the battery seems like too small for a 1 ghz processor...
The Nokia N900 has a 600 mhz processor but running with Maemo which looks like a lighter and faster OS. Also, the capacitive touch screen is much better for a phone when you are on the go. Plus it is a Nokia and it should be good quality.
Evolution.....?
Guys n girls, - quick addition - 99.9% sure its resistive touch screen peeps.....
My advice......
Don't overlook this beast.
This is seriously the missing link. Bare with me with my slight rant below, it is going somewhere.....
Many many of us XDA'ers never even had a snff of Nokias last generation winners, the N95 and n95 8GB as we had our heads buried in the HTC sand.
Not bad sand to be in really IMO but I was SO glad that I took the jump and got a N95 8Gb to compliment my HTC Ameo (and fit in jeans pocket...etc)
The Carl zeiss lensed camera, the music play back ability - dedicated buttons (lol a 3.5 Jack) the Power VR graphics chip (with PROPER drivers for Fs sake) and ease of use + a bevy of applications that I presumed were only on Windows mobile......
Good web browsers
core player - using the chipset....
last FM and EVERYTHING you would want made this device the best bit of kit of its generation.
The OS, s60 V3 - although not as hackable as Win mo at first was opened up by hackers.......themes, transitions, full access to all files in device. It was all there. The N95 with its OMAP 2xxxx platform and full open GL 1 support was the best device of its generation. Even now, I use it with my work sim and always stuff it in my bag....
After the N95 Nokia released the N96 which was the same hardware - minus the PowerVr chip and with TV tuner - not EU comliant, added OS extension, Nokia F8ck*d it up big time with that device. It was not an update to the n95 but a side step.
Then, S60 V5 was anounced - now being spouted as Symbian ^1
Nokia offered the 5800 and the n97 as the first devices on this platform. In the same vien however as the N96 - OMAP 2xxx platform - NO Graphic acceleration - i.e. No PowerVR chip for me and many others, this was still not a successor to N95.
Samsung one upped them with their i8910 (Omnia HD) this was running the newest TI specced platform - very suprisingly not using a samsung processor but still running the TI OMAP 3430 platform with Arm Cortex A8 and Power VR supporting Open GLEs 2.0
ooo - that got me excited, with its 720P video and capacative touch screen, I HAD to have this device. So I bought one, good kit, bad platform.
Sony have just done the same thing with their Satio, S60 V5 with Omap 3430 (and a very good camera)
But where were Nokia in this? Where was their answer? What were they doing? N97 is popular but pretty lame really. (only 128 ram!!)
Then the Meamo powered N900 was announced.
I didnt know that Nokia had released previous Linux powered Maemo devices, I definitely didnt know that this was in any way a remotely popular platfiorm but the comunities are there already and growing quickly.
Maemo as an open linux platform, seems to be the best thing for us users who are constantly looking for a mobile Win XP replacement.
I am under the impression that it will be MUCH easier for applications that have been developed for Linux to be ported over to this platform than has ever been seen on a Desktop to mobile conversion route - regardless of platform.
The N900 is running Omap 3430 - full open GL es 2.0,
There is a proper camera (thanks Nokia) and o wow, resistive touch screen - !!!
So no multitouch - but hello accuracy and handwriting recognition
The Omap 3430 and supporting chips in this device seem to outperfrom the Qualcomm Snapdragon evuivalent being used in the HTC Leo and the big Toshiba brick (Tg01) not by much really, they are both good platforms.
Now I love my Omnia HD - there isnt a better small media playback and recording device for me - not that small. It will play any 1Gb DIVX movie I throw at it and LOL - it plays Quake 3 with a bluetooth mouse and keyboard like my old P3 with a Geforce 4 in it....and the TV out is outstanding.
The issue - its not a mobile PC like my Touch pro 2 or my ameo or at a guess like the Leo or Toshiba.....
I cant use a mouse and keyboard to give me a PC experience whilst on TV - or monitor out. Task manager is wrong, there is no task bar to select things.....you have to hold the device to get the working feel of it.
I am under the impression that the n900 will bridge this gap between hand held device and PC and it will bring the niceness that is Nokia Innovation with it.
My wish would be to LOLOL, see a section opened up on XDA developers for the N900 and - the best bit would be if Nokia gave away a big bunch of devices say 1000 to the best of the best on here to get the topic all hot and steamy.
- Then I could leave my mansion and get in my porcsh next to that slag from Transformers and go to the whitehouse.
Huba huba
end of drooling rant over n900.
Maemo will not have the great support of XDA and that is a good reason for stay with WM and HTC
Just my opinion,
I have been following the development of the N900 closely for a while now, simply because it blew my mind.
Unfortunately it was postponed and now it's postponed for another three weeks in Sweden. No more waiting for me because I wont be able to fully enjoy it until the highly anticipated Xperia X10 hits the market.
I have to say I'm tempted by the N900. Up until now I was totally convinced my next device would be WinMo. Here are the pro's and con's for my usage pattern:
In my opinion what speaks for HD2:
Huge screen; fast processor; very slick looking interface; runs all the software I want, most notably the MLO outliner and backs it up on the PC,connects to my SonyEricsson BT watch (thanks moneytoo!) which displays caller id, rss feeds, sms's, mails, enables answering mails with a pre-set message with push of a button without having to take the phone out etc (some 40 or so functions run from the watch); can run Garmin XT which to me is the best GPS software out there due partly to the user community in South America updating Garmin maps almost weekly (which can be extremely valuable); the largest user community base in XDA-developers (with 1.9M members, close to 260K active members, over 4M posts in 323K threads), edits all MS Office programs
Against:
Capacitive screen, not fully flash enabled browser (?), not as good camera, no webcam, no VGA-out, only 16k colors, expensive; not as pliable and adaptable - will get older quicker than the N900, I suspect.
What speaks for the N900
The N900 obviously has way better browser/webaccess, has a frontal cam that works for chatting at least between Nxx0 units, and possibly with PC's as well (it works on the N8xx, which are older devices, but it may be blocked by the service provider on the N900, this is an unknown yet, if it does work, though it's a huge plus, to me) a better, and protected rear cam, better video filming and, possibly, playback, 32 gb of internal memory, vga out, runs Open Office; I would hope it has better phone and sound quality, but don't know;resistive screen viewable in sunlight afaik (I prefer resistive as it allows for handwriting and precision), 16M colors, ability to run Debian based software - although I have no idea whether that software will do anything useful for me, more colors on screen
Negative on the N900:
the biggest drawback is it doesn't run some key software I'm dependent on, such as a really capable outliner like MLO, enabling multiple contexts with backup on a pc, afaik [anyone with suggestions for a solution are welcome, I've looked into NoteKeeper but it's not quite there, yet]; another biggie poor GPS apps that in addition requires full on connection to work afaik - although I hear that today Nov 13, Sygic released a version for Maemo - but I would prefer Garmin for the SouthAmerican maps; I know this may seem minor to most users, but it doesn't hook up to my SonyEricsson BT watch which is a nice gadget and support to the mobile; doesn't [yet] allow editing of MS suite documents; doesn't play FLAC files; smaller screen; and although the Maemo.org user community is very helpful, it's smaller than XDA, and most of its 38000 active users seem to be hardcore Linux programmers, and I'm not sure I can speak there "language," whereas I've been hanging around XDA to understand at least hardSPL, ROMs etc.
I'm no programmer, not even really a superuser of any of these. N900 shows a lot of promise on the software side, but will it be fulfilled? It will probably improve more over time than the HD2.
An alternative would be the Acer neoTouch, as it is WinMo and has a resistive screen, but then it doesn't enjoy XDA-support (although there is a small user group on here anyway).
I have to apologize for what I said about the N900 having a capacitive screen. I am dissapointed now that I know that the N900 has a resistive screen. I find the capacitive screens better for a phone considering that these devices have to be used only with fingers and on the go, specially with just one hand only.
I see that the HD2 has a capacitive screen and comes with a native WM 6.5... Is it a tendency? I mean, Is WM 6.5 supposedly designed more for a capacitive screen instead of a resistive one? Maybe this is Microsoft's intention... Everybody says WM 6.5 is more fingers friendly, then it should come with a capacitive screen... So, maybe in the near future, all WM phones will come with 6.5+ OS and capacitive screens like the HD2 which is now the first one to start this tendency.
The N900 doesnt have a Garmin application yet, but there is one for Symbian, so maybe there will be one for Maemo in the future.
Is Maemo as hackable as WinMo is?
hgrimberg said:
I see that the HD2 has a capacitive screen and comes with a native WM 6.5... Is it a tendency? I mean, Is WM 6.5 supposedly designed more for a capacitive screen instead of a resistive one? Maybe this is Microsoft's intention... Everybody says WM 6.5 is more fingers friendly, then it should come with a capacitive screen... So, maybe in the near future, all WM phones will come with 6.5+ OS and capacitive screens like the HD2 which is now the first one to start this tendency.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So far the HD2 is the only WM6.5 phone with a capacitive screen, I think. WM7 and onwards are likely to ship on phones with capacitive screens, but WM6.5 devices will generally still be resistive.
my next device will be the n900. its in a different league with that OS.
So if it seems that WM is moving towards the capacitive screens with WM 7 then it is silly to buy now a phone with WM 6.5 with a resistive screen that a year from now or less we all will want to switch to WM 7 and it wont be possible because of our hardware limitation... If this is the case, we will better wait for a WM phone with capacitive screen and WM 6.5 like the HD2 or one with a sliding keyboard (that doesn't exist yet).
It seems that Microsoft ended up with the conclusion that a capacitive screen with multitouch, like the iphone, is better and more practical for a phone. That is probably why they are calling their OS, Windows phone now and they are trying to move away from the idea of calling their devices a PDA...
The N900 looks very promising but I can't understand why Nokia is not aware of this tendency and comes up with a resistive screen now.
hgrimberg said:
So if it seems that WM is moving towards the capacitive screens with WM 7 then it is silly to buy now a phone with WM 6.5 with a resistive screen that a year from now or less we all will want to switch to WM 7 and it wont be possible because of our hardware limitation... If this is the case, we will better wait for a WM phone with capacitive screen and WM 6.5 like the HD2 or one with a sliding keyboard (that doesn't exist yet).
It seems that Microsoft ended up with the conclusion that a capacitive screen with multitouch, like the iphone, is better and more practical for a phone. That is probably why they are calling their OS, Windows phone now and they are trying to move away from the idea of calling their devices a PDA...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's no guarantee that even the HD2 will receive an official WM7 upgrade when WM7 launches. WM7 could well be a year away; and I don't think the original Touch HD got an official upgrade to 6.5. HTC isn't very interested in offering compelling upgrades for discontinued phones, they'll want you to upgrade to the HD3 instead!
Of course there will likely be an unofficial upgrade in the form of a custom ROM someone here on XDA produces; but the same may well apply to resistive-screen devices.
IMHO i hope that Nokia will release after this N900 a similar E-series device, simply because they're made better of N-series and others.
Don't you think that Maemo could be compared to Android, not as OS but as way of thought?
Hope I get myself understood and thanks to all who write very helpful informations on this forum.
P.s. I had Nokia N70 ---> HTC P3600 and then i came back to symbian with N95 8gb, only because of better phone features.
think it's nice enough that nokia goes from symbian to a linux flavour but
doubt they can make it they should have gon android and modded it like motorola droid and htc's devices
the android app store is only getting bigger and doubt nokia can get enough developers their way
It is very important to be aware that there are only 2 OS's in this world that have a native Skype client with full VOIP features. These are the Windows Mobile operating system and Maemo. Android only has Skype lite, same as Symbian and in a way, same as Blackberry with iskoot.
Why is this? Hardware limitations or just agreements between phone manufacturers and telecomunications companies?
It seems that Google also had an agreement with Skype to not develop a client for their OS to not upset the telecomunication companies... Instead, they developed Google talk that works the same way as Skype lite by calling you back and using your GSM minutes.
The Nokia N series, like the N810 Tablet is not very famous probably because the cell phone carries almost never had it as part of their offers most likely because it was the only Nokia phone that was able to handle VOIP through skype which terrifies the telecomunication companies. The Nokia N900 will probably end up the same way. It is smaller in size than the N810 but it has a Maemo OS that can handle a full skype client.
seems a lot of people dont really understand much about android or how its designed/implemented. may i help inform you by pointing you to this valuable read:
http://tree.celinuxforum.org/CelfPu...achFile&do=get&target=Mythbusters_Android.pdf (http://www.embeddedlinuxconference.com/elc_europe09/sessions.html#Porter)
take note peeps.
orb3000 said:
Maemo will not have the great support of XDA and that is a good reason for stay with WM and HTC
Just my opinion,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. XDA is the greatest asset HTC has.
I've been hanging 'round the N900 www.maemo.org talk forum because I'm seriously considering the N900. The XDA community certainly seems to be a much more friendly place for newbies.
The attitude among some (definitely not all) of the maemo.org talk members is like "well unless you master command line then this phone is not for you." For an example, check the second comment in this thread:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35625
Their attitude results in little battles between themselves and newbies (and there will probably be a lot of newbies on that forum) in the discussion threads.
In addition as it is a developer centric community for an open platform, there's a structured work flow approach to support the open source development which newcomers have to understand.
I believe XDA is a more mature community and went through the growing pains a long time ago.
I had an n810. trust me the hype is not necessary for maemo. i am much happier with my lg incite that i ever was with my n810. also wtf is with nokia expecting me to pay for their gps software that came preloaded. also the bluetooth never worked correctly. but i have to say i really liked the build quality and the design of the outside of the n810
josefcrist said:
I had an n810. trust me the hype is not necessary for maemo. i am much happier with my lg incite that i ever was with my n810. also wtf is with nokia expecting me to pay for their gps software that came preloaded. also the bluetooth never worked correctly. but i have to say i really liked the build quality and the design of the outside of the n810
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apart from the BT never working correctly, and paying for software, say some more about the maemo tablet user experience. They certainly seem to have their following.
I know that WP7 isn't finished yet. But personally WP7 should get, soon a high-end device. Like the HD2 was for WM.
Almost a majority of new phones now have x GB of internal memory, 1 GHZ processor etc.
In my opinion HD7 series, LG, Samsung Omnia 7, they are based on technology which is already out there.
When will we see the a phone for WP7? Which was like the HD2 was for WM?
Never. Microsoft has strict uniformity rules and restrictions that each OEM must follow. All the phones will be almost the same just different screen sizes, cameras, etc.
vetvito said:
Never. Microsoft has strict uniformity rules and restrictions that each OEM must follow. All the phones will be almost the same just different screen sizes, cameras, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Steve Balmer, thats stupid.
How is that stupid? It means whatever WP7 phone you buy will perform great out of the box. It will run all the WP7 apps/games as well as the next phone. It means you can buy the phone that's right for you without having to pay attention to the, often, small-print telling you if it's running Android 1.6 on a 600MHz chip with hardly any memory or if it's a real powerhouse.
I think he more means a phone that is better than the minimum specs. 1.5ghz cpu etc
ahhh yes because all the current WP just use the minimum specs....not the more recommend ones (whatever those might be, if they even exist) so while yes the current crop use the minimum requirements there shouldn't be nothing major holding OEMs from bumping up the specs a little
If I am even gonna consider af WP7 phone. I want a WP7 phone with a processor faster than 1 ghz and good graphics and a Amoled screen and a camera better than 5 megaxiels.
Euroman28 said:
If I am even gonna consider af WP7 phone. I want a WP7 phone with a processor faster than 1 ghz and good graphics and a Amoled screen and a camera better than 5 megaxiels.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why you want faster processor? It won't give any benefits at the moment. Omnia7 is the best
rcrawford611 said:
ahhh yes because all the current WP just use the minimum specs....not the more recommend ones (whatever those might be, if they even exist) so while yes the current crop use the minimum requirements there shouldn't be nothing major holding OEMs from bumping up the specs a little
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows Phone 7 only has support for the Qualcomm QSD8x50 chipset at the moment. That's it. What has caused the confusion here is the slides at Mix10 saying "minimum spec". We can only assume that means WP7 will support faster chipsets in the future - ie. WP7.5 or WP8.
So yes, there is something holding back the OEMs - there is no OS support.
Euroman28 said:
If I am even gonna consider af WP7 phone. I want a WP7 phone with a processor faster than 1 ghz and good graphics and a Amoled screen and a camera better than 5 megaxiels.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why do you want a faster processor? Have you handled a WP7 device? Do you realize it's much faster and smoother than any Android phone on the market? Adding a faster CPU will not make it recognize your taps any quicker - it is already instant.
Microsoft have to add the driver for the soc before a manufacturer can release the phone. That is why all phones currently released have the same mobile cpu.
It has been rumored that the next update will include more drivers for more qualcomm SOCs... I want to see a driver for the Tegra 2.
vetvito said:
Never. Microsoft has strict uniformity rules and restrictions that each OEM must follow. All the phones will be almost the same just different screen sizes, cameras, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its a minimum spec, not a required one.
barryallott said:
It has been rumored that the next update will include more drivers for more qualcomm SOCs... I want to see a driver for the Tegra 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a feeling they will be sticking with Qualcomm. I'd imagine that more variations in types of SoC make hardware optimization that much more difficult.
Samsung's not going to let that sit on themselves on mid- or longterm. Microsoft will have to let them use the Hummingbird and Orion at some point. Seeing how they have a rather large foothold in the WP7 market, it's a huge risk to force them to continue to unnecessarily use a competitor's components.
You won't see any phones that are head and shoulders above the rest anytime soon. With "NoDo" they have at least support for additional Qualcomm chipsets which probably means they support the QSD8650 for CDMA, MSM8255 and MSM8655 for the Adreno 205 GPU's. If they also added support for a dual core Scorpion, that would be a huge plus for some powerful devices later but I wouldn't get my hopes up too high yet but I can't be too sure.
In terms of Cameras, the sensor has to be at least 5MP, it could be higher like the HTC 7 Mozart which I believe has a 8MP camera.
With internal storage, it has to be at least 8GB but can be higher like the DVP which comes in 8GB and 16GB versions. This in my opinion should be changed to a minimum 16GB but it's probably for cost reasons.
RAM also has a requirement of 256MB which I think should be a minimum 512MB like the Samsung or HTC devices.
I thought one of the main disadvantages of WP7 has been inferior hardware.
For the original release Microsoft only supported the old snapdragon CPU with 1Ghz and Adreno 200.
Now for Mango, they did obviously update their support
for 8X55 and 7X30.
None of those are actually dualcore SoC's.
How are they going to keep up with Android if they continue offering inferior hardware specs? Or did I miss something?
I wish they do relase one which does. but they dont need dual core for the os so why burden the battery
"inferior hardware"
wow really?
dude, 1ghz, on a phone, thats everything else but inferior
it may be the truth that andoid is goin to need dual cores to give users a good looking and fluid experience, but windows phone is not.
no matter what handset you get, its working faaaast. no lags, no hickups, almost no loading times (and with mango its getting better)
so why would windows phone need it ?
However I would really like to have dual core phone,jut like to think that I have one of the fastest phones. But its true windows os is so smooth it wont make a perfermonce differnece, only thing that can help is using NAND memory instead of SD. Howver I want a better GPU so we can play faster games with good FPS and better quality, not saying that the quality is poor atm its great but it can always improve.
webwalk® said:
"inferior hardware"
wow really?
dude, 1ghz, on a phone, thats everything else but inferior
it may be the truth that andoid is goin to need dual cores to give users a good looking and fluid experience, but windows phone is not.
no matter what handset you get, its working faaaast. no lags, no hickups, almost no loading times (and with mango its getting better)
so why would windows phone need it ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but the problem is it's not about "why would WP need it".
The average consumer, who is used to buying PCs based on their specs, will look at an Android phone and a WP and compare them. If they don't know the difference between the two OS then they'll be looking at the specs.
What do you think they're going to choose..?
Casey_boy said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but the problem is it's not about "why would WP need it".
The average consumer, who is used to buying PCs based on their specs, will look at an Android phone and a WP and compare them. If they don't know the difference between the two OS then they'll be looking at the specs.
What do you think they're going to choose..?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
to be frank, the average customer knows a superficial knowledge of cell phones...and many still market dumb phones as the approach for all user needs. Nokia has addressed the h/w issues ad nauseum, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nokia would be the first wp7 with a dual core. In fact, I would love to grab a Nokia phone...
i thought of your point too
its true the specs are taken in consideration
but currently im not aware of any device that stand out..
i think the average people would think
2x cores = 2x power needed = half the battery
battery is a major aspect
so still, why build a dual core if nothing is using it, besides the battery
like i said, android may be able to to make their os fast & fluid
but why cant they do it on the current specs
you simply dont need heavy processin unit on your mobile device, as long as you wont do heavy processin on the device. the phone wont need it, but the tablet does.
the average user is used to windows
the average user uses the phone for not much more then phone, text, surf, game.
last but not least, the price, i dont know much about dual core phones (do they already exists?) but double the cores, may raise the price by a lot.
this year we wont need no dual cores....
To be honest, I never really felt the need of such a powerful processor in a phone. What can you use it for apart from games with high graphics?
I'm sure opening office docs, web pages, utility apps, music...everything at once still won't slow down the processes. It's a phone guys. Not a desktop PC.
Many years ago, I had a 1.2 GHz CPU running windows XP, which in fact ran heavy programs without any lag. And today, our phones have 1GHz CPU running a phone OS and apps that hardly go above 50mb.
What's the need, seriously?
I don't care about dual core yet, but would like to see some higher end devices. All first gen releases were very generic.
Newer Gen CPU/GPU (dual core not necessary till things are coded for it)
High Quality Material/build
32GB or 64GB Internal ROM
Super AMOLED/next gen if avail
512MB RAM
Good Battery
Good Quality Optics (iPhone4 or better (like Nokia N8))
Thats all I want. Maybe a FFC just for ****s n' giggles, but thats not high on my priority list.
[email protected] said:
Now for Mango, they did obviously update their support
for 8X55 and 7X30.
None of those are actually dualcore SoC's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well just like you said they have added support for new processors but neither of the new ones are dual core. We've heard rumors that ST-Ericsson will be supplying dual core chips for Nokia's Windows Phones but for now Qualcomm says they're the only WP7 manufacturer.
I don't doubt Windows Phone will see dual core support in the future. I have a feeling that Nokia won't be launching their Windows Phone alongside the others in September/October, but later in November or even December. That's when I think we'll see the first dual core Windows Phone. (Just speculation. No evidence for this.)
dtboos said:
I don't care about dual core yet, but would like to see some higher end devices. All first gen releases were very generic.
Newer Gen CPU/GPU (dual core not necessary till things are coded for it)
High Quality Material/build
32GB or 64GB Internal ROM
Super AMOLED/next gen if avail
512MB RAM
Good Battery
Good Quality Optics (iPhone4 or better (like Nokia N8))
Thats all I want. Maybe a FFC just for ****s n' giggles, but thats not high on my priority list.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well you just described Nokia N9 except for the screen ... only Sammy can put Super-AMOLED and the RAM is 768MB
PS. I though someone from Microsoft or Nokia I can't recall said that WP7 is already dual-core ready, so maybe it doesn't need new coding or I'm terribly wrong
kainy said:
Well you just described Nokia N9 except for the screen ... only Sammy can put Super-AMOLED and the RAM is 768MB
PS. I though someone from Microsoft or Nokia I can't recall said that WP7 is already dual-core ready, so maybe it doesn't need new coding or I'm terribly wrong
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Aye Why I know the phone I want is easily within reach. That would be more than powerful enough for the next couple years. This is also why I was excited about the Nokia deal because they have some excellent quality hardware & optics in some of their phones.
Android needs dual-core because the OS is so cluttered and filled with junk. WP7 phone have "inferior hardware" yet still run smoother than any Android phone would.
yea it should b strong