Related
Dear all,
Due to the proliferation of new ROM's, the Wizard forum is in need of a bit of housekeeping. The mods cannot do this alone, so we are asking for your help.
1) The four most used kitchens have been stickied for the moment and questions regarding any ROM's you cook based on these kitchens should be posted in the appropriate thread. Please do not start a separate thread. Anichillus Core Professional kitchen is also found in the Development and Hacking forum since it is used for multiple devices and is beyond the scope of many basic users. Users beware. I may de-sticky the kitchens upon further discussions with the mods, but right now the structure will stand as it is.
2) On the same note, I'm asking for kitchen authors to notify me or other mods concerning useless posts in these threads (e.g. Why didn't you include "x" application? or posts that are inflammatory or non-technical in nature). They will promptly be deleted as we shouldn't have to wade through 20 posts of BS to get to relevant tech info.
3) All of the kitchens stickied are based wholly or in part on Bepe's tools and are of the same basic architecture. Therefore no more kitchens will be stickied unless they are truly unique or offer a substantially more comprehensive interface.
4) Also, it's sometimes better for a lot of people to refine one ROM than for a few people to refine a lot of ROM's. I know there are a thousand aspiring cooks out there right now since the kitchens have been released. You may be tempted to release your own ROM to the masses either because you think it's a great ROM or because you want to be known around the board. Resist the temptation. Unless your ROM offers a very innovative user experience (e.g. Touch), it is not likely to get a huge following and might just cause more confusion for the non-developers on this board, you might do better to try to collaborate with some fellow developers in creating a very good ROM.
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY (and you know who I'm talking to). Some people have repeatedly posted in this forum despite the fact that their posts had nothing to do with Windows Mobile 6 specific issues on the Wizard (i.e "My Herald..." or ("Do you have this software from a Nokia?"). We will issue 3 warnings through PM's but after that you might be up for a temporary ban. This will only happen if you're a repeat offender. Heck we've all posted in the wrong place at one point or another. If possible we may move the post to a more appropriate location but it would save everyone a lot of work and aggravation if the posts are made in the correct forum.
I hope this helps a bit. If you have suggestions for how we can make this place better, please air them here. If you have a complaint with a mod, please PM me first. I don't like public conflict and most of you don't either.
jwzg said:
Dear all,
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY (and you know who I'm talking to)..
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not nice.,...
btw.
upgrade forum to allow people REMOVE own posts/topics, first.
Users can manage, with proper USUAL forum options, too.
smells like we vs. THEM,again,.
"same architecture" - yup, yup, but why i can see potential with new user cook result, and i can't with older builds?
it is random novadays(lack of your knowledge + newbie enthusiasm can make miracles).
I agree that a strong hand is needed. For this i suggest that there should be a special part in the forum where to move threads that have no replies for hmm...30 days ...?
I don't know too much stuff about forums but i think that would mean a nasty job for you guys so...just a suggestion. Or better...delete them or move them to an sort of recycle bin.
Regarding switching to a new upgraded forum, i think that would be an immense hard work also and it will leave the community off line for few days. It may be needed to come to that soon but that's not a big problem.
But i agree that allowing people to delete their own posts would be nice. But on the other hand, considering hours i spent here reading, i kinda got used to this look
I will PM you with posts to delete but beware that i may be more strict than you and i don't want to waste your time...so i will filter myself.
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
nothin said:
not nice.,...
btw.
upgrade forum to allow people REMOVE own posts/topics, first.
Users can manage, with proper USUAL forum options, too.
smells like we vs. THEM,again,.
"same architecture" - yup, yup, but why i can see potential with new user cook result, and i can't with older builds?
it is random novadays(lack of your knowledge + newbie enthusiasm can make miracles).
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You are reading this wrong. I had about four or five posters who after two or three moved threads and a couple of PM's continued to post totally irrelevant posts in the Wizard Mobile 6 thread. I this was aimed at repeat offenders and not at the occasional screwup. By they way, you can modify your post or ask a mod to move it if you like. Not a big deal.
I'm not trying to be a jerk at all, but I'm not trying to be nice either. I just see the same old builds with different package combo's that anyone could make with the kitchen and a little ingenuity. However, folks like Zoki and the-equinoxe have done some fine things with the touch software that are truly innovative and add substance to the user experience. I for one have partially adapted the T-Mobile wing OEM package to the Wizard (yes camera too, but the image is transposed and my-faves doesn't work). That's true ROM cooking and not just throwing a few packages into a cooker and presto.
It is not "us" against them. It's those who have a bit more experience actually doing our best to take this forum up another level instead of settling for ssdd.
shantzg001 said:
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
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I'm working on this...
all the old versions of Roms should be deleted too...like the very first wm6 roms theres no need for them
shantzg001 said:
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
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Fixed by admin. Thanks for the heads up.
ANTC said:
all the old versions of Roms should be deleted too...like the very first wm6 roms theres no need for them
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I disagree. There is history and things that can be found in those threads... Unless XDA-Developers is hurting for space, what is actually removed needs to be really determined that it isn't something that may help. I just did a Google search (I've given up trying to use the search here, easier to use Google's advanced searching techniques in most cases) and found an answer in the original Crossbow thread from January. Just deleting stuff because its "Old" is a bad idea IMO... Getting rid of the hundreds of "Help, I bricked my phone!" threads is even questionable as I wonder how many people have fixed a phone due to those and never posted anything here...
Remember there area a LOT of people that read and never post here. Yeah, it gets old answering the same questions over and over again (so I've taken the route where I've quit answering some of those.
mfrazzz said:
I disagree. There is history and things that can be found in those threads... Unless XDA-Developers is hurting for space, what is actually removed needs to be really determined that it isn't something that may help. I just did a Google search (I've given up trying to use the search here, easier to use Google's advanced searching techniques in most cases) and found an answer in the original Crossbow thread from January. Just deleting stuff because its "Old" is a bad idea IMO... Getting rid of the hundreds of "Help, I bricked my phone!" threads is even questionable as I wonder how many people have fixed a phone due to those and never posted anything here...
Remember there area a LOT of people that read and never post here. Yeah, it gets old answering the same questions over and over again (so I've taken the route where I've quit answering some of those.
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true i guess I worded my statement wrong I ment delete old Rom threads like the different versions of roms...i have no need for my version 1-3.5 beta threads you see what i mean...and I think we should have a bricked phone help thread I even wrote a quick tut on my other site to save a bricked MDA..you understand were im getting at
Gulp - I hope I didn't start something we will all regret with my post "Why all these new WM6 ROMs?" http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=313781
Let us not forget that apart from a very few idiots this is a great place to be. I have learnt a lot from this forum considering that I do not have a background in computing.
It has even stimulated my interest to the extent that I have assembled my own computer. Didn't save me money and my wife cannot understand it but I have ended up with exactly what I wanted which a store built machine could not have given me.
I hope you understand the analogy.
Let's just make sure that "We don't throw out the baby with the bath water".
No, you didn't start anything scotch whiskey that hadn't already been brewing a bit. I think my modified OP is a little nicer, but still gets the point across.
ANTC said:
true i guess I worded my statement wrong I ment delete old Rom threads like the different versions of roms...i have no need for my version 1-3.5 beta threads you see what i mean...and I think we should have a bricked phone help thread I even wrote a quick tut on my other site to save a bricked MDA..you understand were im getting at
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I agree with both you and mfrazzz.
What if someone doesn't want to use the latest version of a ROM, they don't like some changes or whatever, they will need those older threads for reference material. Also I notice lots of people asking questions, only to be referred to older threads. There isn't any use reinventing the wheel so to speak.
I think a good idea would be for developers (or just real supportive people) to make kind of an FAQ for some of these older versions, a "best of" list of questions and answers. It can be posted in the forum, it can be on some website somewhere, or in the XDA FTP, whatever. Not only would it give people a good place to refer to, but it might also eventually lead to a cut-down of basically the same questions.
Only then would I think removing older threads be a good idea. I know that wasn't entirely the point of this thread, but hey, mr smart guy back there decided to take a shot so I am too. I for one am right in there with him, I think its THE MAN against US. Oh yes, yes it is. oh noes. <3
jonflow said:
Only then would I think removing older threads be a good idea. I know that wasn't entirely the point of this thread, but hey, mr smart guy back there decided to take a shot so I am too. I for one am right in there with him, I think its THE MAN against US. Oh yes, yes it is. oh noes. <3
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Guys, it's NOT the man against anyone. We'd just like to get some real development going on here instead of everyone releasing slightly different versions of the same ROM.
I don't like this talk
Everybody should have the right to publish his work, no matter what hi did.
The rest will judge his work and he will learn something. Only those who didn't do anything can't understand this.
Old topics should remain, I like to jump back to learn something, for new members old topics is a must.
If you must do something to show us you're administrator rights, do something good, like option to close the thread.
Zoki, no one said members can't publish their work. I just honestly believe more of it should be along the lines of what you did with the touch stuff. I truly admire your work because it was bleeding edge (still may be) and that's developing which is why this board exists. I'm not trying to flatter you here to gain your support either. It's just when people throw your name all over a splash screen it doesn't really make it their work since most all of the ROM's here are cooked using kitchens from other authors with packages from other members and yes, even HTC. If that sounds big-brother-ish, it's not intended that way. Just make sure credit is given to the quite literally hundreds of people who've made this possible. We're already having problems in other forums right now with people asking for donations in return for tech support for ROM's they've cooked with other's tools. That is one of the many issues we're trying to be proactive about here.
Regarding closing threads, I'm not an administrator, and they have chosen not to give OP's the rights to close their threads. If you want your thread closed, please PM me and I have the rights close it quickly. If you want someone else's thread closed, well, you can request it, but it may or may not happen.
BTW, the old threads were not deleted, and I strongly believe they shouldn't be. Admin simply made a mistake in a setting, and all of the old threads are visible as per our request.
As a mod, I'm just trying to do my best to make sure that we have an orderly forum and we are developing, which is the forum's purpose.
hey jwzg we aren't really calling you a bad person, we know you're looking out for us I agree though, the roms are starting to look the same except for one or two programs, and the splash screens. It would be better for people to just explain what was in a new ROM scheme they came up with, and it would encourage more people to start learning how to make their own ROMs, therefore making them more intellectual in this particular field, which is a good thing. knowledge is power. But hey its just my opinion!
jwzg said:
Guys, it's NOT the man against anyone. We'd just like to get some real development going on here instead of everyone releasing slightly different versions of the same ROM.
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just to let you know that the REAL develepor regrets now releasing the rom kitchen tools....
jonflow said:
the roms are starting to look the same except for one or two programs, and the splash screens.
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sorry i am noone for you all, my "senior" member status sounds like joke but...
everything is the same imo now, also, theres no real help lately; only people that can have answers are like "how to flash my phoooone", "did i brickeeeeed?" etc.
there's no real customisation of "custom" builds.
seems like checking some oempacks' ticks is making these current OSes special...
i can't get an answer for my problems, despite i tend to help people someOM:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=322228
i spent MONTH to make this, and what?
nobody wants to help.
ok, clean this forum up, you may remove my babbling now....
everything i know bout wizard customisation is from that site...but now, in "touch" soft times, there's nothing that makes wizard better, just nothing.
it became playground for kids or what...
sorry for funny english, i cant do better...
i want to say thank you to:
Faria,
Anichillus,
mattk_r
jwzg
double_ofour
zoki
and many many more people that made me ..learning, not copying.
allright, time to watch another touch skin post...
Myself i've been reading most of the time, only lately did i start posting to test some bugs in builds. The issue at hand is a double edged sword. Yes i solved many problems wading through old posts. But i also solved a lot of issues just reading an entire thread. I will never be able to create a kitchen but it sure is nice knowing that when i want to i can build a rom entirely to my liking. But indeed to many Build threads these day are the same. And most of the issues handled, but then spread across multiple build threads, are mostly about the same problems. Mainly issues with specific base roms and aplication incompatibilities. I think a lot of the solving of these issues is slowed down because of the spread through topics. Maybe setting up a rule that Roms that get posted and aren't updated or have any fixes posted should not be taken seriously and can be deleted. This way less Rom versions circulate the thread and only higher quality builds by Chefs are available. Also a good rule might be to have the cooks post more info about the sources and tools used for their builds, like Kitchen used, Base used, Patches used oem packages used. So new users more easily understand that no Rom has no history. It also takes away the polish of parading with your ego. Maybe even changing the main wizard topics into
1. Kitchen Development
2. How To & Troubleshooting
3. Rom Builds testing
4. Custom Made Software & tweaks
5. Hardware and Accesoires
6. To be Deleted (either move topics or delete them when re/placed into new main topics)
Then indeed phase out unneeded old posts if the information is passed into new threads that accordingly aknowledge the sources.
What i'm trying to say is, to change the perception a bit more that this is not a Technical support site and more of a doing site.
I think the main topics can set an expectation and the current ones don't give the impression that flashing is not kids biznz.
Also it looks like there are to many uploads of the same home screens, software etc. (i think even i am quilty of that).
I'm all for a big clean up but with the focus on retaining the history and origin as much as possible even if it means loosing a few classic threads.
You as admin can set the tone and expectation and a clear message should be sent to junior cooks that collaboration is what drives this site.
I've got a server pad off until the end of Feb 2010 and came up with an idea the other day that I wanted to run by the people who spend a lot of time building ROMs and apps for all of us. Let me preface this by saying I'm not trying to take anything away from XDA (I spend a lot of time here), but my idea can really put some money in the pockets of these guys that work so hard for us.
As I said, I have a server I'm not using (along with an installation of VBulletin). My idea is to give the developers a "home", where each has their own forum. Within their own forum they would have their own ads (from Google or whatever they choose), so that they had a real income from their work and not just hope that people donate money occasionally. Within their own section their would be a subforum where only they could post (explanation of releases, instructions, FAQ, etc), so that it wouldnt become a mess. A user feedback section, and a troubleshooting section........with all the user interaction still here at XDA.
I've also set up a download section for ROMs, Themes, Widgets, and Apps, where only developers could upload, but everyone could download....so that everything is in one easy to access spot.
Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from XDA....what I am trying to do is organize something that benefits all of us, by giving the devs a chance to make a little cash, while giving them a place to post their latest releases. I'm not doing this for my own gain (Other than trying to keep my sanity reading through 400 pages of bickering and redundant silly questions)
If any of you Devs are interested (and I've already talked to a few of you), hit me up by PM or email and I'll get you hooked up.
http://androidclubhouse.com
love this idea, this will probably relive the xda servers of some stress, ROM threads have an average of 1000+ replies also might give the mods a little less to worry about, thats right mods i see you trying to keep this forum organized and appreciate your efforts
triple bump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To-6VIJZRE
can average joes like me sign up or maybe i can be a moderator if you allow
Yeah, as I said my goal with this was two-fold. First I'm doing this as an idea to help these developers make some scratch (I'll give developers special access and have them open a Google Adsense account). That way these guys can get paid for their efforts.
The other goal was to start from scratch with a clean and managed place. There is a lot going on here, a lot of ideas, a lot of dialogue. What I want to do is give each developer a section, one forum where only they can post (info on the releases, FAQ, etc....without any comments from followers), then have a forum where followers can offers ideas and discuss the releases, then a third forum for troubleshooting (I'd like to find some way of marking issues as solved, then closing them, so people with similar issues arent digging through 400 pages looking for answers).
I have a downloads page, which I'd really like to use.....maybe we can just have all the pertinent downloads there linked to wherever they are saved, or I can host them.
So, in closing, I am not trying to replace XDA (I'm working on adding a link to it to the navbar), I'm trying to augment it. I have the server and software paid of til Feb 2010, so I'm hoping this will turn out to be a good solution and we can keep it going. As always, if you guys have ideas or questions, let me know.
pcexpert2 said:
can average joes like me sign up or maybe i can be a moderator if you allow
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Absolutely....I'm just an average Joe. I am a computer hardware guy (used to own HardwareLogic, but sold it to deal with health issues). My wife bought me a G1 a couple of months back and I've not put it down since. I've been around here for quite awhile and recommend XDA to a lot of people (My last phone was a TMO Dash, which died a sad death when I fell and cracked the screen), I just dont post unless I have something to add to the conversation.
I really want to get people involved, I want to have a nice place, but a place with limited BS, and where things are kept on topic.
I'm onboard for any site that will keep the stupid posts/reposts/BUT HOW DO I DO IT? at bay. Not to criticize xda, but it has grown beyond the moderators abilities and it's just a mess.
I'm going to need help, but my thought was to generate a FAQ post for every thread, and then take the time to consolidate frequent issues we see into stickies, and lock them......so people can find the answers without digging through the BS.
I think we can do that by marking solved issues as "Solved" and locking the threads (then making them a sticky or creating a separate forum for them). By staying on top of that, things should work well.
YO hit me back. Just to chat. Your biggest fan, this is Stan.
To throw up very basic idea for recomendation of being in the design [if happens]:
In the comments on the rom section, make it so the comments can be seperated in category [like maybe side by side or something], like the biggest issue with forums is seperation with them is too seperate. People want to ask their problem with the rom where more viewers are. Its nature. Feedback and Troubleshooting. Thats what I would suggest. Then its simple organization method that keeps the roms clean for the developers to get a good idea whats wrong and how to perfect. Random problem posts in 1 page probably has 7 problems, 3 with response to helping, and 2 for feedback. How to see whats going on. Keep it clean so people can see exactly what they are getting and how to do it, thats key. Make no assumptions about people, think no one knows anything, and make it based on that.
Just a suggestion for [anything] in the future.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=3807449#post3807449
we need to consolidate, so far (the link above is for themes) i have seen 10 or more websites to try and put all of the downloads. its a wonderful idea. but if it is to be implemented, we will actually need EVERYONE's attention, and get one site with everything.
it sounds like a good idea, it'll be nice if it can be implemented for a quick place to find useful links. I have so many bookmarks because everything is so scattered on different sites and forums it'll be good to have it all together
I will be working on this all night and tomorrow. Those of you that are developers, sign up and let me know who you are by pm or email. Once I hear from you I will set up your section and give you all the acess.....then we can work on the ads for your section and let you focus on your work.
I will need a couple people to help me watch over things, so some of you senior members hit me up as well if interested.
As to breaking down the sections...here is what I did.....only the developers can post in the rin the ROM release forum, but there is an attached forum where peopele can share ideas and make comments, and an attached troubleshooting forum...well go from there.
As to the downloads page I have it sectioned, so everything should be easy to locate...kind of a one stop shop.
Once we get people posting content, maybe we can come together and edit it down to a series of tutorials, FAQ. Guides, or whatever....one thing I would like to see is a list of all the terminal commands...kind of a glossary...as well as a glossary of terms users need to know to get started, both of those would cut down a lot on redundant questions.
I am watching a few movies with a friend, but later I plan on adding a front page, answering emails, and tinkering with the setup.....keep up with the ideas, and if you want to help out, let me know
yeah
I think it sounds like a Great Idea!!! Get signing up Devs!! Make some more money other than your Donations!!!
Thats my whole point, my idea wasnt a forum to compete with XDA and other forums....but a place for the Devs to post/store their work without all the off topic and petty stuff that ends up being posted. There of course is discussion threads, but not mixed in with the ROM Release threads (Which only the Devs can post to).....there are separate discussion threads for bug reporting and ideas/comments.
Its all set up and ready to go, we just need the Devs to jump on. As soon as they get me some adsense code I will integrate it and they can start making some money from their own ads. Devs, help me help you..........
I also dont want to limit this to the ROM writers, if you have a tutorial, hack, app, widget, etc you want to post please let me know.
I am trying to get a glossary of terms built, as well as as many tutorials as possible, which should cut way down on repeat questions.
If there is a Photoshop Expert out thwere, hit me up, I need a nice logo put together for the site.
Looking good!
The site is looking good so far! I'm sure the devs are on their way!
How Many...
How many Developers are planning to give this a go?
I would also think that letting the rom devs have the ability to moderate their own respective threads if they so choose might be a good idea.
Separate out:
Q/A - general
Q/A - bug specific
Thank you
something to that effect.
I would design the website logo for free and moderate.
That's if you let me.
Rom Devs
ggolemg said:
I would also think that letting the rom devs have the ability to moderate their own respective threads if they so choose might be a good idea.
Separate out:
Q/A - general
Q/A - bug specific
Thank you
something to that effect.
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The Rom Devs are given the Ability to Moderate their posts as they wish, and thanks for the Q/A tips. Have you checked the site out yet?
While I haven't been on XDA as long as some other members, I have gone through the mammoth threads that are Dude's and Cyanogen's and its just flooded with spam or often un-useful information most of the time.
This is a development thread after all and for those running either experimental or unstable builds are beta-testing for everyone else. Now there's no harm in having a bit of chit-chat here and there to lighten things up but some issues seem to get lost amongst the ten's of posts just saying "Flashing now/issues after flashing a theme/etc".
They are experimental/unstable for a reason!
I was wondering though, if it would be beneficial to devs to have some sort of standardised form for bugs and issues. Yes I know we could probably use a wiki or support tickets offered on other sites, but generally many things get posted here on XDA first.
I was thinking of a simple list that users could copy and paste to make things easier to see at a glance and to improve on search hits. Something like this:
ROM Build:
Theme:
ROM Issue:
Issue Keywords:
Reproducible:
Wiped before install:
Re-installed/reflashed:
Logcat:
Searched for answer:
An example of a report as below...
ROM Build: Cyanogen 3.9.6
Theme: Stock
ROM Issue: Cannot run MyTracks (be specific as possible)
Issue Keywords: MyTracks ForceClose
Reproducible: Yes (put in steps)
Wiped before install: No
Re-installed/reflashed: Yes, re-installed MyTracks
Logcat: Attached/No
Searched for answer: Yes
It can be added to though so I'll leave it to you guys to offer up suggestions.
The "Issue Keywords" part should flag up easier during searches, so if you run a search for "Issue Keywords Mytracks Forceclose", technically speaking it should link to this thread.
What do you guys think? Its a longshot I know for most members to copy and paste before they reply but if it becomes a habit, maybe it will become easier for devs to track issues for themselves to prioritise or offer solutions.
FLASHING NOW
Kidding, I think a standardized form would be useful and I think any issue somone reports must have a logcat or it should be thrown out with the exception of phones that won't boot at all and a logcat can't be created. I think posts like "this don't work' are largely useless to developers.
lol I was reading through the Hero dev threads before and all I saw was one liners with FLASHING NOW/CAN'T WAIT/ROSIEEEE etc. While enthusiam is a fantastic thing, sadly more information is often needed to fix any issues that might pop up.
I don't expect, and neither should anyone else, a dev to read though 200+ pages of posts to only find that there are only a handful of issues that are actually ROM related and not solvable by other members with a little effort.
A general thread for a rom that's a little more open and a straight bug report thread would probably help all invovled maybe u can pm a few developers about this idea to see if there is any support for it.
Aso a moderator that can provide tight strict support of the bug thread to keep it on the striaght and narrow
I have suggested to the mods before about having a totally seperate section just for ROMs and that but it looks like it was debunked, along with having any new moderators for this place.
Which is a shame because a lot of threads and points do get lost amongst the often pointless posts that are made, which makes searching and reading them a chore.
I'm not sure what the moderator support is like for the Dream section, I've only seen Mikey being active in trying to establish any ground rules. Have offered my services though if required but will try to help out whenever I can.
I'll ask around though to see if devs would be interested in trying to standardise reports here on XDA and hopefully other members might follow suit before posting.
I really like this idea. It would be nice to have everyone on the same page. I would also like to see a feature where you HAVE to put your info in a sig. The hardest thing about helping people is lack of info. With this in place, everyone will be a lot happier to help then if you just said, "I have a problem" and expecting everyone to read your mind.
Good idea NeoBlade!
I second this idea.
Thanks! After all it just makes it easier for the people here, be it devs or helpful members, to diagnose and to figure out solutions when troubleshooting. Its the same process that I use when helping people with technical issues on computers - The more relevant info available, the easier it becomes to track.
Cuts out a lot of guesswork I find.
Enforcing it into your signature would be nice but from the looks of it, most people have put in the effort to display the latest info at least, not all though which can't be helped since its understandable.
At the end of the day, most of us are willing to help out others, as long as they put in a little effort too.
What about a bug tracker? Maybe not even something as formal as a bug tracker but something along those lines. We could set it up to force certain information before submitting a bug such as their current rom, a2sd setup, phone model, motherboard, etc. I am a web developer so if I get some extra time I could write something up pretty quick. Just a thought.
chuckhriczko said:
What about a bug tracker? Maybe not even something as formal as a bug tracker but something along those lines. We could set it up to force certain information before submitting a bug such as their current rom, a2sd setup, phone model, motherboard, etc. I am a web developer so if I get some extra time I could write something up pretty quick. Just a thought.
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most of the devs are using googlecode which has a bugtracker with it
There's a link to this in Cyanogen's Experimental thread
I think this is a great idea, so don't get me wrong, I just think it's more complicated than bug hunting.
A lot of what gets discussed sometimes isn't directly related to the ROM, but things like best swap methods and battery ussage do end up incorporated into the ROMs. Most people who post on these things do know what they're talking about and do make a contribution to the ROM, and other ROMs, too, and it necessarily stems from the discussion about the ROM, in my experience, most of the time.
In general, if I post, I try to address some sort of work around or solution to a problem that not everyone is having with the ROM. The fora aren't just for the ROM Devs, the rest of us read them, too, and get a lot out of them, despite the occaisional inanity.
If you go through the HTC Wizard ROM Forum, you'll see the same thing, and a ton more heated arguments. What happens as the ROMs progress, is that fewer bugs come up, and the fora get cleaned up right along with them.
What I might suggest is that people title their posts (perhaps be required to do so) with [Bug Report], [Request], [Solution], [Work around], [Comment], [Question], [Discussion], maybe [Misc.] to help sort through the parts of a forum. All of these parts are important enough, and mostly do contribute somehow to the results, which is a great ROM, but the process is people being in the discussion, and that's what's really going on. Wiktionary: forum I imagine if people did this, at least they would have to identify what it is that they're posting, which is where I see the problem. If people were required to think before they post by taking some sort of labelling action, they might second-guess themselves and save the keyboard for something more useful to others. At the least it would let anyone, devs included, filter.
It also might be handy if I could delete my own threads & posts that were errantly posted. We all have them somewhere. And people who post thier feelings rather than their cohesive, relevant thoughts will only be eradicated by educating the masses, so, pay your property taxes and find out what's going on with your local schools (we may be stuck for now, but there's always hope.).
Yeah there is an active bug tracker at googlecode already, but I can't really see many people actively taking the time to actually post there and fill in the relevant information.
I have no issue though with discussions in a thread as it adds character and can provide a friendly environment for people to help each other. More often than not, when people see others helping out, they would chime in too with a contribution.
I think Cyanogen though has killed off any compcache/linux swap discussions earlier on as he mentioned in his post that he didn't want to hear anymore of it And it has actually remained as so - There are plenty of such threads that exist already.
I agree though Janis with a structured standard title in their posts. It only takes a couple of seconds but can help people skim through what is banter and what issues might need looking at. I'll do so from here on it too (if only fast reply supports post titles!).
Would be nice if there was a notes/announcements section put up on certain sub-forums too outlining some form of post structure like what was mentioned. I'm more familiar with IPB/phpBB personally but I'm sure vBulletin supports it too.
OK so i know this is the wrong forum, BUT I came across this and wanted to "bump" it so to speak. This was posted by kyphur in 08 and in a mods sig now. Please read and adhere to the spirit of the post. It is RIGHT ON!!!
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Maybe you can recommend an alternative site for people who just want the newest tweaks and software.
the idea is not that only developers should be looking at this site, but that this is a place where developers communicate with each other and the beneficiaries of their work. This is not the place for someone to post threads about general questions about how to use or mod their device. This is a place that will develop the capabilities of the android platform if it is allowed. Developers WILL abandon this forum if it becomes a bulletin board or a technical support site.....and if you need a question answered, there are other forums on THIS site to address those.
Agreed 100%. While developing for the Windows mobile, I also got the same thing. I would post a thread and WARN people of a certain things and tell them how to fix it. Then I'd get 30 pages of "geeze, you broke something. how do you fix it?" That gets annoying real fast. I would love it if this forum forced people to take a test before they could post in the development sections... Before that, they should only be able to post in the regular sections.
One thing that really bugs me is the fact that the newbs don't want to search but don't realize that they take OUR time to search FOR them. No one knows everything. Every developer on this site searches and learns. I know that if you put together all the time that I've spent on this site JUST researching and searching, it'd be MONTHS and MONTHS of non-stop, no sleep searching and researching. So why can't the average person search for 2 minutes? Is their time worth more than my time?
/rant - while talking on the phone so it might not make sense...
Pinesal said:
Maybe you can recommend an alternative site for people who just want the newest tweaks and software.
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There are thousands, but essentially all they do is copy stuff off here.
Like the post said, if you just want to root your phone so it can do 'cool stuff' and not give a **** about how the damn thing works then maybe you shouldn't be modding your phone (that wasn't aimed at you btw, just 'people' in general the market place is made up of 99% 'these people' who don't/can't read and it's pretty irritating.)
Agree with the post 100%, fantastic
we sadly are living in the (ME) world
there is such a huge gape beetween the 10-19 generation and 20-29
10-19 generation is living in such an easy world, they never had to blow into their nintendo cassettes , know how heavy a quantum bigfoot is or what RTFM mean's
You said it, this is in the wrong forum.
You're not an admin and although you can spend your time here (and pretty much all of your posts) reporting out-of-place threads, you're still not an admin.
People always wonder into communities and it always takes a while to learn the way things work. Mickey is doing a good job on closing and moving threads that are unrelated to development.
With that said...
Reported.
Agreed. It's really, really, really, really getting to me. I wish OP's had semi-moderator power. They could at least delete all necessary posts and ban that user - if required- for a certain amount of time from their thread only.
jubeh said:
You said it, this is in the wrong forum.
You're not an admin and although you can spend your time here (and pretty much all of your posts) reporting out-of-place threads, you're still not an admin.
People always wonder into communities and it always takes a while to learn the way things work. Mickey is doing a good job on closing and moving threads that are unrelated to development.
With that said...
Reported.
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ughh, no i'm not an admin, and no almost all my posts, or the majority, or a half are reported threads, but i do try to help out the mods when i can. they are not on all forums at all times and can use the help, and they have said as much.
Oh thank you thank you! People here should want to understand why thing the work as they work. Not just want their phones to look cool.
As it you wouldnt know it, i have been with xda for years well since the titan came out. before that i was modding an ipaq and of course the old palms. everyonce in awhile i lose interest and move on only to come back when i have something new(major a.d.d). i do write java as well as c and even c++(so on) i typically find this place useful to try stuff out and even set up my own custom rom just for me. i dont post because i can google. while i have many of my own questions i would like answered i simply dont ask most of the time(such as using micro kernels and modding app2sd to make the os have two options sd in or out. however the problem is not the generations or age difference or anything like that. its social systems outside of xda. posting a reply used to mean an answer or something useful. now its normal to simply post "great job". thats nice and all but maybe instead of complaining about it we should come up with a new system that improves xda. like a sorting system or sub thread system and set up catagorys for our replys. like thumbs up would be for the "good job". i know its hard to keep everyone happy but this is a forum first, a forum has design problems when you get the number of people xda has. use advanced search it helps a lot. a sorting system with requirements for certain catagorys would help devs. its not easy modding and getting it right and you cant do it alone. xda is the help even if its not your phone sometimes others have solutions too. such as winmo users putting android on their phones(yes i did it too my old titan for fun). things i learned and other devs learn can help us and vice versa. i have yet to find bad technology only poorly thought out ideas that could have been. which is why we mod.
p.s. wtf is up with palm and blackberry ads all the time.
Most of those kids just want the answer or fix in the next 3min. with perfect steps or a patch that supposedly will fix and hack their device,after that they´ll never show up.
All they want is to show off without bothering to read.
I totaly understand. I do feel sometimes that certain devs do get a bit annoyed with people who just want to fix the phone and not understand. I'm not linux or coding wiz. But whe I got here in may I was one of the people who just wanted me phone to be better than urs. I still have that to some extent but I have developed more of a "how and what is causeing this issue" attitude. I try to contribute as best as I can. Helping out over at q&a as best as I can. I enjoy xda and without my days would be more boring than what the are now. I dunno I guess I'm just rambling. Bottom line is I have tried to correct my attitude toward modding. Hell I even post my email so users can drop a line if they need help.
i am 20 and i fondly remember blowing into my nes super nes and genesis games.
i am pretty new to XDA. when i first found this site all i wanted was a quick fix. now i am getting more intrested in the actual dev aspect. i want to be able to create my own rom eventualy. yes i do find myself asking stupid questions and getting some foul responses but in my opinion no question is a stupid one. only the one not asked. yes alot of people just want a fix but there are new users who want to learn. like me. so i appreciate the help i have recieved from most members. and i alwasy appoligise for my stupidity. so dont get down on all noobs because alot of us want to learn and the only way to is to ask.
saprano614 said:
i am pretty new to XDA. when i first found this site all i wanted was a quick fix. now i am getting more intrested in the actual dev aspect. i want to be able to create my own rom eventualy. yes i do find myself asking stupid questions and getting some foul responses but in my opinion no question is a stupid one. only the one not asked. yes alot of people just want a fix but there are new users who want to learn. like me. so i appreciate the help i have recieved from most members. and i alwasy appoligise for my stupidity. so dont get down on all noobs because alot of us want to learn and the only way to is to ask.
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nobody is getting down on noobs. ONLY the site users who FAIL to post questions and general comments in the correct forum
jaaronmoody said:
nobody is getting down on noobs. ONLY the site users who FAIL to post questions and general comments in the correct forum
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Just want to make a statement befor someone did.
I thank you for this post. I came to this forum a long time ago I have learned quite a bit and appreciate everything that is done here. There are very skillful people that are on here and I wish I had the amount of skill then thesemodders, hackers, developers etc... have I keep my mouth shut unless i feel there is some thing that i know how to answer, i have never complained about a single rom i simply research what can be done to change for fix it, all answers rely in a search somewhere either here or google. I just wish other people would do the same then we would be able to prevent a 300+ page threads where only about 25 pages are worth anything.
look at the amount of posts from someone who knows they are barley able to contrubute(but do what he can) and been here this long. compared to people who have been here dont have much to contribute but love to post everything that comes to thier minds.
Join Date
22nd October 2006
Total Posts
89
samygent said:
we sadly are living in the (ME) world
there is such a huge gape beetween the 10-19 generation and 20-29
10-19 generation is living in such an easy world, they never had to blow into their nintendo cassettes , know how heavy a quantum bigfoot is or what RTFM mean's
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HEY!
im 18 and clearly remember blowing into those damn games to make them work. but when they worked, so much fun i still think theyre better than the crappy xbox and ps3 games of today... but thats just me. lol
pleeease yall! let's keep THIS thread on topic! LOL!!
This NOT ment to be *****ing, I AM grateful for all the great work being done, But i do WISH every single dev could include this in their first post in their ROMs thread:
-What the ROM is based on (HTC framework, ADP, ADP with Sense from Dream, Sense from Hero etc.)
->What works (or not) of:
* LED
* bluetooth
These are common problems with HERO ROMs, and if every dev posted this info, it would be great. For me non-LED= not usable, and for some periods of time (ie. when I'm driving much), so is no BT
->Included apps.
*Especially important are sms-spamming apps such as myfaves - coud be critical to know about.
->recommended compache settings, swapiness etc, what is used in ROM as standard for these values.
We see every Hero-thread filling up with questions about BT, LED, what HERO-version, and what framework, and whatnot. Taking 2mins to post this info could help save so much time,and so much spam/question in the ROM thread.
Apps added/removed and the other stuff is also higly relevant to non-HERO roms.
Again, this is constructive criticism aka a humble suggestion, not an angry demand from some jerk with e-penile problems. (Or so I'd like to believe, at least.)
If anyone has any suggestion as to what other info you would like to see in a ROM announcement? Post it here, maybe we can "help" the devs out by making a complete template we would like them to follow. Input from devs highly appreciated too, ofc.
I know there are toher things that shoul also be listed, such as SPL and radio required etc., although I believe almost everyone includes it. Most devs include most of the items on the list too, but many do not include all of it.
Also, I am sorry for posting this in this category, but this is where the ROMs are posted and the devs can see it.
I hope this thread has its place here. Different people are lokking for different things, and both the user and devs benefit from the user knowing what they get. (It would hopefully limit the number of "spam" questions from users if the first post contained all this information, we know many people are afraid of the search button. Also, it would be easier to wield the ban hammer on people whoe doesn't even bother to look at the simple list in the first post, and waste other peoples time.)
If a dev included enough information, ROM lists with information abut different ROMs would also be much easier to maintain for the good people making them.
It may make things more organized, but it means devs have to update the list, and pay less attwntion to -actual ROM development.
And in my opinion, a little trial and error never hurt anyone.
TermyJW said:
It may make things more organized, but it means devs have to update the list, and pay less attwntion to -actual ROM development.
And in my opinion, a little trial and error never hurt anyone.
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This is TRUE!
I so hope that Hero ROM's on donut are much more snappier! I'm addicted, I want a ROM to use for a few months! Hehe.
Yeah, it would be nice if there was a template developers could follow for posting. It would make thing's so much smoother.
Possibly in the title of the post have;
[ROM] [SENSE] "Title Here"
[ROM] [PULSE] "Title Here"
[ROM] [MOTOBLUR] "Title Here"
[ROM] [1.6] "Title Here"
[ROM] [1.5] "Title Here"
I agree with the OP there are times where i i can't flash 5 different ROMs in a day and i skip over some because of lack of info and screenshots. Maybe the community can build a template that the ROM devs can use?
damnitpud said:
I agree with the OP there are times where i i can't flash 5 different ROMs in a day and i skip over some because of lack of info and screenshots. Maybe the community can build a template that the ROM devs can use?
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Are you thinking about getting back into making themes?
not gonna happen
jubeh said:
not gonna happen
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word im too lazy
they already spend there time developing the roms, i dont think they have the time to make the "proper layout"
Binary100100 said:
Are you thinking about getting back into making themes?
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I have been playing around with some images, made changes for my own phone but haven't done much else. I did just get laid off from my job so if i go the unemployment route you will definitely see me more in these forums. If i can't find a job soon i plan on getting into Java programming(i have a few app ideas) and possibly making my own ROMs. But we have to see where the job market takes me.
To stay on topic, the devs do spend a lot of time dev'n and having a template in a txt file would make posting easier for them. I have made a few threads and i can tell you making a layout for a post isn't that easy and is not much fun. If we can make an empty template that they only have to fill in their info...they would be doing the same amount of work on the post, just easier cause its all laid out for them.
We would need a sticky for it and have the devs vote on it or something.
That's a great idea it would be so much easier plus people won't be trashing threads with dumb ass questions is this for G1? Does this work or does it still do that and so on....
I mean before they upload the Rom they know most of the bugs so just saying known issues r these and that would help and just knowing what's new in the release doesn't help just confuses most of the noobs here...I'm one of them.
A little off topic but I'm a recruiting officer in a PC gaming community and I review clan applications, there were times when main application was down so I just made a sticky Thread with a template of the application to fill up and post it as a new thread
I mean look all of the devs pretty much do that already anyhow, every thread they make look exactly as the other 1 we just need a clean template that they all could use and just made it as a sticky thread and lock it so every1 could use it.
Zarboz said:
word im too lazy
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If you're making a ROM and posting it on xda, you obviously want other people to use it.
If the first post is sloppy and not informative or up to date. Less people will use your ROM. Thus, less people will test it. Therefore, you won't be able to figure out the bugs. If you're sloppy with info, you'll lose, not us.
Something that should be standard:
A proper title like suggested earlier such as [ROM] [1.6 - Pulse] [******]
(none of that [ROM] ***MghtyMax 1.9.1*** "WHAT A FEELING!" stuff....Sorry, but it's just plain horrible.)
Another thing should be a list of features, things that work, things that don't.
Screenshots are also very nice and descriptive. A lot of new users might not know what Pulse, Hero, etc. looks like.
If you take the time to work on a ROM, you have the time to work on a nice looking first post. Don't half ass your work. It makes you look unprofessional.
I agree with the first poster, also MD5 hashes would be nice.
As damnitpud mentions, this would probably make it easier for devs, not harder. This is about *not* forccing them to make the proper layout themselves, but serve as a pre-made basis for them to fill in. In ready made bb-code ofc.
Since the mighty max-rom was brought up, this is noe ROM i did not download and flash immedeatly beacause I couldn't find info about BT working or not. Also would like to know if it were the SENSE from Dream or Hero. And some other details.
As I have time to sit down and flash my phone maybe two days a week, tops, I would like to know what I want to try beforehand. I also don't want to read four hundred post with questions that sometimes are answered in the first post, sometimes in the thread, sometimes not at all. But IF they had been answered in first post - and especially if it were in standard list that all/most devs used, it would be hard to miss it, and save a lot of stupid and/or lazy people nagging.
md5 hashes is absolutely something that should be on such a list, ohnoezmahfone. That is certainly lacking, and quite important for people with a good-for-nothing-ISP or net by 3G modem etc.
Someone make up a template. There will always be someone who will volunteer to do it for the developer.
All great ideas.
Especially for the sake of SEARCH.
Example:
I enter a search for "bluetooth working hero" and up pops 4000 unhelpful results most where 1000 noobs are asking if it works or not without doing the proper research in the prior posts.
An all informative 1st post would reduce this and the unnecessary flaming that follows (also part of results)
Also, it would also be real nice if everyone keep their personal lives to themselves.
Noone cares if your "flashing [other irrelavant ROM] now because BT aint working for Hero yet. This also shows up in results.
If I want you to kno whats on my device, i'll put it in my sig
I know i just made "BT working Hero" one more result longer [4001] but i had to vent. Sometimes searching can be very annoying and cumbersome.
Less results means less hassle for devs and users.
Once again, great ideas