Since most D2 users feel the picture quality is only so so , has anyone found a way / .cab to allow the camera to store the picture in RAW format which enables postprocessing with sw like photoshop? Otherwise any tweaks / .cabs to patch the default JPEG & better noise reduction?
I'd go for that too ... although maybe there's only so much you can do with a 5 meg camera ?
Hi
I'd go for that too ... although maybe there's only so much you can do with a 5 meg camera ?
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That got me thinking, my full-sized camera is only 5 megs (a Nikon and had it a while) but takes absolutely stunning pictures.
It isn't the number of pixels reducing the quality, it is the quality of the optics. You can't expect much out of a lens the size of the one included in Topaz.
I don't think having a RAW output would help matters any.
Regards
Phil
Actually, sensor quality is the biggest issue here. Phone camera sensors are tiny and thus don't have the same image fidelity of sensors in dedicated cams. Sure, they're pulling 5MPs out like a point and shoot, but there's a lot less light sensitivity in them. Take the same shot with a cell phone and with a DSLR into an app like Adobe Lightroom and increse the brightness (not exposure). On the DSLR shot, you'd instantly see the extra detail come out of the shadows. On the cell phone shot, you'd see mostly noise and detail masked with noise.
On sensors this size, i doubt the lens would make much difference. The difference between plastic and glass (i believe) is mostly academic. About the best you could hope for is reduced chromatic abherration and flaring, but no manufacturer is going to waste the kind of money necessary to put pro-level or even prosumer glass on a phone, particularly one with a standard-sized sensor.
Also, try the demo version of Neat Image:
http://www.neatimage.com/download.html
It'll batch process up to two images. It's not a deep as the pro version, but it gets the job done.
I seem to be alone in liking the photo quality on the TD2! You need good lighting, and if you stick to ISO100 (200 at a pinch) and reduce "brightness" by "1", the results are better than a lot of compact cameras I've used. The colours in particular are excellent, and bar the occasional strange HTC processing artifact, the detail level is very good, both in the centre and into the corners. For it's minute size, the lens actually impresses me. Where the lens falls down is shooting into the sun, a stiff test for most compacts, but you could still shade it with your hand.
I think HTC's software image processing (noise reduction etc) is actually good, they don't mess with the image as much as some mainstream camera manufacturers. You get more noise, but you get more detail left too, which I prefer. I've printed some of the pics from the TD2 onto A4, and they look superb, you couldn't tell them apart from a normal compact camera.
The only issue I have is at higher ISOs (400+). I don't find the noise a problem but I get horizontal interference lines as well which are intrusive.
I suppose there might be a lot of sample variance in such a "cheap" camera though, so just because I was lucky with mine doesn't mean everyone will have got a good one.
Pete_S said:
The only issue I have is at higher ISOs (400+). I don't find the noise a problem but I get horizontal interference lines as well which are intrusive.
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Indeed these horizontal interference lines is what ticks me.
I'll try your settings and see if the image quality improves.
... and unfortunately I don't think you can get rid of the interference, RAW or not. It's probably getting in via the power supply to the camera, or maybe being picked up directly, from the main processor or one of the radios. Turning the phone radio off whilst taking high ISO pics might help, I haven't tried it yet. It's the price for so much digital in such a small space. At least low ISO pics aren't affected.
I'm also really interested in raw capturing. Think on some pics we will be able to have higher quality...
Guys still can't leave this idea! I really impressed by diamond2 camera. And i think that even if we would be able to capture uncompressed data from camera, png formant for example, it would be super and would give us some space for enhancements...
for WM there are so much software, and now alternative camera soft?
Or maybe video for 30fps?
Since most D2 users feel the picture quality is only so so
Well i know that some phones have its camera function as "main argument" but other functions usually suffer there. Here we have complex device, and its camera from my point of view make decent picture.
https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/5020311/1/soso?h=7b9477
Just made +1 on contrast to have wider dynamic range, and +1 on sharpness cause internal sharp algorithm is crap, if i need i'll boost contrast and sharp in lightroom. And i have very good pictures, this phone easily replace my compact camera.
Hi Guys,
I asked myself how the zoom on my Z3 should work.
As far as I know, the Z3 can Zoom into the sensor while taking 8mpix pictures.
While I tried it, it seemed to me that the quality gets really bad.
I was guessing that the indicator on the left is the indicator which separates digital zoom from the sensor-zoom.
As far as I thought the light grey indicator-bar shows the part which is the sensor zoom and the dark part is the digital zoom.
Considering the quality it seems to me that both modes are digital zoom. The picture looks really annoying while i use it.
I just thought maybe I'm doing something wrong - has anyone an idea how I can improve this or use it right or or or...
Regards,
Matthias
I didn't know about the 8mp restriction, i also tested it out in the shop, but in 20mp mode. The sections looked identical. However, as the sensor is not at it's limits at 8mp, i guess it could take a higher resolution and crop it to 8mp size at the zoomed in section.
Auto mode enables you to use the camera's Clear Zoom feature, which produces good-looking, lossless-like digital zoom.
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the image is stretched by the software, which then attempts to fill in the blanks as best as it can. Well, thanks to the giant sensors on the Nokia Lumia 1020 and Sony Xperia Z1/Z1 Compact, zoom is no longer a problem. But instead of opting for bulky zoom lens (Galaxy S4 Zoom), they both rely on their massive resolution in order to get what we call 'lossless' zoom.
So what's lossless zoom, then? In simple terms, it means that zooming into a scene will only result in a negligible loss in quality. Think of it this way: there are so many pixels available with a camera like the one on the 1020 that you can 'crop' any part of the photo and still have more than enough pixels for a full-sized photo that will appear zoomed in. No upscaling, and no loss of quality. But how does it work in practice?
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More info about everything
http://www.phonearena.com/news/What...-work-in-the-Lumia-1020-and-Xperia-Z1_id52198
So conclusion is, it is all digital zoom
electrash said:
More info about everything
http://www.phonearena.com/news/What...-work-in-the-Lumia-1020-and-Xperia-Z1_id52198
So conclusion is, it is all digital zoom
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Okay, it is something like digital zoom. But I think, the quality while zooming into an 8mpix picture should not be worse in quality (depending on the zoom factor) than the 20mpix picture.
When I take a 8 mpix picture, I assume that the image processor will take it in 20mpix and shrink it down to 8.
And what I would like to see is that
I could zoom in and it will just move into the sensor to a 1:1 size.
Another thing : while using the video mode, the stabilizer does an amazing job.
What about the photo-mode? I can't see any stabilisation there.
Since I only take 8mpi pictures, I guess the picture-frame could also be panned around the 20m of the sensor...
Regards,
Matthias
Maeffjus said:
Okay, it is something like digital zoom. But I think, the quality while zooming into an 8mpix picture should not be worse in quality (depending on the zoom factor) than the 20mpix picture.
When I take a 8 mpix picture, I assume that the image processor will take it in 20mpix and shrink it down to 8.
And what I would like to see is that
I could zoom in and it will just move into the sensor to a 1:1 size.
Another thing : while using the video mode, the stabilizer does an amazing job.
What about the photo-mode? I can't see any stabilisation there.
Since I only take 8mpi pictures, I guess the picture-frame could also be panned around the 20m of the sensor...
Regards,
Matthias
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In SA mode, phone take oversampled photo (which means he take 21mp, but he make HD pixel (one pixel combine colors from neibghours)... so when you take 8mpx it takes 20mp ovesampled.
When you zoom in, it will take more and more neibhours pixel to combine in one, so that means loseless.
So as seen on dxomark , the Huawei P20 pro is now the king of phone cameras, and one key thing is that it has a second monochrome camera just like the essential. Perhaps they figured out how better to "utilize" the monochrome camera much better than the devs at Essential?
i love my essential and i think is hope that it can be even better!
geminihc said:
So as seen on dxomark , the Huawei P20 pro is now the king of phone cameras, and one key thing is that it has a second monochrome camera just like the essential. Perhaps they figured out how better to "utilize" the monochrome camera much better than the devs at Essential?
i love my essential and i think is hope that it can be even better!
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There are a lot of ways to use the monochrome camera.
You can possibly use the image for increased dynamic range or contrast.
I use the Google Camera port for most shots, and use the OEM camera for B/W shots, which it does very well.
Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk
How do they do it? Better hardware that's how
I don't think the way Huawei incorporates both cameras is better hardware, it's much better software. Huawei uses what they have better.
Murbert said:
I don't think the way Huawei incorporates both cameras is better hardware, it's much better software. Huawei uses what they have better.
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The hardware itself, i.e. the cameras, are better quality. We can argue this all day, but you can only polish a turd so much (fix poor quality hardware with software)
The P20 Pro takes amazing pictures because Huawei put an amazing primary sensor (and lenses) in the phone along with good image processing.
GCam demonstrates the limit of image processing (taking low-light images being more detailed than the monochrome camera on the stock app) but without better camera hardware that's as far as this phone can go.
What better hardware? The P20 can get about 50% more light per pixel which is half a stop which amounts to nothing in the photography world. DSLR sensors gather 10 times or more light than phone cams and yet DSRLs are dying.
In the smartphone camera world, software is everything. Remember that the LG G6 has the same sensors as the PH-1 and yet its DXO scores for texture and noise are way higher than both the P20 and the Pixel 2. And that's the scores for just a single sensor. The Xiaomi 5s also has the same sensor pair in the same arrangement as the PH-1 and the combined output trounces any single sensor in the smartphone world.
Essential is really behind in their software department, notwithstanding their commitment in software support. Despite of the fact the camera designer was the one behind the iPhone's portrait mode, their software still can't live up to hardware potential. The current stock cam app, even with combined sensor output, can't come close to some GCam mods which use just a single sensor.
---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 AM ----------
The P20 Pro, on the other hand, got the good low light quality only in 10MP mode which pixel-bins the 40MP down to 10MP. Its texture and noise scores are still no better the than the G6. At 40MP its low light quality is worse than crap.
Yeah no.
You can't go using "it's nothing compared to DSLR's" when the difference is 50% more light per pixel. DSLR's are not dying because of quality but because it's convenient to have a good enough camera in your phone.
Obviously software is the key for modern cellphone imagery, that isn't even the point here. We already know what better processing does for the Essential sensor in the GCam mod. Which also works on the G6 incidentally and yields generally better results than LG's own app. But on the whole it's not nearly as good as the Pixel 2 for instance. Don't give me "but DXO said" because even G6 users don't believe they do better.
ChronoReverse said:
Yeah no.
You can't go using "it's nothing compared to DSLR's" when the difference is 50% more light per pixel. DSLR's are not dying because of quality but because it's convenient to have a good enough camera in your phone.
Obviously software is the key for modern cellphone imagery, that isn't even the point here. We already know what better processing does for the Essential sensor in the GCam mod. Which also works on the G6 incidentally and yields generally better results than LG's own app. But on the whole it's not nearly as good as the Pixel 2 for instance. Don't give me "but DXO said" because even G6 users don't believe they do better.
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I didn't say "it's nothing compared to DSLR's" . If you don't understand, I'll say it again: 50% more light is half a stop which is nothing in the photography world. Do you even know what 50% more light means?
DSLRs have better hardware, but are dying not because of lack of convenience, but because quality from smartphone are good enough these days. Convenience was always there from the beginning of the smartphone age, but quality has only gotten good enough a few years recently. DSLRs always have the hardware advantage, but smartphone have the software and that's what make the difference.
And G6 users can't do better than Pixel 2 like DXO because they don't know what to do to get as good as DXO, at least in terms of texture and noise. "On the whole" is another matter since it's the whole package, which means Google software is much better than LG software. Well, it's the software that makes the difference. That's the point I'm making. It's not the camera hardware, it's the software. Differences in smartphone camera hardware are peanuts.
He also neglects to mention OIS on the g6.
Also, the Xiaomi Mi 5s Plus has the exact same design, with the same two Sony IMX258 sensors, one RGB and one Monochrome, no OIS, and it has the exact same problems with low light, even in daylight, and shutter lag. That phone was released a year ago. So Xiaomi proved this idea is a failure.
crixley said:
He also neglects to mention OIS on the g6.
Also, the Xiaomi Mi 5s Plus has the exact same design, with the same two Sony IMX258 sensors, one RGB and one Monochrome, no OIS, and it has the exact same problems with low light, even in daylight, and shutter lag. That phone was released a year ago. So Xiaomi proved this idea is a failure.
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Since you mentioned OIS, what does OIS do to make the sensor output better, specifically texture and noise quality? If you don't know, it does exactly jack squat nothing to the sensor. It helps with the whole package, but that doesn't make people like it more than the Pixel 2.
And the Xiaomi 5s is not a failure, at least in terms of camera quality. The least you could do when trying to argue against it is to look up review results for yourself. Look at the comparison tool at GSMarena for the 5s in stereo mode compared to any other phone cam, instead of talking about something you know nothing about. People make the results and tools available and you don't even bother to look at. Sad!
Why people make unsubstantiated claims about something they don't understand or even try to learn about? Opinions can always be different, but at least have some informed opinion.
tnthd2 said:
Since you mentioned OIS, what does OIS do to make the sensor output better, specifically texture and noise quality? If you don't know, it does exactly jack squat nothing to the sensor. It helps with the whole package, but that doesn't make people like it more than the Pixel 2.
And the Xiaomi 5s is not a failure, at least in terms of camera quality. The least you could do when trying to argue against it is to look up review results for yourself. Look at the comparison tool at GSMarena for the 5s in stereo mode compared to any other phone cam, instead of talking about something you know nothing about. People make the results and tools available and you don't even bother to look at. Sad!
Why people make unsubstantiated claims about something they don't understand or even try to learn about? Opinions can always be different, but at least have some informed opinion.
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Lol you're one to talk. You don't think OIS effects low light photos? Interesting. You should do some reading. Noise levels in low light are highly related to OIS.
It is ranked about the same as essential phone by most reviewers.
If you're going to call me out, at least be right
crixley said:
Lol you're one to talk. You don't think OIS effects low light photos? Interesting. You should do some reading. Noise levels in low light are highly related to OIS.
It is ranked about the same as essential phone by most reviewers.
If you're going to call me out, at least be right
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Absolutely not. OIS reduces vibration from your hands to help getting sharper images. Same exposure parameters with or without OIS give exactly the same noise level. It does nothing to help noise from sensor. If you think it does, explain or cite how it does.
The effectiveness of OIS on smartphones is dubious at best due to the very short focal length on most phones. If it's really effective, those gimbals wouldn't be in high demand or that expensive. But this is another matter unrelated to the photo quality of sensor output.
tnthd2 said:
Absolutely not. OIS reduces vibration from your hands to help getting sharper images. Same exposure parameters with or without OIS give exactly the same noise level. It does nothing to help noise from sensor. If you think it does, explain or cite how it does.
The effectiveness of OIS on smartphones is dubious at best due to the very short focal length on most phones. If it's really effective, those gimbals wouldn't be in high demand or that expensive. But this is another matter unrelated to the photo quality of sensor output.
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"If your camera meters the need for a slow shutter speed which will cause camera shake, there are two ways to switch to a faster shutter speed:
1. Open up the aperture. Opening up the aperture (makes the hole bigger and therefore) allows more light to come in and so reduces the time the shutter needs to stay open. ["Shutter speed" is simply the time the camera keeps the shutter open.]
2. Often, especially in low-light situations, this will not even give you a fast enough shutter speed to hand hold the camera, so the second way is to use a higher ISO."
"At this slow shutter speed and without using a tripod, we will obtain a blurred image if we hand hold the camera. But, with Image Stabilization, we are now able to hand hold the camera without worrying about camera shake (1/15 sec. is 2 stops slower than 1/60 sec.).
If the light level falls further and the camera now needs an even slower shutter speed, say of 1/4 sec. (that's 4 stops slower than 1/60 sec.: 1/60 sec., 1/30 sec., 1/15 sec., 1/8 sec., 1/4 sec.), Image Stabilization will not help us eliminate camera shake in this case. It will, however, reduce its effect.
Note that IS works irrespective of the ISO used. Whereas High ISO forces you to use a high ISO (with resulting high noise and image degradation issues *1), IS allows you to keep at a low ISO while still reducing camera shake (thus keeping maximum image quality). That is, it does not mess with your selected exposure settings (you keep the shutter speed, aperture and ISO you want to use)"
crixley said:
"If your camera meters the need for a slow shutter speed which will cause camera shake, there are two ways to switch to a faster shutter speed:
1. Open up the aperture. Opening up the aperture (makes the hole bigger and therefore) allows more light to come in and so reduces the time the shutter needs to stay open. ["Shutter speed" is simply the time the camera keeps the shutter open.]
2. Often, especially in low-light situations, this will not even give you a fast enough shutter speed to hand hold the camera, so the second way is to use a higher ISO."
"At this slow shutter speed and without using a tripod, we will obtain a blurred image if we hand hold the camera. But, with Image Stabilization, we are now able to hand hold the camera without worrying about camera shake (1/15 sec. is 2 stops slower than 1/60 sec.).
If the light level falls further and the camera now needs an even slower shutter speed, say of 1/4 sec. (that's 4 stops slower than 1/60 sec.: 1/60 sec., 1/30 sec., 1/15 sec., 1/8 sec., 1/4 sec.), Image Stabilization will not help us eliminate camera shake in this case. It will, however, reduce its effect.
Note that IS works irrespective of the ISO used. Whereas High ISO forces you to use a high ISO (with resulting high noise and image degradation issues *1), IS allows you to keep at a low ISO while still reducing camera shake (thus keeping maximum image quality). That is, it does not mess with your selected exposure settings (you keep the shutter speed, aperture and ISO you want to use)"
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Hmm, that's a lot of quote, but not sure how much you understand or believe in all that. How do you adjust any of those settings with any (except one) cam app?
Whatever exposure setting you take a picture at with OIS on, I can take another picture at the same setting with OIS off. The noise level will be exactly the same. There might be a difference in sharpness, but how much difference will depend on how firm I can hold the camera or if I use an external stabilization device or not.
Like I've said, it helps with the whole package, but it doesn't explain how the G6 get higher noise score than the Pixel 2 which also has OIS. It's all in the software.
tnthd2 said:
Hmm, that's a lot of quote, but not sure how much you understand or believe in all that. How do you adjust any of those settings with any (except one) cam app?
Whatever exposure setting you take a picture at with OIS on, I can take another picture at the same setting with OIS off. The noise level will be exactly the same. There might be a difference in sharpness, but how much difference will depend on how firm I can hold the camera or if I use an external stabilization device or not.
Like I've said, it helps with the whole package, but it doesn't explain how the G6 get higher noise score than the Pixel 2 which also has OIS. It's all in the software.
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What that user was trying to convey is OIS let's you use a slower shutter with less motion blur due to camera shake. Slower shutter equals lower ISO, which likely results in less noise. This doesn't help for moving subjects though.
gk1984 said:
What that user was trying to convey is OIS let's you use a slower shutter with less motion blur due to camera shake. Slower shutter equals lower ISO, which likely results in less noise. This doesn't help for moving subjects though.
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That's the theory. Slower shutter speed *requires* lower ISO for the same lighting level, since the aperture is fixed. But in practice, I wouldn't give it up like that, but rather try to brace myself to reduce vibration or just use a stabilization device/tripod so I can shoot at the same exposure setting and get the same acceptable noise level.
tnthd2 said:
That's the theory. Slower shutter speed *requires* lower ISO for the same lighting level, since the aperture is fixed. But in practice, I wouldn't give it up like that, but rather try to brace myself to reduce vibration or just use a stabilization device/tripod so I can shoot at the same exposure setting and get the same acceptable noise level.
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I think you have it backwards.
A slow shutter allows you to use a low ISO.
A fast shutter requires a high ISO.
This assumes shutter an not aperture priority.
Also 1/focal length is the minimum shutter speed to not have noticeable shake at correct lighting.
I feel like this has gone a tad off topic. Not to say its completely irrelevant but I feel the starting point is, us comparing both the Ph1's and the P20 implementation to know whats different.
Hi everyone!
Which resolution do you use, 12 mpx or 20 mpx? 12mpx gives you hybrid zoom x2 but phone only uses rgb lens, while 20mpx supposedly uses both lenses to create a hybrid colour/b&w pic. So which do you use? I have it on 12mpx in order to use zoom but don't really know which is best.
Cheers!
It actually depends on your preference and the situation you want to create in the photo. I use the 20mp when shooting wide angle landscapes, while im using the 12mp when shooting portraits or closeups
earl_110 said:
It actually depends on your preference and the situation you want to create in the photo. I use the 20mp when shooting wide angle landscapes, while im using the 12mp when shooting portraits or closeups
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Thanks for replying! I've actually found that shooting a normal close up pic on 12mpx shoots in kind of a wide-angle effect. Last friday celebrating carnival at school, I was able to fit in a whole class of 28 kids from a few feet away. If u look at the pic, it looks like it has been shot on a wide-angle lens!
Any more opinions on camera config are more than welcome!
I don't believe that the 20MPx option uses both cameras. When you partially cover the B&W sensor, there is no noticable effect on the photo. Looks like it is only software based up-scaling and may get you jagged edges sometimes. After some testing with 20MPx and then 20MPx resized to 12MPx just for comparison, I prefer the 12MPx default setting.
_Marian_ said:
I don't believe that the 20MPx option uses both cameras. When you partially cover the B&W sensor, there is no noticable effect on the photo. Looks like it is only software based up-scaling and may get you jagged edges sometimes. After some testing with 20MPx and then 20MPx resized to 12MPx just for comparison, I prefer the 12MPx default setting.
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Hi Marian, thanks for your reply!
So on a phone with a dual camera, what would be the purpose of the dual lens?? If one is rgb and the other monocrome, don't they both work together to provide depth information and zoom? Or do all colour pics use just the one rgb lens and the other is exclusively for b&w pics?? Seems a little pointless to me...
You are totally right about the sw upscale to 20mp as any other camera app only detects a maximum resolution of 12 mp, but it seems strange to me that even on 12mp colour pictutes, the phone wouldn't use both lens (depth and zoom) because the inferior P20 Lite precisely doess that on all the reviews I read about it (I've always thought that was the point of all dual-lens cameras).
Cheers!
The B&W sensor should provide depth information. You can try different camera modes and cover the B&W sensor. The phone says "Please do not cover the lenses." in some camera modes. But if you don't put finger too close, nothing happens. I can't tell it does anything at all to the image quality which seems strange. Did they made some mistake in latest build? It only does have some effect on aperture mode when you can see heat haze effect on display. It sucks we don't have more options like jpg quality or sliders for post-process filters.