Related
I'm really frustrated with this forum. I was about to become a lurker again and stop contributing, but I realized that this is not the solution.
Since the Kaiser forums are the most active forums on the entire site, we need some changes to make it better for all.
What I'd like to see done to help the situation is the following:
(edit) A wiki that's easier to edit and navigate, e.g., mediawiki, which would mean
More folks updating the wiki with the ability to edit subsections
More folks viewing the wiki with auto-created tables of contents
(edit)A single 'post your questions here' newbie thread to limit the amount of new threads created
(edit2)A thread or wiki entry linked at the top of every forum with proper forum etiquette.
(edit2) idea about restricting users according to post count removed
All of these suggestions will make this site more manageable and usable for all.
If you have any ideas, comments or opinions for or against, or just want to add to the list of suggestions, I look forward to them.
UPDATE 03-13-08
Thanks to Flar and the mods for pushing for new forums! Hopefully these changes, along with more member contributions, we will be able to fight back the redundant thread problem. I've noticed that quite a few senior members have taken a similar stance as I have with new users & redundant threads. I've been trying to either:
Giving the new user a search term (that we know will help), or
given the new user a way to navigate and use the resources here, mostly created by us to prevent users from asking questions in the first place, or
given the noob the links he wanted.
If you're genuinely interested in helping others, you'll realize that two of the three ways actually teach a person new things, which means they'll be better off on their own, while #3 only encourages them to ask more questions.
Finally, for all of you that may be new or have less post counts, it's not the amount of time you've been here reading, because that's not contributing back to the community. So my suggestion to you would be to come back and re-read this thread after you've contributed back to the forum by having at least 500+ genuinely helpful posts and see if you feel the same way.
And I don't mean suggestions to fix a soft key issue by bashing the keyboard with a screwdriver, like someone who has flamed this thread
_Alex_ said:
I'm really frustrated with this forum. I was about to become a lurker again and stop contributing, but I realized that this is not the solution.
Since the Kaiser forums are the most active forums on the entire site, we need some changes to make it better for all.
What I'd like to see done to help the situation is the following:
Restrict new threads to members (30 posts), forcing junior members to reply to existing threads. If new threads continue to be a problem, increase the limit to senior member status (100 posts).
More folks updating the wiki
actual comments for wiki updates so folks know what's new(I'm guilty of not doing this too) or an actual what's new page.
Both of these suggestions will make this site more manageable and usable for all.
If you have any ideas, comments or opinions for or against, or just want to add to the list of suggestions, I look forward to them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I couldn't agree more. A big part of the problem is the refusal of some to read or search before posting. When they don't get an immediate answer in an existing thread they start a new one. Maybe the answer is to allow the number of daily posts to be restricted by member status, with senior members being unresticted and moving downward from there.
To bad you can't put all of the threads inside the new sticky. That way, to post a new thread, you had to go thru the new sticky. Other than that, the only option I can think of is to hunt the redundant thread poster down and dismember them slowly on live t.v. broadcasted only to XDA members.
Edit:
I personally vote for my second option.
Agree with both suggestions. Mods...any comments? I have not dealt with forum software before...are those restrictions able to be implemented with this forum?
I've always liked the idea of limiting new people from starting threads, but I don't think we can judge on number of posts. I think this will just end with people joining, throwing an extra 30 useless posts into the first threads they come across, then posting their question thread.
I've always liked the idea of making someone wait 24 hours between registering and posting AT ALL. This way, we can still help those people with a genuine problem fairly quickly (rather than making them wait a week) but still weed out those who ask questions that could be answered by 2 seconds of thinking or looking.
Just my 2 cents!
Great suggestions _Alex_. There should be a stew time for new forum members. A 30 post limit should do it because by then one should have learned a little bit at least.
And now that there's a Google search box near the top of the page HOPEFULLY that cuts down on redundant new post.
@kwickone - Yes, it's possible and quite easy at that.
maybe there should be a noob section like hofo has for banned members. and you have to wait a while before you can post in the regular threads. then wait even longer before you can start a new thread.
Perhaps a rethinking........................................
Okay, this is a common problem on here. Over and over -- endless threads on this subject. It cannot be solved with current technology.
Embrace the problem.
Sandwich method:
Commend them on their new purchase of the new phone they got. Great!
Then advise them to search. Read and learn.
Then Commend their enthusiasm for Any effort they show.
...
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
This forum has turned into a user manual / tech support.
sd73ta said:
maybe there should be a noob section like hofo has for banned members. and you have to wait a while before you can post in the regular threads. then wait even longer before you can start a new thread.
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Click to collapse
There already is a noob section...the problem is no one reads it!
I waited 3 months before my 1st post or flash. I shadowed the threads, followed the chefs at that time (Faria, Molski, Xelencin, Risidoro) and watched the results of people flashing their ROMs. I waited till all was clear before I flashed.
Nowadays, people are buying expensive devices and just jumping into deep water without knowing how to swim and the cry to the lifeguard for help.
Would there be any way to link keywords to threads that already exist before its posted... eg if I started a thread re "no sound help me I dont read"... before it posted a list of threads that exist already would pop up saying something like have you looked at these...? perhaps wikis could be linked in the same way... or is this not possible...? cheers
dwny said:
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
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This is not very userfriendly for people who do search before posting. Considering not every new user who joins the forum is a "lazy" noob.
Maybe it is an idea to have it a bit like the "Facepunch forum" of GMOD. (for non gamer, it a HL2 mod forum) They had exactly the same problem only a little bit bigger then it is on this forum.
They solved it by some sort of rate system. Forum users can rate a post. If a user get a certain amount of negative points he is banned from the forum for 24 or something like that. You can also rate someone if he makes clever remarks or usefull contributions and rate him with a "thanks!"
This way people know they are being watched for stupid questions that are posted over and over again and search before they do something stupid. After all, saying stupid thing will cost you a time ban.
If you want to know exactly how it works. Register at the facepunch forum to check it out. It really does work. http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/
Shadowdh said:
Would there be any way to link keywords to threads that already exist before its posted... eg if I started a thread re "no sound help me I dont read"... before it posted a list of threads that exist already would pop up saying something like have you looked at these...? perhaps wikis could be linked in the same way... or is this not possible...? cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even from my rudimentary knowledge of PHP based forums such as XDA, that would be extremely prohibitive in terms of processing power. Context-sensitive searching (even cached) is very resource intensive, and even implementing it on the Kaiser section ONLY would probably bring the boards to an impressive crawl.
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This seems a bit extreme. I bought my Kaiser and spent two or three days reading the wiki, boards, and specific threads about the Tilt. Still, I had a few questions that weren't addressed by existing threads and needed to start at thread. I agree with Alex's idea that there should be a delay (or post count check) for starting a new THREAD, but certainly not posting in general.
Likewise, I'm beginning to toy with cooking my own ROMs, and what if I was interested in starting my own thread to announce its availability? Certainly I shouldn't be required to append it to an existing (and likely unrelated) thread?
To the OP's original concern, I don't think it's a terribly unique thing to XDA. I frequent many forums, and it happens everywhere, particularly those which address technology or relationships. Everyone seems to think that their issues are unique and that they won't be covered in an existing topic. Likewise, many people just aren't comfortable with reading technical specifications, instructions, or explanations. I have dozens of friends capable of READING manuals for the devices they own and getting exactly what they need, but they don't trust the accuracy of the information unless I tell it to them myself.
Reading a bunch of instructions and trusting they are accurate is much scarier than having someone explain it to you, even if they're just regurgitating information already contained in dozens of wikis, texts or posts. This is the primary reason we have TEACHERS; most people are capable of reading everything they need to know, but prefer to have someone relate it to them in a way which caters to their understanding.
Long-winded thoughts aside, I agree with Alex's suggestions in their entirety.
i dont agree with the whole 30 or 100 postsbefore starting a tread but i do agree with the fact that it's annoying to read the same stuff over and over again people comming in with the same problems and questions but there are also people like myself that are longtime members but actually do read alot of posts so that they dont need to ask anything and dont make the 100 or so recommended post before starting a new tread..
but thats my opinion
I don't see how not being able to start a new thread will help.
Assuming I actually did search for my answer and wasn't able to find anything, where would I turn? If I can't start a new thread, I would have no choice but to hijack a different thread. That would probably upset the people involved in that thread more than creating a new thread that they could easily ignore.
How about the new thread button routing through search? So that when you entered the title, it did the search, and at the bottom of the search results there was the button that actually started a new thread.
Steal Google's Idea
Okay, How bout this:
When you open www.xda-developers.com you get this:
A Huge Search Box. Nothing else. You Have to go thru the search box to Even access this site.
?????
...
Jewcookie said:
This is not very userfriendly for people who do search before posting. Considering not every new user who joins the forum is a "lazy" noob.
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It's a matter of setting standards....there are none here!
If you know what the rules are, then you'll follow them....but you have to have rules 1st.
tdsuen said:
I don't see how not being able to start a new thread will help
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Click to collapse
That's where the problem lies.
How many new issues are there actually? Most of the issues are when people have a problem with a specific ROM. What's been happening lately is that the Rom threads are huge now and to gain attention to their inquiry, people are starting new threads. If you take a look at who's doing this, it's members under 3 months
(Just my opinion & observation)
zcink said:
Okay, How bout this:
When you open www.xda-developers.com you get this:
A Huge Search Box. Nothing else. You Have to go thru the search box to Even access this site. ?????
Okay still Drunk at the time.
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LOL... It's great to see a drunk guy contributing to this thread as it adds a touch of humor to the entire situation
FWIW, one of the new members decided to post their opinion about our frustration venting over in the regular Kaiser forum (which I read very infrequently because I know that's going to be filled with support requests).
I'm wondering how many new users will chime in on that thread...
arrogance and elitism (were all here for the same thing)
Why not add a few more Mod's and just delete them (threads or posts) quick and easy? Have an automated response to the person that: "the answers you needed were already posted in another thread".
dwny said:
It's a matter of setting standards....there are none here!
If you know what the rules are, then you'll follow them....but you have to have rules 1st.
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Click to collapse
I totally agree that there needs to be some forum etiquette that needs to be followed, especially regarding new threads. The question is how we go about enforcing it...
Hopefully the mods/admin will read this thread and take our suggestions to heart.
Sober
Okay
A totally Sane -- Sober guy -- was just joking bout the drunk part.
A Huge Search Engine
You have to go thru the search Engine box to enter this site.
You can't miss.
Anyone who does not search will be Shot On site and put into the Ovens!
Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
Too many people are trying to take the easy road and post a new thread on a subject or idea, usually asking a question about something that has already been answered instead of doing a simple search!
I've been a member here for a couple years now and haven't needed to post very much because, if you take the time, the information is out there. 99.9% of the time, you aren't the first person to ask a question, have a problem, or hit a wall.
If you're having trouble doing something that was posted in a thread, POST YOUR QUESTION IN THAT THREAD!!
It seems as though there are a lot of newbies who are anxious to root their Inc, which is fine: If you pay attention, read the instructions and most of the thread before you begin, and follow them to a T . Every time I have a problem either rooting or installing a ROM or something else, I am the one who did something wrong.
Some of you are probably new to the Thread concept, which is also fine. It's very frustrating getting used to how they work, and learning the "right" way to do things- but trust me, it's worth it.
Posting a new thread is like standing on a chair in the middle of a crowded room and screaming out a question. If your in the wrong room (i.e. wrong section), people are going to be upset. If the question was already answered by another group (i.e. another forum), people are also going to be upset. If you aren't sure if you should start a new thread, you probably shouldn't.
Take the time and READ THE RULES! Here they are if you don't know where to find them:
New forum rules, please read!
1. Search before posting.
Use one of our search functions before posting, whether you have a question or something new to share, it's very likely someone already asked that question or shared that news.
2. Member conduct.
2.1 Language: XDA is a worldwide community. As a result what is ‘ok’ to say in your part of the world may not be ok in someone else’s part of the world. Please think about who is reading what you write. Keep in mind that what you think of as acceptable use of language may not be acceptable to others. Conversely, while reading member posts, remember that word you find offensive may not be to the writer. Tolerance is a two way street.
2.2 Nudity: XDA is used by people of all ages, including minors. It's not acceptable to post nude/pornographic imagery, which includes exposure of the male or female genitalia or of female breasts.
2.3 Flaming: XDA was founded as a group of people sharing information about certain mobile phones. Sharing does not involve virtual yelling (flaming) it does involve working together to solve problems in an environment of mutual respect and understanding. Losing your temper and flaming another member, or group of members, is not acceptable behavior.
2.4 Personal attacks, racial, political and/or religious discussions: XDA is a discussion forum about certain mobile phones. Mobile phones are not racial, political, religious or personally offensive, therefore none of these types of discussions are permitted on XDA.
2.5 New Members: Treat new members the way you would have liked to have been treated when you were a new member. Provide the new members with guidance, advice and instruction always with respect and courtesy.
2.6 All members are expected to read and adhere to the XDA rules.
3. Post only using a clear subject and message.
You're most likely to receive a helpful answer to your question if you use a short subject title that describes your problem and a message that explains in detail what your problem is and what you've tried to solve it.
4. Use the English language.
We understand that with all the different nationalities not everyone speaks English well, but please try. If you're really unable to post in English use an online translator, You're free to include your original message in your own language below the English translation.
5. Post a message only once.
As a large forum we don't need unnecessary clutter, You're free to edit your message as you like, so if you do not receive an answer revisit your message and see if you can describe your problem better. Not everyone is online at the same time, it might take a while before you receive an answer.
6. Do not post warez.
If a piece of software requires you to pay to use it, either pay or find your cracks and serials somewhere else. We do not accept warez nor do we permit any member to promote or describe ways in which Warez, cracks, serial codes or other means of avoiding payment, can be obtained.
7. Do not spam.
If you wish to advertise a product, contact us we provide ads. But do not post it in the forums, it will be removed and you're likely to receive a ban.
You are however allowed to sell used goods like your own device, parts of your device or accessories for your device in the marketplace forum, please read the rules there before posting. (This rule includes signatures, if you use a signature it will appear in your post)
8. Donations.
We appreciate all donations to xda-developers.com, it keeps our forum online and well maintained. As a user you're allowed to ask for donations in your signature as a thank you for your hard work. However donations up front are not allowed, this forum is about sharing, not about getting paid to do something, that's what your job is for.
9. Don't get us in trouble.
Don't post copyrighted materials or do other things that will obviously lead to legal trouble. If you wouldn't do it on your own homepage, you probably don't want to do it here either. This does not mean we agree with everything the software piracy lobby try to impose on us, it simply means you cannot break any laws here, since we'll end up dealing with legal hassle caused by you. Please use common sense: respect the forum, its users, and those that write great code.
10. Help others if you can.
If you see posts from others where you can help out, please do. This place exists because people are helping each other, and even if you are relatively new to the matter, there's probably already quite a few people newer than you that would benefit from what you've learned. Don't be shy.
11. Don’t post with the intent on selling something.
As an elaboration to rule number 7, don’t use XDA to advertise your product or service. If you are the proprietor of a for-pay product or service, you may use XDA to get feedback, provide beta access, or offer support on the product, but you may not make any posts with the primary intent of selling. This includes posting press releases, announcements, or links to downloads for trial software. The only exception to this is when you’re posting an exclusive release to XDA.
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails then you may contact a moderator with clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence you created the work then in the spirit of sharing all work will remain posted on the forums.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So instead of starting a new thread like "How do I.." or "Where do I" or "Why can't I..." Do a search of the threads, Google it, or even hop on over to PPC Geeks, Trust me- you'll find the answers you're looking for.
BTW - Thanks to Mikey1022 for moderating
+100000000000000000000000
I wish people had to read this before they could post new threads. This forum seems to be worse than most of the other android forums on xda... not sure why.
Everyone who disagrees with this should check out the nexus one forum to get an idea of how lax things are here.
You better watch it. Some people may take offense to this. people also have to be aware when they do make a new thread that it is in the correct section. Too many questions are being posted in Development instead of General. Let's keep the sections on topic so people can find what they came looking for.
I agree, but I can see the other side as well.
The "Root process" thread is up to 108 pages. Sure, searching helps, but you are still poring over pages and pages of forums for hours. I kind of learned that this was the buy-in from my WinMo days, but that doesn't make it less frustrating.
One advantage to sticking to existing threads, however, is that people who are successful will probably post back to that thread, with any variations they used, whereas they are less likely to post to a new thread.
Calibob2001 said:
Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
Too many people are trying to take the easy road and post a new thread on a subject or idea, usually asking a question about something that has already been answered instead of doing a simple search!
I've been a member here for a couple years now and haven't needed to post very much because, if you take the time, the information is out there. 99.9% of the time, you aren't the first person to ask a question, have a problem, or hit a wall.
If you're having trouble doing something that was posted in a thread, POST YOUR QUESTION IN THAT THREAD!!
It seems as though there are a lot of newbies who are anxious to root their Inc, which is fine: If you pay attention, read the instructions and most of the thread before you begin, and follow them to a T . Every time I have a problem either rooting or installing a ROM or something else, I am the one who did something wrong.
Some of you are probably new to the Thread concept, which is also fine. It's very frustrating getting used to how they work, and learning the "right" way to do things- but trust me, it's worth it.
Posting a new thread is like standing on a chair in the middle of a crowded room and screaming out a question. If your in the wrong room (i.e. wrong section), people are going to be upset. If the question was already answered by another group (i.e. another forum), people are also going to be upset. If you aren't sure if you should start a new thread, you probably shouldn't.
Take the time and READ THE RULES! Here they are if you don't know where to find them:
So instead of starting a new thread like "How do I.." or "Where do I" or "Why can't I..." Do a search of the threads, Google it, or even hop on over to PPC Geeks, Trust me- you'll find the answers you're looking for.
BTW - Thanks to Mikey1022 for moderating
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How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
Calibob2001 said:
Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You know they won't. The ones who post these repeated topics are the ones who freak out when they're lost, post a topic, and hit refresh all day instead of looking for the answer. The only ones who actually read this are the ones already pissed off about it.
barry1685 said:
How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
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LOL, I didn't even read it. Just scrolled to through the comments
bluetooth_decay said:
I agree, but I can see the other side as well.
The "Root process" thread is up to 108 pages. Sure, searching helps, but you are still poring over pages and pages of forums for hours. I kind of learned that this was the buy-in from my WinMo days, but that doesn't make it less frustrating.
One advantage to sticking to existing threads, however, is that people who are successful will probably post back to that thread, with any variations they used, whereas they are less likely to post to a new thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are so many pages of topics because of the issue that is being described. There is a very handy function called "search" that, while not perfect, at least narrows results down for you. You can search within a Section, Topic or down to a single thread for key words.
Odds are, if you are on here you know how to navigate the web. If you can't perform a basic search in a topic or thread then please don't try to root your phone or follow any instructions to change, modify or "hack" anything.
As was brought out by [OP], if you WANT to do something that you think will be useful to you, read up on it. If you do run into an issue, search the key word of your issue. Entering "boot loop", "frozen", "Error message 123" will return something to help you find your answer. Odds are, you are not alone and, if you find you are alone, return to the thread where you were following instructions to do whatever it was you want to do and post a reply describing your issues. [OP] or others who are familiar with the process will help. Patience is a must.
barry1685 said:
How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
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Click to collapse
Far too long than I care to admit - My first draft was rather angry and the overtone has calmed quite a bit...
And even if ONE newbie reads it and gleans even a whisper of insight as to how to operate the forums, then I have been 100% successful- even if 1% of those who read it take this to heart, at this point, that's still 2 fewer Threads the moderators have to close down...
MY Gripe
My biggest grip is those people: "What Music Player Are You Using" I don't really care and that's usually a personal preference. After joining the android section of XDA three months ago. It's astonishing to see how many DUMB post go up...It makes android users look idiotic? I'll admit I'm a noob but you don't see me posting stupid crap all over the place. This time I believe I've found the right section to express my opinion. I still can't get over how many crappy posts are out there. UGH
~PLUR~ Peace Love Unity Respect
DJyoSNOW
Impatient PMers
What's really not acceptable and why I actually stopped helping people in the "Newbie Forums" is because when people wanted more information/answers, I would start to help and then soon after I would receive a PM asking for more help, which is wasteful because then instead of answering the question(s) for the site as a whole, only you are getting your "quick fix".
I am a noob.
I read it and it explains alot.
Thank you. Your site is very helpful and has saved me from problems in the past.
I have posted something once and i was really in a bind but no reply on it. I always search for my questions first and with alot of digging i can find the answers (Most of my answers came from you site by people that blow me away at how knowledgable they are) and most of the people who answer questions are very patient here, (even though there was a thread right above the question with the answer) thank you guys for doing great work.
Again i am very new to all of this and i couldnt be writing this from my rooted incredible with s off and cm 6.0.2 that is overclocked and i did some minor hacks via your forums. Thank you again.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
I read it.. nice post very Mich appreciated.. not a newb but sometimes feel that way when I'm stuck!
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
I'm sorry to have been THAT guy.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
Thank You
I read threads on this site every single day but I am much more involved in Android Central (they are smaller and less cluttered IMO), however, I rarely post anything because if you just dig a little deep you WILL find you answer in here.... I just wanted to Say THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS... I FEEL THE SAME WAY EVERY FRIGGIN DAY.... in the time that it takes for someone to post a new thread and wait for a response, they could have already found the answer themselves. and to top it off, you can search the threads for specifics....
I THINK THAT YOUR OP SHOULD BE A STANDARD WARNING TO ANY AND EVERYONE THAT WANTS TO START A NEW THREAD
lol, you've been a member since 08 and you're just now figuring this out? No offense, but I doubt this will do any real damage. I constantly see these threads and it doesn't do anything cause people will ALWAYS keep posting stuff like this unless it's a hidden subforum. Its ****ty, and I don't mean to rain on your parade, but it's just how it works on forums.
one main problem i see, and im sure its why so many people post the same question 12 different times, is the search on the forums suck, you can type in a specific thing and even if you switch between thread or posts, it brings up EVERYTHING (example: i need to find "honeycomb launcher dock" do i type that in the search, it will bring up EVERY post or thread with ANY of those words in it, and 99.9% of the time its ROMs, no apps, .apk files or anything close to what you are looking for, now when ive looked for a ROM, yea like you said it works 99.9% of the time, with anything else its crap) .to me that was a terrible terrible mistake made by the person that set up the "search tool" on this site. and i think THAT is why there are soooo many "double" posts. the search tool needs to be set up the correct way.
Sonic Design said:
one main problem i see, and im sure its why so many people post the same question 12 different times, is the search on the forums suck, you can type in a specific thing and even if you switch between thread or posts, it brings up EVERYTHING (example: i need to find "honeycomb launcher dock" do i type that in the search, it will bring up EVERY post or thread with ANY of those words in it, and 99.9% of the time its ROMs, no apps, .apk files or anything close to what you are looking for, now when ive looked for a ROM, yea like you said it works 99.9% of the time, with anything else its crap) .to me that was a terrible terrible mistake made by the person that set up the "search tool" on this site. and i think THAT is why there are soooo many "double" posts. the search tool needs to be set up the correct way.
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You could enclose those words in quotes, but then it would have to match that phrase perfectly. I personally use google instead of any forum searches as none of them are really all that great (unless I'm searching a particular users' posts).
codybear said:
You could enclose those words in quotes, but then it would have to match that phrase perfectly. I personally use google instead of any forum searches as none of them are really all that great (unless I'm searching a particular users' posts).
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yea very true, i like to take what most GM's here say and change it
"google is your friend, the forum search is not"
A great resource to help with Google searches are at the google is your friend link in my signature. I usually direct people to that when they say they can't find anything using Google. Just thought I'd point it out so everyone can help spread this resource to those that are not Google savvy.
First let me qualify (or disqualify) myself.
I do not own a Viewsonic G Tablet.
I own other Android devices.
I have a strong background in development and programming. I am the Director of Engineering for a small company in Tennessee where we develop adult amusement devices (no, not porn) such as slots, video poker, etc.
I am proficient in many languages, as well as 'nix operating systems.
I have cooked my own roms in the past.
Second...
I have been lurking around the XDA developer forum since back in the Windows Mobile 6 days. I currently have an Android phone and an Android tablet (not a Viewsonic).
Like everyone else here, the prospect of the new build is tasty. Wanting to delve into it myself to see what I can do, It is helpful to me to look (like many others) in the development forums to see what I can see.
However...
Let this serve as a warning to anyone who is not a "Dev" on this forum.
This forum, like many other here at XDA belongs to a handful of "Devs" and you are not one of these "Devs".
Your best bet is to lurk like the rest of us. I don't care if you have a Honeycomb port that will work on this device or a pill that cures cancer. They don't want to see it and you don't want the hassle of being flamed for trying to contribute. They will get to it and you will not beat them to it.
Devs work hard. They do the work for free and they should be revered and respected. But make no mistake, they know it and are not afraid to tell you to STFU and GTFO for merely making a suggestion or comment.
So do all of us a favor, stick to the General forums and don't poke the bear.
I do not plan to respond to this thread and it should probably be closed immediately.
neo4uo said:
Not trying to poke your bear, but even this thread should not be posted in here. This needs to be moved to the general section. This thread defines the word ironic.
Peace \oo/
Sent from my VEGAn-TAB-v1.0.0B5.1 using Tapatalk
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.........lmfao i was about to say the same thing, this thread totally defeat its purpose, the fact is no matter how much you tell people to "search" "post in the proper section" "dont ask for ETAs" and so on theres going to be someone that dont follows the rules, and WTF???? "This forum, like many other here at XDA belongs to a handful of Devs"??? this forum belogs to the community just as much as it does the devs......obviously someone did not read the "state of the site anoucement......tsk......tskk
I am poking the Bear, and here it goes.
If you want us peasants to stop posting in the Development forum of ANY device, simply create a tag for Developers, make it so only "x" amount of posts and a review by the mods, will grant someone this tag. Then you limit access to the Dev forum to tag holders only. Then, when one of the Devs (whos' work is tremendous and I highly resect) has something ready to go, they can post a link or a file in the General section.
That way us 'morons' who are not welcome here can't possibly get in their way with our useless posts and questions. I am tired of the elitist attitude that some have here. Yes a lot of you know more than I do about this stuff, yes I am learning to do this stuff in my SPARE TIME. I am not in college, I do not have a job that allows me to sit in front of a computer all day(don't want it either). When I do have the time to get invloved, or if I find something useful, like many of us, I want to post it. I don't want to be a leach. I can only speak for myself with this. I may not be able to give as much as the devs do, but how can I possibly learn if I dno't ask questions?
The Search feature that people here are so in love with and can't wait to tell us "search is your friend"?
Its almost useless. Its rare that I can find what I'm looking for in the limited amount of time I have to be on here. Its generally easier for me, and many others I suspect, to ask the question and wait for an answer.
Then ask the question. The big complaint is that most don't even try to look or they post "LOOK>>>>>HONEYCOMB ON THE NOOK.....WHY DONT WE HAVE IT YET" in the dev section. Granted the search function isnt great but filling up the forum with the same questions over and over is what makes the search function useless to some. Although I seem to be able to find what I'm looking for most of the time with a little work. The moderators have asked that people not post general questions as new threads in the dev section yet it keeps being done.
its not an elitist attitude about the dev section. Its a request to keep the posts to development only or at least inside the correct thread and not keep asking the same question over and over with a new thread.
I agree with limited access...
Frrrrrrunkis said:
I am poking the Bear, and here it goes.
If you want us peasants to stop posting in the Development forum of ANY device, simply create a tag for Developers, make it so only "x" amount of posts and a review by the mods, will grant someone this tag. Then you limit access to the Dev forum to tag holders only. Then, when one of the Devs (whos' work is tremendous and I highly resect) has something ready to go, they can post a link or a file in the General section.
That way us 'morons' who are not welcome here can't possibly get in their way with our useless posts and questions. I am tired of the elitist attitude that some have here. Yes a lot of you know more than I do about this stuff, yes I am learning to do this stuff in my SPARE TIME. I am not in college, I do not have a job that allows me to sit in front of a computer all day(don't want it either). When I do have the time to get invloved, or if I find something useful, like many of us, I want to post it. I don't want to be a leach. I can only speak for myself with this. I may not be able to give as much as the devs do, but how can I possibly learn if I dno't ask questions?
The Search feature that people here are so in love with and can't wait to tell us "search is your friend"?
Its almost useless. Its rare that I can find what I'm looking for in the limited amount of time I have to be on here. Its generally easier for me, and many others I suspect, to ask the question and wait for an answer.
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I think the idea of tags is a great idea, but once again I don't know how easy this function would be.
thebadfrog said:
Then ask the question.
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Unfortunately, you're changing the rules of the present discussion with that. The OP stated "Devs work hard. They do the work for free and they should be revered and respected. But make no mistake, they know it and are not afraid to tell you to STFU and GTFO for merely making a suggestion or comment." The implication of that is you SHOULDN'T ask the question, you should just STFU.
IMO, the OP is WAY out of line. If the devs don't want comments/suggestions/questions, then they should keep their dev work private and not open it up for public consumption. Yes, the rest of the community wouldn't benefit as much in that case, but there's no excuse for an arrogant attitude like saying STFU for GTFO if someone merely makes a suggestion or comment on something that's been posted for public consumption.
If the devs are simply doing their work and sharing it just to have people fawn all over them for it and expect not to have to deal with the questions/comments/suggestions of the "unwashed masses", well, sorry, the world (and this site/forum, from my understanding) doesn't work that way.
Its the answering "How do I install clockwork?" question that is posted all the time even tho its clearly posted as a sticky. "I've followed the directions exactly and I cant get TnTlite to install".....wrong....you havent or it would have installed. "When are we gonna get an update to X rom?"......"How come we don't have Honeycomb yet?"....."Your rom bricked my device"....."Why won't someone answer my question? that was posted 15 minutes ago.....The devs do this on their own time and for the most part are happy to answer questions but when its clear that someone has no intention of learning for themselves and just want the info handed to them on a silver platter.......well....it gets old
The OP is out of line with his "psa" unless he speaks on behalf of the collective body of said developers.
This is a rhetorical post, I will not be responding again.
Edit: see what I did there with that last line?
atakapa said:
I like turtles
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Collaaaaa!!!!
If we want to grow the G Tab community ( aka continue to receive the excellent support from the Devs) we need to grow the number of G Tab users. If I were considering a new tablet purchase and stopped by here to check out the G Tab, I would not put it high on my list. If new members post in the wrong section or dup a post, it's Ok to send them a "Friendly" reminder, but to blast them like this is an insult to everyone here. Hell they might even be driven to buy a windows mobile 6 product.
In the thread here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1069298
The admins posed this challenge:
For lack of a better alternative. I challenge anyone to come up with a better alternative, and share it with us.
After goodness knows how much time under this username, and a bit under another (which I also didn't post with) I have to admit that now when I was finally ready to share something with the community (specific to the Motorola Photon) that I ran into this well intended, but somewhat counterproductive at times limit.
The admins acknowledge this:
We get that people might have experience from other fora and think this is a little over the top for them, but there are rarely any developers amongst the people that want to create new threads. There are a few people with a genuine need to post a thread in the developmental fora (developers), these people can contact a moderator to help them get sorted.
However, I have very little time and don't plan to find a mod, convince them I'm legit, etc just to share something that doesn't benefit me (harsh, but true). I make custom ROMs and other bits for my own private use as I device hop every couple of months and don't share them, really, ever because I don't want to support anything (or risk liability in any way). Sometimes I'll run other people's work (CM rocks), but more often I'll try to do something hybrid or unique. I'm using the time I would have spent posting trying to contribute to the community in another way, this message.
So... that's all just context for my suggestion answering the admin's challenge.
When doing a "can user post" check and determining posting has not already been verified do the following
Pull the account creation date, pick an age (say 6 months) and older for additional checking. Accounts younger than 6 months get rejected like everyone does now
Display a page stating "Determining eligibility" and force them to fill out a CAPTCHA of some sort
Pull the page, section or forum access logs. Since I don't know what is stored, I don't know what can be pulled. However, if User created his account 2 years ago and has accessed 4 main areas, and 6 subtopics he's probably not spam. Continue checking
Flag users somehow when they visit developer forums. If I have only visited a single device's development forum, even if the account is 2 years old, maybe additional checking is warranted, maybe not. If I've hit 3 or more devices in a measurable way in that 3 years though, chances are I'm not a noob
Based on some calculation of forums visited, decrease the amount of posts needed to gain dev forum posting access (or waive it altogehter)
Looping in data about files downloaded would be useful here too. In practical terms this means more site tracking of users, which raises space concerns. My recommendation is not to track every page, only increment a specific dev forum counter for number of unique pages visited, one for pages revisited (as if you are checking on updates for a ROM) and files downloaded
Based on the above, you should have a workable experience driven decrement system by which posting access can either be granted or made easier for users who are legitimately competent to post in the dev areas.
Also, I thought I should post these non-development specific reasons to post in the development forums:
- Adding money to a bounty (such as the bounty to get the Motorola Photon's GSM unlocked for US Domestic Towers)
- Providing output from something they were requested to by devs (error messages, radio versions, etc).
That's pretty much it, but both can be useful. Might not have gotten Galaxy Tabs in the US unlocked for Voice and Data without people posting dumps after all, as I recall (not that they worked all that well, or on all carriers, but hey).
I will try to make it back to xda in the next couple of days or weeks to answer any questions this thread might engender but my time and attention is spotty so no promises. Please don't flame me, or send me nasty PM's. Or any PM's really - I literally just read a PM from 6 years ago on another forum I frequent. I never think to check them. If you want to contact me in a way that doesn't involve XDA, use Twitter. I'm ardosi, obviously.
Hope this is a marginally useful suggestion and not overly long winded
---------- Post added at 01:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 AM ----------
I will add one more thing... the increment system should be over time. So, someone with a 2yr old account can't just visit a dozen forums in an evening and be able to post. It's the persistant, ongoing access to multiple forums, revisiting some of the same threads and regular downloads from the dev section that should be giving the indication that this is *probably* not someone who is clueless.
It's all risk management obviously, but with some devices having very little developer activity at all, it would be nice to lean a little bit more towards allowing additional posting.
ardosi said:
In the thread here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1069298
The admins posed this challenge:
For lack of a better alternative. I challenge anyone to come up with a better alternative, and share it with us.
After goodness knows how much time under this username, and a bit under another (which I also didn't post with) I have to admit that now when I was finally ready to share something with the community (specific to the Motorola Photon) that I ran into this well intended, but somewhat counterproductive at times limit.
The admins acknowledge this:
We get that people might have experience from other fora and think this is a little over the top for them, but there are rarely any developers amongst the people that want to create new threads. There are a few people with a genuine need to post a thread in the developmental fora (developers), these people can contact a moderator to help them get sorted.
However, I have very little time and don't plan to find a mod, convince them I'm legit, etc just to share something that doesn't benefit me (harsh, but true). I make custom ROMs and other bits for my own private use as I device hop every couple of months and don't share them, really, ever because I don't want to support anything (or risk liability in any way). Sometimes I'll run other people's work (CM rocks), but more often I'll try to do something hybrid or unique. I'm using the time I would have spent posting trying to contribute to the community in another way, this message.
So... that's all just context for my suggestion answering the admin's challenge.
When doing a "can user post" check and determining posting has not already been verified do the following
Pull the account creation date, pick an age (say 6 months) and older for additional checking. Accounts younger than 6 months get rejected like everyone does now
Display a page stating "Determining eligibility" and force them to fill out a CAPTCHA of some sort
Pull the page, section or forum access logs. Since I don't know what is stored, I don't know what can be pulled. However, if User created his account 2 years ago and has accessed 4 main areas, and 6 subtopics he's probably not spam. Continue checking
Flag users somehow when they visit developer forums. If I have only visited a single device's development forum, even if the account is 2 years old, maybe additional checking is warranted, maybe not. If I've hit 3 or more devices in a measurable way in that 3 years though, chances are I'm not a noob
Based on some calculation of forums visited, decrease the amount of posts needed to gain dev forum posting access (or waive it altogehter)
Looping in data about files downloaded would be useful here too. In practical terms this means more site tracking of users, which raises space concerns. My recommendation is not to track every page, only increment a specific dev forum counter for number of unique pages visited, one for pages revisited (as if you are checking on updates for a ROM) and files downloaded
Based on the above, you should have a workable experience driven decrement system by which posting access can either be granted or made easier for users who are legitimately competent to post in the dev areas.
Also, I thought I should post these non-development specific reasons to post in the development forums:
- Adding money to a bounty (such as the bounty to get the Motorola Photon's GSM unlocked for US Domestic Towers)
- Providing output from something they were requested to by devs (error messages, radio versions, etc).
That's pretty much it, but both can be useful. Might not have gotten Galaxy Tabs in the US unlocked for Voice and Data without people posting dumps after all, as I recall (not that they worked all that well, or on all carriers, but hey).
I will try to make it back to xda in the next couple of days or weeks to answer any questions this thread might engender but my time and attention is spotty so no promises. Please don't flame me, or send me nasty PM's. Or any PM's really - I literally just read a PM from 6 years ago on another forum I frequent. I never think to check them. If you want to contact me in a way that doesn't involve XDA, use Twitter. I'm ardosi, obviously.
Hope this is a marginally useful suggestion and not overly long winded
---------- Post added at 01:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 AM ----------
I will add one more thing... the increment system should be over time. So, someone with a 2yr old account can't just visit a dozen forums in an evening and be able to post. It's the persistant, ongoing access to multiple forums, revisiting some of the same threads and regular downloads from the dev section that should be giving the indication that this is *probably* not someone who is clueless.
It's all risk management obviously, but with some devices having very little developer activity at all, it would be nice to lean a little bit more towards allowing additional posting.
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i totally agree. the newly registered would think twice when posting clutters. they would have to wait all over again as the result is punishment.
With the general feeling of disappointment (and even hate) around, I thought I'll take this moment out to thoroughly explain what has been done, and why it has been done.
Have a look at the list below:
Singapore Galaxy S4
Australian Galaxy S4 owners thread
Pakistani Galaxy S4 Owners Thread
Brazilian Galaxy S4 Thread
Galaxy S4 Philippines
Bangladesh Galaxy S4
Indian Galaxy S4 Owners Thread
[malaysian i9500/i9505 thread]
Ireland/UK Galaxy S4 Thread
Lebanese Galaxy S4 Thread
Sweden S4 Thread
Now ask yourself these questions:
Do you actually need these many country threads?
There are 190+ countries in the world, and with a global launch for the S4, does each and every country require it's own thread? If you answer "No", then you are biased in thinking that country A needs a thread whereas country B doesn't.
And what's to say that a single thread is sufficient per country? For example, my own state is larger in area and population than many European nations. So why shouldn't I have my own state thread? The state itself is too big, and a city based thread would be more localized. Maybe I, as a user, should create one. Or maybe a locality based one would solve all my woes.
The question here is, at what point do we draw the line? This is no easy question to answer, because try as much as we may, no one solution will please all.
Yes, we understand that when the phone launches (even during pre-launch), there is general excitement and frenzy all over. And at these times, such threads become helpful. They allow people to gather information at the time when there is no clear answer with everybody. The device is relatively new, and people are ignorant of what the best deal may be.
Fast forward to two months after launch. Do you still require region specific threads? Wouldn't it be easier if you just paid a visit to your local market or your online store to find out the current market prices, check the online review stores for the best set of accessories, contact your provider's Customer Service to find out their LTE rollout plans, etc?
XDA is not the answer to everything. Yes, a lot of people rely on researching the forum to see if there are hardware/software issues before they buy a new device. But to say that the sole purpose they joined was to find the best contract they can avail from Three, then I must say, they joined for the wrong reasons.
We aren't a consumer oriented website. We are a developer's website, but we do allow plenty of leeway to non-developers. We realize that everybody starts small, and we really appreciate the people who actually take the efforts to start. But certain things are better considered as "privileges" and not "rights".
"They shouldn't have closed down the threads. They weren't useless."
- I honestly doubt if any moderator has called any of those threads as useless. Even in my closing posts, I have acknowledged the fact that the team considers these threads as useful. It's just that, they have served their time well, and all of them have started pointing towards the more generic topics of discussion, and hence, needed to be retired from duty. [Example: In a bunch of threads, the conversation topic was the latest firmware that dropped in another country thousands of kilometres away.] Essentially, people were talking the same things, but in different groups.
"You call yourself a community. Yet you do not allow communities to exist"
- We at XDA, are a community in ourselves. When people further attempt to create communities in the open fora, they are in fact dividing the existing one. We do not need this type of segregation, when there no longer exists need of one.
How many Malaysian users frequented the Indian thread, or how many Brazilian users helped around in the Philippines thread? (Just examples used to drive the point across). People can still roam around, but do they?
"These threads helped newbie's to start with their device. The people are really helpful, and answer any questions asked."
- Yes, again, Fact Acknowledged and a virtual pat on the back for everyone who helped :good:
But isn't that the purpose with which the "[HELP THREAD] Galaxy S4 | Ask any question | Noob friendly." thread (and the Q&A section at large) was made? Imagine, if people from one community are so helpful, if everyone chimed in and helped people around, you'd actually be increasing your scope from inter-region to international.
You see a question asked, and you have the knowledge and will, you answer it, irrespective of the user being from your country or not, asking in your thread or not. If you see someone genuinely taking efforts to help someone else out, you hit the "thanks" button for them and give them a pinch of motivation
TL;DR, things don't need to be restricted to your subscribed threads. There's a largely unexplored forum out there, waiting for you.
As a matter of fact, the early bunch of pm's I received after the closures were made, were people who thought/assumed that only their own thread was closed. They failed to notice at that moment that a bunch of them were closed at the same time.
People who frequently roam around the General subfora would even acknowledge the fact that the threads had started to clog. The regional threads notice a high turnover and this results in all of them sitting at page one. This barely leaves room for other threads to be noticed.
The S4 had ~13 regional threads, and as per the forecasted trend, the Note 3 would have touched 20 regional threads by this time in its product cycle. The threads are made under the general moniker of "Availabilty and Deals", but a lot of them end up being "me-too" type threads. Country A has it, so country B should do too.
Question again, where do we draw the line?
It is also disappointing to hear the tone in some of the pm's. Much more disappointing is the fact that people call us "fascist" and compare us moderators with controversial historical figures, while all we are doing is trying to manage a forum while having a broader line of sight. Have we really wronged you so much by closing a thread, so as to be deserving of such hate?
No, we do not ban people just because they questioned a moderator's action. We simply request you to be polite and do it via pm, not as public posts. We are tolerant and will accept constructive criticism as feedback.
We haven't taken any action against misue of "official" in thread titles, while we could have very well infracted the erring OP's on misrepresentation and action without authorization. We can and we should have, but have we done so? No, we haven't. And this by itself is a testimony to the fact that we are tolerant to a really large extent.
Then you have posts like "Moderators are stupid, they don't know how to manage", which are no better than the newbie's post in a dev thread which says "My wifi broke. Fix it" without any additional details. Where is the constructive criticism in this? At the very least, work with us to solve the issues. Simply escalating problems isn't good for the community and might even worsen the situation.
Again, we are emphasizing the fact that these threads were useful. But the decision to close down a large number of these was one of the toughest ones that we have ever taken. As mentioned previously, it has been discussed to death. All possibilities, angles, point-of-views, were taken in mind before we came to a conclusion. Decisions aren't just abruptly taken.
In fact, the right decision isn't always the most popular one, as we have experienced here firsthand. We aren't looking around for threads to close in other devices as of yet. But if the need arises, and decision is to be made, then decision shall be made (on case by case basis).
In future devices, these threads aren't "banned" per se. Users are still free to create one when the device is just born/young. But do bear in mind that sometime in the future, they may get closed.
As for the Galaxy S4, this is the end of regional threads (except the ones exempted on hardware differences). Any more threads/retakes will not be allowed in the subfora. Please respect this decision.
"What do we do know?"
- As my teammates have mentioned (and as has been discussed via pm with some of you), the Social Groups feature of XDA is vastly left unutilized. You are free to create your own country, city, toy club groups. And as long as things remain within the forum rules there, they shall be allowed. Talk OT, availability, accessories, whatever you wish. Just abide by the forum rules, and report in case of problems That is all we ask :good:
If you pm me the link of the XDA social group that you have created for your country thread (provided one doesn't exist already), I'll edit the closing post and direct users towards them :good:
"Will you place links to our groups made on popular social networking sites?"
- I'm afraid we can't do that. We restrict ourselves to things concerning XDA.
We hope this clears up a lot of questions that people had in mind.
Thank you for your patience and co-operation
Moderator Team
Samsung International