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First off, this thread is a hypothetical. I need advice on the Sprint hardware replacement and insurance claim replacement processes and what they generally entail. This thread may traverse into the murky grey area between the black and white of right or wrong when it comes to insurance phone claims and defective hardware replacement. Please don't waste your time informing me of this or criticizing any possible manipulation of the hardware replacement techniques Sprint will employ should the necessary trigger be made.
I have a Sprint Mogul. I have a SERO account. I will be approaching my 2 year resign and upgrade date this summer. I pay the full $7 total equipment protection/insurance. The Sprint Mogul is now at End Of Life (EOL). Apparently, according to some reports I have seen, reps are telling customers with failed hardware replacement tickets that they can get a refurb'd Mogul (if supply allows) and if not they will get a TP. In addition, now that the mogul is EOL, an insurance claim should technically get you a TP for $50 because the Mogul supplies are dwindling and who really wants a phone that's discontinued anyway.
The question is: What is the cheapest -or- most likely to be successful method for getting a touch pro replacement? I have a ticket open on my phone (with no action taken by me to take the phone to a store for inspection) for some potential radio issues. Thus, there is some past documentation for my phone which lends credibility to some potential hardware issues having been experienced and documented. In all honesty, I have been having some issues with my phone recently but they don't rise to the level of dead ear piece or broken keys which usually equal a traditional hardware replacement. If I call Sprint and say my data speeds are not where they should be and my phone drops and lot of calls, behaves erratically, and loses a charge very quickly - what will the Sprint rep's next course of action be? Send in the phone for testing, at which point a free replacement will be sent ONLY if legit hardware defects are found? Replace with a TP regardless of legit hardware issues being found? Will they send the replacement immediately and then charge you according to results of inspection of old phone? How does this process work? Anyone with experience, please chime in. Conversely, if I would happen to lose the phone I could make a claim and pay the $50 premium. This would most likely result in a TP replacement and I probably would not settle for less.
Finally, there has been some recent litigation against lock-line for its rather shady practice of filling claims with refurb'd phones. Hopefully, the publicity and heat will end this practice.
A class-action lawsuit filed in Miami in August contends that the coverage is deceptive because consumers often receive cheap, used or refurbished phones as replacements. The suit names lock\line, Nashville-based Asurion Insurance Services and Signal Holdings in Wayne, Pa., as defendants. -- Jill Metzler, a spokeswoman for DST Systems Inc. in Kansas City, lock\line's owner, declined to comment on the litigation. DST Systems has signed a definitive agreement to merge its lock\line subsidiary into Asurion Corp.
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Has anyone had experience with this? They have already settled some class action suits based on these practices. I am hoping they have started shying away from refurbs until new bull**** documentation is drafted to get around ripping people off.
Thanks in advance for your experience and/or inside information on how this process works. Please don't reply if you have no valuable information to share and I also don't want to hear any opinions or general thoughts on the undertaking this hypothetical proposes.
okay, i used to work for service and repair for sprint and i can tell you this:
-Aside from the sprint store HAPPENING to have an extra touch pro in their seed stock (not likely) and HAPPENING to come across a sprint employee that just really really wants to do you (instead of himself or somebody in the store otehrwise) a favor and switch out your mogul for the TP......there's absolutely no way this is going to happen
let me take you back to the days of the Audiovox (aka HTC) PPC 6700. This thing had to be one of the most horrible and unreliable WM phones out there. We had floods of these phones coming in when they were new, and still had (last time i worked for sprint) floods of them coming in now that they are old. Asurion and Sprint stores alike keep massive stock of discontinued phones dating back to some of the first sanyo and UTstarcom phones sprint carried (pre-digital era we're talking about).
i've personally had customers coming into sprint (or going through asurion) no less than 15 times for the same phone with the same problem over and over and over again. They'll keep recieving a 6700 until they decide to upgrade.
A) Because you're only going to get what you've got insured. When your house blows up, they dont upgrade you to a mansion.
B) Any sprint employee that somehow gets a current model smartphone as an EXTRA in it's seedstock will definitely take or give it to somebody they know as an upgraded replacement....
C) Asurion (especially with problem-prone HTC devices) carries huge stocks of these phones and will have them to you in no less than a week.
Now.....when the TP becomes old news and the regular store stock is converted into Service & Repair seed stock...then you've got yourself a fighting chance....but until then:
your only option of upgrading is upgrading. Whether you con the retentions department into giving you an early upgrade by threatening them of going to another carrier, or are a good enough customer that they give you an extremely discounted Touch Pro.....there's only one way out
Moral of the story: Befriend your local sprint service and repair rep.
oh, and that bit about refurbished phones.
NOT going to go anywhere, and if it does......say goodbye to affordable phone insurance. People are too stupid to realize that they are getting a ****ing steal for 7 dollars a month, especially considering that the average customer with TEP (in my experiences) were in multiple times a year, if not a handful.
sprint, especiaily, gives stellar service and repair without having to deal with asurion and most of the time you will have no deductable BECAUSE they are reusing parts.
want a new phone ? great, then see that best buy insurance for the iphone that costs upwards of 15 dollars a month with a huge deductable? that's what insurance will look like for you.
I agree with Whitesox311. If they didn't have Mogul's in stock and couldn't get any, then you might be upgraded, but a TP is still doubtful. They try to upgrade you to a "similar" phone, in other words, whatever the cheapest pda is that they have that is close in specs. You might get a Sprint Touch, possibly a Diamond, but the TP is the most expensive pda they have and their flagship phone, so it is highly unlikely you'll get one.
They will probably have new and refurb Mogul's in stock for a while still, even if it is EOL for retail.
People with the Apache were trying to do this when the Mogul came out and most of them didn't have any luck because they had plenty of Apaches left to give out.
So as long as you have a legit claim, then go through the proper channels, but don't try to abuse the TEP by using it as an upgrade program.
whitesox311 said:
okay, i used to work for service and repair for sprint and i can tell you this:
-Aside from the sprint store HAPPENING to have an extra touch pro in their seed stock (not likely) and HAPPENING to come across a sprint employee that just really really wants to do you (instead of himself or somebody in the store otehrwise) a favor and switch out your mogul for the TP......there's absolutely no way this is going to happen
let me take you back to the days of the Audiovox (aka HTC) PPC 6700. This thing had to be one of the most horrible and unreliable WM phones out there. We had floods of these phones coming in when they were new, and still had (last time i worked for sprint) floods of them coming in now that they are old. Asurion and Sprint stores alike keep massive stock of discontinued phones dating back to some of the first sanyo and UTstarcom phones sprint carried (pre-digital era we're talking about).
i've personally had customers coming into sprint (or going through asurion) no less than 15 times for the same phone with the same problem over and over and over again. They'll keep recieving a 6700 until they decide to upgrade.
A) Because you're only going to get what you've got insured. When your house blows up, they dont upgrade you to a mansion.
B) Any sprint employee that somehow gets a current model smartphone as an EXTRA in it's seedstock will definitely take or give it to somebody they know as an upgraded replacement....
C) Asurion (especially with problem-prone HTC devices) carries huge stocks of these phones and will have them to you in no less than a week.
Now.....when the TP becomes old news and the regular store stock is converted into Service & Repair seed stock...then you've got yourself a fighting chance....but until then:
your only option of upgrading is upgrading. Whether you con the retentions department into giving you an early upgrade by threatening them of going to another carrier, or are a good enough customer that they give you an extremely discounted Touch Pro.....there's only one way out
Moral of the story: Befriend your local sprint service and repair rep.
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I agree with what you say and it sounds realistic. However, one thing has changed since when the TP came out. The Mogul is now EOL. I think the odds are better now than they were in Oct. or Nov. Just today @ PPCgeeks a member posted that he put in a replacement and they sent him a TP free of charge. Even the refurb'd supplies that Asurion and stores have should be drying up eventually. The life cycle of the mogul was shorter than the apache. I dont expect as many units in the retail channel. I have seen other recent reports (only a few) of customers getting TP's because mogul inventory was depleted. It may be wishful thinking on my part but I think that Mogul being EOL definitely helps.
whitesox311 said:
oh, and that bit about refurbished phones.
NOT going to go anywhere, and if it does......say goodbye to affordable phone insurance.
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No offense, but this statement shows how little you know or have researched. They have SETTLED numerous class action suits for this very practice. Asurion has already paid for fraudulent and unfair claims practices. There are signs that they are shying away from issuing refurbs in certain instances due to the publicity and lawsuits. It is legitimized in their ToS and EULA but the consumer is fighting back (and winning). So again, what you say sounds realistic but being a former employee of a Sprint store (or whatever) doesnt make you an expert on anything. The factor you keep under valuing is that Mogul supplies (especially at random repair stores) will be drying up now. They have little other option but a TP if they cant source a refurb'd Mogul. Asurion probably has a larger back stock of mogul refurb's though.
Or.....
you can get the best buy htc touch pro for $199, and sell your mogul on ebay for $100-150 and you have done it legit.
It may cost you 50-100 this way but it works.
i guess we got it made on at&t..free warranty and free device upgrade after 3 or 4 warranty exchanges..who needs insurance? just dont break your phone physically (and why would you..because we all baby them) and youll never have to pay for a device again..
whitesox311 said:
oh, and that bit about refurbished phones.
NOT going to go anywhere, and if it does......say goodbye to affordable phone insurance. People are too stupid to realize that they are getting a ****ing steal for 7 dollars a month, especially considering that the average customer with TEP (in my experiences) were in multiple times a year, if not a handful.
sprint, especiaily, gives stellar service and repair without having to deal with asurion and most of the time you will have no deductable BECAUSE they are reusing parts.
want a new phone ? great, then see that best buy insurance for the iphone that costs upwards of 15 dollars a month with a huge deductable? that's what insurance will look like for you.
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Umm...Best Buy's insurance on the TP would be 9.99 a month with no deductible. I don't know why the iPhone insurance would be relevant? There are no deductibles for Best Buy insurance, and they do give you a brand new phone.
Worked for me at Puerto Rico... ...Just 50 bucks, no contract extension...
you can do what i did and 2 other people did we had our moguls replace over at ppcgeeks they have a thread about filling out a form and getting a tp here is the website http://forum.ppcgeeks.com/showthread.php?t=53327
I got upgraded to a TP
Well on Sunday, I dropped and cracked my Mogul screen, did a claim on the assurian website, and got a Brand New Touch Pro on Tuesday in the mail. $50 and it did nothing to my contract, no extension. I will be getting the new Palm when it comes out.
Is it me or are the standard tablet prices way too high?
Just checked the pricing for Sony Tablet S (Wi-Fi only) £399/$499 (16GB) and £499/$599 (32GB) with the 3G version roughly 100 more.
Not blaming Sony for this as all companies seem to be inflated.
If all companies were to take a look at the recent HP Touchpad saga, can they not see the potential if the prices were lower? (Maybe not to that extent, but you catch my drift hopefully).
As consumers, if we were to all agree worldwide that we were not going to pay these prices for something we believe should be at least a couple of £/$100 cheaper. Wouldn't companies have to eventually reduce prices due the poor sales?
P.s. TO MODS - If this belongs in Q & A apologies.
I think that the tablet market is still preadolescence. I believe that this will be the case for at least one or two more years then we can expect the tablet market to become more competitive on high quality tablets.
Hell yeah. But these companies have to make a profit or at least break even on the hardware.
I got a Streak 7 for $150. Loved it. I'm looking to find a Xoom or Transformer now.
Its all about searching for deals I guess.
@MeInGatineau - The Touchpad industry being young in it's life cycle is true, but as it stands there is enough competition to drive prices down. Companies will only do this if we refuse to buy at the inflated prices.
@vetvito - The companies do not "need to" make profit/break even on hardware so early, they "want to". The combination of software sales, economies of scale and cheaper components etc. in the long run should make them more than enough profit.
Have a Nook cost 200 bucks
A Asus EE tablet 380.00
A Samsung 10.1 paid 480.00
and a 32 gig Touchpad Paid 230.00 for it.
Cost is driven more by hype and perception than by academic business models.
All the above are 100-300.00 more in the stores if you buy "off the shelf"retail.
Always NEVER do that unless you are rich.
Typically the way electronics work is : They R/D a design and get it to manufacture , once there, they figure the baseline amount needed to be sold @ a given price in order to break even (recoup all costs for the project) Then , after they pass that mark costs begin to decline.... unless it is a hot seller then they exploit the hype of the market for the extra profit benefit it brings for as long as it lasts.
Apple is better at keeping the hype up than most other people in the market today, which explains why they have a following, you get less and pay more for it, and think it is a deal. NOW! that's great marketing !!!
If you really want to know more on this and markets and how they work just look at the Intel chip market.
Yes tablets are expensive at the moment but I don't think this immediately points to greedy manufacturers with big profit margins. Developing the tablets are quite costly and they are probably just covering their costs. Once they gain experience and pick up, I'm sure scales of economy kick and and products will become cheaper. Exactly how the laptop market has gone.
Competition will always drive prices down but no manufacturer is going to sell the tablet at a loss unless they are able to re-coop that money from elsewhere. E.g. Amazon sell the Kindle at a loss as they make money on the ebooks. Carriers sell mobile phones at a loss as they make money on the tariffs and carrier services used.
HP were selling the TouchPad for a loss. They could do this because the alternative was probably a greater loss.
Just Me said:
@vetvito - The companies do not "need to" make profit/break even on hardware so early, they "want to". The combination of software sales, economies of scale and cheaper components etc. in the long run should make them more than enough profit.
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I don't see how software sales would make profit for a tablet manufacturer? Most tablet manufacturers opportunities for profit are with the tablet sales and official accessories for that tablet.
I would argue that manufacturers do need to make profit/break even as quickly as possible. Manufacturers cannot afford to have long drawn out periods for products to break even. They do not know how they will sell, what competition will do or any of the other million factors that affect economy.
This isn't to say pricing them high will get them to break even as quickly as possible. Because if they are too high then they will not get enough sales.
@oka1 - That is my partly my point. There are deals to be had if you shop around, but why are the prices not discounted in the first place. The person/company that you bought from, would have bought from 1-2 people before you and it is likely that they all made money from each item.
I also have a Touchpad but the 16GB version, which I paid £127. Above the insane price of £89, but now that I have it, I realise I might have paid £200, but the £350+ price tag was ridiculous imo.
Also, I get your R&D point to an extent, but then why bring out a newer model with only slightly better features in 6 to 12 months and price it at the same price, as the original. Surely the the R&D cost wouldn't have increased significantly for the new product
@Techno79 - I'm not in the industry, but I can't really see the development cost being high enough to justify such a high selling price. I know it's not as straight forward as this but, tablets are generally just big smart phones, some with less features (e.g. Wi-Fi only).
In comparison the laptops that you mention are probably more costly to build, but are cheaper and have a lot more functions.
My point is, I don't believe they have to sell them for as much as they do and if, as a society, simplified, we all turned around and said drop the price by a couple of 100 and we'll all buy one, they would.
My software sales point was more at certain companies that get a % of sales revenue for apps sold, but true it's probably not the case for all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that companies don't need to survive, I'm just saying, they should give a little back to the consumer that buy their products and help them make the vast amounts of profit they do.
In reality, as long as people are giving up their money as easy as they do, companies will sell at a premium.
hi
hi. this is just a test message
Yeah, it's too bad that companies want to make a profit.
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hp tablets
i just heard they were getting rid of these for like $99 bucks for 16gb
not a bad deal, can anyone confirm?
dutchman22 said:
i just heard they were getting rid of these for like $99 bucks for 16gb
not a bad deal, can anyone confirm?
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They sold millions in 2 days for that price and now they are sold out. I got mine off some guy who bought one and marked up 75 bucks
Just Me said:
@oka1
@Techno79 - I'm not in the industry, but I can't really see the development cost being high enough to justify such a high selling price. I know it's not as straight forward as this but, tablets are generally just big smart phones, some with less features (e.g. Wi-Fi only).
In comparison the laptops that you mention are probably more costly to build, but are cheaper and have a lot more functions.
My point is, I don't believe they have to sell them for as much as they do and if, as a society, simplified, we all turned around and said drop the price by a couple of 100 and we'll all buy one, they would.
My software sales point was more at certain companies that get a % of sales revenue for apps sold, but true it's probably not the case for all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that companies don't need to survive, I'm just saying, they should give a little back to the consumer that buy their products and help them make the vast amounts of profit they do.
In reality, as long as people are giving up their money as easy as they do, companies will sell at a premium.
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If you breakdown the different parts of a tablet's cost then you'll have something like this:
Hardware costs
Retail mark up
Taxes
Manufacturing/production costs
Manufacturer's Profit
Manufacturer's profit first has to cover the huge costs of R&D, marketing and service/maintenance. These combined costs run up in the millions and will take a lot of sales before they break even. I would guess that they'd need to sell 100s of thousands before they get to break even point. So, until they reach those sales figures, I do believe they are justified in selling a high selling price. Obviously, I'm not saying I like high costs but I do think the current Android tablet price points are somewhat justified.
Tablets may be larger versions of mobile phones, but like I said before, mobile phones can be sold at a loss as they offset the loss against consumers signing up to 12/18/24 month carrier plans and using additional cost services with that carrier. Take a look at SIM free mobile phone costs if you really want to compare like for like. Top end mobile phones can cost nearly £500.
Also, some of R&D can be reused from previous generation of devices. Manufacturers are probably on their 100th generation of laptops where as Android tablets are at the most on their 3rd or 4th generation and thus still very new. I think for this reason, laptops are probably cheaper to produce.
Competition also drives prices down a lot and there is obviously more competition with laptops than there is with tablets. When laptops were fairly new, they would cost well over £1000 for a decent model which is far more than the tablets at the moment. It's only in the last few years that laptops have been fairly cheap. I'm sure tablets will get to that point a lot quicker but I doubt we'll see that before end of 2011.
Also, not all tablets will be a super seller. Some tablets will flop and never cover their R&D and marketing costs. It's down to profits from other tablets that cover these costs.
I'm all for lower tablet costs but from manufacturers perspective, I don't see anything wrong with the current price points of Android tablets given how new Android tablets are and the level of competition in the market. It's guaranteed that costs will eventually come down.
Very valid points. I fully understand that everything you said is pretty much true, but there are many counter arguments to your points, so I'll agree to disagree overall.
But going back to what should have probably been the first line in the thread and not the last (I can see why the thread went the way it did, instead of the way I wanted):
"As consumers, if we were to all agree worldwide that we were not going to pay these prices for something we believe should be at least a couple of £/$100 cheaper. Wouldn't companies have to eventually reduce prices due the poor sales?"
Would this work? Or would the tablet market slowly die out?
Just Me said:
Very valid points. I fully understand that everything you said is pretty much true, but there are many counter arguments to your points, so I'll agree to disagree overall.
But going back to what should have probably been the first line in the thread and not the last (I can see why the thread went the way it did, instead of the way I wanted):
"As consumers, if we were to all agree worldwide that we were not going to pay these prices for something we believe should be at least a couple of £/$100 cheaper. Wouldn't companies have to eventually reduce prices due the poor sales?"
Would this work? Or would the tablet market slowly die out?
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I personally don't think this would work. There are many consumers who are extremely well off and are happy to pay the high price for early adoption. How would someone be able to co-ordinate such a consumer boycott. I think the current natural system works. If a manufacturer releases a product at too higher price, then less consumers will purchase it. As time goes on, and the product gets cheaper, more consumers are likely to jump on board to buy. However, if the product remains too high a price for the duration of the products life, then this will be seen with low total sales and low profit margins for the manufacturer (possibly even a loss). The manufacturer "should" learn their lesson and make the next product at a better price point.
If manufacturers can make more profit from selling 100k products at a high price than selling 1M products at a low price then they need some other incentive to sell at low price point.
Hypothetically speaking, if we could agree between all consumers to not buy the tablets at their high price to force manufacturers to release them at a low price then the profit margins could be so low that manufacturers give up on tablets as they realise they can get more profit from netbook/laptop and other consumer devices. So yes, I do think a global boycott for the high initial early adoption cost could kill the tablet market.
Practically, in here, yes they are. But comparatively with other devices/gadgets, the current tablet market is decently-priced.
Just like everything else the prices will drop after all the early adopters jump. There will be more choices and lower price points.
What is the difference between iPod Touch and iPhone? A $5 GSM/CDMA chip? Why $400 price difference?
Large screen Android tablets can be had for $200. Why unlocked phones are $600-800?
Sorry if it's been discussed, my search didn't find a good topic on the subject.
Wow, no answers! Noone else is interested in this question?
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Which?
They're expensive because of convenience, demand. people want it they gotta pay....
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They are so expensive, because people buy them anyways.
Manufactors and carriers are all after our money, why should they lower the price.
Besides that some devices also have to pay back the research that went into developing them.
Don't have any idea why unlocked phones are costlier but it you compare tablet and phone, size does matter. Smaller, faster and costier.
go overseas and see the prices some can have more then a hundred dollars difference even if they are the same devices
The price triples at the 3rd world countries. I wonder why.
Yeah, you're lucky for not live in a country like Brazil, there a smartphone like S2 or Iphone4 costs around 1000,00 US$ bucks...
well maybe unlucking phone is expensive because its not really designated in any other area than the original area, but the publisher wants to publicly sale it to other region. that can be the cause too
Development is expensive.
You buy a brand, this is why most of the time you pay double.. buy another phone with the same specs but with a non popular brand and you will pay less...
Not to mention that you are talking about Apple...
All your reasoning would apply for everything else electronic- TVs, MP3 or Blue Ray players, etc. Yet they all keep coming down in prices. But not the phones.
Yea, good question I was wondering the same.
It really is a gigantic gap between say an Iphone and Ipod touch in terms of price, yet the hardware has very little difference.
Seems like a marketing thing, as most users will want all the goodies packed together in a small package + a phone in one device.
It's a conspiracy i tell yea
You should see it like this. When you buy a phone, you pay for the development, the construction, the shipping, the people who check it, the people who made the software. add that up with an expensive casing (like HTC has.) and the euro's (or dollars) fly onto the price tag. With Apple, I don't know, they just rip your wallet.
Smartphones are still upcomming, with new technology added every time a new device is being developed.
Why is SSD more expensive than a normal HDD, because it's a new technology. DVD drives used to be really expensive aswell, look at them now they aren't so expensive anymore.
Anything that's new has a price, and it's your choice if you want to pay for it or not.
I hope this helps.
It's not that unbranded phones are more expensive, the price just isn't subsidised by the network operators.
Network operators sell you the handset at a loss, but tie you into a contract to recoup their initial cost. Customer inertia means there's a good chance you'll stay with them.
well they give you much more ie. i have an ace and i can do everything what i usually do on my pc... except gaming ofc.
Unlocked phones are not only expensive because of the demand. When you buy one on contract, you are going to end up paying over $1000 over the 2 year contract anyways. That's why they discount smartphones so much on contract, they know they will get paid back from the contract.
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I'm guessing prices don't come down on phones because carriers subsidize prices. Manufacturers know that and therefore prices will stay rather high. Having said that, development on new phone technology is going at a fast rate right now so manufacturers also are recouping those costs.
Althestrasz said:
You should see it like this. When you buy a phone, you pay for the development, the construction, the shipping, the people who check it, the people who made the software. add that up with an expensive casing (like HTC has.) and the euro's (or dollars) fly onto the price tag. With Apple, I don't know, they just rip your wallet.
Smartphones are still upcomming, with new technology added every time a new device is being developed.
Why is SSD more expensive than a normal HDD, because it's a new technology. DVD drives used to be really expensive aswell, look at them now they aren't so expensive anymore.
Anything that's new has a price, and it's your choice if you want to pay for it or not.
I hope this helps.
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Everything else also has to be developed, designed, engineered, assembled, shipped and retailed. In fact, iPod was developed before iPhone and they mostly made of the same parts.
Also, if you look at pricing for prepaid phones, I don't think that carriers subsidize that much. Mostly they hike their prices to force us in their contracts.
A week or so ago I saw a link on one of the "deal tracking" sites, an HTC tablet was offered for the same price with no contract or service as the "discounted" price from Sprint.
theyre expensives due to all research and work of the engineers...and of course to obtain more money from all of us...you want the finest and latest technology from theirs...you have to pay whatever their wants...
I've started a Whitehouse.gov petition to fix the cell phone subsidy problems. The cost of early termination fees are out of control compared to the wholesale and retail cost of phones and I'd like to see the phone subsidy (or financing) billed separately from the service cost. This would make it extremely clear to all (even those who don't currently understand subsidies) how much the phones are truly costing them and hopefully improve pricing on the big carriers.
We need 150 signatures to get this to a public state where anyone can view it on the site. I'm requesting help from everyone to get these signatures to 150 and beyond. Please post on your Facebook and Google+ to get your friends and family to help out too.
Go here to view the Whitehouse.gov petition: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/require-fair-and-clear-pricing-wireless-services-and-wireless-devices/wf5hYdxd?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
The petition is as follows:
The federally permitted duopoly of AT&T and Verizon Wireless has severely hurt competition and driven up prices in the wireless services industry. This has occurred while wireless service prices elsewhere have plummeted due to technological improvements reducing the cost to deliver service. A 3 point approach is required to protect consumers:
1. Require separation of the true cost to the consumer for the phone hardware and wireless service so that they are billed separately.
2. Prohibit early termination fees that exceed the remaining balance of the fair market value of the subsidized or financed wireless hardware.
3. Require all carriers to offer wireless service without any financial penatly or increased cost of service for using a customer owned device.
Now before anyone tells me to own my cell phone service, please note that I already have with a Nexus 4 (previously G'nex) and Straight Talk, SIMple Mobile, and Solavei. I'm pushing this petition for everyone who doesn't yet "own" their service and to improve the future market overall.
While I agree with you about how you feel about contract services, I'm not sure how I feel about needing this to be legally policed.
The thing with the phones being subsidized is that I don't see this as being a perfectly cookie-cutter direct relation to the monthly contract price. Why is it wrong for a business to offer an incentive for a customer to sign a contract ? People need to do research and have willpower - why should people have to be legally protected from making bad choices ? Casinos, liquor, and cigarettes are legal, after all.
The problem I see with point 2 is that it's not just about the hardware - it's about trying to leave a contract that you agreed to before the end of the term. Would you rather they take people to court over it ? It's like signing any contract and people should take it seriously instead of expecting to just get out of it if they want to - if you stop making car or rent payments the contract-holder isn't going to just say, "o, that's okay, I'll let you off free this time because you seem so nice". If you sign a non-disclosure or non-compete agreement, they aren't going to say, "o, you sound so nice over the phone and you're having a bad time, just go right on ahead and break the contract we won't pursue it".
The real "solution" here isn't legal action, it's public awareness. Awareness that a contract is a serious agreement - and that they have options and need to think about if a contract is best for them or not.
The solution is educating people on their other options - if people talk with their money, the companies will hear it (and at this point, they're already starting to listen).
You're preaching to the choir. A two year contract is a real commitment and shouldn't be taken lightly.
However, think about it in a little bit different light. The carriers are a legalized duopoly. This has significant benefits to us - remember when we only had regional carriers and we had to pay exorbitant per minute roaming rates? Now virtually every carrier includes roaming free, because they each have such a far reach with their existing network. We also have near seamless coverage wherever we're driving.
Despite these benefits of having only a couple major carriers, keep in mind that the carriers use public assets to provide service. Their spectrum is leased, not owned, and the spectrum is public property. Furthermore, they are in a unique position to take advantage of us, and they do. Think of the utilities that we use for our homes. You usually only have one choice for electricity and one choice for natural gas service to your home. Because if that, the utilities are regulated to protect the consumer. But, it really only makes sense to have one of each of these utilities in any area due to the high cost of the infrastructure.
I see cell carriers in the same way. Allow them to provide the benefits that they provide with their massive, high quality networks, but protect the consumer from abuse.
Let's take a look at typical discrepancies on a high end android phone subsidy.
Retail cost of phone: $500-600
Likely wholesale cost of phone to the carrier: $300-400
Cost to the consumer on contract: $200-300
Maximum amount of money to be recouped by the carrier due to subsidy: $200
Now lets look at the cost of the subsidy of two years:
Monthly contract cost: $90
Two year contract cost: $2160
Monthly prepaid plan (being conservative, they're typically lower): $55
Two year prepaid plan: $1320
You can't possibly look me in the eye and tell me that a $350 ETF is right or ethical. The carriers are recouping over over $800 to cover the cost of the phone in this scenario, and I'm erring on the low side. Remember when the ETF used to be $125-175? The carriers tell us that advanced devices cost more than feature phones did, but that's a pure lie. In the day of lower ETFs, feature phones had the same high retail pricing that smart phones do today.
You may or may not be surprised to know how many people I talk to about cell phones who don't understand phone subsidies. It's unfortunate, but not everyone understands it.
I'm on a personal mission the take as many people as possibly away from the major carriers and I've been very successful. Many people don't realize the prepaid options they have. But, we unfortunately need regulatory intervention to truly fix the problem.
I hate the fact that I don't have options right now because I'm locked into a contract until December. When I truly looked at how much I'd save over the two years, it made me sick.
If everyone just did a little bit of simple math they would leave Verizon and ATT. I am leaving to go to straight talk when my contract is up.
I think most people want what they want though. And that is the latest and fastest tech out there that's available to them and when they're offered it 5 to 6 months before they're contract is up at a "discount", then they jump at it. But we all know that in two years, your new tech will be way out dated and you will have paid twice what it's worth. It's rent-a-center for smartphones. It just doesn't make financial sense.
That's just my two cents.
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---------- Post added at 06:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------
But I will have to disagree with you that we need regulatory measures. You would be taking away one's freedom to make choices. No one is forced to sign the contract just as no one is forced to buy a home or car that they can't afford to keep up. People need to be educated on how to live within their means by keeping a budget and sticking to it and learning to say no to themselves sometimes. Just because something is available to us or that we can afford the monthly payments, doesn't always mean we should buy it.
People no longer ask whether or not they should or shouldn't do this or buy that. They do everything they can to acquire the latest tech, gadget or possession thinking it will satisfy their unending desires. The problem is, they don't satisfy us.
Why do you think people are obsessed with rooting and constantly flashing roms? Because we get bored with our current os or how our phone looks and feels, so we think by flashing a different rom or mod, it will keep us happy and satisfied.
The only reason I'm saying this is because I'm just as guilty, but am learning how to be content with what I have. The moment I start becoming discontented with what I have, is when I buy into the lie that I just need to upgrade my phone and sign another contract to make me happy.
But to say that I need the government to tell me that I can't takes away freedoms and personal responsibility. Sometimes we need to make mistakes to realize that the decisions we made weren't so beneficial after all.
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If you read the petition, it's actually a pretty reasonable request. As a business owner myself, I am generally anti regulation.
My proposed regulations merely require separate billing of the subsidy and service and prohibits the carrier from recouping more than the value of the subsidized equipment in the event that you decide to end your contract early. It is my hope that showing people exactly how much the contract costs them might encourage people to make the right choice. I don't want the government telling people what they have to do, but I do want them to ensure that people are not lied to.
But I fully agree with you that people have lost the common sense to live within their means. I think it's particularly clear as a result of our economic crash related to the housing industry.
On the note of your contract through December, do the math. You may break even quicker than you think. I left Verizon in August, 11 months into my contract. I had a 6 month break even period, so it was a win in the end. I keep telling everyone that I know about the ROI of switching, and I've had pretty good success with friends and coworkers.
If my wife and I were to end our contracts right now, we'd save $90/month switching to straight talk. A couple of problems. The up front cost of early termination fees and buying GSM phones when both of ours are cdma only usable on Verizon. Pretty sure we'd more than break even over the course of the next 10 to 11 months. We don't have enough saved to pay up front. My wife loves her iPhone 4 and she could probably find someone on Craigslist who would trade a GSM for her cdma. I have a dx2 and could probably get 50-75 for mine. To buy a comparable GSM phone would cost me atleast 200. This all is off the top of my head. Any pointers or tips on the cheapest and best way to do this?
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Juice3250 said:
If my wife and I were to end our contracts right now, we'd save $90/month switching to straight talk. A couple of problems. The up front cost of early termination fees and buying GSM phones when both of ours are cdma only usable on Verizon. Pretty sure we'd more than break even over the course of the next 10 to 11 months. We don't have enough saved to pay up front. My wife loves her iPhone 4 and she could probably find someone on Craigslist who would trade a GSM for her cdma. I have a dx2 and could probably get 50-75 for mine. To buy a comparable GSM phone would cost me atleast 200. This all is off the top of my head. Any pointers or tips on the cheapest and best way to do this?
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The aspect of having the financial resources to buy out your contract is a very common issue. Sometimes waiting out the contract is the best thing to do and obviously only you can ultimately make the right decision for your finanaces. If you make enough money, consider setting aside an extra amount of money every paycheck to get to the point where you can buy out your contracts. Maybe you can stop going out to eat for a month? Maybe you can skip the big trip with the kids over spring break? There's often a place to cut your budget if you feel it's the right priority.
I know that the Verizon iPhone 4 devices have GSM built in and it might even be unlocked already. However, unless jailbroken, I don't believe you can access the APN settings to use a different carrier. I'm not an iPhone expert, I'm all Android. I do think it's possible, and Verizon will likely give you a SIM unlock code if you need it and ask for it, just ask for the unlock code before you terminate your service.
I purchased a GSM Galaxy Nexus, unlocked when I switched. Then I bought a Nexus 4. Those are your best bets for going contract free, however there are other options. But the Nexus phones have the right bands to work with T-Mobile or AT&T, allowing you to hop MVNOs to chase the best price.
Start by reading this thread to get an understanding of prepaid smartphone service: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1455014
If you can't afford a Nexus phone, read this article for some ideas: http://androidandme.com/2012/12/reviews/best-unlocked-android-phone-for-any-budget-december-2012/
A great domestic source for a plethora of unlock phones: http://www.gsmnation.com/
Also, Amazon.com is a great source for unlocked phones.
Remember, you're paying less for service because you're not getting a phone subsidy. Expect to pay an exorbitant amount for your phone, but you will be rewarded by crazy cheap service!
Guys, i bought a LeTV x600. Excited about this phone and the new (yet big) company in the phone world, i went to watch their presentation. It looks they are selling this phone, other models too, at cost price! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHNbrYGWQM&feature=youtu.be&t=6395
Their idea is to sell at cost price and make profit from their streamming service (they are the chinese netflix) used from the phones of course. Chinese companies are already releasing flagship phones for half the price. Some are really great. But this could be a paradigm shift in the way of doing business. I mean most companies have to get profit from phones, they don't have "other" services in order to make up for selling the phones at cost price. Operators already do something similar to this, the phone is for free, but they obligate you to use their network for 1 or 2 years. We can buy this phone with no obligation to use their streamming service.
I'm no business expert, Apple and Samsung will always be Apple and Samsung, but i think this could really hurt the small/medium players. This is not a "cheap" badly made phone just for the purpose of watching stuff. Just watch the reviews about it.
Think HP selling printers at low price, hopping to get the real (and absurdly high) profit from ink.
What do you think about this?
On a sidenote, the LeTV ROM have some nasty/lame bugs and they are being a bit slow to fix them. IMHO, nowadays most phones are released inmmaturely. Sure, smartphones are more complex than older phones, but still companies could spend a bit more time doing QA on them. They understimate the work and time to have a really mature software. But time runs fast nowadays. Having great specs on a phone is not enough. I think on this case, if LeTV doesn't change their attitude, they can say bye bye to their great idea. Because customers are impatient and don't forgive much.