Related
This topic has been floating around the forums for a long time now. For as long as chefs been cooking, they’ve been trying to cook their “perfect rom.” Well…unfortunately they can’t do it by themselves. They need some help from us…so this thread is for any and all feedback we may all have as users, to offer to our chefs in order to achieve our goal.
Keep in mind guys, we’re all different people, we all require different things. Let’s keep our thoughts realistic and respectful. We’re use to 3 types of roms….Full, Medium and Light (lite.) Let’s see if we can offer up a somewhat standard model and set of applications for each type of rom.
But not just apps….lets break this down to CE builds..OS tweaks…radio performance…visual preferences…..EVERYTHING!!!!
also (i know this is gonna cause an outbreak!....) if there are any outstanding issues you've been having with all coked roms across the board...feel free to mention....The more we're all aware of something the better the chance it will be addressed!
======================================================================================
((Results and conclusions))
-For the most part, we can all agree certain apps should not be cooked in because they're updated too often.
======================================================================================
((Topics and issues))
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*well i can't edit the poll...so we'll have to do this the hard way. So we have the "to be cooked or not" apps figured out. Next is the model in which the roms are produced. Like i said before...theres usually 3. Lite, Medium and full. We need to define the roll and specs of each and what they contain. Sound Off
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the request of mr.dutty i've added a poll. Im not sure if i can do this, but i'll try to switch it up everyday with a new subject everyday or so.
* = current topic
almost was going to warn you to get some flame retardant clothing at first glance. However after reading a bit more it does not seem to be a bad idea, assuming it can be kept free from garbage. Ill put some thought and contribute what i can but not a bad idea.
A few things I look for in a cooked ROM -
Hardware keyboard performance: We're talking about a device that features a very nice full hardware keyboard, and roms should take this into account. I've encountered roms that have laggy keyboard entry, other weird keyboard entry problems, and some which work beautifully.
Careful which apps are cooked in: If an app is likely to get updated frequently, it's my opinion that it shouldn't get cooked into a rom (unless, of course, it's a PITA to install in the first place). There'd be no point cooking PointUI's Home into a ROM, as it gets updated a lot. Also, the legality of any cooked in App should be considered. For example, I'd love to see a rom that's got Opera Mini cooked in and ready to go as the default browser, which is a lot of fiddling around and hard work, rather than a rom that uses the NOT FREE Opera Mobile.
Screen Rotation Speed: Some ROMs have managed to achieve near instant screen rotation speeds, others have not. It'd be great to know what settings affect this, and cook them in.
Options: I hate Large Start Menu. I love the fact that you can easily turn it off without any side-effects. I love the fact that Quick Menu gets cooked in, but you have the option to not use it (I'm firmly in the "loving quick menu" camp though, at the moment).
Most important: Speed. I really don't feel like this device is performing quite as well as it could do. I think we could get there - I think there's still some exploring to do, and at some point there'll be a major breakthrough.
Maybe this thread is the start of all of that?
Thank you For starting this as this will alow us to find out from different individuals thier own opinions and also from different chefs as to how we can maximise the best performance out of this baby kaiser.
At the moment Im trying different stuffs
I don't know to much about this stuff, but in my last month of looking at these forums.. I think a lot of people use these
- Pocket Core Media Player
- SOme form of Registry Edit
- Task Manager (Detialed one, WTask i think it's called?)
- Pocket Screen
- Office (obviously)
- Note pad (love it)
- Touch Settings
- Query Analyzer (maybe not for everyone..)
- Slide 2 unlock (better to get that yourself probably now that I think about it)
- Schapps advanced config 1.1
- KaiserTweak
- Total Commander looks pretty usefull
- Some sort of FTP program
- I wish there was some app for linking HTC favorites in the cube to their contact record (give you option of calling,e mailing, etc, instead of a quick call)
Not very advanced stuff, but stuff I hav efound pretty usefull that i never knew about.
swtaltima said:
almost was going to warn you to get some flame retardant clothing at first glance. However after reading a bit more it does not seem to be a bad idea, assuming it can be kept free from garbage. Ill put some thought and contribute what i can but not a bad idea.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol no worries man. i got my suit bag unzipped and waiting!
i guess i'll give it a go....
me myself...I prefer a Full rom. but it seems very unrealistic as to what’s in a full rom or not. I’ve been talking to dutty a bit about this and he wanted me to get some ideas and get back to him….so I guess this is the place to get it all together. For those of us with a tilt…we all know how fat the shipped att rom was. But the funny thing is…it wasn’t slow at all! This is what sparked my thoughts. How about…a full rom = a bloated rom! But not bad bloated….good bloated. I’m talking about any and all those little apps we all know and love. Such as….group sms…call firewall…opermini (files provided to set as main browser…I think that should be left up to the user,) tom tom...quick menu….Live search and all other live apps, all HTC current apps and dialers….ect ect. I wanted to include slide to unlock, point ui and pocket cm…but these apps are updated too often to cook in….but non the less would be great for a full rom. I believe the cooks can find a way to make a rom like this work!
For a media rom….pretty much the rom…plus all the htc goodies we’re all used to. And the the rest of the inessentials….things like flash lite…youtube already cooked in....ect ect. It should be kept clean and nice.
A lite rom?....nothing! lol…lite roms are for those of us who like to tinker ourselves or just don’t use a damn thing on the phone…so I think it should be just the os! And call it a day.
I think we need to add a poll of some sort to vote on what apps should be included in each rom so we can observe, study and compare what individuals use in thier roms and what they dont like.
dan13l said:
A few things I look for in a cooked ROM -
Hardware keyboard performance: We're talking about a device that features a very nice full hardware keyboard, and roms should take this into account. I've encountered roms that have laggy keyboard entry, other weird keyboard entry problems, and some which work beautifully.
Careful which apps are cooked in: If an app is likely to get updated frequently, it's my opinion that it shouldn't get cooked into a rom (unless, of course, it's a PITA to install in the first place). There'd be no point cooking PointUI's Home into a ROM, as it gets updated a lot. Also, the legality of any cooked in App should be considered. For example, I'd love to see a rom that's got Opera Mini cooked in and ready to go as the default browser, which is a lot of fiddling around and hard work, rather than a rom that uses the NOT FREE Opera Mobile.
Screen Rotation Speed: Some ROMs have managed to achieve near instant screen rotation speeds, others have not. It'd be great to know what settings affect this, and cook them in.
Options: I hate Large Start Menu. I love the fact that you can easily turn it off without any side-effects. I love the fact that Quick Menu gets cooked in, but you have the option to not use it (I'm firmly in the "loving quick menu" camp though, at the moment).
Most important: Speed. I really don't feel like this device is performing quite as well as it could do. I think we could get there - I think there's still some exploring to do, and at some point there'll be a major breakthrough.
Maybe this thread is the start of all of that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
point ui makes for a good debate....the reason i would cook it in is because it comes with its own update client. so even if an older version is cooked in....or an update is available a day after the rom is cooked....you just need to go into update and that will take care of that. but i do agree with the idea of frequently updated apps should be avoided.
the screen roatation is another one....i agree. i've seen it vary from rom to rom even within dutty's camp. maybe the cooks can unite and nail that one down.
I've been using different ROMs over the last month or so and what I normally go for is the lite ROM with all the performance updates. Then I add my own apps to it. From the ROMs that have applications cooked into it I may use 80-90% of it which I find is not good for me and I think this holds true for most, if not all users. Everyone has different taste/needs.
Maybe a ROM with just the OS and performance/optimization tweaks and leave the rest up to the users. They can find the cabs for everything so why bother to cook it in. The other thing with cooking in the apps if is if the app gets an update a new ROM is needed.
Or just cook your own ROM. There's enough info within the forums to make your own ROM and include whatever apps you want.
Maybe the focus should be on optimizing the OS and leave the apps to the choice of the user.
ecltech said:
I've been using different ROMs over the last month or so and what I normally go for is the lite ROM with all the performance updates. Then I add my own apps to it. From the ROMs that have applications cooked into it I may use 80-90% of it which I find is not good for me and I think this holds true for most, if not all users. Everyone has different taste/needs.
I think make a ROM with just the OS and performance tweaks and leave the rest up to the users. They can find the cabs for everything so why bother to cook it in. The other thing with cooking in the apps if is if the app gets an update a new ROM is needed.
Or just cook your own ROM. There's enough info within the forums to make your own ROM and include whatever apps you want.
Maybe the focus should be on optimizing the OS and leave the apps to the choice of the user.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I cooked a lot of roms but always stick with the full rom, Reason is i could take out 50mb of programs out of a rom and This doesnt give me that equvalent space and also performance sometimes are un-stable, thats my own opinion.
I think there is a halfway line with how much goodies you can install in a rom to please most people
ecltech said:
I've been using different ROMs over the last month or so and what I normally go for is the lite ROM with all the performance updates. Then I add my own apps to it. From the ROMs that have applications cooked into it I may use 80-90% of it which I find is not good for me and I think this holds true for most, if not all users. Everyone has different taste/needs.
Maybe a ROM with just the OS and performance/optimization tweaks and leave the rest up to the users. They can find the cabs for everything so why bother to cook it in. The other thing with cooking in the apps if is if the app gets an update a new ROM is needed.
Or just cook your own ROM. There's enough info within the forums to make your own ROM and include whatever apps you want.
Maybe the focus should be on optimizing the OS and leave the apps to the choice of the user.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
all good points...i tend to agree with you. but lets not forget we're dealing with people who dont know how to hard slp...refuse to read through 30 pages of posts or even use teh search feature. so a full features rom will always be needed.
rzanology said:
all good points...i tend to agree with you. but lets not forget we're dealing with people who dont know how to hard slp...refuse to read through 30 pages of posts or even use teh search feature. so a full features rom will always be needed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true. For a full featured ROM I think a based ROM might be better versus cooking in many apps. Here's a list that I think can be a good starting point for a base ROM. Some utilities, tweaks, visuals, etc. The rest can be managed by the user.
- Advanced Config
- GPS Test
- HTC Album
- HTC Camera (new version)
- NotePad
- Registry Editor
- Pocket RAR
- Office w/OneNote
- PDF Viewer
- psShutXP
- QuickGPS
- Total Commander
- NetCF 3.5
- ClearTemp
- KaiserTweak
ecltech said:
This is true. For a full featured ROM I think a based ROM might be better versus cooking in many apps. Here's a list that I think can be a good starting point for a base ROM. Some utilities, tweaks, visuals, etc. The rest can be managed by the user.
- Advanced Config
- GPS Test
- HTC Album
- HTC Camera (new version)
- NotePad
- Registry Editor
- Pocket RAR
- Office w/OneNote
- PDF Viewer
- psShutXP
- QuickGPS
- Total Commander
- NetCF 3.5
- ClearTemp
- KaiserTweak
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agreed. can we all agree this should be a common app set?
rzanology said:
agreed. can we all agree this should be a common app set?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats almost what I got apart from pdf viewer which i left out for user preference with adobe reader
the most popular apps don't have to be cooked into a ROM. every ROM can be a light or medium with everything else added as shared backup files using Sprite or SPB Backup. in another thread, some folks expressed reservations about my idea of Backup Install Packs, but i still think it could work. and no one would be forced to use them. it's something at least worth trying.
after flashing a new ROM, the ROM cooker or someone else could install demo versions of the most popular apps (HTC apps, Resco, SPB, SBSH, Opera, Palm Messaging, Kaiser Tweak, TCPMP and the plugins, etc.) onto their devices. They can then make a backup of their devices and make that backup available to other users. Then if someone installs the identical ROM, they could simply install the entire backup of those applications to their own devices. Users can keep the apps they want and register them with their own serials. They could then uninstall the rest.
that would be my idea. keep all ROMs medium and lite and let users customize them to full status with backup install packs.
PointUI drove me nuts, was nice and pretty, but in the way. Then again, I don't like the Cube either. Perhaps if I set up the cube I'd use it more, mainly for the contacts though - I don't use WMP or HTC's, I use TCPMP.'
I love the apps Dutty has, especially WKTask with its launcher and battery bar, quickmenu is awesome (without the large setting).
PocketCM has asked that it NOT be cooked in so...
IMHO a ROM should be usable for as much user as possible.
For one person S2U2 is a must-have application, but others just don't like it.
So a stable, fast and clean ROM should be the best for everyone.
Everyone can add his favorite apps, or don't add apps if you don't like them!
Just my opinion. (Of course I always go for the LITE variant, cause I just don't use a lot of apps)
What I would like to see:
Pretty much the default set of apps and tools in the stock ROM. Some of general use like pocketrar could be integrated but not much more.
Larger page pool.
What I absoltely don't want to see:
Too many UI changes, trial versions, bloated battery status apps and such.
Basically I just want the latest radio, OS and default apps all in one.
Stuff that's not likely to get upgrades for quite some time like the flash player and flash lite could preferebly be integrated but other than that I don't like too much tweaking, I just want the latest versions of the default stuff and then I do my own modifications and tweaks from there.
thanks for setting this up!! But i agree should install from CABs
No, They're updated too often to even think about cooking into the rom!
We need 1 stable EMPTY ROM. And cabs what have been edited for working on the 1 stable empty rom.
Hi!
Since last week, I've been working on an usable kernel for the HTC Vox. I guess you've already looked at this post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=368014&page=5
More or less, I have a working kernel. I've tested some images against the modified kernel, and both Gpe and Opie get to the welcome screen (without getting stucked). Nothing is really usable, as they're not even compiled for this specific platform (cannot get to compile opie for arm by myself... yet), but as a base, it's not bad at all.
As I've seen on my previous post, there's people interested on this (3300 views make me believe that), what I would want to know is, are there more developers interested on building a linux port for the Vox? Testers will be needed also, but later, when we get to something useful for testing
If you're interested, reply!
Cannot help u develop anything here, but would be a willing tester for it... thoroughly
I'd love to help, but I'm in the middle of moving to a new place and won't have internet most of the time next 2 weeks.
Do you have a Wiki or other place for collaberating? SourceForge perhaps?
I do have a wiki, but upload is no faster than around 80kB/s
In case you haven't seen it, you have a new build of the kernel on the other post, along with links and a little manual to start a graphic environment on the vox.
@barth666, @StefanHamminga
I've been thinking about it, and... I don't know what to do I mean, I think Sourceforge is the best place to dump it all, and it gives us a wiki too. On the other side, here is the xanadux wiki, and maybe it would be a good idea to let sourceforge host the files, and leave the wiki in here with other HTC phones... what do you think?
Oh! For GPIO dumping, the only thing I've seen working is the linwizard project's Haret_Omap.exe (in case you want to try to guess where the damned keys are )
PS: Anyone has an HTC Tornado? I'd love to know if the tornado kernel makes the leds and vibrator flash, I can't find where they are!
biktor_gj said:
PS: Anyone has an HTC Tornado? I'd love to know if the tornado kernel makes the leds and vibrator flash, I can't find where they are!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a tornado (and vox and wings), so tell me what to test
I know from the ml_iPod wiki (I am the admin) that SourceForge is really slow and the Php and Sql versions are old, in case you want to set up something like MediaWiki! You might want to try http://code.google.com/ , it has a built in Wiki and you can host files!
Just a suggestion
Keep up the good work
EDIT: I could even set one up, if you want, but I am not into coding at all!
Hi! Sorry for the delay, but I'm having lots of work this week and I've been unable to keep on with this...
@Walram: On the following days I'll try to build a kernel for you, wich should put all the lights on and makes the phone vibrate until you take the battery out Obviously just for testing, it shouldn't break anything, but I need to know if the originally-made-for-the-tornado vibrator and led drivers actually work on the tornado... Thanks!
@Frauhottelmann
Didn't know that google gave that service too! will look at it this weekend and post back when I have something done with this.. thanks for the feedback!
walram said:
I have a tornado (and vox and wings), so tell me what to test
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi!
Ok, here's what I want you to try. If you haven't downloaded it yet, download the Linux Test Image:
http://rapidshare.com/files/93938763/test.zip.html
Then, download the kernel for the tornado:
http://rapidshare.com/files/96145010/kernel_tornado_driver.tar.gz.html
Dump the contents of the first file to the memory card, and then overwrite the file "zImage", with the one from the second link. Run haret, and hit "Run".
It should, at least, boot. If it doesn't, tell me where it gets frozen (could be that you only se some dots on the screen, whatever appears, just tell me )
If it boots, don't stop looking at the leds (charge/bluetooth leds mainly), they should, at least, flash -theorically they should stay on all the time-. It also should vibrate, at least for a quarter of second
I just need to know what it actually does!
Thanks!
So what about a dev-page? Then you don't need to upload it to Rapidshare and you can see the progress better!
Hi frauhottelmann,
I'm going to tell you the truth. I think it would be better if it's you who admins a site for this project than if I do, for various reasons:
1. I started all this thing, but I'm no owner of anything, by now I just hacked four things to make this phone boot a kernel, but no more.
2. I've seen your work at the ml_ipod sourceforge page, and think it's usable, clean, and nice, and I think that's exactly what we would need (even if it's a little slow just as you stated in your previous post). I could make the graphics for the web (I'm quite decent at photoshop), but I have never built a wiki, or a project anywhere else, and I don't know a sh** about it, so that would be another big thing to learn, and for now, I gotta learn more about the linux kernel, and that itself it's huge.
3. I don't think I can handle work, classes, building patches, kernels and bootstrap images and administrate a site, it feels like too much for me
Conclussion? I think it's better to let people do what does better, and I'm quite sure you'll do it better than I, so if you want, it's all yours
PS: In any case, we will need a name for the project, any suggestions?
What I have heard from the ml_iPod developers is that upload to SF is not a nice process either. I still think Google code is better, although it's not as customizable as SF.net. But we could also set up a page on Googlepages (pages.google.com) and then point to the Google code site with the Wiki and downloads!
I can offer my technical know-how (SPL, GPIOs, etc.)
Since I have little time you should ask me precise questions for which I can try to find the answers.
Sorry for the delay...
frauhottelmann said:
What I have heard from the ml_iPod developers is that upload to SF is not a nice process either. I still think Google code is better, although it's not as customizable as SF.net. But we could also set up a page on Googlepages (pages.google.com) and then point to the Google code site with the Wiki and downloads!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So we can start using google code, and stick with it if it goes well. We can always change the hosting if something goes wrong! About the wiki, the easiest thing is start with google code too, and simply link the xda wiki to it...
i can't code, but i can keep you company maybe
i am here if help is nedeed
But what name do we want to use?
Linux for Vox?
LinVox !
how does that sound ?
just kidding
waiting to get linux running on my vox....
But what name do we want to use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hooked on Vonix!
vonix sounds ok
can also try "Mobile TUX"
wow
this is an incredible news ! linux on the Vox !
I'd love to flash mine with a movibuntu distro =)
How do you guys feel about splitting the project up in several subprojects?
Like:
Kernel and driver work: TI OMAP HTC Vox board patch and perhaps drivers
Base system: minimal rootfs and toolkit to utilize all Vox functionality
Usability: GUI and (for instance) Android support
This would also enable us to share the base system & usability work with other 'linux on smartphone' and embedded projects.
I do have a suggestion for the base system:
www.emdebian.org
Very up to date build toolchain for arm (GCC 4.x toolchains) and you can have apt support on the base rom. This would allow access to a huge amount of packages that can be used with relatively little effort. Others I've checked out are the new mobile ubuntu (system requirements way to high), MontaVista (severe lack of proper documentation to get up to speed quickly), uClinux (uses ulibc instead of the faster full fledged one, in my opinion we'd better trade some storage for more speed) and some others I can't remember now...
PS. I've got internet at my new place and I've recovered my bricked wizard from the 'spare electronics bin', so finally I can spend some more time on this
Hey all...
So I have been in the Kaiser forums for about a week now and have played around with some of the ROMs out there. My previous device was a PPC-6700. On that device there was a ROM and an Extended ROM. To the best of my experience, I never played with the ROM, but I did unlock the extended ROM and remove many of the bloatware cabs. I also set up some file (I can't remember the name, but it was similar to the UC option) which would allow my own CABs placed in the extended ROM to be auto-installed. In this way we were able to distribute the phones to employees with only the software we wanted (for instance, with our company cert pre-loaded and TCPMP to play back cisco VMs).
While I understand the interest in "cooking" a ROM to get all the latest and greates components (WM version, Radio, etc.) from the various ROMs into one uber-ROM, I'm not sure I see the advantage of adding in all the additional pieces of software.
From my viewpoint, I would think that a ROM should be as clean as possible, this would present a nice base for users to customize. Instead of "cooking" all the files for other components (plugins, menu replacements, voice command, SIPs, etc) into the ROM, why not just provide these as CABs either within the ROM or as a separate download alongside the ROM?
This would allow not only users to choose what to add, but also allow them to remove an installed CAB if they no longer want to use it or if a new one comes along.
I understand part of the allure of a cooked ROM is that the cook has ensured all the components work together... and in my scenario this would still be the case. The ROM would be qualified and shipped with a certain set of applications, but that doesn't mean they all need to be installed.
Another argument I hear for using a cooked ROM is that all the apps are already installed and it doesn't take time to reinstall all the apps. However, with UC, can you not just load all CABs onto an SD and have them all autoinstall? I am pretty sure you can write a file that will install a set of cabs even from local storage. While I understand that this might take a couple minutes more initially, I think the time saved in the long run would be equal or more. For instance, it might take me 10 minutes after I re-flash a base ROM to load another 15 CABs that I want. But, when a new version comes out of my application, or another application I want to install conflicts with something on there, I can easily uninstall the CAB. Small changes to the configurations can also be made without cooking a new ROM.
Now I fully appreciate all the work the cooks on this site have done. I think their work is great. What I am suggesting is an alternative methodology and one that is certainly not new. I am the type of person who likes a very clean build, but also enjoy the many features that are offered with some of the busier ROMs. I feel that having a base build and then simple a suite of approved or offered CABs make the whole process cleaner.
I am trying to understand how the mindset evolved here to make these feature rich ROMs instead of the alternative. The main argument I have heard is that it is quicker to just flash a ROM with all apps rather than load each one. As I have addressed that above, I don't think that the time savings are significant in comparison to the flexibility of modular CABs.
Perhaps there are additional advantages to the current approach that I have overlooked and I would be interested in hearing them.
tell me your thoughts?
wow......all that writing and all you are suggesting that cooks put out some clean roms? arent those already available?
lmfao flash your own clean rom, flash your own choice of radio, tweak on your own, etc...
Do you ever contribute anything worthwhile to threads or do you just prefer to be a sarcastic jerk?
I realize there are some clean ROMs out there...that wasn't the full scope of the post.
The "clean" ROMs are indeed what I would prefer, however that leaves the user going around hunting for all the applications and additions they desire. (And don't use the argument that the user is lazy if they don't spend the time to do this...after all that is what the "cooked" roms allow the user to be...lazy).
The alternative is the loaded ROM which has everything chosen by the cook. The user can't uninstall a component he may not want, or if it causes conflicts with something else.
The middle ground is what I am advocating...a clean ROM but offered with either "built-in" cabs or a separate repository. This would allow the user to install what they wanted (or install it all...then removing what they don't find useful). This would also allow easier updates in between major cooked releases.
I am not stating one way is definitively better, just that at some point someone decided to cook it all in rather then just offer the cab files, and I am looking for the advantage over my alternative.
What would even be nice (and if I knew how to code for PPC I would look to do it!) would be a little menu app that could manage installs from a repository either on your SD card or even online! So you could browse a list of available apps, versions, and descriptions and load it right up. These repositories would then be what the cooks spent time compiling, even offering "Suites" of applications that complement each other well.
As I stated in my original post I am very thankful for the work that others have contributed here and am not belittling their accomplishments in any way. I am just trying to understand how and why things have evolved to their current situation since, if I were to have the time and knowledge I see my framework as more workable (IMHO).
My personal opinion
That's one of the best presented arguments I've seen in a while Bengalih.
Completely agree with all your reasons for preferring a clean ROM over a loaded one - particularly the ability to update applications as and when a new cab is released. While this is the best answer for you (as you state) and in all probability every person with the willingness to go and look for the latest version of everything, I personally still prefer the loaded ROM. I simply prefer the least amount of time between a Hard Reset and being fully back up and running - in my case as long as it takes me to type in my Exchange server details. I try to cook in applications without any bugs that do what I want, so I won't need that newer version (just want it) and if a newer version does come out I can easily bake it into another ROM and be back up and running from start to finish within half an hour (mostly).
While you're completely correct in everything you say - I'm one of the fundamentally lazy people (seriously, check out my ROM's v1.3 intro - that's the word I use to describe why I built it) and so I tend to prefer loaded ROMs.
the way i see it, we cook a rom to have our ideal base. Things where we meet the minimum. The minimum for me must have HTC home, office, tomtom, the games that I always play, which is a whole variety, pim backup, and battery status. When I have my clean base, I just add my packages, which doesn't even take me long at all. If something screws up, we flash our cooked rom, and we don't have to worry about flashing a clean base and adding all our cabs. My roms include a lot of apps, but thats what I expect from my base. Having cabs doesn't seem as clean. I see your point, but cooking your own rom, you don't feel like trying anyone elses roms because the rom is exactly the way you want it.
Thanks for your reply Stu...a perfect example of how one can disagree with an opinion while being completely civil. It seems many other members of this forum can learn from your example.
I'm still not 100% sure I agree with the time you save by having everything cooked in. As you admit, if you want to upgrade an app you would basically cook a fresh ROM with the new package in it and take up to 30 mins. To be honest I would think that you could load ALL your cabs in well under 30 minutes (the first time) and then it takes about 1 minute to upgrade a cab if a new version comes out.
Of course it depends on how often you do each. If you really find yourself reloading your ROM alot...let's say once a week, you might have saved yourself 10-20 mins each time since you don't need to load CABs. However if you instead wanted to upgrade 4 apps, you have saved yourself 30 mins each time from having to recook the ROM.
I guess another thing I don't understand about the argument for the fully loaded ROM is how often are you really re-flashing your ROM? While I understand someone may do this frequently if they are testing ROMs, how often do you really need to re-flash your ROM once it is running with the apps you like (and/or cooked in)?
Also, I believe your opinion is slanted (and not in a bad way) because you obviously cook your own ROMs. Because of this you can customize it the way you want since you have total control. Some of the cooks on here seem to be people like you who then just turn over their ROM for others to use, while other cooks seem to be making ROMs to please the population. Not saying either is a bad thing...just what I notice.
I haven't cooked my own ROM yet (though I have read through the tutorials). I believe however that even after I have decided on everything I want that I won't cook a loaded ROM (if i cook one at all). I would prefer to just put all the CABs i use in a directory and if i ever rebuild just load them all back on, or possibly create a UC script to load them all off my storage card.
Although I still don't really see the advantage of the fully loaded ROM (unless of course you tend to A) reflash your ROM frequently (for what reason?) and B) Tend to not want to upgrade CABs frequently)... to each his own.
thanks!
thomassster said:
Having cabs doesn't seem as clean. I see your point, but cooking your own rom, you don't feel like trying anyone elses roms because the rom is exactly the way you want it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's funny you say that thomas... because i feel opposite. I feel that with the cooked ROMs it seems that many things just get dumped into the Windows directory instead of being put into individual Program folders. In addition, with no uninstall option it gives me a non-clean feeling
I see your point of course on just building the base the way you want and it makes sense if you don't feel you will want to upgrade an individual component.
I guess I am generally they type that like to go and get the newest version of an app if it is available and would find the process quicker if i could just upgrade the CAB.
Also, as stated above, once I find a config I like I don't know why I would reflash my ROM on any type of frequent basis.
There are additional reasons why certain applications cooked into ROMs aren't always your best alternative.
This is when certain applications (e.g., TomTom, MobiTV & XMRadio) require specific directories for installation. If cooked into the ROM, it will occupy twice the amount of space, since all files are placed in \Windows and through initflashfiles.dat get copied to other locations (e.g., \Program Files\MobiTV). Chefs that know about this avoid cooking these apps into their ROMs.
As for ROMs & which way is better, it's a matter of personal taste. Some folks prefer different levels of clean, and others prefer different levels of full. Some people won't flash unless a cube is included. It's pretty much why I release 8 different versions...
Thanks _Alex_,
Yes that speaks to my point to a degree.
It seems that most cooks don't use INITFLASHFILES.TXT to move applications to a specific directory (under \Program Files) and just let everything sit in \Windows. I was under the impression that INITFLASHFILES could MOVE the files and not just COPY, so thanks for clearing that up. Would it not be possible to execute some sort of script to delete the unnecessary files from Windows and add reg entries to allow programs to be listed in add/remove? Of course this would be additional work for the cook but would really provide the best of both worlds.
I realize you have alot of time and experience invested in your methods (which we all appreciate). But, it would seem to me that instead of cooking 8 ROMs you could cook a base and then offer CAB installation suites as I mention. With either a custom menu install app like I suggest, or UC scripts the process can be automated.
I am not necessarily suggesting that you change how you do things (since you do it so well D), but I just throw this idea out there in case any experienced cooks, or even newcomers agree with my method they are welcome to give it a try.
thanks for your input
bengalih said:
Thanks _Alex_,
Yes that speaks to my point to a degree.
It seems that most cooks don't use INITFLASHFILES.TXT to move applications to a specific directory (under \Program Files) and just let everything sit in \Windows. I was under the impression that INITFLASHFILES could MOVE the files and not just COPY, so thanks for clearing that up. Would it not be possible to execute some sort of script to delete the unnecessary files from Windows and add reg entries to allow programs to be listed in add/remove? Of course this would be additional work for the cook but would really provide the best of both worlds.
I realize you have alot of time and experience invested in your methods (which we all appreciate). But, it would seem to me that instead of cooking 8 ROMs you could cook a base and then offer CAB installation suites as I mention. With either a custom menu install app like I suggest, or UC scripts the process can be automated.
I am not necessarily suggesting that you change how you do things (since you do it so well D), but I just throw this idea out there in case any experienced cooks, or even newcomers agree with my method they are welcome to give it a try.
thanks for your input
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The method you describe has been mentioned before in other threads and quite possibly in its own thread. (The topic was UC packs, CAB packs or something like that)
There are three cons with that method:
Which cabs to include are subjective, so it's much easier for an individual to gather his/her own cabs
Creating CABs can be a serious pain in the ass, especially if you have 50 OEM packages that need converting and/or fixing for the specific ROM you're building
Cross ROM / device support, which frequently occurs when CABs are released.
On the other hand, with a cooked ROM, you know it works because the chef ( andhis beta tester(s) ) spent the time to test it on the same/similar device and on a specific OS build. ROMs give a better experience overall because of this testing.
FWIW, I've thought about doing what you mention above waaay back with my first UltraClean ROM, but as stated, serious PITA
*SHRUG* Perhaps I'll re-consider it in the future too...
edit: Alltheway used to offer UC packs. Not sure if he still does on his 4shared folder...
I have, personally, always preferred a clean ROM. Yes, it takes some time to set it up the way you want it but, at least, that way, I am not stuck with applications I do not use. If I were to cook a ROM, I would cook it the way I want it and then distribute it. Most cooks here do just that. I would be happy if every cooks released a clean ROM but that is not possible. If cooking ROMs were a full-time job for these cooks, then, I would definitely demand one. So, the way I feel it, if I am lazy or not good enough to cook my own ROMs then I should stick with what has been released and not complain.
@ sherpa:
Perhaps you should go back and re-read my posts. Not once did I "demand" or "complain" about anything that any cook has put out. In fact more than once did I thank and compliment them on all their work. The fact that you state you would "demand" a ROM a certain way if this was the cook's full time job show that it is you more than I who feel that they are, or might be, owed something from these contributors. I fully realize that many cooks are just putting out their own personal ROMs to the masses, but there are plenty of them out there that are also looking to please the community and offer something different. It was to these people that I thought my message might resonate and someone might want to try something like it. As _Alex_ suggested others have thought similarly at somepoint (including himself), so I am not alone in my thoughts. So before you accuse me of complaining, you should re-examine my own words and yours.
@_Alex_
Thanks for the thoughts. I see all the points you are making. However I would argue that point #1 and #3 happen whichever method you choose. A cook is subjective when choosing which CABs to add to a loaded ROM as well. In addition, a single ROM is also device dependent whether it is fully loaded or not. I feel your pain on point #2 about creating CABs... you helped me out in another thread as I created a CAB of the latest Remote Desktop client (with drive mapping support) from the latest AT&T test ROM. I agree that for the cook that would be an extra effort although in many cases most of the CABs are already out there.
Again, I am making a recommendation as to a new (or old?) way to approach this. It sounds like it would be good for the user, but more work for the cook. Of course the current methods are well established, so even if my idea has merits it would most likely encounter some resistance (and as seen already by some, accusations and ignorance.) I still like the idea of an online (or off) repository with a little front-end on the device. The repository can be loaded with approved CABs which can be loaded and unloaded off the device.
In the long run, I don't think it will matter much for me individually, as I will most likely use an available clean build, an RTM ROM, or maybe cook my own. But in any case, I will stick with CABs, and just hope that the ones i need are available or I am able to create them myself (which is exactly what I did for Remote Desktop).
thx!
Dude, I never accused you of complaining. When I wrote "not complain", I meant it to the general population who complain about what's included and what's not included.
No offense meant, no offense taken then. Based on how this thread started out I guess I was just in a defensive mind-set.
We all good
ok bro bengalish
you are just quiet right , i understand your point and i also think that thought cookers make a great work to interduce a room that is useful for everyone but it still better to get a clean room and that's because a simple reason , you will never be able to make everyone happy because simply everyone of us has his owen taste
but i would like to describe what a clean room means ..
i belive it should contain main updates that everyone will need i mean updates like camera , sound and system etc..
i have to thank you for this rich argue and much greeting for you
and i hope really everyone in this forum can show little respect and kindness for the others
cheers
Yes haam,
I would prefer to see more frequent ROMs that have all the base stuff updated (latest BT, VC, etc). And not have the cooks spend as much time with the additional applications as many people will want to do customization here. To the main point, I think there are alot more people out there who can cook an application CAB then cook a ROM with all the latest drivers properly implemented. In my framework the cooks can focus on an up to date clean ROM and the assistant chefs (many in the community) could work on CABs.
Of course I fully acknowledge that there is a segment here (cooks included) that they want everything loaded from the get go and don't really care about additional customization. If that is the majority then things will stay status quo. If not, maybe we will see more people working on UC or CAB packs or something to that effect.
thanks for everyone's thoughts!
First and foremost, my hats (the whole rack of 'em) off to all the chefs in their respective kitchens. I've personally been a silent, yet happy customer for quite some time, and have been checking the forum daily for the next flash.
However, I've found that different ROMs will, obviously, have their list of capabilities and limits. Some support SIP better than others, some can't run iGo, etc. Mostly I flash, then find out during my installations, etc., and by that time I'm too lazy to flash back and just live with what I have. I would probably not flash ROMs that didn't support iGo and SIP if I knew that up front.
Having that in mind, I thought we could (as a group of continous beta testers and their respective gurus) try to formulate what would be a "check-list" for ROM releases, thus allowing the newbies (that don't know what to expect) and the old bees (buzzing along from ROM to ROM) to pick the right ROM flavor.
An example would be:
ROM Details
=========
ROM Name / Version: xxxx (Dutty's ..., Schap's ..., etc.)
CE Version: xxxx
Radio Versions Supported: xxxx ( So we know what we should have before flashing )
Based on: HTC WWE Release xxx (So we know if we got the new "hardware acceleration, etc")
Compatability
=========
SIP: [Not/Is] Supported, configured by ...
Skype: [Not/Is] Supported
iGo v7: Works out of the box / Requires removal of HTC Home
iGo v8: Not Supported
etc.
Thoughts about what this should include?
- SiteLister
Well I'm gonna jump on this first since chances are others won't be very nice about this thread
Not that I think your idea is a bad one, but to be honest most cooks already provide this information when they release a ROM.
If application compatibility isn't listed then the first 20 posts will bring it out....
If what you are asking is to compile a whole list of all these ROMs in one place. OK, good idea...but no one is going to do it for you.
If you like the idea...do it youself, or at least make a good start. Putting a post out like this is more likely to draw animosity since you are asking others to provide information that has been put out there numerous times. Good idea or not, you should make the initial effort and if you build something nice, people will contribut and thank you. Otherwise, they will just flame...
In addition, the Wiki would be the best place to do this.
not to say that this is a bad idea but there is one major flaw with the idea, most chefs cook for themselves and then release. with that said most of the chefs do not sit and try every possible application that can be put on your Kaiser, if you want to know what roms work with what applications and you also want to be the first to flash it and have the latest then you just have to try it for yourself. if you don't mind waiting you can wait a few days for the members that do use the programs you use to see if they say it works. i personally like to take a rom cooked by a chef, dump it and recook it for myself with the cabs my UC would usually install into the rom where i want them to be. sorry if this seems like a **** response but as far as i can see there is no way for the chefs to tell you what does and doesn't work and that's why we have threads after the rom release for people to tell others what does and doesn't work.
tubaking182 said:
not to say that this is a bad idea but there is one major flaw with the idea, most chefs cook for themselves and then release. with that said most of the chefs do not sit and try every possible application that can be put on your Kaiser, if you want to know what roms work with what applications and you also want to be the first to flash it and have the latest then you just have to try it for yourself. if you don't mind waiting you can wait a few days for the members that do use the programs you use to see if they say it works. i personally like to take a rom cooked by a chef, dump it and recook it for myself with the cabs my UC would usually install into the rom where i want them to be. sorry if this seems like a **** response but as far as i can see there is no way for the chefs to tell you what does and doesn't work and that's why we have threads after the rom release for people to tell others what does and doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of this is true... however I don't think he is asking the chef's to do anything different, it just looks like he wants an encyclopedic reference of all ROMs and their features. Again, good idea...but just do it if you want it. Others will contribute if they find it worthy, if they don't...then oh well, at least you learned for yourself.
sitelister said:
An example would be:
ROM Details
=========
ROM Name / Version: xxxx (Dutty's ..., Schap's ..., etc.)
CE Version: xxxx
Radio Versions Supported: xxxx ( So we know what we should have before flashing )
Based on: HTC WWE Release xxx (So we know if we got the new "hardware acceleration, etc")
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im hip to this.. well mainly must of us do that already in one form or another just not in that pretty format
sitelister said:
Compatability
=========
SIP: [Not/Is] Supported, configured by ...
Skype: [Not/Is] Supported
iGo v7: Works out of the box / Requires removal of HTC Home
iGo v8: Not Supported
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not a bad idea, however this would require us to manually test a billion pieces of software in order before giving it out.
Now how about a better idea, someone should start a kaiser wiki page on bug fixes, etc... In all of my beta roms when someone points out an issue i will ask them to provide a link for a fix if i dont know it already, i actually do this for a couple of reasons.
1. it helps promote interactivity between forum members and helps to get people communicating, etc. This also helps to hinder the n00b factor and provides links for other people.
2. it provides me reference point, before i release each beta i go through the previous threads and make sure that i have fixed everything that was broken prior.
sitelister said:
First and foremost, my hats (the whole rack of 'em) off to all the chefs in their respective kitchens. I've personally been a silent, yet happy customer for quite some time, and have been checking the forum daily for the next flash.
However, I've found that different ROMs will, obviously, have their list of capabilities and limits. Some support SIP better than others, some can't run iGo, etc. Mostly I flash, then find out during my installations, etc., and by that time I'm too lazy to flash back and just live with what I have. I would probably not flash ROMs that didn't support iGo and SIP if I knew that up front.
Having that in mind, I thought we could (as a group of continous beta testers and their respective gurus) try to formulate what would be a "check-list" for ROM releases, thus allowing the newbies (that don't know what to expect) and the old bees (buzzing along from ROM to ROM) to pick the right ROM flavor.
An example would be:
ROM Details
=========
ROM Name / Version: xxxx (Dutty's ..., Schap's ..., etc.)
CE Version: xxxx
Radio Versions Supported: xxxx ( So we know what we should have before flashing )
Based on: HTC WWE Release xxx (So we know if we got the new "hardware acceleration, etc")
Compatability
=========
SIP: [Not/Is] Supported, configured by ...
Skype: [Not/Is] Supported
iGo v7: Works out of the box / Requires removal of HTC Home
iGo v8: Not Supported
etc.
Thoughts about what this should include?
- SiteLister
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah configuration management then maybe ISO accreditation................
Flash, enjoy, read, explore, reflash again and again.
Remember this isn't someones job its their hobby that they share.
Remember to say thankyou every now and then.
Thanks
usually it's the base rom that isn't compatible with the software. Most chefs just take the base rom and strip it out to remove bloated software and add in their own personal software. There are some chefs that go out of their way and add in the necessary dlls and files to make certain software work, but it is really difficult for chefs to do such a thing. Maybe a specific thread for each software to work on a particular rom would be helpful.
Thanks for your replies, y'all.
To be clear (and I can see where I may have not been there), I was fishing for interest. The next thing up would be to set it up in one format or another (Wiki, whatever) - I'm just not usually for building something before there is a market for it. When I said "we could" I meant it would be something that people could contribute to (myself, amongst others), in a format better appealing than, or more appropriate than those 105-long pages mostly containing praises, bashes, and little information (there's quite the picking to do when you're actually trying to decypher what a ROM's capabilities are).
If there is an interest, I'd be happy to put in the initial effort, but I'm also fishing for content requirements - that is, I've put forward some kind of basic format, but what other information would cause people to make a judgement? what kind of apps are important, etc.
Quick replies:
bengalih - I'm hanging on the fact that people are, inherently, nice. Hopefully at a higher ratio in this forum .
tubaking - Agreed, most users will give the feedback back to the cook or the forum. I'm actually not asking anyone to do more work than they already are. My thoughts are that the feedback is sometimes lost in (or hard to gather from) the forum. Fixes are also all over the place (for example - the iGo version compatability thread). I believe it's because the tool is incorrect (discussions).
bengalih - Agreed.
shogunmark - Sounds good. Wiki then as the solution? - Possibly have one page per release, and a summary in a top-level page that contains a comparative table?
halon - I'm sure I don't say it enough --> THANKS!
thomassster - I believe that the concept is good, but you're back to trying to nitpick for each application you're interested in, in hopes that people organize it in that fashion. Additionally, you're still back into reading a bunch of acknowledgments, accreditations and bashes (which take up a good chunk of the forum content).
... Thoughts?
inconsistencies in "support"
This is a good idea (or a bugzilla-type thread/wiki) and as ShogunMark stated in his first post, the first 20 posts (pages!) bring out the main probs. the only issue there is that some posters inevitably state that something or everything is working for them (perfectly) out of the box, while others experience major dysfunction, creating a confusing morass of info.
How bout a survey page - everyone votes for what works or not?
Cheers-
Yes this sounds like a good idea for someone as a side project to document in the wiki. But really most of this information can be found in the first 20 to 30 posts. And most roms, are quickly superceded by another new version. So if you want to do it, I am sure someone will read it. But asking the chef's things like does IGO work or Skype, If they don't use them they should not be expected to test them...IGO who cares if it works or not, only the people that use it..not everyone..
SO if you want to create a wiki page with this info; go ahead and do it and maybe someone will read it...Maybe good idea, but it will quickly be outdated.
THIS THREAD IS SPECIFICALLY FOR RESEARCH
So im already thinking of ideas for my next rom when the obvious occured to me, everyone has different needs. So why not try to appeal to everyone instead of just a select few.
And to the other chefs out there. This poll may help you do the same, by finding out what people want.
So here are the questions i am posing to everyone.
1. Fully loaded. This would be a rom that has alot of popular apps cooked in as well as some lesser known apps. This is something that doesnt fit everyones needs, but it also gives some unknown apps a chance to shine.
2. Medium build. This would be a rom that has just the basic's (but still built along popular apps). This would be something that includes media players and the plugins to support it (ie things like the flash bundle).
3. Business edition. This would be a rom that is built for business users in mind. it would be almost completely stripped except would still have office built in. Would also include opera. But the rest would be clean.
4. stripped build. This would be no 3rd party apps and most oem apps ripped from the build. would include ripping out office and java and would give the user the most choices of what they want to install.
I am also going to be working on a way to try to support other languages so that no one is left out. i havent officially started this yet, but will probably start ripping into some of these options this weekend. So i would appreciate input from other chefs out there on their experiences of making a WWE rom compatible with out languages.
Since this is a question that will help everyone and including the chefs, i am going to temporarily stick this.
Personally since I have at&t, my preferences would be:
1. Based on an at&t build.
2. Fully loaded.
3. Bluetooth and MSVC compatible.
But all of that is worthless without stability. The biggest mistake I see most cooks do is to be too quick to come out with the next version of their ROM too quickly. Make sure you listen to your users and tried to get all of the bugs fixed before you start trying to upgrade software and creating more bugs for yourself.
cragordon said:
Personally since I have at&t, my preferences would be:
1. Based on an at&t build.
2. Fully loaded.
3. Bluetooth and MSVC compatible.
But all of that is worthless without stability. ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
there we go, that's y I voted for Stripped.
Maybe i should have added another poll option that said:
"Who cares as long as its stable" lol
the_passenger said:
there we go, that's y I voted for Stripped.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess you have a point I should have thought of that before I voted. Most of the time the fully loaded ROMs don't have much stability. I don't think stripped is the answer either thought simply for the fact that the media player and stuff should be default according to his description stripped doesn't have ANYTHING @all
shogunmark said:
Maybe i should have added another poll option that said:
"Who cares as long as its stable" lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol I second that motion.
cragordon said:
I guess you have a point I should have thought of that before I voted. Most of the time the fully loaded ROMs don't have much stability.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tend to disagree with that statement. And i can only speak for myself, however when i do my fully loaded builds this ensures me that most of the popular apps are already working. And honestly i think that a stripped version would be open to more bugs because now your manually ripping everything out and leaves more room for errors. But thats just my personal opinion, this is why i made this poll.
Fully Loaded 2.0
Been reading these threads for the past three/four months. There is so much to offer with each variation of ROM, that I find it hard to keep up. Hasitant at first, but now I find myself flashing on a weekly basis. I agree about stability but having all the hot toys with some space left over and nice speed make all the more joy. Themes and all that can be added later and I haven't found them to lead to bug issues.
Keep doing what yall do... and we'll keep eating. Much respect to the Chefs!!
shogunmark said:
I tend to disagree with that statement. And i can only speak for myself, however when i do my fully loaded builds this ensures me that most of the popular apps are already working. And honestly i think that a stripped version would be open to more bugs because now your manually ripping everything out and leaves more room for errors. But thats just my personal opinion, this is why i made this poll.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can see that point of view also. I have never tried one of your ROMS so I cant say. Well at least not on my kaiser i havent.
I would have to say medium because its a combination have having all the common stuff built in without any hassle to the users while still giving enough room left too customize.
I'd like to say a mixed between
Fully Loaded + Stripped
may sound stupid but hear me out
stripped build. "This would be no 3rd party apps and most oem apps ripped from the build. would include ripping out office and java and would give the user the most choices of what they want to install."
but with recommendations of new apps so it "gives some unknown apps a chance to shine."
o and with office left in
but thats just me
while on the subject wats the difference (in terms of speed and stuff) if you for e.g. have
1. 6.1 rom with office cooked in
2. 6.1 rom with office installed after
i voted business because i like a nice little rom but everything already working out of the box i.e camera, office, and the other basics. In a business rom i don't like the idea of having htc home/hcc (just my opinion) as there are programs better than that and each user should have the option to install/uninstall htc home.
Didn't vote stripped because than the camera is removed and for me all the hardware needs to be functioning on a rom. I love multimedia roms (fully loaded) but i like installing everything to my storage card so thats why i didn't vote for that particular category.
I personally like fully loaded roms best, as long as they retain speed and stability!!!! Business builds are also nice, b/c of customization, but I agree with thesire in that stripped builds are just TOO naked, I need the camera! So if I have to pick just one, I pick fully loaded!
plz cook the WWE as well... dont be bias to att.... ^_^
Business + Flash Bundle - Opera
shogunmark said:
. . .
2. Medium build. This would be a rom that has just the basic's (but still built along popular apps). This would be something that includes media players and the plugins to support it (ie things like the flash bundle).
3. Business edition. This would be a rom that is built for business users in mind. it would be almost completely stripped except would still have office built in. Would also include opera. But the rest would be clean.
4. stripped build. This would be no 3rd party apps and most oem apps ripped from the build. would include ripping out office and java and would give the user the most choices of what they want to install. . .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I voted stripped because I like to have as much room as possible to add in what I want and not have to worry about Memory vs. Storage Card, but from your descriptions what I would really like, is Business edition with Flash Bundle, but without Opera. I use Office like crazy, esp. Excel, and I want to be able to use TCPMP, and Java apps.
Thanks for doing this survey!
I posted "Who cares, as long as it's stable" meaning speedy, too I like everything up and running w/ room to spare, but that's a bit of an oxymoron. I installed everything I could to my storage card, figured out what continued to work from there after flashing, and most everything does (but not all...).
Lean, stable, fast works best for me. I load a bunch of Spb stuff on, and run the rest from my card. But I do like playing w/ new toys, so the fully loaded is good too. Medium fits my routine quite well. Even small works. So, who cares? As long as it's stable and fast, I can tweak and trick out the rest.
BTW, I LOVE Death, thanks so much for that!!!
I have been around for awhile, and I have learned so much from this rom flashing fixation that we all have.... Personally I try all of the roms out, then I dump ,em and take the packages I want and keep them in my kitchen , and add what I liked from each rom to my own "reheated" (I am no cook) rom. Sashimi has sure made my life easier!! So it is really hard for me to pick... I like the loaded ones, because I can snag new packages, but I like the stripped ones, so I can add my own packages. Some (most) programs use less memory when cooked than when installed from a cab file. Some programs just seem to run better when cooked, some run better with cab files... You cooks just keep doing what you are doing, because I like them all, any way you cook it!!
And by the way since I might possibly have the great Shogun's attention for a minute... how do you make that tsk file so frickin' black? I think I might have actually been the originator of the glossy black bars.cab (check my BootScreen thread) but the reason I made it was because the .tsk file could not keep the 160 saved in the registry. But your bars are black and have no highlight color... how do you do that?!
Research Poll
I would go for maximum flexibility - which in my mind means we should develop and cook a stripped, stable ROM with all of the bells and whistles as CABs that have been fully vetted and tested for stability, capability AND Viri/malware). The problem is (as is always the case), what is one man's garbage is another's man's treasure. I need a basic phone, bluetooth (hands free automobile work), contacts and calendar. WiFi is extra to me, but not to the next guy and gal. What I worry about is building "fully loaded" ROMs that end up being no different than Tilt's maddeningly bloated original AT&T ROM. Just give me the basics and I will download, cook or buy the add ons I need.
This probably means we need to restructure the poll to individually list the myriad possible and current functions of a Phone/PDA and then let individuals have, say, 10 votes and after a few weeks add up the votes and choose to incorporate into a ROM the top 10 items and all else would be developed as add-on CABs.
Just my $00.02
In real estate it is location, location, location.
In ROMs it is stability, stability, and features.
At least this is true for me, YMMV.
In detail - While I do like playing around with new ROMs, especially when I find new programs that I really like, I use my phone primarily as a business tool (e-mail, calender, etc), and secondarily as an entertainment device. My web surfing from my phone is moderate, and mostly limited to RSS feeds and then the articles behind them. I do use it as a mp3/video player on flights, but not in the car since I have XM, and I have a Tom Tom, so I only use the GPS when I forget that! My other consideration is that I have not found myself even close to worrying about memory space on the Kaiser and I usually install programs to the device for stability purposes.
So... what does all this mean for what I prefer in a ROM? Well, it means that since I can use Kaiser Kitchen, my top preference is a clean ROM that I can easily add packages to. That being said, the packages need to fully functional and stripping them from the ROM shouldn't cause other issues. My previous fave was _Alex_'s 6.0, but i have not been able to find a similar 6.1. So, if you loaded rom folders and OEM and add on package folders, that would be most awesome. Then I can choose what I want to add in (things like office that are not likely to change now, and other programs that I know are version stable) and add the other programs that I have to have but that version change all the time (phoneAlarm)
But - since that is quite possibly harder than just cooking a ROM (and not nearly as rewarding) my preference is either a business or a medium depending on what was in the medium. These are also given bonus points, since as someone pointed out, stripping out certain key applications like the camera, usually leads to stability degradation.
My $0.03 (more than 2 cents worth of typing here)