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Touch Pro vs Hermes - Comparison

Hi all,
I thought it would be good to have a thread that compares Touch Pro to Hermes.
For those who have a Touch Pro and have had a Hermes please share with us your thoughts on speed, use of keyboard, reception, battery and anything else you care to mention.

Well, there's way more RAM/ROM. The Raphael also has GPS, 5 row keyboard, VGA 2.8 screen, and a much better camera. There's a lot more but that's just the giss of things.

Does the faster processor and more memory actually translate into better performance in reality?

Mrjasjam said:
Does the faster processor and more memory actually translate into better performance in reality?
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Click to collapse
Definitely, much better performance, especially coming from a Hermes. The numbers aren't just numbers, they represent qualities of the hardware

i tried the tilt and honestly even with more ram and rom didnt notice a huge difference
has anyone tried out pocketcm on a touch pro yet? interested in how that runs with skyfire and a few other things at the same time

From what i've heard, Skyfire doesn't run well with the phone all in all. You'll notice the RAM/ROM difference when you have more things open in the background.

kareem9nba said:
From what i've heard, Skyfire doesn't run well with the phone all in all. You'll notice the RAM/ROM difference when you have more things open in the background.
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Yeah, that's what I've heard... Someone once told me it only displays on half screen if you try to input text, or if you switch from profile to landscape view.

Black93300ZX said:
Yeah, that's what I've heard... Someone once told me it only displays on half screen if you try to input text, or if you switch from profile to landscape view.
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LOL, well guess who i heard all of this off of..i wonder?

Black93300ZX said:
Yeah, that's what I've heard... Someone once told me it only displays on half screen if you try to input text, or if you switch from profile to landscape view.
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Click to collapse
no no he solved that problem
if you start it in landscape its fine
but if you slide it either way while its running it messes up
im just hoping a vga version comes out by the time the phone is out
but he said it still looks great on the screen
but ya on my 8525 just having wmp open and anything else stutters im gona love the new one

kareem9nba said:
Well, there's way more RAM/ROM. The Raphael also has GPS, 5 row keyboard, VGA 2.8 screen, and a much better camera. There's a lot more but that's just the giss of things.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's gist

Mrjasjam said:
Does the faster processor and more memory actually translate into better performance in reality?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
More memory, compared to the Mogul, will be the biggest factor. TouchFlo probably hurts speed some

Well I've got them both fully loaded with my usual stuff at the moment.
Hermes - 20MB RAM, 45MB Storage (most apps installed on card, would be about 10MB tops) free
Diamond - 135MB RAM, 222MB Storage free.
So no more constantly shifting apps & files to the card to keep memory clear, programs should hopefully stay loaded instead of being auo closed to free memory.
The screen, as expected is in a totally different league. Anyone who says VGA doesn't matter on such a small screen either has never used one, or has poor eyesight.
Size-wise I was worried about it being bigger than the Diamond, but fact is, it's still 35% smaller than the Hermes, so feels great in both hand and pocket. It's a little lighter but that's not too noticable. It feels a lot more solid, too.
Even after 2 years of tweaking, customising, and getting the Hermes to meet my needs as much as I can, the Touch Pro still feels a whole lot more polished and professional, even with the barely-tweaked base ROM.
Battery-wise, it's too early to tell. Ive barely had it 24 hours, but after a morning of texting, email, wifi, 3G, and an hour or so of GPS, 6 hous later it looks like I'm down to about 2/3. I wish this thing had proper battery percentages, though.
Only current issues:
-I need to find out how to turn that damn autocorrect bar off. Checked every option I can find. Time to go forum searching (hear that, any reading noobs? This forum has SEARCH!)
-Find a way to replace the scrollwheel.
Absolutely a worth upgrade though, and so far, it's everything I thought it would be.

Didnt know what was gonna be next on the purchase list but I skipped the Kaiser since I couldnt justify another LARGE purchase after a years worth of Hermes, Raph is definatly on the cards when i get home (23rd August) so am glad somebody made this thread

Count me in too. I've had the Wizard and Hermes, but skipped the Kaiser. The VGA screen alone should be worth the upgrade for us!

I had all sorts problems trying to view facebook on opera mobile on the Hermes - tried several new betas of opera 9 as they came out but never did have any luck. It kept either crashing completely or coming up with out of memory errors. In the end I gave up and went to opera mini.
No such issues with the Touch Pro though, opera mobile runs very smoothly on it.

I would rather compare Raphael with Kaiser.
I owns TYTN and Kaiser so do not have plan or budget to upgrade it at the pricing peak. You know wm7 and android mobile are coming out in the end of next year so..I love raphael a lot but might just wait for a reasonable price.

mr_Ray said:
Only current issues:
-I need to find out how to turn that damn autocorrect bar off. Checked every option I can find. Time to go forum searching (hear that, any reading noobs? This forum has SEARCH!)
-Find a way to replace the scrollwheel.
Absolutely a worth upgrade though, and so far, it's everything I thought it would be.
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Click to collapse
Same issues and impressions here, + I still need to get used to lack of button and Touchflo 3D instead. It's sometimes confusing, like when using the WM background that eventually need a stylus.

-I need to find out how to turn that damn autocorrect bar off. Checked every option I can find. Time to go forum searching (hear that, any reading noobs? This forum has SEARCH!)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I turned it off by using the on-screen keyboard, which has a button for "ABC/T9". Switch it to ABC and the T9 predictive text (autocorrect) is turned off. Worked a treat for me. I (accidentally) found this option early on, so I don't know if there's another way of doing it (there probably is).

Incarniac said:
I turned it off by using the on-screen keyboard, which has a button for "ABC/T9". Switch it to ABC and the T9 predictive text (autocorrect) is turned off. Worked a treat for me. I (accidentally) found this option early on, so I don't know if there's another way of doing it (there probably is).
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Click to collapse
Well I spent about an hour poking around in the registry when I accidentally found it too. Thanks for putting the info up for everyone else, too.
Who the hell thought that POS was a good idea anyway? It's the worst thing I've ever seen on a Windows Mobile device, and I've seen some real crud.

For those who have a Touch Pro and have had a Hermes please share with us your thoughts on speed, use of keyboard, reception, battery and anything else you care to mention.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I come from an (Orange SPV M3100) TyTN (Hermes) to a (HTC) Touch Pro (Raphael), and so far I'd say just about everything about the phone is better:
- Size: The Raphael is smaller; when compared side by side it doesn't look like by a lot, but it's very noticeable in the hand and in the pocket.
- Weight: The Raphael felt slightly heavier in my hand than the Hermes, but to me this is nothing bad (I'd argue it feels 'better' in the hand, combined with the smaller size).
- General feel: It sits better in the hand hand the Hermes (size playing in again).
- Look: TouchFLO3D looks sweet.
- Speed: Generally faster, overall no complaints (TF3D sometimes is a bit sluggish, for no apparent reason, haven't tracked it down or done any troubleshooting, it's only happened twice).
- Battery: A bit early for me to compare, I'd say at least as good. The Hermes didn't have GPS of course.
- Reception seem about the same for me.
- Keyboard: Took a little getting used to (buttons are a little smaller and feel a little different), but once you are, it's great. Five rows and a near-full QWERTY keyboard helps a lot too. The spring loading is totally awesome
- Input methods: The on-screen keyboard options are also very good and a lot better than the on-screen options on the Hermes.
- Touch: The phone is generally much better designed for using your fingers on the screen. This has a lot to do with it not being recessed into the case. This combined with better on-screen input methods means I'm using the screen without the stylus a lot more, which again means I'm able to operate it one-handed better than the Hermes. A big plus.
- Screen: Well, what can I say. The VGA screen is just brilliant.
That's all good, right? Yep, so far, so good, but hey, I've only had it a few days
The most annoying thing for me was the backlight not coming fully on when attempting to unlock the screen - this made the screen impossible to read outdoors in almost any kind of light when trying to unlock. I'm using S2U2 which does what I want and fits my usage pattern (set it up to lock on backlight off and on, and I've always been in the habit of pressing the power button to turn of the screen when finishing anything).
Edit: I stand corrected in that the backlight is adjustable for when the device is locked: Start -> Settings -> Power -> Backlight
The second most annoying thing is that since using it one-handed a lot more than the Hermes, it can be tricky to hit the correct buttons/areas that are close to the screen edges with your fingers - including the on-screen keyboards. Sometimes random stuff happens as a result of such attempts
Another thing is the auto correction. The auto correct feature of the Raphael is T9 predictive text. For my usage, which means using a QWERTY keyboard (slide-out or on-screen), T9 makes absolutely no sense (if you use on-screen phone keypad then I can see that it might be useful, as on 'normal' phones, but when using a keyboard it needs to work differently). The Hermes had a (limited) sort of auto correction, but the way it worked seemed to make more sense to me. Don't get me wrong, it could be improved a lot.
I do miss an "OK" button on the slide-out keyboard to confirm/close applications without having to press the screen. For that matter, the "OK" button on the front of the Hermes was useful too, although with the Raphael you're clearly meant to operate it using the fingers on the screen. The only tricky bit is that "OK" is in the top right corner, making it a bit hard to hit (correctly) with your fingers.

Tilt vs. Fuze

Well, for those that have owned both, think it's worth the upgrade/change from a tilt to a fuze?

I only got Fuze because I broke my Tilt. If Tilt was still working I don't think I would have upgraded for $500 (full price since I did not use my upgrade)
If there was a Black Friday sale and Fuze was $150~$200, then I would have upgraded even if I had Titl just for the VGA screen.
With the VGA screen I can use LogMeIn and access servers and computers I manage from anywhere.
It was possible with QVGA as well but it was very hard to get around the screen.

Same boat. I lost my Tilt 2 weeks ago and needed a new phone. I only paid 350 because I was due for a new contract.
I like the Fuze but there are a few items I liked on my Tilt.
1. I miss all the buttons. I am slowly getting used to TouchFlo but I REALLY used Start menu, cammera and Email buttons a lot.
2. I keep trying to Tilt my Fuze I guess I miss that too.
3. Biggest one for me - The Fuze REALLY does attract finger prints. I have to keep a silk cloth with me at all times.
4. Having problems with tethering. I think I have it resolved though.
5. Windows Live doesn't seem to work very well and I use it for hotmail.
Now- Things that I like-
1. Form factor is great!
2. VGA screen is great.
3. Software that comes bundled is pretty decent.
4. Flush screen does make touch more usefull
5. BIGGEST item for me is you can now add device as mass storage and copy files (mp3s) over quickly without using active synch.
6. The FM radio (once enabled) is pretty cool. Pretty good quality.
In my opinion it is a great phone, I like it more every day. I will admit the first few hours I wish I had purchased another Tilt. Slowly, I am convinced I made the right decision to upgrade.

From a dev/hardware point of view:
the Good:
a high dpi, true transflective screen (instead of Kaiser's crappy transmissive) that puts it on par with my Sony VAIO x-brite screen
auto-backlight so you don't have to walk outside and then fumble around a washed out screen to find the brightness controls
backlight nicely fades in and out
working OpenGL-ES drivers that survives suspend
flush screen that makes touch-interface easier to use
higher feedback into the earpiece during phone calls so you can hear how loud you're speaking
storage-mode usb (and it's usb 2.0 high-speed too instead of the fake usb 2.0 full-speed of Kaiser) with menu selection much like SonyEricsson z750
volume setting button that works more smoothly
much nicer (iPhone-like) phone UI
magnetic stylus holder so it's harder to fling/lose it
the Bad:
missing a lot of useful controls such as camera, scroll-wheel, windows key
smart-touch (circle scrolling) doesn't work with most apps, nor even the OS menus so gimmicky
smart-touch zooming with Opera is pretty bad because zoom resolves too slowly
auto-rotation of screen by accelerometer gimmicky and can't be disabled esp if you want to read while lying down
Java (jbed) still BROKEN (since the WM6.1 update) where it gets confused if it's the active app or not and you have to bounce between Today and Java before java starts responding to touch/buttons again
D3D is still shipped with illegal and broken test-rig driver. Have to apply d3d_ati.dll patch to get it decently working (affects Opera since it uses DirectDraw).
still ships with .NETCF 2.0. Have to update to 3.5 and apply .net configurator before Schap's Advanced Config 3.3 will work.
HSDPA forced off. Need a new variation of KaiserSimFix to fix it so it survives soft-reset.
keyboard is a bit cramped compared to Kaiser, but you got a lot more fn-less keys
auto-backlight doesn't range down to the lowest backlight level so too bright in a dark room
GPS is broken is some way (without fiddling with TeleNav) so that AGPS just causes multiple gps-disconnects, and agps-less locks take something like 2-3 minutes longer than Kaiser
finger-print magnet
eats a lot more ram (90M+B resident instead of Kaiser's 40MB+)
24 resident apps running all the time and very close to the 32 limit of wince
This is basically the "Kaiser" that should've been released last year instead of that huge foobar the Kaiser is.

I will have mine within a few hours. It got delivered to my door at noon and I am excited to see what it has in store..... I will also try and comment on the two.

I'm not sold yet. I got the Fuze on Monday, I agree with you and espically the fingerpring magnet. WEW... I'm now playing around with my Tilt and trying to decide. I have so many acces. for my Tilt. And I don't see that much of a difference between the 2 of them as far as programs. I love the build of the Tilt, far better then the Fuze, and I still have 8 months on my warranty for the Tilt, Just got in July. And using TF2 it's pretty much the same. Well decide.

For me, I had a custom rom on the Tilt w/ TF2D and I have a custom rom on the Fuze w/ TF3D. The Fuze is much smoother interface, faster, the eye candy is amusing, programs launch faster.
Also, contrary to what I've been reading, my GPS locks on extremely fast with Google Maps but will not work at all with Live Search. In GM it locks in in under 5 seconds, on like 9 satellites.
Oh yea, and my Tilt broke but I was eligible for an upgrade so I bought another one on 10/17, and returned it within my 30 days and paid the $50 difference to get the Fuze.

My GPS seems to lock pretty quick as well with google maps but have not tried live. I just recently ordered a Zagg invisible shield which should solve the fingerprint issue. But overall it's seems faster then my tilt all around and am pretty happy I switched although I paid full price since I wasted my upgrade on an iPhone.

I got my Fuze for $300, and sold my Tilt for $250, so it was a no brainer. So far, I have many more pros than cons. The screen resolution alone was worth the upgrade.
Speed and response seem about the same as my tilt (I had a hyperdragon rom w/manilla)
Touchflo 3D is pretty spiffy, but not that much better than manilla 2d on the tilt. I like that the Fuze is smaller, and feels much more sturdy, also the screen is flush so no more trapped dirt around the screen edges. Everyone cries about the fingerprints, but you can easily wipe the phone off, its not that big of deal.
I'm still getting used to the new keyboard, but I do like it better.
The fact that there are less buttons on the Fuze is a bummer, but not a deal breaker. I do actually miss the screen tilt, and the solid back plate. If your typing on the keyboard while the phone is laying on a table it tends to rock back and forth.
I had no problems using the GPS with Live search. The fact that there is a ton of ATT crapware on the phone can be fixed with a ROM flash later on.
The G-sensor is fun to play with, but so far really not very usefull.
I haven't tried much testing yet, but so far video playback seems much better.
Overall I would say I'm happy I got the Fuze, and I don't miss my Tilt.

NuShrike said:
From a dev/hardware point of view:
D3D is still shipped with illegal and broken test-rig driver. Have to apply d3d_ati.dll patch to get it decently working (affects Opera since it uses DirectDraw).
[/LIST]
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I've tried that patch and I see no diference in Opera/OS landscape mode. Same poor redraw (videos).

Just got my fuze... Looks great, except I miss the "tilt" and scroll wheel of the tilt. But the advantages of the fuze are too great and many (Besides, may still get the Omnia with the vga screen from Korea.). PLUS, after only 1 years worth of use, the fake chrome on the buttons is wearing off. Or else I'd get a new tilt for my daughter-- she loves the tilting screen, and doesn't care about the "extras".

So after a full day of use I would agree that the Fuze is a better phone. I still have the crappy AT&T bloatware on it still, but like the performance over the tilt. The graphics are superior, and has more opportunity than the tilt. My only issues(that will take time to get used to):
-navigation buttons
-volume up/down on the side. When you try to increase it, it tries to slide the keyboard open.
-Fingerprint magnet, but just wipe it off on my shirt.
Other than those small issues, this phone is far superior in my mind and is worth the upgrade.

Avyer said:
Well, for those that have owned both, think it's worth the upgrade/change from a tilt to a fuze?
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Click to collapse
I strongly suggest the upgrade.. It's better to get used to the Fuze before other similar HTC Phones come out. (YES, THERE IS LEARNING CURVE.. I've owned my Fuze for 3 days now and I'm so glad i got rid of it)
I'm not sure about you, but the biggest factor that killed it for me on the Tilt was it's vga video card
The Fuze's VGA is Excellent.. It's like it has a mini HD 2400 XT video card in it.. It's very crisp and something I did not expect. Touch Flo is awesome, better than an IPhone 3G's touch screen. Get it as soon as possible

Come on, the Fuze touchscreen or any other is not better than the iphone. I've tried my share of touchscreens. Apple has that nailed. That being said I think the Fuze is a nice upgrade over the Tilt.

The screen is nice but so far I'm not wow-ed enough by it to convince me to keep the Fuze over the Tilt.
I miss the easier to use slideout keyboard of the Tilt. The Fuze buttons are smaller and placed strangely...why put the FN immediately to the left of the A? Stupid.
No soft keys. No camera key. Had to remap the Home button to NOT go to the today screen but instead do Windows Start. Hated the bloatware. Hate TouchFlo. Immediately removed all that crap to make the Fuze more useable. Don't like Opera and with the AT&T customizations, it defaults to Opera over PIE...yuck.

sp44 said:
Come on, the Fuze touchscreen or any other is not better than the iphone. I've tried my share of touchscreens. Apple has that nailed. That being said I think the Fuze is a nice upgrade over the Tilt.
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Totally agree, I've had the Iphone and my Partner has the 3G Iphone, can't touch the Touch Screen on the Iphone, shame it's more for fun then work. LOL

sp44 said:
Come on, the Fuze touchscreen or any other is not better than the iphone. I've tried my share of touchscreens. Apple has that nailed. That being said I think the Fuze is a nice upgrade over the Tilt.
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Click to collapse
I don't miss my iPhone touchscreen at all. The multi-touch functionality of the iPhone screen was nice but the only thing I ever used it for was zooming in and out of webpages and the scrollwheel of the Fuze is a nice replacement for that functionality.
And I'm frequently using my phone outside in cold weather so being able to use the touchscreen with gloves on and/or use a stylus makes the Fuze screen superior IMO. Plus, with the Fuze I can edit the registry to adjsut the touch sensitivity and I don't think you can do that with the iPhone.

trjons said:
The screen is nice but so far I'm not wow-ed enough by it to convince me to keep the Fuze over the Tilt.
I miss the easier to use slideout keyboard of the Tilt. The Fuze buttons are smaller and placed strangely...why put the FN immediately to the left of the A? Stupid.
No soft keys. No camera key. Had to remap the Home button to NOT go to the today screen but instead do Windows Start. Hated the bloatware. Hate TouchFlo. Immediately removed all that crap to make the Fuze more useable. Don't like Opera and with the AT&T customizations, it defaults to Opera over PIE...yuck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree. I've had mine since Monday, and have finally decided just not good enough over the Tilt, espically as I have 8 months left on the warranty and all the asscs I have brought for it.. I've gotten to really enjoy TF2 and I feel the Fuze is not as fast as the Tilt. Just my opion. There's a phone and mine is the Tilt. After all the sleep I lost over the Fuze and now I'm taking it back. LOL well unless someone wants it for 300.00.
Beachboyde

trjons said:
The screen is nice but so far I'm not wow-ed enough by it to convince me to keep the Fuze over the Tilt.
I miss the easier to use slideout keyboard of the Tilt. The Fuze buttons are smaller and placed strangely...why put the FN immediately to the left of the A? Stupid.
No soft keys. No camera key. Had to remap the Home button to NOT go to the today screen but instead do Windows Start. Hated the bloatware. Hate TouchFlo. Immediately removed all that crap to make the Fuze more useable. Don't like Opera and with the AT&T customizations, it defaults to Opera over PIE...yuck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yikes, sounds like someone needs an old Palm device J/k, to each their own.
I have had the Fuze for a half day and want to put it through it's 30 days before deciding but so far I love it. Can't really judge battery life cause it hasn't left my had for about 5 hours and is down to 30% but in a normal day my Tilt never saw that usage either so we'll see.

beachboyde
i'll buy if you'll ship it to Europe

Another "minor" Fuze review

K. I had it for about 7 days now.
I was one of those people who couldn't wait to get the Touch Pro. I just couldn't bring myself to order it. I use T-Mobile. I desided to try ATT again. Last year I got drops. This time around with the Fuze, I get average. Some places I drop to Edge. And some places I go tend to be 1-2 bars.
I ran some speed tests and it hits 600+KB/sec. One Edge its about 100+KB/sec. But I swear I don't see much difference on loading websites between the two..
I love the hires screen! I missed it so much since I used Windows PDA with the hi-res screens for years. Only drawback is the phones screen is much smaller than the PDAs I used that had 3-4inch screens. And yes, some things come out too small because it's not optimised for VGA. I would still ALWAYS recomend VGA versus a low res screen.
I didn't flash the rom/radio. The unit seems to work just fine for the most part. I see sometimes for no reason, if I open folder, it doesn't "pop" open. But its liveable.
GPS. Same issue as most people. I get GPS lag. When trying it with igo or TomTom, I seem to be about 3cars to a 1/2 block back of where I really am. The Tilt didn't have this issue.
It comes with Microsoft voice. Too bad its not 100% working when you get it. But I got a hack to work so it'll say the incoming caller. This program makes the WM OS better than the IPhone and G1 if you ask me. I love being able to leave the phone in my pocket, hit my BT headset and ask my phone what's my battery life, what's my signal strength, what's my appointments, whats the date or time. Nice feature. And how many phones you know that you can say "Dial 123-4567" and it'll get it right more times then wrong? Or say, "Call sam smith" and it'll ask you if you want to call his Mobile, Home, or Work? Then dial it when you say "home".
The unit back cover squeaks. Can't be perfect. The size is right. I'm the type that always wants a larger battery. Even at the cost of making the unit a bit larger. Battery life seems ok. I can't judge it yet as I keep playing with the unit so I know the battery is draining faster.
I can't stand the PPT button, but then the Tilt had it too. I don't think XDA site found a simple fix to use the button for something else. To bad, I have my Tilt PPT setup to opening my Calc and long hold for Voice Command.
I don't have any issues with the touch button or pushing up/down/left or right. I miss the thumbwheel my Tilt has.
Auto screen rotation is neat, but since so much stuff doesn't use it, it's more gimmick than something useful.
Opera is neat. Works well.
I miss my indicator lights for BT or if my phone was on. Some didn't like those lights as it was bright on the Tilt.
I'll update this more as more things cross my mind.
For the price, I think its worth it. Am I gonna keep it? I have it unlocked, but T-Mobile is BAD on this phone compaired to my Tilt. At work, I get 1 to drop connections if I use T-Mobile on the Fuze. So I'm not sure if I'll keep it.
Pricing is a big part on if I keep the phone. T-Mobile is $59.99+$19.99 data. And ATT is $59.99+$30 for data. Because I'm still in an area where I hit Edge, I'm not sure if being stuck on a 2-year contract is worth the phone...
I wonder if I want to spend $$ on the X1. Aww no voice command on that one.

Nice mini review. So do you like the Fuze better than the Tilt? I have the Tilt rite now and thinking about making the change....

FYI, a hack has been found and the PTT button can be set to whatever you want (press as well as press and hold).
-Mc

Video to remap your PTT
For PTT, Fuzemobility put up a video (http://www.fuzemobility.com/?p=598) and gives credit to the two xda threads that have the information (Black93300ZX and Proto732)
My battery also doesn't last more than a day if I do a good amount of surfing or GPS. I'd like to test how long my battery lasts on standby without touching the phone, but I haven't been able to keep my hands off of the phone these last few days.
I'm loving Microsoft Voice Commander as well. That was a nice little hidden feature that I didn't expect. I find myself launching apps all the time without looking at the phone (e.g. When I'm at a stoplight in my car, I don't need to look at my phone to "Open QuickGPS", "Open Google Maps").
Although I'm sure a lot of the board regulars are already jaded with it, haha

starstreak said:
Auto screen rotation is neat, but since so much stuff doesn't use it, it's more gimmick than something useful.
Opera is neat. Works well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, I am very jealous
I can't afford my new Fuze until next month.
But, I have been doing ALOT of reading up on it, so I will be well prepared when I am able to get it.
As far as the screen rotation, a program called Gyrator will enable the accelerometer to work in many/all programs (except I think it won't work in Manilla).
Anyway, hope this helps.
PS: My birthday is Friday, so if you hate your Fuze too much, you can send it my way

cincy1020 said:
First of all, I am very jealous
I can't afford my new Fuze until next month.
But, I have been doing ALOT of reading up on it, so I will be well prepared when I am able to get it.
As far as the screen rotation, a program called Gyrator will enable the accelerometer to work in many/all programs (except I think it won't work in Manilla).
Anyway, hope this helps.
PS: My birthday is Friday, so if you hate your Fuze too much, you can send it my way
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gyrator needs lots of messing with. Yes it does rotate Manilla, you need to disable that lol. It took me a while to mess with Gyrator's sensitivity to get it just right. Btw, my bday is tomorrow <3

hipertec- I think it would be a good upgrade if you're not paying 400+ for it.
And for the rest, thanks for the PTT info, I'll check it out once I figure out why my BT headset quit hearing incoming calls when I answer via the headset.

starstreak said:
K. I had it for about 7 days now.
I was one of those people who couldn't wait to get the Touch Pro. I just couldn't bring myself to order it. I use T-Mobile. I desided to try ATT again. Last year I got drops. This time around with the Fuze, I get average. Some places I drop to Edge. And some places I go tend to be 1-2 bars.
I ran some speed tests and it hits 600+KB/sec. One Edge its about 100+KB/sec. But I swear I don't see much difference on loading websites between the two..
I love the hires screen! I missed it so much since I used Windows PDA with the hi-res screens for years. Only drawback is the phones screen is much smaller than the PDAs I used that had 3-4inch screens. And yes, some things come out too small because it's not optimised for VGA. I would still ALWAYS recomend VGA versus a low res screen.
I didn't flash the rom/radio. The unit seems to work just fine for the most part. I see sometimes for no reason, if I open folder, it doesn't "pop" open. But its liveable.
GPS. Same issue as most people. I get GPS lag. When trying it with igo or TomTom, I seem to be about 3cars to a 1/2 block back of where I really am. The Tilt didn't have this issue.
It comes with Microsoft voice. Too bad its not 100% working when you get it. But I got a hack to work so it'll say the incoming caller. This program makes the WM OS better than the IPhone and G1 if you ask me. I love being able to leave the phone in my pocket, hit my BT headset and ask my phone what's my battery life, what's my signal strength, what's my appointments, whats the date or time. Nice feature. And how many phones you know that you can say "Dial 123-4567" and it'll get it right more times then wrong? Or say, "Call sam smith" and it'll ask you if you want to call his Mobile, Home, or Work? Then dial it when you say "home".
The unit back cover squeaks. Can't be perfect. The size is right. I'm the type that always wants a larger battery. Even at the cost of making the unit a bit larger. Battery life seems ok. I can't judge it yet as I keep playing with the unit so I know the battery is draining faster.
I can't stand the PPT button, but then the Tilt had it too. I don't think XDA site found a simple fix to use the button for something else. To bad, I have my Tilt PPT setup to opening my Calc and long hold for Voice Command.
I don't have any issues with the touch button or pushing up/down/left or right. I miss the thumbwheel my Tilt has.
Auto screen rotation is neat, but since so much stuff doesn't use it, it's more gimmick than something useful.
Opera is neat. Works well.
I miss my indicator lights for BT or if my phone was on. Some didn't like those lights as it was bright on the Tilt.
I'll update this more as more things cross my mind.
For the price, I think its worth it. Am I gonna keep it? I have it unlocked, but T-Mobile is BAD on this phone compaired to my Tilt. At work, I get 1 to drop connections if I use T-Mobile on the Fuze. So I'm not sure if I'll keep it.
Pricing is a big part on if I keep the phone. T-Mobile is $59.99+$19.99 data. And ATT is $59.99+$30 for data. Because I'm still in an area where I hit Edge, I'm not sure if being stuck on a 2-year contract is worth the phone...
I wonder if I want to spend $$ on the X1. Aww no voice command on that one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
go to www.fuzemobility.com and they have redirect the PTT button articale on there.

If you upgraded from Hermes or Kaiser, how happy are you?

I have been pretty satisfied with my Hermes (had it just about 2 years now!)
I am wondering for those that also came from that device or from a Kaiser, how do you like the Touch Pro in comparison? I'm eligible for an upgrade but don't know if this is the phone to get or not....i thought it was, but have been reading some less than great threads so i just wanted some comments from people who went through a comparable situation. Thanks!

it was the best move i ever made, only thing is the bat life could be better.

After the tweaks, pretty happy.
Only issue(s) I have remaining are:
Voice Command/Bluetooth...If incoming announcements are on, the phone
sort of rings once, sort of announces, but when you answer, the other party
can hear you, but you cannot hear them, you have to switch the call to the
phone, power off the headset, and power it back on.
GPS slow. GPS is a little quirky at times. Once in a while it fails to lock, but
if you run the HTC test tool for the GPS, it fires right up.
Battery isn't an issue for me, I'm one of those if it is below 2 bars, it goes
on the charger, and, sometimes I use a remote control program because I have
a friend that would rather text than talk on the phone, so it is easier than using the keyboard or stylus to send SMS.
Touchflo3D could use a little tweaking, which has been done, and looks like it is getting better and better.
I don't "play games/videos/MP3s" on my phone, so I can't help you on that
part, but the screen is improved, keyboard is improved, camera is MUCH
faster.
About the only thing I miss is the tilt for the screen.

I would say the main thing to keep in mind is the TouchPro isn't really an upgrade to the Hermes or Kaiser. Its a whole new style of phone that takes some getting used to. The main similarity is of course the keyboard. The biggest change is the lack of hardware buttons. Gone are the softkeys, you now have to touch the screen. Gone is the messaging & IE buttons. The worst part is the messaging button, you now cannot just keep clicking this button to scroll through all your email/sms/mms accounts. There is no longer a dedicated start menu button, you have to touch the screen to launch the start menu. Its been replaced with a "home" button, which to me is useless. As on the old phones I could hit start 2x and go home. Gone is the scroll wheel on the side. Its been replaced with 2 volume buttons, which I never use because I keep my phone on maximum volume. There is no dedicated camera button. There is no dedicated Comm Manager button.
So personally I hate to see the iPhone trend influencing HTC phone designs. I like buttons and need buttons. This phone takes some getting used to. It is a good phone still, but could be so much better with more buttons.

copex said:
it was the best move i ever made, only thing is the bat life could be better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. I think the VGA screen brings a real revolution to mobile devices. It's just superior in so many ways to the old displays that I definitely never ever want a device without VGA again.
The biggest minus for me is the faulty GPS implementation. But I still hope that it's not a hardware issue and that it can an will be fixed by some xda-dev sooner or later.

TriAxisFL said:
So personally I hate to see the iPhone trend influencing HTC phone designs. I like buttons and need buttons. This phone takes some getting used to. It is a good phone still, but could be so much better with more buttons.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's true! The home button is extremely useless and I also miss the extra buttons very much. In the first days/weeks it felt like a step backwards to me because where in the past I just had to push an hardware button I now had to push a software butten in best case or even had to navigate somewhere before I could push some softbutton.
But I got used to it and managed to reconfigure the device so that all important functions are now just one (soft)-click away.

i love the device, but i miss the tilt screen... :
and i wish there were more buttons to assign to my own preferences (yes i know there are tools, but it's not as good as with the 'real' buttons...)
i love that the flat screen - you can touch things in the edges very easy now
all in all - i don't regret the upgrade

DeepThought said:
I agree. I think the VGA screen brings a real revolution to mobile devices. It's just superior in so many ways to the old displays that I definitely never ever want a device without VGA again.
The biggest minus for me is the faulty GPS implementation. But I still hope that it's not a hardware issue and that it can an will be fixed by some xda-dev sooner or later.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Da_G is working on such a fix right now. He's using ported GPS drivers from the Blackstone, and it appears to make quite a difference.

NotATreoFan said:
Da_G is working on such a fix right now. He's using ported GPS drivers from the Blackstone, and it appears to make quite a difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great news, thanks for letting me know!
Is there already some thread about his attempts? Or is it currently in the "private beta testing" stage?

I upgraded from the Tilt.
Day1 = I wanted my Tilt back
Missed Tilt Scree
GPS SLOW
Really missed all the bottuns
After a couple of weeks (and of course a cooked ROM) I have to admit I am really happy I upgraded. As others stated the screen resolution is great. Performance seems to be better as well. I still have some gripes ( fingerprint magnet, small keyboard) but I think overall the improvements outweigh the issues. My advise would be to go for it but also make sure you give it time before you judge. If I had to make a return decision in 24 hours I most likely would have returned it for the Tilt. A week or two later and you would have to pry my Fuze out of my cold dead hands!

I want the raphael hardware in a kaiser body.
I think that pretty much sums up my feelings
DeepThought: currently testing out the ported blackstone drivers in my ROM. I'd make cabs but unfortunately windows mobile is paranoid so wont load them They have to be cooked into a ROM for the moment. I'm in the process of uploading the OEM/SYS/ROM from my latest build so chefs can see the changes I made and yoink it if it works.. 40 minutes left on that upload!

I consider it the best phone I've owned if you require a keyboard.
It feels better in the hand than the Kaiser did. I love the flush screen so you can touch edges easily (I missed that after having the Vogue on Sprint). The VGA screen is great.
I don't really miss the hardware buttons. I used a Vogue and it had less buttons than the TP has. On the Kaiser, I didn't really use them anyway. I just use the programs tab in TF3D. I replaced the shortcuts or the PTT button (on the ATT Fuze), so now a short press launches the Comm Manager (to turn on WiFi) and a long press launches the camera.
I haven't really had any GPS issues. It doesn't get a fix indoors usually, where my Kaiser did. It takes a little longer to get a fix outside, and depending on the app I'm using I might have to use the HTC GPS Tool first. I don't have much lag.
I don't really need a hardware keyboard...its nice to have, but I don't do much typing on it and I find myself using the soft keyboard more rather than pulling out the other one. Since the Touch HD (Blackstone) looks thinner, if ATT ever got that phone, I think that might be the ultimate for me since I would rather have a thin device rather than a hardware keyboard.

Not that these things haven't been brought up already but this is my opinion. First off I am happy to have upgraded to the Raphael from the Kaiser. Things that lived up to or exceeded my expectations are the screen, capacitive touch lower region, and TF3D to name a few. The things that need to be worked out are battery life and gps. To a great extent, Lumos and Touchlock Pro have extended my battery life tremendously, but it is still not on par with my Tilt. My major gripe is GPS. I drove around for over an hour with the phone on my lap in clear skies and never locked onto satellites. That is horrible. I am very eager to see what Da_G is cooking up on this front. MY MAJOR GRIPE is fit and finish related. The battery cover for my Fuze is loose and I do not care for the shiny multi-angled design. I am going to buy the regular Touch Pro cover as soon as someone puts up a picture that matches the description. I had the Tilt for over a year and it had excellent design and build. I think they should have carried that over to the Fuze.

DeepThought said:
Great news, thanks for letting me know!
Is there already some thread about his attempts? Or is it currently in the "private beta testing" stage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The thread is actually about fixing MSVC, but he mentions the GPS drivers also.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=445204

I also posted a cab in this thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=426433&page=17
But it doesnt work due to the same driver signing issues with the MSVC fix..

Loving my Fuze, I upgraded from the Tilt. Only concern is the repeatedly mentioned GPS issue which I'm glad to hear that Da_G is working on.

Seems like most everyone is happier with the TP, even if there are still a few things to be desired...i know i too will miss some of the buttons, but that screen does sound delicious
I would bet that all the kinks will get knocked out entirely by early next year and it'll be running like a whole new phone

AT&T Tilt -> HTC Fuze
Best switch ever!! I love everything about the fuze except that its' enter button is too big and it's del button is a bit small =/ I got used to it though.

After proudly using most of the AT&T/Cingular/AT&T HTC devices (Wallaby->Blue Angel->Wizard->Hermes->Kaiser->Raphael), this has been the most exciting upgrade.
The VGA screen is an amazing change. I miss some of the hardware buttons, but the flat touch screen is helping the TouchFlo interface wean me off of the buttons. I also do not miss the tilting screen as much as I thought I would. I do miss not having the scroll wheel on the side, but I am getting used to touch ring.
Performance on the stock ROM was disappointing. I was planning on running the stock ROM for a while before loading a cooked ROM, but after one day, I could not take it anymore. I am now running NATF's 2.2 ROM, and I could not be happier.
So far, I have inspired three upgrades from the Tilt to the Fuze among co-workers.

from a beetle to a Porshe
Raphael is way better than hermes. dome many changes to registry, antena, touchflo 3d, and performance ugrades, to have it running great.

A few questions for FUZE owners

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a new FUZE. Before I do, I was hoping some current owners could answer a few questions for me. I'm not a newbie to smart phones or WinMo, so I do understand some of the limitations of the device. My last phone wasn't a smart phone and I sorely miss not having it.
I was at the local AT&T shop to play with the FUZE in person, and honestly I wasn't at all impressed with the speed or the interface.
The sensitivity of touch was pretty bad, and I really had to push on the screen for it to register my finger. I've read on these boards that the sensitivity can be changed, so my question is, Can it be changed enough to be usable? It was pretty bad in the showroom.
The lag of the device was totally unacceptable to me. I would often not know if a key-press or screen gesture actually worked, and found myself hitting the key multiple times, only to realize it had registered the first time, but was taking forever to respond. I've read here that flashing the ROM and other tweaks improve the lag time, but does it improve it enough? Is there any lag time after using a cooked ROM? I understand that things may lag on occasion, but if there is a lag for most functions, I don't think I could put up with it too long.
Web browsing was a test of patience to say the least. It took a very long time for any page to load, and when it did load, it seemed to render in chunks very slowly. I was often confused if the page was even fully loaded after a minute or two. Is this experience to be expected, or can it be it be fixed?
I may just be confused about the contacts section. Do you have to scroll through each individual contact to get to the one you want? I have a couple hundred contacts in my phone now, and if I need to get to someone who starts with "N", that would take quite a while. I'm sure there is a better way, and I would just need to find out how to do it, but I wanted to ask first, as this could be a huge deal breaker for me.
It took me a while to find the call history on the phone. It seems like it's buried pretty deep. Is there anyway to modify the Touchflo3d icons to point to items I frequently use? I mean really I don't need the AT&T icon there at all, since I'll never use any of those features. I'd much rather have my call history available from the menu. Is this even possible?
I've read a lot of comments about the D-pad. I'm a gamer when on the road, so I need to make sure this phone will be able to handle my gaming needs. I didn't have the opportunity to try any games on it. Is the D-pad really an issue, and if it is, has there been a workaround?
I love the idea of having a touch screen. I need a phone that offers easy to use messaging and email features. I want simple access to my contacts, and easy to use phone functions. I also want a good web browsing experience, access to my MP3 files, and video files, as well as a decent gaming platform. Oh and I do like to tweak my toys. Is this the phone for me, or should I be looking at something different?
I appreciate anyone taking the time to answer any of these questions.

i have a fuze and love it alot. the sensitivity on the touch screen was bad until you change the registry key that controls it and of course a good screen calibration. its set for such a heavy touch. i changed it to ultrasensitive and its like using an iphone now. there are alot of registry keys to increase the performance. its real easy with diamond tf3d config app. best choice is to flash to a new rom though. the oem rom is junked up with so much crap. diamond tf3d conifig will help you change touch flo 3d to your liking. as far as a gaming device the dpad is a difficult thing to use tbh. and with the graphics drivers still not working right its not a good gaming device. in every other context, it is a good phone. it just takes some work to get it there.

Thanks for the input TJOC.
How is the FUZE as a phone? I mean, how easy is it to access your contacts, voice mail, or just make a call?

Best phone I have had. Most of what you point out in your message can be adjusted automatically or via a tweak or registry change. You would like this flexibility on something you own.

its not bad. the call history, calendar, voicemail (only if you have some messages) and contacts are right on the home tab. you can actually change the softkeys on the home tab to do other actions for you too. theres also one tab to the right called people which is a neat flippy interface if you assign pictures. when i go to my people tab it actually crashes touch flo 3d. i have to figure out what i did to make it do that.
i do have to say that for an htc phone it is the best for being a phone. ive used quite a few htc phones and they always have issues like bad signal, and most notably the volume and call quality have been pretty awful. but on the fuze its loud and clear.
that said its still not a phone for everyone. if you use speakerphone alot, then this may not be the phone for you. and alot of people cant handle windows mobile (i always say wm is not for beginners hehe). i would say try out the phone. att will let you take it back if you dont like it. and i wont call you crazy if you say you dont.

The Jack of Clubs said:
that said its still not a phone for everyone. if you use speakerphone alot, then this may not be the phone for you. and alot of people cant handle windows mobile (i always say wm is not for beginners hehe). i would say try out the phone. att will let you take it back if you dont like it. and i wont call you crazy if you say you dont.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Speaker phone not too much an issue for me. I'm familiar with WinMo, so that won't be a problem either, heck I still use my Dell Axim
I think I'm going to take your advice, and just grab one. If I'm not happy I'll exchange it for a Bold or something.

I didnt like the Fuze stock as well but after tweaking it i love it, i would hard reset and then reset it right before it install all the att stuff back, when you get the phone and reinstall touchflo from the software column for raphael. that alone would make your device alot faster and then you can tweak it some mroe to make it even faster...since its your first Winmo phone read up on flashing and other themes or today screen...you can use other UI instead of TF3D just find one that you like. Cheers report back when you get the Fuze.

mfarlo,
I just got my Fuze a few days ago, and am loving it. I had a Cingular 8525 that I modified with new ROMs from this site. I'm looking forward to upgrading my Fuze after I see how it does out of the box.
I got a great deal going through myself when purchasing it. If you're interested in checking out what I can do for you, please let me know.
Joe

i too was unhappy with the fuze when i tested it out in the store, but after reflashing RRE 4.4.5 custom rom this phone is amazing, the signal strength is awesome, call quality is crystal clear for me, and the phone is lightning quick. if you buy a fuze play with it for a few days while you are reading up on flashing a new rom as it is a must with this phone, its like night and day. the phone has been out for a while now and the roms on this site keep getting better and better, you will not be dissapointed if you buy it.

From my experience with 4 Fuze's...Touchscreen sensitivity to a finger is adequate, although the stylus takes considerable pressure, especially at the edges of the screen. 2 of the Fuze's were slightly more sensitive, and two were slightly less, but none have the sensitivity of the older devices with recessed screens.
Sensitivity aside, you have to rely on the responsiveness of everything else, and that sucks for the most part. Performance "tweaks" and screen sensitivity "tweaks", either done manually with a registry editor, or with a program like AdvancedConfig do absolutely nothing. I've spent many hours comparing back and forth and didn't notice a single discernable difference. The device is sluggish no matter what you do to it (aside from flashing ROM's which i'm not doing). Try operating the phone with a song playing in the TouchFlo music player and it will be an exercise of patience. Disabling TouchFlo does speed things up, but that's a poor fix if part of the reason you purchased a Fuze was for TouchFlo (which I did). I'm perplexed by the folks who claim such a speedy device.
The Dpad is absolute garbage. Up/down work fine, left/right works about 80% of the time if you press in a very specific spot to the outside of the touch sensitive ring by a few millimeters. Funny, it takes extreme accuracy to scroll right or left, but 50% of the time when I try to hang up a call by pressing in the extreme lower right corner, it jumps out to the main menu and starts scrolling right with the call still in progress. I've had quite a few "I want to throw the phone as hard as possible" moments with that issue. The quality of the Dpad has varied from device to device, but none of them were anywhere near good. I can't imagine using it for gaming.
Opera loads webpages pretty quick for me. Unfortunately anything that requires touchscreen input like zooming or selecting links doesn't work so well. Generally I double tap 2-3 times before it zooms in or out. I'm not sure if it's a system issue, or a touchscreen problem. Zooming with the touch ring works well, but unfortunately, for me, the page won't reformat and the text won't wrap using the ring. Trying to zoom with the ring to make a link bigger so that it's clickable, results in the page moving and intermittent reloading of the page, then the link moves out of view. The problem is more common on certain pages and less on others.
Reception has been good, but the earpiece speaker issue looks like one that isn't going to get fixed. Even after loading a few alternate audiopara files, the speaker isn't loud enough, and when you do get lucky and call someone who's voice comes in at a higher volume, the speaker distorts. Pressing the sharp edge of the top rim of the phone against your ear, which I find myself doing often, results in soreness after. Fun!
Long term durability seems questionable, and the battery covers on all 4 phones that i've had suffered creakyness along the edges where the cover doesn't sit against the frame of the phone tightly. One even slid side to side everytime the device was handled.
I'm keeping the one I have now, it seems to be the best out of the 4, but still suffers from all of the issues listed above. Of course the keyboard was installed totally crooked, but it's par for the course with HTC. I'll never understand people who say HTC = great build/materials quality. I find it hard to believe i'm the only one who's struck out so many times. Not only with the Fuze, but with a Tilt and an 8525 before it. It's unfortunate that HTC seems to have cornered the market on this particular form factor for Windows Mobile. I would go with Xperia, but now that the metal cases are cracking left and right, I suppose I should pass. Way to go HTC.
One upside, the VGA screen is really nice, big improvement over QVGA.
Good luck.

check out my post at:
http://www.mobilitysite.com/boards/htc-touch-pro-t-fuze/234449-random-thoughts-about-fuze.html
and
http://www.mobilitysite.com/boards/htc-touch-pro-t-fuze/234303-necessary-software-fuze.html

the fuze/touch pro is a love or hate phone. as far as a windows mobile phone i would say this is the best there is. htc will not be out done when it comes to windows mobile phones. and no windows mobile devices have capacitive screens so its not the most brilliant for touch screen but its not bad tbh. good luck with your purchase and hopefully it will be as pleasant of an experience for you as it is for me.
somethings to remember, find a newer build of opera. i had downloaded build 15202 from this site. pages will load faster and theres some tweaks you can do to get 0 mobile websites. theres also a registry entry that will give you a zoom slider which is a nice touch for web pages than relying on the scroll wheel. and if you dont have good volume in a phone call, make a call to the phone and up the volume with the rocker during the call. it sounds weird but you can only adjust the call volume while making a call.

Get The Fuze!!!
After being almost scared away from the Fuze when I handled it in an AT&T store, I quickly went home and checked on XDA to see what could be done about the TERRIBLE performance. I found TONS of options for tweaks, fixes, and ROMs. After a LOT of reading and deliberating, I decided that the RRE HTC Fuze ROMs were for me. I'm currently running RRE v4.4.5SE which is AMAZING!!! My Fuze feels like it runs 1000% faster! It's great!
Get the Fuze; if you don't already know how, read about flashing; flash the RRE Fuze ROM (linked in my signature below), and ENJOY! You WON'T regret it!!!
Best of luck,
NR

I have the Fuze and one of the bad things about it is the battery life, If you are really going to be on the phone alot I'd suggest buying an extra battery lik i did.

Thanks for all the comments, I am now a proud owner of an AT&T FUZE.
First thing I did was remove all the bloatware as described in tyguy's excellent post:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=459335
It looks like I'm going to be spending quite a bit of time tweaking this beast until I get it just the way I want it, but that's the draw for me. I could have grabbed an iPhone and had everything I needed, but where's the fun in that? When I'm done with my tweaks, I'll have a phone custom tailored to suite my needs.

thats what i was thinking. the iphone doesnt need customization partially because you cant customize it to make it your own. the fuze may need alot of work when you take it out of the box but once you got it how you like it, its more made for you then an iphone. thats a downside for some people but ive been having loads of fun tinkering. my brother and my dad bough iphones and i poke at them doing things they cant, divx, tethering, garmin, taking pictures with flash, sending mms. i know theyre jealous because they bought the wrong phone.

Moved to the FUZE from the Tilt and after missing my D-Pad for awhile until I figured out the Fuze's pad, I now miss nothing.
I've had a lot of excellent PDA/Phones over the years, and have been a WinMo guy since PocketPC2000, and the Fuze is just yet another small step closer to the perfect combination device. I just STILL want a bigger screen.
As far as battery life goes, I use it just as hard as my Tilt, and get a bit more life out of the battery. I'm not sure what the huge complaint is, a dead battery at the end of the night is a good day. A phone that goes DAYS on a charge I haven't had since my Motorola V60

i miss the "dpad" from my ppc6700 (htc apache). it had a joystickish thing which worked well. but if im going to say i miss any one thing from that phone it would have to be the keyboard. you will never find a better keyboard on any other phone ever. and thats a challenge.