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Bluetooth GPS - Very Poor Performance!?

Is it just me/my hardware or is GPS over Bluetooth absolutely rubbish!?
I tried a Holux GR-230 unit first but had the usual problems in getting it connected. When I finally did, I was apalled by it's performance, usually failing to get a gps lock at all.
So I ditched it in favour of a Rikaline GPS-6031-X7. It picked up far mor signals and usually obtained a lock almost instantly. However, it's accuracy is very disappointing. Positional accuracy - it's usually ok on a motorway or dual carriageway but at slower speeds, it jumps all over the place, forwards, backwards, in the middle of fields hundreds of yards away - and that's the worst time for it to happen 'cos it's when you slow down for a junction that you actually need it. The second issue is directional accuracy - it often shows me driving sideways as it's so sloooooow to update/recalc the direction.
If this was my first experience of gps, I might be able to forgive it without a benchmark to judge it against. But I've used Navman with an iPaq, a LAM1 unit with my Nokia 9210 and a (cheap) CF device with my Dell Axim and they all performed far, far better! I know that TomTom Navigator 2 isn't the problem as it performed flawlessly on my Axim (PXA255).
So what's going wrong? Is it the bluetooth devices, or the bluetooth technology, or the XDA II? Will O2's bluetooth update improve matters?
I can no longer rely on this and I'm going to have to start taking map backups - something I've never had to do before and really defeats the object.
Any thoughts, experiences, comments, answers?????
Ged.

I think your problem could be the gps receiver.
I am using the Navman 4400 with my XDAII. It took some time and a couple of patches (from this site, thanks guys) to get it to bond via bluetooth, but now it's setup, it works great. It seems to be very accurate and tells me to exit roundabouts just at the correct time.
It's a bit slow to get the initial fix when first switched on (about 2 minutes) but once connected I have no problems.
Is the gps receiver positioned by a heated screen? If so, this will block the signal and produce the problems you describe.

Have you changed your car? Some newer cars have reflective windshields that can cause problems.
Cheers

Thanks guys. I know of both of the issues you describe but I drive a 3 year old clio 172 - no heated/reflective screen. The receiver usually sits on the dash and receives a very strong signal from upwards of 6 sats.
I've now emailed Rikaline too so we'll see what they come up with (if anything).

I am using the Holux GR-230 and it works flawlessly with towas latest patch 1.0.1.2, a very accurate gps based on my own observations with tomtom2.

Hi guys
I have recently received my new XDA II from Orange (know as SPV M1000)
I am using it with the Fortuna Clip On GPS, Tom Tom Navigator and a Jabra 250 headset.
So far I have had no problems with the GPS, it works every time. On a rare ocasion I have to reset the phone to get the head set to work but this is very rare.
Not sure if orange have modified the software but it all seems to work.

I'm beginning to think that it's the XDA that's at fault. I know TTN2 is ok, you guys aren't having any probs with bluetooth gps devices in general, and I'd have to be extremely unlucky to have TWO faulty gps receivers from different manufacturers!
Persuading O2 that it's faulty is another matter though.

i work in the in car navi business and a 3 year old cleo does have a metalic winscreen apart from the hatched area around the rear view mirror (for use with toll tags and other antennas).You will nead a re-radateing antenna mounted externally to get propper reception as the cleo also has a faradays cage effect making radio reception within the cab area very difficult.(they are a ***** to work on)

pinkslayer, shove it in somebody elses car, or slap it on the roof of yours and see how it go's in that location.

Should know my car a bit better really!
I had tried mounting the Holux in front of the rear view mirror but this didn't help so I didn't bother trying the Rikaline. And my wife has a clio too so no point trying it in hers.
So even though I'm locking on to 5-6 sats, it's still not sufficient!? Or is the metallic screen just causing additional latency?

Its not the number of sats, its the strength of the signal received, I have seen 8 sats showing but tomtom wont attempt a route until the signals are strong enough for a lock,

Rikaline GPS-6031-X7
hi all
i use a Rikaline -x7 with TomTom Navigator 2 on my xda ll with the bluetooth pach from
http://bluetooth.i-networx.de/index_e.html
and the update is slow when taking corners (ie the map is slow to turn to the heads up position) or if you come of a motorway/ dual carriageway thats not on the calulated route it will take some time to acknowledge this
but i do not have the problem of it at slower speeds it jumps all over the place
As for accuracy my old tomtom wired gps was better
but the Rikaline-x7 is usable

Thanks peops. I've now tried mounting it on the rear parcel shelf and also stuck it to the shaded area above the rvm but to no avail (even when it was back on the dash this morning, it took 11 minutes to get a fix and another 5 before it could calc direction - cloudy day!). As soon as it's dry enough, I'll mount it outside the car and see how it is.
I don't really want to do down the re-radateing antenna route as the whole point of having portable equipment is that you can use it anywhere and in any vehicle.

Im using the Rikaline GPS 6031-X7 and Im really happy with, no problems at all in fact I think its brilliant............

I'm using the fortuna clipon in a landy with heated windscreen. It doesn't seem to affect the signal (with or without the screen on) and I have to say i was expecting problems with it. It has been the only thing about the whole BT GPS/XDAII setup that I haven't had problems with..
Technology eh!

Does Pretec Compact GPS work with the XDAII BackPack?

Hi.
I already own a Pretec Compact Flash GPS unit from my days with a Toshiba E740 (another story!), has anybody tested this with the BackPack for XDAII?
If it works I will try and get a backpack, otherwise will get a new Bluetooth GPS unit. Prefer to get the backpack though, as it has other benifits.
Thanks
PBman

Good luck getting a backpack HTC doesn't seem much interested in supporting their old customers by making accessories.

I have one backpack and one wifi CF card with my Qtek2020 and all works fine. I think that the GPS CF card works fine too.

Well even if it works in the device I wonder how well a GPS unit will work with the aerial at the bottom... I am right in thinking that the compact flash unit is at the bottom of the backpack.
As for getting one, this is Moscow... if its been released you can normally find it, and if its not been released you will probably still find it
Perhaps I will go bluetooth GPS, and flogthe pretec off on Ebay...

i really doubt that connecting a grps in the buttom should matter much to the signal strength
i mean i can turn my phone upside down and speak just fine
or a HAMM radio antenna for that matter
it's much more about the length of the antenna then how high as in hand held human heigth you put it
if you want to know more search on google about dipol antenna math

But surely if the GPS unit is at the bottom some of the satellite signal will be blocked by the unit and your hands etc. also in a car the aerial would be down into the car and not up high in the windscreen.
Thought GPS needed pretty good line of sight.

not sure about gps
but in general those cm's difference in heigth from the ground should not be that different for radio waves
and your hand should not be able to block that much
i cant claim to know all that much about gps
but i would worry much more about the quality of the gps reciever then the location when the difference is not greater

It depends on the GPS. A lot of the newer ones, like the Bluetooth GPS's, can work through minor obstructions. I saw a review of the Socket Bluetooth GPS and it worked for the tester in his car's glove compartment.

Activate Gps on treo 750v

hi,
It seems that the treo 750v have the MSM6275 Chipset : http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm6275_chipset_solution.jsp
Anyone know how to activate the A-GPS like someone done on the htc tytn ?
thx

The GPS chip in the TyTn doesnt work yet, the GPS chip has no antenna connected to it so you'd have to take it apart and install one(they're still trying to figure out how and where)
It's possible they could get it working on the Treo 750, but we cant flash the Trinity radio(which enables the GPS link) like the TyTn users can(as far as I know)

keep praying for all those GPS things can happen to 750

it is possible to enable GPS on TyTN (you must install Trinity radio with number 11 at the end - e.g. 1.38.00.11 and also use GPS driver which sent [email protected] command), but signal is very weak, and you have no lock, which mean you cannot precisely find your position. even if you solder new antena there is many other soldering, and it is no place inside tytn to do that, to use shielded cable out of faraday cage and also for new GPS antena. easy way is to buy bluetooth adapter, but this is nothing new for you I guess...
this is some threads, if you like it to read it, about GPS on TyTN -
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294113&highlight=startgps - driver
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=291181&highlight=startgps
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=292466&highlight=startgps
MilanoRex said:
The GPS chip in the TyTn doesnt work yet, the GPS chip has no antenna connected to it so you'd have to take it apart and install one(they're still trying to figure out how and where)
It's possible they could get it working on the Treo 750, but we cant flash the Trinity radio(which enables the GPS link) like the TyTn users can(as far as I know)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

It's missing the GPS antenna and other stuff, it would cost too much time and money to get it to work. Consider this closed, it would be cheaper and wiser to just buy a bluetooth GPS unit.

GPS receiver upgrade or to buy Tytn II

Dear All,
before to buy a Tytn II, I'd like to understand if the GPS comes upgraded by the future's ROMs (I think yes) or is necessary a future hardware change ???
P.S.:
I have a Tytn with the GPS Fortuna ClipOn BT, and I don't know is better to change the GPS receiver or buy the new one with GPS included.
Thanks a lot
Ciao ...

ritmia said:
Dear All,
before to buy a Tytn II, I'd like to understand if the GPS comes upgraded by the future's ROMs (I think yes) or is necessary a future hardware change ???
P.S.:
I have a Tytn with the GPS Fortuna ClipOn BT, and I don't know is better to change the GPS receiver or buy the new one with GPS included.
Thanks a lot
Ciao ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Buy the new phone - its worth it. The GPS works fine & the phone has a lot more oomph (CPU memory etc)

Seconded, get the Kaiser and off load your BT gps. My Wizard is now relegated to my wifes car with my old BT gps and that is her SatNav solution. I am well happy just having the Kaiser as the gps works as well if not better, and I only have to carry one device around.

Had a bluetooth GPS unit connected to my AXIM as my GPS system before I bought this phone.
My AXIM crashed, battery died flat dead, so I had to use my phone as backup. Used the built-in GPS with TOMTOM on my Kaiser and it was AWESOME- worked perfectly!
Get this phone you won't need anything to supplement it what-so-ever...

No. The Kaiser built-in GPS chipset can't compare to BT-359 SIRF III. It sees less Satellite; also, many of them are invalid signal, that means these satellites were grey. With the ones are blue, the signal keeps going up and down. Sometimes, for somewhat reasons, Kaiser loose the GPS fix (you see the map turn around) even in the clear view sky, then you loose your current position.
If you're driving in the crowed sky area (e.g NYC), stick with bluetooth GPS SIRF III chipset receiver.
Read more here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339257 I had used the BT-338 then upgraded to BT -359 which is slimmer, sleeker but lack of external antenna connector and less of batt. time life.

i have tomtom - works faster.
tilt gps - far worse. but it works at 95%.

ritmia said:
Dear All,
before to buy a Tytn II, I'd like to understand if the GPS comes upgraded by the future's ROMs (I think yes) or is necessary a future hardware change ???
P.S.:
I have a Tytn with the GPS Fortuna ClipOn BT, and I don't know is better to change the GPS receiver or buy the new one with GPS included.
Thanks a lot
Ciao ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Frankly I doubt the inbuilt GPS is going to be as good as an external one. (I reserve my judgement till my Tytn II arrives. However, your decision should be based on expense too. Do you mind spending out the extra for inbuilt GPS by buying a whole new Smartphone?
If yes then no problem because you can still use an external gps. If you want to keep the cost down get an external one. I bought an i-blue 737. The device cost me 30UKP and it's never ceased to amaze me how good it is. This will pick up 7 satelites anywhere in my home regardless of where I am. No need to go near a window, the acuracy is astounding with WAAS + EGNOs enabled and 115000 baud coms.
As I say I doubt the inbuilt one is going to match this but it probably will be fairly decent.
Disclaimer: this is just my opinion.

Nghiem said:
No. The Kaiser built-in GPS chipset can't compare to BT-359 SIRF III. It sees less Satellite; also, many of them are invalid signal, that means these satellites were grey.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True for the reception quality, but not for the TTFF which is much shorter with the QualCOMM chipset than with a Sirf III (less than 5 seconds in most cases).
The degradation of the signal due to obstruction (when inside a car for example) is virtually identical to a Sirf III chipset.
The only real weakness with the QualCOMM chipset for the time being is that it has major problems getting a fix when moving quickly. I tried several times to get a fix while moving with ~450mph with a clear view to almost all satellites and the QualCOMM has a very hard time to find more than 2-3 useable satellites. Even after 5-10 minutes no useable position can be determined. Moving quickly to get a fix should not be a problem at all for any GPS chipset.
But I have high hopes that those "quirks" will get fixed with a future firmware update.

The Kaiser has an antenna port specifically for the GPS undeneath the battery cover. I don't know if a battery cover can be found that exposed it more gracefully but I imagine with a small antenna would augment the signal nicely.
That being said, without using an external antenna, I'm actually quite impressed with the accuracy. I wouldn't have anything to compare against it but it's always been dead on for me.
I use TomTom 6 but I've played with google maps and Windows Live Search.
I have noticed it can take a long time to get the first lock on occasion, and especially so when driving at speed. Not really a problem for me, as you usually plan where I'm going while the car is stopped.
-James

Since GPS works with as little as 3 sats, and 4 for 3D positioning, why does everyone worry about getting 7 tuned in? Seems a bit anal to me.
The Kaiser GPS IMHO is a tad slow to init, but other than that, it's worth every penny to not have 2 devices to handle at times. I've never had a problem loosing connectivity, so I'm 100% satisfied with the Kaiser. YMMV of course.
Now if HTC would use a decent CMOS sensor in the camera, then I'd call the phone perfect. But that's another thread...

Dear All,
thanks to everybody about the answers ... I think I'll upgrade my GPS receiver (is more cheap). In this moment, I wait other tests about the GPS of Tytn II.
Ciao, ...

scottwilkins said:
Since GPS works with as little as 3 sats, and 4 for 3D positioning, why does everyone worry about getting 7 tuned in?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because the more satellites you are evaluating, the more precise the position gets and in case you lose track of one of the satellites, you will still be shown a valid position.
Adding to that, the RAIM functionality of GPS receivers for an even more precise position while getting rid of most common GPS erros only works with 5 satellites or more.
So, while it's true that you only need 3 satellites for an 2D position, this fix will not be very precise (due to lack of crosschecking with other satellites and typical GPS calculation errors which happen all the time) and you will lose your position as soon as one satellite disappears from your view.
However GPS receivers which can track more than 12 satellites at any given times are useless because there will never more than 12 satellites visible at any specific point of the earth, most of time you can only track and use a maximum of 8 satellites simultaneously.

vacsed said:
I tried several times to get a fix while moving with ~450mph with a clear view to almost all satellites and the QualCOMM has a very hard time to find more than 2-3 useable satellites.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Doesn't your F15 eagle have built in sat nav?

Raphael Antenna Hard Mod

Hi, I am seriously considering making a wifi/GPS antenna hard mod to increase reception for these services. My raphael has about 3x lower reception for both wifi and satelites than my older buddy HTC Artemis and I am really getting pissed, because enhancing the signal through software has its limits.
I wanted to ask if anyone has experiences with this procedure or wifi/gps antennas in general. I don't know which metal to use or whether should I focus on extending the antenna length or make the surface larger.
Here is the disassembly procedure http://translate.google.com/transla...tp://www.pdacenter.ru/razborka/htc-touch-pro/
Here is directly the antenna http://www.pdacenter.ru/images/Touch_Pro-031.jpg
Any input is appreciated, I want to gather as much information as I can before I make the mod. I would not prefer trial and error on this one

before you embark on this ambitious journey, have you tried everything you can do?
1) different Radios/Roms
2) using certain materials to boost the reception? (like those wifi usb external mod/dish aka this
your friend's Artemis uses SiRF III chip, which is one of the best GPS chips... but this chip is separate from other stuff, draws a lot of power
the HTC Touch Pro uses the Qualcomm MSM7201A which integrates GPS, Wifi, GSM, obviously less power sucking and one less chip, and hence gives a little less performance than the SiRF III chip
how about an external BT GPS unit? i have one for my Dell Axim x51v PDA, the BT SiRF III unit has it's own 1300mAh battery that lasts at least 8 hours
can't help you on the WiFi side though... up to you to try to up the antenna, but you are risking your $200+ device, and i don't think there is any place inside the device to place a better antenna (unless you hang it outside, or get the extended battery cover)

I tried everything, radios, hours of registry tweaking and field testing.
Best I can get is cold GPS lock in 2-3 minutes and wifi is stable when I set lower beacon interval in routers. But my artemis can do both much much better without any hacks, don't tell me this is purely Qualcomm issue. I get zero wifi signal on raphael and about half on artemis under same conditions so I believe this is problem with poor antenna rather than chipset/drivers.
External GPS module is not an option and it doesn't solve the wifi signal issues in areas where I don't have admin access to the router/AP.
I am really willing to go through with it once I gather enough info but I will TRY not to do anything destructive to the antenna so that the mod is reversable if it has no effect.

I would not want to try modifying the antenna myself. At these frequencies and antenna size it is more art than science. A seemingly innocent change could render it completely useless and could be irreversible.

ok its not that hard to get a gps lock in 15 secs or so .
first flash NRG's latest rom (mercury 7/29)
second flash this radio http://rapidshare.com/files/220917041/Raph_Radio_1.14.25.05.zip
DO NOT CHANGE RILPHONE.DLL'S the one provided in the rom works best with this radio .
once the rom is up and running do the following:
go to start>gps>quickgps>and click download . it really helps and lasts for a week . if you travel or drastically change in loacation (a couple hundred miles ) where the gps isn't active during that time i reccomend redownloading in the new location .
and finnaly go to start>settings>system>AGPS Settings > and click in the box to enable it . then click ok to exit and try google maps (which is installed in the rom already).
you can find google maps in start>gps if you don't get a lock withing 20 seconds then you should search for either
t-back's agps settings
or
atomang's agps settings
and download the respective cabs .

to add to my previous post i flashed his most recent rom yesterday and just followed my own instructions and got a lock in about 12 to 13 seconds .
note this was a cold start and the first time to use gps on the rom .
the best part is ... im inside my house . so i can't belive how fast it would be outside !

Guess you're lucky to get one of the few working pieces
I don't have data plan so no AGPS for me (I'm in Europe we have wifi everywhere).
Actually I get cold fix in about 3-10s from 5 satellites but the fix is extremely unstable and HDOP is 25-600, tooks 2 minutes to settle down and get stable reading with HDOP < 5. This is all because the satellite signals are very weak, I get like 20-35% of the signal bars most of the time. Artemis rarely drops any satellite below 60%. I get the feeling that raph needs much more satellites to get a precise fix to compensate the poor signal, while artemis can get a stable lock with 4 or 5 sats.
And yeah I have Energy ROM with my own GPS tweaks which get faster lock than NRG's defaults.

wow , you should try the austrailian radio . ive heard it works good outside of the usa
i never hve less then 7 satelites in my area and i also have unlimited data so agps (tbh i didn't even know it used data thx for tellin me lol)
sorry man i can't help you other than what i have said lol .

Well after much consideration I gave up the hard mod and started more research to software approach and I have to say it was a success!
I am getting cold GPS lock in under 30s, warm lock is virtually instant.
Using this setup:
Energy ROM 2.0 b41609
Xperia Radio 1.16.25.48 (needs security unlock first)
1.16.25.48 Rilphone DLL
Took my time with trial and error and made a registry tweak for the GPS driver as well.