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Dear all,
Due to the proliferation of new ROM's, the Wizard forum is in need of a bit of housekeeping. The mods cannot do this alone, so we are asking for your help.
1) The four most used kitchens have been stickied for the moment and questions regarding any ROM's you cook based on these kitchens should be posted in the appropriate thread. Please do not start a separate thread. Anichillus Core Professional kitchen is also found in the Development and Hacking forum since it is used for multiple devices and is beyond the scope of many basic users. Users beware. I may de-sticky the kitchens upon further discussions with the mods, but right now the structure will stand as it is.
2) On the same note, I'm asking for kitchen authors to notify me or other mods concerning useless posts in these threads (e.g. Why didn't you include "x" application? or posts that are inflammatory or non-technical in nature). They will promptly be deleted as we shouldn't have to wade through 20 posts of BS to get to relevant tech info.
3) All of the kitchens stickied are based wholly or in part on Bepe's tools and are of the same basic architecture. Therefore no more kitchens will be stickied unless they are truly unique or offer a substantially more comprehensive interface.
4) Also, it's sometimes better for a lot of people to refine one ROM than for a few people to refine a lot of ROM's. I know there are a thousand aspiring cooks out there right now since the kitchens have been released. You may be tempted to release your own ROM to the masses either because you think it's a great ROM or because you want to be known around the board. Resist the temptation. Unless your ROM offers a very innovative user experience (e.g. Touch), it is not likely to get a huge following and might just cause more confusion for the non-developers on this board, you might do better to try to collaborate with some fellow developers in creating a very good ROM.
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY (and you know who I'm talking to). Some people have repeatedly posted in this forum despite the fact that their posts had nothing to do with Windows Mobile 6 specific issues on the Wizard (i.e "My Herald..." or ("Do you have this software from a Nokia?"). We will issue 3 warnings through PM's but after that you might be up for a temporary ban. This will only happen if you're a repeat offender. Heck we've all posted in the wrong place at one point or another. If possible we may move the post to a more appropriate location but it would save everyone a lot of work and aggravation if the posts are made in the correct forum.
I hope this helps a bit. If you have suggestions for how we can make this place better, please air them here. If you have a complaint with a mod, please PM me first. I don't like public conflict and most of you don't either.
jwzg said:
Dear all,
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY (and you know who I'm talking to)..
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not nice.,...
btw.
upgrade forum to allow people REMOVE own posts/topics, first.
Users can manage, with proper USUAL forum options, too.
smells like we vs. THEM,again,.
"same architecture" - yup, yup, but why i can see potential with new user cook result, and i can't with older builds?
it is random novadays(lack of your knowledge + newbie enthusiasm can make miracles).
I agree that a strong hand is needed. For this i suggest that there should be a special part in the forum where to move threads that have no replies for hmm...30 days ...?
I don't know too much stuff about forums but i think that would mean a nasty job for you guys so...just a suggestion. Or better...delete them or move them to an sort of recycle bin.
Regarding switching to a new upgraded forum, i think that would be an immense hard work also and it will leave the community off line for few days. It may be needed to come to that soon but that's not a big problem.
But i agree that allowing people to delete their own posts would be nice. But on the other hand, considering hours i spent here reading, i kinda got used to this look
I will PM you with posts to delete but beware that i may be more strict than you and i don't want to waste your time...so i will filter myself.
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
nothin said:
not nice.,...
btw.
upgrade forum to allow people REMOVE own posts/topics, first.
Users can manage, with proper USUAL forum options, too.
smells like we vs. THEM,again,.
"same architecture" - yup, yup, but why i can see potential with new user cook result, and i can't with older builds?
it is random novadays(lack of your knowledge + newbie enthusiasm can make miracles).
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You are reading this wrong. I had about four or five posters who after two or three moved threads and a couple of PM's continued to post totally irrelevant posts in the Wizard Mobile 6 thread. I this was aimed at repeat offenders and not at the occasional screwup. By they way, you can modify your post or ask a mod to move it if you like. Not a big deal.
I'm not trying to be a jerk at all, but I'm not trying to be nice either. I just see the same old builds with different package combo's that anyone could make with the kitchen and a little ingenuity. However, folks like Zoki and the-equinoxe have done some fine things with the touch software that are truly innovative and add substance to the user experience. I for one have partially adapted the T-Mobile wing OEM package to the Wizard (yes camera too, but the image is transposed and my-faves doesn't work). That's true ROM cooking and not just throwing a few packages into a cooker and presto.
It is not "us" against them. It's those who have a bit more experience actually doing our best to take this forum up another level instead of settling for ssdd.
shantzg001 said:
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
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I'm working on this...
all the old versions of Roms should be deleted too...like the very first wm6 roms theres no need for them
shantzg001 said:
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
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Fixed by admin. Thanks for the heads up.
ANTC said:
all the old versions of Roms should be deleted too...like the very first wm6 roms theres no need for them
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I disagree. There is history and things that can be found in those threads... Unless XDA-Developers is hurting for space, what is actually removed needs to be really determined that it isn't something that may help. I just did a Google search (I've given up trying to use the search here, easier to use Google's advanced searching techniques in most cases) and found an answer in the original Crossbow thread from January. Just deleting stuff because its "Old" is a bad idea IMO... Getting rid of the hundreds of "Help, I bricked my phone!" threads is even questionable as I wonder how many people have fixed a phone due to those and never posted anything here...
Remember there area a LOT of people that read and never post here. Yeah, it gets old answering the same questions over and over again (so I've taken the route where I've quit answering some of those.
mfrazzz said:
I disagree. There is history and things that can be found in those threads... Unless XDA-Developers is hurting for space, what is actually removed needs to be really determined that it isn't something that may help. I just did a Google search (I've given up trying to use the search here, easier to use Google's advanced searching techniques in most cases) and found an answer in the original Crossbow thread from January. Just deleting stuff because its "Old" is a bad idea IMO... Getting rid of the hundreds of "Help, I bricked my phone!" threads is even questionable as I wonder how many people have fixed a phone due to those and never posted anything here...
Remember there area a LOT of people that read and never post here. Yeah, it gets old answering the same questions over and over again (so I've taken the route where I've quit answering some of those.
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true i guess I worded my statement wrong I ment delete old Rom threads like the different versions of roms...i have no need for my version 1-3.5 beta threads you see what i mean...and I think we should have a bricked phone help thread I even wrote a quick tut on my other site to save a bricked MDA..you understand were im getting at
Gulp - I hope I didn't start something we will all regret with my post "Why all these new WM6 ROMs?" http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=313781
Let us not forget that apart from a very few idiots this is a great place to be. I have learnt a lot from this forum considering that I do not have a background in computing.
It has even stimulated my interest to the extent that I have assembled my own computer. Didn't save me money and my wife cannot understand it but I have ended up with exactly what I wanted which a store built machine could not have given me.
I hope you understand the analogy.
Let's just make sure that "We don't throw out the baby with the bath water".
No, you didn't start anything scotch whiskey that hadn't already been brewing a bit. I think my modified OP is a little nicer, but still gets the point across.
ANTC said:
true i guess I worded my statement wrong I ment delete old Rom threads like the different versions of roms...i have no need for my version 1-3.5 beta threads you see what i mean...and I think we should have a bricked phone help thread I even wrote a quick tut on my other site to save a bricked MDA..you understand were im getting at
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I agree with both you and mfrazzz.
What if someone doesn't want to use the latest version of a ROM, they don't like some changes or whatever, they will need those older threads for reference material. Also I notice lots of people asking questions, only to be referred to older threads. There isn't any use reinventing the wheel so to speak.
I think a good idea would be for developers (or just real supportive people) to make kind of an FAQ for some of these older versions, a "best of" list of questions and answers. It can be posted in the forum, it can be on some website somewhere, or in the XDA FTP, whatever. Not only would it give people a good place to refer to, but it might also eventually lead to a cut-down of basically the same questions.
Only then would I think removing older threads be a good idea. I know that wasn't entirely the point of this thread, but hey, mr smart guy back there decided to take a shot so I am too. I for one am right in there with him, I think its THE MAN against US. Oh yes, yes it is. oh noes. <3
jonflow said:
Only then would I think removing older threads be a good idea. I know that wasn't entirely the point of this thread, but hey, mr smart guy back there decided to take a shot so I am too. I for one am right in there with him, I think its THE MAN against US. Oh yes, yes it is. oh noes. <3
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Guys, it's NOT the man against anyone. We'd just like to get some real development going on here instead of everyone releasing slightly different versions of the same ROM.
I don't like this talk
Everybody should have the right to publish his work, no matter what hi did.
The rest will judge his work and he will learn something. Only those who didn't do anything can't understand this.
Old topics should remain, I like to jump back to learn something, for new members old topics is a must.
If you must do something to show us you're administrator rights, do something good, like option to close the thread.
Zoki, no one said members can't publish their work. I just honestly believe more of it should be along the lines of what you did with the touch stuff. I truly admire your work because it was bleeding edge (still may be) and that's developing which is why this board exists. I'm not trying to flatter you here to gain your support either. It's just when people throw your name all over a splash screen it doesn't really make it their work since most all of the ROM's here are cooked using kitchens from other authors with packages from other members and yes, even HTC. If that sounds big-brother-ish, it's not intended that way. Just make sure credit is given to the quite literally hundreds of people who've made this possible. We're already having problems in other forums right now with people asking for donations in return for tech support for ROM's they've cooked with other's tools. That is one of the many issues we're trying to be proactive about here.
Regarding closing threads, I'm not an administrator, and they have chosen not to give OP's the rights to close their threads. If you want your thread closed, please PM me and I have the rights close it quickly. If you want someone else's thread closed, well, you can request it, but it may or may not happen.
BTW, the old threads were not deleted, and I strongly believe they shouldn't be. Admin simply made a mistake in a setting, and all of the old threads are visible as per our request.
As a mod, I'm just trying to do my best to make sure that we have an orderly forum and we are developing, which is the forum's purpose.
hey jwzg we aren't really calling you a bad person, we know you're looking out for us I agree though, the roms are starting to look the same except for one or two programs, and the splash screens. It would be better for people to just explain what was in a new ROM scheme they came up with, and it would encourage more people to start learning how to make their own ROMs, therefore making them more intellectual in this particular field, which is a good thing. knowledge is power. But hey its just my opinion!
jwzg said:
Guys, it's NOT the man against anyone. We'd just like to get some real development going on here instead of everyone releasing slightly different versions of the same ROM.
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just to let you know that the REAL develepor regrets now releasing the rom kitchen tools....
jonflow said:
the roms are starting to look the same except for one or two programs, and the splash screens.
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sorry i am noone for you all, my "senior" member status sounds like joke but...
everything is the same imo now, also, theres no real help lately; only people that can have answers are like "how to flash my phoooone", "did i brickeeeeed?" etc.
there's no real customisation of "custom" builds.
seems like checking some oempacks' ticks is making these current OSes special...
i can't get an answer for my problems, despite i tend to help people someOM:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=322228
i spent MONTH to make this, and what?
nobody wants to help.
ok, clean this forum up, you may remove my babbling now....
everything i know bout wizard customisation is from that site...but now, in "touch" soft times, there's nothing that makes wizard better, just nothing.
it became playground for kids or what...
sorry for funny english, i cant do better...
i want to say thank you to:
Faria,
Anichillus,
mattk_r
jwzg
double_ofour
zoki
and many many more people that made me ..learning, not copying.
allright, time to watch another touch skin post...
Myself i've been reading most of the time, only lately did i start posting to test some bugs in builds. The issue at hand is a double edged sword. Yes i solved many problems wading through old posts. But i also solved a lot of issues just reading an entire thread. I will never be able to create a kitchen but it sure is nice knowing that when i want to i can build a rom entirely to my liking. But indeed to many Build threads these day are the same. And most of the issues handled, but then spread across multiple build threads, are mostly about the same problems. Mainly issues with specific base roms and aplication incompatibilities. I think a lot of the solving of these issues is slowed down because of the spread through topics. Maybe setting up a rule that Roms that get posted and aren't updated or have any fixes posted should not be taken seriously and can be deleted. This way less Rom versions circulate the thread and only higher quality builds by Chefs are available. Also a good rule might be to have the cooks post more info about the sources and tools used for their builds, like Kitchen used, Base used, Patches used oem packages used. So new users more easily understand that no Rom has no history. It also takes away the polish of parading with your ego. Maybe even changing the main wizard topics into
1. Kitchen Development
2. How To & Troubleshooting
3. Rom Builds testing
4. Custom Made Software & tweaks
5. Hardware and Accesoires
6. To be Deleted (either move topics or delete them when re/placed into new main topics)
Then indeed phase out unneeded old posts if the information is passed into new threads that accordingly aknowledge the sources.
What i'm trying to say is, to change the perception a bit more that this is not a Technical support site and more of a doing site.
I think the main topics can set an expectation and the current ones don't give the impression that flashing is not kids biznz.
Also it looks like there are to many uploads of the same home screens, software etc. (i think even i am quilty of that).
I'm all for a big clean up but with the focus on retaining the history and origin as much as possible even if it means loosing a few classic threads.
You as admin can set the tone and expectation and a clear message should be sent to junior cooks that collaboration is what drives this site.
I have noticed that this forum is beginning to look like HERMES once did. A lot of new people who just got the phone and asks a lot of questions before reading and searching for an answer.
I remember that there was a lot of badmouth in HERMES forum and some of the REAL developers went away due to all those questions asked again and again and then again.
We have all been NEW - and we are not all developers (I am not) but I love this forum and spend lots of time in here reading and becoming clever on my phone.
I am just sorry to see that things are repeated again and again.
The point is. No one has anything against any new people asking questions - BUT PLEASE use the search button first - then READ the proper THREADS, and THEN ask if INFO cannot be found.
REMEMBER - its quite possible that some have had the same problem before.
NOW: Should we have a STICKY thread for NEW guys??? MODS get on track and set some RULES please. (Lets keep it a developers forum where we new guys can become clever)
Martinhdk said:
I have noticed that this forum is beginning to look like HERMES once did. A lot of new people who just got the phone and asks a lot of questions before reading and searching for an answer.
I remember that there was a lot of badmouth in HERMES forum and some of the REAL developers went away due to all those questions asked again and again and then again.
We have all been NEW - and we are not all developers (I am not) but I love this forum and spend lots of time in here reading and becoming clever on my phone.
I am just sorry to see that things are repeated again and again.
The point is. No one has anything against any new people asking questions - BUT PLEASE use the search button first - then READ the proper THREADS, and THEN ask if INFO cannot be found.
REMEMBER - its quite possible that some have had the same problem before.
NOW: Should we have a STICKY thread for NEW guys??? MODS get on track and set some RULES please. (Lets keep it a developers forum where we new guys can become clever)
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Yes SIR Create some rules.I don't want to be a bad guy I am also not so skilled but at list I try to read .I flash for 2 years from this forum (starting with Hermes-TyTn and noe Kaiser-TyTn II) and always I find the answer in some thread on XDA.
Newbe at list think that you can easily brick your devices and forget about warranty if you don't read before.For shure you will find the answear at list 10 times .
Developers keep the good work !!!
Martinhdk said:
I have noticed that this forum is beginning to look like HERMES once did. A lot of new people who just got the phone and asks a lot of questions before reading and searching for an answer.
I remember that there was a lot of badmouth in HERMES forum and some of the REAL developers went away due to all those questions asked again and again and then again.
We have all been NEW - and we are not all developers (I am not) but I love this forum and spend lots of time in here reading and becoming clever on my phone.
I am just sorry to see that things are repeated again and again.
The point is. No one has anything against any new people asking questions - BUT PLEASE use the search button first - then READ the proper THREADS, and THEN ask if INFO cannot be found.
REMEMBER - its quite possible that some have had the same problem before.
NOW: Should we have a STICKY thread for NEW guys??? MODS get on track and set some RULES please. (Lets keep it a developers forum where we new guys can become clever)
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Not to be rude but have you searched yourself? There is already like few threads addressing this same concern. It does not matter how many threads/sections we create, n00bs will always ask the questions again.
*ggggg* ---> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=356895
If you have some ideas to add there, just PM me. ^^
In my humble opinion....
WARNING.... Long messge ahead....
Since day one of reading this and other "groups" I've thought how chaotic and difficult it is to be involved in this. Speaking from an engineering perspective, the problems discussed on this board may be difficult to solve, but once solved it shouldn't be difficult for others to find the answers. But it often is!
Yes, the repeated asking of the same question is a problem. But the suggestion in the original message thread won't solve it. Yes, people (and not just newies) will continue to repeat the already answered questions.
So let's take the original question (with a little editorial license)
How to make it easy to find answers to problems/questions after the discussion is over?
And how about this one to make it easy for the developers as well.
How to make it easy to get the latest information on custom cooked ROMs and other software such as features, bugs, etc.?
Here's my take on getting to the answer...
1) What are the root causes of the problem?
2) How to solve each one of them direcrly?
3) What's reasonable to get the results you want?
---------------- My thoughts on question 1 ------------------
If I may take a stab at it at a high level...
1) What are the root causes of the problem?
a) Infrastructure - Simplistic and fairly free form tool
b) Mechanisims - almost none, system depends solely on humans following guidelines, monitoring and enforcing guidelines
c) Guidelines - minimum, focused on relavance and "goodwill"
------------------ My thoughts on question 2 ----------------------
2) How to solve each one of them direcrly? (using different examples)
a) Problem: How to make it easy to find answers to problems/questions after the discussion is over?
- Have an infrastructure that supports.....
Question/Problem description:
Discussion:
Answer/Solution:
..... As opposed to what's here now
Question/Problem/Discussion/Answer/Solution in one big thread
b) Problem: How to make it easy to get the latest information on custom cooked ROMs and other software such as features, bugs, etc.?
- Have mechanisms to support versioning, bug tracking, documentation, etc....
Release [naming conventions, date, etc]
Features
Docs
Support [same infrastructure as 2a above]
Bug Tracking
..... As opposed to what's here now
Release announcement/Question/Problem/Discussion/Answer/Solution in one big thread.
c) Guidlines is a tough one because once you get past the "goodwill" stuff you have to find balance between being too rigid and too loose while maximizing effectiveness. A steering group is often used to do this sort of thing. It could be comprised of different interests to help ensure a better outcome.
In the end, I think the solution is either - deal with it the way it is, or make it a forum-wide issue to address.
Well, a solution, like you describe it, could be a hierarchical step by step information system... but... Who'd be able to administrate this? I can't even follow all threads in the Kaiser forum, although i am reading hours every day.
The problem are those, who cannot/don't want to use the search function. But this problem exists everywhere...
And that takes me back to a NUMERO UNO thread about search, rules and so on where a general code of conduct could be present...
Perhaps the real problem is - that we dont write enough info in the WIKI....
Another suggestion: At 4winmobile there was some threads reserved for stuff related to specific subjects (testing and so) and threads reserved for questions and "thank you" stuff.. Perhaps we should make a new SUB FORUM under KAISER related to questions that are NOT related to developement / testing and stuff like that.
Could be KAISER QUESTIONS where every question/discussion is accepted.
In that way we could open the door for all questions and more without any getting irritated with the number of repeated questions.
??
With all do respect (sincerely) it is easy to dismiss, but I think it is still worth discussing/considering.
bmueller77 said:
but... Who'd be able to administrate this? I can't even follow all threads in the Kaiser forum, although i am reading hours every day....
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The answer to your question (at least in my opinion) is if someone (question originator) asks a question and an answer is provided or problem solved, they (question originator) should properly document it per the infrastructure and guidelines provided.
Even with the current freeform system this is doable.
bmueller77 said:
...The problem are those, who cannot/don't want to use the search function.....
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While there is no doubt this happens, I believe it happens much less than commonly thought. Dredging through threads, search after search for someone new is challenging when they often have a hard time forming the question properly, let alone piecing the various technospeak notes.
tomsenna said:
With all do respect (sincerely) it is easy to dismiss, but I think it is still worth discussing/considering.
The answer to your question (at least in my opinion) is if someone (question originator) asks a question and an answer is provided or problem solved, they (question originator) should properly document it per the infrastructure and guidelines provided.
Even with the current freeform system this is doable.
While there is no doubt this happens, I believe it happens much less than commonly thought. Dredging through threads, search after search for someone new is challenging when they often have a hard time forming the question properly, let alone piecing the various technospeak notes.
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Most do not READ or SEARCH... it is becoming a mojor problem... the same posts over adn over... and then the n00ns ge upset when the people helping them point the to a place to read thier answer rather just handing them the answer straight up.... getting help by asking a question is great but save the rest of us from answering the sames questions over and over when there are stickys and WIKIS to help them..... I don't know alot about this but I search and search and when I can answer questions for people.. most of which I do not know the answer to the question but I can search and find it in about 10 seconds........
Just my 2 cents
This is my first post; I could be considered a super newbie.
I just ordered the Tilt and can hardly wait, I am preparing a folder with all the stuff I need to do including Dutty's V4.
The problem with searching for a noob is, you don't know exactly what to search for. This forum is very overwhelming at first with all the different version talk, different lingo, problems, etc. I almost gave up and said screw changing it, I have spent hours upon hours reading here the last few days and I am starting to get it figured out. The problem is it is a little dis-organized, and what would seem to be the most basic and obvious question to you is a stumper to some one like me (it is actually harder to find basic answers then it is to find more technical ones because no one wants to answered the basic ones, thinking that answered is too obvious).
A Newb Board would be perfect, with a few stickies (not the nine million that the other threads have) with the most basic FAQ and guides. From there you can link to the other FAQ or threads.
Questions that I had at first (I ordered a Tilt so they are all based on that):
1) Why do some ROM's have a AT&T Tilt Version, and are these the only ones that will work on my Tilt?-----The Tilt version of ROM's tend to include all of the "bloat" ware that came from AT&T (software trials, etc.).
-----No, you do not have to have a "Tilt" ROM
2) What is the AT&T Tilt missing that other verisons of the "Kaiser" have.
-----AT&T Strips out neat features that come stock on the phone like TouchFlo (an almost iPhone like interface for media) and also includes lots of memory hogging un-needed programs
3)Which ROM should I get?
-----Simply put there is no way to keep this up-to-date enough to answere this question. ROM's are constantly comming out and being updated.
-----Your best bet would be to stick to the most popular ROM's, Dutty's seams to have the most support. You can also look at peoples signatures.
Resources:
--Must Haves:
-----Hard SPL
-----Tilt Keyboard Fix
--Usefull Links (also check stickies)
-----XDA Wiki
-----ROM Flashing FAQ
-----Revert back to Original ROM
-----CHECK THE STICKIES!
If a Newb Board is made I would be more then happy to help create FAQ's/Stickies.
EDIT: I would like to add that the stickies are crazy, way to many replies, what would be good, and an easy solution, would be to split the sticky topics so that the Sticky only has posts from the original auther, he/she can update that sticky with new fixes/updates, and the sticky could contain a link to the discussion thread, that way the sticky stays clean, and every thing can be discussed in a non sticky thread.
Long hours of reading same question over and over again
This is my first post and this is why:
I joined the forum quite a while ago just so I could download the sim unlock for my wizard. I read everything I could find because if it bricked my phone - I knew it would be my fault. I did not have to ask any questions and the unlock process was successful. (it wasn't an easy process for a first timer)
I have been away from the forum for a while, until I got my tilt back in October. I have been hooked ever since. Before I download and install a ROM, I read. When I have issues with a ROM, I read. By the time I am done with the reading, there is nothing for me to ask. I still don't know how the cooks do it, but when I'm ready to find out - I'll read.
The repeated questions have really gotten monotonous. I will get 50 pages into a thread and find myself skimming through because I already know what is going to be asked next.
Warning.... here I go again... ignore at will
Alaskan_awd said:
This forum is very overwhelming at first with all the different version talk, different lingo, problems, etc. I almost gave up and said screw changing it, I have spent hours upon hours reading here the last few days and I am starting to get it figured out. The problem is it is a little dis-organized, and what would seem to be the most basic and obvious question to you is a stumper to some one like me (it is actually harder to find basic answers then it is to find more technical ones because no one wants to answered the basic ones, thinking that answered is too obvious).
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Exactly, couldn't agree more. If this didn't strike an emotional cord with people, I think the answer would be... yes there are people who don't do thier homework first, but there are at least as many who do. So let's focus on the ones that do and perhaps it will give fewer excuses for those who don't.
Having a so called "newbie" area.... sorry that I'm a doubting Thomas, but what would be the change? Okay, let's say it exists. First good thing, get the newbs out of your hair. Now they have a sandbox to play in. Are the information, conversations and all else different? Same structure, just a different sandbox. What happens when they play in your sandbox when they can't find what they are looking for in thier's? I can hear it already (no one in particular of course, but the flames do happen already). After a while, who's playing in the newb sandbox? Some of those with the expertise may conclude "all the newb questions have been answered" and tend not to visit the newb sandbox. And look out... less help... here come the newbs trickling in for help again.
Okay, enough of my drama. My point is, without fixing the real problem you're just fooling yourself (IMHO). Why is it always necessary to to things over and over again rather than do it correctly the first time?
This happens in software and hardware development everyday. There's a difference between managing constraints and good enough. I suppose it happens in every industry doesn't it? I guess it's a human thing
navyguy said:
The repeated questions have really gotten monotonous. I will get 50 pages into a thread and find myself skimming through because I already know what is going to be asked next.
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Couldn't agree more! And the skimming (which is normal) happens when there is no perceived value or frustration or whatever. Then you could miss a minute detail if you were looking for an answer. This happened in the last few days to someone who read and read and read. He asked a question after doing so, was told to go back an read and he did. After a couple of time it was discovered he missed one simple thing.... "cd to the directory". how many messages later burried in a bunch of other conversations were there? Only the next person who has the same problem and dredges through it will know for sure. Just one of many example out there..... and the beat goes on.
I am seeing more and more dis-respectful replies to newbies then ever before, and it is getting old, all this does is run off potential new comers to this site who might be the next great cooker and spreads a not so good rep about this site
at the same time I see some mods have be respectful to others in there sigs. I think this should become policy across the forum period and those that are rude and disrespectful in their reply should get a vacation to let them know this is not to be tolerated IMO
This site is about growth and interest in these toys of ours, not about ripping newbies who may ask a question that maybe have been asked many times over, so what, why not just post a link to the search and to the Wiki and say welcome to the forums , instead of bashing them? It would leave a better taste in the newbs mouths and they might become a contributor in the future.
Also think about this, just how many of you cookers have something in your sig asking for a cup of coffee ? or Donate to XDA or Donations graciously accepted. Well if a newbie is made to feel welcomed and comfortable here , They are more then likely going leave you a little something.
Me , If I notice a rom cooker being rude, they are not very likely going to get anything from me even if they had something great and useful.
I just replied to a newbie that asked a simple question, but not before someone posted a B.S. reply, I instead answered it with something useful and promoted the search engine at the same time
This did two things, first the newbies was made to feel welcomed and also if someone was to search the same question, they would find a reasonable answer.
BTW B.S. replies just screw up the search results forcing newbies just ask questions instead of finding answers.
Flame away if you want or become part of the solution .
i agree,
there are times that newbs do need help. some of those who i have pointed in the right direction have tried to search, but either search the wrong thing or don't know what they are looking for.
it does work two ways and some of the mods and senior members are to be commended for their help. ( i can think of about 10 folks who go out of their way to help as many as possible and never rip a newb)
those who are helped are more likely to help others.
I find it often takes longer to explain how to use the search facility properly to yield useable results than it takes to answer the specific question, but there is no excuse for rude replies, if you don't like what you see simply move on rather than posting an offensive reply - Mike
Here is a good example of what I am talking about,
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=403829
This reply by kspirit did nothing to help this user ,
No , nothing like that runs on the tilt..
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.
its these kind of responses that need to be curtailed.
Even though a mod did respond , he/she did nothing regarding the above users response. All this does is give the impression that this behavior is condoned .
I am not knocking the Moderator (I do find him to be very helpful) but they do have a huge influence on how others act on this site, and by not informing this above user that these types of replies are not helpful or uncalled for) they are giving the impression that it is okay.
Mods & Admin , what do you all think ? Am I off track here ?
Just wanted to add this:
If the mods were to take the time to edit the titles like this one " New AT&T Tilt Phone - Help" to something like this...Will software like HTC Home, Mobile Shell, Pocket Informant work on both the tilt & 8525?. or something along those lines.....
This would help with search engine results, Yea its abit more work for the mods to do this but it will help greatly in producing more viable search results .
Just a thought...
i think what drives some ppl to be rude is the fact that the ppl who decided to ask a repeated question were told that they have to search for an existing answer before asking a new question, and that they decided not to do that and just post a new one, i think both are mistaken here, and the one with the question brought it on themselves. i really don't like rude answers, but!
AthenaLod said:
i think what drives some ppl to be rude is the fact that the ppl who decided to ask a repeated question were told that they have to search for an existing answer before asking a new question, and that they decided not to do that and just post a new one, i think both are mistaken here, and the one with the question brought it on themselves. i really don't like rude answers, but!
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Ahh do you search much ? this user did not ask the same question twice....
and there is no excuse for being rude, and so what if they had ? a simple link to the Wiki would be a very easy way to deal with it, and a welcome to the forum would get much better results.
why would I want to donate or promote this site in any form if all I got is ripped on ? hmmm
Like Mike has posted,
if you don't like what you see simply move on rather than posting an offensive reply - Mike
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This would yield better results .
by "told" i meant that for example in the kaiser forum, the only sticky there is titled "**BEFORE YOU POST START HERE**" and it says "Read and search before posting. Reply to an existing thread before creating a new thread. Redundant threads will be closed." so, if somebody decides that he/she wants to just ignore this, he/she brought it on themselves. i don't do bad language, or encourage it, but, sometimes some ppl can be really so lazy to even do a search
Just my personal opinion....
I've only been here for a few months and I have to say, I've seen more useless threads then ever before! Now, don't get me wrong, I love to help, and do all the time, but at some point, you see a junior on their first post asking something like, "How do I uninstall an app?", or "How do I turn the phone off?" So at some point of seeing these threads, someone will be a bit frustrated and point them to the search and wiki fetaures located on the top bar instead of a full answer. I fully understand your point, but like I said, these members who join just for a simple answer then after 10 minutes ask why nobody is helping can aggrivate all of us users who come here for new information on a daily basis. Especially when they start a thread, get an answer, and never return.
Look here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=404065
Now in this post, this user was looking for a specific dialer, and of course it's impoosible to search for an image, but I did help. Actually at first, I was a bit mad at the fact they posted the image, but didn't ask in the thread they got the photo from, then realized the image wasn't from here. But after I saw that, I tried to give some info on it, but I can't spend time looking for something they want, but I can help, so I did.
I think I'm done typing , but I'll say this, when I first joined, actually being my first forum, I had a bunch of questions, I didn't feel a need to post a thread for one simple question. I actually spent about a week after work searching and going through a bunch of pages looking for info, and I found a lot!
Also, a suggestion, I asked this in the SPAM thread, how about putting a block on junior users poting new threads? It would prevent SPAM and these simple question threads.
It seems that mods and Admin are strangely silent regarding this topic......wonder why..
I don't think they aren't responding for any unknown reason, this topic has been discussed so many times, there is no interest in tackling this issue anymore.
Just wanted to say that F2504x4 put the problem very articulately and I totally agree with him. Pointing out a mistake (such as not using the search facility) need not be done in a rude and dismissive way.
I will just remind us that we were all noobs one day, and also that some people are more technically minded than others. What may seem to us a simple and trivial question is obviously not so for the one asking it.
TheChampJT said:
I don't think they aren't responding for any unknown reason, this topic has been discussed so many times, there is no interest in tackling this issue anymore.
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They should be taking a interest in this.....if they are becoming numb to it , then they need to take a hard look at why they are a moderator, Sorry if this sounds harsh . Moderators are the leaders that others look to for guidance, they help set the tone of the community.
This is a great site, with a lot of great talent , but it will not take long before it becomes over shadowed with a darker side.
Continued growth is key to any forum and community , and running off new comers with not help with that.
Fact is you will always have newbs ignoring stickies and search engines , nothing will ever change that.
All this site can do is maintain a positive atmosphere , and continuing education to those that join .
So i ask again , what say you Admin and mods ?
Thank you pedmond for this , very well put.
I will just remind us that we were all noobs one day, and also that some people are more technically minded than others. What may seem to us a simple and trivial question is obviously not so for the one asking it.
Yesterday 07:49 PM
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F2504x4 said:
It seems that mods and Admin are strangely silent regarding this topic......wonder why..
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Don't really think the issue is with Mods and Admin. I do see a lot of evidence of them cleaning up threads if they're getting out of hand and sorting out users that are really getting obnoxious. But the problem seems to be that certain people feel their post count is a license to have a go at the newer members. And certain new members seem to think the world is their private helpdesk and that the purpose of these forums is to instantly deal with their every need. Well in any large group you'll always get those that are unpleasant to deal with - that's life. There are just as many, maybe more, who're a real pleasure to deal with and try their best to help. I think if new members read the forum rules and were prepared to lurk a bit before posting, then they'd quickly get an idea of what types of questions to ask and how to get help.
So while I personally totally agree with your views on decent behaviour etc I don't think its an issue to get wound up about. If you can filter out some of the fluff, this site is still the best resource for our phones by far.
(But I've only got about 80 posts, so maybe I'll change my mind when I hit 100! )
What are the Mods/Admins supposed to do? Ban every user?
I often tell people to search for things when they have one post, and have a very stupid question with a blatant answer. When they do that, they don't deserve to be treated with a great amount of respect.
When someone who has evidently searched around, and has clearly tried to solve their own problems and then as a last resort asks for help, I'm far more inclined to be generous with my time, and try to help them.
Some people are obnoxious and post without searching at all, but the admins/mods can't go and ban people because they were once an idiot.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2360488&posted=1#post2360488
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
l3v5y said:
What are the Mods/Admins supposed to do? Ban every user?
I often tell people to search for things when they have one post, and have a very stupid question with a blatant answer. When they do that, they don't deserve to be treated with a great amount of respect.
When someone who has evidently searched around, and has clearly tried to solve their own problems and then as a last resort asks for help, I'm far more inclined to be generous with my time, and try to help them.
Some people are obnoxious and post without searching at all, but the admins/mods can't go and ban people because they were once an idiot.
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Wow what a way to start off a reply Ban every user ?
I think you should re read what has been stated, I did not hint or say ban anyone..but if that is what it takes to effect a change then maybe it should be considered but it should be directed at those that are creating a un-friendly and less then helpful place . IMO
First off I have no problem with someone being told to search, its how they are being told and some of the un-called for comments that are becoming more and more common and is the real problem, go read the example I posted earlier.
what do you consider a worthy response in this thread ? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=404065
As to the stupid questions , Idiots and respect, ahhh I thinks its way past beer thirty .
swanlm said:
. But the problem seems to be that certain people feel their post count is a license to have a go at the newer members.
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while I agree with a lot of what you said, In the example I gave , its even the low post count members that are posting these less then helpful responses, so that is telling me that this a is trend that is spreading and the bad thing is that a mod even replied in the thread, and did nothing about the response given, they only quoted part of my reply about searching.... ( I am still wondering why...)
Btw I only started this thread after a lot of reading and seeing this trend become more common place.
It's not about being against Noobies...
Too many come here from other sites for the wrong reason. Many of the questions that get jumped, closed & merged really should have been asked at the AT&T or other carrier support forums.
I'll quote this post of mine:
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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Good post and very worthwhile reading kyphur,
and I understand clearly why it was written.
Just be aware of this trend and its long term results...
Btw I have walked in Mod shoes , and understand the inner workings of forums, and it is no easy task managing a community.
Thanks for posting that.
Admins, thank you for EVENTUALLY listening to us.
However, can we take this a tad further? Somebody's obviously spent quite some time moving threads across and the result is....
a mess, same as every other XDA-Devs forum.
Is there any scope at all for even more sub forums under the existing x7510 one? Obvious ones that jump to mind is a sub forum just for bricked devices, another just for ROMs and perhaps one for performance related matters.
Having different sub forums makes everybody's lives easier and it means you guys have the opportunity to deliver highly targeted advertising (which should bring in more money for you). Everybody wins!
Alternatively we can just go with the present formula, which basically consists of 20 or so stickies at the top, followed by a mish-mash that makes it very difficult to find things even when using the search function.
I would LOVE to see how you lot structure folders on your own systems! If it is anything like XDA-Devs then I gues you often experience that "now-where-did-I-save-it" feeling!
I say patience...and thanks for the child-forum! Maybe we could make a sticky on how to use some prefix or header labels at the beginning of the thread title, e.g. Bricked: after Kaiser rom update my x7510 went black - HELP! or ROM-DL: official HTC X7510 at last! for ROM download links...
@ NanoRuler
I have read your comments here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=437317 and elsewhere and now in this thread.
I feel I have to say there are a few things you have said that I find more than a little offensive - just a some of your comments in relation to Admin / Mods / Organisation:
"piss-poor organisation"
"admins here are stubbornly refusing to create a dedicated sub forum"
"admins, especially seeing as they cannot even be bothered to respond to any request"
"My, what an excellent example of good organisation....NOT"
Mixing the above style of comment into your posts, along with your tone in your first post in this thread, is not likely to endear you to Mods, Admins and long standing members here. You see there may be quite a lot of truth in what you say, but it is spoiled by those barbed and untrue comments.
We do monitor how things are going and how things can change, but you have to realise that only a couple of years ago the membership was only a couple of hundred, now it's grown to 195000 active menbers (We MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT!) and a membership well over 1 Million. Add to this that the whole show is kept on the road by a handful of voluntary Mods and 1 Admin who does not have 100% of her time dedicated to the site.
The idea that she has "piss-poor organisation" and has "stubbornly refused to set up a forum", aside from being untrue, is also insulting. As you might imagine with only one Admin, you have to wait to see what overall demand is before leaping in to create new Forum. It does create added Moderation work when new Fora are added and there is nothing more disappointing for members to find a forum that never gets answers because nobody goes there. The demand is guaged over a period of time and when the level seems sufficiently high the Forum is created.
With the level of paid staff = slightly less than 1, you cannot achieve military style organisation and everything working like a Swiss watch. (... and do you know I don't think I'd like it if it did.)
Yes we have a few rough edges (that's what makes us so lovable) and believe me I agree we can improve things over time, only don't expect perfection from such a small team. We rely on members to contribute and make helpful suggestions and to do it politely 'cos we do the best we can with the resources we have - and that includes limited time.
Mike
EDIT: It was me who moved a lot of posts from the Athena Forum to here. You know, while I was doing it I was thinking, this will be awkward without sub-fora for ROM-Development etc. (You see I was thinking along the same lines as YOU). It somewhat cheesed me off though,when I came here, to be told it was a "mess". I disagree, "Mess" is too strong a word, but I do agree we may need a Development Forum at some point.
OK, let's take this from the top, shall we?
"piss-poor organisation"
Please go to this forum, http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=374, then tell me how to find a recent ROM in amongst everything else. I accept your arguments about the growth of XDA-Dev's (hey, despite my objections I remain a fan!) and the lack of admins and moderators. But let's be fair here, have you guys actually ASKED any more members to help out?
I KNOW what's involved being a Mod in a busy forum, I was one at MCMCSE.com, but you can still spread the load a tad more, and delegate tasks more (such as delegate the ability to create sub forums to Mods).
If anything, this struggle to contain the load supports MY argument that XDA-Dev's is NOT very well organised at all. Yes, hindsight is always 20/20 so it is easy for me to now say having seperate sub forums just for ROMs will make things better organised for everybody, and yes, I probably wouldn't have set it up that way had I been asked when XDA-Dev;s was started. But just because there was an oversight in the beginning does it now mean it must be perpetuated?
"admins here are stubbornly refusing to create a dedicated sub forum" and
"admins, especially seeing as they cannot even be bothered to respond to any request"
Hmmm....let me see..... Many requests over a period of more than three months and nobody even bothered to reply to us? Yes, that IS stubbornly refusing. As was stated here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=420259 "Mod Edit: Darn I was enjoying watching them suffer!!" was probably intended as a joke, but may well have been a freudian slip!
If you guys weren't being stubborn about it, why didn't you just come back to us and state your reasons for delaying. Why blank us for more than three months?
I think you'll find you guys pretty much scored an own-goal there.
"My, what an excellent example of good organisation....NOT"
Again, you've almost admitted that XDA-Dev's is NOT the best organised forum in the world. That comment was made in response to rorydaredkign's suggestion that using a few stickies would solve all our woes. It was NEVER aimed at this site, its admin or mods, but was only ever aimed at Rory's silly suggestion!
Nobody expects perfection, least of all me. Just don't blank us and don't ignore us. I find THAT insulting, because when you ignore somebody you're also saying through your behaviour that they aren't worthy of your attention. ('ll certainly bear this comment of mine in mind should you choose not to reply )
Nobody expects military organisation, either. Over-organising can be far worse than not organising at all.
Again, at the time that I stated so, admins/mods WERE refusing to create a seperate x7510 sub forum, so I have to disagree with your claim that what I had said was untrue. I'm a lot of things, but I'm NOT a liar, nor have I ever been. (Sadly "endearing" isn't a term typically used to describe me, either!)
Now, having said all of that, I'll also say that I WAS pissed off, especially by the lack of response/action, so I accept that I may have been too quick to accuse.
I wish to apologise for that to the admin, the mods and most members here.
Finally Mike, I NEVER intended the word MESS to describe the seperate x7510 section. Moving everything here in record time must have been an enormous pain and such a move can never immediately result in any degree of order.
Right, I can't change my signature message in that post, so this post is made purely to show the updated signature.
-Edit:- And yet, the signature has changed!
Hi
Okay, I accept there are some vailid points you make. I can assure you there is and has been no deliberate action to stop (or slow down) a forum being created. I think you do have a point about not hearing anything on whether a forum would be created for 3 months. I don't know if I'm proud to say it but that was probably due to a bit of "muddling through", rather than any deliberate action to ignore the forum request. (Almost a case of wait for the clamour for a forum to get very loud and then create it / if not then the request withers on the vine. NOT the most respectful way to deal with the membership I agree but with no guaranteed or co-ordinated hours being put in by Mods and admin (responsibilities for other things)then a more planned approach tends to remain as a good idea but does not get delivered in practice.
Whether Mods should have powers to create forums is an interesting one. Also not one for me to answer. The Admin reports to a Management group and I guess it would be their and her decision. I can see such a suggestion meeting some resistance if only because Mods come and go fairly frequently and to have power over the structure of the boards might be thought a step too far.
... and now I must go to work... late already
Mike
EDIT: I think it's likely you have a lot to offer this Forum, you are obviously interested and have ideas about it. All I would say is, start with the assumption that the Mods and Admin are not against you but with you. We may be slow to change things, for all the reasons I give, but there is no deliberate action to ignore members and you can always send a PM to Mods or Admin if you think something is being missed by us.
Now is time to BUILD the x7510 section!.
Thanks mike for moving the X7510 3Ds here, I am ready to listen suggestions and to better organize the section.
May be Mickyprima or Irus or some other chef would like to be the FIRST in releasing a new ROM?
A sticky "Rom development" thread is needed?
I agree, "it is a start", next step is up to you ( I have an X7500)
sergiopi said:
Now is time to BUILD the x7510 section!.
Thanks mike for moving the X7510 3Ds here, I am ready to listen suggestions and to better organize the section.
May be Mickyprima or Irus or some other chef would like to be the FIRST in releasing a new ROM?
A sticky "Rom development" thread is needed?
I agree, "it is a start", next step is up to you ( I have an X7500)
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Yeah, I moved the more obvious 7510 threads, but not being overly knowledgable about the device, it's entirely possible there are several other threads that need moved.
Also there were a couple that I stickied, because they appeared of on-going importance, but I could be wrong about them. So yes, as sergiopi says, feedback is needed.
Mike
EDIT: side note - many of the moved threads I gave a two day expiring redirect - so they will still appear in the Athena section for a couple of days - just in case that confuses anybody!!
NanoRuler said:
Obvious ones that jump to mind is a sub forum just for bricked devices, another just for ROMs and perhaps one for performance related matters.
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there is no such subforums for x7500 either...except for the one for ROMs of course, and I think that could be a good idea, or maybe rename this section as x7510 and x7510 ROMs.
slow...but sure...
NanoRuler...you need to remember that the 7510 is still a very *new* device and not many members/peeps have it. I have searched the net high and wide for info on the 7510 and to be honest the only place where I get any real info is at these boards...so it may be lacking in many things right now but it is the BEST you can find online...and I know over time things will improve as more people buy this device. I have mine for a few weeks now but I still prefer my universal only cause the 'cooks' have not started working their magic as yet and out of the box I think the 7510 is kinda lame/lacking...
I am reminded by something my dear grand-mom would tell me back in the day...'It's not what you say, but how you say it'.
Count me in if more hands are needed to get things moving faster...and thanks to all the peeps in this forum for making this place a blast to visit.
youmeus said:
NanoRuler...
I am reminded by something my dear grand-mom would tell me back in the day...'It's not what you say, but how you say it'.
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AGREED -- whatever the usefulness of NanoRuler's comments, the negative attitude that is so evident (even in follow-up msg. -- I didn't perceive any real change or even a genuine apology) turned me off and I found myself skimming over much of what he said.
brucewilsonpa said:
AGREED -- whatever the usefulness of NanoRuler's comments, the negative attitude that is so evident (even in follow-up msg. -- I didn't perceive any real change or even a genuine apology) turned me off and I found myself skimming over much of what he said.
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And you did WHAT exactly to campaign for a seperate section? Yeah, I thought so, buddy!
Currently I think you will find YOUR attitude is not exactly positive, particularly so seeing as you are raking up ground that has already been covered.
And you perceived no real change, nor a genuine apology?
I made my my apologies, after having defended myself first. In fact, I do believe I could clearly show that I was wrongly accused in some parts. Yet despite this I felt the need to apologise - I was not forced, sweet-talked or otherwise coerced into an apology. If that's nor real or genuine enough for you, well, though luck matey!
How bloody dare you judge me or anybody else? Who exactly do you think you are?
In your case you've just "skimmed" to the end, in your case too, I will be polite and allow you to pick the 1st word, but the second word most certainly is "off".
It is time to start talking about x7510 again here instead of members mood, attitude, friendliness...
Wow! I merely shared my perception and end up being attacked and castigated. No offense intended but surely I'm allowed to share with you how you appear to come across -- why are you so quick to assume I (or others) are "judging" you? I think the tone of your msg. vindicates my "perception" -- you can villify me and attack me but this is the last word I offer. Let's get back to discussing the important stuff.
Hmmmm....here's what you said:
"even in follow-up msg. -- I didn't perceive any real change or even a genuine apology) turned me off and I found myself skimming over much of what he said"
THAT is judgemental. In case you don't believe me, look up the meaning of the word.
Don't back off with statements like "I merely shared my perception and end up being attacked and castigated", "No offense intended but surely I'm allowed to share with you how you appear to come across" and "I think the tone of your msg. vindicates my 'perception'".
If you merely wanted to share your opinion regarding how I came across, why didn't you think to do so in a PM, as opposed to a public critique? Why raise it at all well after the fact, when everybody's moved on? And finally, the tone of my message was exactly correct in response to somebody criticising me out of the blue.
At least have the courage of conviction to stand by your earlier statement, instead of trying to wash it away with dribble.
More importantly, have you signed up to put YOUR x7510 potentially at risk to test Cmonex's new unlocker? See, I don't simply spew hot air - I also walk the walk, which is why I've signed up.
Now unless you have something useful to contibute, do us a favour and don't post for a while?
While I haven't been on XDA as long as some other members, I have gone through the mammoth threads that are Dude's and Cyanogen's and its just flooded with spam or often un-useful information most of the time.
This is a development thread after all and for those running either experimental or unstable builds are beta-testing for everyone else. Now there's no harm in having a bit of chit-chat here and there to lighten things up but some issues seem to get lost amongst the ten's of posts just saying "Flashing now/issues after flashing a theme/etc".
They are experimental/unstable for a reason!
I was wondering though, if it would be beneficial to devs to have some sort of standardised form for bugs and issues. Yes I know we could probably use a wiki or support tickets offered on other sites, but generally many things get posted here on XDA first.
I was thinking of a simple list that users could copy and paste to make things easier to see at a glance and to improve on search hits. Something like this:
ROM Build:
Theme:
ROM Issue:
Issue Keywords:
Reproducible:
Wiped before install:
Re-installed/reflashed:
Logcat:
Searched for answer:
An example of a report as below...
ROM Build: Cyanogen 3.9.6
Theme: Stock
ROM Issue: Cannot run MyTracks (be specific as possible)
Issue Keywords: MyTracks ForceClose
Reproducible: Yes (put in steps)
Wiped before install: No
Re-installed/reflashed: Yes, re-installed MyTracks
Logcat: Attached/No
Searched for answer: Yes
It can be added to though so I'll leave it to you guys to offer up suggestions.
The "Issue Keywords" part should flag up easier during searches, so if you run a search for "Issue Keywords Mytracks Forceclose", technically speaking it should link to this thread.
What do you guys think? Its a longshot I know for most members to copy and paste before they reply but if it becomes a habit, maybe it will become easier for devs to track issues for themselves to prioritise or offer solutions.
FLASHING NOW
Kidding, I think a standardized form would be useful and I think any issue somone reports must have a logcat or it should be thrown out with the exception of phones that won't boot at all and a logcat can't be created. I think posts like "this don't work' are largely useless to developers.
lol I was reading through the Hero dev threads before and all I saw was one liners with FLASHING NOW/CAN'T WAIT/ROSIEEEE etc. While enthusiam is a fantastic thing, sadly more information is often needed to fix any issues that might pop up.
I don't expect, and neither should anyone else, a dev to read though 200+ pages of posts to only find that there are only a handful of issues that are actually ROM related and not solvable by other members with a little effort.
A general thread for a rom that's a little more open and a straight bug report thread would probably help all invovled maybe u can pm a few developers about this idea to see if there is any support for it.
Aso a moderator that can provide tight strict support of the bug thread to keep it on the striaght and narrow
I have suggested to the mods before about having a totally seperate section just for ROMs and that but it looks like it was debunked, along with having any new moderators for this place.
Which is a shame because a lot of threads and points do get lost amongst the often pointless posts that are made, which makes searching and reading them a chore.
I'm not sure what the moderator support is like for the Dream section, I've only seen Mikey being active in trying to establish any ground rules. Have offered my services though if required but will try to help out whenever I can.
I'll ask around though to see if devs would be interested in trying to standardise reports here on XDA and hopefully other members might follow suit before posting.
I really like this idea. It would be nice to have everyone on the same page. I would also like to see a feature where you HAVE to put your info in a sig. The hardest thing about helping people is lack of info. With this in place, everyone will be a lot happier to help then if you just said, "I have a problem" and expecting everyone to read your mind.
Good idea NeoBlade!
I second this idea.
Thanks! After all it just makes it easier for the people here, be it devs or helpful members, to diagnose and to figure out solutions when troubleshooting. Its the same process that I use when helping people with technical issues on computers - The more relevant info available, the easier it becomes to track.
Cuts out a lot of guesswork I find.
Enforcing it into your signature would be nice but from the looks of it, most people have put in the effort to display the latest info at least, not all though which can't be helped since its understandable.
At the end of the day, most of us are willing to help out others, as long as they put in a little effort too.
What about a bug tracker? Maybe not even something as formal as a bug tracker but something along those lines. We could set it up to force certain information before submitting a bug such as their current rom, a2sd setup, phone model, motherboard, etc. I am a web developer so if I get some extra time I could write something up pretty quick. Just a thought.
chuckhriczko said:
What about a bug tracker? Maybe not even something as formal as a bug tracker but something along those lines. We could set it up to force certain information before submitting a bug such as their current rom, a2sd setup, phone model, motherboard, etc. I am a web developer so if I get some extra time I could write something up pretty quick. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
most of the devs are using googlecode which has a bugtracker with it
There's a link to this in Cyanogen's Experimental thread
I think this is a great idea, so don't get me wrong, I just think it's more complicated than bug hunting.
A lot of what gets discussed sometimes isn't directly related to the ROM, but things like best swap methods and battery ussage do end up incorporated into the ROMs. Most people who post on these things do know what they're talking about and do make a contribution to the ROM, and other ROMs, too, and it necessarily stems from the discussion about the ROM, in my experience, most of the time.
In general, if I post, I try to address some sort of work around or solution to a problem that not everyone is having with the ROM. The fora aren't just for the ROM Devs, the rest of us read them, too, and get a lot out of them, despite the occaisional inanity.
If you go through the HTC Wizard ROM Forum, you'll see the same thing, and a ton more heated arguments. What happens as the ROMs progress, is that fewer bugs come up, and the fora get cleaned up right along with them.
What I might suggest is that people title their posts (perhaps be required to do so) with [Bug Report], [Request], [Solution], [Work around], [Comment], [Question], [Discussion], maybe [Misc.] to help sort through the parts of a forum. All of these parts are important enough, and mostly do contribute somehow to the results, which is a great ROM, but the process is people being in the discussion, and that's what's really going on. Wiktionary: forum I imagine if people did this, at least they would have to identify what it is that they're posting, which is where I see the problem. If people were required to think before they post by taking some sort of labelling action, they might second-guess themselves and save the keyboard for something more useful to others. At the least it would let anyone, devs included, filter.
It also might be handy if I could delete my own threads & posts that were errantly posted. We all have them somewhere. And people who post thier feelings rather than their cohesive, relevant thoughts will only be eradicated by educating the masses, so, pay your property taxes and find out what's going on with your local schools (we may be stuck for now, but there's always hope.).
Yeah there is an active bug tracker at googlecode already, but I can't really see many people actively taking the time to actually post there and fill in the relevant information.
I have no issue though with discussions in a thread as it adds character and can provide a friendly environment for people to help each other. More often than not, when people see others helping out, they would chime in too with a contribution.
I think Cyanogen though has killed off any compcache/linux swap discussions earlier on as he mentioned in his post that he didn't want to hear anymore of it And it has actually remained as so - There are plenty of such threads that exist already.
I agree though Janis with a structured standard title in their posts. It only takes a couple of seconds but can help people skim through what is banter and what issues might need looking at. I'll do so from here on it too (if only fast reply supports post titles!).
Would be nice if there was a notes/announcements section put up on certain sub-forums too outlining some form of post structure like what was mentioned. I'm more familiar with IPB/phpBB personally but I'm sure vBulletin supports it too.