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Mike Calligaro_MSFT (Expert):
Q: The i-mate JAM/HTC Magician community is abuzz with a possible build of WM5 for them. While I understand it's not up to Microsoft, can you at least confirm the existence of WM5 running on that device? It's rumored impossible due to 64MB ROM limitation.
A: We can NOT confirm the existance of a WM5 build for that device. However, I can say that 64M ROM meets the requirements for WM5. The device is likely CAPABLE of being upgraded. But the majority of devices are not upgraded, so you shouldn't expect it will happen.
Some of our other questions answered here:
http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=715582
So that kills the lie that device manufacturers and operatiors have been spreading that 64Mb is not sufficient to run WM5. This is no surprise but just emphasises the point that these companies have NO interest in their customers and only want to get as much as they can out of us while ignoring our concerns or issues. Well done HTC and co.
I too have a S100 and I too want to have WM5.0.
But, remember, they are a company. They are supposed to earn money. Do you work for free? They surelly don't.
You get what you pay for, a phone with WM2003SE, just like when you buy a laptop it will came with WindowsXP and they will not give you windows vista for free.
And you must also take in account that porting drivers to WM5.0 is time/man power consuming. It is better for them to make a new product and stick WM5 to it. If you want WM5 you buy the new model.
Of course, if they have a new magician with WM5.0, I think they could upgrade the older ones, because they would nnot have a cost associated with R&D just for older models. But even in that situation, I suppose Microsoft cashs a license for every copy of WM5 shipped on a phone, so, HTC would have to pay Microsoft for every copy of upgraded WM5.0 they gave.
WM5.0 just for us, well... forget about it. It would require driver development and testing. And they then need to support two operating systems, because people would start to ***** if their device fails with WM5.
HTC would be a great company if they provide us WM5. If they don't, well, I don't think they don't care about customers. They are just a normal company, not an outstanding one. That's all.
PS: i'm not related with HTC in any way. this is just my way of understanding corporate business.
I don't know what the fuss is all about but what so good about this Magneto? I mean everyone is feeling they've lost out but I think the 2003SE version works great. Making the most of what we have through self hacking and innovation is what this forum stands for... this is what made this forum so great...
WM2003SE IS a great OS. Just like Windows 98SE (except the occasional crashes). But we still have moved on to the newer technology of XP, right? With each new step up in OS, new possibilities are unveiled. Either you run the latest OS and get the option to run the latest programs taking advantage of that, or you don't. It's as simple as that.
I don't think anyone expects HTC to make WM5 run on the Magician, and then give it to us for free. They are here to make money. We all know that, considering how much most of us paid for the Magician. But why is the only option to buy new HARDWARE? If your P4 runs Windows XP just fine, will you find it ok to have to buy a new PC, just to be able to run Vista? Of course not.
We need more companies to take care of their current users base, by providing OS upgrades that you pay for! I don't know how much developement is needed to make all the drivers and so on, but personally I would be happy to pay $100 for WM5, since the hardware part of the Magician suits me quite nice for the moment. Then, in 6-12 months or so, when a fast, small qwerty equipped VGA PDA with built in wifi and GPS is made available, I will replace my device. But that is because I want better HARDware, not better SOFTware. Huge difference!
efjay said:
So that kills the lie that device manufacturers and operatiors have been spreading that 64Mb is not sufficient to run WM5.
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Click to collapse
It is not necessarily a lie.
I remember when we upgraded the IPAQ 3800 to the WM2003 back then which was supposed to "need" more ROM than the IPAQs had.
Some WM components like Media Player or Terminal Services Client were not in the ROM, but on the CD as installable programs, so only the core OS was in ROM.
I figure that this is the case here too.
The WM5 core OS+apps might be installable in 64MB (some apps probably to install afterwards), but the complete feature set of WM5 might need 128MB.
HP will offer upgrades to WM5 for the IPAQ hx2000 series which has 64MB ROM and later for the hx4700 which already has 128MB.
So it was clear to me that 64MB ROM is not the reason for NOT upgrading a device.
The use of components that will get no WM5 driver might be a reason, for instance old Bluetooth or video chips or memory controller or whatever.....but the Magician is not old enough to have such "outdated" components I guess...
So this leads to the simple realization that HTC will not provide a Magician upgrade simply for marketing reasons - they want to sell their Wizard and Universal now....
And if the manifacturer does not support WM5, I doubt that OEMs like T-Mobile, O2, Vodafone, or even QTek will bother.
After all they want to sell the same new HTC devices....
I happen to work in a similar field.
This is probably a case of 98% marketing decision with 2% technical reasoning.
As you might recall - companies are alive to make their shareholders happy - and one of the greatest and most proven ways of getting your shareholders smiling is to sell a lot and make a huge profit. There is of course more to it like ... public brand awareness, customer satisfaction, environmental and social responsibility and other BS but... making huge profits that either flow to the SH as dividends or raises the price of the stock in the case of a publicly traded company is the 100% proven way to make the guys happy.
Now... guess how you make a big profit? you sell many many devices ... and this you achieve by diversifying your product line. This is really tough in a comodity market (cellphones are a comodity these days) - so you do your best and if WM5 is a big deal feature - why not make new devices that are marginally improved but one major improvement is WM5? I guess that's the force-majore behind most of these decisions. Nobody is trying to screw anybody - and I happen to have a Magician too so I too really want WM5 - but on the other hand such is life and such is the way that most businesses are operated. I guess we shouldn't expect too much.
Cheers, Lisa
I fully agree that providing an upgrade to WM5 is up to the manufacturers/operators. The point i was trying to make was the amount of rom on the Magician was given as an excuse as to why it would not be given an upgrade. With the reply from the Microsoft live chat and also the announcement by HP that they will be producing the rx1950/1955 which only have 64MB rom we know this to be untrue. HTC, Imate and other operators have every right to decide that it is uneconomical to produce an upgrade for their older devices, (even though HP and Dell obviously think otherwise and are offering upgrades on some of their devices); I just dont see why they didnt just say so instead of trying to fool people.
WM2003SE is an ok os but some of the improvements in WM5 such as persistent storage, better battery life, better bluetooth and supposedly a more stable OS are features that would be welcome on our devices. No one can deny the current devices have serious problems with bluetooth, stability and of course battery life. Improvements in these areas would be welcomed and if there is a charge for the upgrade that is acceptable; no one is saying that they should just give it away. I actually have a Blue Angel device and im sure BA owners could tell you of their problems with bluetooth and wifi. Im pretty happy with my device apart from the occasional lockup but i would welcome an upgrade to WM5 rather than having to cough up and buy a new device. The current crop of WM5 devices are pretty underwhelming for me - the Uni is too big and wont be easy to use one-handed; the Wizard uses miniSD. So I wouldnt be buying a new device now anyway. Im just tired of companies just placing profit above all else, thats all
Don't get me wrong efjay - I agree with you and I would be extremely happy if I can get my magician running wm5.
Anyway, it's now a waiting game and I guess we will find out if HTCs business model includes WM5 for the MA or the BA.
One more thing to consider is that these companies work on a project basis - which means that they allocate the best and the finest engineers for project X (i.e. - Blueangel or Magician) - once the project is over - then only a few engineers are left with the crap job of supporting the "older projects" and the best engineers are allocated to newer models - so if you take into consideration that HTC has let's say two current "new" models (universal, wizard) which I am pretty sure that by now the good engineers are no longer allocated for - instead they are probably allocated to the two next gen devices which must be in the pipeline if the company has the will to survive... so frankly thinking about it - the Blueangel and the Magician are "older generation" devices that are in a status of "they are working so don't touch..." - i.e. - no chance on earth that they plan to venture into anything major with these devices apart from necessary evil - like repairing super critical show stopping bugs or faults...
Sorry to paint such a dark picture - but this is corporate life. But... still one should always hope...
True as it may sound, I'm still happy how things are going for me ofcourse there will a hundred more things I' like. Sometimes I wish HTC were as organized as Palm. But then again...
lisa1982, thats a very interesting insight into corporate operations. I wont hold my breath but will welcome it if it does.
HBK said:
WM2003SE IS a great OS. Just like Windows 98SE (except the occasional crashes). But we still have moved on to the newer technology of XP, right?
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Yeah, but I bet youre not using the same PC you had in 1998.
Personally I'd rather have a device that comfortably runs WM2003SE than one that struggles to run WM2005.
I looked.. i hope this has not been asked before.
About a month ago I came across my first windows mobile device. This device is the Typhoon. After comming from a line of nokias and moto razrs I quickly fell in love with windows mobile operating phones. Thank god, i used to want an iPhone and after doing the research I now know the error of that way.
I want Touch FLO, I want WM6.
Now this is the dilemma, I have recently been able to save up enough money for a Touch. Should I buy it or wait for the Kaiser?
Here is what I need answered to properly assess this.
The touch seems nice but the idea of the qwerty with 400 mhz processor and more rom/ram plus 3 megapixel camera seems like enough to sell me on a Kaiser.. or is it. Does anyone have any idea of a release date for the Kaiser? I heard sometime in late August? Also how much do we expect to pay for the Kaiser.. $600-$700 any leaked figure I have not read anyone? Does anyone have any idea if it will be possible to put Touch FLO on Kaiser without bricking it? Not fake button flo.. i mean real flawless Touch FLO. I have heard the Kaiser's screen will not allow Touch FLO. Is this true?
Now my questions for the Elf.. Is there any figure on how high it can be overclocked.. i have heard some say 240-260 mhz but I have also read 299 mhz. Anything over 300? Does the elf normally get sluggish in its touch flo interface while running applications?
Would I regret buying the Elf in the near future?
I am sorry for so many questions but everything I read people always say different things. Help!!
Late August or early September seems to be the consensus, at least for its availability in Europe. Note that some carriers will offer their own branded versions (T-Mobile in Germany labels it as the Vario III, Cingular in the US calls it the 8925) -- these versions may be somewhat less expensive (especially the Cingular version, since they subsidize phones by locking you into a contract).
Availability in the US seems a bit more problematic. Kaiser hasn't been certified by the FCC yet. Also, the US currently has an import ban on new devices using Qualcomm 3G chipsets -- the fallout from a intellectual property lawsuit filed by Broadcomm. There's some question as to whether or not Kaiser is subject to this ban.
The TouchFLO software will run on Kaiser -- the demo video at expansys.com shows it in action.
thanks
Thanks man, but any idea about what I was asking on overclocking a touch?
So, having caught up on my reading about the Kaiser using standard software video drivers instead of hardware I have to ask what to me is an obvious question:
Why can one of our chefs not "acquire" the drivers from a WM6 device with the same chip and bake them into a Kaiser ROM?
Incidentally does the chip vendor have any reference drivers?
Or am I missing something here?
James
No reference drivers are available.
Attempts have been made at making drivers from another device using the same chip work on our HTC products, so far it got us nothing.
We won't see a new HTC device using the same chipset again so "porting" drivers from a newer HTC product is also out of the question.
So.....
Either HTC coughs up the drivers.
Someone with a lot of spare time and intimare knowledge "rips" the drivers from another device such as the LG KS20.
Someone with even more time and knowledge writes new drivers (not very likely to say the least).
undac said:
Someone with a lot of spare time and intimare knowledge "rips" the drivers from another device such as the LG KS20.
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Chainfire already tried this if anybody bothers to read through the OpenGL ES thread, especially, the new people near the end of the thread.
Nobody has tried to cook a rom of it though that I know of, and cooking means all of the linked driver files, not this one file people are passing around like a pot hit.
However, I think Chainfire was pretty thorough and it's not likely cooking would be any more successful.
a KS20 ROM can be ported to Kaiser? (i mean, all generic and hardware drivers) and then make an Hybrid with another kaiser WM6 or WM6.1 rom? it could work..
NuShrike said:
Chainfire already tried this if anybody bothers to read through the OpenGL ES thread, especially, the new people near the end of the thread.
Nobody has tried to cook a rom of it though that I know of, and cooking means all of the linked driver files, not this one file people are passing around like a pot hit.
However, I think Chainfire was pretty thorough and it's not likely cooking would be any more successful.
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Click to collapse
From what I can remember Chainfire did try to cook it (he was refering to constant reflashing in the other thread).
And all due respect to Chainfire but I'm sure he's not the only person in the world who could potentially pull this off.
From my point of view he just proved that it certainly isn't going to be easy, not that it is impossible.
undac said:
From what I can remember Chainfire did try to cook it (he was refering to constant reflashing in the other thread).
And all due respect to Chainfire but I'm sure he's not the only person in the world who could potentially pull this off.
From my point of view he just proved that it certainly isn't going to be easy, not that it is impossible.
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Click to collapse
Indeed I did do multiple attempts of cooking, with uncountable different versions, hacks, etc. You don't even want to know all the things I've done to get it to work. In the end it was all fruitless and I decided I had spent enough precious time on it without satisfactory results. I don't believe it is impossible at all (just nasty) and there are probably a sizable number of people, some here on XDA, even who could possibly do it, given enough time and access to relevant devices. I am neither a noob nor a novice in these matters, but I will happily admit that this is beyond me and will remain so unless I spend a couple hundred more hours ont it (which I won't - sure I have many more ideas how to fix the remaining issues, but I have a company to run and don't think it's worth it).
Furthermore, another reason I stopped trying to do it is because the KS20 drivers have their own issues, so even if it did work, it's still is not a fix-all solution, which eventually makes the whole thing not worth investing hundreds of hours. Not to say it would be impossible to combine the good from Kaiser with the good from KS20 etc. It's a time thing.
It's also possible the WM6.1 releases resolve a couple of compatibility issues - though not very likely - to be honest I haven't even looked at that yet.
As for the D3Dm file that is going around... Complete and utter nonsense, as posted in other threads (with explenation), don't let it get you.
Sorry if I'm thread jacking.
Chainfire,
It seems that the official response from HTC has quieted us down a lot. I'm not seeing very much going on anymore since then. Have we all kinda lost hope and feel it's time to throw in the towel? Or maybe it's just in my head and we are all still fighting hard to get HTC to fix this for us.
Also, I read a lot of replies where HTC said they are working on a fix for mid to late feb but I think those were false reports.
ericc191 said:
Sorry if I'm thread jacking.
Chainfire,
It seems that the official response from HTC has quieted us down a lot. I'm not seeing very much going on anymore since then. Have we all kinda lost hope and feel it's time to throw in the towel? Or maybe it's just in my head and we are all still fighting hard to get HTC to fix this for us.
Also, I read a lot of replies where HTC said they are working on a fix for mid to late feb but I think those were false reports.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Things are still going on, all I can say (just painstakingly slow)
This may help...
I was recently at the "pocket hack master" website (i cant remember the name of the company) and as far as I know, they are trying to work out a solution to the qualcomm chip in our kaisers... I doubt theyll be able to provide the missing drivers, but hopefully will atleast provide a boost in the screen response for our phones.
I think the pocket hack master guys are trying to find a way to overclock the processor, not write new drivers for it. It would help response times to overclock but It won't make up for the lack of drivers. Just imagine if we had those drivers and were able to overclock. I would be pretty sure-footed about bragging that my phone was an Iphone killer. Our phone has the potential to be a bad motherfu$%er, I just wish that HTC gave a ****e about what it's customer base thought, and less about how much money they can milk out of each device. If they released those drivers, in my opinion they would have created the Iphone killer before the damn Iphone even reared it's fruity face. I used to take pride in owning HTC devices, they were the best devices available at one time. Tides have changed, and now HTC's got some competition, and in my opinion, they are failing to stand their ground. I still love my kaiser, but next time I buy a device this whole driver debacle is gonna be whispering over my shoulder telling me to go for the Eten glofiish, or some other windows mobile device, and in the end, may be the deciding factor in leaving behind my high school mobile sweetheart. Dammit I want them drivers lol. Anyways, rant over. Sorry for threadjackin'. Cheers!
sWuRv said:
I think the pocket hack master guys are trying to find a way to overclock the processor, not write new drivers for it. It would help response times to overclock but It won't make up for the lack of drivers. Just imagine if we had those drivers and were able to overclock. I would be pretty sure-footed about bragging that my phone was an Iphone killer. Our phone has the potential to be a bad motherfu$%er, I just wish that HTC gave a ****e about what it's customer base thought, and less about how much money they can milk out of each device. If they released those drivers, in my opinion they would have created the Iphone killer before the damn Iphone even reared it's fruity face. I used to take pride in owning HTC devices, they were the best devices available at one time. Tides have changed, and now HTC's got some competition, and in my opinion, they are failing to stand their ground. I still love my kaiser, but next time I buy a device this whole driver debacle is gonna be whispering over my shoulder telling me to go for the Eten glofiish, or some other windows mobile device, and in the end, may be the deciding factor in leaving behind my high school mobile sweetheart. Dammit I want them drivers lol. Anyways, rant over. Sorry for threadjackin'. Cheers!
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Click to collapse
couldnt agree more, well said. im sure we'll find a fix soon enough, there are a lot of talented individuals who dwell on this site... something will rise from the abyss, i can feel the breakthrough coming lol and we'll all shout from the rooftops... "haha apple, victory is mine" like stewey griffin but till that day... we'll just have to wait and wait and wait for htc to tilt some new drivers our way. but yes... rant over
Chainfire said:
Furthermore, another reason I stopped trying to do it is because the KS20 drivers have their own issues, so even if it did work, it's still is not a fix-all solution, which eventually makes the whole thing not worth investing hundreds of hours. Not to say it would be impossible to combine the good from Kaiser with the good from KS20 etc. It's a time thing.
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I've tried disassembling the drivers from the top down since we know how the API from D3D/OpenGL works, we just don't know how to interface with the Qualcomm crap. But sadly it going to take a lot of time, and the last time I touched ARM-like assembly was on the 65816. x86 experience doesn't apply.
I do appreciate the Kaiser is more powerful cpu and graphics-wise than the PSP and the DS, but oh well.
Thanks Chainfire.
NuShrike said:
I've tried disassembling the drivers from the top down since we know how the API from D3D/OpenGL works, we just don't know how to interface with the Qualcomm crap. But sadly it going to take a lot of time, and the last time I touched ARM-like assembly was on the 65816. x86 experience doesn't apply.
I do appreciate the Kaiser is more powerful cpu and graphics-wise than the PSP and the DS, but oh well.
Thanks Chainfire.
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The MSM7200 is more powerful than what's in the DS and PSP? lol
NuShrike said:
I do appreciate the Kaiser is more powerful cpu and graphics-wise than the PSP and the DS, but oh well.
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Wll not quite as good as the PSP but certainly a bit better than the DS, according to Qualcomms own comparison charts at least.
ericc191 said:
The MSM7200 is more powerful than what's in the DS and PSP? lol
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Click to collapse
Unless you'd just agreed with me,
DS: yes (ARM9 + ARM7 + specialized multimedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS#Technical_specifications
PSP: toss-up (custom mips cores w custom chip support): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Portable#Design_and_specifications
page 4: http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf
NuShrike said:
I've tried disassembling the drivers from the top down since we know how the API from D3D/OpenGL works, we just don't know how to interface with the Qualcomm crap. But sadly it going to take a lot of time, and the last time I touched ARM-like assembly was on the 65816. x86 experience doesn't apply.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everyone thanks for all the responses. Full disclosure: I work on the technical end of High Tech, although at the opposite extreme: Big, bad ass servers and clusters. I too am no ARM assembly guru, but I have messed quite extensively with some ARM based home NAS devices. I'm not dissing anyone, but I guess I should have been more specific in my question and asked for more specific answers:
WinCE like the rest of the Windows family has standard APIs for graphics, with all the nasty, bare-metal stuff abstracted into device drivers (HAL/whatever). Current WinCE (i.e. WM) uses a (somewhat compatible with the Win32/64 systems) DirectX model. The other reason for doing this is so hardware vendors (I'm looking at YOU Qualcomm!) don't have to expose their IP to the world in return THEY have to code the drivers. It's more complicated here since the MSM7200 does more than just drive the display. However the graphics driver portion of the drivers will remain constant across implementations of the chip.
So: Can someone who's actually tried this explain the issues that they ran into when attempting to extract the drivers from another device's ROM and run them on the Kaiser? Is there a list somewhere of systems that use the MSM7200 with WinCE? If we make this a community effort then we can eliminate dead ends very quickly.
Additionally, since HTC seems to be a lost cause: Has anyone approached Qualcomm directly? Something along the lines of: "You're taking a black eye with a very influential group of developers, early adopters and enthusiats. All you have to do to fix this is release the WinCE reference binary graphics drivers for the MSM7200 (no open source required!) to the xda developers forum and let them carry it from there. It doesn't cost you anything, doesn't open up any IP that couldn't be reverse engineered from existing products by a competitor anyway, and it earns you acclimation with an influential group and the type of positive publicity money can't buy. It shouldn't hurt your customer HTC either as they aren't responsible for support for non-official firmware anyway. If the carriers are worried about unlocking, that horse has bolted already, and making the graphics driver issue die down would radically decrease the publicity associated with the device and hence the odds of a carrier user discovering the unlock tools. From a licensing perspective, presumably HTC gets an end-user license with each chip anyway, even if they chose (unwisely) to not integrate and distribute the MSM7200's hardware accelerated graphics drivers."
It's called negotiation. Respect the IP, explain the impact in financial and business terms of future sales, decreased sales risk, and positive publicity. (It helps to try not to look or sound like Eric Raymond too... )
If anyone from Qualcomm is lurking and reading this, feel free to PM me. I'd be only too happy to explain how one "sells" this sort of thing internally to management. Been there, done that, printed my own damn T-shirts.
I don't know SpecG, would someone who does know the organization comment on any applicability here?
James
friends.. Im so sad with the performance in Divx of kaiser.. I had a hermes, and it is great running high quality divx..
I think the driver solution will come with WM7, I hope!!!
and if we make an overclock? L26 wm6.1 comes with an app to overclock kaiser...
jgmdean said:
So: Can someone who's actually tried this explain the issues that they ran into when attempting to extract the drivers from another device's ROM and run them on the Kaiser?
[snip]
Additionally, since HTC seems to be a lost cause: Has anyone approached Qualcomm directly?
[snip]
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Even when all dependencies from grabbing all of the KS20 driver files have been satisfied, booting with the KS20 DDI.dll will cause the Kaiser to hang. There's some hardware specifics either cooked in, or something is misunderstood/missed.
Can't expect a driver blob from Qualcomm because rumor has it they themselves don't have any drivers. They were so closed on IP, they wouldn't even let ATI write some drivers for them, and so Qualcomm did a ****e job trying. So rumor has it that Qualcomm is being more humble now, but it's one of those situations where Qualcomm hardware is nothing more than a poison pill.
i like to thank Chainfire for all the effort he has done
and slowly all experts are goin to collect info and miising pieces
and probably after some time we will have a solution
Anyway another thing is overclocking which might helped a bit and since even that isnt here either think we stuck for a while thanks for your time
satiros
Just a question : Did somebody of skilled cheafs around here take a look into HTC Shift drivers (as far as I now this device have also Qualcom MSM 7200 and Intel Intel Stealey) ?
I havent been keeping up with the HTC Touch Pro lately, but I have been monitering it from the day it was announced until ATT released it as the Att Fuze.
I hated how terrible the graphics quality on my Tilt was, especially over the 8525 I had. I read this was because of missing video drivers.
IIRC, HTC practically had a lawsuit on their hands over this, and promised that the Touch Pro will have drivers. I think I even asked about it here and was assured that it would come with drivers.
However, I was reading reviews and some people commented about how angry they were that the phone yet again has no video drivers or Direct3D hardare support.
Is this true? Was HTC seriously stupid enough to not include drivers yet AGAIN? Or is this just AT&T's ATT Fuze version? (The guy mentioned something about possibly fixing this with a custom rom, but I am nervious about using unofficial roms on my phone that may brick it or make it incompatible with some of ATT's services).
From what I recall, no drivers exsist for the Att Tilt, they aren't just not installed, so its impossible for me to install video drivers for it. If the Att Fuze also has no video drivers, is there any way I can install those at least or do these too not exsist?
It does come with drivers, and I personally have not had any issues (at least with YouTube videos). I have not tried movies. There are some updated 3D drivers to improve frame rate that were initially developed for the Diamond. See here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2892184&postcount=357
It has drivers for 3D (OpenGL hardware acceleration) but IMO the GPU (or drivers) is poor. You get low FPS, tears (vsync), etc etc..
It seems that 2D graphics lacks hardware acceleration , so apps/tasks that are using DirectDraw (for eg.) are below per performance in comparison to Marvell CPUs devices
emesbe that's an OpenGL wrapper for Direct3D apps (applications such as diamond vhologram)
Please see these topics:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=463407
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=449391
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=442712
Cyber Akuma said:
IIRC, HTC practically had a lawsuit on their hands over this...
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Careful, I'll just butt-in to limit continued misinformation. Such a sourcing for a 'lawsuit' were from very vocal but horribly ill-informed users who ended up being incapable of finding a legal counsel to represent their desire for a frivolous case. Whining erupted due to some wrongly assuming that because a device may have the hardware capable of certain performance that it was the responsibility of the OEM to provide the full software capabilities to make use of that hardware. The issues were not of misrepresentation of the software/hardware by HTC but of HTC choosing to develop products without the extra expense for licensing drivers for all of its hardware capabilities and some tech-curious end-users who determined that they were not receiving all that the physical hardware was capable of. IMO, greed came in and some very vocal end-users demanded what they were not necessarily entitled to.
...little different than you having to pay extra to license available features in an app such Nero Burning ROM, or some carriers (often Verizon...) releasing models of HTC devices which do have the same GPSOne capabilities of other carriers' models but Verizon choosing not to fully open up such features to a GPS app of choice. Another analogy may be the early ROMs for the HTC Touch/Vogue and Titan/Mogul/6800/P4000 where the GPS drivers were not available at all.
As far as Direct 3D/Show/Draw drivers of the Raphael derivatives -- toss out the FUD that some have spread because THE VIDEO DRIVERS ARE THERE. As it stands, they're relatively new devices where the software may get updated and performance improved.
Keystone said:
Careful, I'll just butt-in to limit continued misinformation. Such a sourcing for a 'lawsuit' were from very vocal but horribly ill-informed users who ended up being incapable of finding a legal counsel to represent their desire for a frivolous case. Whining erupted due to some wrongly assuming that because a device may have the hardware capable of certain performance that it was the responsibility of the OEM to provide the full software capabilities to make use of that hardware. The issues were not of misrepresentation of the software/hardware by HTC but of HTC choosing to develop products without the extra expense for licensing drivers for all of its hardware capabilities and some tech-curious end-users who determined that they were not receiving all that the physical hardware was capable of. IMO, greed came in and some very vocal end-users demanded what they were not necessarily entitled to.
...little different than you having to pay extra to license available features in an app such Nero Burning ROM, or some carriers (often Verizon...) releasing models of HTC devices which do have the same GPSOne capabilities of other carriers' models but Verizon choosing not to fully open up such features to a GPS app of choice. Another analogy may be the early ROMs for the HTC Touch/Vogue and Titan/Mogul/6800/P4000 where the GPS drivers were not available at all.
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I understand.
First of all, I was talking about the Tilt's problem, not the Fuze.
And I was wondering how a lawsuit like that would hold, though I have seen weirder things get accepted, and sometimes the threat of a class action lawsuit is enough to push a company to fix something. (worked for Sony and Microsoft).
The hardware was ADVERTISED after all, its like buying a laptop that advertises having a fairly decent range mobile GPU but not progiving any drivers anywhere for it, forcing you to run it in standard VGA mode.
Keystone said:
As far as Direct 3D/Show/Draw drivers of the Raphael derivatives -- toss out the FUD that some have spread because THE VIDEO DRIVERS ARE THERE. As it stands, they're relatively new devices where the software may get updated and performance improved.
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I was asking if it was true that the Fuze dosen't have drivers, I didn't flat out say it does not.
Cyber Akuma said:
The hardware was ADVERTISED after all
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...I challenge you to quote that of HTC in regards to the questioned Direct 3D/show/draw drivers. Proclaiming generalities in a device's abilities is absolutely not on par to advertising to the end user specific metrics of performance and/or features sets. That is the founding flaw for the over-zealous lot who failed in gaining legal counsel for their whine.
No, it is not on par to purchasing most laptop or desktop PCs with their individually assembled components. These PDA/phones are implemented as the OEM and purchasing carriers see fit and that often includes a cross-device, pre-manufactured all-in-one chipset that do not necessitate that the customer license every component and feature of them -- though the same extra software licensing purchases to activate included hardware capabilities sometimes on PCs and laptops also exists.
The point that you seem to miss is that one is not automatically entitled to access every feature in hardware of your possession. Property rights of software is often required to legally drive such hardware. The world is not a free for all and it is often up to the manufacturer's of core components and the OEMs to work out what will be purchases/licensed and what will not. I understand that as an efficient business model to only manufacture a single product and to sell it as a base and then sell optional licenses for its separate features. This is not equal to video cards from ATI or nVidia where the drivers are released for public access and installation or SDKs for open source OS' such as Linux.
Cyber Akuma said:
First of all, I was talking about the Tilt's problem, not the Fuze.
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No, this topic of yours in the Raphael forum was quite clear upon your concerns of the Fuze/Raphael repeating your perceived errors of the Tilt.
Cyber Akuma said:
I was asking if it was true that the Fuze dosen't have drivers, I didn't flat out say it does not.
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I'll remind you of what you presented:
Cyber Akuma said:
However, I was reading reviews and some people commented about how angry they were that the phone yet again has no video drivers or Direct3D hardare support.
Is this true? Was HTC seriously stupid enough to not include drivers yet AGAIN? Or is this just AT&T's ATT Fuze version?
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You made a comments upon your perception of "missing drivers" and then asked for conformation. I saw it as a question looking for accurate information and answered it as such. As I also contributed, that there is the spreading of FUD (post #4)) out there that is confusing people. That thread concerned the Fuze and was it along with erring reviewers sources for your misinformation?
The certain answer again is that the Raphael derivatives do have the afformentioned drivers. That is confirmed with inclusion of the associated *.dll's and OS registry entries. Some previous HTC devices did not include all of those entries.
Hi all,
I was wondering if HTC was coming out with a "newer/updated" version of the x7510 or something similar. I now it's a niche device so it's rare I come across anything like it. I don't mind waiting to spend the money on a newer version of the device instead of buying a used one on ebay.
Any help with this questions is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Robotech123 said:
Hi all,
I was wondering if HTC was coming out with a "newer/updated" version of the x7510 or something similar. I now it's a niche device so it's rare I come across anything like it. I don't mind waiting to spend the money on a newer version of the device instead of buying a used one on ebay.
Any help with this questions is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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This was supposed to be out about now but I haven't heard much lately:
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=1785&view=1&c=htc_thoth_100
Wow, depending on how this thing set up, it can be successfully marketed as a total Kindle, iPad, dell mini 5 killer. I hope its real!
Im sure looking also forward to the upcoming model, if it comes
the specs looks awesome, 1gig , 5mb camera and im looking to see
how the sdd size will be,.
let's hope and see what HTC will comes up..
still happy so far with the HTC X7510 which is a killer device.
Am pretty sure that we will not see any new models within the Advantage-series. Basing this on info from HTC since we work with them and we use 7500/7510 in our productionline where we install our own applications and sell to blue-lights...
But, I *HOPE* I'm wrong becasue I too want to see a new and improved Advantage.
I would love to know if this new device is coming to the UK in April as HTC told me just a month ago there would be no replacement for the X7510.
Is there anymore info on it yet?
Successor to HTC Advantage?
JHodgkinson said:
I would love to know if this new device is coming to the UK in April as HTC told me just a month ago there would be no replacement for the X7510.
Is there anymore info on it yet?
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I personally think HTC may be missing an opportunity. With all the rave about the iPad, its critics point out the iPad's missing features and imperfections. When you look at what those critics would like to see (video-conference camera, etc), you get the feeling that they are actually describing something like Advantage x7510. HTC was ahead of its time when it released the x75xx series, and that was why they did not sell many units. Now the market has woken up to the realisation that something like the x75xx is really the ideal, practical business device. That is what the iPad tries to be - and all those other devices with giant screens. Several people who have seen me use the HTC x7510 at meetings have asked how they could get one. They feel disappointed when I tell them HTC don't make them any more! I have never seen any unit on sale on eBay. Why? No sane owner of an HTC Advantage would want to part with it!
Now is the time for HTC to release a re-born Advantage with:
Capacitive screen
1 GHz Snapdragon processor or similar
WVGA (480 x 800) resolution
A more secure cover for the battery/miniSD card/ SIMcard compartment
Improved camera (Not just megapixels, but really sharp pictures)
USB host
Bluetooth keyboard (optional)
I hope HTC is listening!
I agree - the good thing about the ipad is that it will launch a huge market in tablet like devices such as the Advantage. I was rather dreading the day I lost or damaged my Advantage, as it is so useful as a PDA/email/internet.
I agree - every time I use my Advantage, people comment. I think the problem was that HTC was not so well known when it brought out the Advantage, so it got forgotten by the market, plus, being honest, the Advantage does have its issues, such as the fact that it is memory strapped and is so sloooooow. It still gets commented on, and for many purposes, it is a useful alternative to laptop for up to a day out of the office.
A new one, better battery, capacitive screen, running Android, could be a winner, I completely agree.
rjstep3
It's really quiet in here.
Just Google for the Dell Mini 5 - a complete re-working of the Advantage concept, though without keyboard (but capacitive screen and onscreen keyboard mean this is not really necessary).
Looks really good.
rjstep3
its not windows mobile (or even mobile 7)
Vico100 said:
its not windows mobile (or even mobile 7)
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if you look around this whole site, there is the odd forum devoted to devices running a little known OS called Android. I didn't realise that everyone here had to be signed up to Microsoft.
Seriously, with WM being consigned to the bin of history, we are all going to have to shop around. Android looks good to me, and it is developing fast. Unlike Windows Mobile. The Dell Mini 5 looks a worthy successor to the Advantage in just about every way IMHO.
rjstep3
Dell Mini 5 and HTC Advantage
rjstep3 said:
Seriously, with WM being consigned to the bin of history, we are all going to have to shop around. Android looks good to me, and it is developing fast. Unlike Windows Mobile. The Dell Mini 5 looks a worthy successor to the Advantage in just about every way IMHO.
rjstep3
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It may be presumptuous to say that WM is "being consigned to the bin of history". It really depends on what you are looking for. I have read the tentative specifications of the Dell Mini 5. I would have loved to see it as "a worthy successor to the Advantage", but I really don't: With NO MS-Word or MS-Excel compatible editors (only viewers), it cannot replace my HTC Advantage. Until Google Apps includes real productivity tools, it cannot replace WM for me.
rsawoseyin said:
It may be presumptuous to say that WM is "being consigned to the bin of history". It really depends on what you are looking for. I have read the tentative specifications of the Dell Mini 5. I would have loved to see it as "a worthy successor to the Advantage", but I really don't: With NO MS-Word or MS-Excel compatible editors (only viewers), it cannot replace my HTC Advantage. Until Google Apps includes real productivity tools, it cannot replace WM for me.
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I didn't realise it didn't have document creation ability that is a very good point.
However, looking around at the developers, it really does seem like everyone is calling time on WM development - I wish it were not so, I should be able to keep my kit going for another year or so, but let's face it, it's time to side-grade.
I remember when Psion went out of business, I kept using my kit for a little while, but it soon became too difficult to keep it running. The world had moved on - exchange sync-ing rather than simple email for one thing. It's very sad, I have kept with WM since I ditched my Psion kit, I thought Microsoft would be a safe bet and I would never have to change, but they screwed up in a major way.
I think Dell's Mini 5 is the way to go - but it will be a little time before it is ready, that is all. The Advantage should keep going for a year or two.
rjstep3
Android and the future of WM
As I said earlier, it is all about what you are looking for. In my view, WM will remain for as long as MS-Office remains the dominant productivity tool in our offices, and as long as Google has not ported its web productivity tools into Android in a way that they can truly replace MS-Office. The true death knell for WM will be when I can use Google Docs on Android and can sync my Android device with MS-Exchange. Of course, for those only interested in social networking, these are not a consideration and the Android is good enough as it is.
I would not even talk about Apple's devices. They are great for their cool factor. But I do not see them as serious business tools.
Over time, if Microsoft refocuses on WM, it could survive many more years as a niche OS, for those who want their "office in the pocket", especially if Microsoft collaborates with the likes of HTC to blend the best of WM with the usability of Android.
rsawoseyin said:
As I said earlier, it is all about what you are looking for. In my view, WM will remain for as long as MS-Office remains the dominant productivity tool in our offices, and as long as Google has not ported its web productivity tools into Android in a way that they can truly replace MS-Office. The true death knell for WM will be when I can use Google Docs on Android and can sync my Android device with MS-Exchange. Of course, for those only interested in social networking, these are not a consideration and the Android is good enough as it is.
I would not even talk about Apple's devices. They are great for their cool factor. But I do not see them as serious business tools.
Over time, if Microsoft refocuses on WM, it could survive many more years as a niche OS, for those who want their "office in the pocket", especially if Microsoft collaborates with the likes of HTC to blend the best of WM with the usability of Android.
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I think we are, as they say, in violent agreement.
rjstep3