Related
Hi all, I'm a noob with a Wizard on O2 running WM2005. I have had some partial success with the above topic. Would appreciate any advice as to whether I've done something really silly or whether the idea could be taken further.
OK, I nicked all of this from other threads so only take the credit for putting it together.
Suggest before you start you empty all of your mailboxes on the device.
Step 1. Disable messaging on startup. Believe there are two ways of doing this, one is to remove it from the "Today" screen items, or the following registry hack. "HKLM\Microsoft\Today\Items\"Messaging" And change Enabled to 0
Step 2. Apply the following hack: HKCU\Software\Microsoft\MAPI Add a new string value called PropertyPath. For the value in that field, I added the storage card directory without the "attachments sub folder. i.e. \Storage Card\Inbox.mst... where ... is the (random?) number assigned.
Ok, when I synch the device, all of my emails now go to the storage card in the above named directory.
Right, now for the "partial" success bit (hoping the experienced guys can help out here).
Because I've disabled messaging in the registry, in order to get the items on the today display, I have to go into settings etc. Once that is set, it updates the registry so at reset time it screws up and creates a new "storage card" directory on the unit itself and renames the storage card as storage card 2.
Any thoughts on how to get round this ?
I've tried adding "messaging" to the startup folder and it ***** up as above.
So... thoughts are as follows:
Is it possible to add a cab to the extended ROM which forces the registry key to zero on reset (was thinking along the lines of the one already there which removes the battery icon)
....and for the gurus, is there something I could run to automatically add the "messaging" item to the today screen with some sort of delay on it to allow the card to initialise ?
and finally, have I banjaxed my device by doing this? Seems to work OK
Thanks all
After try and error for few days finally i've managed to use my storage card as default "my documents" and big storage as program files folder...
nonentity said:
After try and error for few days finally i've managed to use my storage card as default "my documents" and big storage as program files folder...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would you mind saving us a few days of trial and error and tell us what registry changes you made? It sure sounds like an interesting hack...
"After literally an hour's ceaseless searching", I have discovered the "hidden art of turning base things into gold". :wink:
V
here u go... just finished writing the directions...
hope it helps...
Great idea and work. Do you think it will have an effect with Tomtom Navigator 5 since map files are installed in the root folder of the SD card and not in a sub-folder (i.e. My Documents)?
this tweak allows u to use external storage as local storage. it depends on whether u set ur "storage card" or "storage" to program files folder it will be the default installation path...
now all my programs r in the program files folder A.K.A. "Storage" even for those programs that needed to be installed in the main memory like SBP, anti virus etc...
i dun have to worry about my main memory anymore cos this has free up sufficient space for it...
Thanks man. I'm scheduled to do a hard reset on my unit and make a fresh install since my unit has been acting a bit strange lately.
there are 25 downloads on my doc but not a single comment...
This will work very well for "Storage=Program Files" but I think the OS will make a new "My Documents" as soon as you pull out your Storage Card ... (especially if there is an app trying to use that folder)
But I'm using it for the Program Files method.... I think its pretty clever
amazingly it did not change... even if u change another sd card it will still remain as my documents...
i've tested on "my documents" when i took out my sd card, "my documents" folder simply disappears. when i save a note etc, there will be a temp "my documents" folder appear. but this folder can be deleted at anytime before reinserting ur sd card and the original "my documents" folder reappears resuming its place... it'll be fine to change sd cards as all sd cards will be recognize as "my documents"
Test Crash
Yesterday i did some test crash on the system to find out the vunerabilities of it anyway, here's the results...
1) can't survive default factory settings (power + reset) obviously... :roll:
2) forgotten all abt "Windows Media Player" folder and "Connections" folder residing at the original "Program Files" folder by default so before u delete the original "Program Files" folder, make sure that u cut and paste both folders to storage (new "Program Files" folder) i've uploaded "Windows Media Player" folders just in case it's too late... as for the "Connections" folder, it appears to be empty. so i gues its ok... :wink:
3) system only fails (storage = My Documents2, new "My Documents" folder on main memory) when caller ID is installed. this can be restored by taking out your SD card, wait till "My Documents2" folder disappeared, delete new "My Documents" folder and reinserting SD card. but u will have to repeat this process everytime u restart ur system, :twisted: unless caller ID has been removed.
4) Installation of Acrosoft MMS cab will have the same problem as above... but it is not permenant like caller ID. just use the method above once and it'll stay that way for good...
that's the only software conflict i have experienced. other than that, my magician kick ass...
:idea: the purpose of this tweak is to let everyone utilize the storage spaces completely, minimizing the usage of the main memory so that it'll have better performance... turning ur BigStorage into "Default Installation Path", ur SD Card into "Default Documents Storage"... nothing goes to waste...
Structure of this system:
System Files: Main Memory
Program Files: Ext-ROM 18.96mb + Storage 7.6mb= BigStorage 26.56mb to 26.72mb
My Documents: SD Memory
any feedbacks? comments? anything? anyone? :?
nonentity said:
any feedbacks? comments? anything? anyone? :?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thx my friend, i'm going to check it and let you know if it was successful.
thanks sherko...
anyway, i've found out a way to speed up PPC even more after you are done with the file system tweak...
alternaltively you can MemMaid to do this, but there are limitations using MemMaid, that is some programs will not work if you move certain .dll
1) copy the entire AppMgr folder from \Windows\ to the new \Program Files\ dir (ex. \Program Files\AppMgr\)
2) use your preferred registry editor to search for \Windows\AppMgr and change all results to \Program Files\AppMgr\XXXX.dll
Reboot your system...
3) use explorer to delete \Windows\AppMgr and that's it...
you'll find that your system will responds faster than it used to be... thanks to the new file system, your PPC recognizes all your external storage as local storage (as in Main Memory)...
hi all , i have done all and working fine. The only problem i get is when i try and sync my outlook with outlook 2003 and i get error on pocket pc
Error : Could not create the voice link recording directory.
I do not have any software on it yet on bigstorerom, only Resco Explorer
any help would be good
Thanks
Brian
hi Brian
ok... i'm not sure if this is the case, i believe that your prior note option save to storage card / My documents. by now your system recognize your storage card as main memory...
so, go to your note > tools > option
change to Save to Main Memory....
as for your outlook, shouldn't have any problem unless you are synchronizing with your notes and the option setting above may just solve everything...
if it works, that means someone's not paying attention on my notes...
keep me update on the results....
cheers...
ok... now i know your problem...
i never noticed it as i don't really uses the voice recording... i'm getting the error when i tap on new in the notes sections...
let me know if u have the same problem...
now i'm working on it... i'll post it once i've rectify the problems... btw, if you happen to solve it before i do, pls share it with us...
thanks...
hmmm...It doesn't works for me....
I've done the tweak, and when I push the contatcts button, my Magician says: "Error opening the shortcut or locating the target filemane"
I've copied all my folders in my Documents, but there wasn't UAContents in there (I've done filetweak after a hard reset).
Any Idea...?
HyperMalac said:
hmmm...It doesn't works for me....
I've done the tweak, and when I push the contatcts button, my Magician says: "Error opening the shortcut or locating the target filemane"
I've copied all my folders in my Documents, but there wasn't UAContents in there (I've done filetweak after a hard reset).
Any Idea...?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
have you reinstall the cab files u wanted like acrosoft MMS? these r the customized tool from ExtROM... since you did not copy the uacontent, i suggest that u try to reinstall it back...
Hello,
I have a MDA Wizard and have been trying to change the default location of the files transferred to the storage card with no success. I changed the BaseDir value in the registry, but it does not work. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
yea me too, im looking for a solution. changed BaseDir and even change the My Documents path to Storage Card. Nothing so far. anyone know?
New location for files received by bluetooth
I came accross this program in this forum somewhere. Really good. Give it a try.
Just run the cab file and soft reset. After that, run the program whenever you want to switch bluetooth on and it puts a bluetooth icon on the system tray. double click icon and go to settings and set the dir where you want to receive the file and you're ready to go.
I've tried getting a really big file too just to see if this merely moves the file to the other location after receiving or actually changes the location of incoming files and found out it changes the location.
Let me know if this works for you.
hay damac
see thas :wink:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=46443
and Version 1.5 Coming Soon
Partial Success...
This is an old thread but I think is directly related to what I'm trying to do. I've seen many other threads trying to solve the same problem, so I won't create a new one. Anyway, first, here is the info:
AT&T 8525
HERM: 100
ROM: 3.62.502.3 (Offical AT&T)
Results:
Successfully transfered 2 test files from my laptop (XP SP2 Tosiba Bluetooth 4.00.22D) directly to my storage card:
AdbeRdr80_en_US.exe - 21,822,168 bytes
Tears of a Dragon.mp4 - 8,572,344 bytes
How:
Added a STRING value BaseDir to the HKLM\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\OBEX\{000...} set to: "/Storage Card/"
Problem / Temporary Solution:
Using Resco I can see the file in the Storage Card as soon as the beam is over, however the OBEX prompts you if you want to save the file or not. If you click NO the file gets deleted. If you click YES, the file gets moved after two seconds to \My Documents or some files just go nowhere(?). So before I actually answer the prompt, I just copy the file elsewhere on my card and then click NO on the prompt.
Analysis / Conclusions (so far):
1. The official AT&T ROM does not have OBEX FTP service installed (obexfile.dll). It only has the OBEX Default Inbox service (obexinbx.dll).
2. The obexinbx.dll is not behaving as expected. Ex: Why "/Storage Card/" vs. "\Storage card\"; Adding the DWORD value DisableUI does not eliminate the prompts as it should; If I delete the TransportAuntheticate value in the same key, it just reappears, yet the dll is not supposed to use that value as per MSDN2.
Could somebody try to duplicate my results and/or see if there is a way to disable the prompts? Thanks in advance!
Has anyone tried this? Please?
Here are some screenshots to better explain what is happening:
1. Add BaseDir value to the OBEX key.
2. Send test file from my laptop.
3. PPC displays 1st UI prompt (recfileprompt.jpg)
4. Laptop displays progress indicator for file transfer. (progress.jpg)
5. When transfer is complete, PPC display 2nd UI prompt. (uiprompt.jpg)
6. I can confirm the test file did transfer to the SD card (fileinssdcard.jpg)
7. If I click on YES the file disappears (but some files get moved to \My Documents). If I Click NO the file disappears.
So... Is there a way to get rid of these prompts? Or to make them not move or delete the file once is in the SD Card?
Thanks,
dgaud007 said:
Here are some screenshots to better explain what is happening:
1. Add BaseDir value to the OBEX key.
2. Send test file from my laptop.
3. PPC displays 1st UI prompt (recfileprompt.jpg)
4. Laptop displays progress indicator for file transfer. (progress.jpg)
5. When transfer is complete, PPC display 2nd UI prompt. (uiprompt.jpg)
6. I can confirm the test file did transfer to the SD card (fileinssdcard.jpg)
7. If I click on YES the file disappears (but some files get moved to \My Documents). If I Click NO the file disappears.
So... Is there a way to get rid of these prompts? Or to make them not move or delete the file once is in the SD Card?
Thanks,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, the contents of my HKLM\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\OBEX\ are the folders Services and Transport. There is no {0000-0000...} folder there. It exists though in the folder Services, so for my device, it is HKLM\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\OBEX\SERVICES\{0000...}. After adding the key, the temporary storage for the received file is ideed SD Card so I can grab it before responding to the prompt.
Nevertheless, either if I respond YES or NO for the file save prompt, the file is deleted from SD Card and does not reappear anywhere on the device, so it does not get moved, but deleted.
Notes:
For me it does not matter weather I write "/Storage Card/" or "\Storage Card\", it still receives to Storage Card, but regardless of what I choose, YES or NO, it deletes the file.
tnyynt said:
Unfortunately, the contents of my HKLM\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\OBEX\ are the folders Services and Transport. There is no {0000-0000...} folder there. It exists though in the folder Services, so for my device, it is HKLM\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\OBEX\SERVICES\{0000...}. After adding the key, the temporary storage for the received file is ideed SD Card so I can grab it before responding to the prompt.
Nevertheless, either if I respond YES or NO for the file save prompt, the file is deleted from SD Card and does not reappear anywhere on the device, so it does not get moved, but deleted.
Notes:
For me it does not matter weather I write "/Storage Card/" or "\Storage Card\", it still receives to Storage Card, but regardless of what I choose, YES or NO, it deletes the file.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. This is the best I could get it to work, by just copying or moving the file to another SD Card location (or renaming it) before responding to the prompt. Anyway, this is kind of an old post. I had orginally done this since Dr. Yar crashed on my phone. Since then, I discovered HTC Bluetooth FTP Explorer 1.2, which adds an FTP tab to your Bluetooth Connections settings, where you can specify the default location for incoming bluetooth files.
Thanks for trying it out though!
PS,
I was trying to upload HTC Bluetooth cab, but there is a problem with the database. Anyway, I got it from VP3G's AddOn pack in the Hermes forum. A quick search should find it for you.
dgaud007 said:
Exactly. This is the best I could get it to work, by just copying or moving the file to another SD Card location (or renaming it) before responding to the prompt. Anyway, this is kind of an old post. I had orginally done this since Dr. Yar crashed on my phone. Since then, I discovered HTC Bluetooth FTP Explorer 1.2, which adds an FTP tab to your Bluetooth Connections settings, where you can specify the default location for incoming bluetooth files.
Thanks for trying it out though!
PS,
I was trying to upload HTC Bluetooth cab, but there is a problem with the database. Anyway, I got it from VP3G's AddOn pack in the Hermes forum. A quick search should find it for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know whether you are referring to this (which is inside my rom), but look at my settings. Even with these, Bluetooth still receives to Device and saves to Device\My Documents.
tnyynt said:
I don't know whether you are referring to this (which is inside my rom), but look at my settings. Even with these, Bluetooth still receives to Device and saves to Device\My Documents.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. That's it. It works fine for me. Is your SD Card name "Storage Card"? I would also try using the browse button and selecting different folders inside the SD Card.
dgaud007 said:
Yes. That's it. It works fine for me. Is your SD Card name "Storage Card"? I would also try using the browse button and selecting different folders inside the SD Card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just tried. Same thing!
Well. That is strange. I don't have a Trinity. I have a Hermes. What I would do at this point, is first, try installing the BT FTP cab over your existing one (backup first!). If that doesn't work, try removing/re-inserting the SD Card and also if possible another SD Card. Could there be a write access-protect restriction on your card that forces the OS to use the default My Documents location?
Anyway I have to go back now to my other life , but if I think of something else I'll let you know. Sorry you have problems
OBEX vs FTP
That bluetooth setting is only for FTP transfers. OBEX is the "native" transfer protocol that phones et al. use. Changing the setting for FTP received files doesn't alter the OBEX ones!
I'm going to try Dr Yar, but would love to find a registry setting for this!
I've just found this one as a cure, about to try it..
http://www.freewarepocketpc.net/ppc-download-obexinboxex.html
Here is a reg tip to move the sync folder to an other place on your device. Works fine on my Artemis :
1) Go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows CE Services
2) Create a new String value called "FileSyncPath"
3) Enter the path of the new folder you want to be synchronized, eg "\Storage Card\My Documents"
4) Soft Reset
Now the folder "\storage Card\My documents" will be synchronized instead of the default "\My Documents"
Notes :
1- backup both the registry and the content of your "\My documents" BEFORE doing this. After the 1st synchro, they may disappear...
2- the official "My Documents" folder still exists in "\My Documents"
3- Your documents are in a second level folder and Pocket Word & Pocket Excel do not see the files. To open them, you have to go to the File Explorer first. Any idea to fix this ?
I found this tip on a french forum : http://qtek9100.forumpro.fr/
KR, Imer.
Does this really work? I'm surprised that there are not more messages on this topic.
What device did you try this on? I am about to give it a try on my Hermes...
Tx.
okay, I missed the first sentence where you say you tested this on an Artemis.
I just tested it on my Hermes and my findings are:
Sync from PC to PDA seems to be okay though there seem to be no format conversion (not entirely sure about this).
Sync from PDA to PC does not work. I have not been able to get any kind of changes on the PDA to be reflected on the PC:-(
Not good for me. Can you Imer confirm that you don't have the behaviour I just described?
Tx.
To be honest, I have only tried a few times because the storage card was not mine. I manage to buy a 2Gb as soon as I can.
I saw you post that on an other thread : http://www.itauthor.com/notes/archives/2005/12/syncing_to_stor.html
Did you tried it ? I think I will have my storage card next week.
KR, Imer.
Tried the 'save mail to storage card' cab from SurrealNetworks, and it doesn't work for WM6 on the Dash. I checked the registry, and the updates were made by the cab. Does anyone know if there are different entries needed?
Or has anyone had any luck getting this to work?
Sucks wasting 20mb on my work email on the device and not the card...
dboone21 said:
Tried the 'save mail to storage card' cab from SurrealNetworks, and it doesn't work for WM6 on the Dash. I checked the registry, and the updates were made by the cab. Does anyone know if there are different entries needed?
Or has anyone had any luck getting this to work?
Sucks wasting 20mb on my work email on the device and not the card...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Key in WM6 is:
HKLM\System\Inbox\Settings
add "PropertyPath" value="\Storage Card\Mail" datatype="string"
Or wherever on the card you want it stored.
I found this by activating the save attachments to Storage Card option, then searching the registry for the key, once I found that location above, I added the PropertyPath value for the storage card location in the same key.
Reboot and it should be good...but you will probably have the issue maybe with it creating a Storage Card folder upon reboot because many devices the mail starts before the storage card. If that is the case, take your SD card out, rename the Storage Card folder to Storage Card.bak, shut down the device. Put SD card in, reboot, and leave the .bak folder there forever.
At least that is what works on the Wizard to get mail on the SD card. Now I have 2000+ emails and attachments on my storage card, no issues across reboots, working fine.
Good luck any problems, report back..
Does the AttachPath also work here? Think that would be even more useful.
jnmarshall said:
Does the AttachPath also work here? Think that would be even more useful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, you can move attachments through the options in the interface to the storage card. That is how I found the new location of the mail on the SD path is by searching the registry after the tweak as I mentioned above.
Looks like it works on the Dash!
techlogik said:
The Key in WM6 is:
HKLM\System\Inbox\Settings
add "PropertyPath" value="\Storage Card\Mail" datatype="string"
Or wherever on the card you want it stored.
I found this by activating the save attachments to Storage Card option, then searching the registry for the key, once I found that location above, I added the PropertyPath value for the storage card location in the same key.
Reboot and it should be good...but you will probably have the issue maybe with it creating a Storage Card folder upon reboot because many devices the mail starts before the storage card. If that is the case, take your SD card out, rename the Storage Card folder to Storage Card.bak, shut down the device. Put SD card in, reboot, and leave the .bak folder there forever.
At least that is what works on the Wizard to get mail on the SD card. Now I have 2000+ emails and attachments on my storage card, no issues across reboots, working fine.
Good luck any problems, report back..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems to be working!! Thanks!
How Can I Find This Path?
HKLM\System\Inbox\Settings
i cant find this one? should i creacte this HKML? this folder i cant find it in FILE EXPLORER in mt dash.. thanks help me out here pls thanks
hklm is a registry folder... you will need a registry editor to modify it.
thanks i got it...
disable tmobileblue homescreen
How can i change this default homescreen everytime i restart my dash it keep changing the homescreen?
techlogik said:
The Key in WM6 is:
HKLM\System\Inbox\Settings
add "PropertyPath" value="\Storage Card\Mail" datatype="string"
Or wherever on the card you want it stored.
I found this by activating the save attachments to Storage Card option, then searching the registry for the key, once I found that location above, I added the PropertyPath value for the storage card location in the same key.
Reboot and it should be good...but you will probably have the issue maybe with it creating a Storage Card folder upon reboot because many devices the mail starts before the storage card. If that is the case, take your SD card out, rename the Storage Card folder to Storage Card.bak, shut down the device. Put SD card in, reboot, and leave the .bak folder there forever.
At least that is what works on the Wizard to get mail on the SD card. Now I have 2000+ emails and attachments on my storage card, no issues across reboots, working fine.
Good luck any problems, report back..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
actually I had to add also key "AttachPath" with value "\Storage Card\Mail\Attachments" without quotas.
I did it on HP514 Voice messenger with WM6. The main issue was actually to rename "storage card" on "storage card.bak" and taking card out and reboote. After I started again when I saw new folder "Mail" created on Storage Card I was happy as a kid. I just moved with file explorer all *.att to attachment folder and all *.mpb to Mail folder from \Windows\Messaging. Then I opened Outlook and everything was there as nothing happened. All stored on memory card, damm so goooood. I like you guys,
Ceslo
You made my day, man, thaks.
Ceslo
Saving Mail to Storage card on Smartphone Edition/WM6 Standard
Hi, i am new to reg edit on WM devices, what are the exact values i need to put in to make this happen, any screenshots????. Given todays storage capabilites, this is a huge mistake by Microsoft considering its a standard setting, i have had 4 work colleagues with S620s or S710s all run out of phone memory, Microsoft were not helpful at all
Many thx,
Rich
Thank you thank you thank you
Oye, man, I was going nuts trying to figure out why the HKCU\...\MAPI modification wouldn't work and FINALLY found your post. It's all good now. I guess the moral of the story is don't assume WM5 and WM6 are the same. Uh, duh?
techlogik said:
I found this by activating the save attachments to Storage Card option
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi,
Where is this "save attachments to storage card" option found in the settings?
-John
"Access is Denied"
Does anyone know why I would get a "Access is Denied" message when I try to add a value to the HKLM\System\Inbox\Settings hive?
I'm trying to edit the registry on an HTC S710.
Cheers,
Geoff.
mtn_lion said:
Oye, man, I was going nuts trying to figure out why the HKCU\...\MAPI modification wouldn't work and FINALLY found your post. It's all good now. I guess the moral of the story is don't assume WM5 and WM6 are the same. Uh, duh?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What Registry editor did you use?
Hi Guys,
after doing the tweak and rebooting i had a folder named Storage Card and my real card renamed to Store Card2. Guess the system created the path as the card was not available early enough. Caused a lot of error messages..
any suggestions?
ceslovic said:
actually I had to add also key "AttachPath" with value "\Storage Card\Mail\Attachments" without quotas.
I did it on HP514 Voice messenger with WM6. The main issue was actually to rename "storage card" on "storage card.bak" and taking card out and reboote. After I started again when I saw new folder "Mail" created on Storage Card I was happy as a kid. I just moved with file explorer all *.att to attachment folder and all *.mpb to Mail folder from \Windows\Messaging. Then I opened Outlook and everything was there as nothing happened. All stored on memory card, damm so goooood. I like you guys,
Ceslo
You made my day, man, thaks.
Ceslo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi guys, I tried the adding property path but faced problem.
I'm using Samsung i600 and mobile registry editor. When i try to add the string it says access is denied (error setting value). Really appreciate if someone can give me a step by step guide as I'm not familiar with registry editting. i.e What to put in the value name and value data fields.
Thanks.
Azril
I have HTC (8925(Tilt) and after doing the tweak and rebooting my card renamed to Store Card2.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Does anyone know how to do this with BBConnect mail files? I really need to move my bb mail files
doing the storagecard.bak thing doesnt work...??
New here (and to WM for that matter - had Symbian).
So ive read all over the place about trying to change the mail to the SD. here is my situation (similar to a few here):
changed the relevant reg keys
on reboot i get the "storage card2" phenomena
tried the .bak but to no avail
so ive seen people say "take messaging out of today screen" and that windows live if installed will also make trouble. Notice i only use the pop3/IMAP default client (and no exchange and such).
questions:
how do i take the messaging out of today?
if i dont use the LIve just have it installed is that an issue (and if so..what do i do
assuming i take out messaging from today - i will need to make some softkey take me there - how is that done for my device
I use an HTC Cavalier (S630)
p.s - i saw someone just solved the issue by doing the following after reboot - take out SD, delete storage card folder, put sd back in and voila...but that is too low tech. can i write some sort of batch file that will dismount the SD, delete that folder and remount? after all i reboot only occasinally