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Windows CE

Hi all, hope u had a nice week-end
I have resuscitated an old HP Jornada, and I was wondering if one can still find softwares for windows CE. Especially games, even basic ones since it is intended for use by my kids.
Thank you and take care

i believe that games for the cpu will work
as in if it have an arm cpu arm based games will work
and if it's mips mips games will work
games are typicaly written in asm directly for the cpu and the os dont mean that much

Redugar - I don't mean to be rude but are you leaving in the 80s?
No one has bee writing games or anything other than drivers and other OS / basic components using assembler in over a decade and a half!
It's way way too much work and not at all necessary.
But you are right about one thing - I've seen on some freeware sites like www.pocketpcfreeware.com apps that were compiled for CE2.11 so yes I do believe there is a good chance to find a few games.

Thanks folks for your replies.
I've tried very "basic" games like ICBM, but they won't run.
Visual basic stuff works provided one downloads the appropriate dll.
Will keep searching.
Take care,

well i may still look like this
http://thor.mirtna.org/features/titular_movie_themes_limahl.jpg
but my dukenukeem3d and warcraft2 are just in dirs on my sd card and they run under wm2002 to wm2005 3.5AKU without even a reinstall
so they are not really taking advantage of any newer features of the os
same with this doomCE port
http://www.revolution.cx/DoomCE.htm

levenum said:
Redugar - I don't mean to be rude but are you leaving in the 80s?
No one has bee writing games or anything other than drivers and other OS / basic components using assembler in over a decade and a half!
It's way way too much work and not at all necessary.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check out SmartGear (see my emulation-related articles) and the new Pocket QuickView ( http://www.modaco.com/Pocket-QuickView-40-looking-for-ideas-t255364.html )
The mission-critical sections were all written in assembly. This is why it's WAY faster than any other, C-based emulators / image viewers.

maybe using gcc for arm to some some nativ arm code would also have less overhead then win32 stk
though not sure how many libs would be required to be linked to so could end up a drag

Ok, I know when I am bitten but I am just no willing to quit!
(Just to reiterate - to 80's remark was meant in good fun and not intended as an insult, plus this was written late at night after a long work day)
Any way it does make sense that for high speed some graphics rendering routines will be written in assembler (note that unfortunately eVC tools do not include inline assembler so modules have to be compiled separately and then linked)
I do remember taking a peak at the DOOM port and it is mostly C. (Though I am sure it has assembler sections).
What I was trying to say is this:
a) You can't write a whole game like DOOM in assembler only in reasonable time.
b) Even assembler modules need to be eventually linked in to an executable so the OS (what ever it is) can load them - and here is the problem. Every exe has a header that states what processor and what OS it is designed for. Even if your app does not use new OS features, but is linked using a higher OS SDK settings the exe header will contain a version number unknown to the OS and it will refuse to load stating that it is "illegal file".
A less prehistoric example would be files compiled with WM 6 SDK refusing to run on WM 5 despite the fact that there is almost no difference in the OS.

"(Just to reiterate - to 80's remark was meant in good fun and not intended as an insult, plus this was written late at night after a long work day)"
dont think anybody took it any other way at least i did
what i should had said maybe rather then that they were in pure asm
then maybe that they were not that depending on the os and version of the os itselfs
and maybe of those fps like doom and nuke3d and such
are ports of old dos games where that was more the custom then later on when windows gaming took off

windows mobile 6 on old pc possible?

thinking about making a car pc out of an old small form factor computer. Since the roms code is small I was wondering if it can be done? If anoyne knows or has tried this id love to hear about it. Also if you know of any other versions of windows that might be appropriate for a car pc needs to work with bt audio sincd my head unit accepts a2dp. and able to run tomtom.

if you could use an emulator
but not sure if tomtom would work on an emulator
with gps
problem is that an os is binary code as in written to a surden
cpu
and cpu's in pc's speak a whole different "language" then the arm cpu's in our pocketpc's
of cause if wm is really running on Athena's x86(pc cpu)
then maybe
but ms dont really added support for other cpu types in a long time
they cut support really alpha cpu's from digital got removed with windows nt3.5
and mips and the other type got the axe with pocketpc2000

TomTom can work in an emulator, I tried it in my car PC. But it is not as nice as running, say, Destinator 6 directly in Windows.
Windows XP is actually your best bet - I have it (modded using nLite) running on a VIA EPIA 10000k and its performance is reasonable.
If you want to know more about car PCs, have a look at http://www.mp3car.com or if you are in the UK then http://www.digital-car.co.uk
You will of course find much more information there than here.

I'm not sure this will help, but here is some information on running Windows CE (and Windows Mobile 5) off a USB key. Most of it hinges on using the free Microsoft Device Emulator. Tweaking it to run on your PC directly shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Also I commend you on recycling an old computer rather than buying a new one!
Edit: Oops! After all that I forgot to add the link!
Here it is:
http://www.furrygoat.com/2005/09/portable_ce_20.html

yet another "wm6.5 vs Android" post !

Hi all,
I have been testing android for the last couple of months and I wanted to share with those of you who did not dare or bother to try android or did so but some time ago. I do not pretend to discover anything, simply give some info to those curious as I was a few months ago...The post has not much to do with wm6.5 development so maybe should be moved elsewhere, I post here because it is where in the past I read questiosn and answers about this question.
Android Pros:
Wonderful interface and navigation concept: graphics, scrolling, effects, overall resolution and touch experience I think it is much much better, Multitasking but the UI acts more as an iPhone or Treo, when you leave an application you are exiting it, from a navigation point of view. Another thing I like is the fresh concept of the phone: the notification bar and slide-down courtain, the lock screen, the keyboard are much better. On the side of the sotware is a cloud2.0 phone, since lots of applications tend to connect to the itnernet to fetch contents, context or whatever. this means you do not need to configure or copy so many things each time you flash. It has changed a lot since the first time I tried it: wifi works perfectly, GPS and car kit works perfecly, music, etc. It is very thumb friendly, You can install it as the only OS of the phone ("nand" install) or to run it from wm ("haret") install. They work pretty well both. You can even find dual bootloaders so you can choose which OS to load each time
Android Cons:
Our beloved Polaris are old for this trip !! Android seems to have a high consumption of RAM compared to wm6.5. Regarding storage it has been solved using the sdcard as internal storage but it is not perfect since the sd card can become corrupt much more easily than in Windows. The kernels are ported from Vogue (dzo) and this means no front camera, as Vogue does not have it. BT files transfer to PC & music transfers to headsets have limitations also. Another limitation is for people like me, wanting to have installed dozens and dozens of programs, ready to use: in my experience it seems this takes a lot more of RAM and transit to the cache or sd than in Windows so this means with a 100 programs the device is almost ununsable (on the other hand, with 15 apps is 1.000 times more fluid than windows). Another con (or pro) is the learning curve of the lynux/android new environment. Seems quite easy to modify a rom, simply adding apks (cabs) to the tar file and signing it but scripting, customization, registry, programming seems to me much more complex (to make an analogy, wm6.5 is visual basic and android is java). Another big con is the shorter battery (it is shorter and the phone is more oriented to wireless connections) and the need to have a data plan. With the radio I have used for the last years, the signal is worst.
Not pros or cons but differences:
Android is great for you if you use google (I do): gmail and contact integration is great. Of course, the same goes for WM6.5 with Outlook. Android is great if you have a data plan. If you don't (I don't) you can still use it but you better be sure you now how to cut traffic to the internet. Android stock of apps are oriented to localitzation services (Gps, camera recognition of whatever is focusing, social networks, etc) while wm seems to have still a larger stock of apps, more oriented to productivity, PIM, etc. For example, wm has much better off-line navigation programs since android are all connected to gmaps or whatver.
From the point of view of people enjoying cooking roms, customizing, etc. Android+Polaris seems a step hill to climb but Polaris+wm6.5 has not a long horizon ahead. Well, I hope this helps some of you to decide it it is worth to test android or not and stik or not to the Polaris.
enjoy your devices !

Good but not a replacement POLA200
Hey cruzza i tried out near on all of the android NBHs and yes they are a joy to use on the polaris.. But and heres a big BUT it is not very stable to use as a day to day op system for phone. The cameras weird to use. After working nice for one day it started to force close with everything - there was always a surprise waiting for me when i woke my phone up. You are right bro very very nice to look at and use i cried when i had to go back to windows.. I am curious to know how does your android perform - day in day out..

I've been using Android for six month first on haret then on nand and what i can say is that a lot of concession has to be made, and some are very important regarding stability, battery life and phone functionality
You have a great ease of use and a better feeling on android but general performance and memory management are not as good as on windows mobile
I was a flashing addict and i missed a lot of phone call, gps data due to bugs, flashing time, bad battery life so i decided to turn back to windows mobile (3LIT3 VIII) and i'm very pleased with it

Well, I do agree with most of what you replied. The current release and setup I am using is quite stable for a "light" use: no front camera, no videocall (never used in wm6.5 btw), no native T9 dialer, no native birthdays notifications, limited bt file transfer are a pain but you can live with it. The rest works pretty well: bt car kit, wifi, GPS, UI navigation, phone...In terms of apps I miss lots of things: an app to filter contacts to be sync'd with bt car kit, not so good nav programs (igo, compemaps have no equivalent...). However, you can live without it and the UI is so nice to handle, that it is difficult to go back to the blurry 6.5 or 6.1 screen and I love sync with google calendar and mail. I also love the navigation and buttons concept, the courtain with the notifications and many other things. I also love the open concept behind linux and android. Remember Da_G being warned by lawyers for posting the 6.5 releases? that can not happen in Android. Some brands even support officially roms made by users !!!
The problem is that we certainly have a device old to cope with it all since Android seems to eat more RAM: this means the RAM is eaten only by having installed let's say 100 programs (in wm6.5 It performs better in my experience with so many programs). The performance of the device drops exponentially as you eat resources. Then you may want to try some more advanced setup like installing the NAND to the SD card either to a separate partition or to an enlarged data file, but then my experience so far is that the SD Card becomes unreliable (you may loose all) so yo need to transfer the backup to the pc...and that is difficult to live with for me. Another thing that wm6.5 beats android is about scripting: with mortscript it is so easy in wm6.5 !! but with Android you need a heavy pc platform and you need to learn new languages and tools, far more complex and advanced than windows equivalents.
How do I look at it? I have stopped working on my wm6.5 roms since I do not think I will last much more time on wm6.5; I will probably gift me a data plan (I never had one) and a super android terminal with a good battery, screen, accelerometer and ROM (+ all I have in the Polaris). Until then I have decided to be again a (almost) end user.
The other reason, probably the most important, to change device is that the Polaris forums (both android and polaris) have little posts, new ideas, knowledge sharing... since most people already upgraded the device, and xda developers was in my case the driver to get curious about how these devices work.
So I think wm6.5 works better in our Polaris for a heavy use thanks (thanks to all who made it posible) but Android works pretty well in our Polaris for a basic use and for evaluating wich one you like more. The easiest thing to do is test a haret installation (this means you load wm6.5 as OS, and then run haret = linux as a program that executes android) and if you like it, test nand installation with a different sd card.

pinkstuff said:
Hey cruzza i tried out near on all of the android NBHs and yes they are a joy to use on the polaris.. But and heres a big BUT it is not very stable to use as a day to day op system for phone. The cameras weird to use. After working nice for one day it started to force close with everything - there was always a surprise waiting for me when i woke my phone up. You are right bro very very nice to look at and use i cried when i had to go back to windows.. I am curious to know how does your android perform - day in day out..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, the difficult part with Android is to now what to flash: if the camera or wifi do not work well these means your android kernel does not like your "rom" release. In wm6.5 we only had two kernels the old kernel and recently a "native" wm6.5 kernel.
In Android you have more kernels basically programmed by a few expert cookers and developers, mostly DZO. You have a good post by l1q1d listing setups that should work on all devices. Try and ask for help. the newest kernel is 2.6.32 I think but has no good camera drivers. The previous kernel 2.6.25 supports camera but it is quite useless in my opinion (yes, the "horrible" camera we have can perform even worse than in wm!!). These are the kernels I have been testing but probably there are others. These kernels can not be combined with any release, the cooker must adapt the rom release to the kernel. So you need to locate a working combination so you must use the combinations tested by others (or experiment yourself). You also need to become familiar with modding the NBH to suit your device screen (the way to is atools again by l1q1d) Android has several major releases (eclair, froyo, ...) froyo 2.1 is like wm6.5 more experimental so many peopple stick to android 1.5, not so nice, but they say it works in a more stable way in the Polaris. Hope this helps.

Hi there,
I'm using a different device but I thought I'd comment anyways I cannot agree more to the statement of our devices being old. I think Android is a truly magnificent OS chained to our limited resources, however it is an amazing performer.
I am still on Donut (1.6) exactly because of the same reasons, battery life, reliability and speed. I have tried and messed with a lot of Android builds ported to our devices and I couldn't get the feeling off me that with Eclair and Froyo my poor Kaiser was struggling to operate.
I chose Android because no matter what I did to Winmo I was never completely satisfied. The closest I got to it was when I got PointUI and made myself a few custom things for it. In the end the performance with video and games was not so good due to the graphics driver issue from long ago. Once I got Android I had all that I needed, a good graphics performer, didn't need to find too many extra apps to satisfy my needs, and a GUI that I truly enjoy. I am also a very heavy gmail user and I do not even have outlook installed in my computer.
I love linux and terminal, another point for Android at least in my case.
On the development side of things my heart is with C++ and C# so I still prefer the .NET side of things. Java which thankfully is similar enough to C# as to grab it and start working on it for the first time is a very interesting experience, still getting used to a new environment though.
I use this as my everyday phone and after months of continued use I can't complain. I messed with Winmo so much that it was sluggish and needed to do a hard reset every now and then anyways.
Thanks for your info. I am sure it will help other users decide to give this a try. This is the only way to know for sure what your next device will be. As for me, I don't think I can live without Android anymore.

x86/64 bit emulator for ARM Processor

So I was wondering if its possible for someone to create or start developing an application that can emulator x86/64 code on an arm architecture?

What x86 code, exactly, do you mean? Do you mean running native x86 code directly or do you mean taking Java or .NET code and running it?
Ultimately, pretty much *anything* is possible to emulate. However, emulating it in a way that it can run in a reasonable amount of time is unlikely to happen. There are just so many things that are limited in the RT version of the .NET Framework.

ok, im not exactly best qualified for this but ill try and explain
in short, no, you could potentially make an emulator for a given program, but to make some be all end all x86 emulator to cover everything would be massively inefficient and probably not possible
you primary obstacle is that RT uses managed code, that means MS tells you want you can and cant do, it gives you the frame work if you like and you can build what you want within that frame work but step outside it and do your own thing isn't possible (yet)
once you got over that barrier, next up would be to port every single function and call sent to the CPU to an ARM equivalent, ARM is like a tadpole compared to Blue Whale of X86 so it wont do everything on chip meaning youd need to also convert it in software to something it can do
It would be like trying to blow a golf ball through a garden hose
however, small limited programs that don't rely on many hardware functions and with limited calls outside of its own program would potentially be possible to emulate assuming you can get native code to work anyway

Surface RT - Paperweight
Surface Pro - Glorified Tablet/Notebook
Just go with the Pro, it will make life much easier. The whole emulator debacle isn't even necessary if you just go with the logical choice.
I mean the Tegra 3 is awful as an SoC--I don't know what moron said Quad A9's are better than A15's, not to mention the GPU is junk compared to an SGX.
Overall Micro$oft shot themselves in the foot.

qhdevon43 said:
So I was wondering if its possible for someone to create or start developing an application that can emulator x86/64 code on an arm architecture?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually Visual Studio 2012 could technically support building desktop applications to run on Surface RT and other RT (ARM) tablets. However, at this time, Microsoft is also allowing Microsoft signed applications. And, I heard that if you disabled that check in the registry, then you get blocked by RT. It is definitely possible that in the future, Microsoft might allow desktop applications to be recompiled for RT.
In the meantime, Remote Desktop is wonder in that I can connect to my Windows 8 laptop and use it to run any application with almost full touchscreen functionality. So, combining a Surface RT and a Windows 8 computer is ideal for me.

wrexus said:
Actually Visual Studio 2012 could technically support building desktop applications to run on Surface RT and other RT (ARM) tablets. However, at this time, Microsoft is also allowing Microsoft signed applications. And, I heard that if you disabled that check in the registry, then you get blocked by RT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Add it stands, you can't even really disable UAC without breaking Metro in full Windows 8 (the UI setting to disable it doesn't really disable it). They have that thing locked down pretty well!

You can enable test-sign mode on RT, this would allow you to run your own ARM desktop apps, signed by your own cert, not with MS one. This is absolutely legal, but it can be closed by MS in some of the new hotfixes (and they'll definitely will, when this mode would be used to run cracked apps).
It is really possible to make a working x86 CPU emulator that would allow you to run x86 windows programs on RT. Just remember my port of "heroes of might and magic" 1 and 2 for Windows Mobile - it was more difficult to make it, as WM had a more limited Win32 API than Windows RT has.
I'll make a nearly universal emulator for RT when I'll buy a device, project is already started and has good results. But I'm waiting for a device that is based on quad-core Snapdragon S4. I would not recommend buying Tegra devices, 4-core Krait beats them in CPU and 3D speed. And high CPU speed would be necessary for smooth x86 emulation.

Quad A9's are better than A15. If you wasnt too busy kissing jobs ass, you would know this. Tegra line is alot better that any apple "cpu"
Ace42 said:
Surface RT - Paperweight
Surface Pro - Glorified Tablet/Notebook
Just go with the Pro, it will make life much easier. The whole emulator debacle isn't even necessary if you just go with the logical choice.
I mean the Tegra 3 is awful as an SoC--I don't know what moron said Quad A9's are better than A15's, not to mention the GPU is junk compared to an SGX.
Overall Micro$oft shot themselves in the foot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

@Jaxidian: Disabling UAC disables Mandatory integrity Controls, which is how the sandboxes for both IE and Metro-style apps are implemented. Metro-style apps check, when they are launched, if they are running in such a sandbox, and exit if they aren't.
Disabling UAC is, and always was, a terrible, idiotic thing to do, and I truly don't know why MS made it an available behavior. Just set it to auto-elevate without UI instead, if you really can't stand having proper principle of least privilege in your OS. This is a little more complex (you have to use the Local Security Policy editor, which can be launched by typing "secpol.msc" into Run or by going into the Administrative Tools) but is a much better solution as things which explicitly want to be run with limited permissions (sandboxing) still can be.

@dazza9075: Dosbox is an x86 emulator that is already available on other ARM platforms. It just doesn't support the (many) x86 opcodes that have been added since the 386. It certainly can't do 64-bit. However, it's fine for running old DOS programs, including games. Somebody should port it to the Windows Store if possible, or at least see about making a homebrew build of it that we can run on RT devices. This is totally not my area of expertise or I'd do it myself.
A full x86 emulator, like Microsoft's old Virtual PC for Mac (except running on ARM instead of PPC), is technically possible. It's just hard. It sounds like some people are already working on this, though.

Regarding publishing DosBox, Bochs, Qemu, ScummVM and other emulators to Windows Store - they would be unable to pass the certification. Read the requirements here http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx
3.9 All app logic must originate from, and reside in, your app package
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For emulators - app logic resides in an emulated program that is typically not present in app package.
By the way, Microsoft Internet Explorer can't pass this check too - as it downloads and executes flash from web. But MS is already known for its double-standards.
The other reason why those apps may be refused:
3.5 Your app must fully support touch input, and fully support keyboard and mouse input
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Old programs (games at least) may be unusable without keyboard or mouse. My own program was refused for this reason, because it is unusable without hardware keyboard.
It is possible (and really easy) to port Bochs or DosBox for RT as a "desktop" application (making a "metro" port would be a bit more difficult). I can do that myself when I'll get hands on a Krait-based quad-core RT device, if someone would not port them earlier.
Regarding Tegra 3 vs Krait - Krait is not directly based on A9 nor on A15.

mamaich said:
You can enable test-sign mode on RT, this would allow you to run your own ARM desktop apps, signed by your own cert, not with MS one. This is absolutely legal, but it can be closed by MS in some of the new hotfixes (and they'll definitely will, when this mode would be used to run cracked apps).
It is really possible to make a working x86 CPU emulator that would allow you to run x86 windows programs on RT. Just remember my port of "heroes of might and magic" 1 and 2 for Windows Mobile - it was more difficult to make it, as WM had a more limited Win32 API than Windows RT has.
I'll make a nearly universal emulator for RT when I'll buy a device, project is already started and has good results. But I'm waiting for a device that is based on quad-core Snapdragon S4. I would not recommend buying Tegra devices, 4-core Krait beats them in CPU and 3D speed. And high CPU speed would be necessary for smooth x86 emulation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mamaich said:
Regarding publishing DosBox, Bochs, Qemu, ScummVM and other emulators to Windows Store - they would be unable to pass the certification. Read the requirements here http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx
For emulators - app logic resides in an emulated program that is typically not present in app package.
By the way, Microsoft Internet Explorer can't pass this check too - as it downloads and executes flash from web. But MS is already known for its double-standards.
The other reason why those apps may be refused:
Old programs (games at least) may be unusable without keyboard or mouse. My own program was refused for this reason, because it is unusable without hardware keyboard.
It is possible (and really easy) to port Bochs or DosBox for RT as a "desktop" application (making a "metro" port would be a bit more difficult). I can do that myself when I'll get hands on a Krait-based quad-core RT device, if someone would not port them earlier.
Regarding Tegra 3 vs Krait - Krait is not directly based on A9 nor on A15.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But its only a matter of time before we figure out a way to sideload metro apps without going through the store.

windows 95 running on surface rt

start windows 95 Help on surface rt, really need the program electronic workbench 5.12, via an x 86 emulator, it is not.
I will use bochs, downloaded the BIOS file and VGA in tab CPU put the bad CPU, but still does not work. The configuration file can only be downloaded in the format of the bxrc format, the txt he does not understand. If that happens, put Please setup and working windows 95 image

I kind of doubt anybody else is going to bother with the effort needed to get Win95 running (it would run very slowly, although I suppose it was intended to run on very slow CPUs...) on a first-gen Surface RT, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.
Anybody familiar with Bochs configuration want to weigh in on the configuration issue? I never really did much with it.

GoodDayToDie said:
I kind of doubt anybody else is going to bother with the effort needed to get Win95 running (it would run very slowly, although I suppose it was intended to run on very slow CPUs...) on a first-gen Surface RT, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.
Anybody familiar with Bochs configuration want to weigh in on the configuration issue? I never really did much with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really need the electronic workbench 5.12 "want to run it in any way, it is not a resource, the minimum requirements in the area of pentium 200 MHz

You'll be lucky if you get that equivalent of speed, actually. Typical estimate is order of 10x overhead for emulation, which means each core of the Surface RT is basically like a 130MHz x86 chip. Unless the emulator runs across multiple cores and the program does too (unlikely), you probably won't get much.
Have you considered running it on a real PC and just having the Surface remote desktop into it? Unless you're somewhere without an Internet connection, that's at least a little more likely to work.

Deleted due to forum software screwup

If they can run windows 95 on Android wear, Surface RT is certainly capable. If that's what you want to do, and have the ability to get it done knock yourself out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZx-LJH5J_I

Whether or not it's *possible* to run 95 wasn't really in question - people have, in fact, booted later versions of Windows via emulators - but rather whether it's a practical way to run even a very old program.
If anybody were still maintaining the RT x86 dynamic recompilation layer, I'd say to work on getting it working in that; the performance is a lot better when you don't have to support an entire OS and can execute OS library code in native instructions rather than emulating even the low-level functions. However, I don't think even the source code for that program was ever released. :-/

Weigh in here
Deleted due to forum software screwup
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What happened? HAHA
Also I would like to weigh in here. You (mickel2255) should have done a simple forum search. Gooddaytodie has a list and in it is an x86 emulator that I tested with electronic workbench 5.12 and it works no problem.
List of desktop apps for hacked RT devices http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=36534446
Click to expand...
Click to collapse