Hi all, I'm not sure if it is already done, but when I open memory to see how much I spend and how much is still left I see that the phone splits memory for data use and memory for program use. is it possible to combine those to program use only? or does the pro does that automatic when program mem is full? because I bought a microsdhc cart and all my data is doing on that.
thanks in advanced!
You must be new to Windows Mobile. Windows Mobile devices has 2 types of memory, RAM and ROM. Since WM5, RAM is used to maintain running processes. ROM is used as storage (unlike pre WM5, where RAM is splitted between storage and running programs and ROM storage is hidden).
Touch Pro has 288MB RAM (about 200MB usable) and 512MB ROM (about 318MB usable). This is due to the amount of RAM used by OS (while running) and ROM used by OS (in storage).
When you insert your MicroSD card, you'll see a new folder in File Explorer. It's called Storage Card.
So, in simple statement, no, you can't combined the memory as they are different types of memory.
in other words, its like trying to combine your desktop PC RAM memory with DVD disk storage space.
lol okay I very much understand what your saying. I am new at wm idd. but hell no with computers I actually do a study Informatica but just didnt knew how wm was made or never really looked into it. I thought it was just like a harddisk on a pc were you install your programs & data like music. and it uses the RAM memory for running programs I installed on the harddisk. but never mind very much thnx for the explanation!
Hi guys, i have recently flashed my uni with the awesome TML v8.81 Rom, I noticed there is a Flash Disk under My device. What's the purpose of that? Could anyone tell me what's the difference between installing software under my device and flash disk?
Many thanks
id like to know this too, as it seems the flash disk removes 15MB or so of much needed RAM, what is the purpose of it, so far I have installed everything on normal storage, should I be installing things like Opera on the flash disk because it runs faster?
types of memory
Ok, quick resume of memory:
There are four types of internal memory on the Universal (the quoted MB are from a 64MB G3 uni):
Code:
[B]Storage Memory[/B]
Type: Internal Storage
Size: Usually 43.72MB with 40MB free (depends on installation of full/vanilla ROM)
What: Your main storage for all installations on your device (including windows)
Use: This where the device ROM (eg WM6.x) and other device programs are stored (everything under \).
eh? : This can be considered much like your C: drive on a PC.
+info: Get a ROM that has just about everything you want.
Getting vanilla ROM and installing apps in Storage is likely to use more Storage than if you get ROM that has all apps you require.
I never install anything here unless I have no option, or it's a Today item.
Some programs will use this as cache or temp storage area.
[B]Program Memory[/B]
Type: Program (RAM)
Size: Usually 48-49MB with 30MB or less free (this figure lowers with the more Apps that are run, an initial 12MB is eaten by Windows)
What: This is your available memory for running programs. Program Memory is also for used by Boot and PagePool (usually 6MB).
Use: The more of this you have, the more programs you can run, and the faster memory hungry apps can run.
eh? : This can be considered much like your RAM on a PC
+info: The Today Screen items will also eat up this memory, so stay away from "bling" Today items if you want other memory hungry apps to run (like route navigators)
NB. This memory is NOT eaten up or reduced by any other medium (ie, FlashDisk). 30MB free is great, but 20MB is usual running for a 64MB Uni.
[B]FlashDisk[/B] (only available on G3 according to wiki [I]- someone clarify?[/I])
Type: Internal Storage
Size: Can be 10MB to 30MB - and is made available solely by what's left by the ROM and given to you by the cook
What: Extra storage which is retained through a soft-reset.
Use: Store programs you always want available (ie, not on SD), but don't want in your Storage Memory
eh?: This can be considered much like your second hard-drive on a PC.
+info: If important, choose cook and ROM wisely, otherwise install such stuff on approprate SD/Storage.
The FlashDisk is where I store my messages and attachments (and programs like music/video players if cook doesn't supply them).
NB. This doesn't take up any Program Memory. It's either made available by the cook, or if the cook doesn't make it available it's wasted space that you can't use.
[B]ExtendedROM[/B]
Type: Internal Storage
Size: Is usually 9.96MB
What: Extra memory which doesn't survive a soft-reset.
Use: Anything you don't mind losing :)
eh?: This could be considered as a RAMDrive on a PC (that is, in that it's volatile, but not that it takes up any Program Memory)
+info: I use this for all cache (eg PIExplorer, Opera etc)
NB. Again, this is either made available or wasted space you can't use (see FlashDisk NB).
[B]Storage Card[/B]
Type: External Storage
Size: Can be anything (I have seen up to 16GB)
What: Extra storage for programs, cache etc. Always slower than any of the above. (NB. If anyone really interested, I can get you some values here)
Use: Anything that doesn't fit into the Uni ;)
Install apps here that aren't required by the system (ie, non-Today items)
eh?: This could be considered as any removeable storage on a PC (even an SD card!!!)
+info: Don't put anything here that the system expects to exist (eg, Today items). I use it for maps, music, videos and all apps not supplied by ROM cook.
I only have use one huge SD card, so I install all my apps on it. You may want to reconsider your installations if you use more than one SD card.
However, Cotulla created a ROM for G3 that combined Storage (not program memory)
.
Nice answer that!
Now here is where it gets confusing I own a G4 with Tomals Rom on it and it has flash disk on it, I always thought it wasn't meant to. It does work too. I keep other small apps on it, it seems to load as fast as main memory. SD cads have a small time lag on a soft reset, so anything that needs to load on start up needs to be on board not SD. I'm not a cook so i'm sure there is a good answer but I often wondered why memory can't be repartitioned over to ram instead of flash disk or storage?
Jay
Yes, I think that wiki is wrong. I'm sure it's the ExtendedROM that's only on G3, whereas FD is down to the cook.
Hardware constraint on Uni means you can't partition Storage (or FD etc) over to Program Memory (RAM).
JonMorgan said:
Yes, I think that wiki is wrong. I'm sure it's the ExtendedROM that's only on G3, whereas FD is down to the cook.
Hardware constraint on Uni means you can't partition Storage (or FD etc) over to Program Memory (RAM).
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No I get extended rom now too. things have moved on since the WiKi was made I guess.
Jay
Guys,
Is there somewhere else who create an application that can make SDHC card as device memory?
Thanx.
irmanpribadi said:
Guys,
Is there somewhere else who create an application that can make SDHC card as device memory?
Thanx.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The storage card can only be used as a storage card, not for device memory. nice idea though, it would be nice to have 16gb of ram
Regards
Jay
maybe this is not about ram but about having the sd card as primary partition, which might be possible although it has never been done before. in wm2003 the ramdrive was the primary partition and the "storage" was listed as a storage card. these days the storage is the first (and on most devices and roms only) partition. but when a ramdisk is added, it is listed as a storage card. that means the order of the drives is variable and a storage card could also be the first partition.
but what would you want with a theretical answer like that? an expert rom chef, who started with cooking wm2003 might know the answer or could do that for you.
but for all realistic means, you should simply try and save all documents, pictures, videos and music, install bigger programs, derive the cache for your browser, store email attachments all on the sd card. the only problems with completely leaving out on the internal storage, especially for program installation, is that it is slow.
It should be possible but you will probably need to cook a new ROM to get it working. It's mostly just a matter of telling CE which mounted volume you want to mount as root for the emulated objectstore.
This document on MSDN should give you an idea of what to do:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms885839.aspx
The MPx200's WM5/WM6 ROMs do this already. If you do this, keep in mind you likely won't ever be able to eject the card while the device is booted as the registry will be stored there. Now, maybe you could write some sort of app that would dismount/remount and reinitialize the registry at the press of a button but that doesn't seem too practical unless you have no choice as on the MPx200. Another workaround might be to store the registry hives on an internal flash partition and store the rest of the system folders on the SD card.
As for implementing the RAM/ROM based filesystem like in WM2003, I'm not sure. The Windows CE 5.x kernel used for Windows Mobile 5/6/6.1/6.5 certainly won't prevent you from doing it but I'm unsure the Universal's hardware can persist the ram contents between "soft" resets. If it can, then I imagine it's only a matter of using an NK.exe that doesn't force a clean reboot and using a different filesys.exe than the included ROM only/hive registry configuration it ships with. Heh, if you ever looked at the MS news groups you will see a whole bunch of posts by OEMS getting yelled at for using the ram based configuration in their beta WM5 roms. "Not supported" doesn't mean it can't be done and work, it just means MS doesnt' want you to do it for either marketing or other reasons.
Chef_Tony said:
maybe this is not about ram but about having the sd card as primary partition, which might be possible although it has never been done before. in wm2003 the ramdrive was the primary partition and the "storage" was listed as a storage card. these days the storage is the first (and on most devices and roms only) partition. but when a ramdisk is added, it is listed as a storage card. that means the order of the drives is variable and a storage card could also be the first partition.
but what would you want with a theretical answer like that? an expert rom chef, who started with cooking wm2003 might know the answer or could do that for you.
...
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Click to collapse
The ramdisk you are talking about is very different from the Windows CE object store used in WM2003 and many current non-PPC WinCE devices.
They don't even use the same filesystem! The ramdisk driver commonly circulated on these forums basically just formats/mounts a chunk of RAM as a FAT partition. It can't be resized and appears to the OS as any other flash card. You can even format it with StorageTools or whatever. The dynamic ramdisk or objectstore is built into the WinCE OS. It uses a proprietary filesystem optimized for RAM usage that is closely integrated into the kernel. As I understand it, It's more like a database than a filesystem like FAT. The registry, files and DBs are all stored in the same internal format and then abstracted by the OS and it's APIs. It couldn't even be disabled until more recent WinCE versions. More info: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa910544.aspx
What exactly is the problem? Im thinking of getting the focus and I keep hearing these SD card issues but what "exactly" is the problem? I understand that once you put it in, your SD card is done, and that if you want to remove it you have to wipe everything, I understand all that, but what are the problems that arise? I have a 16gb micro sd that I have used on all my devices no problem, do files get corrupted or something? Does it just not read it?
There aren't any problems in that sense. The only real "problem" is that not all MicroSD cards work with WP7. In addition, hot-swapping isn't supported, because in effect, the MicroSD's memory is added to the internal memory, and the system then doesn't differentiate between storing on the sd card and that that's built into the phone, and thus stuff is spread all over all of them.
There aren't any "problems" as such that I know of though.
On an ending note - WP7 is awesome ^__^ Honestly the best user experience I've ever had with a phone (esp. having come from Android >.<) ^__^
loading a microSD card will turn it into a secure card. once this happens no other device will even read it (except a nokia n8) making it extremely difficult to format if it doesn't work nicely with windows phone 7. That is the main issue. rest already mentioned.
GenkaiMade gave his version which is correct but I thought I would explain it my way.
Take your average memory card and device. What are some of the default expectations you have when using one?
1) You should be able to get any MicroSD card on the market and be able to put it into your phone with it working.
2) You should be able to remove the memory card from the device and put it in a different device (such as another phone or PC) and have it still work like normally.
The problem with Windows Phone 7 is that it breaks these two rules.
1) Many of the higher rated MicroSD card flat-out don't work on WP7. This is because of the method WP7 uses to read/write to memory card. You can find more specific details on why this is but I will just keep it simple. There are many user-created lists which list which MicroSD cards do work with WP7.
2) You can NOT hot-swap your memory card once it is inserted into phone. Why? SD stands for Secure Digital which means there is a security aspect capable on the card. Microsoft takes advantage of this in WP7. Once you put your new card in your phone automatically reformats and locks it down. If you then take out the card and place it in another phone or a PC it will not be recognized, almost as if it is invisible. And the worst part, there is nothing* you can do about it. Once you pair a memory card and WP7 phone they are joined for life.
Why does this suck? If you buy a 8GB card now you simply can't upgrade to a 16/32Gb one down the road without losing all of your data and having a useless MicroSD card. The old card would become a better Frisbee than data storage device. This is why most WP7 phones don't let the users have access to the memory card. Microsoft knew this would happen and thus pushed manufacturers to not have the card easily accessible. There is even much talk that the memory card in the Samsung Focus was meant to be glued to the phone to prevent swapping but somewhere along the line that idea was scrapped.
* Note: Technically there is ONE thing you can do. If you own or have access to a Nokia N8 phone it can read the locked down MicroSD card and reformat to something any device can recognize. Essentially undo the problem. But how many people have easy access to one? The answer, almost nobody.
Quicksilver4648 said:
GenkaiMade gave his version which is correct but I thought I would explain it my way.
Take your average memory card and device. What are some of the default expectations you have when using one?
1) You should be able to get any MicroSD card on the market and be able to put it into your phone with it working.
2) You should be able to remove the memory card from the device and put it in a different device (such as another phone or PC) and have it still work like normally.
The problem with Windows Phone 7 is that it breaks these two rules.1) Many of the higher rated MicroSD card flat-out don't work on WP7. This is because of the method WP7 uses to read/write to memory card. You can find more specific details on why this is but I will just keep it simple. There are many user-created lists which list which MicroSD cards do work with WP7.
2) You can NOT hot-swap your memory card once it is inserted into phone. Why? SD stands for Secure Digital which means there is a security aspect capable on the card. Microsoft takes advantage of this in WP7. Once you put your new card in your phone automatically reformats and locks it down. If you then take out the card and place it in another phone or a PC it will not be recognized, almost as if it is invisible. And the worst part, there is nothing* you can do about it. Once you pair a memory card and WP7 phone they are joined for life.
Why does this suck? If you buy a 8GB card now you simply can't upgrade to a 16/32Gb one down the road without losing all of your data and having a useless MicroSD card. The old card would become a better Frisbee than data storage device. This is why most WP7 phones don't let the users have access to the memory card. Microsoft knew this would happen and thus pushed manufacturers to not have the card easily accessible. There is even much talk that the memory card in the Samsung Focus was meant to be glued to the phone to prevent swapping but somewhere along the line that idea was scrapped.
* Note: Technically there is ONE thing you can do. If you own or have access to a Nokia N8 phone it can read the locked down MicroSD card and reformat to something any device can recognize. Essentially undo the problem. But how many people have easy access to one? The answer, almost nobody.
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You're wrong. It has nothing to do with what you said. Lol @ breaking rules. They aren't breaking anything...
SD Card DRM is in the spec, it is only given to people who license it. That's what WP7 uses. It's locks down the storage system with a DRM key and that's why other devices (barring Nokias) can't see it - most SD Card clients don't support SD Card DRM.
Nokia (Symbian, and maybe Maemo, but I'm unsure on that) is the only other mobile OS that supports it, and that's why it can reformat the card (but cannot read any data on it, of course, since it doesn't have the decryption key). When you power on the phone, the WP7 pre-boot environment unlocks the card via a key on the device the same way you unlock an encrypted system drive on a PC. If a device cannot supply this key, they cannot mount the card.
If you swap the card, you have to hard reset the device because the storage is spanned and the decryption key on the device no longer corresponds to the SD card in the device (but due to spanned storage the device would malfunction even if it were to boot up). The new card is encrypted and added to the pool on a hard reset, and the [new] key is put on the device so that it can be mounted when the device is powered on.
It's pretty damn simple, and has been written in plain English in many threads; yet people still FAIL to understand it.
Have you ever thought there must be a reason why they call them SECURE Digital Cards? Or did you think Secure = taking it out one device and just plugging it into the other and taking the data off of it?
The Storage in WP7 was never meant to be swappable. Microsoft has always said it would not be. It's your own business if you want to play around swapping cards like Russian Roulette.
As far as which work with WP7. It requires higher Random I/O speeds than most SD Cards provide, and that doesn't correspond to Class Type. Also, a card can work fine for sometimes weeks at a time and then start to fail, so replacing it yourself is at your own risk.
And most manufacturers and carriers will void you warranty if you mess with the SD Card.
In that respect using memory cards is nonsense on WP7.
If you cannot do what you want with this, what was a rule and still is a rule on the market today,
they should just build devices with inbuilt memory like iPhone and don't talk about memory cards anymore. That would be simple.
Current situation is a mess.
So what cards are compatible now? I Googled it and the first response was 'San Disk Pulls WP7 compatible memory cards' and I figured that wasn't a good sign.
williammel said:
So what cards are compatible now? I Googled it and the first response was 'San Disk Pulls WP7 compatible memory cards' and I figured that wasn't a good sign.
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they only pulled it because MS wants to do official testing and release an official list.
refer to this webpage for more info: http://mobilitydigest.com/the-sd-cards-that-dodont-work-with-windows-phone/
Here it is in KB form from Microsoft:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2450831
N8ter said:
You're wrong. It has nothing to do with what you said. Lol @ breaking rules. They aren't breaking anything...
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It was a figure of speech. I know Microsoft didn't break any real "rules". This is what I posted:
Quicksilver4648 said:
...
What are some of the default expectations you have when using one?
...
The problem with Windows Phone 7 is that it breaks these two rules.
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I said "rules" I implied "expectations". Microsoft did nothing wrong, outside of communicating with the end users, with how WP7 manages MicroSD cards.
And I clearly know why certain MicroSD cards will or wont work. I just didn't feel like explaining it because it would take a lot of time.
It's time to start expecting people to use these technologies in a secure manner.
The media industry does not support platforms that leave them open to be attacked by software pirates.
Information is power, and no one likes their info stolen.
There are many reasons.
iOS phones encrypt their storate. And the reason why they don't support external storage cards is probably the same reason why Microsoft uses the SD-DRM and encrypts the WP7 storage.
I don't know how Symbian handles its storage, but I'm pretty sure that OS at least supports Encrypting the file system on SD cards. It supports pretty much everything ele.
Right, let me give my own perspective on this.
Until recently I was a WM6 user. I regularly upgraded my phone, and the last one was an HD2. WM phones never came with any real amount of storage, just a piffling amount of internal memory (what, 500MB?). I was therefore faced with the added cost and hassle of having to purchase a memory card and insert it into the phone. This was a bit like buying a PC without a hard disk and having to buy and install your own. It was an added hassle and expense.
Once you had your SD card inserted, you were then faced with the decision of where to store the data for each of your apps. Take email - do you store all your emails and attachments on the internal memory, thus using up a good chunk of that precious resource, but having it work quickly, or do you store it all on the SD card, where there's a lot more room but it's slow and clunky, and if anyone steals your phone they can pop the card out and get at the data? When you install apps, you're again given the choice of where to install it. Do you go for the speed of internal storage? Do you put it on the SD card, knowing if you ever pop out the card, your app will be unavailable? Decisions, decisions.... Too much damned complexity. The average user shouldn't be faced with these choices, if I install an app, it should just go on the phone wherever, period.
Not only that, once my card was in there, I never once removed it. The majority of my apps were on it, my emails, and all my media. I totally filled it with media. Popping out that card would more or less break my phone. My apps wouldn't work, my emails would be missing......so I never did. Nor did I ever use it as a mass storage drive....because there was never any free space on it. Instead I had a 32GB USB memory key hanging from my keychain - that was my portable mass storage solution.
Not only this, if I wanted to put media onto the card, I had to connect to the PC and drag and drop my stuff directly onto the phone. What a hassle! Doing this didn't optimize the size of the photos for the phone's screen. It didn't drop the bitrate of my mp3s, it didn't convert videos to the right size and format. All that had to be done manually, and I never bothered, so my media took up a lot more room than it had to. So inefficient.
So, given that I never removed the card, and that doing so would hose my phone, and that it was always full, so never got used as mass storage, and that it was insecure, and an added expense and hassle, and putting media on the card was a manual process, what would I have done in a next generation phone to cure all these issues?
Well, I would have made sure the phone came with plenty of onboard memory, and I would have removed the distinction between internal memory and the "card" so it was all one storage container. I would have secured the memory so even if it could be removed, the data couldn't be read in another device. I would have made sure the memory was fast enough to deal properly with a modern OS. I would automate the process of converting and downsizing media by using software on the PC to automatically perform those tasks. I'd also make the process wireless and fully automatic. I'd.......oh wait, that's what Microsoft already did in WP7.
So I'm happy, even if you lot ain't.
I just got 2 Focus's for the Wife and I. Using the SD card sticky in the Focus forum here as a general help, I purchased a PNY 8Gb C4 for the Wifes, and a Patriot 16Gb C2 for mine (Frys, and the Patroit was the last one in the store from the Display! No one buys C2 anymore).
The back overlay on both devices mentions memory cards, and quick startup quide shows you how to install them and what happens if you remove them.
I put the Cards in last night (phones just arrived yesterday), formatted (hold the Power/Camera/Vol Down at the same time, answer questions) and in a few seconds each system was formated. Both are working fine right now.
Right now though doesn't mean much, many in the SD thread are having issues after several weeks, though it seems it more prevalent with the 32Gb cards. YMMV...
What I find goofy about the whole thing is that it has been stated that 7 needs random read/write, which is not measured by class rating, and can vary even within the same type of card, but very few people have posted numbers showing that they tested their cards at all before gleefully sacrificing them to the hungry maw of the Focus. Seriously guys, do more testing and post more numbers before rendering your cards unreadable to a PC. It'll help us all to better understand what works and what doesn't.
This bites.. I always knew that the card inside the wp7 was secured, but I always had faith in the power of this forum. Especially in recovery situations. Now I have lost a lot of irreplaceable data, like dozens of pictures of my young child. It seems I had a little too much faith.
Thank you for this information. it was very helpful. I have already moved away from Windows phones to android, and am going to start using nandroid. Hopefully this won't happen again.
This may be obvious to some people but not all...myself included
If you find that your apps/games (or anything else) stored on your sd card are starting to take longer to load than usual, try connecting it to your computer and running disk defragmenter (or whichever program you prefer).
I did it to mine after a good 6+ months of use and found that it was heavily fragmented (took a few hours to complete on class 2 8gb so left it running overnight!)
If that doesn't make much difference then you might want to invest in a higher class sd card which of course will give you faster read/write speeds
EDIT: sorry i just realised this is in the wrong section!!!
To have more of an impact you can change the readahead value in sys/devices/virtual/bdi/179:0/read_ahead_kb from 128Kb to whatever suits your SD card type. In my case 2028Kb.
This cannot be achieved just by editing the file as it is overwritten on boot. Google for it or search market if you want an app to do it for you if you are rooted. Tasker works also.
Using a PC to defragment your phone's SD card can be bad. Bad as in, the computer will treat your SD card as if it's some memory expansion to itself. It will move files to places where it "thinks" they should be but actually they're in the correct place for the device. This is based on past experiences when I did it and that's exactly what it did. Example in the Android Secure folder (asec files), it caused apps which were moved to the SD card to have corrupted data (cause it depleted the values of some of the asec files). The method nobnut stated is the better option.
If you must do it on a pc, rather than use Windows own defragmenter, use an SD defragmenter program, like http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/sd/download/index.html.