Short Story:
Is there a way to change what my HTC device thinks is program only RAM vs Storage only?
Long Story:
I have an HTC Titan, but thats not important as this is a standard question. I couldn't find a similar question or answer by searching the forums, but if someone has a better search keyword for me to use, post it here too.
Is there a way to expand what the device thinks is Program memory? I'm trying to install CoD to test the Mogul (even if you post that it doesnt work I still like to know my original question). I have about 20mb left of "program" memory, 130mb left of "storage", and a 512micro sd empty (minor IE cache and attachments on it). I'm of course assuming that the ROM just makes those setting in the RAM and its not two seperate chips.
from wm5 ms changed the way memory is handled / works
pda's used to use flash for the rom
and ram devived between application and storage
but as batt death would delete peoples storage
and flash becomming dirt cheap
they changed it so ram was only! used
for application memory
and flash was used for storage
so the slider to devive oneself is no longer present
there are tools at least for some devices which make a ramdisk for
the pda which take some of the application memory and let one
install stuff on it you
can check buzzdev.net to see if that tool DiscOnChip is out for your devices
So they are fundamentally different memory types and chips?
yes
you can compare it with pc memory vs. pc harddisk
hhmm is that a new spam tactics ?
to post spam inside threads to make deleting harder?
Fair enough...thanks...shame it turned out harder then I though
.....that is a very interesting spam tatic...never seen that...*wonders off to find an mod*
yes it's harder after wm5 but with buzzdev.net's chipondisk program it handle it
not sure how many devices it support as it was mainly made for old devices
where they only have very limited storage space
and "alot" of memory because they were made for the old wm2003 and prev
memory deviding system
It just seems to me that, while yes I like storage but you give us a SD slot so why make only 47mb Program and 162mb Storage....
Hi guys, i have recently flashed my uni with the awesome TML v8.81 Rom, I noticed there is a Flash Disk under My device. What's the purpose of that? Could anyone tell me what's the difference between installing software under my device and flash disk?
Many thanks
id like to know this too, as it seems the flash disk removes 15MB or so of much needed RAM, what is the purpose of it, so far I have installed everything on normal storage, should I be installing things like Opera on the flash disk because it runs faster?
types of memory
Ok, quick resume of memory:
There are four types of internal memory on the Universal (the quoted MB are from a 64MB G3 uni):
Code:
[B]Storage Memory[/B]
Type: Internal Storage
Size: Usually 43.72MB with 40MB free (depends on installation of full/vanilla ROM)
What: Your main storage for all installations on your device (including windows)
Use: This where the device ROM (eg WM6.x) and other device programs are stored (everything under \).
eh? : This can be considered much like your C: drive on a PC.
+info: Get a ROM that has just about everything you want.
Getting vanilla ROM and installing apps in Storage is likely to use more Storage than if you get ROM that has all apps you require.
I never install anything here unless I have no option, or it's a Today item.
Some programs will use this as cache or temp storage area.
[B]Program Memory[/B]
Type: Program (RAM)
Size: Usually 48-49MB with 30MB or less free (this figure lowers with the more Apps that are run, an initial 12MB is eaten by Windows)
What: This is your available memory for running programs. Program Memory is also for used by Boot and PagePool (usually 6MB).
Use: The more of this you have, the more programs you can run, and the faster memory hungry apps can run.
eh? : This can be considered much like your RAM on a PC
+info: The Today Screen items will also eat up this memory, so stay away from "bling" Today items if you want other memory hungry apps to run (like route navigators)
NB. This memory is NOT eaten up or reduced by any other medium (ie, FlashDisk). 30MB free is great, but 20MB is usual running for a 64MB Uni.
[B]FlashDisk[/B] (only available on G3 according to wiki [I]- someone clarify?[/I])
Type: Internal Storage
Size: Can be 10MB to 30MB - and is made available solely by what's left by the ROM and given to you by the cook
What: Extra storage which is retained through a soft-reset.
Use: Store programs you always want available (ie, not on SD), but don't want in your Storage Memory
eh?: This can be considered much like your second hard-drive on a PC.
+info: If important, choose cook and ROM wisely, otherwise install such stuff on approprate SD/Storage.
The FlashDisk is where I store my messages and attachments (and programs like music/video players if cook doesn't supply them).
NB. This doesn't take up any Program Memory. It's either made available by the cook, or if the cook doesn't make it available it's wasted space that you can't use.
[B]ExtendedROM[/B]
Type: Internal Storage
Size: Is usually 9.96MB
What: Extra memory which doesn't survive a soft-reset.
Use: Anything you don't mind losing :)
eh?: This could be considered as a RAMDrive on a PC (that is, in that it's volatile, but not that it takes up any Program Memory)
+info: I use this for all cache (eg PIExplorer, Opera etc)
NB. Again, this is either made available or wasted space you can't use (see FlashDisk NB).
[B]Storage Card[/B]
Type: External Storage
Size: Can be anything (I have seen up to 16GB)
What: Extra storage for programs, cache etc. Always slower than any of the above. (NB. If anyone really interested, I can get you some values here)
Use: Anything that doesn't fit into the Uni ;)
Install apps here that aren't required by the system (ie, non-Today items)
eh?: This could be considered as any removeable storage on a PC (even an SD card!!!)
+info: Don't put anything here that the system expects to exist (eg, Today items). I use it for maps, music, videos and all apps not supplied by ROM cook.
I only have use one huge SD card, so I install all my apps on it. You may want to reconsider your installations if you use more than one SD card.
However, Cotulla created a ROM for G3 that combined Storage (not program memory)
.
Nice answer that!
Now here is where it gets confusing I own a G4 with Tomals Rom on it and it has flash disk on it, I always thought it wasn't meant to. It does work too. I keep other small apps on it, it seems to load as fast as main memory. SD cads have a small time lag on a soft reset, so anything that needs to load on start up needs to be on board not SD. I'm not a cook so i'm sure there is a good answer but I often wondered why memory can't be repartitioned over to ram instead of flash disk or storage?
Jay
Yes, I think that wiki is wrong. I'm sure it's the ExtendedROM that's only on G3, whereas FD is down to the cook.
Hardware constraint on Uni means you can't partition Storage (or FD etc) over to Program Memory (RAM).
JonMorgan said:
Yes, I think that wiki is wrong. I'm sure it's the ExtendedROM that's only on G3, whereas FD is down to the cook.
Hardware constraint on Uni means you can't partition Storage (or FD etc) over to Program Memory (RAM).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I get extended rom now too. things have moved on since the WiKi was made I guess.
Jay
Can anyone direct me to a guide somewhere?
I'd like to make an ext partition? Or would I? Is Swapper 2 just as fast? Tradoffs? Anyone run into their sd card wearing out yet?
bueler?
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The consensus seem to be "do not use" except as 'last resort', and only needed on phones with 256MB or less of mem.
I wrote this, and I am waiting for a technical review from some experts in this field.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=897823
kschang said:
The consensus seem to be "do not use" except as 'last resort', and only needed on phones with 256MB or less of mem.
I wrote this, and I am waiting for a technical review from some experts in this field.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=897823
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have 256MB ram
At the moment, Compcache is good enough, but I can't help but wonder how much better it could be with swap instead of Compcache.
edit: "For example, If you have a 256MB system (shows as 262MB due to 1024 vs. 1000 KB size difference) and have 130MB of apps and data/cache loaded, then that leaves about 130MB for the system to actually RUN programs. That sounds like a lot, but in reality that is not enough, since the system itself takes 50-80MB, and services will take up another 30-50MB, leaving almost nothing. "
quick review, you don't appear to be differentiating between RAM and Flash? Having more apps installed shouldn't increase RAM usage at all. Unless I gravely misunderstand the Android OS, if I install a new program, it resides in the system flash, not the RAM, until I run it, at which point it gets loaded to RAM. When the system needs memory and no swap or Compcache is in use, it writes the state of the application to the flash and removes it from RAM.
What the swap does is similar to what compcache does-- compresses apps that are currently in RAM, and moves them to the swap space. In the case of Compcache, this is in the RAM. But since you're compressing it, background apps don't take nearly as much RAM, and you get an app switching speedboost because the processor can uncompress the compcache'd program, "move" it to RAM, compress the currently running program in RAM, and "move" it to the compcache. Forgive me if you already said this, I can't read the entire thing at the moment.
As for swap, I'm not sure if the processor compresses before going to the hard swap file, I don't think that it does-- when android starts getting low on RAM, it moves what was in RAM, to the swap on the SD-card. Since it does this when the system is low on RAM, and not when the system runs out of RAM, you never notice it. Reading the app back from the SD card happens almost instantaneously, because the sd cards can be read from at a speed of at least 20MB/s, maybe more. When you're restoring an app to RAM, 20MB/s is plenty.
edit2: I'm sorry but this guide is too vague to be anything more than moderately informative. Comments like:
-"CompCache, or "compressed cache", is handled by the Linux kernel. It takes a portion of your memory, and use it as a cache space, but compressed. By using on-the-fly compression it is able to make your memory appear to be a bit larger than it actually is. However, the result is slower performance.
This is usually NOT tweakble without mod ROM such as Cyanogen Mod. The kernel also must support this feature, and not all do. This also slows your phone. "
-"...swap space by either creating a swap file or a swap partition. This adds a lot of read/write action to your SD card and may substantially decrease its usable life."
-"This really slows your phone."
People wouldn't be doing these things for no reason. Compcache does not "make your memory appear a bit larger", when it at least doubles the amount of usable RAM-- when you allocate 60MB, if you average 75% compression (I usually see between 65% and 80%), do you know how much RAM this effectively nets you? Over at least 60MB extra, usually about 80! So my phone goes from having 256MB ram to having 340 effectively. Having your processor overclocked minimizes any slowdown from the compression/decompression; I haven't noticed any slowdown, and having the "extra" RAM definitely has made my phone more able to multitask.
You basically discourage users from doing ANYTHING like swapping, compcaching, etc to their phone, saying it "slows it down" and "can substantially decrease your SD Card's life". My experience has been otherwise regarding slowing it down, and regarding the SD card, the only part that would actually go bad is the swap partition. If you put that at the end of the drive, when it goes bad, you'll know, and you can just move the partition back 300MB and put your 300MB swap there. We haven't heard of any users' cards going bad from this yet. Also, if you have a class 6+ SD Card, they implement wear leveling on the card, so you don't need to worry about wearing out any individual bits.
Sorry, I'm just not digging it.
rancur3p1c said:
I have 256MB ram
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Me too, me too...
At the moment, Compcache is good enough, but I can't help but wonder how much better it could be with swap instead of Compcache.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So try it. With CM612, I have CompCache AND Swap (through Swapper2 / 128 MB) turned on. It slows down every once in a while but my programs don't crash any more.
edit: "For example, If you have a 256MB system (shows as 262MB due to 1024 vs. 1000 KB size difference) and have 130MB of apps and data/cache loaded, then that leaves about 130MB for the system to actually RUN programs. That sounds like a lot, but in reality that is not enough, since the system itself takes 50-80MB, and services will take up another 30-50MB, leaving almost nothing. "
quick review, you don't appear to be differentiating between RAM and Flash? Having more apps installed shouldn't increase RAM usage at all. Unless I gravely misunderstand the Android OS, if I install a new program, it resides in the system flash, not the RAM, until I run it, at which point it gets loaded to RAM. When the system needs memory and no swap or Compcache is in use, it writes the state of the application to the flash and removes it from RAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At first I thought the same way you did, until I started looking in "diskusage".
According to diskusage, there is no separate RAM. 256MB is 256MB. App storage is where everything goes, and what's left is used to load services and such. The numbers I added up matches. I have 256 MB phone. 100 is for apps, which leaves about 150-160. System itself takes 50-80 (acore, gapps, phone, system...) then add a few services and you're down to 30-40 MB free to actually run the programs. The numbers seem to match up to what's shown at the bottom of "Manage Services".
I know it's weird, but perusal of Android developers kit doesn't contradict this understanding.
What the swap does is similar to what compcache does-- compresses apps that are currently in RAM, and moves them to the swap space. In the case of Compcache, this is in the RAM. But since you're compressing it, background apps don't take nearly as much RAM, and you get an app switching speedboost because the processor can uncompress the compcache'd program, "move" it to RAM, compress the currently running program in RAM, and "move" it to the compcache. Forgive me if you already said this, I can't read the entire thing at the moment.
As for swap, I'm not sure if the processor compresses before going to the hard swap file, I don't think that it does-- when android starts getting low on RAM, it moves what was in RAM, to the swap on the SD-card. Since it does this when the system is low on RAM, and not when the system runs out of RAM, you never notice it. Reading the app back from the SD card happens almost instantaneously, because the sd cards can be read from at a speed of at least 20MB/s, maybe more. When you're restoring an app to RAM, 20MB/s is plenty.
edit2: I'm sorry but this guide is too vague to be anything more than moderately informative. Comments like:
-"CompCache, or "compressed cache", is handled by the Linux kernel. It takes a portion of your memory, and use it as a cache space, but compressed. By using on-the-fly compression it is able to make your memory appear to be a bit larger than it actually is. However, the result is slower performance.
This is usually NOT tweakble without mod ROM such as Cyanogen Mod. The kernel also must support this feature, and not all do. This also slows your phone. "
-"...swap space by either creating a swap file or a swap partition. This adds a lot of read/write action to your SD card and may substantially decrease its usable life."
-"This really slows your phone."
People wouldn't be doing these things for no reason. Compcache does not "make your memory appear a bit larger", when it at least doubles the amount of usable RAM-- when you allocate 60MB, if you average 75% compression (I usually see between 65% and 80%), do you know how much RAM this effectively nets you? Over at least 60MB extra, usually about 80! So my phone goes from having 256MB ram to having 340 effectively. Having your processor overclocked minimizes any slowdown from the compression/decompression; I haven't noticed any slowdown, and having the "extra" RAM definitely has made my phone more able to multitask.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It also seriously depends on your SD card. I've read reports on Phandroid that said class 6 or 8 microSD cards would provide almost lag-free swaps, but that's on a G1 (which is already a slow phone).
You basically discourage users from doing ANYTHING like swapping, compcaching, etc to their phone, saying it "slows it down" and "can substantially decrease your SD Card's life". My experience has been otherwise regarding slowing it down, and regarding the SD card, the only part that would actually go bad is the swap partition. If you put that at the end of the drive, when it goes bad, you'll know, and you can just move the partition back 300MB and put your 300MB swap there. We haven't heard of any users' cards going bad from this yet. Also, if you have a class 6+ SD Card, they implement wear leveling on the card, so you don't need to worry about wearing out any individual bits.
Sorry, I'm just not digging it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Constantly reading and writing the file will cause that area to get much heavier use and eventually cause it to fail the bootup "checking SD card". The only question is how much life is taken away.
I am running my Droid on 24% CompCache AND 128MB Swap right now. Occasional lag but otherwise runs quite well. It's also overclocked to 1.2 GHz with P3Droid's kernel. So I do practice somewhat of what I preach...
so if I have 512MB of ROM, and 256MB of RAM, and I fill up my ROM with programs, how much RAM do I have?
I don't follow how what you said can be.
SD Card writes-- SanDisk guarantees theirs for 100K writes to any given sector...that's good enough for the swap to not be a problem in the near future IMHO.
let's put it this way...
Here's the specs of Moto Droid from Motorola itself (http://developer.motorola.com/products/droid/)
RAM 256 MB
FLASH ROM 512 MB
USER STORAGE AVAILABLE (MAX) 256 MB
So the REST of the ROM clearly is to hold the Android OS itself. The actual programs you can load for running? 256MB. That's app storage.
I've always wondered if there's a way to read the actual ROM contents and enumerate that... But that's for another topic.
Found this useful post: boot process of Android OS
http://www.androidenea.com/2009/06/android-boot-process-from-power-on.html
Furthermore, I noticed that the "built-in" apps (i.e. bloatware) are actually just stuff left in the "system" dir which can only be accessed with root permission. So they are NOT store in "ROM" per se, but more like "part of boot rom".
I have to find explanation on how an app is loaded, but that helps...
Aha, so that's the term they used... Application Lifecycle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITfRuRkf2TM
Okay, I take back what I said. Apps are loaded into RAM, but HOW things are allocated wasn't that clear.
From what I understand, apps, when they are killed by system, some exit gracefully by writing their instance "state" (data and cache) to app storage. Some just exits.
Browser will write the URL, for example. When the browser is "resumed", the process is loaded, then the instance loads back the URL and it's as if nothing happened.
I'll have to revise the paper, AND I haven't figured out what to say about swap and compcache yet.
Made some corrections.
On 256MB machine, 30MB is used by deep system buffers (not part of OS), another 32 for OS cache, so about 190 or so is available the OS itself to load apps and services, and just the default gapps, system, phone, and so on is about 60MB. So a fresh clean phone should ahve no more than 120-130 MB free. If you load a couple apps with autostart services, it'll quickly drop below 50MB.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2298208/how-to-discover-memory-usage-of-my-application-in-android
Another piece of the puzzle... The numbers at the bottom of "Manage Services" is as explained below:
(quoting from http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/02/service-api-changes-starting-with.html )
"Finally, along the bottom of the screen are some obscure numbers. If you know how to interpret them, this gives you a lot of information on the memory status of your device:
* Avail: 38MB+114MB in 25 says that the device has 38MB of completely free (or likely used for unrequired caches) memory, and has another 114MB of available memory in 25 background processes it can kill at any time.
* Other: 32MB in 3 says that the device has 32MB of unavailable memory in 3 unkillable processes (that is, processes that are currently considered to be foreground and must be kept running)"
The order is reversed in Android OS 2.2. Mine says
Other: 75MB in 5 Avail: 18MB + 20 MB in 3
Which should mean 75MB in 5 unterminable tasks, 18 MB free (or can be freed easily), plus another 20 MB used by 3 processes that can be killed to free up.
ProCrank says...
39911K System_server
15756K acore
12982K swiftkey
10136K DIY Screensaver (lock screen)
9392K Phone (system)
9093K ATKfroyo
6834K Terminal
3984K JuiceDefender
3785K Screebl
3482K system MMS
3329 SeePU
3244K Bluetooth
3199K SetCPU
1979K Zygote (which is Dalvik init)
1425K Mediaserver
and the rest is native system code well under 1MB in size.
If you add System_server, Phone, Zygote, Acore, and foreground app (terminal and procrank) you get about 75MB. It would be nice if that screen TELLS you which program it considers to be unterminable, but, oh well...