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On board android development

Im a fairly knowledgeable computer user without a computer!
I love to write programs!
It really is a shame that there is not an onboard development kit for this platform.
I have tried several implementations available in the market. None of them seem to satisfy my thirst.
Before I gave up on sl 4 a, I learned a little about android virtual machine. When coupled with the right tools, and knowledge, full access to the android java api are possible.
Being that I don't have a computer, I cannot compile any wrappers to handle superclassing the api. As you may know a simple hello world gui will not run on android without a superclass.
It is not my aim to go for full fledged on board development. The overhead is way too high. Ie battery power, syntactical semantics storage space for libraries yada yada yada...
Mozilla has the rhino javascript engine which can execute code within the android virtual machine. However as I said before super classing presents a very serious problem.
I aim to write a bridge in java and javascript. However I have no tools to do the java side work.
I do have access to a shell account with a working j d k, but the j d k is not fully compatible with the android sdk. On top of that I'm faced with the 50 megabytes quota offered with my free shell account. The android sdk is 2.5 gigabytes in size approximately.
To sum it all up there are a few files that I need from the android sdk that will allow me to compile java programs using my free shell, and then convert them for usage on the android virtual machine.
The files in question are as follows:
aapt - weird android packaging mechanism
dx - android virtual machine byte code converter.
From my research I have learned that dx is actually a java program that runs in the standard java implementation.
Well whatever the case is I need these programs running on an Ix86 Unix bsd architecture if anyone out there can supply them pre assembled.
This is not an official request for comments but all comments are appreciated.
Sent from my HTC Magic using Tapatalk

This is how I run my scripts from the shell.
Rhino came to me from sl4a. Sl4a project is unsuccessful @ functional implementation of rhino JavaScript for android at time of this writing.
For whatever purpose sl4a does not execute the dalvik command properly ($BOOTCLASSPATH is being pushed out of context via Rhino or the dalvikvm onLoad) so even though you can install the JavaScript interpreter from sl4a you can't use it without some fancy footwork.
I had to change permissions on my dalvik cache folders as well to get it working on my droid. For some reason the system did not want to accept the rhino library into its dex cache (using cyanogen mod. 6). Just do rwx permissions for everyone on
/data/cache
and
/system/cache
Note that the above file systems are usually mounted read only.
Note also that this is a single line shell command. put it in an sl4a shell script or run it from the terminal.
/system/bin/dalvikvm -Xbootclasspath:/system/framework/core.jar:/system/framework/ext.jar:/system/framework/framework.jar:/system/framework/android.policy.jar:/system/framework/services.jar:/mnt/sdcard/com.googlecode.rhinoforandroid/extras/rhino/rhino1_7R2-dex.jar -Xss128k org.mozilla.javascript.tools.shell.Main -O -1
Running this command in the terminal will activate a javascript interpreter shell that has full access to the android java framework.
If you would like to run a script instead of an interactive shell please append the following to the preceding command
-f /path/to/your/script/yourscriptName.js
That line would make an interesting argument to your new shell script!
For more information about Rhino see my next post for suggestions and resources.
if you are interested in this project now is a very good time to learn java programming! I just started yesterday and I haven't been to sleep yet! lol. it is also considered a requirement to learn the android java api if you plan to capitalize on its functionality.
Aye.. time for more coffee ..
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SL4A - http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/
Android API - http://developer.android.com/reference/packages.html
Rhino API - http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/apidocs/index-all.html
Rhino Documentation - http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/doc.html
Suggested Reading
JavaScript The Definitive Guide: 5th
Edition
some books on Java ... classes,
interfaces, overrides, packages,
sub classing, super classing,
inheritance, extends, import
// its pretty much like jascript without
// all that stuff
some books on Android Programming
- Posted via mobile

Avid Droidery said:
To sum it all up there are a few files that I need from the android sdk that will allow me to compile java programs using my free shell, and then convert them for usage on the android virtual machine.
The files in question are as follows:
aapt - weird android packaging mechanism
dx - android virtual machine byte code converter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So no one out there develops for android under linux?
I downloaded the source tree for the davlik virtual machine but there is no make file to compile the project! Tell me that is not aggravating!
The web quotes a file "envsetup.sh" and a command called "lunch" to be run in a 'build' directory. None of these files were supplied with the download. Practices in idiocy should be banned from the web! Lol.
So let's say I used 'git' to grab the source tree of a single project in the android sdk. How am I supposed to build a project with no make file???
The normal way to do this... is to run the gui setup called 'android.' that does me no good. I only have ssh access to my build server!
Is there no 1 out there who can build these files for linux and supply them to me? From what I understand all you need to do is successfully install and configure the sdk and these files will b available to you in the tools directory.
I would like to file an issue about having no text based setup for the android sdk. In the real world we may not always be able to use a graphical user interface. especially under linux/unix/posix! But what good would that do me? I needed these files 3 days ago
*update issue filed under general build questions google groups (PC WIZ)
So let's recap.. if you are using the android sdk under linux or if you have physical access to a unix machine and some spare time I could really use your help!!!!
I would like to make this topic become a reality soon.
- Posted via mobile (as always)

Ok I got dx up and running.
I found where to get the files prebuilt.
http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=pl...11c17b4f5507f00905ec73f2fb90eaa387f72;hb=HEAD
Yes in platform/prebuilt .. @ the android source code repository.
I also downloaded aapt but the library files are not available on my system for this build. I don't have the rights to upgrade my development server. Stay tuned.
Here is stderr output from './aapt':
./aapt: /usr/lib/libz.so.1: no version information available (required by ./aapt)
./aapt: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required by ./aapt)
If you are thinking of downloading any files from the source code repository using your android device you will be very disappointed! wget fails to download the raw views of the files and reports them as garbage. The built in download manager just keeps tellin me download unsuccessful. In short it took me the better part of 3 hours to get 3 files using 3 different downloaders.
I was unable to download the shell script 'dx' nor was I able to cut copy paste the full source because android would not let me everything it did let me copy had line terminators removed. Somebody needs to fix that clipboard!! Tell me that's not aggravating!
In retrospect the browser should not say 'select text' as a menu option. It should say 'select some of this text, mangle it and then send it to the clipboard' lol.
Anonymous ftp access should be an open source requirement! I blame today's shortcomings on all open source licenses! Lmfao.
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Anyone out there care to donate a 19th/Early 20th century laptop?
I am starting to think like a rhino. I can tell because I'm ready to run my head through the wall! @ aggravating factors.
I am beginning to believe that the android platform is cursed! Lol.
The android devices are awesome! I don't really mean to offend anyone but the software is ****. The source code tree doesn't even resemble a tree.
No offense to Linus Torvalds But you shoulda stuck to hardware programming. I would like to show you a picture of what a git managed project looks like to me.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
I don't know anything technical about it but I think you missed a paper or two on derivative theory. I dont know calculus but everyone knows that a seed from a tree makes a new tree. In retrospect, common sense is pure logic dressed up by the mind as a perception of reality.
My perception of your project and the issue of fault may be wrong but this monstrosity is hosted on your site (android.git.kernel.org)
Please don't get me wrong sir linux is the best damn thing running and everyone involved in its development owes that to you.
I really wish the android platform would have stuck with the tried and true GNU development system. Where source code (seeds) can be downloaded as a seperate package and module dependencies (earth, water, sun, etc..) are easily solved.
I predict this platform will fail within the next 10 years because of this build system. It is quite simply too complicated for new programmers to get on board with fresh ideas. Not to mention the amount of prior knowledge and lofty resources it requires to do so. This is a systemic issue. The flow of integration and information is invaluable to software development. I'm here to tell you the **** doesn't flow.
If anyone dares to challenge these points of authority, might you consider telling me why an open source platform with open source software does not have a bona fide linux distribution like Gentoo, damn small linux, or micro linux? I assure you it is not because no one would use it.
- Posted via mobile

Here is a great program if your'e interested in this script business.
http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/downloads/detail?name=textedit-sl4a.apk&can=2&q=
Let's face it when it comes to the android appearing to multitask things properly it's all about the app! The dialogs are weak but the functionality is perfect. Happy scripting!
- Posted via mobile

Avid Droidery said:
Here is a great program if your'e interested in this script business.
http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/downloads/detail?name=textedit-sl4a.apk&can=2&q=
Let's face it when it comes to the android appearing to multitask things properly it's all about the app! The dialogs are weak but the functionality is perfect. Happy scripting!
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Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thx ill check it out
Sent from my HTC Knight using telepathy

JKILO said:
Sent from my HTC Knight using telepathy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is even funnier than the guy I saw run into a car on his bicycle today! Luckily for everyone involved he wasn't hurt. Not so sure about his phone though.
You are welcome.
- Posted via mobile

Update. This project is on pause until further notice. I have been thwarted at every attempt to succeed in this endeavor therefore is my understanding that I must retool and upgrade my resources before I am able to provide a definite solution.
Feel free to ask any questions regarding my current research.
Standing by ...
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I managed to wrestle my old workstation out of storage.
Some stats
Pentium D 975 Dual Core 3.0 GHz. EM64T
4GB Ram
175 GB HITACHI SATA Gen II HD on Intel RAID Controller
FOXCONN 975X7AB MOBO
I built it back in '07 but she still runs like a champ!
Anyway just wanted to gloat a little... If you were stuck working on an android you might be as happy about your situation! Heck, I'd be happier with a knock off Chinese netbook running Windows CE 5.0. @ 255 MHz.
I predict this platform will fail within the next 10 years because of this build system. It is quite simply too complicated for new programmers to get on board with fresh ideas. Not to mention the amount of prior knowledge and lofty resources it requires to do so. This is a systemic issue. The flow of integration and information is invaluable to software development. I'm here to tell you the **** doesn't flow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what does flow? It isn't the Android API! Let's compare some code on the topic of User Interface Design and Implementation.
An application with a single button the android way:
Code:
public class MyActivity extends Activity {
protected void onCreate(Bundle icicle) {
super.onCreate(icicle);
setContentView(R.layout.content_layout_id);
final Button button = (Button) findViewById(R.id.button_id);
button.setOnClickListener(new View.OnClickListener() {
public void onClick(View v) {
// Perform action on click
}
});
}
}
Oh wait a second were not done yet! The following code belongs in a separate file:
Code:
// .... some of this document was removed to improve clarity.
<Button
android:id="button_id"
android:layout_height="wrap_content"
android:layout_width="wrap_content"
android:text="@string/self_destruct"
android:onClick="selfDestruct" />
Seriously all that for one f*%#&n button? It doesn't even do anything when you push it..
Ok that's uh... hmm interesting to say the least. :barf:
Let's look at the same thing in HTML+JS:
Code:
<FORM>
<INPUT TYPE="button" NAME="button" Value="Push Me" onClick="alert('I am not a killer, but don't push me!');">
</FORM>
Simpleton you say? Try this on for size:
Code:
;---------- [Create the Button Control] ----------
INVOKE CreateWindowEx, 0, addr ButtonClass, addr szButText,\
WS_CHILD or WS_VISIBLE or BS_PUSHBUTTON or BS_ICON or \
BS_LEFT or BS_VCENTER or BS_TEXT,\
100, 50, 100, 40, hWnd, 702, hInstance, 0
mov hButCtrl, eax
;---------- [Load the Image] ----------
invoke LoadIcon, hInstance, 901
mov hImage, eax
invoke SendMessage, hButCtrl, BM_SETIMAGE, IMAGE_ICON, hImage
The code above is actually just a snippet from a source file for a 32-Bit Program for Windows written in assembler. But the concept is the same. There is no code here for a click action. To make the example more interesting, this button has an icon drawn onto it.
Sure, I could provide more examples in different languages, but I believe my point is clear here.
Am I the only person here who realizes somebody screwed up when they thought of the API for this platform? I don't understand the reasoning behind this. The programmer spends more time implementing than creating under this platform. When I look at the more complicated apps that are available in the market I have to say well done! But I also have to say "I am sorry about your losses."
Honestly I don't know what to say other than "I wish I was head of R&D for Google over in Mountain View Ca." These guys obviously have no idea what they are doing.
Point and case made by example.
Who wants to collab. with me on an all HTML based GUI framework for the android? Honestly I would love to. Google says this platform is all about code reuse... Hmm... how come there is no /usr/lib directory? You can use their platform to make libraries! but they are for private use only unless you write a 12 chapter book (in code) explaining to the android what people can do with it. Of course then you have to write a real 12 chapter book for the developers on how to use the API you exposed. :barf: :barf: :barf:
Anyway to make matters worse... It is actually easier to program their platform using javascript, but in my honest opinion... It isn't worth the [bad language] trouble... Here's another code excerpt for android in JavaScript:
Code:
// a plethora of code removed to improve clarity....
var buttonRun = new Button(Activity);
buttonRun.setLayoutParams(new LayoutParams(
LayoutParams.FILL_PARENT, LayoutParams.FILL_PARENT, 1));
buttonRun.setText(Droid.translate("RUN"));
buttonRun.setOnClickListener(function () {
// code to do some stuff here
});
// even more code removed to improve clarity...
If you are used to reading my posts you will have to excuse my malformed paragraphing. I am used to composing all my posts by voice recognition
So what does all this mean? In regard to the thread topic, this means that you have your work cut out for you. Just look at the JavaScript code above and see how ridiculously close it is to writing a program that must be compiled. Mind you that is only the code to create ONE button. Looking back even further, it was easier in ASSEMBLER.
Ok, Android Scripting. Its more than a great Idea... It's the best Idea anyone ever created for this platform. Its too bad that an entire platform API has to be written nearly from scratch before we can take full use of it. Well, I am working on an implementation of rhino. Everything compiles smoothly from eclipse but I can't really test anything or come up with any ideas because I know I'm headed down the wrong path.
Well I brought you here for your interest so let me boost your interest.
You want GUI programming in script? Visit the following link and click on:
http://droidscript.blogspot.com/2010/03/droidscript-getting-started.html
I wonder why that project 'died' in its infancy He certainly accomplished quite a bit!
LOL I was right about this platform before I ever opened the IDE! LOL

One more point of interest...
Assembler is the fastest (and most powerful) programming language on the planet. I never thought I would live to see the day that I would find another language (other than C++) that was harder to program with. I was wrong. And I will be wrong about this platform coming to a failure if google pulls its head out of its ass (and gives me or my ideas a job.) LOL.
Note to google devs: Keep It Simple Stupid. HTML5 Based Interface is the only way to go. Especially for a device with limited capabilities. The code is already out there and implemented. It only needs to be adapted. Seriously, throw backwards compatibility out the window and work with something that has the roots, credibility, and global support to be worthy of said term.
Anybody who wants to run that bull**** will have to settle for an 'OnBoard Legacy Code Emulator.' Personally I don't have the time to be bothered with your crypto-pseudo-bloatware and neither does my microprocessor. And just in case you are wondering, I am usually the person who has to say: "I told you so."

I have always thought of it to be like you have revealed it to us... Snap, this just means the end of my Android programmer life... so long Androooiid, so long Google !

Re: onboard android programming
I use JavaIDEdroid program with DroidDevelop for compile my android programs on my android device.
I can't paste links here, but you can find its on the market.
They use eclipse Java compiler and some another utilities to provide ability to create correctly working apk files at output.

wow. this is the only posting mentioning DroidDevelop.

[GUIDE]Definitive guide to Windows 8 on ARM

Collating known facts and informed opinion
There is no public pre-release of Win8 on ARM yet (and it might only ever be OEM only)
Should be a Windows 8 beta in February 2012? , but still might not be a public ARM beta
Win8 on ARM will need to be customised extensively by the OEM for their particular hardware
as it is NOT a general purpose system covering all standard components like Windows or Linux on x86 PC’s is
Needs ARM v7 cpu (but all modern tablets have a their cpu / SOC based on ARM v7)
Needs a UEFI firmware/‘bios’
and no existing Android/Thinkpad systems out there have this
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Wind...m-the-Maker-of-Instant-Boot-BIOS-205487.shtml
Will have a secure bootloader on ARM (but not on x86/x64)
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/ne...ing-or-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it.ars
Win8 tablet spec
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Windows-8-Microsoft-Tablet-x86-ARM,14504.html
?MB RAM, 10GB storage, 1366x768 screen
Some ARM related information mentioned on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8
There will be an Embedded Windows version of Win8 on ARM
http://www.windowsfordevices.com/c/a/News/Microsoft-promises-embedded-versions-of-Windows-8/
Running x86 apps on Windows ARM – not possible or v unlikely. Microsoft have not definitely confirmed that there wont be any x86 emulator, but unlikely in the limited space available
Maybe we will see a 3rd party Virtual Box or Boschs or similar to emulate x86 and some intercept dll’s to thunk the api calls to the relevant native ARM windows dll’s))
Will it run WP7 apps ? (Silverlight / processor neutral apps) – unknown, but should be easy to port
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Port-Windows-Phone-Apps-to-Windows-8-232615.shtml
There is a rumour of some internal HP testing of Win8 on Thinkpad
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/10/24/hp-testing-windows-8-on-touchpads/

The only (prototype) Windows 8 ARM tablet device seen to date, is the Qualcom one
http://www.qualcomm.com/media/relea...on-windows-8-based-prototype-pcs-previewed-mi
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2392930,00.asp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BblNpUEp6N8
[This info copied from tbaker077's post in the HP Touchpad section, as it saved me having to look it up]
And Nvidia Tegra 3, TI OMAP4430 one
http://www.netbooknews.com/27326/nv...gon-powered-tablets-laptop-running-windows-8/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kElw2byX9EE&feature=relmfu
Both video clips from the recent Microsoft Windows 8 Build conference

Next version of Windows Phone (WP8) to be based on Windows 8
(presumably Windows8 onARM)
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/ne...s-8-kernel-and-integration-multiple-cores.ars

Windows 8 on ARM should go to [OEM] developers in February
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-5...to-developers-soon-say-sources/?tag=txt;title

Here's the latest definitive info from Microsoft
Its a very long and detailed Building Windows 8 blog posting
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx

A good write up of the latest news
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/...-on-arm-and-why-apple-should-be-worried/18071

Widows 8 Consumer Preview available today (Client and Server versions)
But Intel only
No ARM version other than via OEM's / 'testers'
Latest news on http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/its-windows-8-download-day-heres-what-we-know/12058
And no Domain or Enterprise management features on Windows on ARM !
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/ne...-will-lack-enterprise-management-features.ars

xsoliman3 said:
And no Domain or Enterprise management features on Windows on ARM !
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/ne...-will-lack-enterprise-management-features.ars
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see why MS would have decided to do this, ie split home and business tablets in to ARM and x86, and to be honest i think for the most part it would go that way anyway, but actively NOT putting one of the best features in windows on to a device is only going to reduce your customer base an i gt the feeling they are going to need all the support they can get on this one
The concept of what they are doing here is great but the implementation of it is quite frankly, terrible! but we shall just have to wait and see, nothing is set in stone yet

Microsoft Confirms Lockdown of ARM Devices Running Windows 8
http://www.xda-developers.com/feature/microsoft-confirms-lockdown-of-arm-devices-running-windows-8/

Windows RT
The official name of Windows on ARM is now announced as Windows RT
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/.../04/16/announcing-the-windows-8-editions.aspx
Lots of disussion there about the naming

RT is OEM only, confirmed

More on managing WOA (Windows RT) in a corporate environment, even though it can't be domain joined
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...quot-pcs-in-the-enterprise-including-woa.aspx

xsoliman3 said:
More on managing WOA (Windows RT) in a corporate environment, even though it can't be domain joined
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...quot-pcs-in-the-enterprise-including-woa.aspx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to say im starting to understand the ARM development a bit more after reading that.
I still think x86 is the way to go for a fully functional tablet (at least for me) but if the price is right on these arm units then I think there will be some serious thought going in to buying them

dazza9075 said:
I have to say im starting to understand the ARM development a bit more after reading that.
I still think x86 is the way to go for a fully functional tablet (at least for me) but if the price is right on these arm units then I think there will be some serious thought going in to buying them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 models would def go for a higher price because you would be able to run all Windows 8 Desktop software unlike on WinRT.
The main difference will be battery life and processing juice.
Anyways, I think Microsoft should give less options for the Windows 8 tablets and provide more support for the hardware.

xsoliman3 said:
Running x86 apps on Windows ARM – not possible or v unlikely. Microsoft have not definitely confirmed that there wont be any x86 emulator, but unlikely in the limited space available
Maybe we will see a 3rd party Virtual Box or Boschs or similar to emulate x86 and some intercept dll’s to thunk the api calls to the relevant native ARM windows dll’s))
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not gonna happen. x86 is complex instruction set, ARM is reduced instruction set. Emulating ARM on x86 can be done with somewhat reasonable speed if you have a fast processor, but x86 on ARM is probably going to be ridiculously slow. ARM is more efficient, so clock for clock you get better speed with lower power requirements, but emulating CISC from RISC is ****ty.
As far as WINE style API hook intercepting, that is a real crapshoot because many apps do have some bits of assembly in there.
xsoliman3 said:
Will it run WP7 apps ? (Silverlight / processor neutral apps) – unknown, but should be easy to port
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Port-Windows-Phone-Apps-to-Windows-8-232615.shtml
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anything that runs on the .Net platform should work in win8 ARM assuming that windows 8 includes the .net framework.
dazza9075 said:
I have to say im starting to understand the ARM development a bit more after reading that.
I still think x86 is the way to go for a fully functional tablet (at least for me) but if the price is right on these arm units then I think there will be some serious thought going in to buying them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I disagree, ARM is far more practical for mobile applications due to it's massive energy efficiency advantage over x86.
Besides, as of yet there are no x86 based SoC's, it's all separate IC's, which reduces the energy efficiency even further. Intel has Medfield coming up, but I wouldn't count on that including a decent GPU.

Rakeesh_j said:
Anything that runs on the .Net platform should work in win8 ARM assuming that windows 8 includes the .net framework.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows Phone uses the .Net Compact Framework, special version of the Silverlight, XNA and some phone-specific assemblies. It won't start on the desktop .Net, because it uses a different set of the assemblies, not saying that it uses a different CLR (especially the garbage collector).
But microsoft can write a special "layer" which will allow to run WP7 apps, but why is it needed? There is lots of crap in the marketplace.

Rakeesh_j said:
Anything that runs on the .Net platform should work in win8 ARM assuming that windows 8 includes the .net framework.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can write applications in .NET for WinRT, but they don't actually run in the CLR as we think of it today.
Best way to explain is to look at the linked image.
http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/davidburela.png
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Think of the Green as what works on WinRT that you can purchase and install. (Things in blue on WinRT, cannot be sideloaded since you can only install from the store which sells Metro apps).
What is happening is the application you write in .NET, instead of going to IL to be run in a .NET CLR, is being sent to WinRT for execution.
Better explanation here:
http://csharperimage.jeremylikness.com/2012/03/net-and-metro-windows-runtime-and-clr.html
Would it be possible for a light CLR to be written in ARM for .NET apps to execute against, probably. But at this time, your .NET appears to be executed by WinRT. This means you get a subset of .NET that can execute on Windows 8 ARM as a METRO app being interpreted by WINRT.

No sideloading of arm desktop apps
Just to re-iterate a point from the above post
As per the recent complaints by firefox etc, even if you build a standard aka desktop app and compile for ARM, you will not be able to deploy it as not signed
(and no side loading of desktop apps)
Might? be able to pursuade the Microsoft store to host it, as they will host deskop apps for Windows8, but not sure if they will allow desktop apps for WIndows 8 on ARM (Windows RT)
ALso unclear if ENterprise customers can have their own private app store for their corporate apps
Side loading of Metro apps on Windows RT is also unclear
Can get them from the store (signed) but again doesnt seem to be able to side load them ?
to be confirmed

Windows 8 diet exposes Microsoft's weak ARM
Windows 8 diet exposes Microsoft's weak ARM
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/17/windows_8_package_confusion/
Good article comparing WIndows8 on x86/x64 to Windows RT on ARM
and the enevitable confusion

xsoliman3 said:
Just to re-iterate a point from the above post
Also unclear if ENterprise customers can have their own private app store for their corporate apps
Side loading of Metro apps on Windows RT is also unclear
Can get them from the store (signed) but again doesnt seem to be able to side load them ?
to be confirmed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These questions are answered here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstor...deploying-metro-style-apps-to-businesses.aspx
To Sideload:
You need to sign an application with a cert the machine trusts. (Can be your own cert, if you add it to cert store.)
Set 'Allow all trusted apps to install' in group policy or registry
Then either use a machine that is domain joined, or activate a special product key by using a script on the target machine to enable sideloading.
This will allow you to install via a variety of methods listed in the article.
While no 'private app store' has been listed, creating your own, would just be a quick website, that drops install requests in a queue, that are then executed by sccm or another deployment agent. On x86, you could create a background process to do it if you don't have a domain and a deployment agent.

Ubuntu, Fedora 12, Mint 8, Mandriva Linux 2010, OpenSUSE, and others! (?)

Okay gang,
Getting my feet wet with Linux -or soon will be, but just not sure where to start. I can obviously get the versions listed in the thread title without any issues, just not sure which one to begin with. For obvious reasons, I'm looking to learn Linux for use on Android development, and potentially beyond that scope. But, I'm asking for input and/or direction as to where to begin. Albeit, I'm slightly overwhelmed by the variations surrounding Linux as an OS, I just want to be certain that I'm choosing an appropriate starting point with my self-taught approach.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Sent from my MB865 using xda's premium carrier pigeon service

Apex_Strider said:
Okay gang,
Getting my feet wet with Linux -or soon will be, but just not sure where to start. I can obviously get the versions listed in the thread title without any issues, just not sure which one to begin with. For obvious reasons, I'm looking to learn Linux for use on Android development, and potentially beyond that scope. But, I'm asking for input and/or direction as to where to begin. Albeit, I'm slightly overwhelmed by the variations surrounding Linux as an OS, I just want to be certain that I'm choosing an appropriate starting point with my self-taught approach.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Sent from my MB865 using xda's premium carrier pigeon service
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go grab unbuntu, it is by far the best desktop experience and has the most support for android development, plus it is debian under the covers (in other words very stable).
http://www.ubuntu.com/download

jimbridgman said:
Go grab unbuntu, it is by far the best desktop experience and has the most support for android development, plus it is debian under the covers (in other words very stable).
http://www.ubuntu.com/download
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Will second that .....
Also recommend to do this will make it closer to a windows (new ubuntu panel is crap)..... If you like mac I can give you code to make it close to that os.....
After you install run this command from terminal sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback log out then click
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
then pick

hankbizzo5 said:
Will second that .....
Also recomend to do this to get menu more like windows.....
After you install run this command from terminal --- sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback ---- ..... log out then click
then pick
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Heck just run Gnome 3... it is much better than unity and it is now part of the standard ubuntu install, just select it from the login screen the very first login, or log out and then select it from the login screen.
I personally use Gnome 3 and I love it.

jimbridgman said:
Go grab unbuntu, it is by far the best desktop experience and has the most support for android development, plus it is debian under the covers (in other words very stable).
http://www.ubuntu.com/download
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks Jim,
I was just at B&N picking around through the Computer/Software Dev section and thought, "If I'm ever going to do this, I need to DO this!" I noticed several Ubuntu reference and starter books, as well as a slew of others relating to the many Linux versions. Headed to another book store now to see what I can find. May need to just come to terms with coughing up the $50 bucks for the more in-depth read on Ubuntu... thanks for the input!
Sent from my MB865 using xda's premium carrier pigeon service

jimbridgman said:
Heck just run Gnome 3... it is much better than unity and it is now part of the standard ubuntu install, just select it from the login screen the very first login, or log out and then select it from the login screen.
I personally use Gnome 3 and I love it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea gnome is by far the best imho..... Did not realize gnome was on install just did one yesterday and had to add gnome shell????? better update my live cd.....:good:

Apex_Strider said:
Thanks Jim,
I was just at B&N picking around through the Computer/Software Dev section and thought, "If I'm ever going to do this, I need to DO this!" I noticed several Ubuntu reference and starter books, as well as a slew of others relating to the many Linux versions. Headed to another book store now to see what I can find. May need to just come to terms with coughing up the $50 bucks for the more in-depth read on Ubuntu... thanks for the input!
Sent from my MB865 using xda's premium carrier pigeon service
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go to half price books... just find a basic linux book.. no need for one specifically on ubuntu. All the commands and stuff are the same, it does not matter the version or distro.

Here is a good free start commands..... I got tons in bookmarks Will post more if you need..... This is also useful wiki Ubuntu_Precise

jimbridgman said:
Go to half price books... just find a basic linux book.. no need for one specifically on ubuntu. All the commands and stuff are the same, it does not matter the version or distro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I found nothing for Ubuntu at Half Price Books, only Linux and Win-d'ohs ones. There was a pretty thick book for Ubuntu at B&N that came with the install disk. Looked pretty comprehensive in content, so maybe I'll scoop that one up as well as a "Linux for Dummies"-type reference, since clearly that last part would be applicable to me!
Sent from my MB865 using xda's premium carrier pigeon service

I'm right there with you I need to start learning Linux/Ubuntu and android as well maybe then I can contribute something useful
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app

Apex_Strider said:
I found nothing for Ubuntu at Half Price Books, only Linux and Win-d'ohs ones. There was a pretty thick book for Ubuntu at B&N that came with the install disk. Looked pretty comprehensive in content, so maybe I'll scoop that one up as well as a "Linux for Dummies"-type reference, since clearly that last part would be applicable to me!
Sent from my MB865 using xda's premium carrier pigeon service
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is all you need is a linux book... forget about ubuntu or mandrivia or whichever distro it is... just think about all the distros like a stock rom built by someone different.... they are all the same underneath just packaged up and looks a little different, but still android underneath it all.
No need to a get dummies book... those are the worst they are really like crash notes from when you were in school, they give you enough to pass a test, but you really don't learn anything.
Get a book similar to this:
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Com...?ie=UTF8&qid=1341699303&sr=8-1&keywords=Linux
And this:
http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-...?ie=UTF8&qid=1341699303&sr=8-8&keywords=Linux
Same book And in kindle form:
http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-...ie=UTF8&qid=1341699303&sr=8-10&keywords=Linux
This one too:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Linux-Com...ie=UTF8&qid=1341699303&sr=8-16&keywords=Linux
Those are couple of decent ones.

Big thing about the guide books for a lot of people they are in greek hard to understand..... First you should get some basic terminology down..... not many people just jump into Qt4 python whatever..... This might help to translate some of those terms you will come upon Basic_Terminology
And there is the ubuntu community forums that are a god send.....

hankbizzo5 said:
Big thing about the guide books for a lot of people they are in greek hard to understand..... First you should get some basic terminology down..... not many people just jump into Qt4 python whatever..... This might help to translate some of those terms you will come upon Basic_Terminology
And there is the ubuntu community forums that are a god send.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you suggest some good forums I can join to get so "non-n00by" about the basics, and eventually get some good info/direction when I get a bit more familiar?
Jim, hankbizzo5, I appreciate all of your insights with this quandary.

Here you go almost anything you could ever need to know Ubuntu is here..... start here

hankbizzo5 said:
Here you go almost anything you could ever need to know Ubuntu is here..... start here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you, hankbizzo5! (Limited to 8 'thanks' per day? What is that?) lol I appreciate your help...

hankbizzo5 said:
Here you go almost anything you could ever need to know Ubuntu is here..... start here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree ubuntuforums is a great place to check out.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using xda premium

Apex_Strider said:
Thank you, hankbizzo5! (Limited to 8 'thanks' per day? What is that?) lol I appreciate your help...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No prob..... did you download the live cd yet?????get it here :highfive:

hankbizzo5 said:
No prob..... did you download the live cd yet?????get it here :highfive:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, I haven't downloaded yet. I need to take a look at my laptop, and see how much free space I have, and how much I need for Ubuntu. I may have to clean up my hard disk first. But, that it on my agenda for today! I will be traveling this week for work, so I should have plenty of time to dig into this and get myself somewhat familiar with it!

Best solution:
1) Get Ubuntu ISO (desktop i386 is fine, there's no requirement to get the AMD64/x64 version, none whatsoever, and there are always some issues with x64 versions - people will say there aren't but, after dealing with Linux since it first came out and Slackware 1.0 nearly 20+ years ago, I'm not kidding). Best source for the torrent (and fast to download) is here:
http://mirror.anl.gov/pub/ubuntu-iso/CDs-Ubuntu/precise/ubuntu-12.04-desktop-i386.iso
2) Get Wubi from here:
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/windows-installer
Wubi is a tiny Windows executable that allows you to "install" Ubuntu into a folder - literally the full entire OS is installed inside a folder (it'll be \Ubuntu in the root directory unless you choose a different location with the installer). The purpose of Wubi is to allow you to "install" Ubuntu without mucking up your system:
Note: the Wubi.exe file is also included inside the Ubuntu 12.04 ISO but some people either aren't aware of it or don't know how to extract a file from an ISO (WinRAR can "read" ISO files just fine if you use it). I gave the direct link to Wubi for download because on occasion it is updated and could fix a bug or whatever that was in the original version included on the distribution media, aka the ISO. Ubuntu 12.04 came out in April so it's been out awhile now, best course of action is get the direct download version of Wubi from the link I provided.
What it does by installing into a single folder is allowing you to continue using Windows as you want, and if you get the urge to do some Ubuntu work, you reboot the PC, choose Ubuntu in the boot menu (it does not install GRUB into the Windows bootloader, it just adds an entry to point to the folder where Ubuntu is which has a chainloader GRUB bootloader which THEN kicks in - your Windows bootloader is never altered or changed in any way).
You then "boot" into Ubuntu, do all the necessary setup since it's the first boot, set up the user account/password, etc, and it'll reboot of course when the updates are installed and you choose Ubuntu again, etc. Or back in to Windows, it's your choice.
Now, the beauty of all this is simple: it doesn't require partitioning the hard drive since you're installing into a single folder. Wubi does ask you for the size of the installation, and depending on the free space you have it'll make a suggestion, but a full complete installation of Ubuntu 12.04 will be about 4.8GB after all the updates and patches are installed, so if you choose something like 12GB for the installation size, you'll be fine for a very long time to come. You could install every Linux dev tool there is, every compiler, IDE, etc, and you'd still have gigs to spare.
Anywho, the final grand aspect of this is that if you get sick of Ubuntu, decide it's not for you, or you just flat out give up on it (you probably won't given your posts so far), you can run the Wubi installer once more from inside Windows (obviously), and click Uninstall and wham, in about 3 seconds, Ubuntu is gone, completely, with no trace of it aside from the Wubi installer and the Ubuntu ISO if you keep it around.
That's it. That's the simplest way to use Ubuntu on a PC - this is a better method in the long run that using a VM because you're not dealing with a HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) and you get direct "bare bones bare metal" work on Linux/Ubuntu.
If you choose to take the Virtual Machine route, VirtualBox is the recommended VM app. VMWare Workstation or Player is nice also but hugely bloated stuff, and they both leave 5 services running in the background even when the main application isn't running - VirtualBox is clean, has nothing running when it's not, and is very lean and mean on resources. Takes longer to get set up than using Wubi but, the primary benefit with using a virtual machine is you run both OSes at the same time, no rebooting to one or the other is necessary.
And VirtualBox has excellent USB support nowadays (USB 2.0 also) so it's entirely possible to do all your learning and experimentation with Ubuntu in VirtualBox and get things done just as easily without having to dual boot.
Hope this helps, but if you need more info just ask, someone will cough up the info.

Thank you for the info, br0adband!
This sounds like what I was thinking of doing, since I do have a Win-d'ohs OS PC laptop and don't really want to go full Linux on the thing. I was also concerned with the whole "dual boot" thing. I'd like to be able to have both OS's running at the same time -eventually. However, I don't really mind having to reboot from Ubuntu to get back to Win-d'ohs, or at least that's my thinking at this stage in the game. That may change, however.
Once I get up and get myself a bucket of cowboy coffee, I will start messing around with my PC laptop, and see what measures I need to have in place to get Ubuntu up and running before I leave town for work this coming week. I'd like to have everything I need (as far as setup) completed by this afternoon, so I can start familiarizing myself with Ubuntu over the next several days.
I appreciate the help, and I hope you, Jim, and hankbizzo5 won't mind if I pester you all occasionally with some "nooby" questions about all of this!

Windows RT 8.1 anti-jailbreak differences

It looks like they locked out the jailbreak from 8.1 by invalidating all old signatures. Windows RT 8.1's ci.dll does not trust the "1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.6" OID in certificates anymore, only a new "1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.21" OID. Both are required now. How it works is, if a certain configuration bit is not set in the call to CipMinCryptToSigningLevel, attempting to load an executable with a *10.3.6 OID on the certificate but not a *10.3.21, CipMinCryptToSigningLevel will explicitly fail with STATUS_INVALID_IMAGE_HASH--it won't even bother to consider it a 0 signing level.
I bet that this time, they will not give device manufacturers anything but executables that require booting Windows in test mode, something only Microsoft and device manufacturers can accomplish due to Secure Boot.
Microsoft Office's executables are signed with both the 2010 and 2011 keys, presumably so that it can run on both 8.0 and 8.1.
Visual Studio 2012's remote debugger doesn't work anymore, either. I bet that they're working on further locking down the remote debugger to avoid letting us use it to jailbreak.
The only good news I see is that NtUserSetInformationThread sub 7--the kernel exploit--has not been fixed.

Myriachan said:
It looks like they locked out the jailbreak from 8.1 by invalidating all old signatures. Windows RT 8.1's ci.dll does not trust the "1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.6" OID in certificates anymore, only a new "1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.21" OID. Both are required now. How it works is, if a certain configuration bit is not set in the call to CipMinCryptToSigningLevel, attempting to load an executable with a *10.3.6 OID on the certificate but not a *10.3.21, CipMinCryptToSigningLevel will explicitly fail with STATUS_INVALID_IMAGE_HASH--it won't even bother to consider it a 0 signing level.
I bet that this time, they will not give device manufacturers anything but executables that require booting Windows in test mode, something only Microsoft and device manufacturers can accomplish due to Secure Boot.
Microsoft Office's executables are signed with both the 2010 and 2011 keys, presumably so that it can run on both 8.0 and 8.1.
Visual Studio 2012's remote debugger doesn't work anymore, either. I bet that they're working on further locking down the remote debugger to avoid letting us use it to jailbreak.
The only good news I see is that NtUserSetInformationThread sub 7--the kernel exploit--has not been fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you know if they blocked downgrading (through updating the EFI certs), or if we can just throw the old CI.dll in there or not?
Edit: Nevermind, they state that a recovery drive can return to RT.

netham45 said:
Do you know if they blocked downgrading (through updating the EFI certs), or if we can just throw the old CI.dll in there or not?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can boot the 8.0 recovery image from USB just fine. In fact, if I choose Command Prompt, I can then go run WinDbg if it's on the hard drive. =)
Windows 8.1 knows the name of the new OIDs. The previous OID 1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.6 is "Windows System Component Verification"; the new OID 1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.21 is specifically named "Windows RT Verification".
Replacing ci.dll with the old version causes it to fail to boot. Looking into this more.

Myriachan said:
It looks like they locked out the jailbreak from 8.1 by invalidating all old signatures. Windows RT 8.1's ci.dll does not trust the "1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.6" OID in certificates anymore, only a new "1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.21" OID. Both are required now. How it works is, if a certain configuration bit is not set in the call to CipMinCryptToSigningLevel, attempting to load an executable with a *10.3.6 OID on the certificate but not a *10.3.21, CipMinCryptToSigningLevel will explicitly fail with STATUS_INVALID_IMAGE_HASH--it won't even bother to consider it a 0 signing level.
I bet that this time, they will not give device manufacturers anything but executables that require booting Windows in test mode, something only Microsoft and device manufacturers can accomplish due to Secure Boot.
Microsoft Office's executables are signed with both the 2010 and 2011 keys, presumably so that it can run on both 8.0 and 8.1.
Visual Studio 2012's remote debugger doesn't work anymore, either. I bet that they're working on further locking down the remote debugger to avoid letting us use it to jailbreak.
The only good news I see is that NtUserSetInformationThread sub 7--the kernel exploit--has not been fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I run office from windows.old but it doesnt work at all.

windowsrtc said:
I run office from windows.old but it doesnt work at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows RT 8.1 installs a new set of Office executables that are signed with the new signature. The old Office executables won't work, just like everything else won't work.

Trying to use the old ci.dll fails, but using the old boot loader does not. In fact, the old 8.0 boot loader can actually boot the 8.1 kernel just fine, not even noticing a difference.
The 8.1 bootmgr.efi is signed with the *10.3.21 OID. This means that they could reflash the firmware to only accept *10.3.21 signatures during the final build 8.1 upgrade process if they wanted to be mean to people in the way that Apple is. In other words, I fully expect that Microsoft will do this. Even worse, they could force the 8.1 install on most people via Windows Update if it's free to RT users.
We need another way in. >.<

I dunno, I think this should reinvigorate those with the know-how to figure out how to get Linux on the thing so we could keep control of our own devices. It's come up a couple times in a couple threads, and I'm sure a kernel driver is the easiest way to go about it for now.

The Linux boot ideas have all been about cross-booting from RT into Linux. If 8.1 locks out our ability to run unsigned code (including kernel drivers), then it would no longer be possible to load Linux either. New devices, or older ones that got the upgrade, would be stranded.
Don't get me wrong, I thing that getting Linux working is an admirable goal. Just don't expect it will fix the 8.1 "now with moar lockdown!" problem.

Myriachan said:
Visual Studio 2012's remote debugger doesn't work anymore, either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What about VS2013 - the preview version has just been released... ?

GoodDayToDie said:
The Linux boot ideas have all been about cross-booting from RT into Linux. If 8.1 locks out our ability to run unsigned code (including kernel drivers), then it would no longer be possible to load Linux either. New devices, or older ones that got the upgrade, would be stranded.
Don't get me wrong, I thing that getting Linux working is an admirable goal. Just don't expect it will fix the 8.1 "now with moar lockdown!" problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I meant, get out ahead of it and don't ever bother upgrading to 8.1. Leave it jailbroken at 8.0 and give up on Microsoft thereafter.

GoodDayToDie said:
The Linux boot ideas have all been about cross-booting from RT into Linux. If 8.1 locks out our ability to run unsigned code (including kernel drivers), then it would no longer be possible to load Linux either. New devices, or older ones that got the upgrade, would be stranded.
Don't get me wrong, I thing that getting Linux working is an admirable goal. Just don't expect it will fix the 8.1 "now with moar lockdown!" problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It all depends on whether upon 8.1's final release Microsoft will do a firmware update that disallows bootarm.efi files that were signed with the original keys.

"The following error occurred: The Remote Debugger cannot be started as an Administrator on Microsoft Windows RT. Restart the remote debugger with normal user permissions."
I'm rather disappointed in MS for /still/ not unlocking RT.
Edit:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Looks like they locked down the debugger decently.

I think the best way is to find a way to flash uefi by uart.so we can hack uefi directly.
BTW,windows 8.1 WDK contains arm files and may be they can be used on vs2012.

I came up with a copy of windbg/cdb that works, but it looks like they blocked attaching to csrss by marking it as a protected image.

netham45 said:
I came up with a copy of windbg/cdb that works, but it looks like they blocked attaching to csrss by marking it as a protected image.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This may make things harder, but you can try to run WinDBG as a service and run your script. Start from here: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/824344

netham45 said:
I came up with a copy of windbg/cdb that works, but it looks like they blocked attaching to csrss by marking it as a protected image.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I PM'd you about discussing ways into 8.1. I sent a PM because I would rather not discuss certain things visibly prior to 8.1 release when Microsoft still has an easy chance to defeat what we come up with before launch.

Myriachan said:
... Windows 8.1 knows the name of the new OIDs. The previous OID 1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.6 is "Windows System Component Verification"; the new OID 1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.21 is specifically named "Windows RT Verification".
Replacing ci.dll with the old version causes it to fail to boot. Looking into this more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since your exploit still works, can you locate ci.dll and patch it in-memory? Or is Microsoft performing runtime integrity checks?
As far as I {knew|know}, Microsoft was only doing on-disk checks before mapping the image into memory. See Alan Meese's Windows Phone: Security Deep Dive, http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechEd/Europe/2012/WPH304. (I know its a different platform, but I would expect it to be very similar).
Jeff

noloader said:
Since your exploit still works, can you locate ci.dll and patch it in-memory? Or is Microsoft performing runtime integrity checks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, which is what the 8.0 exploit does. Finding ci.dll is simple: EnumDeviceDrivers or whatever the NT API equivalent is. The hard part is writing to kernel memory.
Two exploits are required in order to jailbreak. The first is to execute arbitrary assembly code at user level. The second is to attack kernel mode with an exploit. Both of these are difficult problems to solve. In 8.0, the code execution exploit was to use a Microsoft-signed debugger executable to modify an existing program's code. The kernel exploit was the kernel not properly validating parameters from csrss.exe, a trusted process.
Microsoft didn't release a security fix for the csrss.exe exploit probably under the idea of being on the other side of the airtight hatchway, using Raymond Chen terminology: attacking csrss.exe requires Administrator access, so from a security perspective, an attacker would already have won. The only time that that philosophy doesn't apply is with DRM protections--and guess what, the 8.1 fix is to mark csrss.exe as a DRM process, which it clearly is not.
The other big thing Microsoft did in 8.1 was to invalidate all the signed debugger executables from 8.0, and make the new 8.1 debuggers require a special secure boot mode that only device manufacturers and Microsoft can enable.

Myriachan said:
It looks like they locked out the jailbreak from 8.1 by invalidating all old signatures. Windows RT 8.1's ci.dll does not trust the "1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.6" OID in certificates anymore, only a new "1.3.6.1.4.1.311.10.3.21" OID. Both are required now. How it works is, if a certain configuration bit is not set in the call to CipMinCryptToSigningLevel, attempting to load an executable with a *10.3.6 OID on the certificate but not a *10.3.21, CipMinCryptToSigningLevel will explicitly fail with STATUS_INVALID_IMAGE_HASH--it won't even bother to consider it a 0 signing level.
I bet that this time, they will not give device manufacturers anything but executables that require booting Windows in test mode, something only Microsoft and device manufacturers can accomplish due to Secure Boot.
Microsoft Office's executables are signed with both the 2010 and 2011 keys, presumably so that it can run on both 8.0 and 8.1.
Visual Studio 2012's remote debugger doesn't work anymore, either. I bet that they're working on further locking down the remote debugger to avoid letting us use it to jailbreak.
The only good news I see is that NtUserSetInformationThread sub 7--the kernel exploit--has not been fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Myriachan - do you have a reference for those changes? A friend is writing a paper and would like to verify the source and cite you. Google is turning up lots of spurious noise.

noloader said:
Myriachan - do you have a reference for those changes? A friend is writing a paper and would like to verify the source and cite you. Google is turning up lots of spurious noise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe everything in this thread is our own research.

Virtual Machines on Android

One of the best features of Intel based MacBooks is the support for Bootcamp: Apple's own software that allows users to install Windows on MacBooks and use it as Dual Boot machines.
Unfortunately, this is no longer supported on the non-Intel Macs that run on Apple Silicon. Even more unfortunate is that Microsoft doesn't have any plans currently to support Windows on ARM.
The solution to this problem is to use Virtual Machines (VM)! Given the increased capabilities of hardware today, virtualization is handled well without lags or other problems. Virtual Machines allow running different operating systems on top of the currently booted system.
Android devices too have very capable hardware today. Can we not have a similar solution for Android?
This would be great for the following:
1. Users can run an older Android version if they like it more.
2. Users can install and use custom ROMs without unlocking their bootloader.
3. Users can install and run original ROMs of other brands and smartphone models.
4. Users can even install iOS and use it on an Android device.
5. Users can root their virtual machines and enjoy root without unlocking their bootloader.
6. No waiting time or hassles to get bootloader unlock codes as they would no longer be needed.
7. Users can continue using banking apps and other apps/ games that won't work in bootloader unlocked phones.
8. There is no risk of losing warranty or causing any damage to their phones.
9. The Virtual Machines (VMs) can be easily copied to other Android devices and run from there without losing data or setting everything up again.
I don't see discussions on this topic. Is this not possible?

Found this article:
Can You Run a Virtual Machine on a Smartphone? How Does It Work?
With smartphones increasingly becoming capable devices, did it ever cross your mind to run a virtual machine on them? Is it even possible? How?
www.makeuseof.com
Has anyone tried this?

TheMystic said:
Is this not possible?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Possible but theysimply dont care
TheMystic said:
2. Users can install and use custom ROMs without unlocking their bootloader.
3. Users can install and run original ROMs of other brands and smartphone models.
4. Users can root their virtual machines and enjoy root without unlocking their bootloader.
5. No waiting time or hassles to get bootloader unlock codes as they would no longer be needed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Non-sense and impractical
TheMystic said:
One of the best features of Intel based MacBooks is the support for Bootcamp: Apple's own software that allows users to install Windows on MacBooks and use it as Dual Boot machines.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
More like one of the best features of any x86 pc , you can boot window , linux , android , chrome os or whatever . Thats why x86 is miles ahead compared to arm

Guan Yu said:
Non-sense and impractical
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why so?
While this sort of use is pretty niche, but so is the entire segment of rooting and custom ROMs.
If smartphone hardware is capable, there are definitely plenty of advantages and zero risk. It will totally eliminate hardware issues for users and there won't be any boot-looping issues or bricking problems.
I have edited OP to include iOS too as a potential possibility.

GSIs & treble are the closest we can get for running custom ROMs on modern Android hardware.
You can always run ARM Linux on Android with Termux,
I believe there used to be a niche project which ran Android Lollipop on Android. However, it was very slow so it was not very popular.
Even if the Android Hardware is capable the base Android running the said hardware limits the execution.
That's why a BL unlock is required to access any specific Hardware feature which is blocked by software,

Obviously you aim too high, but basic virtual machines are always possible.
A starting point: https://github.com/limboemu/limbo

karandpr said:
GSIs & treble are the closest we can get for running custom ROMs on modern Android hardware.
You can always run ARM Linux on Android with Termux,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These are not VMs.
karandpr said:
I believe there used to be a niche project which ran Android Lollipop on Android. However, it was very slow so it was not very popular.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When was this?
I don't know the technical details of how VMs work on PCs. But I have tried all sorts of operating systems like Windows 7, Windows XP, macOS, several Linux distros on my 10 year old HP laptop that runs on Windows 11. They all run surprisingly well and smooth. Only macOS is a bit laggy on the machine, but is still quite usable.
karandpr said:
Even if the Android Hardware is capable the base Android running the said hardware limits the execution.
That's why a BL unlock is required to access any specific Hardware feature which is blocked by software,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does Android block VMs from using the hardware directly?
It's been a while since I played around with these things, so not quite sure if I had to make any changes in the laptop recovery to make VMs work. Is this similar to unlocking bootloader on an Android phone?
SoundDrill said:
A starting point: https://github.com/limboemu/limbo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It appears this project currently doesn't support Android OS.

TheMystic said:
These are not VMs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In the end, the "emulator" will have to run a GSI on top of the device.
TheMystic said:
When was this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
2019 ish
TheMystic said:
I don't know the technical details of how VMs work on PCs. But I have tried all sorts of operating systems like Windows 7, Windows XP, macOS, several Linux distros on my 10 year old HP laptop that runs on Windows 11. They all run surprisingly well and smooth. Only macOS is a bit laggy on the machine, but is still quite usable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 is way different than ARM ,
On Android phone, you cant even install ROM of a different variant of the device model, let alone install something from different device vendor.
TheMystic said:
Does Android block VMs from using the hardware directly?
It's been a while since I played around with these things, so not quite sure if I had to make any changes in the laptop recovery to make VMs work. Is this similar to unlocking bootloader on an Android phone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I mean, you need to allocate resources to a VM constantly. The power manager in Android wont like that.
TheMystic said:
It appears this project currently doesn't support Android OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Limbo supports AndroidOS.

karandpr said:
In the end, the "emulator" will have to run a GSI on top of the device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like a DSU?

V0latyle said:
Like a DSU?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
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karandpr said:
x86 is way different than ARM ,
On Android phone, you cant even install ROM of a different variant of the device model, let alone install something from different device vendor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry if my questions are too basic.
Is this a limitation of the platform (architecture) or is it purely how the OEM configured it? If it is the latter, then it is simply a question of removing the software imposed restrictions (which in turn may require the bootloader to be unlocked, unfortunately).
macOS isn't supposed to run on Windows hardware. But it does because the virtualization software (Virtual Box, VMware, etc.) makes the OS believe that the hardware is what it is designed to run on. Is this not possible on Android?
karandpr said:
I mean, you need to allocate resources to a VM constantly. The power manager in Android wont like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The virtualization software (or app) would run like any other app, isn't it? I don't think these apps would be as demanding on the hardware like some of the games are (e.g. Genshin Impact).

TheMystic said:
Sorry if my questions are too basic.
Is this a limitation of the platform (architecture) or is it purely how the OEM configured it? If it is the latter, then it is simply a question of removing the software imposed restrictions (which in turn may require the bootloader to be unlocked, unfortunately).
macOS isn't supposed to run on Windows hardware. But it does because the virtualization software (Virtual Box, VMware, etc.) makes the OS believe that the hardware is what it is designed to run on. Is this not possible on Android?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because macOS can run on x86. For now atleast.
Once macOS pulls the plug on x86 (M1 is arm) like they did with PowerPC, they will stop to work on Windows.
Lets talk about M1 macs. IIRC, you cannot run x86 Windows on those macs. You will the ARM versions of Windows, which don't run lot of traditional windows software.
iOS runs only on Correlium which is state of art engineering.
TheMystic said:
The virtualization software (or app) would run like any other app, isn't it? I don't think these apps would be as demanding on the hardware like some of the games are (e.g. Genshin Impact).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's like running PC game on PS3. PS3 had a powerful processor. Some researchers made a supercomputer with multiple PS3s.
But it simply cannot run a PC game.
Also the reason PS3 games don't work on PS5.

karandpr said:
Because macOS can run on x86. For now atleast.
Once macOS pulls the plug on x86 (M1 is arm) like they did with PowerPC, they will stop to work on Windows.
Lets talk about M1 macs. IIRC, you cannot run x86 Windows on those macs. You will the ARM versions of Windows, which don't run lot of traditional windows software.
iOS runs only on Correlium which is state of art engineering.
It's like running PC game on PS3. PS3 had a powerful processor. Some researchers made a supercomputer with multiple PS3s.
But it simply cannot run a PC game.
Also the reason PS3 games don't work on PS5.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You absolutely can run ps3 games on ps5. Whether it would run well is a different matter. Don't believe me? Run linux on the ps4 and use RPCS3.