I'll be switching to Project Fi soon from ATT. With the switch I'll lose my only reason for being rooted (wifi hotspot) since Fi offers hotspot for no extra charge. Am I able to install OTA updates with an unlocked bootloader if everything else is stock (ie. not rooted)?
geicogecko said:
I'll be switching to Project Fi soon from ATT. With the switch I'll lose my only reason for being rooted (wifi hotspot) since Fi offers hotspot for no extra charge. Am I able to install OTA updates with an unlocked bootloader if everything else is stock (ie. not rooted)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you should be able to
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
You cannot take OTA updates normally with an unlocked bootloader. The phone will download the update, but the update will fail.
You CAN update manually using either OTA or factory images from here and following my guide here.
To sideload OTA images using either stock recovery or TWRP, follow the instructions here.
Excellent, thank you. I'd rather not wipe the phone so I guess I'll settle for sideloading OTAs. And it would be nice to be able to root later on if I decide I need to.
geicogecko said:
Excellent, thank you. I'd rather not wipe the phone so I guess I'll settle for sideloading OTAs. And it would be nice to be able to root later on if I decide I need to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The nice thing about getting an OTA is that it installs in the background and a quick reboot to finish the update. Why not start fresh with a full wipe since you're changing carriers. It's not super difficult to get it set up again and now you have a clean install. I say that because I'm about to suggest you relock the bootloader and see how it runs. You obviously have the oem switch enabled so its really easy to go back and unlock if you so desire. Just a thought. I liked Project Fi when I had it but it didn't make financial sense in my case with a family plan. Good luck.
geicogecko said:
Excellent, thank you. I'd rather not wipe the phone so I guess I'll settle for sideloading OTAs. And it would be nice to be able to root later on if I decide I need to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just for ****s and giggles, I tried installing the OTA zip through TWRP. Worked like a charm.
Please note that if you do this, the kernel and recovery will revert to stock, so you'll have to boot TWRP via fastboot and reflash.
socal87 said:
Just for ****s and giggles, I tried installing the OTA zip through TWRP. Worked like a charm.
Please note that if you do this, the kernel and recovery will revert to stock, so you'll have to boot TWRP via fastboot and reflash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you let it reboot on its own, or did you manually boot into TWRP, find the file and flash it that way?
k.s.deviate said:
Did you let it reboot on its own, or did you manually boot into TWRP, find the file and flash it that way?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure I understand your question. I flashed the OTA file in recovery using TWRP. There is no way to flash things in recovery without rebooting...
socal87 said:
I'm not sure I understand your question. I flashed the OTA file in recovery using TWRP. There is no way to flash things in recovery without rebooting...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After the OTA downloaded, did you just reboot when it asked you to, or, did you manually boot into TWRP and find the OTA file to flash. OR, did you download the OTA from an third party and flash that way.
k.s.deviate said:
After the OTA downloaded, did you just reboot when it asked you to, or, did you manually boot into TWRP and find the OTA file to flash. OR, did you download the OTA from an third party and flash that way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I downloaded the OTA directly from https://developers.google.com/android/ota, then rebooted into TWRP and flashed the zip.
I'm on stock software with the exception of Magisk and Flash kernel, so OTAs always fail. Thus, I have Automatic System Updates turned off in Developer Options.
Regardless of how you do it, the OTA will always overwrite /boot, so you'll lose custom kernel and recovery.
bobby janow said:
The nice thing about getting an OTA is that it installs in the background and a quick reboot to finish the update. Why not start fresh with a full wipe since you're changing carriers. It's not super difficult to get it set up again and now you have a clean install. I say that because I'm about to suggest you relock the bootloader and see how it runs. You obviously have the oem switch enabled so its really easy to go back and unlock if you so desire. Just a thought. I liked Project Fi when I had it but it didn't make financial sense in my case with a family plan. Good luck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I may do this eventually. I want to see what having a non-rooted phone is like first. I haven't had a non-rooted phone in probably eight years. If I find out I really don't need root for anything, I may relock the bootloader.
socal87 said:
Just for ****s and giggles, I tried installing the OTA zip through TWRP. Worked like a charm.
Please note that if you do this, the kernel and recovery will revert to stock, so you'll have to boot TWRP via fastboot and reflash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wait... do you mean you actually flashed the downloaded, official OTA zip using TWRP over a rooted OS with no issues at all?... Interesting. Was that flashed OTA, a security patch only?
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using XDA Labs
The Analog Kid said:
Wait... do you mean you actually flashed the downloaded, official OTA zip using TWRP over a rooted OS with no issues at all?... Interesting. Was that flashed OTA, a security patch only?
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When the 9.0 update came out, I installed that via TWRP. Again, as noted, this will install it to both slots, and when it boots, it will boot via the other slot.
So, for instance, if you happen to be on slot A, and you install the OTA, it installs the stock kernel to slot B, and boots via that slot - stock kernel, no Magisk or TWRP. After it boots , when it is "Finishing update", it installs the stock kernel to slot A.
So, every time you flash an OTA, you need to let it boot, then reboot into bootloader, boot TWRP via fastboot, install TWRP, install kernel, and Magisk.
geicogecko said:
I may do this eventually. I want to see what having a non-rooted phone is like first. I haven't had a non-rooted phone in probably eight years. If I find out I really don't need root for anything, I may relock the bootloader.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So... How's the non-rooted phone experience going so far? Because I can't get fully used to the experience yet (I have this phone for a month now) and coming from... well, ALL of my previous devices rooted too (about an eight year span as well). Even though the phone in question (Z2 Play) runs very smooth and plain "force-close-less" (yeah, you know root) I still don't find myself quite at home without Xposed and it's useful modules, for example... Oreo is nice indeed but, on the other hand, I also have this little tiny bit temptation for Android 9... Sure, if it ever lands on my phone in less than a year! Quite a bet.
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using XDA Labs
---------- Post added at 10:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------
socal87 said:
When the 9.0 update came out, I installed that via TWRP. Again, as noted, this will install it to both slots, and when it boots, it will boot via the other slot.
So, for instance, if you happen to be on slot A, and you install the OTA, it installs the stock kernel to slot B, and boots via that slot - stock kernel, no Magisk or TWRP. After it boots , when it is "Finishing update", it installs the stock kernel to slot A.
So, every time you flash an OTA, you need to let it boot, then reboot into bootloader, boot TWRP via fastboot, install TWRP, install kernel, and Magisk.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
... That's only if you want to preserve root, I guess? AND for Pixel devices, right?
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using XDA Labs
The Analog Kid said:
So... How's the non-rooted phone experience going so far? Because I can't get fully used to the experience yet (I have this phone for a month now) and coming from... well, ALL of my previous devices rooted too (about an eight year span as well). Even though the phone in question (Z2 Play) runs very smooth and plain "force-close-less" (yeah, you know root) I still don't find myself quite at home without Xposed and it's useful modules, for example... Oreo is nice indeed but, on the other hand, I also have this little tiny bit temptation for Android 9... Sure, if it ever lands on my phone in less than a year! Quite a bet.
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using XDA Labs
---------- Post added at 10:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------
... That's only if you want to preserve root, I guess? AND for Pixel devices, right?
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. If you're otherwise stock aside from an unlocked bootloader, you can sideload the OTA zip...or, copy it to internal storage, reboot to recovery, and install it that way.
If you want to keep TWRP, you'll have to boot the TWRP image after installing and rebooting, then flash TWRP. The OTA does not wipe data (obviously); it just returns everything in /boot and /system to stock.
The Analog Kid said:
So... How's the non-rooted phone experience going so far? Because I can't get fully used to the experience yet (I have this phone for a month now) and coming from... well, ALL of my previous devices rooted too (about an eight year span as well). Even though the phone in question (Z2 Play) runs very smooth and plain "force-close-less" (yeah, you know root) I still don't find myself quite at home without Xposed and it's useful modules, for example... Oreo is nice indeed but, on the other hand, I also have this little tiny bit temptation for Android 9... Sure, if it ever lands on my phone in less than a year! Quite a bet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I actually took the advice and relocked the bootloader. No issues. I think there was one app that I would've needed root for, but I can't remember what it was. I didn't use Xposed. I don't even know if it works on the Pixel. Like I said in the opening post, I only needed it to enable wifi hotspot, so others may notice it more.
Were you able to update with ota after relocking your boot loader? I tried it after and the update would install but stay at 0% then eventually fail. Any suggestions? Thanks.
ychongy13 said:
Were you able to update with ota after relocking your boot loader? I tried it after and the update would install but stay at 0% then eventually fail. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should be able to install the latest OTA image using stock recovery:
https://developers.google.com/android/ota
Related
Hi all,
I have searched the web, but haven't found an exact answer to my question.
I have a Nexus 5, currently on 4.4.2 (KOT49H). I am unlocked, rooted + Xposed and have TWRP. I want to update to 4.4.4 preferably OTA, officially. I would like to be able to use OTA updates from now on if possible.
Currently, if I disable Xposed, and use Suvival Mode in SuperSU and try to install the OTA update, TWRP intervenes and doesn't let me.
I would like to replace TWRP with the stock recovery so I can update OTA in the future. I don't want to wipe the phone to achieve this if possible. If this isn't possible, could someone step through how to update to 4.4.4 with TWRP installed — I'm on a mac also.
Flash the stock recovery image in fastboot
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Free mobile app
jd1639 said:
Flash the stock recovery image in fastboot
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where can I find the stock recovery? Is that this: *w*w*w*.developers.google.com/android/nexus/images
providedbike said:
Where can I find the stock recovery? Is that this: *w*w*w*.developers.google.com/android/nexus/images
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, extract the image and then the zip file
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Free mobile app
OTA is the least compatible and hardest way to update. Why do you want to use this method? It's the worst option available to you.
rootSU said:
OTA is the least compatible and hardest way to update. Why do you want to use this method? It's the worst option available to you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because it would seem easier for me—AFAIK. Although this didn't work, this workflow sounds appealing to me every time an update comes out:
- Disable Xposed
- Enable Survival Mode in SuperSU
- Install OTA update
- Re-enable Xposed, done.
No USB, no computer, no terminal.
Is there another way to achieve this?
providedbike said:
Because it would seem easier for me—AFAIK. Although this didn't work, this workflow sounds appealing to me every time an update comes out:
- Disable Xposed
- Enable Survival Mode in SuperSU
- Install OTA update
- Re-enable Xposed, done.
No USB, no computer, no terminal.
Is there another way to achieve this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Running a rooting rom without a custom recovery is dangerous IMHO.
Without having to lose custom recovery
1) Download latest rooted stock ROM
2) Flash
3) Enable Xposed
rootSU said:
Running a rooting rom without a custom recovery is dangerous IMHO.
Without having to lose custom recovery
1) Download latest rooted stock ROM
2) Flash
3) Enable Xposed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does this apply for the stock rom? I'm rooted, but still stock...
providedbike said:
Does this apply for the stock rom? I'm rooted, but still stock...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, whenever there is a new stock ROM, someone makes a rooted stock flashable zip of it. Also if you make any small changes to system, sometimes like adblocking, OTA will fail but flashable zip of rom will just override all that bs.
latest 4.4.4 rooted stock rom is in a thread which you can find i the resources section of the sticky-roll-up thread. You can get there via my signature.
That way, you can take a nandroid backup so if anything goes wrong after the update, you can do a full restore, where as with OTA you will not be able to with stock recovery.
rootSU said:
Yes, whenever there is a new stock ROM, someone makes a rooted stock flashable zip of it. Also if you make any small changes to system, sometimes like adblocking, OTA will fail but flashable zip of rom will just override all that bs.
latest 4.4.4 rooted stock rom is in a thread which you can find i the resources section of the sticky-roll-up thread. You can get there via my signature.
That way, you can take a nandroid backup so if anything goes wrong after the update, you can do a full restore, where as with OTA you will not be able to with stock recovery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok great that's very helpful, thanks!
providedbike said:
Ok great that's very helpful, thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No problem.
I just think that way is easier....I wouldn't want you putting extra work in, if you dont have to. It also gives you more freedom to work with mods in the future too, or kernels etc
rootSU said:
No problem.
I just think that way is easier....I wouldn't want you putting extra work in, if you dont have to. It also gives you more freedom to work with mods in the future too, or kernels etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep it's all good. For some reason, I had this little fear of the fact it's an official stock rom, that's been "toyed" with. But of course that makes no sense really, considering I'm willing to install many third party apps and processes that could easily alter/mess my phone up.
Do the rooted stock roms get released fairly rapidly after the official one is released?
providedbike said:
Yep it's all good. For some reason, I had this little fear of the fact it's an official stock rom, that's been "toyed" with. But of course that makes no sense really, considering I'm willing to install many third party apps and processes that could easily alter/mess my phone up.
Do the rooted stock roms get released fairly rapidly after the official one is released?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah. as soon as the factory image is released. Maybe a day or two. Which is before 99% of people even receive the OTA notification
rootSU said:
Yeah. as soon as the factory image is released. Maybe a day or two. Which is before 99% of people even receive the OTA notification
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Perfect, thanks for clearing things up for me.
Just checking, I'll make a backup before I flash, but technically, will all my data still be there if all goes to plan?
providedbike said:
Perfect, thanks for clearing things up for me.
Just checking, I'll make a backup before I flash, but technically, will all my data still be there if all goes to plan?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep. the /data partition is not touched. Just /system and /boot (ROM and Kernel)
rootSU said:
Yep. the /data partition is not touched. Just /system and /boot (ROM and Kernel)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great I'll do it tonight
Title kind of stays it all. I have a Google Play Store phone, unlocked the bootloader and rooted. Do I need to unroot to take the update VZW says is coming today? Unroot and re-lock the bootloader?
I do not have TWRP installed. Should I install that and just wait for a flashable .zip?
Thanks for any help!
Coronado is dead said:
Title kind of stays it all. I have a Google Play Store phone, unlocked the bootloader and rooted. Do I need to indoor to take the update VZW says is coming today? Indoor and unlock the bootloader?
I do not have TWRP installed. Should I install that and just wait for a flashable .zip?
Thanks for any help!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your post is confusing. You have a Google model but you want to take a Verizon update? That won't happen via OTA. If you're rooted with or without TWRP an OTA will fail. You'll need to download a stock file and flash it manually. Then you can update from it. For example, I flashed a stock Google rom to my Verizon model and immediately received an OTA. Then I flashed TWRP and rooted again.
What do you mean by "do I need to indoor"?
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------
No need to lock the bootloader.... Ever. Unless you need to send in for warranty.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
joshw0000 said:
Your post is confusing. You have a Google model but you want to take a Verizon update? That won't happen via OTA. If you're rooted with or without TWRP an OTA will fail. You'll need to download a stock file and flash it manually. Then you can update from it. For example, I flashed a stock Google rom to my Verizon model and immediately received an OTA. Then I flashed TWRP and rooted again.
What do you mean by "do I need to indoor"?
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------
No need to lock the bootloader.... Ever. Unless you need to send in for warranty.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, thanks for replying
1. Indoor was an autocorrect I guess, was on my phone before. I meant: 'do I need to unroot.' I'll correct that now.
2. Well, I have a Google Play phone, but a Verizon SIM in it. As such, I receive the Verizon specific firmwares, that's how the Pixels pull (I think). My current build is NDE63X, which as I understand it is the Verizon version of the last update. I've never flashed a full ROM (well, not on this phone ), so the phone pulled it all on its own.
Coronado is dead said:
Hey, thanks for replying
1. Indoor was an autocorrect I guess, was on my phone before. I meant: 'do I need to unroot.' I'll correct that now.
2. Well, I have a Google Play phone, but a Verizon SIM in it. As such, I receive the Verizon specific firmwares, that's how the Pixels pull (I think). My current build is NDE63X, which as I understand it is the Verizon version of the last update. I've never flashed a full ROM (well, not on this phone ), so the phone pulled it all on its own.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Crap you're right. I flashed NDE63V last night and let my phone update.... back to NDE63X.
You can download firmwares here - https://developers.google.com/android/images
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Download firmware you want to flash from https://developers.google.com/android/images and flash it with http://forum.xda-developers.com/pixel/development/tool-skipsoft-android-toolkit-google-t3482761
Coronado is dead said:
Title kind of stays it all. I have a Google Play Store phone, unlocked the bootloader and rooted. Do I need to unroot to take the update VZW says is coming today? Unroot and re-lock the bootloader?
I do not have TWRP installed. Should I install that and just wait for a flashable .zip?
Thanks for any help!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I suggest following the how to apply OTA via fastboot guide.
I downloaded the OTA, used adb sideload to apply it. Let the phone reboot and finish the update. Then **BOOTED** twrp and flashed SuperSU 2.78 sr5
VadimTk said:
Download firmware you want to flash from https://developers.google.com/android/images and flash it with http://forum.xda-developers.com/pixel/development/tool-skipsoft-android-toolkit-google-t3482761
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanku
Tried to use adb sideload to install this update. Got an error that says "Could not find 'META-INF/com/google/android/update-binary" in the zip file. Opening the zip in winrar shows that it is absolutely NOT structured with that format, but after downloading the update multiple times I can confidently say that it isn't an issue of file corruption. I am guessing it is because I have TWRP installed and it is expecting stock recovery, but I am not 100% sure how to resolve this.
I have a verizon phone unlocked by depixel8 and I just really don't want to flash any stock image for fear that it would relock and force me to take the new OTA during initial setup.
renegadeone8 said:
Tried to use adb sideload to install this update. Got an error that says "Could not find 'META-INF/com/google/android/update-binary" in the zip file. Opening the zip in winrar shows that it is absolutely NOT structured with that format, but after downloading the update multiple times I can confidently say that it isn't an issue of file corruption. I am guessing it is because I have TWRP installed and it is expecting stock recovery, but I am not 100% sure how to resolve this.
I have a verizon phone unlocked by depixel8 and I just really don't want to flash any stock image for fear that it would relock and force me to take the new OTA during initial setup.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have an unlocked VZW Pixel as well, you can flash the OTA update via adb sideload with the factory recovery just fine. Your bootloader will stay unlocked unless you lock it yourself. The only difference is with the latest update, you can't unlock it if you do lock it. So just leave it unlocked and you're fine. As was already said, let it boot, then flash root again and you're back in business.
Thanks
jjlangen said:
I have an unlocked VZW Pixel as well, you can flash the OTA update via adb sideload with the factory recovery just fine. Your bootloader will stay unlocked unless you lock it yourself. The only difference is with the latest update, you can't unlock it if you do lock it. So just leave it unlocked and you're fine. As was already said, let it boot, then flash root again and you're back in business.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am pretty sure having TWRP was the issue. I couldn't for the life of me get the OTA to flash, but it flashed the full stock image (replacing TWRP with stock recovery in the process) just fine. I realized after I wrote this that manually flashing wouldn't affect the bootloader and just went for it.
I don't even really need TWRP on this phone for now, I really only unlocked for when Cyanogen gets ported and incase any cool custom Kernels come out, but am just going to leave it stock for now.
Thanks to user @NinjaBoyLao for the heads up... seems a new update is appearing on Moto X Pure, anybody else seeing it?
https://mobilesupport.lenovo.com/us/en/solution/MS124799
Screenshot attached.
EDIT: A see a few MXPE users in this thread have seen an update today as well.
Just checked and I'm now downloading the 8 MB update.
Yes I got it. It's just the Oct security update. It takes care of the wifi issue.
acejavelin said:
Thanks to user @NinjaBoyLao for the heads up... seems a new update is appearing on Moto X Pure, anybody else seeing it?
https://mobilesupport.lenovo.com/us/en/solution/MS124799
Screenshot attached.
EDIT: A see a few MXPE users in this thread have seen an update today as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just got the notification here. I'm currently on 22 (Verizon). I'm rooted w/xposed so I can't take it without a full fastboot flash, but I downloaded it and extracted it. It's about 8mb. For other users, this is if you are on stock -22 and want to sideload the -25 ota from -22. I cannot confirm if this will work if you are on -23.
Blur_Version.25.11.22.clark_retus.retus.en.US: https://mega.nz/#!GR4yha5B!WT97ryQRKD8V0EkefLj6WHwUdTs3boMJea0D3e4ZSGY
autosurgeon said:
Yes I got it. It's just the Oct security update. It takes care of the wifi issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what wifi issue?
I'm rooted with just magisk and TWRP in my recovery partition, should I attempt to take this and/or capture it to verify the other capture?
jaysus145 said:
what wifi issue?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty sure the user means the WiFi Vulnerability KRACK... https://www.krackattacks.com/
jaysus145 said:
what wifi issue?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
KRACK is the issue it primarily addresses.
Can confirm, I just received the notification as well, USA on AT&T, no root but unlocked bootloader. I flashed to 25.200-22 manually.
I'm not sure how I should proceed if I plan on getting root and possibly lock bootloader again.
i did the update and my phone don't get out of the twrp screen. what i need to do now?
You cannot take updates if you are not completely stock. Yeesh it amazes me how few people root and fiddle without any idea what they are doing.
Got an update today. I returned to stock a while back to get nougat. I've had battery issues since even after factory reset. But I digress. Got this update today. I'm on Sprint.
Once we install this. Will there be any harm going back to .22? Have to say at least they are still pushing some updates out.
StankFiss said:
Once we install this. Will there be any harm going back to .22? Have to say at least they are still pushing some updates out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same rules apply as always... Downgrading is questionable at best, this seems to be a boot image update only though, since it is merely 8MB, so it should be possible to downgrade successfully but I don't think anyone has tried yet.
I received the update notification just now. Unfortunately I have TWRP and rooted with Magisk. I guess I'll have to wait for an OTA flashable zip.
annoyingduck said:
Just got the notification here. I'm currently on 22 (Verizon). I'm rooted w/xposed so I can't take it without a full fastboot flash, but I downloaded it and extracted it. It's about 8mb. For other users, this is if you are on stock -22 and want to sideload the -25 ota from -22. I cannot confirm if this will work if you are on -23.
Blur_Version.25.11.22.clark_retus.retus.en.US: https://mega.nz/#!GR4yha5B!WT97ryQRKD8V0EkefLj6WHwUdTs3boMJea0D3e4ZSGY
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I remember correctly, I can't just flash this via TWRP, correct? What are the fastboot flash commands for these files, or will I be better off waiting for someone to just upload a TWRP flashable version?
Thanks!
Just got an alert this morning. Not going to take it. Will wait for flashable file.
On Verizon and running .22 . Got the update message for 25.201.1. My phone has TWRP, SU root, a new logo.bin and Xposed.
I will be waiting for a flashable zip file. Any volunteers?
I wonder if there is any .23 goodness in this update such as newer radios for BT.
slicetwo said:
If I remember correctly, I can't just flash this via TWRP, correct? What are the fastboot flash commands for these files, or will I be better off waiting for someone to just upload a TWRP flashable version?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No TWRP. The file I provided is the actual OTA zip from Motorola. It will only apply from the stock recovery (side load) if you are on the -22 build unmodified. If your just stock with systemless root and left TWRP in read only mode, you could simply unroot, fastboot flash the stock recovery and then take the OTA. You would also have to fastboot flash any other modified partitions too from the -22 firmware (like if you changed the logo.bin). However, if your like me and are using the official N xposed or have allowed modifications in TWRP, you would need a full flash of the stock -22 firmware. In this case you could simply omit the bootloader lock, and data wipe commands and "dirty flash" the -22 firmware, take the OTA, and then re-root.
Note: I haven't had the time to do this yet. I cannot confirm if root/Xposed are working correctly on this -25 OTA, but I see no reason it wouldn't. I'm hoping I'll have time later to do it. I honestly don't care if there is some sort of failure, I'll be rocking a Pixel 2 soon. So I will be the guinea pig.
annoyingduck said:
No TWRP. The file I provided is the actual OTA zip from Motorola. It will only apply from the stock recovery (side load) if you are on the -22 build unmodified. If your just stock with systemless root and left TWRP in read only mode, you could simply unroot, fastboot flash the stock recovery and then take the OTA. You would also have to fastboot flash any other modified partitions too from the -22 firmware (like if you changed the logo.bin). However, if your like me and are using the official N xposed or have allowed modifications in TWRP, you would need a full flash of the stock -22 firmware. In this case you could simply omit the bootloader lock, and data wipe commands and "dirty flash" the -22 firmware, take the OTA, and then re-root.
Note: I haven't had the time to do this yet. I cannot confirm if root/Xposed are working correctly on this -25 OTA, but I see no reason it wouldn't. I'm hoping I'll have time later to do it. I honestly don't care if there is some sort of failure, I'll be rocking a Pixel 2 soon. So I will be the guinea pig.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah... that's to much damn work. Haha. I am running Xposed and such. I'll just wait to see if someone makes a flashable file.
When will the update madness with our phone ends???
Downloading right now...has anyone installed it yet?
liquor said:
When will the update madness with our phone ends???
Downloading right now...has anyone installed it yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When will it end? Probably August 2020 as Essential has promised 2 years of OS updates and 3 of security updates like the Pixel. Android Q would be the last OS update, followed by a year of security updates. And August because the phone launched late August. It might get support through September. All assuming nothing happens to Essential before then.
Installed the zip from Essential, haven't had much time to see if any differences that are noticeable.
OTA Zip
Fastboot zip
Anybody else getting "Couldn't Update" message after reverting back to May update from Q Beta?
goofball2k said:
Installed the zip from Essential, haven't had much time to see if any differences that are noticeable.
OTA Zip
Fastboot zip
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you apply those OTA.zips like you would for any ROM? Or do you wipe dalvik, system, and data then flash the OTA.zip. I wanted to ask before I winded up in some crazy ****. I went ahead and backed up my phone.
jxcorex28 said:
Do you apply those OTA.zips like you would for any ROM? Or do you wipe dalvik, system, and data then flash the OTA.zip. I wanted to ask before I winded up in some crazy ****. I went ahead and backed up my phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have TWRP installed. This is my way of doing the update.
Ensure the OTA zip and TWRP zip (optional, you can choose to install TWRP your own way) and Magisk zip (optional, only if you want to be rooted) are on the phone storage
Reboot to TWRP recovery
Select Install, then install the OTA zip file and then the TWRP recovery zip.
Reboot to system, or if you wish to have Magisk installed, flash the Magisk zip file.
knochnkopf said:
Anybody else getting "Couldn't Update" message after reverting back to May update from Q Beta?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, have the exact same problem.
After disliking Android Q Beta (had issues with calls) I flashed Android 9 May update (fastboot). Now the June update won't install
cjscholten said:
Yeah, have the exact same problem.
After disliking Android Q Beta (had issues with calls) I flashed Android 9 May update (fastboot). Now the June update won't install
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had no issues installing the June OTA through TWRP after going back to stock May ROM from the Q Beta.
I would recommend you to back up again and start with the stock fastboot June ROM.
Good luck.
Sent from my PH-1 using XDA Labs
cjscholten said:
Yeah, have the exact same problem.
After disliking Android Q Beta (had issues with calls) I flashed Android 9 May update (fastboot). Now the June update won't install
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you contacted Essential about the issue? I sent them a message yesterday with my device info and the process I used to flash back to the May 2019 update. Haven't heard from them yet. Seems like an odd problem. Only thing I can think of is maybe it has something to do with a scripting error in the batch file used to flash back to stock. I also went into my bootloader to verify that was locked so it should for all intents and purposes behave as a stock device. I have no root or custom recovery installed.
---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------
Anybody know if flashing the OTA file from the Essential website vs the FastBoot file will completely wipe my device or just install over the top like a normal OTA? Only reason I ask is the OTA download is 330MB but the OTA file from the website is over 1GB. I really don't want to wipe my device AGAIN after just doing it less than a month ago.
Update: Flashed OTA zip from stock recovery without loss of data. They should really make that clearer on their website because it says flashing OTA "may" result in loss of data.
knochnkopf said:
Have you contacted Essential about the issue? I sent them a message yesterday with my device info and the process I used to flash back to the May 2019 update. Haven't heard from them yet. Seems like an odd problem. Only thing I can think of is maybe it has something to do with a scripting error in the batch file used to flash back to stock. I also went into my bootloader to verify that was locked so it should for all intents and purposes behave as a stock device. I have no root or custom recovery installed.
---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------
Anybody know if flashing the OTA file from the Essential website vs the FastBoot file will completely wipe my device or just install over the top like a normal OTA? Only reason I ask is the OTA download is 330MB but the OTA file from the website is over 1GB. I really don't want to wipe my device AGAIN after just doing it less than a month ago.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I flashed the OTA via TWRP and retained all app's and the data without any problems.
Sent from my PH-1 using XDA Labs
The new update broke fastboot for me. Anyone else having issues with it? The update was taken OTA and runs fine, but I can't flash boot images or twrp anymore. Just gets a can't be read error.
Jz5678910 said:
The new update broke fastboot for me. Anyone else having issues with it? The update was taken OTA and runs fine, but I can't flash boot images or twrp anymore. Just gets a can't be read error.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's a fastboot zip linked in the previous page. Not sure if it'll help but maybe.
Essential PH-1, /e/ 0.6-n ROM, microG (NoGapps), XDA Legacy
marcdw said:
There's a fastboot zip linked in the previous page. Not sure if it'll help but maybe.
Essential PH-1, /e/ 0.6-n ROM, microG (NoGapps), XDA Legacy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually I did try that, but I can't flash it due to fastboot not working unfortunately. It seems like one of my slots is corrupted.
Jz5678910 said:
The new update broke fastboot for me. Anyone else having issues with it? The update was taken OTA and runs fine, but I can't flash boot images or twrp anymore. Just gets a can't be read error.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't use TWRP, but I was able to successfully flash Magisk-patched boot image after the latest update, so fastboot seems to be working just fine for me...
I am running 10.05, I can't decide whether to install twrp, dd root, or magdisk. Given that I have the most current version of oxygen os, what would be the best way to root my phone?
Don't misinterpret my ignorance for lazyness, a majority of guides I've seen aren't recent and don't go over pros & cons of the method.
Thank you, I'm willing to donate for help.
Edit: I'm stupid, I was in wrong forum. Please ignore this post and what I've said!
You only need a patched image if you don't want to install TWRP. If you install TWRP, I'd simply ADB sideload Magisk to get root.
That's what I've done and it works just fine.
This assumes that you're using a OnePlus 7 Pro, and not a 7T Pro. Not got a 7T, so can't comment on that.
Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk
Bagpuss said:
You only need a patched image if you don't want to install TWRP. If you install TWRP, I'd simply ADB sideload Magisk to get root.
That's what I've done and it works just fine.
This assumes that you're using a OnePlus 7 Pro, and not a 7T Pro. Not got a 7T, so can't comment on that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Edit: I'm stupid, I was in wrong forum. Please ignore this post and what I've said!
Lossyx said:
TWRP doesn't work on devices launched with Android 10, which has been discussed many times.
My reply above stands true, a patched boot image is the only way as for right now.
(And we're on a 7T Pro forum)
Sent from my OnePlus7TPro using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you positive? I see TWRP install guides everywhere. From what I've read TWRP with magdisk (not SuperSU, us it's not open source) is the best way to root with the most flexibility. What if I'm running 10.03.0GM21AA, and there is no patched image? Do I need to roll back?
Lossyx said:
There is only one way to root, and that is by using a patched image. Check the guides section, there's probably a patched image of your device, if not, you'll have to make your own.
And what's your version? AA or BA?
Sent from my OnePlus7TPro using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AA. So do I need to roll back? I bought the OP7P because I stupidly assumed it would be as easy/flexible to root as my past OP devices. It's ironic I switched from a Samsung devices to a OP for the ability for a stress-free rooting experience and I got the same problem lol. I might just return the phone for another, I'd prefer something with an SD card slot anyway.
What's the best phone with SD card feature that can run TWRP magdisk without issues like using banking apps and Netflix?
Forgive my ignorance, I am still in the learning process.
Lossyx said:
TWRP doesn't work on devices launched with Android 10, which has been discussed many times.
My reply above stands true, a patched boot image is the only way as for right now.
(And we're on a 7T Pro forum)
Sent from my OnePlus7TPro using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No we're on a 7 Pro forum. And TWRP works fine on the 7 Pro, but you need a patched version of some sort last time I checked.
sixisixsix said:
I am running 10.05, I can't decide whether to install twrp, dd root, or magdisk. Given that I have the most current version of oxygen os, what would be the best way to root my phone?
Don't misinterpret my ignorance for lazyness, a majority of guides I've seen aren't recent and don't go over pros & cons of the method.
Thank you, I'm willing to donate for help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To root my phone, I didn't even use TWRP. I downloaded the lastest OOS version from OnePlus, extracted the boot image, copied that to my phone, Magisk patched that boot image file (you don't need root for that, you can use the Magisk manager). Then unlocked the phone, and installed the bootloader I just patched while the phone was in bootloader mode (fastboot flash boot boot.img or whatever).
Might not be the easiest, but I think it's clean, however back then I did not know about the option to properly use TWRP. Maybe I can find it, but I know it's possible to just unlock the 7 Pro, and then from the bootloader boot to TWRP once without flashing it, and install Magisk.
QUBiCA said:
No we're on a 7 Pro forum. And TWRP works fine on the 7 Pro, but you need a patched version of some sort last time I checked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh damn, I'm actually stupid... How did I miss were on 7 Pro?!
@sixisixsix please ignore everything I've said! I will edit my posts.
Sorry once again
Sent from my OnePlus7TPro using XDA Labs
sixisixsix said:
AA. So do I need to roll back? I bought the OP7P because I stupidly assumed it would be as easy/flexible to root as my past OP devices. It's ironic I switched from a Samsung devices to a OP for the ability for a stress-free rooting experience and I got the same problem lol. I might just return the phone for another, I'd prefer something with an SD card slot anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've found OP devices (having owned two now) to be easy to root, and very friendly to the mod/root community such as XDA. Samsung is the opposite, in my experience (although each Sammy device is different, some better than others in this regard).
The main complexity with the 7 Pro is not that it is an OP device per se; but that it has something called A/B partitions, which are used for "seamless" OTA updates (Pixel devices use this scheme also - as well as a number of other phones).
The thing with A/B partition devices, is that they do NOT have a discrete recovery partition that you can just flash TWRP to. Therefore, you need to patch the boot.img partition (which on A/B devices contains both kernel and recovery, along with ramdisk). It is a little trickier, and somewhat more of a learning curve. But once you've learned that basic difference, it is not too bad.
It seems that the list A/B partitions devices is growing. So while I'm not an expert in the industry or anything, it appears that this is where Android is going (A/B is certainly not going away anytime soon, in any case).
So while the SD card feature is a legitimate difference (and a discriminator for some), I would say you should not make the A/B partition difference scare you away from OP devices. Maybe "too much information", but you can read more about the A/B partition scheme here: https://www.xda-developers.com/how-...ess-updates-affect-custom-development-on-xda/
---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------
QUBiCA said:
To root my phone, I didn't even use TWRP. I downloaded the lastest OOS version from OnePlus, extracted the boot image, copied that to my phone, Magisk patched that boot image file (you don't need root for that, you can use the Magisk manager). Then unlocked the phone, and installed the bootloader I just patched while the phone was in bootloader mode (fastboot flash boot boot.img or whatever).
Might not be the easiest, but I think it's clean, however back then I did not know about the option to properly use TWRP. Maybe I can find it, but I know it's possible to just unlock the 7 Pro, and then from the bootloader boot to TWRP once without flashing it, and install Magisk.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Certainly a valid approach (fastboot flash a patched boot image). The "other" (TWRP) method works as well, and probably a little easier for most folks:
1) Unlock bootloader
2) fastboot boot twrp.img
Note that this is just remote booting a TWRP image, not installing it. It simply allows the next steps. You can't flash a TWRP image directly, for the reason I've noted above.
3) Once booted to TWRP, flash TWRP installer zip (OPTIONAL). This patched the boot.img so that TWRP is installed. You only need to do this if you want TWRP installed on the phone.
4) Also in "booted" TWRP, flash the Magisk zip.
The main fundamental difference, is that Magisk is patching the boot.img for you, instead of doing it yourself. Have the files (TWRP.zip and Magisk) on the phone before starting the process, and it is really pretty simple and fast.
The nice thing about the patched boot.img method, is that is worked even when TWRP method did not. This applied to when the phone was first released, and the command "fastboot boot" was broken (therefore not possible to fastboot boot TWRP). This happened again when the device was updated to Android 10. Although the developer got fastboot boot working fairly quickly in both circumstances.
Lossyx said:
Edit: I'm stupid, I was in wrong forum. Please ignore this post and what I've said!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
redpoint73 said:
I've found OP devices (having owned two now) to be easy to root, and very friendly to the mod/root community such as XDA. Samsung is the opposite, in my experience (although each Sammy device is different, some better than others in this regard).
The main complexity with the 7 Pro is not that it is an OP device per se; but that it has something called A/B partitions, which are used for "seamless" OTA updates (Pixel devices use this scheme also - as well as a number of other phones).
The thing with A/B partition devices, is that they do NOT have a discrete recovery partition that you can just flash TWRP to. Therefore, you need to patch the boot.img partition (which on A/B devices contains both kernel and recovery, along with ramdisk). It is a little trickier, and somewhat more of a learning curve. But once you've learned that basic difference, it is not too bad.
It seems that the list A/B partitions devices is growing. So while I'm not an expert in the industry or anything, it appears that this is where Android is going (A/B is certainly not going away anytime soon, in any case).
So while the SD card feature is a legitimate difference (and a discriminator for some), I would say you should not make the A/B partition difference scare you away from OP devices. Maybe "too much information", but you can read more about the A/B partition scheme here: https://www.xda-developers.com/how-...ess-updates-affect-custom-development-on-xda/
---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------
Certainly a valid approach (fastboot flash a patched boot image). The "other" (TWRP) method works as well, and probably a little easier for most folks:
1) Unlock bootloader
2) fastboot boot twrp.img
Note that this is just remote booting a TWRP image, not installing it. It simply allows the next steps. You can't flash a TWRP image directly, for the reason I've noted above.
3) Once booted to TWRP, flash TWRP installer zip (OPTIONAL). This patched the boot.img so that TWRP is installed. You only need to do this if you want TWRP installed on the phone.
4) Also in "booted" TWRP, flash the Magisk zip.
The main fundamental difference, is that Magisk is patching the boot.img for you, instead of doing it yourself. Have the files (TWRP.zip and Magisk) on the phone before starting the process, and it is really pretty simple and fast.
The nice thing about the patched boot.img method, is that is worked even when TWRP method did not. This applied to when the phone was first released, and the command "fastboot boot" was broken (therefore not possible to fastboot boot TWRP). This happened again when the device was updated to Android 10. Although the developer got fastboot boot working fairly quickly in both circumstances.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post in such detail! Wouldn't installing TWRP give me more flexibility for future updates? If I go the flashed image route won't I need erase my data on my phone every time I update?
sixisixsix said:
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post in such detail! Wouldn't installing TWRP give me more flexibility for future updates? If I go the flashed image route won't I need erase my data on my phone every time I update?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think TWRP would give you more flexibility when it comes to updates, unless you are planning on switching ROMs often, but if this phone is your daily driver I would recommend against that.
If you unlock the phone your data will be wiped, but only once. After that it is completely up to you, if you switch ROMs and pick something that is completely different from stock, it is indeed recommended to wipe data to prevent weird issues. But for a regular system update (if you simply stick with the stock ROM and use Magisk for root, you can still receive normal updates from OnePlus), or an update of the same custom ROM, you do not need to wipe data. I wiped data only once, when I unlocked it, because I had to.
Flashing/installing TWRP generally is not necessary and like @redpoint73 explained, with the "new" A/B system, it is not advised to flash TWRP as it is combined with the boot image (which your phone needs to start up, and is updated after every update, so after every update you will lose TWRP again if I am correct). What @redpoint73 explained is that instead of installing (AKA flashing) TWRP, it is possible to just start it up (boot it) once without installing it. From there you can install Magisk on your stock OnePlus ROM and use the benefits of a rooted system.
QUBiCA said:
Flashing/installing TWRP generally is not necessary and like @redpoint73 explained, with the "new" A/B system, it is not advised to flash TWRP as it is combined with the boot image (which your phone needs to start up, and is updated after every update, so after every update you will lose TWRP again if I am correct).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is correct that you lose the TWRP install when you update (as well as losing root). But it is just a simple matter of flashing the TWRP installer zip after the update (I do this the same time as re-flashing Magisk after OTA update), which takes about 10 seconds to accomplish. I wouldn't personally take that as a reason to "not" flash TWRP. But it is a personal preference whether to install TWRP or not. The reasons to have TWRP installed on the phone are much reduced from previous devices. In the past I would have said that being rooted without a custom recovery is asking for trouble. But now, with A/B partitions, along with the fastboot stock ROMs, the choice becomes much less clear. To the point that installing TWRP is purely optional.
I still personally believe that having TWRP installed gives you more recovery options. But again, it is a personal choice, and certainly not mandatory by any means.
---------- Post added at 09:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 AM ----------
sixisixsix said:
Wouldn't installing TWRP give me more flexibility for future updates?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, no (as QUBiCA touched on above).
Reason being, OTA updates will still come through on this device (even rooted). And you can still flash (or put OTA files on the phone to flash) using the built-in update engine in the phone's settings menu. Which gives you the option to update to either A/B partition slot. Plus, you can just re-flash TWRP (if desired) and Magisk after the update, straight from the Magisk Manager.
The trick is to make sure you do NOT reboot immediately after an OTA update (when rooted). Then simply open Magisk Manager, flash TWRP as if it were a Magisk module (optional, if you want TWRP installed again). Then install Magisk again through the Magisk Manager as well.. Now you can reboot, and you will be updated with root.
sixisixsix said:
If I go the flashed image route won't I need erase my data on my phone every time I update?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No (again, just backing up the answer already provided). There is not a big difference between the two methods. In either case, you are patching the boot.img partition to be rooted (whether you flash a patched boot.img, or you have Magisk patch it for you). And in both cases, you don't need to wipe your data.
redpoint73 said:
It is correct that you lose the TWRP install when you update (as well as losing root). But it is just a simple matter of flashing the TWRP installer zip after the update (I do this the same time as re-flashing Magisk after OTA update), which takes about 10 seconds to accomplish. I wouldn't personally take that as a reason to "not" flash TWRP. But it is a personal preference whether to install TWRP or not. The reasons to have TWRP installed on the phone are much reduced from previous devices. In the past I would have said that being rooted without a custom recovery is asking for trouble. But now, with A/B partitions, along with the fastboot stock ROMs, the choice becomes much less clear. To the point that installing TWRP is purely optional.
I still personally believe that having TWRP installed gives you more recovery options. But again, it is a personal choice, and certainly not mandatory by any means.
---------- Post added at 09:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 AM ----------
Actually, no (as QUBiCA touched on above).
Reason being, OTA updates will still come through on this device (even rooted). And you can still flash (or put OTA files on the phone to flash) using the built-in update engine in the phone's settings menu. Which gives you the option to update to either A/B partition slot. Plus, you can just re-flash TWRP (if desired) and Magisk after the update, straight from the Magisk Manager.
The trick is to make sure you do NOT reboot immediately after an OTA update (when rooted). Then simply open Magisk Manager, flash TWRP as if it were a Magisk module (optional, if you want TWRP installed again). Then install Magisk again through the Magisk Manager as well.. Now you can reboot, and you will be updated with root.
No (again, just backing up the answer already provided). There is not a big difference between the two methods. In either case, you are patching the boot.img partition to be rooted (whether you flash a patched boot.img, or you have Magisk patch it for you). And in both cases, you don't need to wipe your data.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So if I used the patched version of 10.3.0 and another new version comes out I can just download it through settings and I will remained rooted?
Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk
sixisixsix said:
So if I used the patched version of 10.3.0 and another new version comes out I can just download it through settings and I will remained rooted?
Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NO.
You need to go through the process and flash Magisk from inside Magisk Manager.
tech_head said:
NO.
You need to go through the process and flash Magisk from inside Magisk Manager.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay so I downloaded magdisk manager, I flashed the patched version of 10.03, then when I rebooted I hit install update on magdisk and when the phone rebooted it was no longer rooted.
Even the guides for flashing aren't in depth enough for me. Can you help me out real quick?
sixisixsix said:
So if I used the patched version of 10.3.0 and another new version comes out I can just download it through settings and I will remained rooted?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should get the OTA update and be able to download it through settings. BUT, after you install the update, you still need to do as I already said in order to remain rooted:
redpoint73 said:
The trick is to make sure you do NOT reboot immediately after an OTA update (when rooted). Then simply open Magisk Manager, flash TWRP as if it were a Magisk module (optional, if you want TWRP installed again). Then install Magisk again through the Magisk Manager as well.. Now you can reboot, and you will be updated with root.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ----------
sixisixsix said:
Okay so I downloaded magdisk manager, I flashed the patched version of 10.03, then when I rebooted I hit install update on magdisk and when the phone rebooted it was no longer rooted.
Even the guides for flashing aren't in depth enough for me. Can you help me out real quick?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You seem to be mixing the two processes: Install update in Magisk is for when you update in the future. You shouldn't have to do this rooting the existing ROM with the patched boot.img method.
For the patched boot.img method, you should just be able to flash the patched boot.img, flash the Magisk apk, and open Magisk, and it should say rooted.
My recommendation is follow this guide: https://forum.xda-developers.com/oneplus-7-pro/how-to/guide-bootloader-unlock-twrp-install-t3940368
I can't possibly see how it can be any more in depth.