Desperately need help w/issue After 8.0 Update... - Samsung Galaxy S8+ Questions & Answers

S8+ /S8 Global Unlocked Variants, (ie: G955FD, etc) Desperately need help w/issue After 8.0 Update...
Hi, I have a G955FD & have family members with this same model, as well as the Global unlocked regular S8-dual sim. We all have the same issue after the Samsung 8.0.0 update. The phone is no longer reliable. Randomly, these devices will not have any ring on incoming calls. If they don't leave a VM, then you have no indication of a missed phone call. In addition, random periods where text messages will also just not come thru. Difference on the texts is, when you reboot, they all populate in the message app and notifications. But the incoming calls are not known and lost forever w/o a VM left for you by caller.
I have been in contact with Samsung, although they indicate right off that I have no warranty because I didn't buy a carrier device from an authorized vendor for my local use, they were open & helpful to reveal that they are aware of '8.0 ringer issues' on the unlocked global devices. BTW, this must be a huge number of people across the world with this problem, but like my friends/family, originally think they have signal/carrier issues etc. Samsung says that it should be addressed in a patch or update..... but, WHEN? I have had a messed up phone for over 3months and counting.
The only thing that can be done to attempt having the phone work 'more often' is to do a restart every hour all day long and hope that your phone will ring when someone is calling.
I, personally, being the family tech guy, am the one working on the issue so I'm here to ask for help/input.
Been dealing with this issue for over 3 months now, here's some of what I have done and what I'd like help with please...
I have attempted 5x to install a custom ROM from XDA to alleviate this issue completely, but as of now, still unsuccessful. I've been rooting/hacking my android devices since my 1st but somehow can't get the process to work thru. At this point, using Odin, I have no issue to get my phone running TWRP and rooted. Somehow, after that point something isn't going right and my phone has to be re-odin flashed with OEM ROM and then wait 1 week for OEM unlock to re-appear to try again. So, If I could complete this process next time the OEM-unlock is back up, my problem would be over.
Now, since I am having issue with completing a custom ROM install... I thought, why not flash a previous OEM ROM (7.0 NOUGAT) and again, my problem should be over and I could wait until a 9.0 update to see how that goes. So far, any 7.0 stock ROMS I have been able to find/download, have 'failed' install in Odin. (I have standard Odin, patched and Prince Comsey) so I always try them all before I say it's a true fail.
Can anyone help me to understand why, with all the root/roms Ive done, cannot get custom ROM to complete install. I was trying for the CarHD or Batman. after rom flash, something goes wrong and the phone either goes bootloop or failed verify. (BTW, couple X I did flash the no-verify to alleviate that issue but still get bootloop or no new rom boot up)
The other thing I'd love to be able to do right now that 'should' be a piece of cake, (but hasn't been) until I figure out the custom rom install issue, is to ask for anyone that can post a link to a valid ODIN-flashable Stock 7.0 NOUGAT ROM for my S8+ G955F/FD. That would solve everything for now and I'd just disable updates for the interim. As previously mentioned, the couple I have found would only FAIL on Odin flash attempts. Seeing that this is a global, unlocked device, is it possible to flash a stock rom or flash a diff CSC that can get me North America Tmobile setup (my USA provider) I noticed that the global phone has no options to disable LTE or turn wifi calling on/off etc.
I apologize if I have jumped around in my post, not provided enough details or not written very eloquently, but I am happy to provide any other needed info to move forward if any of you have ideas here. I'm just at the end of my rope with this right now.
Any help, input here is much appreciated! TIA! mark~

Trying to be helpful here.
For some folks flashing with Odin the first run through errors/fails. That issue was a PITA. I found a post somewhere which said when you hook up the phone to flash with Odin, the first attempt will fail, but to leave the phone connected, go back into download mode, and flash again. Do not unplug the phone when you do this.
For some reason there's a kink in Odin with some folks.
That info, wish I could recall who by - they deserve the recognition, anyway it solved all my Odin errors.

JeffDC said:
Trying to be helpful here.
For some folks flashing with Odin the first run through errors/fails. That issue was a PITA. I found a post somewhere which said when you hook up the phone to flash with Odin, the first attempt will fail, but to leave the phone connected, go back into download mode, and flash again. Do not unplug the phone when you do this.
For some reason there's a kink in Odin with some folks.
That info, wish I could recall who by - they deserve the recognition, anyway it solved all my Odin errors.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hey jeff, thanks for checking in when the OEM unlock button returns again tomorrow, I'll keep this in mind on my next attempt. i did encounter that fail several times with some OEM firmware flashes (trying to go back to 7.0) and this should resolve that problem. overall though, my real issue seems to be when attempting a root/custom rom instead of a stock replacement... and 'after' i get TWRP completed. I'm doing something wrong with a button hold sequence or something else. maybe need flash 'do not verify' right off too. I'm gonna go extra slow/careful following each step from a great, detailed post for TWRP/ROOT/ROM procedure that i found here over weekend written by 'jesec' what i hate the most is, i only have 1 shot doing this with the oem unlock button, if messed up, have to re-flash a stock rom and wait another 7 days to try this all again.
i still cannot believe its been about 13wks and samsung says they are aware, yet still has not patched this problem. i love my samsungs but im so fed up, i almost ordered a oneplus 6 this weekend just because of this random no ring issue.
thanks much!

Related

[Q] [BUG] WiFi not working on lollipop

Hi,
This might take a while, and maybe a fellow whiner might understand. Not for the faint of heart or busy people. Disclaimer ends. Kinda.
Naman here. I've a xt1033 Asian variant with stock 4.4.4+root. So, as obvious, bootloader is unlocked.
I'm not a patient fellow, so when someone posted lollipop soak test 5.0.2 zip, I "cleansed" my phone and flashed it.
Some partition problem happened and suddenly I can't on my device's storage, let it be by Bluetooth file transfer or via USB.
So I thought maybe I have to flash it as an update over KitKat.
Again, cleansed and flashed 4.4.4 and then dirty flash 5.0.2 soak.
This time Wi-Fi got fcuk'd up. It kept showing "WiFi turning on...", and the little flick switch was disabled, as in cannot-interact-with disabled.
"Check it tomorrow."
Next day, Official update came. Unbelievable. Resisting temptation of all sorts of plausible lollipops out there for 2 months and the day I flash soak test, official update comes 24 hours later.
So I flash stock 4.4.4 again and as a civilized user, I let Motorola update services take care, I let my phone go through all sorts of rituals.
After some time, I pick up my phone and see a dead green bot with a red caution sign hovering over its cut-open chest.
Apparently, update has failed.
I had philz recovery. So I tried opening my phone long enough to transfer the stock recovery zip. But my curse wasn't done playing around, it kept restarting my phone.
Now after 4th restart, just a wild guess, it says update failed and my phone kept still. So I hurried and put the zip and flashed it.
Finally again I wait through the update rituals. It does update again. Finally, I have it...
The Off-fcukng-cial Lollipop on my G. Guess what? "WiFi turning on...".
Thanks for your precious time, no pun intended.
Sincerely,
Fellow ”installed-kitkat-again" xdian.
P.S. I've already tried stock kernel modules, stock radio, stock kernel, stock recovery for 5.0.2 present in one of the post in development section. Also, I know its super lame to use P.S. in the internet age, but at this point in the, I don't the courage necessary to scroll up and this there.
Peace.
Try this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=49656627&postcount=3

Need, my device keeps encrypting itself!

I've only had this phone for a few weeks, bought new from Target. It is a US BLN-L24. It originally was running Marshmallow but I updated it to Nougat via the official updater (BLN-L24C567B360).
The first time I got this issue was when I rooted the stock ROM with Magisk. I later installed Apps2SD Pro (for linking apps to 2nd partition on SD card). It mounted this partition, I rebooted, the device then asks for a PIN# which I didnt have and never set. Afterwards I rebooted to @OldDroid's TWRP, it couldnt mount data partition, some error about not being able to find the crypto footer. I then used the dload method to rollback to MM, then updated to Nougat again, and rerooted, this time with systemless SuperSU instead..
Then eventually everything went fine for awhile, but it happened again. So I decided to try a custom Nougat ROM. I went with Resurrection Remix 7.1.2. And then.....it happened again. This time I had rooted with Magisk. I tried yet again, but with SuperSU. And yet again with Phh's Superuser.
I've also tried AOKP, AOSPA, LineageOS, OctN, all Nougat, the issue returns with all of them.
So, no matter what root solution I use, the encryption issue eventually returns. Magisk, SuperSU, and Phh are all supposed to disable data partition encryption. But it seems they aren't.
What I've tried so far:
1. 3 different root solutions, same results
2. Formatting data and wiping all partitions in TWRP immediately before installing a ROM zip, which is supposed to remove the encryption
3. A custom kernel (CycloX)
4. Formatting my MicroSD, as exFAT, every time I check it for errors in Windows 10 corruption is found and repaired, but it always returns. I had initially thought that the encryption might be related to the SD
It has happened numerous times, on different ROMs including stock, and MM/Nougat, and with different root solutions. I know when it happens, I get stuck on the boot logo forever. TWRP reports that data can't be mounted. At one point my phone randomly rebooted into eRecovery and I was shown a message stating that data partition was corrupted. Sometimes it happens as little as 15 mins after booting into a freshly installed ROM, sometimes it takes a few days, but it always comes back no matter what. So far several dozen times.
I'm at a loss as to what is the cause. It could be a hardware defect, a firmware defect/bug, or something I'm doing wrong/missing. So I really have to ask if others are experiencing this too, and what you did to resolve it, I'm sure I'm not the only one. Please provided detailed steps. This is driving me crazy. I bought the 6X to replace my Samsung Note 4 which recently died after 3 years of loyal service. I'm liking this phone alot, it's very powerful, but this is killing me.
If anyone can help then I would greatly appreciate it. If I can't get this resolved then I'll just sell the phone on Craigslist after returning it to stock.
Thanks!
C'mon guys, really need some help here. I know I can't be the only one with the encryption issue, since the 6X is encrypted by default.
AnonVendetta said:
C'mon guys, really need some help here. I know I can't be the only one with the encryption issue, since the 6X is encrypted by default.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually I think you are the only one with this issue. Flashing Magisk alone will remove auto-encryption. But then you already flashed custom roms.
After 4 more days of testing, I still haven't been able to find a solution. The issue has been less frequent ever since I started using the stock charging brick that came with the phone, before I was using a slightly larger LG brick, I thought it would charge faster. But maybe it was supplying too much power, which partly explains why the phone would sometimes act erratically on the battery charging screen while turned off.
But it's not solved, sometimes I still can't boot, it just gets stuck on the ROM boot logo, makes no difference whether it's stock or custom ROM. I can get past the "your device is unlocked" part though.
I no longer think encryption is the biggest part of the issue, I think the /data partition is getting corrupted. This partition uses the F2FS filesystem by default. The last few times I got stuck I booted into TWRP. But instead of doing a factory reset, I used the repair filesystem option on /data, TWRP says it repaired, then the ROM boots fine. But the problem always comes back. It seems to happen most frequently when I completely power off the device then turn it back on, but not every time.
Today I called Huawei customer service and explained, though I didn't mention TWRP, root, etc. They want me to follow up on an email by sending pics of the phone, then mail it to them so they can diagnose and fix the issue. I just restored the stock MM firmware and made sure the bootloader was locked. It was just placed it in the mail, so I'll wait until I get it back then test further to see if this happens again.
AnonVendetta said:
After 4 more days of testing, I still haven't been able to find a solution. The issue has been less frequent ever since I started using the stock charging brick that came with the phone, before I was using a slightly larger LG brick, I thought it would charge faster. But maybe it was supplying too much power, which partly explains why the phone would sometimes act erratically on the battery charging screen while turned off.
But it's not solved, sometimes I still can't boot, it just gets stuck on the ROM boot logo, makes no difference whether it's stock or custom ROM. I can get past the "your device is unlocked" part though.
I no longer think encryption is the biggest part of the issue, I think the /data partition is getting corrupted. This partition uses the F2FS filesystem by default. The last few times I got stuck I booted into TWRP. But instead of doing a factory reset, I used the repair filesystem option on /data, TWRP says it repaired, then the ROM boots fine. But the problem always comes back. It seems to happen most frequently when I completely power off the device then turn it back on, but not every time.
Today I called Huawei customer service and explained, though I didn't mention TWRP, root, etc. They want me to follow up on an email by sending pics of the phone, then mail it to them so they can diagnose and fix the issue. I just restored the stock MM firmware and made sure the bootloader was locked. It was just placed it in the mail, so I'll wait until I get it back then test further to see if this happens again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello, can you help me? I have the same model BLN-L24C567B360. I got this phone today and updated today as well right out of the box. My problem is that I installed TWRP 3.1.1.0 Berlin version for this phone and it doesn't work at all. Now I have my phone working ROM but with no recovery option. Can you give me a link with the files I need? I was thinking on putting back the original recovery.img file back but unfortunately I never thought on doing a backup of it. I read on the top that you have all original stock files. Thanks
@jaimejdv: Are you having the same encryption/corruption of the data partition that I'm getting? Because if not then you should start your own topic.
If you have installed the correct TWRP by OldDroid, via fastboot, then there is no reason it shouldn't be working. Instructions are available in other topics, I won't list them here.
There are some Marshmallow downgrade files on Huawei's website, go search for them and follow the instructions in the PDF they provide.
And BTW, I really don't appreciate you trying to hijack my topic. I understand you need help, but I posted this topic because I'm specifically having trouble with encryption/corruption. This isn't meant to be a generalized help thread.
Right now Huawei has my phone, I'm waiting on them to fix and return it so I can do more testing. If it doesn't work as expected, I'll be selling it on Craigslist.
AnonVendetta said:
@jaimejdv: Are you having the same encryption/corruption of the data partition that I'm getting? Because if not then you should start your own topic.
If you have installed the correct TWRP by OldDroid, via fastboot, then there is no reason it shouldn't be working. Instructions are available in other topics, I won't list them here.
There are some Marshmallow downgrade files on Huawei's website, go search for them and follow the instructions in the PDF they provide.
And BTW, I really don't appreciate you trying to hijack my topic. I understand you need help, but I posted this topic because I'm specifically having trouble with encryption/corruption. This isn't meant to be a generalized help thread.
Right now Huawei has my phone, I'm waiting on them to fix and return it so I can do more testing. If it doesn't work as expected, I'll be selling it on Craigslist.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can stop crying now, I won't be using your "topic" anymore. I just replied to you asking for files that you already have.
And BTW, I don't need them anymore but thanks anyways.
Yoooooo did Huawei do anything yet?
I just got the phone back in the mail this morning from Huawei, after waiting about 3 weeks. And.....THEY DIDN'T EVEN FIX IT!!! They sent it back unrepaired, with a note saying it wouldn't be fixed because their technician found water damage. But I'd say that's just a generic canned excuse to not fix it. I bought this phone very recently from Target, I never exposed it to liquids at all. I'm very careful with my phones, I have 3 old ones for over 5 years and they still look good and work fine. I don't do stupid crap like using my phone in the rain, dropping in sink, etc.
So, I unlocked the bootloader, flashed TWRP, then installed Resurrection Remix and Magisk. I did no other changes whatsoever. And sure enough, within 6 hours it was just hanging up forever on the boot logo. I went back into TWRP and got the same error about the data partition not having a crypto footer. I can repair the partition in TWRP without factory resetting, and the issue goes away for awhile, but eventually returns.
At this point I'm really angry, having spent around $230 for this phone. So I'm just going to reflash it to stock firmware and sell it on Craigslist at a loss. I don't think I'll ever buy a Huawei phone again, not just because of this phone, but also because their customer service is crap and can barely speak English, as well as their failure to honor the warranty.
I don't know what phone I'll get next, I'll probably shell out for a new ZTE Axon 7 on Amazon, with a warranty. Which also has the added advantage of having better specs than the 6X.
Oh well, life moves on.....
AnonVendetta said:
I just got the phone back in the mail this morning from Huawei, after waiting about 3 weeks. And.....THEY DIDN'T EVEN FIX IT!!! They sent it back unrepaired, with a note saying it wouldn't be fixed because their technician found water damage. But I'd say that's just a generic canned excuse to not fix it. I bought this phone very recently from Target, I never exposed it to liquids at all. I'm very careful with my phones, I have 3 old ones for over 5 years and they still look good and work fine. I don't do stupid crap like using my phone in the rain, dropping in sink, etc.
So, I unlocked the bootloader, flashed TWRP, then installed Resurrection Remix and Magisk. I did no other changes whatsoever. And sure enough, within 6 hours it was just hanging up forever on the boot logo. I went back into TWRP and got the same error about the data partition not having a crypto footer. I can repair the partition in TWRP without factory resetting, and the issue goes away for awhile, but eventually returns.
At this point I'm really angry, having spent around $230 for this phone. So I'm just going to reflash it to stock firmware and sell it on Craigslist at a loss. I don't think I'll ever buy a Huawei phone again, not just because of this phone, but also because their customer service is crap and can barely speak English, as well as their failure to honor the warranty.
I don't know what phone I'll get next, I'll probably shell out for a new ZTE Axon 7 on Amazon, with a warranty. Which also has the added advantage of having better specs than the 6X.
Oh well, life moves on.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with them. Pretty crappy that they used a lame excuse like water damage to deny responsibility in fixing the issue.
I agree with you, I will never buy Huawei again. The phone itself is great but the audio is so so bad Im trying to sell mine at a loss as well but no ones calling so Im tinkering with it again. I would be absolutely livid if I spent the money on one of the flagship Huawei phones. Oh well live and learn I guess, at least the 5T comes out sometime next month.

Bootloop after installing Xposed on Oreo, Bit of help would be appreciated.

After searching around and not being 100% sure on how I should go about fixing this particular bootloop I decided to post a thread. Bootloader unlocked, phone unlocked, FRP unlocked, and TWRP installed. Can't seem to get the phone recognized when plugged in no matter where I'm at and hisuite recovery doesn't work, nor does the erecovery or whatever it's called. I had the phone running just fine with supersu but after installing my usual Xposed/Busybox and rebooting I got caught in a bootloop. (might have been caused by being on Oreo and having some problems with a version made for Nougat or something). I've seen there are various ways to exit the loop and at this point I'd be open to any but I do notice some posts saying they almost bricked their phone while doing so. Currently on my microSD I've got a hwota update I was going to try to use. I've got no backups in TWRP either because I'm irresponsible (my fault). What can I do to just wipe the phone, reinstall any version of android and get back to where I was at. I'm a little new to this as I've only ever rooted my tablet. Thanks for the help and all the info I've taken from this forum before and hopefully now. Forgot to mention I don't know my full device number only MHA-L29 in the US.
Ok Well after laying in bed and thinking about it I wound up running HWOTA8 from TWRP since I could access that. Seemed to just bring me back to eRecovery, and I factory reset my phone. I'll reinstall TWRP and flash supersu then make a backup and try again. Not sure what happened but I seemed to be in a pretty good spot since I could access TWRP even though my phone wouldn't show up on my computer while in fastboot/Recovery mode.
edit: oh I got a new problem now. I'm on testkeys firmware, camera, sim, and bluetooth work but I can't update from 7 back to 8. I'll do more testing around before bothering to unlock bootloader or install TWRP.
I've been trying to follow the guide in this thread but to no avail. I just get software install failed and then I have to start again.
Well another day of searching google and XDA trying to figure out guides and I don't think I'm any closer to a solution to getting off test-keys. Some seem to suggest that you need to go back to MM, some suggest running HWOTA, some suggest the three button recovery and others say that won't work at all. I'm not sure I've ever felt this confused haha. I'll keep at it but there has to be some way to get to a build that has the updater on it since that's all I seem to be lacking to get off test-keys. I can even search the settings for the updater but when you press it nothing happens. It's like they completely removed any sort of updating this build can do.
KittyCat5eUTP said:
Well another day of searching google and XDA trying to figure out guides and I don't think I'm any closer to a solution to getting off test-keys. Some seem to suggest that you need to go back to MM, some suggest running HWOTA, some suggest the three button recovery and others say that won't work at all. I'm not sure I've ever felt this confused haha. I'll keep at it but there has to be some way to get to a build that has the updater on it since that's all I seem to be lacking to get off test-keys. I can even search the settings for the updater but when you press it nothing happens. It's like they completely removed any sort of updating this build can do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is your full build number? Please, post screenshot.
5[Strogino] said:
What is your full build number? Please, post screenshot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Model: MHA-L29
Build: NRD90M test-keys
EMUI version: 5.0.1
Android version: 7.0
I believe I was originally on some variant of MHA-L29C567 since I'm US based and its the dual sim version
I've tried using HWOTA a few times to either upgrade/update or rebrand and no matter what I choose when my phone restarts to install I just get software install failed. Usually I'll have to run through first time setup again. I've read that some people said this particular issue had to do with the update zips but mine seem to be named correctly so all I can think of doing is getting another firmware and trying again with that.
haha okay so I found out I was putting the update zips in the wrong folder. I fixed that and re ran HWOTA. update started/finished and my phone started booting and restarting a lot then went into erecovery. I'm downloading the update package right now and it's slow as hell but it's moving. And that failed leaving me to boot a few times and then get back to erecovery. I'll try getting into fastboot or recovery.
Edit: Well that seems to have resolved itself now. After having the erecovery fail I wiped/factory reset and booted the phone into oreo 8.0.0.321 with all the apps and updater. Thanks to everyone who dropped in and I'll be getting emails if someone replies that needs help too. I'm not very knowledgeable but I can give it a shot.

differents problems with my j7...

Good morning, I've been on the phone for two days now that's crazy ... and everything is clear to touch where I should not surely hehe
I comment a little to see if you can throw me a handle, either to put the phone right or neck.
I had a rom on my cell phone for maybe 4 or 5 months and the only thing that a couple of weeks or so ago every time I went in the car or with the bike when using bluetooth calls failed, so I started looking in internet and I saw that many rom failed in that, because I decided to put another rom. All good, but the same mistake followed and the one that did not vibrate added up. Well now I have been trying to try different but yesterday there is no way, you can see that I made a small brick. After talking for some comments on YouTube, he told me that it could be that he has damaged binary, (I do not know what it is), they told me to download to Android 6.0
The question is yes, I tried a firmware (the only one that I could install with odin, the rest always fails) and I have now the phone that works half, because it still does not vibrate, every time I turn on I have to enter key wifi and some more things , not counting the andorid that I have haha ​​that is outdated.
Testing with Odin to install other firmware now I get on the mobile, secure check fail bootloader. (I understand that it may be that the bootloader is blocked) but I do not know how to unblock it either, I have the developer options enabled with debugging usb and OEM.
I have also tried to install with Odin the TWRP and it comes out that if it has been installed correctly but then I try to get in and out fail and restart.
I have seen that there is a guide here for TWRP but it is for android 7.0 ... so I do not think it's good either.
After this billet ... does anyone give me a hand?
Thank you very much in advance!
PD: I add, right now I have the J710FXXU5BRC3 version but J710FXXS3AQG1 runs too. both with android 6.0
PD2: another mistake, is that when I go to flash it puts: sw rec. check fail. device 5, binary 3

(FIXED) Bootloader Locked but Device Won't Boot

I recently ran into the issue during custom rom work. I reflash the stock android ZIP, it starts booting, then I hard reset it with the power button and try to reach bootloader again. This, as it turns out, is terrible to do if you want a fast setup. The moment it starts and you reboot it, the boot image is corrupted (that's my guess) because escaping the boot screen during a clean flash bricks your phone. If you're reading this, it happened to you as well.
The answer is so flipping obvious and it took me an hour to figure it out - nowhere on the internet is there a "solution" for this problem, no matter how frequent it is. But there are lots of people who deal with this, whether still on their factory images (like the Pixel 3 EDL issue) or like me bouncing from custom to stock. So here's the answer:
ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SIDELOAD THE CURRENT SOFTWARE OTA OR A BETA OTA FROM ANOTHER FUTURE VERSION.
It doesn't recognize timestamps before your current software, so you'll need to assume you're on the latest of whatever you're on and do that. Future versions work as well, so if you wanted to reach 12 in one shot, your phone's bootloader would fully accept it as long as the file isn't corrupted. If you need a sideloading or flashing guide, here you go.
For me, I flashed the latest build of Android 11 (August patch) and rebooted during the boot up. What I did was download the OTA of the same exact file to my laptop, and entered adb sideload coral.xxx.x.zip. (The name of the file) It ran all the way through and it started up perfectly normal.
I hope this helps someone!
P.S. I don't have any pictures or tutorials, I only wrote this to help others understand what happened and how to fix it. Probably wouldn't have needed to say it if the forum for it existed.

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