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Hi everybody, I just have some questions.
I plan to change my HTC Hermes next year but I don't know which based-device will be the best...
Snapdragon or Tegra.
Tegra seems to have 8core of execution for great graphics but not a big frequency(600-800Mhz). Snapdragon got the Ghz and is supposed to reach 1.3Ghz in 2010. There is also a dual core snapdragon 2x1.5Ghz supposed to be available this year but will it be for smartphones?
These are the questions I have because a PDA is a lot of money for me and I wanna choose the right device...
Thanks
Well snapdragon is multi core SoC just like Tegra but what nvidia is so proud of is power island. It means that they can shut off unneeded module(ex. turn off all modules except of modem when in standby). Tegra uses ARM11 CPU where snapdragon is based on improved cortex A8 besides it is clocked at 1Ghz so tegra can't win this one. GPU is better on tegra and probably video performance is better too but when it comes to brute force snapdragon wins hands down.
I think that is all you need to know about tegra and snapdragon. About that 2x1,5Ghz snapdragon it is designed to be used on smartbooks. It would be an overkill for smartphone at least for now.
Thanks that's all I wanted to know
also a Mhz is not just a Mhz
first of all a qualcomm mhz could mean more or less performance boots then a OMAP mhz
not to mention it don't really matter if the cpu is super fast if the ram and storage and other IO of a device can't keep up
joplayer said:
Tegra seems to have 8core of execution for great graphics but not a big frequency(600-800Mhz). Snapdragon got the Ghz and is supposed to reach 1.3Ghz in 2010.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tegra is just like the Snapdragon a SoC. If we use the same logic that Nvidia used, then the Snapdragon is also a multi core SoC ( CPU, GPU, DSP, ... ). But its just marketing to make it look to people that they get a 8 Cpu system
Like Wishmaster89 pointed out, there is a major difference between the CPU's used on both system.
The 600Mhz Arm11 ( ArmV6 ) on the Tegra is capable off executing, about 1/3th what the Snapdragon's ArmV7 1Ghz Cpu can do.
The GPU on the other hand, is more powerful in the Tegra. There is a little list being used to compare the overall ( theoretical ) strengths off each platform's GPU
Nintendo DS: 120,000 triangles/s, 30 M pixels/s
PowerVR MBX-Lite (iPhone 3G): 1 M triangles/s, 100 M pixels/s
Samsung S3C6410 (Omnia II): 4 M triangles/s, 125.6 M pixels/s
ATI Imageon (Qualcomm MSM72xx): 4 M triangles/s, 133 M pixels/s
PowerVR SGX 530 (Palm Pre): 14 M triangles/s, ___ M pixels/s
ATI Imageon Z430 (Toshiba TG01): 22 M triangles/s, 133 M pixels/s
PowerVR SGX 535 (iPhone 3GS): 28 M triangles/s, 400 M pixels/s
Sony PSP: 33 M triangles/s, 664 M pixels/s
PowerVR SGX 540 (TI OMAP4): 35 M triangles/s, 1000 M pixels/s
Nvidia Tegra APX2500 (Zune HD): 40 M triangles/s, 600 M pixels/s
ATI Imageon _ (Qualcomm QSD8672): 80 M triangles/s, >500 M pixels/s
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, the Tegra's GPU is about twice as powerful as the Snapdragon's ATI Z430 ( looking at Triangles ). The reason why i use the term theoretically is because a lot off factors can make or break a GPU ( many more then on a CPU ). Bad drivers, bandwidth limitations, to little memory, bad mix off texture units, vertex units etc..
Problem with Nvidia is, they have always had the habit off exaggerating things ( a lesson learned more then a few times in the past ).
Another problem is, are the GPU's actually being used on the PDA/Smartphone's? A lesson i learned in the past from the x50v, with its own dedicated powerful ( in that time ) 2700g ( 800.000 Triangles in that time ). The reality is, most applications rely the most on the CPU.
At best, if you have dedicated games, written for the PDA/Smartphone market, very few will tap in to all the power that the Tegra has to offer.
Even the PSX Emulators ( who run great ( full speed 50/60fps pal/ntsc games ) ) on the Snapdragon. Forget about running a lot off psx games on a Arm11 without tweaking ( and frame skipping ). Because it relies the most on brute force cpu power ( and this is where the Snapdragon shines ).
So? What is there besides games? Video playback? Sure... The Tegra can supposedly do 1080p, while the TI OMAP & Snapdragon's only do 720p. But from what i have read, its more to the DSP that does the work. The snapdragon's DSP runs at 600Mhz, i don't find any information about the Tegra's DSP? Does it even have any? Anybody with more info how they even handle things?
When it comes down to PDA/Smartphone's... take it from me. The most important thing is first the CPU. Then the amount off memory ( and memory speed ). Then the GPU.
Lets just say i like to see a fair comparison between both systems, to see there real power ( and not some nvidia fake PR where a lot off people still fall in ).
Like i said, i don't exactly trust Nvidia's numbers when there PR posts crap like this:
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Those numbers are what you can call a pure lie. When people from the OpenPandora project ( what uses a TI Omap3630 @ 600Mhz, with a slower GPU ), is able to run quake3 at 35+ fps... Yet, Nvidia claims 5fps for the Snapdragon, thats actually more powerful then the TI Imap3630... I love those little [*] next to the text... Small text below: "* NVIDIA estimates". In other words, how much trust can somebody place in the specs from a company that that pulls stunts like that.
Also... Snapdragon is used in the following smartphones that i know off: Toshiba TG01, Asus F1 ( S200 ), HTC HD2 ( Leo ), and a few more that are on the way. Where is the Tegra? The MS Zune... Thats it...
You think that HTC, Toshiba, Asus will all have looked at the different available SOC providers ( TI, qualcomm, Samsung, Nvidia etc ). Yet ... Who do they pick for there new top off the line products...
I hope this helps...
OP, therw isn't much to add after all that expert info, but I can make it easy for you. SD = raw power, Tegra = fancy graphics. I prefer power, because of the better overall performance.
as i see it the tegra chip has 2 600mhz cores + 6 other cores to do video, audio etc.
so a 1ghz snapdragon would have to split it mhz to deal with any audio, video etc whilst the tegra chip would have separate cores dealing with this stuff leaving 2 600mhz cores free.
this would make tegra a lot faster than snapdragon.
one thing which would be interesting would be batt life
in various situations
and excluding the atom as it's not really a phone cpu
one thing of note is that every snapdragon phone, although seems fast still has the standard wm lag at times (probably more wm that the cpu).
whilst the zune hd looks super smooth and very fast.
we will have to wait for the first tegra wm phone to see if it has the wm lag as its hard to tell by comparing a mp3/4 player (which has a os which was probably made from the ground up to run on the chip) to a phone.
Ganondolf said:
as i see it the tegra chip has 2 600mhz cores + 6 other cores to do video, audio etc.
so a 1ghz snapdragon would have to split it mhz to deal with any audio, video etc whilst the tegra chip would have separate cores dealing with this stuff leaving 2 600mhz cores free.
this would make tegra a lot faster than snapdragon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're completely wrong! As I said both are multi core SoC's. Both snapdragon and tegra have separate cores for video and audio! The only difference is that tegra can shut off unneeded module where snapdragon can't. Besides they know that their CPU is slow so they have to give people something that will make them forget about CPU so they decided that talking about 8 cores on something as small as their SoC would be a good choice.
As I said before raw CPU power of snapdragon is at least 3x greater than tegra and zune HD is smoother because all the work is done on the GPU(besides the whole Zune OS 4.0 was probably designed on tegra so don't expect it to lag) where WM is only CPU driven. Besides wait for HTC Leo to see almost lag free device(show me device that never lags).
For the last time. For know tegra has slow CPU where Snapdragon has a beast for CPU. Things should change with tegra2 and snapdragon2.
Ganondolf said:
as i see it the tegra chip has 2 600mhz cores + 6 other cores to do video, audio etc.
so a 1ghz snapdragon would have to split it mhz to deal with any audio, video etc whilst the tegra chip would have separate cores dealing with this stuff leaving 2 600mhz cores free.
this would make tegra a lot faster than snapdragon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
*uch* So much misinformation... I may not be a expert, but you just claimed that the Snapdragon needs to split its mhz, to do ... video? Did you even read that snapdragon's specs. Dedicated ... GPU. GPU = Video!
Another wrong point, is that both cores are not at 600Mhz. One core is at 600Mhz, and one Core is at 400Mhz. The 600Mhz core is a ARM11 core, and the 400Mhz, is a Arm7 core ( not to be confused with the ArmV7 aka Cortex A8 ).
The basic idea is, when a phone is in standby, that the 400Mhz Arm 7 core, does the basic staying alive stuff. Where as the 600 Arm11 core, is only used for the big stuff. The basic idea is good.
But, the Snapdragon 1Ghz ArmV7 Cpu is able to downscale, and reduce its power footprint also. What solution is the better one ... We will needs to see.
To put things in perspective:
Tegra:
* ARM 11
* ARM 7
* GPU
* 2D Engine
* HD Video Encoder
* HD Video Decoder
* Audio
* Imaging
Snapdragon
* ARM v7 ( Cortex A8 )
* GPU
* DSP
* HD Video Decoder
* ...
Now... You will say. Hey, look at all those extra cores that the Tegra has. Must be a power house... No ... It does not work like that.
The Snapdragon's 600Mhz DSP has several capabilities, including dedicated Image processing, etc. The question is, how fast is the Image processor for the Tegra? If its a separate core, it has its own frequency. This alone make a big difference, because the slow that core, the longer it takes to do the job ( and the more power drain ).
The 600Mhz Tegra that we are comparing here, has only a 720p output capability. Just like the Snapdragon. As far as i can tell, the Tegra 600 is used in the Zune. Something tells me that the Tegra 650 is more for notebooks.
HD Encoding / HD decoding. By any definition, that is part off the GPU. Just like the ATI Z430 has its own dedicated HD capabilities. And any GPU these days has the ability to disable part off its to save power. So we can assume that the same capability is in the mobile variant. The Z430 is based on the GPU found in the x360. It has its own HD, audio, media, etc processing capabilites ( aka, if you like to call it in Nvidia's term... HD, Audio, Media Core's ).
So, from a technical point of view, the Snapdragon has also 8 cores. Hell, we can trump that, because the DSP is capable off more then just Image processing. So, how many extra cores can be gain from that?
To be honest, there is so much misinformation that people jump on... Its actually kinda incredible ( and frightening )... While i need to admit, when looking at the Google links, Nvidia did a good job at spreading the FUBAR information. Most sites took over the information, without questioning it one little bit...
Lag?
And Ganondolf regarding the lag that you report? To be honest, i have shown several movies to a friend with WM6.5 + Touchflow backported on older HTC devices ( devices with the same slow cpu's, like the Tegra uses ). Guess what... Beyond a bit off lag on the Image viewer, they had no lag.
Take a look at the Video's off the HTC HD2 ( Snapdragon ) ... And find the lag there please...
I have seen a few people like you before on other forum's, going around all high & mighty about the Tegra. At first i was impressed by its general specs. Until you start to look deeper, and discover that the CPU is slow as hell ( and the second one is even worse ) compared to the Snapdragon / Cortex A8 / ArmV7 design. That the "extra" cores, are just functionality provided from the GPU. And that its 1080p claim, does not come from the version now used.
In fact, Snapdragon also has 1080p capability. See the QSD8672. But you will not find that SmartPhone's just yet. Just like the Tegra 650 with its 1080p. Has anybody even seen a Tegra 650 on the market? I don't think so ( for good reason ). Looks like another Paper launch from Nvidia.
Simply put:
As of July, 2009 or Oct 2009 for that matter:
Snapdragon mobile phones = shipping.
Tegra mobile phones = vapourware. (not even any firm rumours)
Benjiro said:
Lag?
And Ganondolf regarding the lag that you report? To be honest, i have shown several movies to a friend with WM6.5 + Touchflow backported on older HTC devices ( devices with the same slow cpu's, like the Tegra uses ). Guess what... Beyond a bit off lag on the Image viewer, they had no lag.
Take a look at the Video's off the HTC HD2 ( Snapdragon ) ... And find the lag there please...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the lag i was talking about was on the toshiba tg01 which i have played with. there is no point saying look at videos of the htc hd2 as i saw vids of the tg01 which looked like it was lag free, till the hd2 comes out and i have a play i (we) wont be able to tell if its lag free or not. as i can see u are making your argument about lag on a phone that has not been released which i think is a rubbish argument, as someone could say a tegra phone could teleport you across the world (there is no proof).
Also im not on the tegra bandwagon as i like snapdragon just as much, i was going by what i had heard on the net. maybe like you said information has been made to look like the tegra chip is super powerful compared to all the other phone cpu's, what is not true but till i see a phone with a tegra chip in it how would we know?
agitprop said:
Simply put:
As of July, 2009 or Oct 2009 for that matter:
Snapdragon mobile phones = shipping.
Tegra mobile phones = vapourware. (not even any firm rumours)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
By far the most important point.
Far more important than the MHz number which may or may not even indicate greater or lesser performance or battery life than a competitor with an entirely different architecture.
There is one piece of info that I haven't been able to find. Which one of the two has better performance when it comes to battery power usage?
Anyone?
Tegra is right on the ball.
Yes, the ARM11 cpu is theoretically 1/3 the speed of the Cortex but don't forget there's an ARM7 offloading network traffic, 2D acceleration separate from the CPU and GPU, dedicated HD encoding hardware (decoding is common on both) and sound acceleration. Many of the processing bottlenecks in a mobile device are successfully offloaded in the tegra, ultimately giving the ARM11 less tasks to cope with in the first place, and no need for thread balancing which, fingers crossed, leads to more stable os performance. Another thing to note is that nVidia's official specs say ARM11 MPCore, which means that various tegra chips could have anywhere from 1 to 4 ARM11 cores (the tegra chipset used in the Microsoft Zune player was a duel-core ARM11).
The main point though I think is the power. You don't need a massive CPU in a mobile device, what you need is battery life, which although we haven't received final figures, the tegra is looking infinitely more impressive than anything else on the market. If my iPhone 3GS is anything to go off even x2 the battery life would be welcome, this thing dies in no time at all be it browsing the web, playing video or music; reviews show snapdragon phones to be even worse than this. The nVidia specs regarding battery in earlier posts are mostly accurate but based on a netbook battery. The Zune HD running the tegra has 33hours of audio, 8.5 hours of video, however uses only a 660mAh battery; this is half the size of the battery on the iPhone 3GS and HTC Touch HD2 for example.
The tegra GPU is a powerful CUDA based design and will allow for GPGPU acceleration of the only major computationally intensive task that phones are likely to do in the future which is image processing for augmented reality.
They've provided on-chip support for most modern input/output devices.
nVidia have covered all the bases, I'm seriously looking forward to tegra phones.
Yes, but as I've learned (the hard way) from my Touch Pro, all the features in the world mean nothing if they're not used. Touch Pro was supposed to have video acceleration and double the speed of my old Tytn. Where are those? Nowhere. Why? Some say "there aren't any drivers for the GPU", others say that TPs processor may be 500MHz, but its design is worse than the one in my older Tytn...
I don't care. As a customer, user and buyer, I know that my older phone was faster than my new one. If in the near future we have a Snapdragon 1GHz phone that does everything in its CPU and a Tegra phone that ballances cpu-gpu-physics-whatever in different parts of its design, history says that the Snapdragon will be the better choice. You see, WM Solitaire, Word Mobile, RSS Readers, Twitter clients and all existing software, at least for WM, is written to run on a single processor. I've yet to see a good program/game that will actually take advantage of any devices GPU - and that won't happen while the market is split, for a developer would need to create his program for a specific device (meaning less profit) or simply forego any acceleration and create something "that runs anywhere". We can thank Microsoft for going the Linux way and advocating device makers doing whatever they want, whichever way they want, without some standard way of using different hardware parts (like, say, DirectX in Windows).
very interesting informations.
Battery life is really important, that's at the moment the only advantage of the Tegra vs SN.
I am really keen to know if Manila works also fast with less CPU-Power of the Tegra-Chip as the Leo.
There must be some driver or software problem I would say - because there's no PDA out with the Tegra.
Also no announcement... otherwhise it could be also a strategy from HTC that they didn't get a problem in selling the Leo and oncoming Android-device.
So we must w8...
I think you guys should see PGR on the Zune HD.
Stunning graphics.
For me the processor speed will come 2nd place to functionality. I have recently started to use the remote desktop on my HD, but wish it had a TV out like my Touch Pro.
I was thinking about upgrading to a Leo but that has no TV also.
Discussing advanced graphics for a Snapdragon is not helpful if you are restricted to 4 inches.
Hopefully HTC will put HDMI or at least video out on all future devices. The resolution of the devices is upto it, so why not.
Why would a phone need it? Wouldn't battery life just suck?
Sent from the key to my world.
Sure, if you want a portable console lol.
The response speed would be great thought, and camera will be able to record in full HD without trouble. But, the software will need to be programmed to take advantage of the dual-core processor.
As for the battery, not necessary. The cpu will throttle back its speed a lot, and a dual-core might be able to drop really low and remain fully operational which will require less battery. Also the new dual-core cpu nanometer architecture would most probably be lower which means better battery consumption but at full load (like when playing graphically intensive games) battery probably won't last long. Still thought, new battery technology will need to be manufactured soon to keep up with this new phone technology. Next you'll see are dual-gpu phones lol
I'm waiting for the 2011 CES to see if anything dual-core will be announced before dropping $800 on a phone as I would love such a device, just for fun.
CES is just next week right?
They've already announced one phone to run it, I just think technology is getting crazy with portability. My computer still has a 1.6ghz processor, these new phones will undoubtedly surpass my poor system. Ha.
Sent from the key to my world.
One thing that the makers of the chips take into consideration, is power usage. And it's easy to see that too. I'll use desktop cpus and laptop cpus for example. Intel and AMD's 6 core designed both have a TDP of under 125W. Old single core pentiums had a TDP higher than that, and were much bigger in nm range. Laptop cpus now only use at the most, 1/4 the tdp of a desktop cpu.(Not as fast though)
Other than that, right now I can bet that there is no multi-threaded apps available, and is Android really able to take advantage of a multi-core system? Probably not on it's own.
HAPPY NEW YEAR people!!
Yeah, CES is just next week. I know they announced some phone but I would like to know when they are coming so I know if I should buy the best thing right now or not.
I wouldn't have a clue if Android can handle multicore processors but maybe the new Honeycomb version of Android will enable this? If this is the case then maybe this phones will come March/April....sigh
And yeah, TDP of this chips will be lower then current chips. I bet they are working hard to make the best use of the battery.
ceg1792 said:
Why would a phone need it? Wouldn't battery life just suck?
Sent from the key to my world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A multi core cpu does not necessarily use more power than a single core cpu; it's mostly dependent on the architecture.
NVIDIA talks about benefits of dual core:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/08/nvidia-touts-the-benefits-of-multi-core-processors-for-smartphon/
I think there is a definite need for Dual-Core Processors in phones. Gaming is making a mainstream shift from dedicated handheld gaming consoles to Smartphones. In order for developers to make more robust and graphically appealing games, they are going to need more processing power. Another point is that Dual-Core Processors will help browser rendering speeds. With HSPA+, WiMax, and LTE we are getting some serious downlink on our devices. But if you notice, a smartphone getting 3mbps down and one getting 10 mbps down renders a webpage at the same speed. Right now the processor bottlenecks webpage rendering, not our data connection. With these faster processors it helps eliminate the bottleneck to provide a gratifying web experience to the end-user.
It'll help if the application has multi-thread support. But if the app can only use 1 core/thread, then that's where dual core is useless. Also gaming isn't the main focus of Smartphones, there's probably a huge minority of people using their Smartphones as a serious gaming machine compared to people who are using their smartphone for work, talk, text, or other multimedia.
Hello at all,
i have a problem.
at the moment i have a "Surface RT" from Microsoft, but the Game-Performance is not as good as on equals Android-Tablets (like Nexus7)...
Many Games on Tegra3 are stuttering (like Jetpack Joyride etc.)
Question:
Wich CPU/GPU Combination ist better
(Tegra3 CPU with Geforce ULP GPU like Surface RT, Asus VivoTab)
or (Qualcomm S4 Plus CPU with Adreno 225 GPU like Samsung Ativ Rt, Dell XPS 10)
http://www.qualcomm.com/snapdragon/tablets-pcs
Very Thanks for your informations...
Im not sure about which one is the better setup. However to fix your stuttering for now, try useing another input device rather than touch for your games. I use my touch cover for jet pack and my 360 controller for the other games I have.
Not sure why but a lot of games seem to stutter when you touch the screen , now this can be fixed as shown by hydro thunder developers in there latest patch.
THEBIG360 said:
Im not sure about which one is the better setup. However to fix your stuttering for now, try useing another input device rather than touch for your games. I use my touch cover for jet pack and my 360 controller for the other games I have.
Not sure why but a lot of games seem to stutter when you touch the screen , now this can be fixed as shown by hydro thunder developers in there latest patch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
very thanks for your information, but i have only the surface 32gb without touchcover...
questions:
1. how do you connect your wireless xbox360 controller with surface rt?
2. do you know any games with no stuttering, without "hydro thunder"?
3. do you know any other games who push the power from tegra3 like "hydro thunder"?
At the moment i play the free game "Baller", very great, but also stuttering...
very thanks...
hi mate you will need the wireless pc receiver to sync the xbox controller wireless, however I just use a wired one. Games with controller are far better mate when supported, they even have rumble feed back. Both angry birds have been fixed not to lag on touch.
If you really enjoy jet pack mate why noT just plug in a usb keyboard or mouse works the same.
Soulcraft is a great game not tegra optimized though.
I can confirm that the game you are playing called baller has no stutter with touch cover but stutters on touch input.
it's all going to come down to optimization for the chipset, the tegra3 and adreno 225 are similar, but the tegra3 has the edge, but in real world, without something being optimized for the specific chipset, you're not going to see a huge difference.
now the s4 pro, with the new adreno is beast. i really wish the surface came with that vs tegra
adiliyo said:
it's all going to come down to optimization for the chipset, the tegra3 and adreno 225 are similar, but the tegra3 has the edge, but in real world, without something being optimized for the specific chipset, you're not going to see a huge difference.
now the s4 pro, with the new adreno is beast. i really wish the surface came with that vs tegra
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Optimization in most of cases is just a marketing trick.
Tegra 3 is really weak, even in comparison with MSM8960. Also Adreno 320 is up to 3 times faster than 225, so make conculisons.
If you want a nice cheap game to showcase the tegra chip in the surface search sprinkle in the marketplace. Great game with some great physics and good graphics.
is sprinkle on win8 now?
Who has been excited by the Tegra 4 rumours?, last night's Nvidia CES announcement was good, but what we really want are cold-hard BENCHMARKS.
I found an interesting mention of Tegra T114 SoC on a Linux Kernel site, which I've never heard of. I got really interested when it stated that the SoC is based on ARM A15 MP, it must be Tegra 4. I checked the background of the person who posted the kernel patch, he is a senior Nvidia Kernel engineer based in Finland.
https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/20/99
"This patchset adds initial support for the NVIDIA's new Tegra 114
SoC (T114) based on the ARM Cortex-A15 MP. It has the minimal support
to allow the kernel to boot up into shell console. This can be used as
a basis for adding other device drivers for this SoC. Currently there
are 2 evaluation boards available, "Dalmore" and "Pluto"."
On the off chance I decided to search www.glbenchmark.com for the 2 board names, Dalmore (a tasty whisky!) and Pluto (Planet, Greek God and cartoon dog!) Pluto returned nothing, but Dalmore returned a device called 'Dalmore Dalmore' that was posted on 3rd January 2013. However the OP had already deleted them, but thanks to Google Cache I found the results
RESULTS
GL_VENDOR NVIDIA Corporation
GL_VERSION OpenGL ES 2.0 17.01235
GL_RENDERER NVIDIA Tegra
From System spec, It runs Android 4.2.1, a Min frequency of 51 MHz and Max of 1836 Mhz
Nvidia DALMORE
GLBenchmark 2.5 Egypt HD C24Z16 - Offscreen (1080p) : 32.6 fps
iPad 4
GLBenchmark 2.5 Egypt HD C24Z16 - Offscreen (1080p): 49.6 fps
CONCLUSION
Anandtech has posted that Tegra 4 doesn't use unified shaders, so it's not based on Kepler. I reckon that if Nvidia had a brand new GPU they would have shouted about it at CES, the results I've found indicate that Tegra 4 is between 1 to 3 times faster than Tegra 3.
BUT, this is not 100% guaranteed to be a Tegra 4 system, but the evidence is strong that it is a T4 development board. If this is correct, we have to figure that it is running beta drivers, Nexus 10 is ~ 10% faster than the Arndale dev board with the same Exynos 5250 SoC. Even if Tegra 4 gets better drivers, it seems like the SGX 544 MP4 in the A6X is still the faster GPU, with Tegra 4 and Mali T604 being an almost equal 2nd. Nvidia has said that T4 is faster than A6X, but the devil is in the detail, in CPU benchmarks I can see that being true, but not for graphics.
UPDATE - Just to add to the feeling that that this legit, the GLBenchmark - System section lists the "android.os.Build.USER" as buildbrain. Buildbrain according to a Nvidia job posting is "Buildbrain is a mission-critical, multi-tier distributed computing system that performs mobile builds and automated tests each day, enabling NVIDIA's high performance development teams across the globe to develop and deliver NVIDIA's mobile product line"
http://jobsearch.naukri.com/job-lis...INEER-Nvidia-Corporation--2-to-4-130812500024
I posted the webcache links to GLBenchmark pages below, if they disappear from cache, I've saved a copy of the webpages, which I can upload, Enjoy
GL BENCHMARK - High Level
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...p?D=Dalmore+Dalmore+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
GL BENCHMARK - Low Level
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e&testgroup=lowlevel&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
GL BENCHMARK - GL CONFIG
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...Dalmore&testgroup=gl&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
GL BENCHMARK - EGL CONFIG
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...almore&testgroup=egl&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
GL BENCHMARK - SYSTEM
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ore&testgroup=system&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
OFFSCREEN RESULTS
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...enchmark.com+dalmore&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6550/...00-5th-core-is-a15-28nm-hpm-ue-category-3-lte
Is there any Gpu that could outperform iPad4 before iPad5 comes out? adreno 320, t Mali 604 now tegra 4 aren't near it. Qualcomm won't release anything till q4 I guess, and tegra 4 has released too only thing that is left is I guess is t Mali 658 coming with exynos 5450 (doubtfully when it would release, not sure it will be better )
Looks like apple will hold the crown in future too .
i9100g user said:
Is there any Gpu that could outperform iPad4 before iPad5 comes out? adreno 320, t Mali 604 now tegra 4 aren't near it. Qualcomm won't release anything till q4 I guess, and tegra 4 has released too only thing that is left is I guess is t Mali 658 coming with exynos 5450 (doubtfully when it would release, not sure it will be better )
Looks like apple will hold the crown in future too .
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Click to collapse
There was a great article on Anandtech that tested the power consumption of the Nexus 10's Exynos 5250 SoC, it showed that both the CPU and GPU had a TDP of 4W, making a theoretical SoC TDP of 8W. However when the GPU was being stressed by running a game, they ran a CPU benchmark in the background, the SoC quickly went up to 8W, but the CPU was quickly throttled from 1.7 GHz to just 800 Mhz as the system tried to keep everything at 4W or below, this explained why the Nexus 10 didn't benchmark as well as we wished.
Back to the 5450 which should beat the A6X, trouble is it has double the CPU & GPU cores of the 5250 and is clocked higher, even on a more advanced 28nm process, which will lower power consumption I feel that system will often be throttled because of power and maybe heat concerns, so it looks amazing on paper but may disappoint in reality, and a 5450 in smartphone is going to suffer even more.
So why does Apple have an advantage?, well basically money, for a start mapple fans will pay more for their devices, so they afford to design a big SoC and big batteries that may not be profitable to other companies. Tegra 4 is listed as a 80mm2 chip, iPhone 5 is 96mm2 and A6X is 123mm2, Apple can pack more transistors and reap the GPU performance lead, also they chosen graphics supplier Imagination Technologies have excellent products, Power VR Rogue will only increase Apple's GPU lead. They now have their own chip design team, the benefit for them has been their Swift core is almost as powerful as ARM A15, but seems less power hungry, anyway Apple seems to be happy running slower CPUs compared to Android. Until an Android or WP8 or somebody can achieve Apple's margins they will be able to 'buy' their way to GPU domination, as an Android fan it makes me sad:crying:
32fps is no go...lets hope it's not final
hamdir said:
32fps is no go...lets hope it's not final
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It needs to, but it will be OK for a new Nexus 7
still faster enough for me, I dont game alot on my nexus 7.
I know I'm taking about phones here ... But the iPhone 5 GPU and adreno 320 are very closely matched
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
italia0101 said:
I know I'm taking about phones here ... But the iPhone 5 GPU and adreno 320 are very closely matched
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
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From what I remember the iPhone 5 and the new iPad wiped the floor with Nexus 4 and 10. The ST-Ericsson Nova A9600 is likely to have a PowerVR Rogue GPU. Just can't wait!!
adityak28 said:
From what I remember the iPhone 5 and the new iPad wiped the floor with Nexus 4 and 10. The ST-Ericsson Nova A9600 is likely to have a PowerVR Rogue GPU. Just can't wait!!
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That isn't true , check glbenchmark , in the off screen test the iPhone scored 91 , the nexus 4 scored 88 ... That ksnt wiping my floors
Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD
Its interesting how even though nvidia chips arent the best we still get the best game graphics because of superior optimization through tegra zone. Not even the a6x is as fully optimized.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda premium
ian1 said:
Its interesting how even though nvidia chips arent the best we still get the best game graphics because of superior optimization through tegra zone. Not even the a6x is as fully optimized.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda premium
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What sort of 'optimisation' do you mean? un optimised games lag that's a big letdown and tegra effects can also be used on other phones too with chain fire 3d I use it and tegra games work without lag with effects and I don't have a tegra device
With a tegra device I am restricted to optimised games mostly
The graphic performance of NVIDIA SoCs is always disappointed, sadly for the VGA dominanting provider on the world.
The first Tegra2, the GPU is a little bit better than SGX540 of GalaxyS a little bit in benchmark, but lacking NEON support.
The second one Tegra 3, the GPU is nearly the same as the old Mali400Mp4 in GALAXY S2/Original Note.
And now it's better but still nothing special and outperformed soon (Adreno 330 and next-gen Mali)
Strongest PowerVR GPUs are always the best, but sadly they are exclusive for Apple only (SGX543 and maybe SGX 554 also, only Sony ,who has the cross-licencing with Apple, has it in PS Vita and in PS Vita only)
tegra optimization porting no longer works using chainfire, this is now a myth
did u manage to try shadowgun thd, zombie driver or horn? the answer is no, games that use t3 sdk for physx and other cpu graphics works can not be forced to work on other devices, equally chainfire is now outdated and no longer updated
now about power vr they are only better in real multicore configuration which is only used by apple and Sony's vita, eating large die area, ie actual multicore each with its own subcores/shaders, if tegra was used in real multi core it would destroy all
finally this is really funny all this doom n gloom because of an early discarded development board benchmark, I dont mean to take away from turbo's thunder and his find but truly its ridiculous the amount of negativity its is collecting before any type of final device benchs
adrena 220 doubled in performance after the ICS update on sensation
t3 doubled the speed of t2 gpu with only 50% the number of shaders so how on earth do you believe only 2x the t3 scores with 600% more shaders!!
do you have any idea how miserable the ps3 performed in its early days? even new desktop GeForces perform much less than expected until the drivers are updated
enough with the FUD! seems this board is full of it nowadays and so little reasoning...
For goodness sake, this isn't final hardware, anything could change. Hung2900 knows nothing, what he stated isn't true. Samsung has licensed PowerVR, it isn't just stuck to Apple, just that Samsung prefers using ARMs GPU solution. Another thing I dislike is how everyone is comparing a GPU in the iPad 4 (SGX554MP4) that will NEVER arrive in a phone compared a Tegra 4 which will arrive in a phone. If you check OP link the benchmark was posted on the 3rd of January with different results (18fps then 33fps), so there is a chance it'll rival the iPad 4. I love Tegra as Nvidia is pushing developers to make more better games for Android compared to the 'geeks' *cough* who prefers benchmark results, whats the point of having a powerful GPU if the OEM isn't pushing developers to create enhance effect games for there chip.
Hamdir is correct about the GPUs, if Tegra 3 was around 50-80% faster than Tegra 2 with just 4 more cores, I can't really imagine it only being 2x faster than Tegra 3. Plus its a 28nm (at around 80mm2 just a bit bigger than Tegra 3, smaller than A6 90mm2) along with the dual memory than single on Tegra 2/3.
Turbotab said:
There was a great article on Anandtech that tested the power consumption of the Nexus 10's Exynos 5250 SoC, it showed that both the CPU and GPU had a TDP of 4W, making a theoretical SoC TDP of 8W. However when the GPU was being stressed by running a game, they ran a CPU benchmark in the background, the SoC quickly went up to 8W, but the CPU was quickly throttled from 1.7 GHz to just 800 Mhz as the system tried to keep everything at 4W or below, this explained why the Nexus 10 didn't benchmark as well as we wished.
Back to the 5450 which should beat the A6X, trouble is it has double the CPU & GPU cores of the 5250 and is clocked higher, even on a more advanced 28nm process, which will lower power consumption I feel that system will often be throttled because of power and maybe heat concerns, so it looks amazing on paper but may disappoint in reality, and a 5450 in smartphone is going to suffer even more.
So why does Apple have an advantage?, well basically money, for a start iSheep will pay more for their devices, so they afford to design a big SoC and big batteries that may not be profitable to other companies. Tegra 4 is listed as a 80mm2 chip, iPhone 5 is 96mm2 and A6X is 123mm2, Apple can pack more transistors and reap the GPU performance lead, also they chosen graphics supplier Imagination Technologies have excellent products, Power VR Rogue will only increase Apple's GPU lead. They now have their own chip design team, the benefit for them has been their Swift core is almost as powerful as ARM A15, but seems less power hungry, anyway Apple seems to be happy running slower CPUs compared to Android. Until an Android or WP8 or somebody can achieve Apple's margins they will be able to 'buy' their way to GPU domination, as an Android fan it makes me sad:crying:
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Click to collapse
Well said mate!
I can understand what you feel, nowdays android players like samsung,nvidia are focusing more on CPU than GPU.
If they won't stop soon and continued to use this strategy they will fail.
GPU will become bottleneck and you will not be able use the cpu at its full potential. (Atleast when gaming)
i have Galaxy S2 exynos 4 1.2Ghz and 400mhz oc mali gpu
In my analysis most modern games like MC4,NFS:MW aren't running at 60FPS at all thats because GPU always have 100% workload and CPU is relaxing there by outputing 50-70% of total CPU workload
I know some games aren't optimize for all android devices as opposed to apple devices but still even high-end android devices has slower gpu (than ipad 4 atleast )
AFAIK, Galaxy SIV is likely to pack T-604 with some tweaks instead of mighty T-658 which is still slower than iPAddle 4
Turbotab said:
There was a great article on Anandtech that tested the power consumption of the Nexus 10's Exynos 5250 SoC, it showed that both the CPU and GPU had a TDP of 4W, making a theoretical SoC TDP of 8W. However when the GPU was being stressed by running a game, they ran a CPU benchmark in the background, the SoC quickly went up to 8W, but the CPU was quickly throttled from 1.7 GHz to just 800 Mhz as the system tried to keep everything at 4W or below, this explained why the Nexus 10 didn't benchmark as well as we wished.
Back to the 5450 which should beat the A6X, trouble is it has double the CPU & GPU cores of the 5250 and is clocked higher, even on a more advanced 28nm process, which will lower power consumption I feel that system will often be throttled because of power and maybe heat concerns, so it looks amazing on paper but may disappoint in reality, and a 5450 in smartphone is going to suffer even more.
So why does Apple have an advantage?, well basically money, for a start iSheep will pay more for their devices, so they afford to design a big SoC and big batteries that may not be profitable to other companies. Tegra 4 is listed as a 80mm2 chip, iPhone 5 is 96mm2 and A6X is 123mm2, Apple can pack more transistors and reap the GPU performance lead, also they chosen graphics supplier Imagination Technologies have excellent products, Power VR Rogue will only increase Apple's GPU lead. They now have their own chip design team, the benefit for them has been their Swift core is almost as powerful as ARM A15, but seems less power hungry, anyway Apple seems to be happy running slower CPUs compared to Android. Until an Android or WP8 or somebody can achieve Apple's margins they will be able to 'buy' their way to GPU domination, as an Android fan it makes me sad:crying:
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Click to collapse
Typical "isheep" reference, unnecessary.
Why does apple have the advantage? Maybe because there semiconductor team is talented and can tie the A6X+PowerVR GPU efficiently. NIVIDA should have focused more on GPU in my opinion as the CPU was already good enough. With these tablets pushing excess of 250+ppi the graphics processor will play a huge role. They put 72 cores in there processor. Excellent. Will the chip ever be optimized to full potential? No. So again they demonstrated a product that sounds good on paper but real world performance might be a different story.
MrPhilo said:
For goodness sake, this isn't final hardware, anything could change. Hung2900 knows nothing, what he stated isn't true. Samsung has licensed PowerVR, it isn't just stuck to Apple, just that Samsung prefers using ARMs GPU solution. Another thing I dislike is how everyone is comparing a GPU in the iPad 4 (SGX554MP4) that will NEVER arrive in a phone compared a Tegra 4 which will arrive in a phone. If you check OP link the benchmark was posted on the 3rd of January with different results (18fps then 33fps), so there is a chance it'll rival the iPad 4. I love Tegra as Nvidia is pushing developers to make more better games for Android compared to the 'geeks' *cough* who prefers benchmark results, whats the point of having a powerful GPU if the OEM isn't pushing developers to create enhance effect games for there chip.
Hamdir is correct about the GPUs, if Tegra 3 was around 50-80% faster than Tegra 2 with just 4 more cores, I can't really imagine it only being 2x faster than Tegra 3. Plus its a 28nm (at around 80mm2 just a bit bigger than Tegra 3, smaller than A6 90mm2) along with the dual memory than single on Tegra 2/3.
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Firstly please keep it civil, don't go around saying that people know nothing, people's posts always speak volumes. Also calling people geeks, on XDA is that even an insult, next you're be asking what I deadlift:laugh:
My OP was done in the spirit of technical curiosity, and to counter the typical unrealistic expectations of a new product on mainstream sites, e.g. Nvidia will use Kepler tech (which was false), omg Kepler is like GTX 680, Tegra 4 will own the world, people forget that we are still talking about device that can only use a few watts, and must be passively cooled and not a 200+ watt, dual-fan GPU, even though they both now have to power similar resolutions, which is mental.
I both agree and disagree with your view on Nvidia's developer relationship, THD games do look nice, I compared Infinity Blade 2 on iOS vs Dead Trigger 2 on youtube, and Dead Trigger 2 just looked richer, more particle & physics effects, although IF Blade looked sharper at iPad 4 native resolution, one of the few titles to use the A6x's GPU fully.The downside to this relationship is the further fragmentation of the Android ecosystem, as Chainfire's app showed most of the extra effects can run on non Tegra devices.
Now, a 6 times increase in shader, does not automatically mean that games / benchmarks will scale in linear fashion, as other factors such as TMU /ROP throughput can bottleneck performance. Nvidia's Technical Marketing Manager, when interviewed at CES, said that the overall improvement in games / benchmarks will be around 3 to 4 times T3. Ultimately I hope to see Tegra 4 in a new Nexus 7, and if these benchmarks are proved accurate, it wouldn't stop me buying. Overall including the CPU, it would be a massive upgrade over the current N7, all in the space of a year.
At 50 seconds onwards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC7A5AmTPi0
iOSecure said:
Typical "isheep" reference, unnecessary.
Why does apple have the advantage? Maybe because there semiconductor team is talented and can tie the A6X+PowerVR GPU efficiently. NIVIDA should have focused more on GPU in my opinion as the CPU was already good enough. With these tablets pushing excess of 250+ppi the graphics processor will play a huge role. They put 72 cores in there processor. Excellent. Will the chip ever be optimized to full potential? No. So again they demonstrated a product that sounds good on paper but real world performance might be a different story.
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Click to collapse
Sorry Steve, this is an Android forum, or where you too busy buffing the scratches out of your iPhone 5 to notice? I have full respect for the talents of Apple's engineers & marketing department, many of its users less so.
hamdir said:
tegra optimization porting no longer works using chainfire, this is now a myth
did u manage to try shadowgun thd, zombie driver or horn? the answer is no, games that use t3 sdk for physx and other cpu graphics works can not be forced to work on other devices, equally chainfire is now outdated and no longer updated
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Looks like they haven't updated chain fire 3d for a while as a result only t3 games don't work but others do work rip tide gp, dead trigger etc . It's not a myth but it is outdated and only works with ics and tegra 2 compatible games . I think I (might be) unfortunate too but some gameloft games lagged on tegra device that i had, though root solved it too an extent
I am not saying something is superior to something just that my personal experience I might be wrong I may not be
Tbh I think benchmarks don't matter much unless you see some difference in real world usage and I had that problem with tegra in my experience
But we will have to see if the final version is able to push it above Mali t 604 and more importantly sgx544
Turbotab said:
Sorry Steve, this is an Android forum, or where you too busy buffing the scratches out of your iPhone 5 to notice? I have full respect for the talents of Apple's engineers & marketing department, many of its users less so.
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No I actually own a nexus 4 and ipad mini so I'm pretty neutral in googles/apples ecosystems and not wiping any scratches off my devices.
im looking for a new android TV device to replace my wii i use now for streaming media (netflix, hulu, etc).. i want something that can run any android app, easily install third party applications, has enough performance to emulate N64 and PS1 games with the ability to stream PC and high level emulators from my gaming PC.. my router has gigabit LAN and N750 dual band
so my budget is about $75, within this budget i have been able to find the google nexus player using a quad core 64 bit 1.8ghz atom, 1 gig ram, and powervr 6 gpu, no ethernet, and 802.11AC wifi.. ive had issues with some android apps not working all that well on x86 architecture so im not sure if the atom will cause issues with some third party apps, and id like a device thats rooted/unlocked without breaking the warranty (ive had bad luck with low quality ASUS products, multiple ASUS devices failing)
another device i found is various "M8" devices which all seem to have the same specs, a cortex A9 quad core 2ghz processor, 8-core mali 450 GPU, 2 gigs of RAM, though seemingly only ABGN wifi and 10/100 ethernet.. so the downsides on this is the graphics arent as good, network isnt as good, but it does have more RAM and these devices seem to already support third party apps and being rooted
which of these options would be best for what i need it to do?.. and are there any other options i should consider?
You can try to find some solutions on Amazon or eBay, there are always so many good products on it. Besides, I know one brand named Loctek, you can search for that and maybe helpful.
rachel lee said:
You can try to find some solutions on Amazon or eBay, there are always so many good products on it. Besides, I know one brand named Loctek, you can search for that and maybe helpful.
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Click to collapse
well, if i want some emulator capabilities and game streaming, im probably going to want something capable of opengl ES 3, mali 450 no matter how many cores is only ES 2.0
browsing around on amazon a bit to see what i could find.. i found a few devices, all with 1.8ghz cortex A17 processors, 2 gigs of RAM, and mali T768 GPUs.. and they seem to also have gigabit LAN (since my box will be less than 3 feet from, or maybe even underneath my router, this is more important than fast wifi
so... nexus player with a 1.8ghz quad core 64 bit atom processor, 1 gig of RAM, powerVR 6 GPU, no ethernet
or... off-brand player with 1.7ghz quad core 32 bit cortex A17 CPU, 2 gigs of RAM, and mali T764 GPU and gigabit ethernet
amazon-com/Vensmile-TM-Q8-Hardware-Decoding/dp/B00P69R4JA/ref=sr_1_76?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1434123965&sr=1-76&keywords=android+tv&refinements=p_36%3A7000-10000
amazon-com/Q8-Cortex-a17-Android-Antenna-Bluetooth/dp/B00UCRNUZ8/ref=sr_1_82?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1434123965&sr=1-82&keywords=android+tv&refinements=p_36%3A7000-10000
amazon-com/DIAOTEC-Cortex-A17-Mali-T764-Bluetooth-dual-band/dp/B00NQ9VOFW/ref=sr_1_63?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1434123199&sr=1-63&keywords=android+tv&refinements=p_36%3A7000-10000
anyone have an opinion on these options?
i guess no one has any experience with these products?
Im in the same boat.. But in Canada.
Check fasttech.com also
See the pcduino or raspberry pi 2 also..
Im holding out for a minix x8h