Closest MM/N ROM to AOSP for G930F? - Samsung Galaxy S7 Questions and Answers

Until recently I've used a Sony, but a couple of bad experiences (+ 2 bad replacements) and need for wireless charging due to work + other HW features this time round, means I've switched to a Samsung S7 (G930F). Yeah, I know, Exynos development, but I needed the hardware spec and it came up cheap. Anyhow, it's rooted, unlocked and running TWRP, and I'm trying out a couple of roms..
I usually run without GApps (no flames or "Why use android if not using GApps", please!), and I'm happy to run 6.x + Xposed, or 7.x without Xposed. But as I've only ever used AOSP variants/CM, I'm a bit unsure about choosing a rom based on modding the official Samsung firmware, so I thought I'd ask here to find about the differences "under the hood".
The most stable roms for the G930F seem to be stripped-down derivatives of Samsung official releases - but how close can I get to a stable AOSP experience? I'm not only thinking about the user interface, also about "under the hood" - some custom roms might just strip out Touchwiz and apps, others might strip out a lot more and try to clean up or get closer to a AOSP/CM style "clean" rom underneath. That's more what I'm after, a good quality stable clean rom that's trying to get close to AOSP/CM as much as Samsung makes possible and without GApps already built-in.
But at that point I'm basically lacking knowledge, so... How close do roms based on Samsung's firmware actually get to AOSP? What sort of things get left in that detract from "pure" android? Which roms are closer to AOSP under the hood, or strip out "more" of the Samsung/Gapps code?

Kryx Rom or Extreme Debloated + Nexus Conversion Pack or Google pixel rom
Use LineageOS if you are willing to deal with a few minor bugs.

I'm trying out Lineage right now - it's mostly fine, the main practical issue is an over-aggressive noise gate on phone calls, it cuts off words and makes speech hard to understand at the other end. Other issues I'm seeing are lack of power menu volume panel and crash bugs in the internal web view used by some apps. Not bad for pre-release.
One main question/concern with using a trimmed-down Samsung rom is, I haven't got any idea what Samsung do to AOSP Android/kernel, nor how much of it is undone. Gods know how often manufacturer mods have led to problems and weaknesses in an otherwise good product, and so it's not a theoretical question, manufacturer versions often seem to leave the entire firmware in quite an unknown state. I know there can't be any absolute answers, but any light-shedding would be really useful.

noob924 said:
Kryx Rom or Extreme Debloated + Nexus Conversion Pack or Google pixel rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Kryx 1.2 is coming up with zip sig failure when I try to flash it. No sign that it shouldn't be signed, or is expected to come up with this error though, otherwise I'd try it anyway.

Related

[GUIDE] Unsure about your ROM choice

This is going to be a long post, but please bare with me. The reason for this post is too hopefully reduce the number of "Help me choose a rom" threads, as they seem to get posted quite frequently, and ask basically the same questions. So in this thread ill be going through some of the basics, as well as some highlights of each type of rom
Introduction
I wrote this thread in an effort to make things easier for "noobies" or "new users" whichever you'd like to call them, so that they can have a better understanding of what the various types of Rom's are out for the Galaxy SIII or may be out in the future. Here's a very common question, what is a rom? A rom on our android phones is like the operating system on your computer, it controls the user interface, what you see and what you can do. Thankfully we have developers who have taken the stock rom's and changed them up and made them 'better' so that we the users can unlock the full potential of our phones. In this thread i will do my best to give you a brief outline of what you can expect with the different types of roms, and what bugs you may encounter. What i will not do is make any claims as to what the 'best' rom is, or tell you what you should be running. I am simply going to give you the information that you need to better help understand what can be included with each rom type
***Disclaimer: Anything you do after reading this thread is on you, what you decide to flash or not to flash is on you. I am not to be held responsible for anything that you do to your phone. This is simply information to help guide you and teach you a few things about roms.***
What you won't find in this guide, but should familiarize yourself with:
These guides don't have to be read, but i highly recommend you at least glance over them to familiarize yourself with a few things, before flashing your first rom. They all contain important information that you should know
*Any instructions on rooting your phone or how to install a rom, those can be found here
*Any rom download list, that can be found here
*A way to get Google wallet to successfully work on your Verizon SIII, that can be found here
Important ------>*A guide to backup your IMEI, that is here<------ Important
Important ------>*An IMEI repair guide/tool, that can be found here<------ Important
*A way to unbrick your softbricked phone, that's can be found here
CHAPTER 1: Touchwiz Roms
***Based on samsung's touchwiz.
Section 1: Stock Rooted Roms
These roms are exactly how its said stock and rooted they are the OTA's that verizon puts out, the only difference is that they've been pre rooted for the rooted users who want to be rooted but just want that basic stock experience. They may come in two flavors: Odex and Deodex, the difference between the two is the way that applications (apk files) are packaged. Odex is the stock way, and Deodex is repackaged, if you're looking to make minor modifications or do a little themeing then you want Deodex because 99% of theme's are built for Deodexed ROMS. There isn't much to be said for stock rooted roms, you're going to get that stock experience that comes with the phone but with root capabilities (titanium backup, wifi tether, overclocking, etc)
-Is this for me? If you want that exact samsung touchwiz stock feel with nothing added in then yes this is for you.
Section 1A: Debloated Stock Rooted Roms
These roms are going to be "debloated" meaning most if not all the fat is taken out of them. In the SIII's case you're going to lose most of the samsung apps and verizon apps. With this you may also lose some of those touchwiz features (smart alert, direct call, etc) or verizon features (NFL mobile, my verizon, etc). The benefit? You're still going to be mostly stock, and you may notice a speed increase due to there being less fat in the rom. There are various levels of debloating as well, some are more extreme and have had everything removed except for the essentials, and some will only remove a few things. Its best to read the original post with each rom to have an idea of what has been removed.
-Is this for me? If you want the barebones experience without using AOSP the yes this is for you.
Section 2: Modified "Stock" Roms
These roms, are going to be the touchwiz rom's made for verizon phones, the base (what the rom is built on) will either come from OTA updates or from leaks. These roms are modified in someway, some more than others. The modifications can include a wide variety of things from the basic speed tweaks, enhancements, and themes to including custom kernels, removing the wifi notifications, extra toggles in the notification bar, 4 in 1 reboot menu, and many other things. They are in a sense stock, but at the same time not. Think of it as a developer taking something 'good' and making it 'great' they've added in the stuff that should have already been there from the start. They will generally be deodexed already, may or may not have been debloated to a point, and generally will have a lot of 'under the hood' enhancements.
-Is this for me? For most people this is for you. You'll have a lot of the touchwiz features that you've come to love such as the camera, smart alert, direct call, and other features, while also getting a much faster and generally better experience. You'll be able to flash themes easily (make sure to double check that the theme is compatible with your rom) root app's will work and you'll be happy.
Section 3: Leaked Roms
These roms, are built off of leaked builds/bases. They may be ICS, Jellybean, etc. These rom's generally may have bugs to begin with depending on the leak itself. Some leaks are a little more stable than others, generally the only time leaked builds have major bugs is when its a leak of the next android version (a leaked JB Touchwiz build for verizon) otherwise they'll generally be almost bug free. There isn't much to say about any leaks of the current version (SIII shipped with ICS Touchwiz) because those will generally just get merged into the custom builds and such. Leaks for future versions generally have bugs, some big, some small, but usually get worked out quickly depending on the bug.
Is this for me? If you're looking to get that future android feel before its official then yes its for you. But you have to be willing to accept that everything may or may not work, and may or may not get fixed before an official release happens. You'll have the latest and greatest though and be able to brag to you're friends about having it before they do.
Section 4: Ported Roms
These roms are ports, meaning they could come from a different carrier (Example: AT&T JB touchwiz on verizon), different manufacturer (Example: Sense 4.0 on SIII), etc. These rom's will almost certainly have bugs to begin with. They are in a way like leaked roms because they aren't "official" for the SIII, but also vastly different because they may not even be mean't for the SIII. These rom's generally require a lot of work to even get booted up because its based off something that's not even mean't for the verizon SIII and a lot of work goes into them. Bugs could range from little things like screen flickering to GPS being completely borked, to your phone not even booting up. After they've had some work hammered into them and testing done, they can be really functional as a daily driver.
Is this for me? If you're looking to have something different or the latest and greatest then yes its for you. But like i said with leaked rom's you have to be willing to accept that you may encounter a vast variety of bugs that may or may not get fixed quickly or at all depending on the bug.
CHAPTER 2: AOSP (Android Open Source Project) Roms
What you won't find in AOSP: Any touchwiz features, yes this includes the camera as well. This is because touchwiz features and apps require the touchwiz framework which is not in AOSP and probably never will be. You also will find that verizon apps tend to be hit or miss as well, most of the time they won't work either, yes this includes NFL mobile and My Verizon.
Known issues when going from ICS touchwiz to AOSP JB:
*GPS may not work correctly, the fix? Before flashing to AOSP JB make sure you have a full gps lock (i personally download gps status from the market and wait until almost all satellites are locked) then from in the app boot into recovery and do your usual wiping/flashing.
*NFC may not work correctly, the fix? Ensure NFC is turned on before flashing to AOSP JB (i personally don't use NFC so i can't comment on whether that works or not, but i've heard it does)
***Based on pure android, you won't have any kind of carrier/manufacturer features added in. If you've ever had a Nexus device then you'll know what this is.
***Themeing is also super simple, with AOSP you get the Theme chooser, which makes changing themes as simple as a few clicks, just download a theme chooser theme off the market and then go into theme chooser and apply it. It really is that simple, if you want to change back just apply the "system" theme, and bam you're back to normal
Section 1: CyanogenMod (CM)
The one's who started it out, they've been around for what feels like forever. This rom will be built straight from the latest source, and it'll be fast from the get go. You'll immediately notice that you've got a lot more RAM free off the bat and this is because there is absolutely no bloat in it at all. You'll have the pure google android experience, it'll be a love or hate thing. For CyanogenMod they generally have nightly builds for those who love to flash, and it'll have added in whatever they added/fixed for that day. These builds may be stable or may not be stable, today's nightly might suck while yesterday's was great. For these if you know what features the latest android version has most likely they'll be in CM, so if you stay up to date then you'll be good to go. Some features are added in though such as notification widgets/toggles, speed tweaks, various other shortcuts. They will generally keep it mostly stock android but also give you some treats that make it better. Bugs are hit or miss, especially for the SIII because pure AOSP android was not built for it originally so some things may be a little iffy (GPS, data, nfc, mms, call volume, etc) it doesn't mean they are all broken, but it's possible they are hit or miss at times, and you're miles may vary. For one person GPS might be fine and the other it could be broken.
Is this for me? If you're looking for that pure android experience without any manufacturer crap in it then yes its for you. Just know that you may encounter bugs that don't get worked out right away, some of them take time.
Section 1A: Unofficial CM Builds
These builds are based off of CM but they are unofficial because a developer wants to make nightly changes, and add in there own modifications, themes, fixes, enhancements, etc. They come with the same risk as official CM builds, but any bugs found in them should not be reported to the official CM bug tracker because then these are unofficial builds. There isn't anything wrong with them being unofficial, its just a developer wanting to add there own twist to the CM builds.
Is this for me? If you're looking for that pure android experience without any manufacturer crap in it then yes its for you. Just know that you may encounter bugs that don't get worked out right away, some of them take time. Please read the OP's thread to understand what changes they have added in.
Section 2: Android Open Kang Project (AOKP)
Almost just like CM but with a little more added in. Its based off the android source code and again won't have any manufacturer crap added in. With AOKP you'll get added in modifications that may not be found in CM, as well as other kinds of toggles, status bar mods, notification mods, etc. I can't say everything because its still based of android source and comes with the same risk as CM which is certain bugs or things not working (GPS, data, nfc, mms, call volume, etc) They know there stuff though and have "Builds" released from anywhere from day to day or weeks apart these builds are more major releases with various fixes, modifications, etc.
Is this for me? If you're looking for that pure android experience without any manufacturer crap in it, and more modifications than CM then yes its for you. Just know that you may encounter bugs that don't get worked out right away, some of them take time.
Section 2A: Unofficial AOKP Builds
These builds are based of off AOKP but they are unofficial because a developer wants to make there own changes, and add in there own modifications, themes, fixes, enhancements, etc. They come with the same risk as official AOKP builds, but any bugs found in them should not be reported to the official AOKP bug tracker because then these are unofficial builds. There isn't anything wrong with them being unofficial, its just a developer wanting to add there own twist to the AOKP builds.
Is this for me? If you're looking for that pure android experience without any manufacturer crap in it, and more modifications than CM then yes its for you. Just know that you may encounter bugs that don't get worked out right away, some of them take time. Make sure to read the OP to understand what has been changed in the build though.
Section 3: Paranoid Android
This rom is a phone/tablet hybrid rom. Its based off of pure android source just like CM, but has made vast changes to it. You'll be able to modify how each specific app shows up on the screen (want tablet mode only for youtube then you got it, want facebook to look bigger or smaller then you got it) and you'll get a wide variety of modifications as well. If you've ever watched a video of a tablet then you'll have an idea of what can happen. It truly is a phone and tablet hybrid, bringing the best of both worlds to your phone. It'll feel like pure android source and will have those features that come with that android version just with the tabletness added in. It comes with same possibility of bugs as other AOSP roms (GPS, data, nfc, mms, call volume, etc) these bugs are not guaranteed and may or may not occur. User A might have data issues but user B may not, your miles may vary with AOSP. Its a bit harder to explain everything for this rom, but i'm doing my best.
Is this for me? If your looking for pure android goodness but with a major overhaul of added in phone/tablet mode hybrid then yes its for you. Just be willing to accept that you may encounter bugs along the way.
Section 4: Other AOSP Roms
The reason i have this section is because its impossible to describe every kind of AOSP roms, especially when more can be added and such. But other AOSP rom's will come with the same pure android source as well, and will have those features. A lot of them merge in code from other various developers (with permission of course) but also add in there own toolkits, setting menus, etc. They are all great roms, but its hard to give every single one a section because its there all based off the same source and have some of the same kind of modifications added in. They all come with the same risk as other AOSP roms in terms of bugs (GPS, data, nfc, mms, call volume, etc) For these rom's you'll have to pick and choose, if you love a certain developer that makes AOSP roms, or have used a developers AOSP rom on a different phone then you'll know what to expect from that rom/developer. Again there is nothing wrong with these rom's its just hard to give all them all there own section when most of the information is going to be the same and repetitive.
Is this for me? If you're looking for that pure android experience without any manufacturer crap in it then yes its for you. If you follow a specific developer then yes its for you. Its going to have more modifications then regular CM or AOSP roms. You really have to test them out for yourself, just read the thread and see what they've changed/modified/added in. Just know that you may encounter bugs that don't get worked out right away, some of them take time.
Section 5: MIUI Rom
Miui is AOSP based but it won't look like it is. This is because with MIUI you get an entire different user interface experience. It's got its own custom toggles in the notification pulldown, its own theme engine (theme's have to be designed specifically for miui), its own camera app, and many other apps that are designed specifically for it. The main miui team puts out a rom in chinese once a week every friday, and it then gets ported to various devices including the SIII. The downside to miui is some things take a lot longer to get worked out in terms of bugs, this is because its ported to our phone but also because its a completely different interface with many applications that have to be worked on before they'll work flawlessly. Its got the same possibility of bugs as other AOSP roms. I've personally used it before on another device and ill tell you its definitely one of a kind, and fun to play with.
Is this for me? If you're looking for something completely and totally different then yes this is for you. Just know that because the larger builds are released once a week it may take time for some bugs to get worked out, but again you'll have something that's completely different from any of your friends as long as you can accept a few bugs here and there.
Section 6: Various Issues and Solutions
NFC Issues: Grayed out, won't turn on, etc. This is NOT a problem with rom itself, to solve this issue you will need to go back to a touchwiz rom and turn NFC on. Then boot into recovery and flash your respective rom choice If that still does not work flash this zip here in recovery after flashing your respective rom.
GPS Issues: Again not Rom related entirely, its more or less AOSP related. This problem again can be avoided by ensuring a full gps lock and leaving gps turned on prior to flashing. If you still have issues after that download GPS status from the market and use that to help with the gps lock. You can also flash this zip file here to help solve the issue
CHAPTER 3: Kernels/Battery life/Radios/Jelly Bean 4.2 Storage System
Section 1: Kernels
Okay kernels are one of the biggest advantages to rooting. They can be used to increase performance vastly, increase your battery life, make your phone faster, increase ram, etc. You can modify the clock speeds using apps to overclock or underclock the cpu, you can increase or decrease the voltage, etc. They are also what makes your phone boot up (flash a kernel mean't for touchwiz on AOSP and its not going to boot up) Kernels are built on two main bases for the SIII: Android Version (ICS, JB, etc) and Touchwiz/AOSP. This means that these kernels are used for specific rom bases and android versions. You have to make sure you read what the specific kernel is built for so you don't flash the wrong one and mess up your phone. Kernels are always your miles may vary, a kernel that works great for me and doubles my battery life, might make yours worse. You really can't guarantee any of that until you flash it on and modify the settings to your liking. Always make a backup before flashing a kernel so just incase your phone doesn't bootup you can easily restore the backup.
Section 2: Battery Life
This is another question i see asked all the time "What's the battery life like?" Battery life is based on a few things:
1. ROM Choice - Some roms might have better battery life than others. Your miles again will vary. You'll never get the same experience as another user.
2. Kernel choice and settings - some kernels work better than others in terms of battery life, what works for you may not work for me. But you can modify your cpu speed settings to help with this. Settings screen off profiles can help as well. I personally decrease the cpu to 384mhz while the screen is off, and it helps me, will it help you? I have no idea.
3. Personal Use - Self explanatory, if you're constantly using your phone, browsing the web, sending emails, playing music, gps, this and that then the battery might drain faster than somebody who doesn't use there phone as much. If you manage to get 3-4+ hours of screen on time then your battery life is fine. How quickly you reach that is based on your use. This also includes whether your still on the stock battery or not, if you've got an extended battery in your phone then your battery life may very well be a lot longer than somebody with the stock battery. You have full control over your personal use.
4. Coverage and Signal - If you're constantly in areas with terrible signal then your battery life will suffer. My suggestion? If you're near wifi turn it on, that way your signal won't matter as much because all your syncing and such will be done through wifi. There isn't much a rom or kernel developer can do about this, its just based on where you live.
5. Wakelocks and syncing - Make sure to download betterbatterystats, why? Because if your battery life sucks then your phone may not be going into deep sleep and this app can help tell you why. Wakelocks are anytime that your phone is awaken from deep sleep, the more wakelocks you have the less deep sleep you get which equals less battery life. Some of these wakelocks can be controlled because many are caused by syncing. If you have apps syncing every 10 minutes, don't expect super great battery life because your phone is constantly being awaken. Control your syncing, if you don't check twitter every 10 minutes then don't have it sync every 10 minutes. A lot of those apps will automatically sync upon being started.
6. Perception - I put this here because its true. Everybody expects something different with there battery life, so they perceive it that way. Some users want over 24 hours whereas some don't. For me personally i consider great battery life to be being able to leave for work at 6:45am, then go to class, then go to the gym, then do whatever else and come home. If i can make it from 6:45am to 8 or 9pm without being forced to charge then i consider that great battery life. Why do you say its great when its only 14 hours without charging? Because i charge my phone every night before going to bed, it may not even be less than 50% less but i still charge it so that's good enough for me since i made it through my day. Everybody has different expectations so don't always assume battery life sucks when somebody says it does because its based on there own perception of what's "great" and what's "bad"
Battery life is and always will be your miles may vary because there are just too many factors to consider. Some people who say "The battery life on this rom sucks" just have a runaway app killing there battery life and don't even realize it. The only true way to gauge battery is based on what you consider to be great battery life.
Section 3: Radios
Another question asked "What's the best radio?" Radios are always your miles may vary, its all based on your signal/coverage area. But there's also a big placebo effect that comes with radios, the second you flash a new radio, you expect the signal to be better so you see it that way. It might actually be better or it could be worse or exactly the same. Some users will get increased speed on one radio and somebody else might get decreased speed, but you can't base your radio stats right after flashing it because you need to test it in real world scenarios, not just sitting around looking at the dbm. I didn't originally plan on having this section but its necessary because in the future you may or may not need a specific radio for a specific rom to work. As of right now (10/22/2012) the radio you choose to use will work on any rom (make sure its a verizon radio) in the future though you may have to use specific radios for specific roms depending on the versions of android that come out, and when that happens you'll have to make sure you're using the right radio otherwise you may not get any kind of signal at all. Remember that radios are mostly user experience based, and what works for you might not work as well for somebody else.
Section 4: Jelly Bean 4.2 Storage System
Alright i'm going to do my best to explain this in the simplest way possible. With the introduction of 4.2 Jelly Bean, the storage/file system changed as well. What i mean by this is at least on AOSP roms when you flash a 4.2 Rom you'll get a "0" (zero) folder with everything from your internal SD card in it. The reason for this is because with the multi user support its the new way Android sorts stuff. Now many of you are probably wondering "Ummm... this is confusing" or "is this bad?" it is confusing at first but honestly its not that bad. The /storage/sdcard0 now points to /storage/emulater/legacy folder which is then emulated by the 0 folder. Easy version: Even if you put stuff in /storage/sdcard0 it'll automatically show up in those other folders anyways. It may look like you've got stuff duplicated, but its really not. Whatever file is on the sdcard0 (Internal card) is only there once.
The good news, if you update your recoveries to the latest versions, then you won't have to worry about any 0 folder nonsense anyways. You'll still have a legacy folder, but that's not a big deal. Just don't mess with it and your phone will be fine.
***If anybody has a better explanation for that, PLEASE let me know and i'll update/add it in ***
I really hope that this thread can help reduce the number of questions asked about which rom to use and such. I put a lot of time into typing all of this out to help you guys, so hopefully it'll do just that and help
Also i spent a lot of time writing this up, so please do not copy and paste it on another forum and claim it as your own work. I realize its just a guide and relatively public information, but still i'd rather it not get copied and pasted onto other forums/threads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
***MODS: feel free to move this if its in the wrong place or something***
Mine
****Change Log****
3/14/2013
Chapter 3:Section 4: Jelly Bean 4.2 Storage Added
12/2/2012
Made backing up your IMEI "Important" to read
Added an AOSP common problem and solution section
10/25/2012
Added another IMEI backup guide to the top.
Added encouraging words for reading other guides.
10/24/2012
Added in links for other useful guides at the top
Added in known issues when going from ICS Touchwiz to AOSP JB
10/23/2012:
Added in Miui (Section 5 under AOSP Roms)
Added in Introduction and Disclaimer (very top)
Began fixing grammar errors
Super! Thx for this contribution
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda premium
Super write up. Thank you very much.
Great info. Thanks. - noob
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
How do people have time to write this ****? Lol!
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium HD app
Awesome write up for the noobs bro.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda premium
I was just thinking we really needed a single source to track the progress of each ROM category. This makes a great framework for tracking that information. Thanks for putting this together.
My suggestion would be to add a few bullets below each ROM category that note the most prominent long-term bugs. I think that could significantly reduce the same question being asked over and over within each topic.
Example: all of the AOSP 4.1.x ROMs currently suffer from low video recording volume, poor voice command recognition, and limited in-call volume range (as of this post). Just a suggestion. Keep up the good work!
DroidHam said:
How do people have time to write this ****? Lol!
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium HD app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really have no idea, i was just sitting and thinking "man i answer the same questions almost everyday, if only there was a single thread for the answer" and well... now its here
apet8464 said:
I was just thinking we really needed a single source to track the progress of each ROM category. This makes a great framework for tracking that information. Thanks for putting this together.
My suggestion would be to add a few bullets below each ROM category that note the most prominent long-term bugs. I think that could significantly reduce the same question being asked over and over. Example: all of the AOSP 4.1.x ROMs currently suffer from low video recording volume, poor voice command recognition, and limited in-call volume range (as of this post).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the suggestion I actually considered that and may add it in within the next few days, we'll see what happens.
Neverendingxsin said:
I really have no idea, i was just sitting and thinking "man i answer the same questions almost everyday, if only there was a single thread for the answer" and well... now its here
Thanks for the suggestion I actually considered that and may add it in within the next few days, we'll see what happens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After thinking about this concept more, a community-maintained wiki might actually be a better medium for efforts like this. Ensuring accuracy, keeping everything up to date - and remaining relevant as a result - always seems to be the greatest challenge.
This thread was well over due. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.
Sent from my Galaxy SIII
Very helpful. I think you may have repeated yourself somewhere in there
Shh! maybe I'm just paranoid, but I think people are listening....
Well thanks man!
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium HD app
Thank you!
Super!!! Thank you! :good: :good: :good: :highfive:
Sticky!
FrostyOrDie said:
Very helpful. I think you may have repeated yourself somewhere in there
Shh! maybe I'm just paranoid, but I think people are listening....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure i did lol
Samsung.Galaxy.S3 said:
Super!!! Thank you! :good: :good: :good: :highfive:
Sticky!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
apet8464 said:
After thinking about this concept more, a community-maintained wiki might actually be a better medium for efforts like this. Ensuring accuracy, keeping everything up to date - and remaining relevant as a result - always seems to be the greatest challenge.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mhmmm. Thats why i tried to keep this as "basic" as possible and just going over the general stuff. I'm able to keep up with a lot but only to a certain extent.
Neverendingxsin said:
mhmmm. Thats why i tried to keep this as "basic" as possible and just going over the general stuff. I'm able to keep up with a lot but only to a certain extent.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True. Fortunately, the ROM categories themselves are fairly constant, so this thread should be pretty low maintenance. Hopefully it will get stickied or merged with a stickied thread so it remains visible to noobs.
apet8464 said:
True. Fortunately, the ROM categories themselves are fairly constant, so this thread should be pretty low maintenance. Hopefully it will get stickied or merged with a stickied thread so it remains visible to noobs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah thankfully they are I've just got a few more things to add and a little cleaning to do with this thread.
great writeup...this needs merged with the download list thread.

Stability and open source drivers

I've used a few other androids before with custom ROMs, and a major obstacle to stability seems to often be the fact that manufacturers typically don't include open source drivers, which leads to reverse engineered open source drivers being developed on xda, which often aren't as good as the binaries that can only be used with stock based ROMs.
Since the n5 is a Google phone, are the drivers open source as well?
v1nsai said:
I've used a few other androids before with custom ROMs, and a major obstacle to stability seems to often be the fact that manufacturers typically don't include open source drivers, which leads to reverse engineered open source drivers being developed on xda, which often aren't as good as the binaries that can only be used with stock based ROMs.
Since the n5 is a Google phone, are the drivers open source as well?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
https://developers.google.com/android/nexus/drivers
https://android-review.googlesource.com
As far as I know, the stock ROM on the Nexus 5 doesn't use any proprietary binaries so it stays closer to AOSP, which is why it also seems to perform "worse" in benchmarks and makes some people buy other devices because they have "better performance", lol.
the nexus 5 is a nexus, those drivers are made directly for the nexus 5, no hacking needed. other androids are different, they arent nexus.
Sorry for delayed reply
Sounds like you guys are basically saying that since the N5 comes with real, untampered stock android so custom Roms are only marginally beneficial.
I'm gonna have to try this out, it sounds like Android the way it's supposed to be without all the carrier and manufacturer crap destroying it.
The fact that the CM thread is so quiet on this board really days a lot.
v1nsai said:
Sorry for delayed reply
Sounds like you guys are basically saying that since the N5 comes with real, untampered stock android so custom Roms are only marginally beneficial.
I'm gonna have to try this out, it sounds like Android the way it's supposed to be without all the carrier and manufacturer crap destroying it.
The fact that the CM thread is so quiet on this board really days a lot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yea, there are better roms than cm, almost all aosp based, not as bloated and much faster.
v1nsai said:
Sorry for delayed reply
Sounds like you guys are basically saying that since the N5 comes with real, untampered stock android so custom Roms are only marginally beneficial.
I'm gonna have to try this out, it sounds like Android the way it's supposed to be without all the carrier and manufacturer crap destroying it.
The fact that the CM thread is so quiet on this board really days a lot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If CM thread is quiet, it's being overshadowed by superior ROMs. Unsure why anyone would choose it for a Nexus.
Stock ROM works but has zero options. Couldn't stand it without Xposed. Don't want Xposed because I want ART.
I'm saying flash SlimKat for ROM. Then flash Code_Blue kernel. My opinions are subject to change... several times a month. And TWRP or PhilZ for recovery. Stay away from stock CWM.
So the stock drivers can be used for any aosp ROM because the stock is aosp? Or are there licensing issues with that?
v1nsai said:
So the stock drivers can be used for any aosp ROM because the stock is aosp? Or are there licensing issues with that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
one and the same in this case

[Discussion] Let's talk hybrids between AOSP and TouchWiz.

Now, lemme explain. I've seen this question asked in other forums as well, but I haven't seen an answer from a dev who would really know more about those specifics.
No, I'm not talking about AOSP theme flashed on TouchWiz. I mean, back on KitKat this WAS something I did often, and will probably do it again, but I'm talking totally swapping out some frameworks/libraries/under-the-hood stuff? Nexus 5 is the fastest device I've ever laid my hands on, and it's pure AOSP, but it camera was behaving... odd... from time to time.
I guess camera behavior scripts are really not easy, I've got a friend who's working precisely that, and he has a lot of headaches.
I'm talking probably nonsense, because TouchWiz is closed source except for the kernel, and modding AOSP frameworks to work with the TouchWiz ones (without knowing the code behind the latter) would be a lot of guessing and flashing again and again until it happens that the AOSP code you wrote is compatible with TouchWiz.
But mostly: the Nexus family is fast as hell, the Samsung firmware might be somewhat slower (not so sure after their take on Lollipop, DAMN dat thang actually can be fast!), but due to it's closed source it has more features (the stock camera, the S-Pen frameworks and software).
And last, but not least, if a dev reads this discussion and the thought of having to write a kernel for that passes through his head, he would probably react this way:
Code:
#define true false //Happy debugging suckers
...and do something actually useful with his time.
Your thoughts on the matter?
What you say is true, i was thinking of this three days ago when i flashed dirty unicorns rom, fantastic rom, fast as hell, but the camera on AOSP is soooo bad, and s-pen and s-view cover dont work, It's really so hard to port the stock camera app on AOSP??
I recall on the S2 there was an attempt to get the stock TW camera onto non-TW roms. If I recall rightly they had moderate success, with just a few of the features not working.
For me getting SPen features on non-TW roms is far more important. It's the only reason I won't go near non-stock roms on the Note 3.
The TW source code can be obtained fairly easily (for the most part) by reverse engineering the apks/framework files. Integrating core components from TW (ie. S Pen features) into AOSP, however, would be an incredibly huge undertaking, as it would require reworking the vast majority of framework files. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but it would take an insane amount of time and effort, and frankly, I just don't see it being worthwhile. There are alternatives (via apps or what have you) to every feature TW has.
There was a TW based for for the s2, i9100. I think it was called chameleon rom? It was basically just Stock TW with the samsung camera app, but aosp dialer contacts, systemui etc
Beefheart said:
For me getting SPen features on non-TW roms is far more important. It's the only reason I won't go near non-stock roms on the Note 3.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
THIS WOULD BE IDEAL.
Weirdly, i have seen the SPen SDK Nearly in all Lollipop Samsung roms, even on S4/S5, WHY?
celderic said:
There was a TW based for for the s2, i9100. I think it was called chameleon rom? It was basically just Stock TW with the samsung camera app, but aosp dialer contacts, systemui etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it possible to bring AOSP systemui to a TW ROM? I mean, not just a theme, for example, the notifications panel behaviour, lockscreen, settings menu, etc.
WideBRs said:
Is it possible to bring AOSP systemui to a TW ROM? I mean, not just a theme, for example, the notifications panel behaviour, lockscreen, settings menu, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^ this is precisely what I'm talking about.
A dev would have to get the AOSP frameworks and libraries and modify them in such a way that they'd work with the TouchWiz frameworks AND kernel.
@Morningstar said it a couple of posts above yours:
"The TW source code can be obtained fairly easily (for the most part) by reverse engineering the apks/framework files. Integrating core components from TW (ie. S Pen features) into AOSP, however, would be an incredibly huge undertaking, as it would require reworking the vast majority of framework files. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but it would take an insane amount of time and effort, and frankly, I just don't see it being worthwhile. There are alternatives (via apps or what have you) to every feature TW has."
sirobelec said:
^ this is precisely what I'm talking about.
A dev would have to get the AOSP frameworks and libraries and modify them in such a way that they'd work with the TouchWiz frameworks AND kernel.
@Morningstar said it a couple of posts above yours:
"The TW source code can be obtained fairly easily (for the most part) by reverse engineering the apks/framework files. Integrating core components from TW (ie. S Pen features) into AOSP, however, would be an incredibly huge undertaking, as it would require reworking the vast majority of framework files. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but it would take an insane amount of time and effort, and frankly, I just don't see it being worthwhile. There are alternatives (via apps or what have you) to every feature TW has."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but what would be simpler and more efficient? AOSP features to TW rom or vice versa? I think, from user side, i would be more interested in getting TW (like Spen) to AOSP I dont use many TW features
As someone who used to make hybrid ROMs, I can tell you porting touchwiz to aosp is near enough impossible. Porting aosp stuff to touchwiz is easier. Tw camera to aosp just won't happen
Certain Touchwiz apps rely on code implemented across nearly all the framework files
Libs as well? No chance
Reverse engineering thousands of individual files and even more lines of code makes it a task comparable to setting up your own os...and smali is nothing like Java...so its not an easy way of getting touchwiz source code at all
DSA said:
As someone who used to make hybrid ROMs, I can tell you porting touchwiz to aosp is near enough impossible. Porting aosp stuff to touchwiz is easier. Tw camera to aosp just won't happen
Certain Touchwiz apps rely on code implemented across nearly all the framework files
Libs as well? No chance
Reverse engineering thousands of individual files and even more lines of code makes it a task comparable to setting up your own os...and smali is nothing like Java...so its not an easy way of getting touchwiz source code at all
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just for the record, back when I had an S4, the phone spent the most time with BlackBox, and it's exactly your ROM which made me ask this question, but I didn't have much hope you'd answer yourself.
Huge thanks for the input.
This thread could be very much eased down with the release of the Galaxy S6.
Sammy agrees for less bloat and less distance from AOSP, quoting the "rumours", it will be 99% Google, which most probably is a result of their cross licensing deals for patents.
March seems definitely exciting, even 5.1 can be in sight if Sammy gets a bit Nexus-ish, which will most definitely be the only reason i would go for Exynos, otherwise, no Sammy without openly documented hardware.
PlutoDelic said:
This thread could be very much eased down with the release of the Galaxy S6.
Sammy agrees for less bloat and less distance from AOSP, quoting the "rumours", it will be 99% Google, which most probably is a result of their cross licensing deals for patents.
March seems definitely exciting, even 5.1 can be in sight if Sammy gets a bit Nexus-ish, which will most definitely be the only reason i would go for Exynos, otherwise, no Sammy without openly documented hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They say it will be as _fast_ as a Nexus, not that they're going AOSP. No one here thinks Sammy would leave their beloved TouchWiz.
Of course, if come Sunday I receive the biggest plot twist in recent Android history and the S6 ships close-to-AOSP, I'll be one of the happiest people alive, but I don't believe it will happen. xD
WideBRs said:
Is it possible to bring AOSP systemui to a TW ROM? I mean, not just a theme, for example, the notifications panel behaviour, lockscreen, settings menu, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not impossible but really hard to do hence why nobody has done it
sirobelec said:
^ this is precisely what I'm talking about.
A dev would have to get the AOSP frameworks and libraries and modify them in such a way that they'd work with the TouchWiz frameworks AND kernel.
@Morningstar said it a couple of posts above yours:
"The TW source code can be obtained fairly easily (for the most part) by reverse engineering the apks/framework files. Integrating core components from TW (ie. S Pen features) into AOSP, however, would be an incredibly huge undertaking, as it would require reworking the vast majority of framework files. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but it would take an insane amount of time and effort, and frankly, I just don't see it being worthwhile. There are alternatives (via apps or what have you) to every feature TW has."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im using part of applications AOSP on TW ROM like contacts, Phone Dialer, MMS, wisard and some mods on framework styling but we can t get the receptive calls and provider and UI for example
Sent from my GT-I8552B using XDA Free mobile app
sirobelec said:
They say it will be as _fast_ as a Nexus, not that they're going AOSP. No one here thinks Sammy would leave their beloved TouchWiz.
Of course, if come Sunday I receive the biggest plot twist in recent Android history and the S6 ships close-to-AOSP, I'll be one of the happiest people alive, but I don't believe it will happen. xD
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So far we havent seen anything software wise from the S6, seems like they are hiding things well, the moment N4/S5 got released we straight away knew how the UI looked like.
I think Sammy knows that the only way to sell exynos and not load other brands ARM adaption is by being more open. I know this is "wishful thinking" up to a point, but there is no way (most) Snapdragon N3/S5 users will upgrade to Exynos S6, and i hope they are aware of that.
to summarize:
Slighlty Debloated
TouchWiz Optimised
It's not that the links say much, but as i mentioned earlier, there has been a weird Patent agreement between Google, Cisco and Samsung (and Microsoft to a point), and S6 might be the first device to use them properly.

Android stock on galaxy s6 ?

I have a question is it possible to disable or uninstall touchwiz for android stock ? thanks
Unfortunately I do not think this is possible, you can install a launcher of your preference, but the rest of the interface will be Touchwiz. We will have to wait for an AOSP rom to come out, or for CM13 to become stable for daily use and available for all variants of the S6.
With the S6's in-house built Exynos and Samsungs lack of documentation on it, it could be a while before you see any stable AOSP based roms, I'm hoping someone will find a way soon
thommasnd said:
I have a question is it possible to disable or uninstall touchwiz for android stock ? thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Touchwiz is part of the system setup, so unless someone builds a fully working cyanogen build which is very difficult as Samsung don't release chips chipset sources you won't see complete removal of Touchwiz, you can change the launcher that's it.
sofir786 said:
Touchwiz is part of the system setup, so unless someone builds a fully working cyanogen build which is very difficult as Samsung don't release chips chipset sources you won't see complete removal of Touchwiz, you can change the launcher that's it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok thanks
Samsung have become (have they ever?) somewhat open source unfriendly. Being a big competitor against Apple may have something to do with it (don't want them stealing ideas or anything ?).
But yes, as the others said, because of so much proprietary shizzle under the hood, a lot of hardware specific code needs reverse engineering and testing intensively. Very time consuming for the guys that do it (so if/when they succeed, be kind and donate for the work).
To further complicate matters, Touchwiz isn't just a bolted on addition to provide something to look at. It is deeply integrated into some of the base code of the android system. Which is a p.i.t.a. for those of us that like to customise etc. Try to remove one part at the whole thing collapses into a mess.
Just so you know, work on a CyanogenMod 13 release is underway. But due to the undocumented hardware modules, the development is barely even beta status and only recommended for developers. But it is happening ?
(I really should sleep before posting, as I waffle a lot when I'm tired ?)

Custom ROMs... Are they still worth it?

I have been a flashaholic for some time, probably the Eclair days, but I really question if it's worth it now days.
Most Lollipop and newer ROMs, except for Nexus devices, seem to have some kind of issues... If not immediately, then over time. While at the same time factory ROMs get better, partially because the base code is better and because many manufacturers are getting better at it.
And now, some features are being blocked just by unlocking of bootloader, even if you're otherwise stock, like Android Pay and others like Pok�©mon Go.
I find all I really do now on custom roms is some interface tweaks... Change the battery icon, add a clear all button to recents, and add arrows to the navigation bar, all minor stuff. Otherwise things like Nova Launcher, SwiftKey, and GSAM largely don't even require root anymore much less a custom ROM. Part of it used to be for battery life, but now, at least on modern Moto devices, most custom roms struggle just to match the battery life of stock.
I've tried every rom for this device I can find, here and other places, and they all seem to have a variety of things that fail, from minor annoyances to major services broken like GPS, or they fail over time.
My question for discussion is it still worth it, and why do you ROM or even root anymore?
I used to run a variety CM ROM's on Samsung Galaxy & Note devices. Starting with the Galaxy S2 Skyrocket and then every decent device Samsung released until the bootloaders stopped getting cracked.
There was always something that just didn't work right and I'd have random crashes.
But for me it was semi-worth it. I like to tinker and customize a lot.
Fast forward to the last thirteen months with my first non-Samsung since. A Motorola Moto X Pure.
Best damn phone I've ever had.
And there is CM available, but I quickly discovered AOSP ROM's like Dirty Unicorn and Broken OS.
Both these ROM's are FULL of customization not found in Xposed modules, and both ROM's have been 100% reliable.
I may have had one lockup in the last 13 months. And everything from GPS to Bluetooth, etc. have all worked perfectly.
So for me, yes... custom ROM's are more than worth it once you find the right ROM. My phone is heavily customized to my needs and super reliable.
The only thing lacking with MotoX was kernel development. Which I guess is where you start losing some reliability.
But it's also where I'm hoping the Pixel will get some good development and I'm looking forward to it. :good:
Non-rooted stock MM has been going great for me lately. Lots of great built in features like Moto actions, etc. I play Pokemon while walking on my breaks at work, and the last few updates forced my hand to go back to stock. I was (am) also a flashoholic, and it was mainly to have custom features and better performance on outdated and mfg abandoned phones. It was also a must for my Kindle Fire. I really don't see myself going away from stock MM (soon to be Nougat) on my MXPE at this point. I still flash ROMs on my G2 and Note 3 though, but barely use them outside the house.
CZ Eddie said:
I used to run a variety CM ROM's on Samsung Galaxy & Note devices. Starting with the Galaxy S2 Skyrocket and then every decent device Samsung released until the bootloaders stopped getting cracked.
There was always something that just didn't work right and I'd have random crashes.
But for me it was semi-worth it. I like to tinker and customize a lot.
Fast forward to the last thirteen months with my first non-Samsung since. A Motorola Moto X Pure.
Best damn phone I've ever had.
And there is CM available, but I quickly discovered AOSP ROM's like Dirty Unicorn and Broken OS.
Both these ROM's are FULL of customization not found in Xposed modules, and both ROM's have been 100% reliable.
I may have had one lockup in the last 13 months. And everything from GPS to Bluetooth, etc. have all worked perfectly.
So for me, yes... custom ROM's are more than worth it once you find the right ROM. My phone is heavily customized to my needs and super reliable.
The only thing lacking with MotoX was kernel development. Which I guess is where you start losing some reliability.
But it's also where I'm hoping the Pixel will get some good development and I'm looking forward to it. :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm... I have been on that "rom that shan't be named on XDA" for a while now. After a month started suffering SoD randomly and Play Services has stopped issues. DU 10.6 couldn't maintain GPS lock, but 10.5 was fine, seemed to effect only a handful of devices, lucky me.
Anyway, thanks for your input.
acejavelin said:
Hmm... I have been on that "rom that shan't be named on XDA" for a while now. After a month started suffering SoD randomly and Play Services has stopped issues. DU 10.6 couldn't maintain GPS lock, but 10.5 was fine, seemed to effect only a handful of devices, lucky me.
Anyway, thanks for your input.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also have been a avid user of the "rom that shan't be named on XDA" for many months now with no real issues. By chance have you tried a fresh install again. The latest release was back in late August a 4.9.1 version that made corrections to some issues on the 4.9 release.
Jimi Mack said:
I also have been a avid user of the "rom that shan't be named on XDA" for many months now with no real issues. By chance have you tried a fresh install again. The latest release was back in late August a 4.9.1 version that made corrections to some issues on the 4.9 release.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not yet... I have been on 4.9.1 already, and have been working with the devs a bit on it but seems mostly isolated to my device.
acejavelin said:
Not yet... I have been on 4.9.1 already, and have been working with the devs a bit on it but seems mostly isolated to my device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If anything try a fresh install and see if your issues were only from maybe a bad original install. If they show up again then I would say they are isolated to your device.
Jimi Mack said:
If anything try a fresh install and see if your issues were only from maybe a bad original install. If they show up again then I would say they are isolated to your device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm out of town for the weekend, in a rather rural area, so maybe will try tomorrow evening.
LMT pie, adaway, naptime, and general tweaking are the only reasons I root on a phone this close to stock android.
I didn't run custom ROMs on this phone until about August of this year. That was when battery life on aicp started to get comparable with stock for me. I can get most of the features I want from gravitybox, but I prefer them baked into the ROM. Xposed always seems a little problematic even when you don't install janky modules. I really like the notification led; missed that when I got this phone. I know we're supposed to use moto display, but I think that makes more sense on amoled than a great big LCD. Never had good luck with lightflow or the led enabler apps, but the custom roms work great. I really like slim recents too. I haven't found any modules that work to put KitKat like recents on M ROMs.
TruPureXMM + GravityBox
Loved my MXP so much I bought one for my mom who was hating her iPhone5. Kept it stock (for obvious reasons), so I have a good baseline to compare to my MXP running TruPureXMM + GravityBox. I've tried a bunch of ROMS for this phone but I always come back to TruPureXMM + GravityBox. Oh, and Tasker.
There is no way in hell I would go back to stock.
I used Cyanogenmod on my HTC Incredible and Verizon Galaxy Nexus. Didn't root or ROM for a while due to using the stock ROM on the 2nd generation Verizon Moto X 2014 and stock Android on the Nexus 5X and 6P. But, I had the itch to unlock the bootloader on my Moto X Pure, due to curiousity, and because it's likely that we will only see one more Nougat update. I tried CM13, but I was getting UI freeze ups and slowdowns on multiple builds, so I tried Dirty Unicorns 10.6, and that has been working fine. I may return to the stock ROM after the Nougat update, but in the meantime, I'm happy experimenting with different ROMs on the Pure.
I'd be cool with stock- as long as I could debloat it.
And it was updated fairly quickly.
Stock for this phone is great. Better than most. Only issue really is Moto is so far behind on security updates. They are on what, May I believe? CM13 is Oct.
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA-Developers mobile app
Stock here, never a issue. With Nougat in the horizon, a custom ROM is a big NO for me.
Enviado desde mi XT1575 mediante Tapatalk
I would say TruPureX with a few mods is a very solid and stable way to go. I myself am on TurboROM which has ceased current development, but have ZERO issues. AICP's MM build is the most feature filled and works flawlessly aside from one issue I don't have on other ROMs, where my bank app only shows black when using the camera to deposit checks, making AICP unusable for me, but highly recommended for others to try as that's the absolute only issue I could find after a week full of testing (Kind of what I do as a hobby is push ROMs to their limits to find the issues.)
So in short: TruPureXMM, TurboROM, AICP - are all great choices without the negatives associated with many custom ROMs.
Pretty sure we are all here to push the ROMs to he limits lol?
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA-Developers mobile app
Speaking of custom ROMs, I just searched android file host for Clark and there are new 7.0 builds of zephyros, pure nexus, aosp, and cos.
I'm in a limited data area so I haven't downloaded or tried them out yet.
jason2678 said:
Speaking of custom ROMs, I just searched android file host for Clark and there are new 7.0 builds of zephyros, pure nexus, aosp, and cos.
I'm in a limited data area so I haven't downloaded or tried them out yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Running the latest Zephyr after trying AICP and CM14. Uses substratum and SuperSU. Camera recording isn't working with snapdragon camera (FC), google camera (records but doesn't save). Had an android.phone FC but replaced with google phone/contacts and no problems so far. Still need to test speakerphone and bluetooth, but assuming those work as well as 6.0.1 I'm pretty impressed by Birdman.
Any roms that anyone can recommend? CM13 and OrionOS both have very bad stuttering after some time of use. Has anyone tried Pure Nexus or Slim6? Just need a good daily driver that can handle games without heating up so hot, and handle most social apps great...
jason2678 said:
Speaking of custom ROMs, I just searched android file host for Clark and there are new 7.0 builds of zephyros, pure nexus, aosp, and cos.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seriously? We've got like one and a half here.

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