Related
I've been seeing a lot of hostility & berating in the Kaiser forum lately. A lot of it stems from noobies with posts about things that have already been resolved, or about fearfully wanting to flash a new ROM.
A lot of the people with the really advanced CE knowledge are always busy & subtracting from their time affects all of us because they have less time to innovate & create.
I was thinking what if we created a new Sub-forum for Noobies with issues or with a desire to flash, but not the knowledge. We could have a few people there as Mods or some sort of assistant mod as a clearing house for the noobies that are coming everyday.
This could be a introduction to XDA & a way for the Noobie to learn good community principles & basic beginer knowledge. Learn how to post, search & where & how to find the information they need. A way to break them in, with a few patient people helping & guiding them.
If there were more serious issues you would then only have one or two persons bugging everyone else, (& the gods like Oli, Jocky, Dutty, Chainfire, & all the others I'm forgeting) instead of every noobie with the same question every day.
I am up for doing something like this, I've learned a lot here, & I'm sure one or two others would also be willing to give some of their time to make this place better.
With the tools available through IM & File Sharing thru MSN Messenger, I think we could cut the number of duplicate posts, & flame responses in half easily making it easier for everyone to find the information they need.
What do you think?
1. Is a noobie flashing & problem sub-forum a good idea?
2. Are you willing to help out & give back?
Yes and Yes
Every forum goes through this crap whenever a new flashing starts. Just realise that you were a noob once and get over it.
Just ignore noob posts if you don't want to help them.
That won't fix the problem. Why? The n00bs that post repeatedly answered questions don't read...and if they don't read then they'll post in the wrong forum because they "didn't know any better"...
This comes back to the same thing I've said all along...you can't fix stupid. Yes, we were all n00bs at one point. In many ways we will always be n00bs because tech changes so fast. But the majority of us take the time to read and research a bit to make sure the question hasn't been asked or to make sure we have all the information we need before embarking on the addictive ride of ROM Flashing. The ones that aren't willing to do that will most likely not bother asking questions in the n00b forum...they'll just post away in the Upgrading forum without a care in the world.
I understand the frustration with seeing so many of us lose it and unleash the fury of a thousand flames upon the unsuspecting n00b...and I apologize for my part in that...sorta...because I think they do deserve to have their brains bashed in by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick for not reading...
Agree with jarek91, can't fix stupid, just have to hope that they evolve quick enough to not be a consistent nuisance or hope they end up on the darwin awards email.
well, if we keep ignoring, soon, we'll get tire and stop coming here because the forum is flooded w/ noob questions (those questions have been answered numerous of time). They start the question with "I've searched, but could NOT find anything" eventhough the answer is in the stickies just above their questions.
BTW, before you criticize me, GSLEON3, or anyone for supporting the new sub forum for newbie, remember that, this forums is xda-developers, we develop and share knowledge. We welcome noob, but dont want to spend too much time with noob questions (most of the time I ignore )
xultar said:
Every forum goes through this crap whenever a new flashing starts. Just realise that you were a noob once and get over it.
Just ignore noob posts if you don't want to help them.
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I DO REALIZE THAT! I'm talking about centralizing it & am willing to help. I don't think that this is part of "Every Forum", this is the Kaiser Forum & includes the best & brightest from XDA. So why not make it a different forum, set it apart from the others & make it a better community through helping others. I think this would not only help the noobie, but everyone as a whole would benefit because the upgrading forum would be less cluttered making the search function actually usable to the new guy that doesn't undestand how to narrow his searches.
I understand about not reading, but they'd learn quickly if they see they only get answers if they go to the big bold "NOOBIES START HERE" forum. Especially if there's a sticky that says "Your post WILL be DELETED unless".
GSLEON3 said:
I understand about not reading, but they'd learn quickly if they see they only get answers if they go to the big bold "NOOBIES START HERE" forum. Especially if there's a sticky that says "Your post WILL be DELETED unless".
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There was a stickie?
Which is exactly how that would be met. (So I'm a pessimist...)
We've all asked "n00b" questions, and we should be allowed to do so. If you make a forum called "n00b questions" the same people who don't read the stickies will STILL post in the main forum, and say they didn't see the "n00b questions" forum.
It's unavoidable, and the best thing we can do is help the people who ask these questions by telling them to search, but also providing them the answer, so that they learn and get their answer.
met3ora said:
We've all asked "n00b" questions, and we should be allowed to do so. If you make a forum called "n00b questions" the same people who don't read the stickies will STILL post in the main forum, and say they didn't see the "n00b questions" forum.
It's unavoidable, and the best thing we can do is help the people who ask these questions by telling them to search, but also providing them the answer, so that they learn and get their answer.
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I still ask dumb questions from time to time. My intent is not to slam the new guy, quite the opposite actually. I'm talking about a sub-forum where they can find the answer & a little support to some of the most common questions & issues that arise when entering the world of Flashing & Upgrading.
A place where a few willing people can hook up with the new comer & use tools klike IM & filesharing to walk the new guy through flashing & problem solving, kind of hands on instruction where you can walk the timid newcomer through his issues while using the tools to show him, through his own action, how to figure things out. Again, a sort of less advanced clearing house of sorts. Not a place of punishment for being new, but more of a "Welcome to XDA, figuring this stuff out can be fun & exciting, let me show you how" type of a place.
I like the noobie, & I really like the noobie that has a "I think my phone is bricked" challenge. I just think it would be a nice touch to have a place for the new guy to go where he could not just find the answers, but the reasoning behind them.
I also know that many don't read the stickies, but people do read the forum headers, the name of the forum & sub-forum, & if they saw "This is the place to get answers about how to flash & fix flash issues, that is where he's gonna go. Everybody else has been here long enough to know that if they have a major contribution, where it should be posted.
It would be like tiered service, most noobie problems are similar & can be handled there, if something more advanced pops up, or a bug detemined to affect many, then the mod or admin bumps it up to the next level.
Oh, & mcmexican you think everyone's an idiot
Maybe this is material for a new thread, but...
I think we should use a new wiki.
1. The wiki software used here is pretty bad.
2. The wiki here takes up bandwidth.
Using something like wetpaint.com (there are many others) provides a place that's different from here, using someone else's bandwidth.
Also, they have easier-to-edit wiki's. I think the more attractive, organized, and navigable the wiki is, the less newbie problems we'll have.
nevermind...
I think the subforum sounds like an excellent idea. I'm not nearly an expert but have done some flashing and so on and would gladly help out if I have the time. Only problem as I can see is that it will be hard to draw the line between the "noob forum" and the regular one.
i am trying for ten minutes to put my thoughts into words...English is not my native language. i hope i am gonna be able to make myself understood...
here is how to do it:
1. create something like a gate or tunnel where newbies have to go through. some thing, where they cant right away post something. they can read.
and if they want to post a tread, they have to go through some kind of selection menu or so. just like on ebay when you want to sell something.
so lets say someone wants to post a tread, there is a selection of main toppings they have to go through. and so on. till they get automatically redirected to the answer of what they were going to ask in the first place...
they are forced to go through some kind of multiple choice thing...
2. i think its super annoying when someone like dutty brings out a new ROM and you want to read through it, to find out what might be wrong with it, just to read a million people saying: cool man, thanks dude blablabla.
don't get me wrong. i love his ROMs. but i should sent him a pm or create a poll thing so people vote on how much they like it. his treads reach easily 2000 replies. 1900 are thank you notes...
thanks dutty,
georgios
I agree. The same people not searching the forums, nor reading stickies, the Wiki, or any FAQ's will post in the regular forums anyway. I think when you get some of these people new to the forum there is so much information they get overwhelmed and just ask in the first place they find.
In another forum I'm a member of we have people asking Verizon questions in the AT&T forum, people asking about CDMA phones in the GSM forum, and such. We really divided it up... there are separate forums for each carrier, and forums for each of the major device manufacturers, then there's the Motorola forum with the Razr subfourm, and then there's the CDMA models and GSM model subforums under that. The vague questions still come... "I want to hack my phone, how do I do that???" When you finally get them to reply back with the model and carrier they have they have almost always posted in the wrong forum.
I guess what I'm saying is that it sounds like a good idea, but the problem will still be there, and seem even worse, because those that post first and read the FAQ's later (If at all) will be posting in the main forum anyway.
-Jay
I am a brand new guy to the board and have only had my Tilt little over a week and have really enjoyed testing and learning all this stuff that a ton of you guys have already mastered. I like the idea of giving us new guys a area where we can try and hash things out ourselves. When you are new you don't mind if guys ask the same questions you just ask 10 mins ago, but I know that must be a pain in the butt to some of the more skilled and seasoned guys around here. I believe if you just leave us on our own where we can go back and read what you guys have already posted for us and then come back and ask questions that we might still have between ourselves then we will figure it out soon enough and lets face it, that is how we all learn. Just my 2 cents, but please make sure you pros do stop by and check on us ever so often so we don't blow up the mobile phone world.
Thanks,
JMan
I like the sub-forum idea. Just to point out, Modaco does something like this... they have a beginner forum. Not that xda has to be like Modaco, but there is a precedent for this...
Absolute Beginners
New to Windows Mobile? New to MoDaCo? Lost and don't know where to start? Post in here and a member of our team will point you in the right direction, and move your post to the appropriate area!
http://www.modaco.com/forum.html
You could make people who like to direct and assist others as the moderators of this forum to act as traffic cops... so to speak. This will leave the cooks to focus on doing great ROMs.
I have a question for a Mod or Admin if they read this... maybe the search problem is a admin setting problem. Can someone verify that vBulletin Search to FULLTEXT inside the admincp of vBulletin?
There are also ways to embed google search into the forum:
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=171042
why not create a new one?
I'm new to the forum, and honestly did not fully understand the title of the forum till now - that the forum was primarily for hard core developers. Given the success and ease of Google, we find a gold mine like xda, and fall in love.
So since there is a Kaiser, Kaiser upgrading, and Kaiser Accessories, why can't there be a Kaiser for rookies (took me a while to figure out what what a noob was). That might be a way for us lesser ones ( juniors) to talk, and the genius's out there (seniors) dont subscribe ! Then u would have every right to FLAME anyone on the upgrading forum. Plus we may be more willing to jump in and answer without the guru's watching.
my 2 cents
I think a noobie forum is a good idea. I too have seen alot of hostility towards "stupid" or repeat questions. While I am not exactly a noobie, I still have a dumb question every now and then, that's just the way it goes when one is learning I guess. I often can't find things when I search, when you are very new this is especially hard, because sometimes you don't even know what to search for.
I have received excellent help here from many kind people, and just don't know what I would have done without this forum. But even I, who am not a COMPLETE noobie, got made fun of the other day by a poster, because after reading something several times, I missed something on a page. The poster not only posted twice to point out my stupidity, but even took the time and energy to create a photoshop graphic to show what an idiot I was for missing the information. I thought it was sad that attitude was taken. I ALWAYS go out of my way to help others, with what limited knowledge I have. I often receive PMs of can you help me..., and I try my best to explain things as clearly as I can.
I totally understand that there are many here, who are way too advanced for questions like "how do I make my today look like yours?" And I would never expect them to spend time answering, when there time would be much better spent on more advanced things (and I'm not being sarcastic at all, I really do completely understand more advanced members should spend their time on more advanced things). There are some of us here with some knowledge able to help those with simple questions, so I'd say maybe people who are bothered by others posts, could just ignore the dumb questions. LOL, I've never even flashed a ROM (too chicken and broke to void my warranty), but I sure can put together a great looking and functioning Today screen. An I surely know how to install every tweak and cab to make my phone function as efficiently as possible. And, I will be more than happy to answer questions of that caliber
Maybe a noobie forum could cut down on some of the hostility, and we could help out beginners. I for one would be more than willing to answer any questions that I am capable of answering, and leave those who are more knowledgeable to deal with the hard stuff
All,
I've been a member of this forum for a few months now and am sincerely grateful for all the useful advice and help I have received. My own posting count is relatively low because I only try to help if I have something useful to say.
The one overriding post I tend to see these days is the idiot who likes bash the other users for not reading threads, doing searches etc. Now I actually have a full time job in the I.T industry, am pretty much computer savvy and enjoy tinkering with my phone when time allows. It seems to me some of the members here have far much too time on their hands and spend it endlessly trawling to give someone a mauling.
I wonder how many useful posts these people ever actually put in to the forum.
Now I agree that if you have the time to read all the relevant threads, do the searches etc you have a good chance of finding an answer. But there comes a time when some of these posts are just not feasible anymore. Dutty's rom post for 6.1 is a major epic these days and I for one don't have the time or inclination to scroll through all this especially when a whole load of it is just crap from people increasing their post count.
So my point is let people ask, especially the n00bs who probably don't realise the lambasting they're going to get. If you know the answer then reply, if you don't then shut up. That way the posts will get shorter and the idiots will get bored quicker.
Let people say whatever they like!
All,
I've been a member of this forum for a few months now and am sincerely grateful for all the useful advice and help I have received. My own posting count is relatively low because I only try to help if I have something useful to say.
The one overriding post I tend to see these days is the idiot who likes bash the other users for not reading threads, doing searches etc. Now I actually have a full time job in the I.T industry, am pretty much computer savvy and enjoy tinkering with my phone when time allows. It seems to me some of the members here have far much too time on their hands and spend it endlessly trawling to give someone a mauling.
I wonder how many useful posts these people ever actually put in to the forum.
Now I agree that if you have the time to read all the relevant threads, do the searches etc you have a good chance of finding an answer. But there comes a time when some of these posts are just not feasible anymore. Dutty's rom post for 6.1 is a major epic these days and I for one don't have the time or inclination to scroll through all this especially when a whole load of it is just crap from people increasing their post count.
So my point is let people ask, especially the n00bs who probably don't realise the lambasting they're going to get. If you know the answer then reply, if you don't then shut up. That way the posts will get shorter and the idiots will get bored quicker.
Well said. This is the worst forum I've ever come across for noob bashing. It's a shame because there are a lot of helpful people here.
The odd post I have had to make asking for help took me 30 mins or so of searching just to make sure it's not been covered before, for fear of getting jumped on by the resident 'net police'.
By the way, if this subject has come up before, I don't care because I didn't search so there!
I agree. Isn't a forum supossed to be just that, a place where people can come to ask questions even though there is a wiki, search, etc?
HEAR HEAR!!!
j1ngles said:
All,
I've been a member of this forum for a few months now and am sincerely grateful for all the useful advice and help I have received. My own posting count is relatively low because I only try to help if I have something useful to say.
The one overriding post I tend to see these days is the idiot who likes bash the other users for not reading threads, doing searches etc. Now I actually have a full time job in the I.T industry, am pretty much computer savvy and enjoy tinkering with my phone when time allows. It seems to me some of the members here have far much too time on their hands and spend it endlessly trawling to give someone a mauling.
I wonder how many useful posts these people ever actually put in to the forum.
Now I agree that if you have the time to read all the relevant threads, do the searches etc you have a good chance of finding an answer. But there comes a time when some of these posts are just not feasible anymore. Dutty's rom post for 6.1 is a major epic these days and I for one don't have the time or inclination to scroll through all this especially when a whole load of it is just crap from people increasing their post count.
So my point is let people ask, especially the n00bs who probably don't realise the lambasting they're going to get. If you know the answer then reply, if you don't then shut up. That way the posts will get shorter and the idiots will get bored quicker.
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Well put j1ngles!!! I never had this newbie bashing in the Wizard forum, which I joined almost 2 years ago.
This is the worst forum for n00b bashing this side of the whirlpool galaxy!!!
I agree 110%. If people ask "stupid" questions and someone feels obliged to assist, then by all means do so or shut up.
I have helped n00bs by providing certain cabs etc and then I have been criticised!!!
Good point here - I do believe that one of the mods has actually issued a warning against n00b bashing, so that's a step in the right direction.
Totally agree with you.
The search function is useful, but if you are new how are you supposed to know the exact techie term to make the search results useful?! Who knows how many budding chefs etc we are turning away becuz someone jumps on their back within 2 minutes giving them a hard time?
We're all here becuz we want to learn, and develop our devices into something different and better, so lets try to support each other and be gentle on the new guys.
Well said!
j1ngles said:
All,
I've been a member of this forum for a few months now and am sincerely grateful for all the useful advice and help I have received. My own posting count is relatively low because I only try to help if I have something useful to say.
The one overriding post I tend to see these days is the idiot who likes bash the other users for not reading threads, doing searches etc. Now I actually have a full time job in the I.T industry, am pretty much computer savvy and enjoy tinkering with my phone when time allows. It seems to me some of the members here have far much too time on their hands and spend it endlessly trawling to give someone a mauling.
I wonder how many useful posts these people ever actually put in to the forum.
Now I agree that if you have the time to read all the relevant threads, do the searches etc you have a good chance of finding an answer. But there comes a time when some of these posts are just not feasible anymore. Dutty's rom post for 6.1 is a major epic these days and I for one don't have the time or inclination to scroll through all this especially when a whole load of it is just crap from people increasing their post count.
So my point is let people ask, especially the n00bs who probably don't realise the lambasting they're going to get. If you know the answer then reply, if you don't then shut up. That way the posts will get shorter and the idiots will get bored quicker.
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I fully agree with you j1ngles!!!
You learn, search terms, how to search and even better (and something difficult for me) patience... after all if you are going to spend the money on a serious piece of equipment (even if you get it as part of a deal with a phone company you brick it you will have to pay) you better learn properly how to do whatever it is you want to do... I am about as far from computer savvy as you can get but I have learned what terms to use in a search, how to use the search and even better how to make notes on what I read and where I get up to so I can refer to a thread and pick up where I left off... I too dont have much time (especially lately) but I still take my time and read, search etc before asking the SAME question for the 2359834098345054390843986th time... on the same page...
A good point very well made.
If you don't want to help someone out fine , just don't post a reply. Better that than to ridicule someone and put them off posting again.
I have +170 posts and still feel like a noob. if search does not give me the answer i am looking for after 5 attempts (or 30 minutes of crawling through plenty of mails) i do ask help. And i also got replies not being helpfull.
This is not about noob bashing
Shadowdh said:
You learn, search terms, how to search and even better (and something difficult for me) patience... after all if you are going to spend the money on a serious piece of equipment (even if you get it as part of a deal with a phone company you brick it you will have to pay) you better learn properly how to do whatever it is you want to do... I am about as far from computer savvy as you can get but I have learned what terms to use in a search, how to use the search and even better how to make notes on what I read and where I get up to so I can refer to a thread and pick up where I left off... I too dont have much time (especially lately) but I still take my time and read, search etc before asking the SAME question for the 2359834098345054390843986th time... on the same page...
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I have done the same as have many people i'm sure. The question is, if someone askes something that you know the answer to (either from working it out, or reading up) do you give them the answer and point out where you got it from, or do you hold back?
We need to teach people to learn by encouragement, not by attitude.
ghostie said:
I have done the same as have many people i'm sure. The question is, if someone askes something that you know the answer to (either from working it out, or reading up) do you give them the answer and point out where you got it from, or do you hold back?
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I've always favoured giving someone the link, while telling them they could (and should) have searched for it themselves. I also agree with some flaming on obvious or very frequent questions - provided the link is there and the flaming is amusing and light-hearted.
Just my opinion.
I made a similar point a few months back. Another problem is that noobies don't always know what to search for...Because they are noobies...
j1ngles said:
All,
So my point is let people ask, especially the n00bs who probably don't realise the lambasting they're going to get. If you know the answer then reply, if you don't then shut up. That way the posts will get shorter and the idiots will get bored quicker.
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Click to collapse
I couldnt agree more with this. I really dont see why an experienced senior member, for example, has to flame a noobie for asking a silly easy question. Either you have a few words to say and shread some light into matter, or just skip the thread, go read something else. I know some of them are ignorant, but the best treatment is to ignore questions like that. This way they will have to search for themselves, if they get no answer.
But to tell them: read wiki, search, use google is simply too useless, will not help anybody.
I understand both sides, but you have to see that once you see a trillion questions asking the same thing, then you get a little frustrated.
I dont think XDA is a service. XDA is a community where people have to do their part, and if you dont do your part, then your not contributing to the community. And yes, searching is contribution. You are gorging yourself in PDA knoweldge and then could help someone else.
However, if you feel that people here at XDA are here to help you becuase this is their job, then your wrong. I'm not saying you, or anyone else does feel this way, but my point is that XDA is not a service, its a community.
I've found the dutty thread to be useless now because of so many questions asking the same thing. There is an onslaught of many questions that were already answered and its hard to find the specific problem your having. I still LOOK, and I still search...and I find the answer.
Though I do agree, being a ***** never did anything for anyone. So the best anyone can do is point them in the right direction until they get it themselves.
If everyone post any question they want to ask without searching, we'll probably end up having 25k pages in every thread. The whole point of searching is to keep forums tidy, so that information can be found faster.
Have you ever tried to find some specific thingsin big DUMP??? (Not a rom dump)
Very True
I agree with the starter of the topic. So you say using search keeps the Forum tidy. I don't agree. The Forum is already full of huge topics and nobody has to have the patience to go through them. HOWEVER, I personally SEARCHED A LOT for some stuff and I usually FOUND what I was looking for. So I admit that it's ok to search! ::- ). But a bit more tolerance for those who don't have this time would be great.
Maybe I just bought a phone and I'm uber-enthusiastic about it and don't want to search 2 days for something. Common, a bit of understanding never killed anybody ::- ). And if there are a lot of topics about a certain problem, they'll show up faster in search, so it's ok. Common, a bit more text never killed a database.
This is a fair point and I would agree - generally speaking a policy of ignore it and move on is best.
However, I have seen instances of people who ought to know better blundering into a thread and asking a question to which they would get an answer if they could just be bothered to look a handful of posts further up.
Not all newcomers are sweet innocents and not all stupid questions are asked by newcomers.
My personal annoyance list is topped by those that ask a tough or poorly defined question and then start stamping their tiny feet if they don't get an answer back within seconds of posting - some people here seem to think this is a formal support forum for 'XDA products', (whatever those might be) and so start *****ing about bugs, lack of response, etc.
Did you ever stop to think that all the people with your point of view are the reason for the search function not being as productive as other sites? When someone doesn't search and just creates another redundant thread, they are directly responsible for polluting the search results.
As I have said before, I will no longer be bashing n00bs who fail to search before posting. Instead, I will transpose their question into Google, and reply back with a link to the search result they need to read. There is one exception to this; people who create 2 or more new threads (within 24 hours) asking the exact same question. That is just rude.
I am seeing more and more dis-respectful replies to newbies then ever before, and it is getting old, all this does is run off potential new comers to this site who might be the next great cooker and spreads a not so good rep about this site
at the same time I see some mods have be respectful to others in there sigs. I think this should become policy across the forum period and those that are rude and disrespectful in their reply should get a vacation to let them know this is not to be tolerated IMO
This site is about growth and interest in these toys of ours, not about ripping newbies who may ask a question that maybe have been asked many times over, so what, why not just post a link to the search and to the Wiki and say welcome to the forums , instead of bashing them? It would leave a better taste in the newbs mouths and they might become a contributor in the future.
Also think about this, just how many of you cookers have something in your sig asking for a cup of coffee ? or Donate to XDA or Donations graciously accepted. Well if a newbie is made to feel welcomed and comfortable here , They are more then likely going leave you a little something.
Me , If I notice a rom cooker being rude, they are not very likely going to get anything from me even if they had something great and useful.
I just replied to a newbie that asked a simple question, but not before someone posted a B.S. reply, I instead answered it with something useful and promoted the search engine at the same time
This did two things, first the newbies was made to feel welcomed and also if someone was to search the same question, they would find a reasonable answer.
BTW B.S. replies just screw up the search results forcing newbies just ask questions instead of finding answers.
Flame away if you want or become part of the solution .
i agree,
there are times that newbs do need help. some of those who i have pointed in the right direction have tried to search, but either search the wrong thing or don't know what they are looking for.
it does work two ways and some of the mods and senior members are to be commended for their help. ( i can think of about 10 folks who go out of their way to help as many as possible and never rip a newb)
those who are helped are more likely to help others.
I find it often takes longer to explain how to use the search facility properly to yield useable results than it takes to answer the specific question, but there is no excuse for rude replies, if you don't like what you see simply move on rather than posting an offensive reply - Mike
Here is a good example of what I am talking about,
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=403829
This reply by kspirit did nothing to help this user ,
No , nothing like that runs on the tilt..
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.
its these kind of responses that need to be curtailed.
Even though a mod did respond , he/she did nothing regarding the above users response. All this does is give the impression that this behavior is condoned .
I am not knocking the Moderator (I do find him to be very helpful) but they do have a huge influence on how others act on this site, and by not informing this above user that these types of replies are not helpful or uncalled for) they are giving the impression that it is okay.
Mods & Admin , what do you all think ? Am I off track here ?
Just wanted to add this:
If the mods were to take the time to edit the titles like this one " New AT&T Tilt Phone - Help" to something like this...Will software like HTC Home, Mobile Shell, Pocket Informant work on both the tilt & 8525?. or something along those lines.....
This would help with search engine results, Yea its abit more work for the mods to do this but it will help greatly in producing more viable search results .
Just a thought...
i think what drives some ppl to be rude is the fact that the ppl who decided to ask a repeated question were told that they have to search for an existing answer before asking a new question, and that they decided not to do that and just post a new one, i think both are mistaken here, and the one with the question brought it on themselves. i really don't like rude answers, but!
AthenaLod said:
i think what drives some ppl to be rude is the fact that the ppl who decided to ask a repeated question were told that they have to search for an existing answer before asking a new question, and that they decided not to do that and just post a new one, i think both are mistaken here, and the one with the question brought it on themselves. i really don't like rude answers, but!
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Ahh do you search much ? this user did not ask the same question twice....
and there is no excuse for being rude, and so what if they had ? a simple link to the Wiki would be a very easy way to deal with it, and a welcome to the forum would get much better results.
why would I want to donate or promote this site in any form if all I got is ripped on ? hmmm
Like Mike has posted,
if you don't like what you see simply move on rather than posting an offensive reply - Mike
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This would yield better results .
by "told" i meant that for example in the kaiser forum, the only sticky there is titled "**BEFORE YOU POST START HERE**" and it says "Read and search before posting. Reply to an existing thread before creating a new thread. Redundant threads will be closed." so, if somebody decides that he/she wants to just ignore this, he/she brought it on themselves. i don't do bad language, or encourage it, but, sometimes some ppl can be really so lazy to even do a search
Just my personal opinion....
I've only been here for a few months and I have to say, I've seen more useless threads then ever before! Now, don't get me wrong, I love to help, and do all the time, but at some point, you see a junior on their first post asking something like, "How do I uninstall an app?", or "How do I turn the phone off?" So at some point of seeing these threads, someone will be a bit frustrated and point them to the search and wiki fetaures located on the top bar instead of a full answer. I fully understand your point, but like I said, these members who join just for a simple answer then after 10 minutes ask why nobody is helping can aggrivate all of us users who come here for new information on a daily basis. Especially when they start a thread, get an answer, and never return.
Look here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=404065
Now in this post, this user was looking for a specific dialer, and of course it's impoosible to search for an image, but I did help. Actually at first, I was a bit mad at the fact they posted the image, but didn't ask in the thread they got the photo from, then realized the image wasn't from here. But after I saw that, I tried to give some info on it, but I can't spend time looking for something they want, but I can help, so I did.
I think I'm done typing , but I'll say this, when I first joined, actually being my first forum, I had a bunch of questions, I didn't feel a need to post a thread for one simple question. I actually spent about a week after work searching and going through a bunch of pages looking for info, and I found a lot!
Also, a suggestion, I asked this in the SPAM thread, how about putting a block on junior users poting new threads? It would prevent SPAM and these simple question threads.
It seems that mods and Admin are strangely silent regarding this topic......wonder why..
I don't think they aren't responding for any unknown reason, this topic has been discussed so many times, there is no interest in tackling this issue anymore.
Just wanted to say that F2504x4 put the problem very articulately and I totally agree with him. Pointing out a mistake (such as not using the search facility) need not be done in a rude and dismissive way.
I will just remind us that we were all noobs one day, and also that some people are more technically minded than others. What may seem to us a simple and trivial question is obviously not so for the one asking it.
TheChampJT said:
I don't think they aren't responding for any unknown reason, this topic has been discussed so many times, there is no interest in tackling this issue anymore.
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They should be taking a interest in this.....if they are becoming numb to it , then they need to take a hard look at why they are a moderator, Sorry if this sounds harsh . Moderators are the leaders that others look to for guidance, they help set the tone of the community.
This is a great site, with a lot of great talent , but it will not take long before it becomes over shadowed with a darker side.
Continued growth is key to any forum and community , and running off new comers with not help with that.
Fact is you will always have newbs ignoring stickies and search engines , nothing will ever change that.
All this site can do is maintain a positive atmosphere , and continuing education to those that join .
So i ask again , what say you Admin and mods ?
Thank you pedmond for this , very well put.
I will just remind us that we were all noobs one day, and also that some people are more technically minded than others. What may seem to us a simple and trivial question is obviously not so for the one asking it.
Yesterday 07:49 PM
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F2504x4 said:
It seems that mods and Admin are strangely silent regarding this topic......wonder why..
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Don't really think the issue is with Mods and Admin. I do see a lot of evidence of them cleaning up threads if they're getting out of hand and sorting out users that are really getting obnoxious. But the problem seems to be that certain people feel their post count is a license to have a go at the newer members. And certain new members seem to think the world is their private helpdesk and that the purpose of these forums is to instantly deal with their every need. Well in any large group you'll always get those that are unpleasant to deal with - that's life. There are just as many, maybe more, who're a real pleasure to deal with and try their best to help. I think if new members read the forum rules and were prepared to lurk a bit before posting, then they'd quickly get an idea of what types of questions to ask and how to get help.
So while I personally totally agree with your views on decent behaviour etc I don't think its an issue to get wound up about. If you can filter out some of the fluff, this site is still the best resource for our phones by far.
(But I've only got about 80 posts, so maybe I'll change my mind when I hit 100! )
What are the Mods/Admins supposed to do? Ban every user?
I often tell people to search for things when they have one post, and have a very stupid question with a blatant answer. When they do that, they don't deserve to be treated with a great amount of respect.
When someone who has evidently searched around, and has clearly tried to solve their own problems and then as a last resort asks for help, I'm far more inclined to be generous with my time, and try to help them.
Some people are obnoxious and post without searching at all, but the admins/mods can't go and ban people because they were once an idiot.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2360488&posted=1#post2360488
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
l3v5y said:
What are the Mods/Admins supposed to do? Ban every user?
I often tell people to search for things when they have one post, and have a very stupid question with a blatant answer. When they do that, they don't deserve to be treated with a great amount of respect.
When someone who has evidently searched around, and has clearly tried to solve their own problems and then as a last resort asks for help, I'm far more inclined to be generous with my time, and try to help them.
Some people are obnoxious and post without searching at all, but the admins/mods can't go and ban people because they were once an idiot.
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Wow what a way to start off a reply Ban every user ?
I think you should re read what has been stated, I did not hint or say ban anyone..but if that is what it takes to effect a change then maybe it should be considered but it should be directed at those that are creating a un-friendly and less then helpful place . IMO
First off I have no problem with someone being told to search, its how they are being told and some of the un-called for comments that are becoming more and more common and is the real problem, go read the example I posted earlier.
what do you consider a worthy response in this thread ? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=404065
As to the stupid questions , Idiots and respect, ahhh I thinks its way past beer thirty .
swanlm said:
. But the problem seems to be that certain people feel their post count is a license to have a go at the newer members.
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while I agree with a lot of what you said, In the example I gave , its even the low post count members that are posting these less then helpful responses, so that is telling me that this a is trend that is spreading and the bad thing is that a mod even replied in the thread, and did nothing about the response given, they only quoted part of my reply about searching.... ( I am still wondering why...)
Btw I only started this thread after a lot of reading and seeing this trend become more common place.
It's not about being against Noobies...
Too many come here from other sites for the wrong reason. Many of the questions that get jumped, closed & merged really should have been asked at the AT&T or other carrier support forums.
I'll quote this post of mine:
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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Good post and very worthwhile reading kyphur,
and I understand clearly why it was written.
Just be aware of this trend and its long term results...
Btw I have walked in Mod shoes , and understand the inner workings of forums, and it is no easy task managing a community.
Thanks for posting that.
We have all either seen or experienced someone telling us or someone else (especially noobs) to use the *** search engine. The problem is that these boards are immense and you have to know the specific words or tags other people are using to describe the issue you are researching or you will end up with no results or far too many. (And results don't necessarily mean solutions.) This is even more complicated by the fact that this forum includes members from across the world who have differing native languages and when translated into English, they create many different varieties of expression.
Bottom line: let's be nice, because we all were once noobs and we all know how hard it is sometimes to find answers to specific problems.
The reason for xda-developers' success is the fact that we have a good group of people here who are generous enthusiasts sharing their expertise. Cluttering the boards with "Use the *** search" not only makes it that much harder to find information, it also creates ill will that will eventually cause our entire community to suffer.
If you don't believe me ask the folks at mytreo.net. It used to be a thriving community but arrogant sods who felt they owned the place started ragging on noobs and developing their own little cliques. The mods got in on it too and pretty soon mtdn was down the toilet.
A community is defined by how it treats its lowliest members: Save the noob, save the forum.
well what do you need help with?
TC,
I honestly believe that a lot of things can be found through the search engine. I've solved a lot of my own problems simply by looking around and doing my own searching. If cookers can keep spending their own free time releasing ROMs and stuff, I see no reason why newbies can not spend just as much time using the search engine thoroughly in order to try different keywords.
The search engine is messed up most of the time, but it also doesn't take too much time to try going through the pages.
Cheers.
Well if anyone knows about a thread that contains the solution why not point it out? However I won't search in the place of the other guy.
I say if you don't know how to research what you want to do with your phone, then don't even bother messing with it
I have to say that using the search engine is as longs effective and possible if you know the right englich term for what you are searching. For example, I'm german, I sometimes just don't know how something is called in english or even might be called in bad english (not good oxford english is the most spoken language, it's more a bad english with many "special" terms). So how are certain things called? This is a huge problem for noobs and esp. if you are a non english speaking noob. Often you can't translate the terms directly from your language into another.
"these boards are immense" that is the key point
... AMEN! We were all noobs at EVERYTHING at one time or other; just like in my job - it's very easy to look down on the new Graduate nurses shaking in their shiny white Crocs, and laugh at how "stupid" they all seem --- until we sit down & realise that "I was like that once...". I'm not saying that noobs can be brain-dead and suck off of those who are more experienced -- they all still need to possess some basic knowledge and search skills -- but by the same token, we shouldn't feel we need to give them all the "RTFM" kind of line, either.
The board are immense, and though I don't consider myself much of a noob anymore (second HTC device, 5th WinMo device in 7 years, background in IT prior to nursing), for me I can fairly much figure out that if I wanna search on stuff for my brand-new HTC Pure, I should be trying out AT&T, ATT, HTC, Pure, Topaz, Warbird... need I go on? But not everyone out there thinks that specifically as a noob, but given time & experience, I think we all learn what works & what doesn't.
What SHOULD work is that even if a question was answered in the past, we still should be gracious enough to understand that not everyone new is going to think to ask the question in the same way that helped it get answered the first time round.
Just like in many fields of life, I think it's true in XDA as well -- no matter how smart you are, and how much you know -- there's always someone who knows more than you about something... and everyone will be better off by sharing the knowledge, even if you've shared it before.
- BereanPK
although i agree we all ask stupid questions and the majority of new users dont search but the reasoning behind us asking them to search is for the following reasons
1, this site isn't for tech support, the one forum dedicated to helping is the q&a forum and this does the job very nicely, so all new members who randomly plaster questions across the entire site will be informed of this
2, sometimes if a person asks a question and someone is kind enough to help the asker then expects a service, this can late to a temper if the question wasnt answered in 3 seconds, people using size 10 fonts with big red letters just in case we missed it the first time. this will then lead to flaming from older members and then the moderator team having to hand out warnings and bans. Also if someone does help the asker then sometimes the asker starts harassing the helper to the point of creepiness.
3, one of the rules and general forms of forum etiquette is to search before starting a new thread. if its obvious that someone hasn't followed the rules and they are posting up a million questions a day in every forum they will have to be dealt with.
sorry for the rant
im just letting you know why we ask you to search and also know that the mods here are a TEAM and non development cliques are frowned upon
... another amen for the MOD...
I see both points here. Noobs do need to learn how to search -- that's just part of the game with any forum, not just this one. And I've seen it myself where people have asked a question that more experienced people think is a no-brainer, asked-and-answered, then the asker expects that kind of relationship will simply continue without ever expecting the asker to gain knowledge him/herself, do some trial-and-error (like no doubt we all have), learn what works & what doesn't, and become experienced.
Those kind of sponges may, perhaps, deserve a bit of the 10pt red-boldfaced discussion on occasion.
Like you say, this forum is for much more than just "how do I do the freakin' obvious with my phone" -- HTC has enough Q&A on their support site for those kinds of questions.
But I think also hopefully more prevalent are those who need a question answered on a phone they just got, or want to tweak out, and search, find an answer, feel thankful enough to publicly comment and contribute... maybe ask a question if search first reveals not enough info, feel thankful enough to publicly comment and contribute... either way, we get a community member, not just a sponge.
I have always enjoyed coming here (though sadly not previously posting as much as I could or should have when I know something and/or have to contribute) and learning, trying, experimenting, and gaining knowledge. Hopefully everyone who comes here for the first time to find an answer to a question will feel the same way, and some hopefully catch the development bug and make things that others can benefit from.
I only wish I was more of a programmer than I used to be (I left an 18-year IT career behind to be a nurse -- silly me).
~ BereanPK
Noobs, I am far from a noob. I may have recently joined this forum, but I have been lurking it for over 2 years. I am also not a noob to the smartphone and Windows Mobile world. I have plenty of credit on Smartappsworld and Hellomotoq forums. 90% of my posts have been to helping other users. It doesn't matter if that is the 20th time I have answered the same question, I still go ahead and answer it anyway if someone else has not chimed in. If I know the answer to something, it takes very little effort to stop and type out an answer. Do I ever get frustrated or annoyed having to answer something that could be easily searched? Yes, but that still doesn't mean I have to go and tell then the rules.. or just going out and saying " There is a forum Search tool, use it" etc. Helping other users is priority number one. Being negative and rude towards other members is NOT on my list, nor do I even appreciate members who act that way.
When it comes down to finding a solution to my own problems, SEARCH is the first thing I do, always. I try to get as much info as I can possible relating to the issue at hand. And if I can't find a specific answer, or I find unrelated results, or .. I find an answer but run into more issues and my search becomes frutlstrating.. then I post a thread and hope someone knows something. Do I ever feel impatient waiting for an answer to something? Sometimes yeah, but I don't go and start posting negative comments because someone hasn't posted a response yet. It's all about timing, and where it was posted, and then if someones in a good mood. Regardless, I still wait for an answer, or if I can, try and provide more info in the thread.
I know about searching here at XDA. Sometimes finding ANY sort of related results can be a royal pain in the ass! Yeah, you know how it goes, you search for something using keywords related to your device and problem, and 60% of the results you get back are those blasted device ROM threads. No I'm not mad at the ROM threads, I get upset because they have absolutely nothing to do with what I am searching. Eventually I get tired of flicking down multiple pages and reading threads that didn't have any relevent info. I would use search more if I could get more productive results. Trying various search terms is always the way I work. I also found that using the " - " symbol is helpful.
Maybe a "Thank You " button should be added here.
There is no automatic weather update in manila 2.5.19211... I have ticked the "download data automatically". I have also selected every one hr. but updates seems to happen only when manually going to the weather page or tab. I am using udk Leo R7.
joe mboule said:
There is no automatic weather update in manila 2.5.19211... I have ticked the "download data automatically". I have also selected every one hr. but updates seems to happen only when manually going to the weather page or tab. I am using udk Leo R7.
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Then ASK in the thread of udK. Don't open new threads for simple things like this.
Post in right thread.
Don't open new threads if not really necessary.
Read and use the search-button.
And don't forget Google...
koen-ronse said:
Then ASK in the thread of udK. Don't open new threads for simple things like this.
Post in right thread.
Don't open new threads if not really necessary.
Read and use the search-button.
And don't forget Google...
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Hi. Ok, i have recently seen various post where people are asking for help about a partiqular issue. Yet all the the time, u have been either rude or cockey and totally demotivating.
I can understand your fustration that some people may have not used the search function,have posted in the wrong thread, or ultimatley have started a new thread, but i feel that is not the way to respond. y dont u just point them to the right direction in a more friendly way?
we were all a newbie once...(well i still am Lol!!)
I hope u dont take it the wrong way, but i personally wouldnt like it if someone responded like that. As a senior member, we look up to you guys to try and help us and or point us to the right direction.
rumz82 said:
Hi. Ok, i have recently seen various post where people are asking for help about a partiqular issue. Yet all the the time, u have been either rude or cockey and totally demotivating.
I can understand your fustration that some people may have not used the search function,have posted in the wrong thread, or ultimatley have started a new thread, but i feel that is not the way to respond. y dont u just point them to the right direction in a more friendly way?
we were all a newbie once...(well i still am Lol!!)
I hope u dont take it the wrong way, but i personally wouldnt like it if someone responded like that. As a senior member, we look up to you guys to try and help us and or point us to the right direction.
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Thanks to all who don't use search and open directly a new thread, it is more difficult to find something for the searching people (like me), because you get a huge number of hits with irrelevant threads... Get it?
I don't want to demotivate but motivate to search and read. When you give directly a helping link, they stay doing it.
Seeing every time new opened threads from newbies with every time the same silly questions, that's very demotivating for us, the people who supposed to help you. And that's what you'r looking for here, somebody who wants to help you. We don't have to do it, but we like it because this forum is a bit like a hobby for us.
So, we can shoose, saying nothing more or trying to teach you how a forum works. I prefer the last thing... And if somebody like me (the bad one) point you in the right direction, it's not for beeing bad, but for getting a better usefull forum. You can see in my posthistory that it's really multiple times a day that new useless threads were opened...
Normally it's a work for the moderators, but they also have a live and can not be always here, because also them are doing this as a hobby. Be all glad that I don't be one of them or it was the same comment and also closing the thread directly.
I take some time for this post because I can quote him for futur use when I get comments again from not-readers, not-searchers, new-post-openers and silly-question-posters...
If you have really followed my posts, you know that I help a lot when the rules are followed a bit...
And do you know why I can help others? Because I read a lot...
I am using UDK R7, I get the updates,.. have you tried a hard reset see if that sorts it out...
Sorry that i posted to wrong section. I thought it was a problem with Sense and not the rom, reason being my posting to this section. I think hard resetting would be extreme. Will search and see if anything comes up.
koen-ronse said:
Thanks to all who don't use search and open directly a new thread, it is more difficult to find something for the searching people (like me), because you get a huge number of hits with irrelevant threads... Get it?
I don't want to demotivate but motivate to search and read. When you give directly a helping link, they stay doing it.
Seeing every time new opened threads from newbies with every time the same silly questions, that's very demotivating for us, the people who supposed to help you. And that's what you'r looking for here, somebody who wants to help you. We don't have to do it, but we like it because this forum is a bit like a hobby for us.
So, we can shoose, saying nothing more or trying to teach you how a forum works. I prefer the last thing... And if somebody like me (the bad one) point you in the right direction, it's not for beeing bad, but for getting a better usefull forum. You can see in my posthistory that it's really multiple times a day that new useless threads were opened...
Normally it's a work for the moderators, but they also have a live and can not be always here, because also them are doing this as a hobby. Be all glad that I don't be one of them or it was the same comment and also closing the thread directly.
I take some time for this post because I can quote him for futur use when I get comments again from not-readers, not-searchers, new-post-openers and silly-question-posters...
If you have really followed my posts, you know that I help a lot when the rules are followed a bit...
And do you know why I can help others? Because I read a lot...
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I understand bro, all i was getting at was just try to put it in a nicer way,thats all. regarding "silly" posts or questions, yeah, i have seen some VERY silly questions and i think to myself "the human stupidity IS infinite"! and i understand that it is coz of those posts/questions, ppl can get fustrated as it does clutter the forum.
I know you have helped alot of ppl, continue to do so.
i admit i personally havnt had alot of input in the forum as i still am a newbie, and anytime i have thought of answering a question, i fall back thinking if i am giving the right or wrong answer as i dont wanna make a fool out of myelf just being honest bro.