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How well do you know your fifty shades of grey? Rate this thread to express how good the Huawei Nexus 6P's display contrast is. A higher rating indicates that black is true black, rather than a very dark gray.
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!
Great contrast thanks to AMOLED
It gets backly black as if the screen was off exactly like other OLED displays I've used(S4, Note 4, S6)
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
AMOLED
/thread
Actually, in real world usage blacks are pretty poor/washed out, unless you're in a dark room. When the screen is off you can see the surface of the screen is much lighter than, say, Samsung AMOLED phones. It's more like greenish dark grey rather than black so even if the actual pixels are turned off, it doesn't look black. It's even worse than many LCDs. I have no idea how come no one has mentioned this in any reviews, or at least I've never seen it.
Jockson said:
Actually, in real world usage blacks are pretty poor/washed out, unless you're in a dark room. When the screen is off you can see the surface of the screen is much lighter than, say, Samsung AMOLED phones. It's more like greenish dark grey rather than black so even if the actual pixels are turned off, it doesn't look black. It's even worse than many LCDs. I have no idea how come no one has mentioned this in any reviews, or at least I've never seen it.
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ROFL are you hallucinating? My 6P's blacks are pitch black. The way I can tell... The edge of the screen, when black, is equal to the blacks on the top and bottom of the screen.
Eric214 said:
ROFL are you hallucinating? My 6P's blacks are pitch black. The way I can tell... The edge of the screen, when black, is equal to the blacks on the top and bottom of the screen.
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Except that is not true. Take a look at the screen when it is turned off. The surrounding bezel is truly black but the screen itself is greenish gray, meaning blacks are not getting darker than that. Then look at a Samsung AMOLED phone and you'll see it's the other way around, it's the screen itself that is as black as it gets. Samsung obviously uses different filters/polarizers which result in much better blacks in anything other than total darkness. I just compared my 6P to an old Galaxy S2 and again, the S2 has much deeper blacks thanks to the actual surface being much darker. You only really get true pitch black when you're using the 6P in a dark room. Otherwise blacks are pretty much on par with your average LCD, which is a poor result for an AMOLED screen.
Jockson said:
Except that is not true. Take a look at the screen when it is turned off. The surrounding bezel is truly black but the screen itself is greenish gray, meaning blacks are not getting darker than that. Then look at a Samsung AMOLED phone and you'll see it's the other way around, it's the screen itself that is as black as it gets. Samsung obviously uses different filters/polarizers which result in much better blacks in anything other than total darkness. I just compared my 6P to an old Galaxy S2 and again, the S2 has much deeper blacks thanks to the actual surface being much darker. You only really get true pitch black when you're using the 6P in a dark room. Otherwise blacks are pretty much on par with your average LCD, which is a poor result for an AMOLED screen.
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Well, it's true on mine. Maybe your panel is different then mine. I just compared my 6P to my Note 4 and they look the same. Which makes sense since Huawei buys there panels from Samsung so they are the same panels. Only difference is Samsung panels get a few nits brighter.
Guess we can agree to disagree. Especially since you can get different quality panels from phone to phone. Just like that can happen on Samsung phones.
Oh and I forgot, there are no filters to make blacks, black as you don't filter light on Amoled screens. The pixel just doesn't receive power so the pixel is off, not filtered. What you are referring to is an LCD panel, not Amoled
Eric214 said:
Well, it's true on mine. Maybe your panel is different then mine. I just compared my 6P to my Note 4 and they look the same. Which makes sense since Huawei buys there panels from Samsung so they are the same panels. Only difference is Samsung panels get a few nits brighter.
Guess we can agree to disagree. Especially since you can get different quality panels from phone to phone. Just like that can happen on Samsung phones.
Oh and I forgot, there are no filters to make blacks, black as you don't filter light on Amoled screens. The pixel just doesn't receive power so the pixel is off, not filtered. What you are referring to is an LCD panel, not Amoled
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It has nothing to do with pixels being off. Look here https://technology.ihs.com/509943/w...izer-technology-trend-of-amoled-use-polarizer
Remember the first Nexus, the Nexus One? It also had an amoled screen, with terrible blacks. How was that possible? Because the actual surface of the screen was so reflective, if there was even a little bit of ambient light reaching the screen it would completely wash it out. Whether the actual pixels emitted any light was irrelevant in any other conditions other than complete darkness.
There are no different panels being used on the 6P. Just take the phone out of a dark room and you'll see the screen is clearly not as black as the bezels when it's turned off. I have so far compared it to the following phones: Note 5, S6 edge, S4, S4 mini, S2. All of them have deeper blacks than the 6P due to their surface being darker. It may be a Samsung panel but it's not the same one as used by Samsung on their devices. Even Anandtech have mentioned it uses different lamination which actually provides slightly better viewing angles. What's strange is that the more off angle you go, the lighter the surface appears. Can be seen in this video comparing the 6P to the 5X http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXtDCBSKQV8&t=3m44s Obviously it's not as bad when looking head on but it's still pretty poor for an amoled screen.
Jockson said:
It has nothing to do with pixels being off. Look here https://technology.ihs.com/509943/w...izer-technology-trend-of-amoled-use-polarizer
Remember the first Nexus, the Nexus One? It also had an amoled screen, with terrible blacks. How was that possible? Because the actual surface of the screen was so reflective, if there was even a little bit of ambient light reaching the screen it would completely wash it out. Whether the actual pixels emitted any light was irrelevant in any other conditions other than complete darkness.
There are no different panels being used on the 6P. Just take the phone out of a dark room and you'll see the screen is clearly not as black as the bezels when it's turned off. I have so far compared it to the following phones: Note 5, S6 edge, S4, S4 mini, S2. All of them have deeper blacks than the 6P due to their surface being darker. It may be a Samsung panel but it's not the same one as used by Samsung on their devices. Even Anandtech have mentioned it uses different lamination which actually provides slightly better viewing angles. What's strange is that the more off angle you go, the lighter the surface appears. Can be seen in this video comparing the 6P to the 5X http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXtDCBSKQV8&t=3m44s Obviously it's not as bad when looking head on but it's still pretty poor for an amoled screen.
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Hmmm sorry man mine is just black. Agree to disagree. Can't say any better then that. I'm moving on. If your not happy with the phone for that reason, sell it and get a Samsung.
Well, it was nice discussing with you but one may as well say "mine is pink, agree to disagree". It doesn't really mean anything as far as facts go.
I just took out my old Nexus 5 and surprise surprise, it absolutely kills the 6P when it comes to black depth in well lit conditions. The surface of the screen simply reflects way too much light.
Hahaha so many people here producing disinformations...
AMOLED, especiall Super, has 0.098% of light coming thru when fully black but on. That's the blackest as it gets.
6P, Note's, S6, S7. have the BEST SCREENS around. And by far.
Turn on sRGB mode in developer options if u want, a bit washed, but 100% accurate colors. What u see is what u get on print. But why would u use that, unless you're a professional photographer like me.
mihovil13 said:
AMOLED, especiall Super, has 0.098% of light coming thru when fully black but on. That's the blackest as it gets.
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Coming through what? Screen surface reflectiveness is what matters the most when it comes to black depth outdoors. LCDs have extremely high MEASURED black levels in comparison to AMOLED but you can't see that outside because of ambient light. Case in point, the 6P looks worse than most good LCDs outside. It's like when people claim plasma TVs have amazing blacks but forget to mention that is only true in low light conditions.
Jockson I understand and agree with you. The screen on the 6P has a lighter surface color than the black bezels above and below which is noticeable. It isn't a major detractor from the visual quality screen on, but I agree that in a bright setting, blacks don't get to be as black as could be. It isn't bad by any means, but unless you get a completely black unreflective layer it may not be easy to improve (or Samsung is hogging it all to themselves).
Either way, you're right though the quality of the screen is still really good on the 6P so, yea. Still like my 6P, even after using a HTC 10 with it for the past 6 months. Both great, but the 6P has me returning to it more, for now.
Finally someone understands what I'm talking about. I don't want to "sell this phone and buy a Samsung then". I already had the Note 5 and got rid of it for the 6P. Love this phone, love the screen as well in low light conditions. But this really caught me by surprise. I've switched to a full black theme and outside, it really shows how washed out it really is. On a cloudy day outside, blacks on the Note 5 look almost perfectly black and yet the 6P next to it looks horribly washed out and more like greenish grey. I knew it wouldn't compete with the Note 5 in direct sunlight but it's pretty disappointing that it loses out considerably in medium light conditions as well. And not only to the Note 5 but to the ancient S2 as well. The display surface just doesn't look like any Samsung amoled phone ever which is pretty strange.
Jockson said:
Well, it was nice discussing with you but one may as well say "mine is pink, agree to disagree". It doesn't really mean anything as far as facts go.
I just took out my old Nexus 5 and surprise surprise, it absolutely kills the 6P when it comes to black depth in well lit conditions. The surface of the screen simply reflects way too much light.
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I agree with this completely. It's pretty hard not to notice that there is a definite green/brown tint to the display in contrast to the surrounding black bezel when in good ambient light. I came from a Nexus 4 and I was immediately disappointed by this aspect of the 6P display. Since then I have reconciled this disappointment with the fact that the 6P is overall a fantastic phone with substantially better value than other premium phones.
I'm not 100% sure that it's much better on Samsung devices because Samsung goes out of its way to mask this issue by making the top and bottom bezels of their phones different (non-black) colors. I'll even go so far as to suggest that the curved display on the Edge was a gimmicky attempt to obscure this issue. This, among others, is an AMOLED problem and why Apple hasn't used them. Still love the 6P, especially now on Nougat.
You are absolutely right regarding Samsung making their bezels non black. Even on their black phones bezels are often very, very dark grey. But still, their screens do have far less reflective surface. I wasn't really sure myself was it such a big difference until I compared it side by side with the Note 5, S6 edge and S2. The 6P just looks green and very washed out in comparison.
People often forget it's the perception of contrast that matters, not the absolute measured black level. LCD often gets criticized for poor contrast but visually it has deeper blacks than plasma and CRT do, except in low ambient light. Same story with the 6P. Great blacks when there isn't much light around, otherwise pretty poor and washed out.
Jockson said:
You are absolutely right regarding Samsung making their bezels non black. Even on their black phones bezels are often very, very dark grey. But still, their screens do have far less reflective surface. I wasn't really sure myself was it such a big difference until I compared it side by side with the Note 5, S6 edge and S2. The 6P just looks green and very washed out in comparison.
People often forget it's the perception of contrast that matters, not the absolute measured black level. LCD often gets criticized for poor contrast but visually it has deeper blacks than plasma and CRT do, except in low ambient light. Same story with the 6P. Great blacks when there isn't much light around, otherwise pretty poor and washed out.
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Well yes if the screen is off and you're in sunlight, you can see the difference from the bezel. That's normal for every phone. I rarely use my phone in direct sunlight. I'm talking about normal use and when the screen is on, I can not tell the difference if say the status bar is black and the edge/top/bottom of the bezel. So if you're just talking about screen off and in bright light/sunlight.... that's every phone basically. But I don't stare at my phone and worry about how dark the screen is when it's off.
Eric214 said:
ROFL are you hallucinating? My 6P's blacks are pitch black. The way I can tell... The edge of the screen, when black, is equal to the blacks on the top and bottom of the screen.
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That's true. I usually root to get the tinted navigation bar but this time i didn't root to get that because the blacks are usually same as the bezel of the phone which looks damn good.
Eric214 said:
Well yes if the screen is off and you're in sunlight, you can see the difference from the bezel. That's normal for every phone. I rarely use my phone in direct sunlight. I'm talking about normal use and when the screen is on, I can not tell the difference if say the status bar is black and the edge/top/bottom of the bezel. So if you're just talking about screen off and in bright light/sunlight.... that's every phone basically. But I don't stare at my phone and worry about how dark the screen is when it's off.
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How dark the screen is when it is turned off IS what the blacks actually look like. It can't look any darker than that, the screen doesn't emit the "black" color When there is bright content on the screen it just tricks your eyes/brain into thinking black areas are darker than they really are but in reality, contrast is still pretty poor.
I'm not talking about direct sunlight either. Even in medium ambient light blacks wash out considerably. Certainly MUCH more than they do on Samsung AMOLED phones and most LCDs so no, not every phone is the same. The 6P display just isn't very good in this regard.
It's kind of a head scratcher. I compared it with my 3T and is pretty noticeable as on the 3t the colors are better. Was it to keep cost down?
Screen on time is much better than amoled when viewing mostly white content such as web pages.
Amoled tends to over saturate colours, lcd is more subdued but also more natural looking.
Rgb matrix gives better sharpness than the pentile matrix typically used in amoled screens.
Possible issues securing sufficient quantities if amoled panels.
Mate 9 screen is also brighter.
My last three daily drivers were the Note 7, Oneplus 3 and s7. There's definite advantages to amoled but there's advantages to lcd as well. Personally I have no complaints, Huawei have used a very high quality ips panel, so I'd be surprised if cost was the main motivator.
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Exactly. People tend to hear AMOLED and think it's clear cut. It's not. Each tech has its own pros and cons.
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I forgot to mention screen burn in - a problem that lcd panels don't face and which they still can't solve for amoled.
The screen on the Mate 9 is gorgeous, I've caught myself just staring at it a few times. Not once have I felt like it is a downgrade from the s7, and the s7 is a better panel than what the Oneplus has.
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hackdrag0n said:
Screen on time is much better than amoled when viewing mostly white content such as web pages.
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Tell that to LG. Their phones are LCD yet have terrible battery life. Yet my Pixel XL and Samsung phones have had much better battery life despite using AMOLED... so this is not necessarily true.
hackdrag0n said:
Amoled tends to over saturate colours, lcd is more subdued but also more natural looking.
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Again, color calibration/saturation has NOTHING to do with screen tech. The manufacturer sets the color calibration/target. The Mate 9 IS OVER SATURATED. Not as much as most AMOLED phones, but it is not calibrated to sRGB by ANY means. AMOLED phones have typically over saturated because AMOLED has had much higher color coverage capability, and it was a strong selling point. I dislike over saturated colors, but love AMOLED when it is set to a reasonable target (sRGB or Adobe RGB). Contrast is extremely important for image quality, ESPECIALLY in dark viewing conditions. Fast pixel response time is hugely important for a smartphone to maintain a "clean" looking display when scrolling. The Mate 9 LCD is one of the worst I've seen. It has bad ghosting and/or overshoot artifacting which makes the problem even worse.
hackdrag0n said:
Rgb matrix gives better sharpness than the pentile matrix typically used in amoled screens.
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This is true. Maybe Samsung will bring back RGB for the S8. They used to have RGB AMOLED in older phones at one point, you know?
hackdrag0n said:
Mate 9 screen is also brighter.
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Not true. Samsung panels have high brightness modes under sunlight and other bright light sources. I can trigger this mode whenever I want using root and a kernel. My Pixel XL is brighter than my Mate 9.
Governa said:
Exactly. People tend to hear AMOLED and think it's clear cut. It's not. Each tech has its own pros and cons.
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It is clear cut. AMOLED is superior. It's why I spent nearly $6,000 for TWO TV's in my house that are AMOLED. The quality is mind blowing on a large screen, and once you realize its benefits there, you will never want an LCD again... even on your smartphone. At least that's the case with me. It's also why Apple is going for AMOLED with the iPhone 8... because they know it's better.
No, it's your opinion that amoled is superior. It's not a hard fact.
I'm also not sure how your pixel can be brighter when review sites have it listed at under 400 nits and the Mate 9 is listed at over 600.
Actually, I'll rephrase that: if contrast ratio is the most important factor to you then yes amoled is a must. Other than that I still maintain that there are still areas where lcd has advantages.
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There are a lot of misconceptions about display technology.
As mentioned they each have advantages and disadvantages.
LCD has a very flat power consumption due to the fact that it's essentially white LEDs shining through color filters whereas AMOLED consist of individual pixels that combine to create color meaning that each LED will vary in consumption according to what is displayed meaning white requires all of them to shine at maximum to create white which is why AMOLED uses more power in that situation and no power when displaying pure black. LG has somewhat solved that on their TVs because they use 4 sub pixels: RGBW. They therefore create white separately and can save power that way.
AMOLED is only oversaturated because it is naturally a wide gamut display. When uncalibrated it will look oversaturated because all content is pretty much sRGB which is a limited color space. Many manufacturers including Huawei don't bother calibrating their displays for accuracy.
Huawei most likely used LCD for the regular Mate 9 because no decent 6" AMOLED was available which explains why the Pro variant has a 5.5" display.
LCD has poor latencies which is also why the regular 9 doesn't support Daydream. OLED displays naturally has low latencies which is why all Daydream compatible phones are AMOLED.
AMOLED is more prone to burn-in and is also prone to display degradation due to each sub pixel aging at varying rates.
LCD displays have higher peak brightness and is therefore more easy to see in sunlight. On the other hand, AMOLED have individually controlled brightness meaning pure blacks can be attained (turning off pixels completely) whereas LCD have edge lit displays with poor control resulting in light bleeding and above-zero blacks resulting in grey-ish blacks because there will always be some light shining through. So the contrast is much greater and only limited by peak brightness on the AMOLED display.
AMOLED doesn't have RGB but RG-BG sub pixels resulting in some odd problems including potentially green tint and reduced display quality and sharpness. Pentile sucks but the yields are better I guess and it does have some advantages such as decreased power consumption.
Finally, an often overlooked issue: many modern LCD displays use voltage controlled display brightness regulation where all AMOLED displays use PWM. Why is this important? PWM can cause eye strain and headaches. Especially due to the low frequency of 240 Hz that many AMOLED displays use. Your eyes won't necessarily notice the flickering but they can be irritated by it anyway.
PS. Typed this on my phone... Should have switched to laptop. What a pain to do this write-up.
↑ now THAT is a great post. Kudos.
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hackdrag0n said:
No, it's your opinion that amoled is superior. It's not a hard fact.
I'm also not sure how your pixel can be brighter when review sites have it listed at under 400 nits and the Mate 9 is listed at over 600.
Actually, I'll rephrase that: if contrast ratio is the most important factor to you then yes amoled is a must. Other than that I still maintain that there are still areas where lcd has advantages.
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Look at the world of TV's. As is sits, LG's OLED TV's are the pinnacle of displays. They are the absolute best. No question, no contest, every quality review site agrees, as do the owners (myself included). I said the Pixel is brighter because I have enabled the Samsung panel brightness boost mode via root and a custom kernel - it acts just like the sunlight brightness boost on the S7/S7E, except I can enable it whenever I want. It is just as bright, if not brighter, than the Mate 9. The only advantage LCD has today is higher peak brightness, and that is only true in TV's since they have much larger backlights. Cellphones, AMOLED is actually much better in terms of outdoor viewing as tested by GSM Arena, due to a combination of peak brightness and lower reflectivity. Other than the potential for burn-in/image retention, there is zero benefit to an LCD in a cell phone.
Trixanity said:
LG has somewhat solved that on their TVs because they use 4 sub pixels: RGBW. They therefore create white separately and can save power that way.
Huawei most likely used LCD for the regular Mate 9 because no decent 6" AMOLED was available which explains why the Pro variant has a 5.5" display.
AMOLED is more prone to burn-in and is also prone to display degradation due to each sub pixel aging at varying rates.
AMOLED doesn't have RGB but RG-BG sub pixels resulting in some odd problems including potentially green tint and reduced display quality and sharpness. Pentile sucks but the yields are better I guess and it does have some advantages such as decreased power consumption.
Finally, an often overlooked issue: many modern LCD displays use voltage controlled display brightness regulation where all AMOLED displays use PWM. Why is this important? PWM can cause eye strain and headaches. Especially due to the low frequency of 240 Hz that many AMOLED displays use. Your eyes won't necessarily notice the flickering but they can be irritated by it anyway.
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Someone who actually knows something about AMOLED too on XDA! It's like finding a unicorn... just a few things to add...
LG does add a 4th white subpixel in their TV's, but it's moreso to increase peak brightness and not really save power. When display white, there are actually 3 subpixels turned on (I believe it's red, blue, and white) so it's not making much difference there... but it is certainly brighter because ALL the subpixels are WHITE subpixels (red, blue, and green have color filters), so having a white subpixel without a color filter eliminates brightness loss on those subpixels.
It blows my mind that Huawei couldn't get a decent ~6" AMOLED panel. Motorola did it for the Nexus 6. And hell, Samsung made them a custom 6.6" AMOLED display for the Honor Note 8! Oh well... maybe Samsung wanted less competition against the S8.
I will say that AMOLED phone panels have had a nasty tendency to burn-in. I can't say how the 2016 panels perform in normal usage (store burn-in is not a fair baseline), but it seems to improve every year. Neither of my 2016 LG OLED TV's show any burn-in, and 1 of them has been used as a PC monitor its entire time. I have taken a few steps to mitigate it (I hide icons behind browser windows, have the task bar set to auto-hide, and turn the brightness down slightly), but nothing major and it is perfectly fine. Image retention and uneven wear on the display is often confused with burn-in. For instance, the nav bar on my Pixel XL is clearly visible if I go fullscreen on a gray background (the most obvious color for burn/IR tests), but that is mostly because the black pixels there just never get used... so they're actually brighter, ever so slightly, than the rest of the screen. By running a manual compensation cycle when I'm not using the phone (such as white noise, or inverted colors), it mostly fixes the issue. That is an acceptable trade-off to me, especially considering the fact that the nav bar is always there. My TV's run black-screen compensation cycles automatically every 8 hours or so (after shutdown), so this is the nature of the beast.
True about the RG-BG pentile garbage. But that's Samsung's doing since they have terrible yields with full RGB. They did make at least 1 phone years ago that had true RGB AMOLED, and they marketed that specific feature too, literally telling customers how much sharper RGB is compared to pentile! - funny how they went away from it. Probably why their OLED TV division failed as well, since RGB AMOLED is clearly impossible to produce good yields right now, especially at larger sizes. I am hoping that the S8 brings back RGB AMOLED in the mobile world... rumors say it will.
AMOLED phone panels certainly do use PWM, but LG OLED TV's do not use PWM.
Nitemare3219 said:
Look at the world of TV's. As is sits, LG's OLED TV's are the pinnacle of displays. They are the absolute best. No question, no contest, every quality review site agrees, as do the owners (myself included). I said the Pixel is brighter because I have enabled the Samsung panel brightness boost mode via root and a custom kernel - it acts just like the sunlight brightness boost on the S7/S7E, except I can enable it whenever I want. It is just as bright, if not brighter, than the Mate 9. The only advantage LCD has today is higher peak brightness, and that is only true in TV's since they have much larger backlights. Cellphones, AMOLED is actually much better in terms of outdoor viewing as tested by GSM Arena, due to a combination of peak brightness and lower reflectivity. Other than the potential for burn-in/image retention, there is zero benefit to an LCD in a cell phone.
Someone who actually knows something about AMOLED too on XDA! It's like finding a unicorn... just a few things to add...
LG does add a 4th white subpixel in their TV's, but it's moreso to increase peak brightness and not really save power. When display white, there are actually 3 subpixels turned on (I believe it's red, blue, and white) so it's not making much difference there... but it is certainly brighter because ALL the subpixels are WHITE subpixels (red, blue, and green have color filters), so having a white subpixel without a color filter eliminates brightness loss on those subpixels.
It blows my mind that Huawei couldn't get a decent ~6" AMOLED panel. Motorola did it for the Nexus 6. And hell, Samsung made them a custom 6.6" AMOLED display for the Honor Note 8! Oh well... maybe Samsung wanted less competition against the S8.
I will say that AMOLED phone panels have had a nasty tendency to burn-in. I can't say how the 2016 panels perform in normal usage (store burn-in is not a fair baseline), but it seems to improve every year. Neither of my 2016 LG OLED TV's show any burn-in, and 1 of them has been used as a PC monitor its entire time. I have taken a few steps to mitigate it (I hide icons behind browser windows, have the task bar set to auto-hide, and turn the brightness down slightly), but nothing major and it is perfectly fine. Image retention and uneven wear on the display is often confused with burn-in. For instance, the nav bar on my Pixel XL is clearly visible if I go fullscreen on a gray background (the most obvious color for burn/IR tests), but that is mostly because the black pixels there just never get used... so they're actually brighter, ever so slightly, than the rest of the screen. By running a manual compensation cycle when I'm not using the phone (such as white noise, or inverted colors), it mostly fixes the issue. That is an acceptable trade-off to me, especially considering the fact that the nav bar is always there. My TV's run black-screen compensation cycles automatically every 8 hours or so (after shutdown), so this is the nature of the beast.
True about the RG-BG pentile garbage. But that's Samsung's doing since they have terrible yields with full RGB. They did make at least 1 phone years ago that had true RGB AMOLED, and they marketed that specific feature too, literally telling customers how much sharper RGB is compared to pentile! - funny how they went away from it. Probably why their OLED TV division failed as well, since RGB AMOLED is clearly impossible to produce good yields right now, especially at larger sizes. I am hoping that the S8 brings back RGB AMOLED in the mobile world... rumors say it will.
AMOLED phone panels certainly do use PWM, but LG OLED TV's do not use PWM.
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This is the first time I've been called a unicorn. I like it.
Thanks for the correction on the LG OLED TVs. I was under the impression they used the W-pixel to both produce higher brightness and reduce the added power consumption from going full tilt on each of the other pixels. I did not know they used filters like that actually. I thought they used similar tech to Samsung but apparently not But that also explains why their yields are so different.
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
I'm hoping the S8 can do away with both Pentile and PWM. Then I'd probably buy it instantly but that's wishful thinking.
PWM is apparently used to avoid hue shifts which I suspect might be because of the Pentile arrangement but I'm not sure. I've not seen measurements on the S2 but I've heard anecdotal evidence that it was actually not using PWM.
It might also explain why LG doesn't use it on their TVs; that they simply don't have that problem with hue shifts because their panels are so different. I wish LG would get back in the OLED display game for smaller screens including phones, tablets, laptops and monitors. It would be so awesome with some competition.
By the way, interesting note on the peak brightness. Can the brightness boost be maintained indefinitely or does it dim after a while? I know LG had a booster on their recent LCDs (of all things) and it dimmed shortly after. One thing I should note that the Mate 9 reaches up to 700 nits and that's not limited to auto brightness like Samsung's is meaning that you can manually boost it to that at all times. The Pixel XL only manages 400 in the same scenario but if you can boost the peak brightness through a mod and keep it there (perhaps even without auto brightness?) then that's impressive especially if goes over 700. I do believe 700 nits is about as bright as you'll get on a smartphone LCD. The only reason we even need it is because of sunlight. 700 nits would be blinding to my eyes in any other scenario
If only they could invent a display that could switch between being emissive and reflective with few drawbacks - that would solve a lot of problems.
Edit: forgot to address the Huawei panel. Whether Huawei could get a 6" panel for the phone or not is uncertain. I'm just guessing; I have no sources to back that up but it seems to be the case that they couldn't find a panel that suited their needs. They probably also had a good deal with JDI since they've used their panels for some years and AMOLED was only just about to become the expected standard. We've long seen LCD being used by most manufacturers - it's only in the recent year or two that it has spread to other brands than Samsung. I mean Apple, LG, HTC, Sony and Huawei have all been using LCD either exclusively or primarily. That's about to change in the coming years.
I'm thinking the AMOLED panels they could get weren't up to the standard they were looking for. The LCD panel they used was pretty damn good although poorly calibrated. Although now that I think of it the reason the Pro is is 5.5" might be more to do with the requirement for a curved display which limits their options quite a bit. Also, keep in mind a custom display is expensive so producing a phone on the scale of a Mate 9 would probably limit them to off-the-shelf components to avoid gutting their profit margins. I'm sure they could have gotten any display they wanted if they were willing to pay the price.
With that being said: there are probably many reasons not to go AMOLED for the regular Mate 9 and all we can do is guess what their reasons are.
Trixanity said:
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
I'm hoping the S8 can do away with both PenTile and PWM. Then I'd probably buy it instantly but that's wishful thinking.
PWM is apparently used to avoid hue shifts which I suspect might be because of the Pentile arrangement but I'm not sure. I've not seen measurements on the S2 but I've heard anecdotal evidence that it was actually not using PWM.
It might also explain why LG doesn't use it on their TVs; that they simply don't have that problem with hue shifts because their panels are so different.
By the way, interesting note on the peak brightness. Can the brightness boost be maintained indefinitely or does it dim after a while? I know LG had a booster on their recent LCDs (of all things) and it dimmed shortly after. One thing I should note that the Mate 9 reaches up to 700 nits and that's not limited to auto brightness like Samsung's is meaning that you can manually boost it to that at all times. The Pixel XL only manages 400 in the same scenario but if you can boost the peak brightness through a mod and keep it there (perhaps even without auto brightness?) then that's impressive especially if goes over 700. I do believe 700 nits is about as bright as you'll get on a smartphone LCD. The only reason we even need it is because of sunlight. 700 nits would be blinding to my eyes in any other scenario
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The S2... man, long time ago. They probably only managed RGB because of the low resolution and/or realized then just how bad the yields were.
I've never noticed PWM, so it's no issue for me. I believe the color hue shifts when viewing at an angle is actually because the display is pentile. LG's OLED TV's have mind blowing viewing angles - it is essentially perfect no matter where you view from in terms of color, AND the brightness does not decrease either like on an LCD - forgot to mention that too! LCD panels get much dimmer if you view off-axis... OLED do not.
As far as I know, the Pixel can maintain the brightness boost indefinitely. I have used it for upwards of 20 minutes or so before. I can manually enable it via widget, or have it set to function automatically as well. I'm not sure I want to test long periods of time though... there could be a downside to it over time (perhaps why Samsung does not allow it to be user enabled). I know LG's phones in the past have quickly turned down their peak brightness due to heat issues. I wonder if the Mate 9 could suffer from the same problem eventually? Probably not seeing as how Apple manages to have displays that bright as well without issue. I think LG's mobile division is just really, really lacking right now. Hopefully they bring OLED to their phones again soon (they've used P-OLED a few times, and I experienced it in their Watch Urbane LTE 2nd edition smartwatch, and that was fantastic).
Nitemare3219 said:
The S2... man, long time ago. They probably only managed RGB because of the low resolution and/or realized then just how bad the yields were.
I've never noticed PWM, so it's no issue for me. I believe the color hue shifts when viewing at an angle is actually because the display is pentile. LG's OLED TV's have mind blowing viewing angles - it is essentially perfect no matter where you view from in terms of color, AND the brightness does not decrease either like on an LCD - forgot to mention that too! LCD panels get much dimmer if you view off-axis... OLED do not.
As far as I know, the Pixel can maintain the brightness boost indefinitely. I have used it for upwards of 20 minutes or so before. I can manually enable it via widget, or have it set to function automatically as well. I'm not sure I want to test long periods of time though... there could be a downside to it over time (perhaps why Samsung does not allow it to be user enabled). I know LG's phones in the past have quickly turned down their peak brightness due to heat issues. I wonder if the Mate 9 could suffer from the same problem eventually? Probably not seeing as how Apple manages to have displays that bright as well without issue. I think LG's mobile division is just really, really lacking right now. Hopefully they bring OLED to their phones again soon (they've used P-OLED a few times, and I experienced it in their Watch Urbane LTE 2nd edition smartwatch, and that was fantastic).
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Just a heads up, I've added an edit to my previous post.
I wish I could afford an OLED TV One would be foolish not to pick up an LG OLED TV over any LCD display out there today (barring the price that is).
I don't think maintaining peak brightness is an issue unless you're standing out in direct sunlight all day with your phone. I mean you wouldn't switch to manual brightness and crank it up when you're inside. Most probably use auto brightness anyway and that means it won't be anywhere near the maximum unless you're outside. I'm sure it might reduce the lifespan of the LEDs or maybe increase the likelihood of a defect.
I was actually quite intrigued by LG's G Flex series (aka banana phone) which had a P-OLED display. It might be a bit gimmicky especially the 'self-healing' back cover but it looked different but it was plagued by poor sales and the second iteration was let down by the Snapdragon 810.
The G6 will have their new 18:9 (2:1 really) 5.7" LCD display. It will have 2880 x 1440 resolution. So not this time.
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
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I doubt the input lag stems from the panel technology. Input lag is usually related to processing lag in the display controller and other IC. However they can achieve 1 ms response time and theoretically 100000 Hz refresh rate, so it has the potential to be the best gaming display technology ever.
As previously mentioned: what many consider burn-in is merely image retention which is very much reversible and it does continue to get better in that regard.
Trixanity said:
I doubt the input lag stems from the panel technology. Input lag is usually related to processing lag in the display controller and other IC. However they can achieve 1 ms response time and theoretically 100000 Hz refresh rate, so it has the potential to be the best gaming display technology ever.
As previously mentioned: what many consider burn-in is merely image retention which is very much reversible and it does continue to get better in that regard.
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Well "burn-in" is actually the leds "burning" so there is no way to recover them.
Lodix said:
Well "burn-in" is actually the leds "burning" so there is no way to recover them.
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That doesn't really refute what I said. That's merely an explanation for what burn-in is. What I said is that many think image retention is burn-in when they're two different things (or more accurately you could say that the symptoms are the same but the prognosis is different especially if given the right medication - so to speak). Image retention is reversible as I said.
Trixanity said:
That doesn't really refute what I said. That's merely an explanation for what burn-in is. What I said is that many think image retention is burn-in when they're two different things (or more accurately you could say that the symptoms are the same but the prognosis is different especially if given the right medication - so to speak). Image retention is reversible as I said.
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But the problem with oled panels is the burn-in, not the retention. Maybe this year they have manged to solve it someway since Apple is implementing it in their iPhones and people are very nitpicking with their devices.
PD: I am all over AMOLED panels, it is one of the reason why I got the 9 Pro.
I don't mind a quality 1080 panel. Huawei makes me rethink my love of AMOLED displays.
I personally don't see a major difference unless it's the newest Samsung flagship. Not a major change from my 6p or Nexus 6 but these weren't cream of the crop AMOLED displays.
I truly thought this would be the mate that got the qhd AMOLED especially after the honor note 8 that released not long before this one. Extremely happy with the LCD panel.
Last 2 LCD phones I used was LeEco s1 and lg v10. The s1 had a great LCD panel that look AMOLED. Lg v10 just looked washed out most of the time.
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
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You're wrong. In 2015, yes they were ****. I had an EG9600 and it had about 50ms of input lag. I have 2 2016 TV's now, a C6 and a B6. The B6 just got an update and it does 28ms of input lag at 4:2:2, but close to 70ms at 4:4:4. The C6 does 34ms of input lag at either setting (4:2:2, or 4:4:4). The lag is NOT noticeable at all, and part of this is because the pixels respond instantly to new frames (<.1ms) whereas IPS and VA can take MANY milliseconds to update the pixels - some panels take dozens of milliseconds for a full transition for some colors. OLED is the fastest refresh for a panel today. My C6 has hundreds of hours of PC use ONLY, and has ZERO burn in... NONE.
Lodix said:
But the problem with oled panels is the burn-in, not the retention. Maybe this year they have manged to solve it someway since Apple is implementing it in their iPhones and people are very nitpicking with their devices.
PD: I am all over AMOLED panels, it is one of the reason why I got the 9 Pro.
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The problem is a lot of people mistake burn-in for image retention because they don't come back and check again later after viewing different content on the display for awhile. I will say that burn-in can be an issue for phones though, depending on how you use them/set them up. My friend's S5 has the keyboard ghosted/burned into the display. He must text a LOT or something. Blew my mind when I saw that.
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag.
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Not in Gaming/PC Mode on the most recent models. On the 2017 OLED the input lag is 21ms in virtually all situations.
Trixanity said:
I wish I could afford an OLED TV One would be foolish not to pick up an LG OLED TV over any LCD display out there today (barring the price that is).
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For pricing, you just have to wait until Black Friday for deals on the current year's models. That's the best time to buy a TV that will last you many years. Picked up the LG 65" C7P for $1900 last Fall. I wouldn't consider Samsung's QLED TV's over LG's RGBW OLED. However, there is the advantage of luminance. QLED have a higher luminance. Also keep in mind that although RGBW is not Pentile and doesn't suffer from inferior sub-resolution, you do lose color volume to an extent when using the higher levels of luminance (You'll be depending on the additional white sub-pixel). I'd say this is a fairly tertiary concern but could be important if you use the OLED in a bright living room. If using a dark room, there's absolutely no contest. Personally, I have the C7P in a living room and still completely satisfied. There's a reason why it's a champ on every review site. Oh and for reference, all the LG 2017 OLED have essentially the same panel irregardless of price.
Trixanity said:
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
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The Samsung Galaxy Note II (2012) also had a Full RGB AMOLED Display (720P HD). That was the last time for phones. However, Samsung also still does Full RGB AMOLED for the larger 9.7" models in their premium lines of tablets (Galaxy Tab S2, Tab S3). Those have the same 4:3 resolution as the iPad (2048x1536). The 10.5" Galaxy Tab S has a 2560x1600 Full RGB AMOLED Display as well. I certainly hope Samsung turns away from Pentile sometime in the future, but I don't think they'll do so anytime soon for smartphones. However, there is some hope.
I noticed that when I have Always On display at maximum brightness, the device turns on many random white pixels in the area that was supposed to be black, kind of simulating a LCD backlight.
It is noticeable by exposing the sleeping phone to a bright light so it will go to maximum brightness while Always On, then turning off the lights while the brightness is at maximum you can see the "backlight" (white pixels in the black area). As soon the phone adjusts the brightness you can't see it any more.
Here are some pictures, comparing maximum brightness, low brightness and also comparing to a S8.
https://imgur.com/a/pZgzT
Please note that by taking a picture makes it more evident, in reality it looks just like a LCD backlight, not a star constellation like in the picture. Even though it is not bad in reality I am concerned because this should not happen in a black screen in an OLED display right?
I tried replicating this with a regular image and I cannot, I can only see it while in Always On display.
Anyone else having similar issues with the regular Pixel 2? Or even in the 2 XL? I did not notice this happening when I had the 2 XL.
My blacks have always had that LCD type backlight look. I was wondering the same thing but I've seen others with it so I just assume it's the design. Not keen on it but it's not the end of the world for me
To me it only happens in always on display. If I have a black picture on my screen it doesn't show this "backlight"
Amoled or OLED screens are overrated, Poco-f1 screen doesn't lag behind in any circumstances.:cool
Yeah, but it drains more power even with an all black setup.
Hemudon said:
Amoled or OLED screens are overrated, Poco-f1 screen doesn't lag behind in any circumstances.:cool
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Lo. I wonder if you have ever used a Samsung device with sAMOLED display? Just place both a sAMOLED and a LCD display side by side and see the difference.
Rowdyy Ronnie said:
Lo. I wonder if you have ever used a Samsung device with sAMOLED display? Just place both a sAMOLED and a LCD display side by side and see the difference.
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Previous phone was Galaxy S8, I don't find much of the experience difference.
IPS LCD and AMOLED displays has advantages and disadvantages
IPS LCD has that AMOLED doesn't have:
-Sharpness and Clarity is good
-Natural Colors (AMOLED is little saturated on Colors)
-Can recover to accidental burns or screen burns (AMOLED cannot recover on screen burns thus leaving white marks)
-Longer pixel life (AMOLED's pixel quality degrades over time)
AMOLED has that IPS LCD doesn't have:
-Improve battery life as turning off pixels without backlight (Good for Dark Themed apps, videos, photos)
-Brightness and Contrast is good
-Good Viewing angles
-Always-on Display (IPS LCD cannot support this due that it uses backlight rather than turning off black pixels thus increasing power consumption)
Verdict:
No clear winner. It is the preference of both users and the manufacturer on what type of display they want to use. This is why Xiaomi uses IPS LCD Displays because it is cheaper than AMOLED ones. The target is being a budget flagship-tier phone thus achieving it.
Rowdyy Ronnie said:
Lo. I wonder if you have ever used a Samsung device with sAMOLED display? Just place both a sAMOLED and a LCD display side by side and see the difference.
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Yeah best done with a gray picture so you can see the burn in on the oled. After some burned oled I only buy IPS screens.
I can't understand the "true black" hype as there is no such thing in real life and as the brain even can interpret white as black if the contrast is right.
As long as OLED tends to burn in, it's a no-go for me.
faeArai said:
Yeah best done with a gray picture so you can see the burn in on the oled. After some burned oled I only buy IPS screens.
I can't understand the "true black" hype as there is no such thing in real life and as the brain even can interpret white as black if the contrast is right.
As long as OLED tends to burn in, it's a no-go for me.
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Three reasons why Xiaomi should go the OLED route :
True black :
Here's an example of true black :
On you Poco, go to full screen settings and turn off the notch. Now to two top corners are rounded as the bottom ones. Now go to a dark room, as if you were using your phone at night. Well you still see the top corners of your phone's screen on. Of course that color is black, but it's awful. (In a dark room you see it better, but I see it in the sun as well).
Always-On-Display or AOD :
You can't have AOD on an ips panel. End of the story.
Brightness :
Outside in full daylight, I constantly have to block sunlight off the screen and put it right up to my face to see what's on it. OLED is way brighter.
Bonus :
Dark mode is here in the MIUI beta and coming to everyone later. MIUI 11 will have it out of the box. This means phones with OLED screens will have a great battery advantage over ips.
Also - OLED and AMOLED tend to use very low PWM which may give you a headache/migraine.
For instance - Xiaomi Mi 8 with AMOLED panel has backlight that flickers at 100 Hz, Samsung S9+ has AMOLED panel with backlight that flickers at 215.5 Hz while Pocophone has a backlight that flickers at 2315 Hz (source - notebookcheck reviews)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Why-Pulse-Width-Modulation-PWM-is-such-a-headache.270240.0.html
Rowdyy Ronnie said:
Lo. I wonder if you have ever used a Samsung device with sAMOLED display? Just place both a sAMOLED and a LCD display side by side and see the difference.
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Click to collapse
They have pros and cons, both of them. While sAMOLED has better contrast, black colour, and often better viewing angles, IPS has most of the time better colour accuracy and it's better to look at while exposed to direct sunlight. I mean, you use the one which suits you the best. Unfortunately, Xiaomi uses probably some cheat IPS panels, so they look worse compared to some higher end phone with IPS panels.
True black is just an excuse ??
And amoled panels aren't bad or anything. They are just over rated and people say. Amoled- amoled l. Look it's not that a big of a deal.
And battery consumption difference is just minor
Like 3 or 4% through dark mode in amoleds too
So what's the hype
I just said Poco-f1 LCD panel is just as good as OLED
If not it's only a difference of 19-20
Nothing more
Ill always prefer lcd. When i bought the phone i had to keep it on over night for data transfer via wifi as i had no pc , to keep the wifi transfer app alive i had to keep screen timeout to never, on morning i noticed lcd retention all over the screen ?(similar to amoled burn in but not permanent), had it been an amoled surely my screen would have to be replaced day 2 of buying a new phone. I had to use the phone screen a lot but the Lcd retention went away completely after around 8 hrs:victory:, so no amoled ever unless they fix burn in!
lol this thread is like a circlejerk. my poco f1 has crappier display than my a2. it has the lowest quality lcd possible. this comes from someone who has used over 37 android smartphones throughout this decade with many being top tier flagships.
But poco F1 has a comparatively dim display even for an LCD. Under heavy sunlight it becomes difficult to see the display. On S10 for example you can clearly see it in any condition. That is why they bumped up the brightness in the poco X2
How is the LCD's black levels? Also at the lowest brightness.
SaladEsc said:
How is the LCD's black levels? Also at the lowest brightness.
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Hi. I got the device today and I'm fairly impressed with the black levels from this LCD display. Even with low brightness.
The panel, at least mine seems pretty homogeneous and viewing angles are good.
Ah, and I'm coming from an amoled screen (Samsung A71).
well thats brilliant and reassuring thanks Patoilo , I ordered mine a day ago and my context is as a movement and cognition impaired (light and sound sensitivity,reduced memory) disabled dude I keep inducing burn in on OLED displays after 1 year to 18 months AND the PWM brightness moderating method plus pentile subpixel arrangement all mess with my vision and comfort when trying to read. I was super excited to see this combination of 120hz, LCD, big battery etc - the physical size is the only draw back but its mitigated by the reliability of both the screen robustness (not going to burn in or discolor over time) and the fact this thing should last a long time even if I had to go to hospital halfway through it charging
Ill report back about the display when the phone arrives especially stuff like how pronounced any ghosting is at 120hz, how nice the 1080p+ clarity is now that im not on Pentile etc
Im very impressed with the display, coming from a oneplus3 oled, this display is so much better.
Colors are much more vibrant, black level is good and the display is massive in size.
Watching movies in 21:9 with the dual speaker is insane.
One think to note, with "dark mode" enabled it changes multiple colors like white to dark grey, yellow to dark orange etc. so dont keep that always enabled.