A quick overview for those who might be thinking about the OEM Samsung wireless charging replacement back cover for the Note 4. I also get into a bit of risk vs cost analysis towards the end.
I have compared both the Qi version and the Powermat version. This information applies to both. They are physically identical. The only difference is which charging standard they support.
Model EP-CN910IBU
Output 5.0v 800mA
S/N RCIFA
MSIP-REM-SEC-EP-EP-CN910IWK
Made in Vietnam
MSRP $39
Be aware these replacement covers add thickness to the handset.
Stock handset (non charging cover) plus glass screen protector: 0.360"
Handset plus EP-CN910IBU wireless charging cover plus glass screen protector, 0.425"
The charging cover adds a net thickness of 0.065." While this doesn't sound like much, it is enough to prevent most cases / enclosures from fitting over the charging cover.
These measurements are taken with a precision micrometer (certified to an accuracy of +/- 0.002")
As a common reference, an average US $0.25 quarter measures 0.065."
Imagine wedging a layer of quarters in between your phone and your case. Chances are it won't fit. Do you really want to use an $800 device with no case? The only case option would be a dimensionally forgiving non rigid rubber bumper.
When used with a Duracell powermat, the charging works as expected, albeit at the slow 800mA charging speed. The sensitivity of proper placement of the phone, centered on the powermat is still an issue. Even a small 0.25" movement out of center will stop charging.
Here are some simple calculations that allow us to directly compare *maximum* charging speeds using the basic electrical formula of Volts x Amps = Watts
Standard Wall charger 5V x 2A = 10W
Samsung adaptive fast charger 9V x 1.67A = 15.03W
Samsung wireless charging cover 5V x 0.8A = 4W
This comparison shows the wireless back covers charge at a rate of that is 60% slower than a standard wall charger and 74% slower than the adaptive fast charger that shipped with our Note 4 devices. In my opinion, this wireless setup is only practical for overnight use and possibly as a trickle charger in an office / desktop environment. It is not practical for use as a primary daytime charging system during frequent and heavy use of the handset.
The cover was $39, the powermat was $50 for a combined cost of $90. Car charging cradles are presumably another $50-$70. As a completely wireless charging solution, this costs about $200 and takes 3-4 times longer to charge.
I purchased this setup as a safeguard against damage to the usb port form a lifetime of plugging in charging cords. I have experienced usb port damage / degradation on previous devices.
Conclusion:
Consider that most of us carry an insurance policy through our provider for about $7 / month ($168 spread out over 2 years.) If you ever use the insurance due to damage, theft or loss, we pay a $200 deductible. Consider that most of us will upgrade to a newer handset within 2 years. This gives us a combined contractual insurance cost of roughly $370 across the 2 year lifespan of the device, and only if you end up replacing the device for *any* reason, not just usb port damage. Otherwise you pay only the ~$170 over 2 years.
The cost of "physical" insurance by way of wireless charging and a rubber bumper case is well over $200 all at the time of equipment purchase.
In my opinion, this high cost and slow speed of wireless charging is not sensible. I will be returning the equipment and returning to corded charging and my favorite case. I will keep the contractual insurance thought At&t. This risk vs cost analysis with corded charging is acceptable to me.
Thank you for your thorough review. I just purchased the official case yesterday from Samsung with a 50% discount coupon, after which, I started researching reviews and cases for it and found that many of the cases I was contemplating on purchasing were no longer fitting. I previously owned the Note 2 with a stick-on qi wireless coil and it worked great so I was leaning towards the same solution for the Note 4 but reading reviews about them seemed to point that the fact that it interferes with the NFC module. I use SoftCard (formerly ISIS) on a daily basis so this leads me to use the OEM back.
el_chiefo said:
Thank you for your thorough review. I just purchased the official case yesterday from Samsung with a 50% discount coupon, after which, I started researching reviews and cases for it and found that many of the cases I was contemplating on purchasing were no longer fitting. I previously owned the Note 2 with a stick-on qi wireless coil and it worked great so I was leaning towards the same solution for the Note 4 but reading reviews about them seemed to point that the fact that it interferes with the NFC module. I use SoftCard (formerly ISIS) on a daily basis so this leads me to use the OEM back.
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What's the 50off coupon?
h3ck said:
What's the 50off coupon?
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When you register your note 4 with Samsung (and the samsung account), you should be emailed a coupon for 50% of of items $50 or less from their website
this is a silly "review" and an even sillier analysis.
It completely ignores the fact that all your data is on the device and if you ever have to replace it its a huge pain to back it up and restore it.
It also completely ignores how fragile the device is without a case on it.
It ignores the problem of fumbling around trying to find the correct way to insert the usb cable into the microusb slot (and if you insert the wrong way the tab can snap off) in the dark and trying to mount it on a car charger when you want to just get in the car and drive. it ignores the fact that wires running everywhere make a mess.
I have an iblason armorbox case and the samsung wireless back. Case fits perfectly, when i want to charge i just throw it on the charger. phone doesnt get below 90% throughout the day. I have an ebay 6000mah wireless charger in my bag, a wireless pad in my bedroom in a box and a wireless car charger. When i get home i literally throw the phone into the box and its charging instantly. i put the phone on my car cradle and it charges instantly. I put the phone with a rubberband in my bag attached to the wireless charger and it keeps charging while in my bag. no wires required. once a week i connect the usb cable from the 6000mah portable charger to a computer and leave it. overnight it gets topped up and ready to use for the next week. ive dropped the phone twice already (bumped it off a table and it fell from a placement on top of the car to concrete) with no issues. i dont have any silly insurance and the phone is zero hassle. i can use it in the rain, snow, dust, mud etc without worrying. the phone is always at 100% (never gets below 90%) and i dont need to worry about running out of battery.
zurkx said:
this is a silly "review" and an even sillier analysis.
It completely ignores the fact that all your data is on the device and if you ever have to replace it its a huge pain to back it up and restore it.
It also completely ignores how fragile the device is without a case on it.
It ignores the problem of fumbling around trying to find the correct way to insert the usb cable into the microusb slot (and if you insert the wrong way the tab can snap off) in the dark and trying to mount it on a car charger when you want to just get in the car and drive. it ignores the fact that wires running everywhere make a mess.
I have an iblason armorbox case and the samsung wireless back. Case fits perfectly, when i want to charge i just throw it on the charger. phone doesnt get below 90% throughout the day. I have an ebay 6000mah wireless charger in my bag, a wireless pad in my bedroom in a box and a wireless car charger. When i get home i literally throw the phone into the box and its charging instantly. i put the phone on my car cradle and it charges instantly. I put the phone with a rubberband in my bag attached to the wireless charger and it keeps charging while in my bag. no wires required. once a week i connect the usb cable from the 6000mah portable charger to a computer and leave it. overnight it gets topped up and ready to use for the next week. ive dropped the phone twice already (bumped it off a table and it fell from a placement on top of the car to concrete) with no issues. i dont have any silly insurance and the phone is zero hassle. i can use it in the rain, snow, dust, mud etc without worrying. the phone is always at 100% (never gets below 90%) and i dont need to worry about running out of battery.
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Thank you for your opinion. I will keep mine.
I backup on a regular basis and restoring is easy.
I agree the device is fragile without a case.
I don't want the armorbox or otterbox or any other case that significantly increases the dimensions and bulk of the handset.
I don't charge in the car because I have short drive times.
I don't care for having to box or bag my phone throughout the day.
My job is not at a desk so I can't let the phone sit on a charging pad while at work.
I didn't want to spend hundreds of dollars on three or four wireless chargers to be distributed throughout my daily locations.
Wireless charging isn't mainstream enough yet to go completely wireless across all devices within reasonable costs. Other devices still require the cord mess. I am an "all in" or nothing sort of person.
The main reason for keeping the insurance is replacement in case of theft. Any new electronics are theft targets. I have had 2 phones stolen in the past. In one instance, I located the thief, removed a few teeth and repossessed my phone. The other went offline as soon as it was stolen and was untraceable. The insurance saved me from buying a new $600 handset out of cash.
Regardless of either of our subjective opinions, I mainly wrote the review to post the facts and figures of physical size and power output limitations. I will wait for resonant charging technology to be released and re-evaluate the cost benefit at that time. My analysis and opinions are there simply to get people to think about the pros and cons.
Wireless charging is way overrated imo. It charges much slower and you still need to have a cord for the charger itself (obviously). It literally takes almost the same amount of time to plug in the USB cord as it does to find the sweet spot of a wireless charger. At this point it's simply a novelty imo. Nothing more.
Each to their own. Any good 3 coil charge base has an enormous sweet spot, so hunting for position is not an issue at all.
If you get calls at night a lot (for work or other), the wireless charging is a god send. Trying to plug it in multiple times in the dark is ridiculous.
Now, when we have reversible connectors, my opinion might change.
JasonJoel said:
Each to their own. Any good 3 coil charge base has an enormous sweet spot, so hunting for position is not an issue at all.
If you get calls at night a lot (for work or other), the wireless charging is a god send. Trying to plug it in multiple times in the dark is ridiculous.
Now, when we have reversible connectors, my opinion might change.
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I hear you man, I'm not saying it's totally worthless, but it's a very niche product imo. Like you have pointed out, it serves its purpose for some people. But I think for the average Joe, plugging in is just fine.
I do see where you are coming from however.
I have been reading about wireless charging for a couple years and never really pursued it on my Note 2 because I was with Verizon and they naturally removed it as they typically screw up phones somehow. I saw so many people that loved it and would go to great lengths to enable it. I decided after switching to T Mobile a couple weeks ago that I would give it a shot. I bought the OEM back and a cheap qi charger off of eBay and was disappointed with having to adjust my phone on the charger to hit the sweet spot. I decided to buy a Tylt charger and wow what a difference! I can literally place the phone on the charger in my case with no concern of finding a sweet spot because the whole charger is the sweet spot. It even works great through my wifes thick leather case. I love it and I find the rate of charge to be at least equal to a standard charger ( not fast charge) and that's great. I watched some netflix last night with my phone on the tylt (45 degrees)and it actually charged while streaming. I haven't personally plugged a phone in for more than 2 years since I just swap batteries out of my Samsung spare battery charger but now when I'm working or surfing at night my phone is always charging wirelessly and I never wake up with a phone that's less than 100%.
Even though it subjectively feels like wireless is as fast as a standard wall charger, it is not possible.
Manufacturers specification for wireless chargering is universally 800mA, or 0.8A.
Check my math in the first post. At 4W wireless chargers are less than half the speed of of a standard 10W wall charger.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
Hey guys, so I'm looking for a case that fits the added bulk of the OEM QI back. Any recommendations? I'm looking at the i-blason case but open to any other suggestions.
Thanks
syngiun said:
The cost of "physical" insurance by way of wireless charging and a rubber bumper case is well over $200 all at the time of equipment purchase.
In my opinion, this high cost and slow speed of wireless charging is not sensible. I will be returning the equipment and returning to corded charging and my favorite case. I will keep the contractual insurance thought At&t. This risk vs cost analysis with corded charging is acceptable to me.
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"well over $200"? The qi charging back is $40. I got a 3 pack of Qi chargers for $60 (nokia, they come in a bunch of colors) so I could have one by my bed, desk at home, and desk at work. Numerous others are available for $10-$25 on ebay and other retailers. I'll happily pay $100 (qi back + 3 docks) or so to never touch the USB cable, fumble with a cable end in the dark, or try the cable backwards. When charging is easy you don't care about charging speed as much. 0.5 seconds to dock or undock (without even looking) will spoil you.
While I have multiple devices, I end up keeping my devices for 3-4 years with secondary uses. So even if I do get something new within 2 years I don't want the secondary device to die just becuase of a horribly designed charging cable that makes my first nokia dumb phone from the 90s look awesome. Imagine that after almost 20 years of USB might someday actually be reversible, maybe in 2015.
Never understood why the audio jack on today's phones is robust, easy to use, and impossible to get backwards. You could use it 10 times a day for a decade, yet most rarely use it. Nokia used to use a similar connector for charging, I could manage to plug it in with my eyes closed an one hand behind my back. To charge a phone daily you end up with a tiny fragile usb connectors that's easy to get backwards and difficult to get in correctly on the first try without careful examination. Already lost one phone to usb, I'm trying to avoid losing a second.
Both the microusb connector and expoxied in batteries reak of planned obsolence to me. Thankfully the note 4 can minimize both problems.
Oh, one last thing. The Qi Chargers do lose some efficiency. So if you get a charger that's USB powered you end up with a poor charging speeds. So I'd get one of the ones that come with their own wall wart. I use the nokia DT-900 (which comes with it's own wall wart) with my nexus 5 and it charges pretty quickly.
el_chiefo said:
Hey guys, so I'm looking for a case that fits the added bulk of the OEM QI back. Any recommendations? I'm looking at the i-blason case but open to any other suggestions.
Thanks
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I purchased the Caseology Carbon Fiber case to see if I'd have any luck with the OEM charging back....and it worked! I posted pictures here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=57275699#post57275699
Product here:
http://www.amazon.com/Caseology-Samsung-Absorbent-T-mobile-Unlocked/dp/B00N4DIM0A
I have the wireless charging S view cover in combination with the S5 charging dock. I agree with what you are saying. The charging is really slow. Especially for such a high capacity battery used in the Note 4. I would not buy this setup again.
Does the qi back protect the camera?
Yes the qi back protects the camera lens in terms of keeping the lens from scratching on surfaces when you set the phone down. The added thickness casues the back cover to extend just past the lens.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
syngiun said:
Yes the qi back protects the camera lens in terms of keeping the lens from scratching on surfaces when you set the phone down. The added thickness casues the back cover to extend just past the lens.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
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Actually, Ive found that it does not extend past the camera lens, it makes the camera lens functionally flush with the back. Im a little disappointed in this and sort of wish it was "slightly" thicker. If it was, i think i would end up going caseless. I may end up doing what the OP described and going with the regular plugin. The batter last so long, i dont really plug it in except right before bed, and even then, i dont even need to charge it overnight anymore....
After my disastrous experience with Seidio I'm thinking to order the Otterbox Defender and the ProClip car mount (designed specifically for the Defender case) I'm thinking about is available with or without a built in male mini USB for charging. I already have an Incipio Quick Charge 2.0 12v car charger the 12v accessory outlet USB plugin which I could use with the USB end of the ProClip cable.
Trying to think this through I'm wondering if anybody sees a distinct advantage or disadvantage to having the built in mini USB on the phone cradle.
For the way I normally use my phone in the car I don't usually run the battery down to the point charging is necessary although I do charge it. My vehicle's 12v accessory outlet is located on the passenger side of my console low to the floor (terrible location) so I can't unplug the charger while driving unless I was at a stoplight or pulled over. With the built in mini USB the only way to disconnect it is either take the phone out of the cradle which I wouldn't do while driving or disconnect the USB/12v accessory plug (or pull the USB cable out of the plug).
My inclination is to go with a cradle without a mini USB however if someone posts a benefit I haven't thought of to having the mini USB it also makes the aluminum CraigsDock carmount which is only available with a mini USB charging plug a possibility and I like that mount too.
Any thoughts on the subject greatly appreciated!!
mty msi said:
After my disastrous experience with Seidio I'm thinking to order the Otterbox Defender and the ProClip car mount (designed specifically for the Defender case) I'm thinking about is available with or without a built in male mini USB for charging. I already have an Incipio Quick Charge 2.0 12v car charger the 12v accessory outlet USB plugin which I could use with the USB end of the ProClip cable.
Trying to think this through I'm wondering if anybody sees a distinct advantage or disadvantage to having the built in mini USB on the phone cradle.
For the way I normally use my phone in the car I don't usually run the battery down to the point charging is necessary although I do charge it. My vehicle's 12v accessory outlet is located on the passenger side of my console low to the floor (terrible location) so I can't unplug the charger while driving unless I was at a stoplight or pulled over. With the built in mini USB the only way to disconnect it is either take the phone out of the cradle which I wouldn't do while driving or disconnect the USB/12v accessory plug (or pull the USB cable out of the plug).
My inclination is to go with a cradle without a mini USB however if someone posts a benefit I haven't thought of to having the mini USB it also makes the aluminum CraigsDock carmount which is only available with a mini USB charging plug a possibility and I like that mount too.
Any thoughts on the subject greatly appreciated!!
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It seems like you have it mostly covered. However, you stated that you don't really use your battery much while driving-- So i'm just wondering why you would go through all the hassle of trying to figure this out. for myself, personally, I plug in my car charger into the cigarette lighter, and just plug it into my phone before placing on my car mount. But that's just what I do, and is certainly not the only way it can be done. But from what it sounds like, you should be more than okay with your planned idea.
srltzz342 said:
It seems like you have it mostly covered. However, you stated that you don't really use your battery much while driving-- So i'm just wondering why you would go through all the hassle of trying to figure this out. for myself, personally, I plug in my car charger into the cigarette lighter, and just plug it into my phone before placing on my car mount. But that's just what I do, and is certainly not the only way it can be done. But from what it sounds like, you should be more than okay with your planned idea.
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Reason I'm asking for pros/cons on the mini USD built into the phone cradle is I prefer the Craigsdock which only comes with the mini USB. The Craigsdock is milled aluminum vs. the ProClip's plastic, it's universal so I could use it on different vehicles & phones and because its adhesive mounting plate is tiny compared to the ProClip vehicle specific dash mount it would look a lot nicer in my vehicle. The Craigsdock is most likely the last car mount I'd ever have to buy.
What I wasn't sure about is if the phone is left plugged in continually when it's fully charged whether that could cause damage and according to Craig @ Craigsdock it will not.
Below are the links to the two mounts:
http://proclipusa.net/instruction.php?sku=854540
http://www.craigsdocks.com/samsung-galaxy-s3-s4-s5-note-3-4-car-dock/
I decided to go with the Craigsdock and will review it after I've had a chance to use it.
get a wireless charger and dont look back. its awesome. i use an iblason armorbox, an itian wireless charger fixed to the car with 3m scotch outdoor double sided weatherproof tape and the samsung oem qi back. works great.
zurkx said:
get a wireless charger and dont look back. its awesome. i use an iblason armorbox, an itian wireless charger fixed to the car with 3m scotch outdoor double sided weatherproof tape and the samsung oem qi back. works great.
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Reason I'm getting the Craigsmount dock is it will place the phone exactly where I want in my vehicle. Screen will be about 3 inches away from my dash to the right of the steering wheel (not as far away from the dash as the steering wheel is but next to it). Also the Craigsmount will have a cable that keeps the native docking app continually activated. Now all I have to do is figure out how to make the phone's native docking app automatically trigger my Car Home Ultra app and I'm good to go.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KIOSTM4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Absolutely recommend this car mount. And it goes perfect if you have the otterbox defender too!
Never take off my defender when I'm outside, and now when I mount it on my windshield, I never have too.
I've got a plan to install the sony DK48 magnetic dock into my car.
I intend to fix the dock to the top of the dashboard using velcro (so that it can be removed if necessary). I'll bend some thin black acetal plastic rods and glue these onto the dock to stabilise the phone in the dock. I'm going to solder the charging cable onto the cigarette lighter socket, run the cable behind all the fascia panels, the radio and up to the top of the dash.
Anyone got any advice on soldering a usb charging cable onto the cigarette socket. At the moment I'm planning to use the electrics out of a dismantled USB-cigarette socket, but wonder whether it might be better/neater to solder the cable straight to the socket with correct resistors in place, but I'm not sure exactly what I would need.
Anyone got any other advice?
Hoping to get this done sometime next week and will post photos if it all works.
Whoa whoa wait a minute... Sorry if I am reading what you are saying incorrectly but are you saying you want to consider just solder the usb cable directly on to the cigarette lighter and use some resistors to split the voltage so that you will get 5V at the charger??? If that is the case do not do that! A cigarette lighter is 12V so if you can get the resisters to be 7V that means the charger is 5V right? No! It's not that straight forward. Thing is that yes a cigarette lighter is 12V... but it's not a constant 12V. The voltage is just happens to be whatever it is at the time. It ranges from like 10V-15V depending on if your car battery is low or the car is running. When charging the car battery the voltage has to be higher than 12V. I know in my car it's about 14V when running. So when your car is running the cigarette lighter would be 14 and you would be shoving too much voltage into the Z3. Defiantly don't want to fry that expensive Z3!
So yes you defiantly want to keep the circuitry for the car charger. What the circuit does makes it so that it outputs a clean constant 5V with up to 2.1A of current (depending on the model). It cleans up any spikes that may come from the alternator and has safeties on top of that to make sure neither too much voltage or current will end up in your usb port.
Back to your original question. If you can get to the wires right behind the cigarette lighter (behind/under the dash) you could splice into the wires there. There is usually a lot of space you can shove stuff in there. Get something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Female-...ocket-Plug-Connector-Plug-Cable-/271275968209
And just splice it into the wires. Just two wires, cut, strip, solder, tape and done. No disassembling of charger is needed. Plug in your charge to the socket and run it up your dash. Just keep all of that hidden behind all of the panels and no one can tell you even tapped into the cigarette lighter.
Side note: Please please please do not buy a dirt cheap car charger. Like some random $1 eBay charger from China. There is a reason why it's $1. Short answer: the electricity coming out is probably questionable. Also there probably no safety standards. This rule usually applies more to the AC wall adapters (those $1 AC adapters you should avoid like the plague!) but I prefer to live by the same rule. If the electricity coming out of it is dirty then you will be slowly killing your battery quicker than normal. You will start wondering why your battery life is so poor probably like after a year...
Good point about the variable voltage coming out of the car socket. I'll do it the safe way then and use the hardware from a usb/car adapter. The rest *should* be easy.
Just in case anyone is interested I installed the Sony Magnetic Charging dock onto the dashboard of my car. The magnets hold the phone very well, its stable, and hasn't fallen out in 6 months use. I wired a usb cable from the 12 V socket via a 12V - USB adapter as suggested above.
I'm very pleased with the end result and have a neat method of using my phone as a satnav without all the mess of sticking a holder on the window and cables running everywhere. Its also much quicker to place the phone into or out of the magnetic dock than it is to clamp it in a normal holder.
What's the best cord? my cat keeps chewing on mine and i need something strong + fast charging. and under $30
Ever considered a wireless charger? I have 3 cats myself and they leave the wireless charging pad's cord alone because it never moves.
I got sick of peeling open the water seal over the data port every time I wanted to charge the phone, so I bought the samsung charging cover, and got a QI charging pad off of amazon.
Even went as far as getting a QI car charger/phone holder for in my truck since I use the phone as a speedometer + use internet radio.
It's a small investment, but I'll never go back to charging with a cord again. QI is standardized, so any QI standard cover will work with any QI standard charging pad. doesn't matter what device. can be any phone or tablet or other device with a QI charger on board.
I'm not finding clear info on if the V10 is ready to go or needs something added to enable a wireless charging on a wireless charging stand.
I've seen you you can add some kind of antenna to the back cover; when I remove the back cover on mine, there is already one there; but not sure if it is for wireless charging.
Can anyone fill me in?
That's for NFC, Qi wireless charging requires an new replacement back accessory. Just google Qi Wireless, and the NFC/Qi charging requires two Pairs of PIN connectors on the LEFT and RIGHT side of the back cover. By default its only on the RIGHT hand side, which is for NFC only
I bought a wireless charging "sticker" to retrofit my v10 for wireless charging. Installation was a little finicky but totally doable. You remove the existing nfc sticker inside the back cover and replace with one that does nfc and wireless charging. Then it will change with any qi charger.
I tried using it for awhile, but I kind of hate it. You have to line it up perfectly and even then it's incredibly slow. Misalign and it gets hot but slowly discharges the battery. I never use it.
lexelby said:
I bought a wireless charging "sticker" to retrofit my v10 for wireless charging. Installation was a little finicky but totally doable. You remove the existing nfc sticker inside the back cover and replace with one that does nfc and wireless charging. Then it will change with any qi charger.
I tried using it for awhile, but I kind of hate it. You have to line it up perfectly and even then it's incredibly slow. Misalign and it gets hot but slowly discharges the battery. I never use it.
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I had the same experience. I tried it but it is slow and the phone gets hot. I never use it anymore.
I have a Qi replacement back, and it was awesome. But after a year it keeps turning off and my Tylt charger will blink red, wake the phone up, start charging. It'll get to 100% over night, but I don't like it.
I am currently using: LG Wireless Charging Backcase CPR-120 für V10 schwarz, CPR-120.AGEUBK (from amazon.de) together with Samsung EP-PA510BWEGWW Wireless Charging Plate Mini - White and this is working fine. I did try a cheap backcase from e-bay but that one started falling apart (first some cracks and then pieces around crack fell off) so not bothered to try any others.