I bought Samsung Galaxy SGH-T959W from Kijiji for couple of days it worked fine but when I installed games in it last night and today I woke up and phone wasn't working so I tried to run it using volume up+power key no luck, then I tried using down volume+power it shows download screen please check the screenshots
I can't access the phone, how can I fix the problem?
Try turning on normally, if it reboots good if not go back to download , get heimdall one click from sticky thread and start over..
sent from my t959w running Beanstalkv2
The above post is incorrect... Read this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=33275008
The One-Click thread referenced in the post above is for the T959V. The triangle screen in the pic you posted is an alternative download mode.
I've had issues with my USB connector being broken and it would randomly go into download mode when I would plug it in. It stopped charging altogether one day.
Thanks for the reply.
I can't get Windows 7 to detect my phone, I even installed Samsung Kies mini but no luck. Please check the screenshot if you could guide me that would be great.
wolfin2010 said:
Thanks for the reply.
I can't get Windows 7 to detect my phone, I even installed Samsung Kies mini but no luck. Please check the screenshot if you could guide me that would be great.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've had similar problems with Windows 7 recognizing this device. In the end I could not fix the issue, so I now dual boot Ubuntu 13.04 for anything Android-related.
cpkelley94 said:
I've had similar problems with Windows 7 recognizing this device. In the end I could not fix the issue, so I now dual boot Ubuntu 13.04 for anything Android-related.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I try doing it on Windows XP do you think it will work?
wolfin2010 said:
If I try doing it on Windows XP do you think it will work?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can try, I don't know if it will help.
Sent from my SGH-T959V using xda app-developers app
Thanks for the tip cpkelley94
I'm able to detect the device in Windows XP, Now I got another problem, after loading the packing when I click on "Start" for flashing the device. it gives me an error ERROR: Failed to access device. libusb error: -12
Any word of wisdom will be appreciated
Related
Ok so 3days ago I was flashing a new ROM and something went horribly wrong...lol. I'm NOT blaming the dev or anything like that.. Im in red CWM, I did do an Android back up, wipe data/factory reset, wipe cache partition and wipe dalvik cache. The continued to flash the rom, that went good or so I though. Next I went to flash the gapps, so I mounted the system and flashed. I forgot to unmount after i got done and restated the phone. It comes up with SAMSUNG and stays.. I can still get into Recovery, But can't get to download mode the normal way(pull battery, hold vol keys, plug in USB,insert battery) I can however get there through the Advance menu in CWM.
SO HERES WHAT IVE DONE SO FAR WITH NO LUCK......
Tried odin in windows vista but drivers would not work
Fresh install of vista and keies ---NO
so next I partitioned about 25gb of my HDD and loaded Ubuntu 12.04 loaded up JDK,Wine, SDK, and Tried Heimdall one click.
Also have another computer with Fedora and that didnt work. (I'm NOT that good with linux so I may be doing something wrong(I also have team viewer IF someone can help that way)
I know that this can be fixed but I dont know what else to do. Ive searched these fourms and tips and trick and nothing has seemd to work. 6 different machines 4 different OS's and 3 different cables...
Any advice WILL GREATLY BE APPRECIATED Thank You
Have you tried one click to stock method?
Check my signature for qkster one click methods...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1629079
I did try the one click in vista/xp and was having trouble with the driver part.. windows would say "Unknown Device" but when I tried to load the drivers through the software i'd get failure to install driver. I'm Downloading a new one now just to be on the safe side.
Is there anything while In Ubuntu I can check as far as USB issues???
Bryan583 said:
I did try the one click in vista/xp and was having trouble with the driver part.. windows would say "Unknown Device" but when I tried to load the drivers through the software i'd get failure to install driver. I'm Downloading a new one now just to be on the safe side.
Is there anything while In Ubuntu I can check as far as USB issues???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
any luck...?
bigjoe2675 said:
any luck...?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nope.... lol(kinda) in windows vista (fresh install) i plug the phone in and get unknown device...i try to load the drivers manually (samsung android composite device) then i get error 19 in device manager. So I tried to load the drivers from zadig and I get failed Resource already exists.
Any Suggestions??
Bigjoe's comment is the method I used to unbrick my infuse 2 out of 3 times
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using XDA
Bryan583 said:
nope.... lol(kinda) in windows vista (fresh install) i plug the phone in and get unknown device...i try to load the drivers manually (samsung android composite device) then i get error 19 in device manager. So I tried to load the drivers from zadig and I get failed Resource already exists.
Any Suggestions??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
have you tried the kies drivers...that are used more for odin?
with the one click heimdall....did you click the options on the drivers window that pops up..and click list all devices...then you should see the drivers and click install...?
bigjoe2675 said:
have you tried the kies drivers...that are used more for odin?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
had kies installed for both then uninstalled for one click....either way I still get "Unkown Device" when plugged in.... I'm gonna load one of my PC's with windows 7 tomorrow and see if that helps..
I really appreciate the help, at some point either my phone or I am gonna crack.....lol
Bryan583 said:
had kies installed for both then uninstalled for one click....either way I still get "Unkown Device" when plugged in.... I'm gonna load one of my PC's with windows 7 tomorrow and see if that helps..
I really appreciate the help, at some point either my phone or I am gonna crack.....lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just use heimdall it will solve your problems lol
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using XDA
kidki14 said:
Just use heimdall it will solve your problems lol
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats what im using
What I really dont get is why it wont work in either flavor of linux or even a live cd that I've tried.
Bryan583 said:
thats what im using
What I really dont get is why it wont work in either flavor of linux or even a live cd that I've tried.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm I really can't say I use windows 7 I think it works better with windows in my opinion.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using XDA
kidki14 said:
Hmm I really can't say I use windows 7 I think it works better with windows in my opinion.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Heimdall works just fine in Windows 7.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
Both odin & heimdall work great on my winder 7, 64 biter...
The task was finding and id`ing that cable that does the trick...
and keeping it at the pc....
kidki14 said:
Hmm I really can't say I use windows 7 I think it works better with windows in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oops, I read too fast. You were already saying that it works in Windows. Heimdall works well in Linux too, though, and Odin doesn't.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
That's quite alright lol and Odin bricked my phone but saved it when I rooted it
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using XDA
bigjoe2675 said:
Both odin & heimdall work great on my winder 7, 64 biter...
The task was finding and id`ing that cable that does the trick...
and keeping it at the pc....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SO I should keep trying with the same setup but keep changing the cables??
I loaded win7 home premium 64 and that's still a no go...still receive "Unkown Device" error then when I go into device manager and chage the driver manually to Samsung Android Composite Device I get an error 10 can not start device.
Any recommendations on a cable??
Bryan583 said:
SO I should keep trying with the same setup but keep changing the cables??
I loaded win7 home premium 64 and that's still a no go...still receive "Unkown Device" error then when I go into device manager and chage the driver manually to Samsung Android Composite Device I get an error 10 can not start device.
Any recommendations on a cable??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i have the same os for windows, i never have gone to manually install drivers, are you using the heimdall drivers...the zidag window should open them you click options...list all devices, click install drivers
bigjoe2675 said:
i have the same os for windows, i never have gone to manually install drivers, are you using the heimdall drivers...the zidag window should open them you click options...list all devices, click install drivers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I plug it in, windows comes up and says "Unknown Device" so when I open zadig to install drivers, and click on display all, then check the drop box there is no Samsung Android Composite Device..
I know this may be a stupid question, but is there a zip pkg like the HTC phones have that will re partition and flash the phone.??
He could also look into getting a USB jig
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using XDA
kidki14 said:
He could also look into getting a USB jig
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've seen them on flea bay, how do they work actually?
Ok so i searched and searched and searched but found similar issues but not my issue. I was flashing a rom and it went into a boot loop. I went to get out of it and it wouldnt let me so i used a 1 touch odin download. When i plugged it in my computer recognized the phone i clicked start and it failed because my phone stopped being recognized by my computer. (i can get into download mode with no issue.) Now when i plug it in it just says usb device not recognized. I have uninstalled reinstalled drivers several times. tried multiple cables multiple computers. It also says gadget serial in the device name when its trying to auto find the driver... strange. I just need my phone back together lol. I was working on this til 3 am last night and had to run to walmart to get a cheap alarm clock to wake me up for work this morning at 6 any help is appreciated
trithumb said:
Ok so i searched and searched and searched but found similar issues but not my issue. I was flashing a rom and it went into a boot loop. I went to get out of it and it wouldnt let me so i used a 1 touch odin download. When i plugged it in my computer recognized the phone i clicked start and it failed because my phone stopped being recognized by my computer. Now when i plug it in it just says usb device not recognized. I have uninstalled reinstalled drivers several times. tried multiple cables multiple computers. It also says gadget serial in the device name when its trying to auto find the driver... strange. I just need my phone back together lol. I was working on this til 3 am last night and had to run to walmart to get a cheap alarm clock to wake me up for work this morning at 6 any help is appreciated
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to try the one click heimdall package by Bhundven in the development section
brandonc0526 said:
You need to try the one click heimdall package by Bhundven in the development section
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
isnt that a mac only program? if not can you get me a link. Im juggling fixing this while working lol
no is for windows and please dont ask in the dev section
solrac1212 said:
no is for windows and please dont ask in the dev section
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
oops sorry didnt realize i was in the dev section
Not to be a ****, but I am reporting this thread to the mods and asking them to move it to the q&a section.
To fix your issue, using my odin 1 click (gremlin remover), start the 1-click, then boot into dl mode. If device still isn't recognized, go into device manager right click on the device and update drivers manually. Reboot phone into dl mode and all should be well.
Also once you reinstall drivers or update them, reboot your computer. That always helps the computer recognize my phone when I have this issue. Good luck.
Try another cable and usb port.
eollie said:
Try another cable and usb port.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
again in the main post. I tried multiple computers multiple cables and all the usb ports on all 4 of my laptops
Start Oden first then plug in the phone give Oden a second to find the phone. When the box on the upper left turn yellow then you can start. Directions work for both one click GR and regular Oden.
Sent from my SGH-T959V using xda app-developers app
under device manager it shows error code 43 on "unknown device" no matter how i install or dont install drivers... use kies or not use kies... let windows find it or not.... just doesnt work
brighter minds than min here, but "one-click" and "odin" are different routes to the same end, aren't they? But if you start with heimdall and that fails, you will likely get the drivers issue when you try odin. I suggest opening device manager on your Win machine and removing all drivers related to the phone as storage device or whatever. Then reboot your machine. When you get to your desktop, open odin (my preferred tool), then with your phone powered down, hold vol-up+vol-down together and connect the phone to your usb cable. Win should find the drivers and load them, and odin should see your phone.
Gonna steal something from lumin30 here.
* * If you have used your phone on every USB Port and/or have no idea where all you have plugged your phone into or used ODIN or Heimdall with - Download [usbdeview-x32.zip] for 32-bit operating systems or [usbdeview-x64.zip] for 64-bit operating systems. Uninstall anything you see that has Samsung and Android related.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is from this guide here. I suggest following post two to get everything fixed.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=21953878
Hello all,
Firstly thank you for the great development and help the community is providing for GS4G. From the time I bought this phone (few weeks ago), I have been playing around with different ROMs. I try GB roms and ICS roms every now and then. Always go back to GB using 1 Click's.
Yesterday when I was going the 1-Click Heimdall, it failed in between with some error. After this, I am unable to boot into the OS or recovery or download mode. It comes to a screen which tells me that the firmware upgrade was interrupted and asks me to use recovery in Kies. I tried this, but Kies does not even recognize my phone anymore. Windows shows my phone as "unknown device". I tried uninstalling and re-installing Kies, but still no use. I hope there is some way to get my phone back.
I read somewhere about a USB Jig that could get you into download mode. I have ordered it from Amazon and it may take a couple of days. Meanwhile, if any of you can help, it would be great. Thanks!
youre soft bricked, this is fixable. The firmware upgrade interrupted screen is the same thing as download mode. try reinstalling the drivers which i think are found in the sgs4g BIBLE thread. after that, plug in your phone and make it go to the firmware upgrade interrupted screen and see if it installs the drivers. read lumin's guide. it explains everything step by step. im going to try to link it here soon.
EDIT: [GUIDES] Fresh out of box Galaxy S 4G | Heimdall One-Click For Dummies
this is lumin30's guide not mine, i just linked it. thank him.
gs_0523 said:
youre soft bricked, this is fixable. The firmware upgrade interrupted screen is the same thing as download mode. try reinstalling the drivers which i think are found in the sgs4g BIBLE thread. after that, plug in your phone and make it go to the firmware upgrade interrupted screen and see if it installs the drivers. read lumin's guide. it explains everything step by step. im going to try to link it here soon.
EDIT: [GUIDES] Fresh out of box Galaxy S 4G | Heimdall One-Click For Dummies
this is lumin30's guide not mine, i just linked it. thank him.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. I had tried eollie's Heimdall Stock KJ6 + Root. But, I don't remember seeing the driver installation window show up. I tried reinstalling the drivers through Kies couple of times and re-booting. But, still didn't work. I will try what you suggested when I get home.
You should be able to fix it. Goodluck
When you are using the heimdall 1 click does zadig not recognize your phone?
Sent from my SGH-T959V using xda premium
TwitchyEye said:
When you are using the heimdall 1 click does zadig not recognize your phone?
Sent from my SGH-T959V using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I connect my phone, Heimdall does nothing but says "disconnected". Windows shows that "a device has malfunctioned" and shows "unknown device connected".
Do you have the full heimdall?
Sent from my SGH-T959V using xda premium
TwitchyEye said:
Do you have the full heimdall?
Sent from my SGH-T959V using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used this Heimdall - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1822626
I do remember installing drivers through this Heimdall before when the phone was working.
pmattie said:
Windows shows that "a device has malfunctioned" and shows "unknown device connected".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like you need to run zadig.exe in the Drivers folder of the Windows distribution of Heimdall.
If that doesn't work, right-click on (My) Computer, select Manage, then select Device Manager. In the panel that opens, find your device, right-click on it and you can then look at its properties and potential change the driver there.
(Yes, this kind of shenanigans is another of the reasons I really dislike Windows)
Ok so what you should try is downloading the heimdall suite
https://github.com/Benjamin-Dobell/Heimdall/downloads
Extract and open the drivers folder and run zadig. Click devices/show all devices and if your phone is plugged in and in download mode it should see it. Install drivers and it should say drivers successfully installed. Then run your one-click jar file and it should work.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1358498
The downloads in this post will also get you where you wanna go
Somebody tell me if I led this guy wrong
Lol ya beat me to it!
Sent from my SGH-T959V using xda premium
TwitchyEye said:
Ok so what you should try is downloading the heimdall suite
https://github.com/Benjamin-Dobell/Heimdall/downloads
Extract and open the drivers folder and run zadig. Click devices/show all devices and if your phone is plugged in and in download mode it should see it. Install drivers and it should say drivers successfully installed. Then run your one-click jar file and it should work.
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried all this. But, still Zadig shows my phone as "unknown device" and does not install drivers for it. Tried USBDview to remove any instance of Samsung & Android from the drivers. But, still does not recognize my device. Any other suggestions.
Try different USB ports on your computer.
Install Ubuntu (not totally kidding on that one, it will install side-by-side with Windows)
When is that jig getting there? One time I had a similar situation and I built myself a jig and it worked like a charm. Phone goes straight into download mode. I dunno if this will resolve your situation but I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time we've seen someone with this problem and then after trying several different computers and USB cables we usually say maybe your phone's USB Jack is messed up? And then the thread goes dead.
Sent from my SGH-T959V using xda premium
Have you uninstalled any drivers? Download and install the drivers from the bible thread if you haven't. Like suggested, try different USB ports and different USB cables. Sometimes it takes more than one try for some reason.
pmattie said:
Any other suggestions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you rebooted your comp at all?? If no that might be the problem.
SUCCESS !!
Thanks a lot for all your suggestions.
Here is what worked:
- I opened device manager and uninstalled ALL USB devices (Yes ALL, not just Samsung, Android etc) and unfamiliar Storage devices.
- Then I rebooted once so that all other device drivers could be installed.
- Then I rebooted a second time and let it install any remaining drivers.
- Then I plugged in the phone and it installed the driver and now it started showing the correct device name
- Now, I ran the Heimdall 1-click and it opened offered to re-install drivers. I did this.
- After all this, I was able to get 1-Click GB rom installed and now back to VB.
(I think the key was "uninstall all USB devices" and "reboot TWICE")
glad you got it to work. ive had my share of soft bricks with this device and it always takes something different to get it to run right. im starting to think that my computer is alive because of this reason because it just doesnt like to play nice sometimes. LOL
I have a GT-P3113 and I cannot get the drivers to install on my Windows 8 64bit or my Windows 7 32bit pc's. I get an unknown device error and no matter what I do I cannot get it to connect. I have a Galaxy Note 2 which I have not had any issues with but I need to root my tablet so I can remove some apps for my daughters. Please help me as I have spent the last 2 hours on google and here trying everything to get this to be fixed.
nottoosmart said:
I have a GT-P3113 and I cannot get the drivers to install on my Windows 8 64bit or my Windows 7 32bit pc's. I get an unknown device error and no matter what I do I cannot get it to connect. I have a Galaxy Note 2 which I have not had any issues with but I need to root my tablet so I can remove some apps for my daughters. Please help me as I have spent the last 2 hours on google and here trying everything to get this to be fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See install kies thats what I will do else indnt knw why u have ur prob
qazmed said:
See install kies thats what I will do else indnt knw why u have ur prob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont know how many times I have installed and reinstalled Kies and Windows trying to get this thing to work. No matter what I do I cannot get the damn thing to recognize by any pc. Does anyone know of a way to install CWM or TWRP from Stock recovery with files from External SD card. Im at my wits end and im ready to throw this thing across the room.
Try uninstalling Lies using an uninstaller app like Revo. This will help make sure you have all references wiped from your computer. Reboot your computer then reinstall Kies. Do you have your tablet set on "USB debugging"? The other remote possibility is a bad cord. I am running Win 8 64 bit and didn't have any trouble. Thank if this helps.
Sent from my GT-P3113 using XDA Premium HD app
Unplug the device. Hold down the volume down and power buttons and wait. Don't let go of them. The device will take a screenshot, but will after turn off. Let go once you see a screen talking about installing custom os's. Press the button that says yes (I think it is volume up) and it will say 'downloading' with a picture of an android. Plug in your device and then try.
Hope this helps!
I have Samsung Galaxt Tab 2 7". Yesterday to install custom firmware, I flashed some wrong recovery on it.
Now, when I turn it on it is stuck on Samsung Initial boot logo and stays there as long as possible.
If I turn it off and bring it to download mode (Press and Hold Power and Down Volume Key), it comes into download more but when connected to PC, it says USB Device Not Recognized.
I tried charging my Tab whole night, it became warm and till morning it was warm only. Now I am completely stuck and don't know what to do.
Is there any solution for this? Is there any button combination which can take the tab at-least to stock android?
Since USB is not been recognized, so I am helpless to do anything here.
Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
anshumangoyal said:
I have Samsung Galaxt Tab 2 7". Yesterday to install custom firmware, I flashed some wrong recovery on it.
Now, when I turn it on it is stuck on Samsung Initial boot logo and stays there as long as possible.
If I turn it off and bring it to download mode (Press and Hold Power and Down Volume Key), it comes into download more but when connected to PC, it says USB Device Not Recognized.
I tried charging my Tab whole night, it became warm and till morning it was warm only. Now I am completely stuck and don't know what to do.
Is there any solution for this? Is there any button combination which can take the tab at-least to stock android?
Since USB is not been recognized, so I am helpless to do anything here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hm, Odin needs Samsung USB Drivers to be able to recognize device, did you already install them?
If not, you can download it here.
(If you're using Windows 8, tell me, because you will need some special method to install the drivers.)
fr4n said:
Hm, Odin needs Samsung USB Drivers to be able to recognize device, did you already install them?
If not, you can download it here.
(If you're using Windows 8, tell me, because you will need some special method to install the drivers.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, I have tried and it is the same. Yes, I am using Windows 8. Please let me know what special things needs to be done with this.
Thanks again. Your English is better than me, though it is also not my first language :laugh:
anshumangoyal said:
Thanks, I have tried and it is the same. Yes, I am using Windows 8. Please let me know what special things needs to be done with this.
Thanks again. Your English is better than me, though it is also not my first language :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bet you tried to run the .exe file and the installation didn't even start, no? xD
Follow installation method 3 explained in this thread.
If you can't do it, let me know and I can help you!
I'm not pretty good with English too... I know only basic skills, but I bet I can't go to English-speaking countries with them :laugh:
fr4n said:
I bet you tried to run the .exe file and the installation didn't even start, no? xD
Follow installation method 3 explained in this thread.
If you can't do it, let me know and I can help you!
I'm not pretty good with English too... I know only basic skills, but I bet I can't go to English-speaking countries with them :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I followed all steps. But still I am getting my USB Device is not been recognized. It is showing "Unknown USB Device (Device Descriptor Request Failed)"
Till now I am unable to find any solution.
anshumangoyal said:
I followed all steps. But still I am getting my USB Device is not been recognized. It is showing "Unknown USB Device (Device Descriptor Request Failed)"
Till now I am unable to find any solution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hm, that was totally unexpected.
I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds like your board got damaged. But if the board was damaged, it won't ever turn on. So my mind is a bit twisted here.
I will try to look for solutions. For now, you're stuck with a paperweight :s
anshumangoyal said:
I followed all steps. But still I am getting my USB Device is not been recognized. It is showing "Unknown USB Device (Device Descriptor Request Failed)"
Till now I am unable to find any solution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have a Linux computer? Of you do, PM me and I will send you instructions that you can try to follow.
Sent from my SGH-T989
jrc2 said:
Do you have a Linux computer? Of you do, PM me and I will send you instructions that you can try to follow.
Sent from my SGH-T989
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have a linux computer. But I can install a virtual machine for that. Can you please send me instructions how to do that. Thanks again.
anshumangoyal said:
I don't have a linux computer. But I can install a virtual machine for that. Can you please send me instructions how to do that. Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, I must have missed this post. I don't know if a VM will work or not. I think the problem is windows 8 as there have been lots of problems reported with Odin and Heimdall (probably the drivers) on windows 8.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk
EDIT: I have a thread in the general section for the tab 2 on rooting in Linux. Do everything up until flashing SuperSU. That thread has the instructions on how to install recovery. Still do it with no reboot checked and manually boot into recovery and wipe cache and Dalvik cache. Hope this helps!
EDIT 2: Here is the link to the thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2828080