To all the Devs:
What do you all think will be your biggest hurdle to overcome with the advent of the Honeycomb ROM? I tend to think the two gnarliest parts will be the video and the accelerometer.
Just curious as I'd like to try dipping my feet into the ROM cooking waters and was wondering what y'all most have the problems with.
Not a dev, but:
Storage management may be a biggie. Honeycomb apparently changed from fixed allocations to dynamic storage management. Motorola is trying get Android to create a mod for them and their Xoom so the microsd works. Question may be is the space treated as a total of the storage or its own logical location? If the former, the card will not be able to be removed, since part of the storage total system (some data and media will be on the card, some on internal, but no based on location).
rushless said:
Not a dev, but:
Storage management may be a biggie. Honeycomb apparently changed from fixed allocations to dynamic storage management. Motorola is trying get Android to create a mod for them and their Xoom so the microsd works. Question may be is the space treated as a total of the storage or its own logical location? If the former, the card will not be able to be removed, since part of the storage total system (some data and media will be on the card, some on internal, but no based on location).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now I somewhat understand why iDevices haven't had a SDCard slot and why WP7 devices have non-removable SDCards.
Why exactly is it so difficult to have dynamic storage management, alongside a SDCard with it's own logical location? Would that maybe create issues for each specific vendor or make it so Honeycomb would have to be more tailored for different configurations of devices?
Is it that much different from say, Windows 7 or Linux being on a drive, able to use as much space as possible on that drive but allowing for usb storage and sd card storage on drives of their own?
Any thoughts about the advantages/disadvantages of MTP over mass storage? Some custom ICS ROMs only allow the default MTP, and it is likely the stock ICS will do the same.
For me, here are the advantages of each one:
MTP:
1. Can copy files over (like APKs) and then access on them on the device without mounting/unmounting
2. File transfer is available immediately when plugged in without having to mount
Mass storage:
1. Better security since you have to get past the lock screen to mount
2. Is actually a real drive in Windows, so you can do all operations normally
On second look, the internal storage does not show up in Windows until the phone is unlocked. So scratch out advantage #2 for mass storage.
When google finalizes config for ics in nexus s, your /sdcard partition will mount as USB mass storage just like it always has.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using XDA App
Noticed it is much slower than mass storage.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk
galaxy nexus doesn't have UMS so it's easy to understand that ICS source now don't support UMS, still we will have UMS for nexus s in near future
Possible to repartition Nexus S like Galaxy Nexus?
For future reference, here's Google's statement on the matter, courtesy of Dan Morrill:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/21/ice-cream-sandwich-supports-usb-mass-storage-after-all-galaxy-n/
---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------
oakamil said:
Any thoughts about the advantages/disadvantages of MTP over mass storage? Some custom ICS ROMs only allow the default MTP, and it is likely the stock ICS will do the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After considering the trade-offs, I think it's clear to me that I would prefer a partition structure like the Galaxy Nexus, as I can easily deal with MTP-only PC access in exchange for more space on the data partition.
Thus, I wonder has anyone found a way to repartition their Galaxy S to be like a Galaxy Nexus, such that all 16GB of internal memory is data storage and there exists no separate USB storage partition?
Once the repartitioning has been performed, what other modifications might be necessary (to the recovery, ROM, etc)?
Thanks!
SIDE QUESTION: Where can I find the MTP drivers for my Nexus S? I run Windows 7 and I have ICS on my Nexus S.
Nothing changes for Nexus S, UMS stays as it is.
ICS supports both.
Galaxy Nexus (and newer devices) will have MTP only.
madd0g said:
Nothing changes for Nexus S, UMS stays as it is.
ICS supports both.
Galaxy Nexus (and newer devices) will have MTP only.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Humm.... But Windows does not recognize the USB storage. I don't see the "mount/unmount" option in Storage params. menu in ICS... Am I doing something wrong!?!?!
SalsaForte said:
Humm.... But Windows does not recognize the USB storage. I don't see the "mount/unmount" option in Storage params. menu in ICS... Am I doing something wrong!?!?!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since we are using the sources from Galaxy Nexus, UMS support is limited to a few ROMs with some hacks (like kwiboo's, it has UMS). When we get an official release, things will become simpler.
-1
formula84 said:
Noticed it is much slower than mass storage.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that is what i hate the most about MTP
MTP tunnels also has limited format support, the driver determines which file formats are allowed and which are not
usually they block all DRM signed contents
you do not get an error message, the transfer bar will just get stuck at the same percentage forever ...
... well you do get an error message after like an hour waiting for it to finish, and you get the time out message
Hey guys , i know some people say that MTP is faster than usb storage. But on my own experiance things take about 3 to 4 times more time to copy over.
If someone can point me to which drivers they use to see if i can probably install them cause i find it really slow and my device Gets recognized fine.
I know people complained about MTP a lot, but I really miss having it now that I'm not using beezy's SDK port. it was really nice that it auto-mounts, and allows you to access the storage from your pc and your phone simultaneously, and it transferred about 5x faster for me than MSD does....the only complaint I had is my ps3 couldn't read it because it wasn't a true storage drive. Honestly, though, for me, the benefits FAR outweighed the drawbacks.
I agree with the guy above. It was ultra convenient. Now I use airDroid for all of the above...
Sent from my Nexus S 4G
david279 said:
I agree with the guy above. It was ultra convenient. Now I use airDroid for all of the above...
Sent from my Nexus S 4G
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll check that one out, thanks!! I've been looking for an alternative until someone builds a rom with MTP again
I'm also missing MTP on my Nexus S. Any hacks or ROMs known how to get it back?
I prefer UMS over MTP
Since I theoretically have a total of 48 GB of storage on my phone, I'd benefit from the speed of UMS. I regularly transfer 1080p movies and stuff to and from my Galaxy SII. Also, I could organise files very easily and quickly.
However, after upgrading from Gingerbread 2.3.4 to Ice Cream Sandwich 4.0.3, the UMS function has disappeared forever. I could go back to GB, but I don't want to do that.
i hate mtp... can't transfer large files :-(
oakamil said:
Any thoughts about the advantages/disadvantages of MTP over mass storage? Some custom ICS ROMs only allow the default MTP, and it is likely the stock ICS will do the same.
For me, here are the advantages of each one:
MTP:
1. Can copy files over (like APKs) and then access on them on the device without mounting/unmounting
2. File transfer is available immediately when plugged in without having to mount
Mass storage:
1. Better security since you have to get past the lock screen to mount
2. Is actually a real drive in Windows, so you can do all operations normally
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ICS allows Mass Storage Mode when possible at block level. And for both MTP and UMC you have to unlock the screen first to view it on the computer.
DA6030 said:
Thus, I wonder has anyone found a way to repartition their Galaxy S to be like a Galaxy Nexus, such that all 16GB of internal memory is data storage and there exists no separate USB storage partition?
Once the repartitioning has been performed, what other modifications might be necessary (to the recovery, ROM, etc)?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure but, I don't think that would be possible, because depends too much on hardware level. Just take a look at GT-I9100 Pit analysis.
vantt1 said:
Since I theoretically have a total of 48 GB of storage on my phone, I'd benefit from the speed of UMS. I regularly transfer 1080p movies and stuff to and from my Galaxy SII. Also, I could organise files very easily and quickly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If the android device had UMS, surely you couldn't copy there some of your 1080p movies, because the sdcard will be formatted in FAT32 instead of EXT4, so no bigger files than 4 GB.
MTP uses the native filesystem on which the partition was formatted, so in this particular case of large files it's an advantage for you.
Anyway, if both the data and sdcard are physically the same partition, you won't ever be able to achieve USM because you just can't mount only a part of a partition at block level device, if you know what I mean. You could do it only, if possible, at recovery mode where the top level partition (root, /) is not mounted.
Read more here:
[GUIDE] MTP and PTP (Media Transfer Protocol) vs UMC (Mass Storage Class)
I'm having huge problems on a Sony device since updating to ICS. One of my paid apps is for syncing specific content and the devs said it's related to the MTP standard in ICS+, that UMS is much better for the task.
I bought my phone to replace my iPod, it's fairly well-featured for the job. But unless I fix this MTP problem, I may go back to Gingerbread.
Here I will post the advantages and disadvantages of the two.
Advantages of UMC
UMC works at block level. It means that you access the partition from the operating system like if were local, and you have complete control of it.
For the previous reason, UMC keeps timestamps for files and folders. This is specially important for pictures, photos or videos that don't have EXIF, where you rely on file creation or modification time to arrange them and to know when were taken. MTP sets for all transferred files current system time, thus overwritting the real creation or modification time and ruining your gallery.
UMC allows the use of recovery software (Recuva) or partition software (Easeus Partition Master) and even format with a different filesystem. Without UMC you have to use android side software that usually is less powerful, needs a rooted phone, etc.
As you have total access to the partition, you can access all files there, even hidden, system, etc. With MTP you only have access to the files that the controlling operating system (android) wants. For example, with MTP, files starting with dot (.file) are not accessible. Some file formats are not allowed.
UMC is compatible with any operating system that allows connecting a FAT32 / exFAT pendrive, while MTP requires specific support. Linux and OS X may have built-in support or not.
With UMC you directly access the files, so modification is instant, and viewing. On the other side, with MTP you download it, modify it and re-upload the edited version, but you never do it directly. Even to play files you need to completely download it first. Imagine downloading a 5 GB MKV.
UMC is always the same, while for MTP there are several implementations: MTP, MTPZ (Microsoft Zune), Sony SonicStage, Apple DMAP.
UMC is faster than MTP because requires less time to initialize transfer, but isn't that big difference for an average user. The higher the number of files to be transferred and the lower the size of each file, the higher the ratio MTP/UMC.
Advantages of MTP or PTP
In MTP mode, the android device controls the input/output to the filesystem, so there is no risk of data loss because of cold disconnecting the device from USB. You work on a layer over the filesystem. With UMC you must be careful.
MTP allows you to use the sdcard from both the android phone and the computer at the same time, even to any desired number of them. On the other side, with UMC you only can do it from a device at a time, meaning that you have to unmount the sdcard from the android to view it on the computer, stopping apps, etc. Of course there are software that can force viewing UMC from both sides, but is a highway to corruption.
MTP does not show the native filesystem to the computer (it uses a hierarchery simulated by the MTP driver), so it will always be compatible. For example, on devices with the same partition for data and sdcard (like Galaxy Nexus, Galaxy S3) you are writing from the computer to an ext4 partition and you don't need windows to support it. The same if the device partition were in any imaginable filesystem, the MTP will show you it in a standard hierarchy. On the other side, with UMC your local operating system (windows, linux, mac) must support natively the filesystem of the partition or download some software that allows you to do it.
With MTP you use all capabilities and disadvantages of the device filesystem. If the filesystem is in ext4 you can copy files over 4GB to the device, that you couldn't in UMC mode because usually it will come formatted in FAT32, that is the most compatible fs for all operating systems.
MTP enables Windows Media DRM, UMC doesn't.
MTP allows the use of password for accessing the files (on compatible devices). On the other side, with UMC, of course you could use powerful tools like TrueCrypt, but you need the corresponding software on android that reads it.
How to preserve timestamps
- Use File Timestamp app. Root is required, and works recursively too.
- Use Mass Storage Mode when possible.
- zip or tar the files when sending them to the phone or receiving from.
- If the device has external sd, you can use it as a man in the middle.
- samba (smb protocol) allows preservation of timestamps, however applications for android don't support it.
- FTP allows preservation of timestamps, however applications for android don't support it.
- NFS allows preservation of timestamps, however couldn't get any application for android working properly (Servers Ultimate Pro).
- Rsync allows preservation of timestamps, however couldn't get any application for android working properly (Servers Ultimate Pro).
- adb push and pull does not preserve timestamps. Furthermore doesn't work recursively with folders.
- MTP does not preserve timestamps.
- Cloud services like Google Drive, Dropbox, etc. usually never preserve timestamps.
Questions and answers
Is possible to implement MTP on "put here your device"?Possibly yes, if has USB. MTP works on software side, so updating your rom or installing a new one will do the job
Is possible to implement UMC on "put here your device"?That depends on hardware mainly. If the internal sdcard and the data folders belong to the same partition, you can't. The reason is that you can't enable access to a part of a partition at block level, the whole or nothing. This is the case for Galaxy Nexus and Galaxy S3, in order to take advantage of all space, and discard the case where you have filled a partition and the other plenty of space.
Dan Morill said:
It isn't physically possible to support UMS on devices that don't have a dedicated partition for storage (like a removable SD card, or a separate partition like Nexus S.) This is because UMS is a block-level protocol that gives the host PC direct access to the physical blocks on the storage, so that Android cannot have it mounted at the same time.
With the unified storage model we introduced in Honeycomb, we share your full 32GB (or 16GB or whatever) between app data and media data. That is, no more staring sadly at your 5GB free on Nexus S when your internal app data partition has filled up -- it's all one big happy volume.
However the cost is that Android can no longer ever yield up the storage for the host PC to molest directly over USB. Instead we use MTP. On Windows (which the majority of users use), it has built-in MTP support in Explorer that makes it look exactly like a disk. On Linux and Mac it's sadly not as easy, but I have confidence that we'll see some work to make this better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sources:
Easy UMS, USB Mass Storage and Media Transfer Protocol – XDA Developer TV
DifferenceBetween: Difference Between MTP and MSC
Directions on Microsoft: What is MTP?
CrackBerry: On startup - Media Transfer Protocol
Ice Cream Sandwich supports USB mass storage after all, Galaxy Nexus does not
Issues and questions:
[Q] Hidden folders through Android MTP
Nexus 4 not showing files via MTP
[Q][MTP] Certain files/directories hidden to windows file manager?
Connecting to PC files are different!
MTP and hidden files
[Q] Hidden files and MTP/Windows
[Q] Do the S3 still using 2gb partition for data and 12 as virtual sd?
Just got meself a Nexus 7... But!
Upload to dropbox: file timestamps should be preserved
Android File Transfer - For Mac users only
Thanks for this guide !
If I understand this correctly, then devices like the Asus Transformer Eee Pad (TF300T) which has a 16GB or 32GB internal storage, PLUS a microSD card (and standard SD card slot when docked) could use UMC, if the manufacturer made it so (which they haven't), right?
invertedskull said:
If I understand this correctly, then devices like the Asus Transformer Eee Pad (TF300T) which has a 16GB or 32GB internal storage, PLUS a microSD card (and standard SD card slot when docked) could use UMC, if the manufacturer made it so (which they haven't), right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The UMC should appear then for the microsd, which you can physically remove from the phone, plus the dock if existent.
For the 16/32 GB internal storage it depends if there is a dedicated partition for internal sdcard. Check it for the Eee Pad.
Well, then I assume(?) Asus were lazy or just didn't think to give us the choice, cos I only have MTP or PTP mode. I miss UMC.
invertedskull said:
Well, then I assume(?) Asus were lazy or just didn't think to give us the choice, cos I only have MTP or PTP mode. I miss UMC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, assuming that you have your device rooted and with busybox, can you post the output of these three commands
Code:
ls -lR /dev/block
Code:
mount
Code:
su
parted /dev/block/mmcblk0
print
scandiun said:
Well, assuming that you have your device rooted and with busybox, can you post the output of these three commands...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, I don't have it rooted. I have been asking around if rooting / unlocking the TF300T would give me the option for UMC, but pretty much everyone told me chances are zip.
invertedskull said:
Sorry, I don't have it rooted. I have been asking around if rooting / unlocking the TF300T would give me the option for UMC, but pretty much everyone told me chances are zip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rooting can't change that because it's hardware implemented. You can't do anything about it. Probably the Eee pad transformer doesn't have a dedicated partition for sdcard.
A quick way to check it is see if the free space for the sdcard and the userdata is exactly the same, and is always like that no matter on which of the two partitions you write.
About the issue anyway, modern phones like Galaxy S3, Galaxy Nexus, Galaxy Note and probably newer like Nexus 2 and Note 2 won't have it anymore, it's just the way to go because takes all the advantage of the free space on the device. It will be the standard from now on.
EDITED:
If you want UMS on devices that don't have it, you can use DriveDroid from market (there's both free and paid). With it, create a blank file that will be used as "partition". Then you can connect your phone to your computer and put there the songs you want. Then do the same in the car. For example, in my Nexus 7 I've created a 2 GB file which serve for that purpose (takes a while when is big).
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=39203658&postcount=21
I have 20.71GB free internal, and 1.89GB free on the mSD card. :/
invertedskull said:
I have 20.71GB free internal, and 1.89GB free on the mSD card. :/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because the mSD is another sdcard, different than the internal, in case it has it.
Would be great if you could get the partition scheme as I requested before, or ask for it, to definitely rule it out.
scandiun said:
Because the mSD is another sdcard, different than the internal, in case it has it.
Would be great if you could get the partition scheme as I requested before, or ask for it, to definitely rule it out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is this what you need?
when i connect my device with computer(MTP conection), i saw 1drive appear, then i go inside, i saw 2drive(iternal&external with how many free space left), go inside again always empty... how to use it?
I get that also. Just go into either one (internal or external) that you want to copy your files to and do your stuff.
invertedskull said:
Is this what you need?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
More or less. The internal sdcard and the external (microsd) are different, one has 27.15 GB and the other 29.80 GB.
Click in the More... and see if you have UMC for the external microsd
scandiun said:
More or less. The internal sdcard and the external (microsd) are different, one has 27.15 GB and the other 29.80 GB.
Click in the More... and see if you have UMC for the external microsd
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, I only have MTP or PTP. This makes me sad.
Of UMC, MPT, and PTP, which is the most benigh?
I don't know if this is the best place to ask my question, but at least you all seem to understand this all pretty well.
I plug my phone into my PC to just use ADB. Under Gingerbread, I would select "Charge only" as my USB connection type.
With ICS, there is no longer the "Charge Only" option for an USB connection to a PC. I have to pick UMC, MTP, or PTP.
Given I really don't want to use any of those, just ADB, which of the three is the most benign one?
WaltA said:
I don't know if this is the best place to ask my question, but at least you all seem to understand this all pretty well.
I plug my phone into my PC to just use ADB. Under Gingerbread, I would select "Charge only" as my USB connection type.
With ICS, there is no longer the "Charge Only" option for an USB connection to a PC. I have to pick UMC, MTP, or PTP.
Given I really don't want to use any of those, just ADB, which of the three is the most benign one?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Either the MTP or PTP are the safer ones. There is no possibility to select "none" like was possible in previous version as you say. The UMC has the disadvantage that if you activate the Mass Storage usually the /sdcard won't be available from ADB commands.
Anyway, the ADB is separate from those options. The ADB option is usually found under Developer options. You can use adb with any of the options you say.
Thanks a lot very very helpfull!
oops, delete post. wrong window lol
scandiun said:
Rooting can't change that because it's hardware implemented. You can't do anything about it.
...
About the issue anyway, modern phones like Galaxy S3, Galaxy Nexus, Galaxy Note and probably newer like Nexus 2 and Note 2 won't have it anymore, it's just the way to go because takes all the advantage of the free space on the device. It will be the standard from now on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought I would let you (and anyone else reading this thread) know that your post here is wrong. It's not "hardware implemented" in the sense that these two protocols are software implementations of data transfer. In fact, in many cases, even where there is NOT a microSD card that is mounted as a separate partition from system/data, the UMS/MSC (USB Mass Storage Transfer/Mass Storage Class) can still be implemented by this procedure:
1. Root (and optionally flash a custom ROM, that can be easily modded)
2. boot into alt OS, such as Recovery or OS from alt. source (USB OTG?)
3. Partition such that you have the required "separate partition"
4. add kernel modules/libraries you want and will need for UMS/MSC
5. Boot up and enjoy UMS/MSC as well as MTP (if you don't mind crappy speed)
Done.
Also, regarding MTP/PTP (Media Transfer Protocol, which is actually different from Picture Transfer Protocol), being a future replacement for all "modern phones", I am not so sure. It is designed for that indeed, but the Android community is different from most others. I will personally be going out of my way in the future, to ensure all phones I buy have removable uSDcard slots, as long as I can still find them, because it makes recovery in a bind, much easier (like, if there's a problem establishing communications with a computer, and numerous other possibilities). There's nothing like popping in a 32 or 64 Gig card of movies, training videos, eBooks, etc., within 10 to 20 seconds, vice the hours it will typically take to transfer even 5 Gigs of videos over the MTP protocol. Again, I don't like programs handling all my media for me. I prefer to see the files where they live (a higher fidelity simulation, is afterall, a hallmark property of how sharper minds represent reality, and abstractions from it are always mere shortcuts we use in a hurry). You got an easier method to rapidly check file hashes on your phone, from your laptop? Think of it this way, saying that MTP will "replace" UMS, is like saying Apple will replace Linux.
Regards,
Paul
:good: