Database Info

Do you think Froyo was intentionally leaked?

It makes a lot of sense. In a way, its sort of a public beta. ATT only has so many testers who can find all the various bugs, so leaking an unreleased build to the public would be the best way to find them.

I can appreciate this theory. And im digging the built in wifi tether feature. That was my number one reason for rooting.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

I've wondered this about many leaks. Don't think tether will be in final, just don't see the death star being that friendly.
From a phone on an app

I'm no longer a customer of DirecTV's, but back in 2008 when I was, they were doing something that I thought was fantastic with some of their customer base on dbstalk.com. They were issuing beta releases of their STB software over their birds at particular times of the day (read midnight), allowing customers to be their testers for them. You could then log defects/issues in the appropriate threads on dbstalk, where they had eyes/ears following along to take action on those issues. The software updates were frequent and allowed the end users to not only see the latest and greatest software, but also to participate in weeding out the problems. These beta releases were accompanied with release notes, so the users knew what to look for and what to test. Participating users had to "sign" a waiver, but the software updates were usually reversible if something catastrophic happened.
It was awesome and I wish other companies could/would follow this model.

Yes, abosolutely! But I don't think the leaks originate from AT&T; I think they originate from Samsung - who knows for sure. I think there are a few folks on XDA (DG, for instance) that benefit from these leaks and the resulting donations. Samsung benefits from a huge community of users testing their crappy software...I digress.

I doubt it was intentional - by samsung corporate - big corporations don't think that way. I think DG knows someone there and got an older developer build (it is about 2 weeks old).
I don't think samsung cares that much - they have not shutdown the samfirmwares site, and there are probably some individual developers that check things out here - but I doubt some VP of development said "lets leak the firmware and see what bugs they find"

alphadog00 said:
I doubt it was intentional - by samsung corporate - big corporations don't think that way. I think DG knows someone there and got an older developer build (it is about 2 weeks old).
I don't think samsung cares that much - they have not shutdown the samfirmwares site, and there are probably some individual developers that check things out here - but I doubt some VP of development said "lets leak the firmware and see what bugs they find"
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What is the samfirmwares site now? I have been unable to find it the last couple of weeks. What's the current address?

BigEHokie said:
I'm no longer a customer of DirecTV's, but back in 2008 when I was, they were doing something that I thought was fantastic with some of their customer base on dbstalk.com. They were issuing beta releases of their STB software over their birds at particular times of the day (read midnight), allowing customers to be their testers for them. You could then log defects/issues in the appropriate threads on dbstalk, where they had eyes/ears following along to take action on those issues. The software updates were frequent and allowed the end users to not only see the latest and greatest software, but also to participate in weeding out the problems. These beta releases were accompanied with release notes, so the users knew what to look for and what to test. Participating users had to "sign" a waiver, but the software updates were usually reversible if something catastrophic happened.
It was awesome and I wish other companies could/would follow this model.
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Click to collapse
I still try to participate in the "Cutting Edge" Betas.

From a technical perspective, it would make good sense. Release it to the enthusiast community and lurk in their forums looking for feedback. Even better would be to participate in the forums and actively solicit feedback and provide support. From a legal perspective, I would guess it poses some risks. Without some sort of EULA in place, Samsung and AT&T have no way to limit their liability. Maybe your contract with AT&T covers that but I am not sure.
So, if I had to guess, there are a handful of smart devs within the Samsung who see the value in getting feedback from a larger audience but it is completely unofficial and unsanctioned by the higher-ups at both AT&T and Samsung. So, intentional, yes. Sanctioned, no.

{Make Sticky} We need Source

Dear Forums,
As we all know, the key to having a truly customizable device is having the source for their builds, and as we also all know, Viewsonic has not released the source code for their Gtablet.
If we all find the correct email to contact, much like all other companies they will be pressured into releasing the source to the community.
Let's get this done.
LETTER
Dear Viewsonic,
We are aware your company has directed many customers calling for technical support to the gTablet sub-forum of xda-developers
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=841
Please consider listening to what the community as asking for.
By using the Linux Kernel in your device you are required by the Free Software Foundation's General Public License (GPLv2) to release the source code for the kernel. If there is any proprietary software involved in said code, then you have the right to protect your investment, and not include that with the source release.
We are entitled to the source to change our tablets in the way we see fit with the full understanding that when we modify our tablets software we remove ourselves from any sort of warranty you may offer.
Furthermore, we would like an open dialog between with your developers concerning the software which is shipped with the gTablet. It well known among the community that the return rate for the gTablet is unnaturally high. The version of Android developed by Tap n Tap does not provide a positive user experience for the average user. By this time you should be aware of such feedback coming from the main distributors of the gTablet, Sears and Staples. This situation will only continue to get worse as detailed professional reviews of this product begin to circulate around the Internet. One such review I am referring to will be posted to Anandtech.com in the next few days.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4054/first-look-viewsonic-gtablet-and-tegra-2-performance-preview
Barnes and Noble has released a Software Development Kit as well as source code to enable the community to make the Nook Color the best product it can be.
http://www.barnesandnobleinc.com/press_releases/2010_oct_26_nook_developer.html
Please follow their example. By working together we can make the gTablet a real competitor in the burgeoning tablet marketplace.
Sincerely,
The gTablet Community from xda-developers.com

I'll second that. Not sure what we can do, but they should be reminded.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App

Viewsonic's main website has a support tab that you can send inquiries. Do you think it would get to the right place if we used that?

The email avenue did not work for me
xmr405o said:
Viewsonic's main website has a support tab that you can send inquiries. Do you think it would get to the right place if we used that?
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I tried using the email tech support method for the web site; got this response back:
Dear Mr. Walker,
Thank you for contacting ViewSonic Technical Support.
I apologize but as much as I wanted to assist you with it, the product that you are inquiring about is handled by a different technical department.
You may contact them by calling 1-866-501-6405 between 8am-5pm PST, Monday through Friday.
If you have other technical concerns, feel free to contact us again. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to assist you.
Sincerely,
Josef
ViewSonic Technical Support
(800) 688-6688 (USA)
(866) 463-4775(Canada)

[email protected] said:
I tried using the email tech support method for the web site; got this response back:
Dear Mr. Walker,
Thank you for contacting ViewSonic Technical Support.
I apologize but as much as I wanted to assist you with it, the product that you are inquiring about is handled by a different technical department.
You may contact them by calling 1-866-501-6405 between 8am-5pm PST, Monday through Friday.
If you have other technical concerns, feel free to contact us again. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to assist you.
Sincerely,
Josef
ViewSonic Technical Support
(800) 688-6688 (USA)
(866) 463-4775(Canada)
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Go for it. it has to drop sooner or later. the more pressure from the community, the better. I'll drop them a line as well.

I get the feeling that instead of taking the time to lock the device down like is done with phones and other android devices, they decided they will just not release the code and hope to stall out mods that way.

TheMongol said:
I get the feeling that instead of taking the time to lock the device down like is done with phones and other android devices, they decided they will just not release the code and hope to stall out mods that way.
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That'd work, except for the fact that it's against the GPL, and that'd be breaking the law. They have to make it available, it's just a matter of pressuring them into doing so sooner than later.

just sent off my second email to viewsonic regarding the gtablet (along with a note telling them to fwd the email accordingly). i will let you guys know if i get a response.

Just called in. They are taking people's contact info that say they are android developers (they started doing that today) and they said they are not doing it to track us or anything like that, but to contact us...like say...when the source is released.
Everybody, call. Emailing isn't going to get you anywhere.
I informed them that they will legally have to release source under GPL, he said he will be passing that up to the developers. It sounds like we may be getting somewhere, but we need to call...the more the merrier. It sounds like they have a small call center so its not how many times you call, but how many different people call at this point.

myndwire said:
That'd work, except for the fact that it's against the GPL, and that'd be breaking the law. They have to make it available, it's just a matter of pressuring them into doing so sooner than later.
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Oh yes indeed. But that doesn't mean people won't try to get away with things from time to time. Perhaps they are not even aware. I know I am going to call and ask soon even though I just started developing on android.

I called them today, as well - good bunch of people over there and a pleasure to talk with them.
I'm serious - in a world of reps in third world countries speaking broken english and working off a script, the VS reps are a breath of fresh air and Viewsonic should be commended for that alone. I put in my usual request to please release the source and I was told that they will pass it onto the development team.
I don't expect anything to come from it, but they do know who I am and who we are, so I'm hoping that VS management throws us a bone once they realize what a mistake it was adding that TnT layer.

roebeet said:
I called them today, as well - good bunch of people over there and a pleasure to talk with them.
I'm serious - in a world of reps in third world countries speaking broken english and working off a script, the VS reps are a breath of fresh air and Viewsonic should be commented for that alone. I put in my usual request to please release the source and I was told that they will pass it onto the development team.
I don't expect anything to come from it, but they do know who I am and who we are, so I'm hoping that VS management throws us a bone once they realize what a mistake it was adding that TnT layer.
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I agree. The guy I talked to was pretty cool. He also said that the developers are being very persistent about keeping TnT in place. Very nice to talk to someone that can actually speak English

scsione889 said:
I agree. The guy I talked to was pretty cool, and even he came out and said xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. He also said that the developers are being very persistent about keeping TnT in place. Very nice to talk to someone that can actually speak English
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Watch out, they read these forums, don't want to get the poor guy fired!

jacindc said:
Watch out, they read these forums, don't want to get the poor guy fired!
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x2 on that! Rule of thumb - if you write something here about a conversation with CS, assume that their management might read it and how that would look.

Just spoke with Mike @ Viewsonic gtablet support. First, they are very nice! Second, Mike said that they are working on a release, but no date yet. Finally, Mike said that they would be posting it to viewsonic.com/gtablet website (and to also check xda-developers.com for other updates).
They also took my e-mail address - hopefully to send out a blast when they are finally able to post it.
BTW, Mike - thanks!
I also have to echo others who have posted here - Thank you, Viewsonic, for having people who can speak English!!

I figured I would do my part as well. I called & spoke to a tech who said they were not releasing it & have no plans to do so. I said its linux based & the GPL says they have to release the source by law. He said they dont support changing the operating system. I said Android is linux based & falls under the GPL. He then transfered me to a senior tech who said:
Tap n tap is proprietary & therefore it doesn’t fall in the GPL. He said the TNT is also horrendous & they want to protect the tap n tap ‘investment’ which is why the source wont be released. They did not ask for my information aside from my first name for the conversation we had. He basically said they were not going to release the source regardless of how many people called. The only way to get it is to sue the company & force them to do so. Obviously, I am not looking to spend more money just to get the source. He knows that, the company knows that & until someone bucks up & hires an attorney, viewsonic doesn’t care.
He did say that they did get a number of calls, he feels for me, he said others have rooted it but tough titties (my summary).

RichTJ99 said:
He basically said they were not going to release the source regardless of how many people called. The only way to get it is to sue the company & force them to do so.
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Boy, did my blood pressure just skyrocket.

RichTJ99 said:
I figured I would do my part as well. I called & spoke to a tech who said they were not releasing it & have no plans to do so. I said its linux based & the GPL says they have to release the source by law. He said they dont support changing the operating system. I said Android is linux based & falls under the GPL. He then transfered me to a senior tech who said:
Tap n tap is proprietary & therefore it doesn’t fall in the GPL. He said the TNT is also horrendous & they want to protect the tap n tap ‘investment’ which is why the source wont be released. They did not ask for my information aside from my first name for the conversation we had. He basically said they were not going to release the source regardless of how many people called. The only way to get it is to sue the company & force them to do so. Obviously, I am not looking to spend more money just to get the source. He knows that, the company knows that & until someone bucks up & hires an attorney, viewsonic doesn’t care.
He did say that they did get a number of calls, he feels for me, he said others have rooted it but tough titties (my summary).
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Thanks for the info.
What I don't understand is why is it that HTC is bound to GPL in that it must release source for its devices even though the majority of HTC devices has the proprietary software, Sense?
I don't think having proprietary software on a device exempts a company from conforming to GPL.

i think they must be new to linux or HTC is very used to dealing with Linux.
The senior tech was sympathetic but was firm in repeating the company plans. Heck their twitter page sais the same exact thing.
It makes me wonder if I should return it.

RichTJ99 said:
i think they must be new to linux or HTC is very used to dealing with Linux.
The senior tech was sympathetic but was firm in repeating the company plans. Heck their twitter page sais the same exact thing.
It makes me wonder if I should return it.
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I agree- without source, the gtab won't be able to experience its full potential especially if Viewsonic thinks anyone likes tapntap. Makes me wonder if I should return mine even though (outside of a few annoyances) I really like the device.
Viewsonic has to release source. Their device is Linux based with a proprietary software user interface just like HTC devices. This is ridiculous.

Some Entertaining reading. GO XDA DEVs.

please try not to shoot the messenger here. Thought this may be of interest to some here.
Class Action
Also a Plausible explanation for the Delay...

Sighcosis said:
please try not to shoot the messenger here. Thought this may be of interest to some here.
Class Action
Also a Plausible explanation for the Delay...
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The second article, if true, is what pisses me off.. Good job Samsung, you may be deceptively inflating the value of your Vibrant 4G, but, at the cost of the PR of thousands of customers who've already put value into your company.. brilliant!
Let's watch all those Fascinate owners hop over to the iPhone 4 on Febuary 10th because we STILL won't have OTA Froyo by then!!..

The lawsuit will fail. We are not guaranteed any updates, read the contract you signed when you got your phone.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App

not sure about if there is a case there or not.
But its is not all about updates.
I understand that to be a small part of it.
Apparently more to do with the GPS not working and basically not following in the Android Open Source Project scheme. I was reading up on that and from what I can understand of it their source should be available to Devs *hence the Open Source*.
Personally it costs me nothing and if it helps in getting the message out that as customers we are unhappy.. I am all in..
Twitter something to @SamsungMobileUS with #NeverAgain tag. That is another "movement" started by DEVs here at XDA.
this was mine
@SamsungMobileUS I have been a user of your fine video and audio devices for years. #NeverAgain will I purchase a Samsung device.
I am but one voice and can not be heard in the masses. But if I join the masses we can become a Shout or a Deafening Roar

Well let me go read the AOSP license..
and that aside.. who knows what license agreement Google and Samsung made? It is not necessarily the one on the code.
Here's the corporate license: http://source.android.com/source/cla-corporate.html
Well.. as far as I can tell (I'm no lawyer..) Samsung is not doing anything illegal:
http://source.android.com/source/licenses.html
The are not required to redistribute their source at all for user space applications.. they are only required to retain the license and make sure they note where they have made changes. Code, however, may be distributed in source OR object format.
As far as the kernel (which is what we really need) they are only required to redistribute the source of any linux kernel they have in turn modified and then DISTRIBUTED. Key word distributed, and let me assure you, this has been done. The source for the current kernel on our device can be obtained from Samsung's open source website (albeit at obnoxiously throttled DL speeds.. ~70kb/s). I have it . Once they push 2.2 they will [have to] make the source available. I'm sure they will.

skitzo_inc said:
The lawsuit will fail. We are not guaranteed any updates, read the contract you signed when you got your phone.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
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I also don't the lawsuit will succeed, but from what I gather its not about the update itself, its about them all saying we would get it and never getting it. The whole "false advertising" thing. Think about what kind of legal staff a multinational conglomerate like Samsung could put together. I love the fact that he is speaking out and getting a decent amount of attention, but in the long run will it do anything? Unfortunately I doubt it. I do not hate Samsung or US Cellular for that matter, in fact I love my Mez way better than my crapberry curve

droidzach said:
I also don't the lawsuit will succeed, but from what I gather its not about the update itself, its about them all saying we would get it and never getting it. The whole "false advertising" thing. Think about what kind of legal staff a multinational conglomerate like Samsung could put together. I love the fact that he is speaking out and getting a decent amount of attention, but in the long run will it do anything? Unfortunately I doubt it. I do not hate Samsung or US Cellular for that matter, in fact I love my Mez way better than my crapberry curve
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In the business word the only promise is a contract. And even those can be broken..

I know this, if I worked at Verizon I would hold off the 2.2 update until after the Iphone4 is launched to beef up the sales of the new product. Then release 2.2 after sales have leveled out.

XDA/Samsung

Hello Guys,
My name is John, I recently became the social media analyst at Samsung mobile. I wanted to start opening the lines of communication between XDA and Samsung. First I wanted to say I have noticed your work on our devices on the XDA forums. I think you guys do an outstanding job, I myself am a developer for mobile devices. So let’s get down to business, we’re going to be in Austin from March 10-15 for the SXSW(south by southwest http://sxsw.com/convention). I was wondering if any of you guys are going so that we could meet up and share a couple of ideas I have. I am looking forward to meeting some of you GREAT developers!
Thanks in advance,
John
Social Media Analyst
Samsung Mobile USA
Twitter: @SamsungJohn

Is this for real? Please provide some proof you work for samsung.

Sooooo...what's the hold up with Froyo, John?

wonner said:
Sooooo...what's the hold up with Froyo, John?
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+1
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

I honestly hope you are authentic. It is about time that the people who make the phones embrace the superior developmental process.

Pikabob said:
I honestly hope you are authentic. It is about time that the people who make the phones embrace the superior developmental process.
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Or at least attempt to embrace some kind of something. That'd be a start for Samsung.

Sounds like BS advertising to get people in seats at this event.

Interesting...go through his previous posts once, not exactly his first time posting on the forums...

So let’s get down to business, we’re going to be in Austin from March 10-15 for the SXSW(south by southwest http://sxsw.com/convention).
The link doesn't work....

Troll.....

Yeah, sounds troll to me, but it will be nice for them to show here...and learn a bit of how things are done
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

Real
Yes I am the real deal, I am a developer/social media analyst. I don't mind taking a picture of my badge or something to prove my credibility.

SamsungJohn said:
Yes I am the real deal, I am a developer/social media analyst. I don't mind taking a picture of my badge or something to prove my credibility.
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I think he's legit, folks.
If you are indeed an analyst for Samsung, welcome to XDA. I'm sure you've already noticed by now that there is a lot of cynicism both for Samsung and your claim of being an employee. Simple reason for this is that most everyone here feels that Samsung has ignored their pleas for help, didn’t deliver promised upgrades, and left millions of Galaxy S owners with buggy software/hardware, etc.
If your goal is to reach out to Samsung users at the grassroots level, you're in the right place. However, you also have a tough job ahead of you. The disenfranchisement runs deep and it will take a lot of effort to fix.
Here are some suggestions for you to escalate internally within Samsung:
1. Support the development efforts of the XDA developers. There are many talented people working quite hard to customize, fix and generally improve Samsung firmware. Samsung should make some effort to provide these developers with source code, tools, and help.
2. Take an honest and upfront approach to product defects that find their way onto store shelves (e.g. GPS, battery, etc). I guarantee the cost of addressing the problem will be fully offset by the shift in customer loyalty. An unreliable product is perceived many times worse if the OEM denies or ignores the issues.
3. Set a release schedule with carrier partners and stick to it. Apple has set the benchmark for frequent over the wire software updates. Android applications are updated with fixes and improvements on a regular basis. In stark contrast, our firmware lags far behind Google’s releases and FOTA is failing more than it’s working. This has to change. Samsung needs to push out regular firmware updates that are applied seamlessly without loss of data. Forget FOTA and do it like Apple does OTW (over the wire).
4. Allow users the option of switching to AOSP. Some people like TouchWiz and some don’t. Give them the choice.
BTW, in addition to being an informed consumer, I work in the mobile industry. I know a fair amount about how it should work. The Samsung Galaxy product suite is performing very well but the real question is how long will it last. Loyalty takes effort to maintain and is easy to lose.
P.S. I may very well be at SXSW but I won’t know for sure until a week or so beforehand.

I understand I have a lot of work ahead of me. As I said before, Im here to establish a partnership with XDA developers. Inbox me to let me know if your going to be there so i can arrange somewhere to meet.

If he was legit, one of the Admins would be announcing that SamsungJohn is a rep from Samsung; he wouldn't be doing it himself as a post in the forum.

paulbh said:
If he was legit, one of the Admins would be announcing that SamsungJohn is a rep from Samsung; he wouldn't be doing it himself as a post in the forum.
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^^^^^^ that's a good point!

SamsungJohn said:
I understand I have a lot of work ahead of me. As I said before, Im here to establish a partnership with XDA developers. Inbox me to let me know if your going to be there so i can arrange somewhere to meet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are in fact telling the truth, I warmly welcome you to the true birthplace of the galaxy s.

paulbh said:
If he was legit, one of the Admins would be announcing that SamsungJohn is a rep from Samsung; he wouldn't be doing it himself as a post in the forum.
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Why? There's quite a bit of speculation in your claim--why would he have to go through admins to post here?
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Kubernetes said:
Why? There's quite a bit of speculation in your claim--why would he have to go through admins to post here?
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
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You would think that someone who is in the position he claims to be in, would come in a little more professional than just a random post.
He said he has been lurking the forums and likes what he sees. So he has also seen all the dissapointment that is running through these forums as well.
If you were in his position would you not want to come in here, with support and proof of who you are? (there is multiple threads of the same post in other categories, all have been asking for proof for hours)
I'm not saying hes not who he says he is, just think he could have introduced himself a little better.

Guys, do a little research. Pretty easy to figure out that he is either very thorough or he's actually legit.
Maybe we should tell him that it is a welcome first step to see him here.
He is an analyst so he's going to have to escalate pretty far up the food chain to be effective. Hope you're a good communicator John.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

Just Realizing... OEMs are Taking Advantage of us!

Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?

Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.

They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium

If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.

thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
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If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.

It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".

You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app

But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...

Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.

Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium

Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!

How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app

Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser

MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
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The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.

For the record there are over four million members on XDA...

thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
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Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.

thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
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The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.

MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
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Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
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I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.

It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."

thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
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What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.