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Hey Guys,
yesterday I wanted to revert my ROM from CM10 to TrickDroid 7.1. In TWRP 2.2.1 I wiped caches and did a factory reset and then flashed TD 7.1 following torxx's instructions (wipe, install ROM, flash boot.img with his boot flash script, let the ROM boot). After the reboot the phone hang. The startup sound came through but then no further action for about 7 Minutes.
Was that too little time waiting? Or is there any other issue interfering the boot process after reverting from Android 4.1.1 to 4.0.4 Sense?
If anyone can help is much appreciated. Even if I look stupid afterwords
Burkhard
herzbert said:
Hey Guys,
yesterday I wanted to revert my ROM from CM10 to TrickDroid 7.1. In TWRP 2.2.1 I wiped caches and did a factory reset and then flashed TD 7.1 following torxx's instructions (wipe, install ROM, flash boot.img with his boot flash script, let the ROM boot). After the reboot the phone hang. The startup sound came through but then no further action for about 7 Minutes.
Was that too little time waiting? Or is there any other issue interfering the boot process after reverting from Android 4.1.1 to 4.0.4 Sense?
If anyone can help is much appreciated. Even if I look stupid afterwords
Burkhard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Perhaps your hboot does not allow flashing or boot.img? Have you tried the fastboot method of flashing boot.img? How about reverting to a nandroid of a sense based ROM, then flashing TD?
el_smurfo said:
Perhaps your hboot does not allow flashing or boot.img? Have you tried the fastboot method of flashing boot.img? How about reverting to a nandroid of a sense based ROM, then flashing TD?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Prior to CM10 I was on latest stock ROM. Before that I had custom ROMs. HBoot on my phone after the OTA update is 1.14. Flashing the boot image of CM10 was no problem.
In order to use the phone I reinstalled CM10 and it works.
The boot images were flashed within fastboot. I do not know any other way to flash a boot image.
I dont have a nandroid backup.
Checked MD5?
torxx said:
Checked MD5?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They correspond.
If nothing else helps I will try to install the latest RUU and then flash a ROM. But I wanna circumvent the relock and unlock procedure.
Btw: Did anybody notice that the unlock code changes after an update of HBoot? Nobody mentioned that when the new base was released.
Same here... But fine now
herzbert said:
They correspond.
If nothing else helps I will try to install the latest RUU and then flash a ROM. But I wanna circumvent the relock and unlock procedure.
Btw: Did anybody notice that the unlock code changes after an update of HBoot? Nobody mentioned that when the new base was released.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey there,
I was having the same problems as you messioned. I flashed the boot.img through fastboot myself and some how it then worked Did not have an problems with flashing the boot.img before. But maybe its worth a try.
Of course you need to use fastboot!!
Did not try yet to flash the RUU. There was an update of CM10 yesterday. The heavy battery drain is gone with this update and there is no urgent need to go back to TrickDroid right now.
herzbert said:
Prior to CM10 I was on latest stock ROM. Before that I had custom ROMs. HBoot on my phone after the OTA update is 1.14. Flashing the boot image of CM10 was no problem.
In order to use the phone I reinstalled CM10 and it works.
The boot images were flashed within fastboot. I do not know any other way to flash a boot image.
I dont have a nandroid backup.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HBoot 1.14 is the problem. Anything above 1.09 needs special steps to flash unlike simply flashing with twrp as with 1.09 and below.
Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
LikeaG2root said:
HBoot 1.14 is the problem. Anything above 1.09 needs special steps to flash unlike simply flashing with twrp as with 1.09 and below.
Alright, so, what are these special steps? Can you tell? If its not flashing the within recovery and push the boot.img via fastboot to the phone I would be very interested. My previous HBoot version was 1.13. Flashing ROMs was never a big deal. Also not going to CM9 and back to sense based ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am on hboot 1.14 and it worked via fastboot. Like you mentioned yourself you reinstalled CM10 and it booted, therefore your previous flash of the boot.img didn't work. So just flash the boot.img via bootloader and fastboot and you should be good...
HighRoIIer said:
I am on hboot 1.14 and it worked via fastboot. Like you mentioned yourself you reinstalled CM10 and it booted, therefore your previous flash of the boot.img didn't work. So just flash the boot.img via bootloader and fastboot and you should be good...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did also flash the boot.img via fastboot. Why do you say that anyway? Is there another method to flash a boot.img?
you didn't mention wiping System as part of the full wipe--needs done
Partially solved
rugmankc said:
you didn't mention wiping System as part of the full wipe--needs done
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, I did not mention it because system is wiped by TWRP during flashing the ROM. So there was no need to wipe it seperately. But maybe my mistake was not to wipe data and the new "asec" folder messed things up.
I'll never know because yesterday I did a complete wipe including the SDCard. Afterwards I was able to install TrickDroid flawlessly.
Thank you all for your efforts.
So I am stuck on a boot screen I followed the istruction of deleting system,dalvik,cache, factory reset. I installed the CM10 rom and Gapps yet it hangs for a really long time about 5-6 mins on the boot screen. Did I do something wrong>? I can mount the storage through TWRP and throw a different rom on.
bratten2121 said:
So I am stuck on a boot screen I followed the istruction of deleting system,dalvik,cache, factory reset. I installed the CM10 rom and Gapps yet it hangs for a really long time about 5-6 mins on the boot screen. Did I do something wrong>? I can mount the storage through TWRP and throw a different rom on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what h-boot are you ? you may need to fastboot the boot.img
Hboot-1.14.0002
do some searching i think you need to flash the boot.img
Do I have to flash one of these? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1694012 or will these not work because I have hboot 1.14? I do want to be able to flash CM10.
bratten2121 said:
Do I have to flash one of these? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1694012 or will these not work because I have hboot 1.14? I do want to be able to flash CM10.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you will be able to put CM10 on your device, you will just need to flash the kernel seperately. before you flash the ROM in your recovery, you will need to boot the phone to fastboot mode and run "fastboot flash boot boot.img" using the boot.img file extracted from the ROM you are flashing.
the thread you are linking to there are the radio files. You can flash those, but they aren't necessary for the ROM to work. They may improve your reception.
Thanks a lot! It booted up but cant get past setup services keeps force closing? SHould I first flash the kernel then install the rom?
bratten2121 said:
Thanks a lot! It booted up but cant get past setup services keeps force closing? SHould I first flash the kernel then install the rom?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it should work either way, maybe clear cache and dalvik again and see how you go?
I've searched up and down for this and have yet to find a solid answer, so here I am. I have an AT&T One X (Evita), unlocked, rooted and flashed. Currently running TWRP & GooManager for recovery and ROMs and I'm on Viper 3.2.6.
Initially, my choice was to flash CM10, this failed and went into boot loop. So I recovered and tried Viper. No problems....everything installed just fine. However, I'd like a more lightweight OS - Viper is a little too heavy for my tastes. I saw in GooManager yesterday a new ROM, Liquidsmooth (4.2.2) - decided to flash it and the same thing happened as with CM10 - everything went fine through install and then black.....second install attempt resulted in another bootloop.
I recovered back to Viper without issue, but I can't help but wonder why both CM10 and Liquidsmooth fail to install, but suspect I'm missing a certain boot img? Am I correct here?
(I'd post this to the specific ROM forum but don't have enough posts to submit to developer forums - apologies)
originalseven said:
I've searched up and down for this and have yet to find a solid answer, so here I am. I have an AT&T One X (Evita), unlocked, rooted and flashed. Currently running TWRP & GooManager for recovery and ROMs and I'm on Viper 3.2.6.
Initially, my choice was to flash CM10, this failed and went into boot loop. So I recovered and tried Viper. No problems....everything installed just fine. However, I'd like a more lightweight OS - Viper is a little too heavy for my tastes. I saw in GooManager yesterday a new ROM, Liquidsmooth (4.2.2) - decided to flash it and the same thing happened as with CM10 - everything went fine through install and then black.....second install attempt resulted in another bootloop.
I recovered back to Viper without issue, but I can't help but wonder why both CM10 and Liquidsmooth fail to install, but suspect I'm missing a certain boot img? Am I correct here?
(I'd post this to the specific ROM forum but don't have enough posts to submit to developer forums - apologies)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes there is a sense kernel and one for non-sense roms (aosp)
Usually the dev will have a kernel link posted on their page
If you are hboot 1.14 or higher, and S-on, to be perfectly safe you should extract the boot.img for the ROM zip you are trying to flash, and flash it manually.
Also, be careful installing ROMs with GooManager (or similar apps, like ROM Manager). Not sure if it properly differentiates between the dual and quad core versions of the One X/XL.
redpoint73 said:
If you are hboot 1.14 or higher, and S-on, to be perfectly safe you should extract the boot.img for the ROM zip you are trying to flash, and flash it manually.
Also, be careful installing ROMs with GooManager (or similar apps, like ROM Manager). Not sure if it properly differentiates between the dual and quad core versions of the One X/XL.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it better to just boot into recovery (TWRP) and go that route, instead of having Goo flash it?
I checked the page where the ROM exists but I'm not seeing a link to any specific kernel. However, I downloaded to ROM again to my desktop just now, unarchived it and now see a 'boot.img" file. So this file.....this gets placed on my sd card, I boot into TWRP and flash it?
If you can point me to a how-to on this, I'd appreciate it - I hate filling boards with asinine questions.
originalseven said:
I've searched up and down for this and have yet to find a solid answer, so here I am. I have an AT&T One X (Evita), unlocked, rooted and flashed. Currently running TWRP & GooManager for recovery and ROMs and I'm on Viper 3.2.6.
Initially, my choice was to flash CM10, this failed and went into boot loop. So I recovered and tried Viper. No problems....everything installed just fine. However, I'd like a more lightweight OS - Viper is a little too heavy for my tastes. I saw in GooManager yesterday a new ROM, Liquidsmooth (4.2.2) - decided to flash it and the same thing happened as with CM10 - everything went fine through install and then black.....second install attempt resulted in another bootloop.
I recovered back to Viper without issue, but I can't help but wonder why both CM10 and Liquidsmooth fail to install, but suspect I'm missing a certain boot img? Am I correct here?
(I'd post this to the specific ROM forum but don't have enough posts to submit to developer forums - apologies)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
viper doesn't require you to flash the boot image, it does it for your.
For cm10 or liquidsmooth you need to, an easy way is using Flash GUI. its available on the market and xda. you don't need to hook up to a computer to flash boot image, makes things much easier and faster.
originalseven said:
Is it better to just boot into recovery (TWRP) and go that route, instead of having Goo flash it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For flashing the actual ROM, I don't think it matters. I think Goo Manager is still using TWRP, just automating the process.
originalseven said:
I checked the page where the ROM exists but I'm not seeing a link to any specific kernel. However, I downloaded to ROM again to my desktop just now, unarchived it and now see a 'boot.img" file.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The boot.img has the kernel in it. They are usually not posted separately in ROM threads. ROMs always contain a kernel, which normally just flashes with the rest of the ROM zip. But hboot 1.14 and above (if you are S-on) prevents the kernel from being flashed in recovery (TWRP). So you need to extract it from the ROM zip manually.
originalseven said:
So this file.....this gets placed on my sd card, I boot into TWRP and flash it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, you can't flash boot.img from TWRP, which is the whole point. Couple methods:
1) Leave the boot.img on your PC, and flash using fastboot. See here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1952076
2) Alternately, you can use the app "Flash Image GUI" on the Play Market. With this app, you place boot.img in the top directory of your SD card, then use the app to flash it.
Or you can S-off, and not have to mess with flashing boot.img seperately every time you flash a ROM.
redpoint73 said:
For flashing the actual ROM, I don't think it matters. I think Goo Manager is still using TWRP, just automating the process.
The boot.img has the kernel in it. They are usually not posted separately in ROM threads. ROMs always contain a kernel, which normally just flashes with the rest of the ROM zip. But hboot 1.14 and above (if you are S-on) prevents the kernel from being flashed in recovery (TWRP). So you need to extract it from the ROM zip manually.
Again, you can't flash boot.img from TWRP, which is the whole point. Couple methods:
1) Leave the boot.img on your PC, and flash using fastboot. See here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1952076
2) Alternately, you can use the app "Flash Image GUI" on the Play Market. With this app, you place boot.img in the top directory of your SD card, then use the app to flash it.
Or you can S-off, and not have to mess with flashing boot.img seperately every time you flash a ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Awesome - thank you so much. Cleared that up completely.
redpoint73 said:
For flashing the actual ROM, I don't think it matters. I think Goo Manager is still using TWRP, just automating the process.
The boot.img has the kernel in it. They are usually not posted separately in ROM threads. ROMs always contain a kernel, which normally just flashes with the rest of the ROM zip. But hboot 1.14 and above (if you are S-on) prevents the kernel from being flashed in recovery (TWRP). So you need to extract it from the ROM zip manually.
Again, you can't flash boot.img from TWRP, which is the whole point. Couple methods:
1) Leave the boot.img on your PC, and flash using fastboot. See here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1952076
2) Alternately, you can use the app "Flash Image GUI" on the Play Market. With this app, you place boot.img in the top directory of your SD card, then use the app to flash it.
Or you can S-off, and not have to mess with flashing boot.img seperately every time you flash a ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, so I looked at this Flash Image GUI on G-Play and the OneX isn't listed as a supported device - is it simply not listed, but is actually supported? For instance, I see this in the reviews...
"I own the AT&T model of the HTC One X (the Evita with a Snapdragon 4 processor) and unfortunately I got it on the 2.20 version. This means that I need to run the "fastboot flash boot boot.img" from my computer if I want to flash a Rom or kernel. It was a pain, I just wanted to be able to download a new Rom whenever and where ever I wanted (I have a very large data cap) and flash it on the go. I can actually do that now it's worked with both AOSP and Sense based Roms, so I'm happy. Great job to the dev "
Failing that, I'll run it from terminal (im on a mac) and assume those same commands apply (but with -mac after bootloader).
originalseven said:
Ok, so I looked at this Flash Image GUI on G-Play and the OneX isn't listed as a supported device - is it simply not listed, but is actually supported? For instance, I see this in the reviews...
"I own the AT&T model of the HTC One X (the Evita with a Snapdragon 4 processor) and unfortunately I got it on the 2.20 version. This means that I need to run the "fastboot flash boot boot.img" from my computer if I want to flash a Rom or kernel. It was a pain, I just wanted to be able to download a new Rom whenever and where ever I wanted (I have a very large data cap) and flash it on the go. I can actually do that now it's worked with both AOSP and Sense based Roms, so I'm happy. Great job to the dev "
Failing that, I'll run it from terminal (im on a mac) and assume those same commands apply (but with -mac after bootloader).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
flashimagegui is perfectly supported. got support awhile back. [APP] Flash Image GUI - Flash Kernels and Recoveries from normal Android mode!
Hi,
I have managed to put on a kernel that's not working. Is there a way to revert back to the original kernel? I do have a nandroid backup, but re-installing that didn't put on the old kernel.
I am using Liquidsmooth ROM. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
if you can boot into the rom use flashimagegui, if not do the normal fastboot the boot.img then do it again with flashimagegui to get the modules.
what kernel did you try to flash? the only kernel that will work with new liquidsmooth is cm10.1_vz-oc-linaro.3.zip. it contains modules, if you aren't s-off then you need to flash boot.img in fastboot then flash again in recovery for the modules.
DvineLord said:
if you can boot into the rom use flashimagegui, if not do the normal fastboot the boot.img then do it again with flashimagegui to get the modules.
what kernel did you try to flash? the only kernel that will work with new liquidsmooth is cm10.1_vz-oc-linaro.3.zip. it contains modules, if you aren't s-off then you need to flash boot.img in fastboot then flash again in recovery for the modules.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did exactly that, presuming that it was working... But I have been facing issues. The phone restarts every once in a while and I have managed to get to this condition after multiple wipes and restoring a backup. Anyways I don't know what the issue is I was just wondering how to revert back to the original kernel.
im running Liquid-JB-v2.1-RC2-evita.zip and cm10.1_vz-oc-linaro.3.zip. there seem to be some general issues with the rom that present as basically glitching and gets worse overtime atleast for me. im pretty sure it isnt related to the kernel. but to revert kernel just load the liquidsmooth zip into flashimagegui and itll pull the needed files, let it wipe cache and dalvik then reboot.
DvineLord said:
im running Liquid-JB-v2.1-RC2-evita.zip and cm10.1_vz-oc-linaro.3.zip. there seem to be some general issues with the rom that present as basically glitching and gets worse overtime atleast for me. im pretty sure it isnt related to the kernel. but to revert kernel just load the liquidsmooth zip into flashimagegui and itll pull the needed files, let it wipe cache and dalvik then reboot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do not have s-off does the flashimagegui works even without it?
strommer666 said:
I do not have s-off does the flashimagegui works even without it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, Flash Image GUI
you should also s-off your phone it will make life ALOT easier and the process is simple take like 2 minutes.
DvineLord said:
yes, Flash Image GUI
you should also s-off your phone it will make life ALOT easier and the process is simple take like 2 minutes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks I'll make sure I do that..
also new stable build of liquidsmooth just got released. you should flash it. imma flash it with a clean full wipe. but you should s-off first so you dont have to flash boot.img separately every rom.
DvineLord said:
also new stable build of liquidsmooth just got released. you should flash it. imma flash it with a clean full wipe. but you should s-off first so you dont have to flash boot.img separately every rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ya, I saw the new version wanted to try that which is why I wanted to got to the old kernel version. I had tried installing it with the linaro kernel but it gets stuck on the boot screen.
Update: - I installed the flash gui image, then extracted and installed the kernel , factory reset the phone, then installed the latest liquid smooth build. But it is still not going ahead of the boot animation.
Update 3 :- Got the old kernel back. Did a restore. Working fine now . But still for some reason I cannot install the new ROM yet.
strommer666 said:
Ya, I saw the new version wanted to try that which is why I wanted to got to the old kernel version. I had tried installing it with the linaro kernel but it gets stuck on the boot screen.
Update: - I installed the flash gui image, then extracted and installed the kernel , factory reset the phone, then installed the latest liquid smooth build. But it is still not going ahead of the boot animation.
Update 3 :- Got the old kernel back. Did a restore. Working fine now . But still for some reason I cannot install the new ROM yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you need everything. you don't need to extract the kernel. just load the whole zip file.
DvineLord said:
you need everything. you don't need to extract the kernel. just load the whole zip file.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did load the full file and the flash gui image extracted the kernel. The thing is I have the kernel now, but still I can't seem to be able to install the new version of the LiquidSmooth build. I am doing a nandroid backup of this thing and try installing it again.
well new liquidsmooth is nice, im using cwm now as recovery since ive had tons of issues with twrp since version 2.2.2.0
hi,
so as i can not post in the android development subforum i'll have to try it here..
I have: HOS with TWRP 2.4.4.0 (goo manager) with HBOOT 2.15 (S-ON) running PAC-man ROM 22.1 (the newest update)
also i have bubba v4 installed and everything was working really perfectly. (s2w and some kernel tuner settings)
yesterday i played a bit with UI settings, nothing that i thought would stop my device from booting..
today i woke up, the battery was empty so i plugged in, turned on and left, after a while i came back and it was still at the boot
animation (PAC is loading...).
now i have tried to reflash bubba, PAC (cache+dalvik wipe) and the boot.img via fastboot. still it is stuck on that loading screen.
now i'd really like to use this rom with the bubba kernel.
any clues how i could get it out of this boot cycle?
thanks
-t.
2.4.4.0 is kinda crap in certain things. Flashing roms is one of them. Please use 2.3.3.0 as this will work.
why do you think that twrp version is the problem?
flashing this rom with 2.4.4 has worked well, so flashing over the same ROM with it shouldn't be problem...?
when flashing or wiping everything seems to work normally.
also, i am not sure how to downgrade twrp!?
best,
-t.
edit: okay i found out, fastboot flash recovery .. should work. i'll let you know if it works afterwards *fingers crossed*
edit2: reflashing the ROM it takes much longer (maybe thats good?) i just hope it finishes at some point...
edit3: okay, so re-flashing with twrp 2.3.3.0 did'nt work either, it is still stuck at the "PAC loading..." stage
(yes, i flashed the boot.img too)
any more clues?
finally i had this phone set up just the way i wanted, it was perfect and then this. why couldn't it just keep working
makes me sad, i want to use my phone damnit
okay, so i flashed and wiped and flashed and wiped a few times, system, cache, dalvik whatever, suddenly it started working... i also flashed some different kernels (as i thought some bubba stuff might still be there)
soo IDK what it was but now it works again, thank god..
maybe its worth mentioning that i flashed an older PAC rom (v22.0.1_20130324-230044) though i am not sure if that was the problem...
Sorry, I was off for some time from this forum.
If your bootloader version is > 1.09 you'll have to flash the kernel separately due to some restrictions in the higher bootloader versions.
If e.g. you flashed boot.img only from the 'bubba.zip' you're missing some of the modules needed for working coming with that flashable zip. Just have a look inside the zip file and you'll see some different content besides the boot.img. So you need to flash the complete zip file (to get the modules) and separately again the boot.img (to get the kernel itself).
The point about 2.4.4.0 / 2.5.0.0 is, that some installer scripts for some roms don't work as they should.
:good:
Hey,
Thanks, yeah but the thing is I installed Bubba right I think. Even manually copying the modules and setting the permissions...
and it has been working. Does the system lose modules when the permissions are not exactly right? I remember leaving the exec permission on for the modules because I was lazy
Well nevermind I guess I learned something from this little action that cost me most of my precious Saturday...
Also I now tried flashing twisted 3 and bulletproof kernel neither of them worked for pac rom, maybe someone could explain to me which kernel works for which rom? I thought they are completely interchangeable as long as they are compatible to the hardware..
And how do boot images work? I thought if you flash a boot image it overrides the old one, but flashing a Rom and then only installing a boot image from some kernel doesn't end with booting the rom (that's how I tried to repair it in the first place )
Well, appreciate the help.
Best,
#t.
Sent from my One S using xda app-developers app harhar
Bulletproof is for sense
HTC_One_S | S-OFF | ViperOneS_2.2.0 | Black-Blue_Sense_Theme | ElementalX_4.2
Aha okay, I thought sense is like any app running ontop of any kernel...alright.
Sent from my One S using xda app-developers app
tehtomi said:
Hey,
Thanks, yeah but the thing is I installed Bubba right I think. Even manually copying the modules and setting the permissions...
and it has been working. Does the system lose modules when the permissions are not exactly right? I remember leaving the exec permission on for the modules because I was lazy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Usually the installer script should set the right permissions already. Nah, modules shouldn't go lost this way ( system/lib/modules/*.ko).
tehtomi said:
And how do boot images work? I thought if you flash a boot image it overrides the old one, but flashing a Rom and then only installing a boot image from some kernel doesn't end with booting the rom (that's how I tried to repair it in the first place )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In short: boot.img = kernel
It's stored in an own partition (block) on the phone, That's why you have to use 'fastboot flash boot boot.img'. Same for radio: 'fastboot flash radio radio.img' and so on. The bootloader will load them first from this block. But search Google if you'd like to know more. lol
Usually there is a boot.img file in any rom.zip that can be extracted and flashed also it's supposed to be flashed with the rest of rom.zip in one go. Blame htc for their bootloaders which prevent you from this. That's why we talk about htc's half assed bootloader unlock.
To come to an end: There are sense based roms, AOSP and AOKP based roms. Whereas AOSP and AOKP based kernels could be interchangeable, sense based kernels are only compatible to htcs sense UI. That's why you can't mix them up with all the roms out there. Sense is deeply integrated into kernel.