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I been using the iphone today.....what a smooth operator...everything just flows...the page animations the opening of applications...the look and feel, the way touch works. The typing (mind you Cooteks Touch and icontact is on par with it )very impressive...it even takes batter pictures than the cruise and its only got a 2meg camera...using my cruise everything is laggy....I cant wait for the drivers or update. If people like larna and others can do wonders to the speed of applications then what the hell are original developers and manufacturers doing. I say thank you for this forum...If HTC/Microsoft had been thorough as Apple was with the iphone the cruise/WM would be a different beast altogether.
I think Microsoft must be going through what Mercedes and BMW went through when the first Lexus model came out and caught them sleeping.
Nice phone the iphone but very limited when compared to ours....but things could change.
I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
I think a capacitive Display would help much. I'm often not sure if pressing a soft button worked. That makes working on it feeling laggy (beside slow program starts).
The WM developers have ignored any work on the UI for years. Now they got payback, the WM UI looks like an ugly Windows 95 UI and is totally outdated.
You can see that a smooth UI is possible by looking at pointui.
But do not forget the WM advantages.
All the availabe software, for example WMwifirouter.
That on iphone? I think it will never be...
Agreed....I can only fault Microsoft in Slow Deveopement....whereas the Manufacturers trying to make everyhing generic compatible instead of optimizing....now if they even aimed for the latter, no only would our devices be useably versatile, they would be decently fast and efficient.
We can only hope that WM7 will better developed for touch and hopefully not a memory hogger ...aka Vista.
On June 2008 the rumor say we will have a 3G Iphone + integrated GPS + open SDK. All for not more than $500 USD.
Nobody will touch the touch cruise with a stick at that point (unless the price will be reduced to $250, or something close). So I believe we're going to see new phones from HTC pretty soon.
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
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With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).
Noam23 said:
With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).
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I hate to say it but I think he's right.
I can and only will speak for myself, even though that may be the case for everyone else as well; but I use a WM based device because of the software. While the iPhone is faster, better looking, smoother flowing...as of right now it is locked down and requires hacks just to browse the file system!!
TheOnly1 said:
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
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If you are reffering to the current iPhone, i would have to say you are DEAD on. However, if the new one lives up to what people are saying about it (an SDK, gps, 3g),
Then apple would have successfully created something that achieves both outcomes: A cool device with a fast, smooth flowing UI WITH functionality and productivity.
remoh said:
I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
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Actually, it is up to the OEMs, not microsoft, to optimize windows mobile for each of their devices. This is where HTC fails time after time in my mind.
Microsoft gives them every opportunity to implement things accelerated graphics, among other things. HTC does not do it!!
And then has the audacity to blame the customers for buying devices based on their chipsets instead of what is actually implemented (or NOT implemented -- LOL).
Since my last HTC purchase of the Touch Cruise, which cost me almost $900 I am extremely upset and dissapointed, not to mention disillusioned. The kaiser and the TC could have been great, but HTC did not want them to be -- they are slow, clunky, unresponsive at times, and i don't see why HTC even put a camera on them 'cause the pictures and video are better left not being captured at all.
If the new iphone lives up to it's promises, i see no reason to ever purchase, nor use another htc product ever again. That is the thing though...Apple is one of those companies I just do not trust and/or like....but just having the possibility of a device like the new iphone will keep my interest peaked!
If everything goes as planned, I believe that mobile developers will definately take advantage of the SDK.
While it will take many months for all the developers out there to create good applications, it will happen.
I'll actually go as far as saying that iPhone software will in fact exceed that of WM software in the future -- Provided that apple releases a decent sdk and does not place absurd restrictions on developers.
Think about it...how long have WM devices been out for...and what is their popularity?
Compare that to how long the iPhone has been out for, and it's popularity...
While currently they are for two completely different concepts;
one for user friendly every day usage, and one a "business" device...
apple seems to be combining both concepts into something that I would consider a "dream" device that I have been waiting for from HTC to put out for years now.
I thought that the TC would in fact be something closely resembling my "dream" device -- And after I actually used it and saw all of the problems with it first hand, I quickly recognized I was completly wrong.
Let's see if Apple can successfully accomplish what HTC has consistently set out to -- and subsequently failed to do so many times.
If they can pull this off, I will definately consider myself a proud iphone owner / user.
i have to admit the only reason i did not buy an iphone its because i did not want to switch to at&t and evryone where i work has one. i just wanted something different so i bought the touch cruise. i am regreting it even as i type. 700plus usd down the drain. when the new iphone is out this summer i am definitely getting one and switching to at&t
i wish i could get my hands on one of the htc developers. i would beat the life out of him. for real. i am mad and pissed. even the clone iphone, the hiphone which i saw with my own two eyes and held in my hands is better than touch cruise. its only 200usd
There are a lot of Touch user using WM device not having too many complaint. I like UI and build of iPhone, but I never forget the experience what smart phone of Nokia and Sony Ericsson running in Symbian. People will just imagine what Apple will enhance the iPhone and offer what we have used in WM device. Just like people asking why manufacturer not offering VGA device. Why don't have a look of the delay of Sony Ericsson X1? Keep an eye on what Apple implement the SDK into their iPhone and software developer introduce program, and to compare what we have with WM device. Looking forward to have a device running in X OS with VGA display with weeks of power with plenty choice of softwares .... and lastly without lag. Just like years ago we are looking for a VGA WM device. Manufacturer like HTC will make such device if it can.
Are you guys serious about the Touch Cruise camera being poor? It has one of the best cameras I've ever seen on a mobile, save for the lack of flash.
-3 Megapixels
-Autofocus
-Excellent macro mode (try taking a picture of anything close up (~3inches) with this vs. a normal camera under normal lighting...TC holds its own, or better yet take a picture of something close up and compare those results to those of an IPhone)
-Auto switch to night mode in poor lighting (remember camcorders with night mode also exhibit lag in night mode, but normal cameras don't lag as they don't use a night mode since they have a flash!)
I must agree with Sonus on the camera. I actually printed out some pictures I took with my TC and they were pretty much OK on paper.
i do believe the tc is a very good device with advantages and disadvantages same as the iphone.
the thing that annoys me most (also while writing this text) the input lags in the touch keyboard or other apps, e.g. switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.
the good things are:
100% customization
tons of apps - navigation, wlm etc
lastly, i have see the iphone hanging - it could not connect immediately to wifi
I'm positive Apple is not going to put HTC out of business on June 2008, when the 3G iphone is supposedly coming out.
HTC will definitely release formidable competition on fall 2008, probably the dream machines we always wanted to have. My only complaint is that the Touch Cruise / Kaiser have the hardware to be much of that "dream machine", but aren't so because HTC doesn't think it is necessary since these products are competitive enough as it is, in today's market.
I agree with the only1.
Just think of it in business terms, the iphone and touch cruise are aimed at different markets. HTC could probably produce a iphone type device but why should it. HTC devices are more business orientated and sold as such, they are not (imho) trying to compete with consumer based ideas and what looks sexy when playing music or videos. They are aimed at different markets.
If people want a device to look good show off pictures and videos and play music they buy a iphone, for gods sake its a ipod touch that makes calls, so no comparison.
If people want to do all of the above and have a device that can be used as a great business tool buy a touch cruise.
Okay there are some faults but they will probably be fixed on the next device but that too will have its shortcomings and we will give out **** about it and compare it to the newest goddam wonderful iphone, jphone, kphone or whatever with hdtv or can make coffee but thats life. I know we paid big money for what we have but for jaysus sake its "not ****en dark". i.e. you could see what your were buying.
Just my opinion.
A bit strong maybe but thats life.
I dont know what you guys have done to your devices to make the camera so good, but unless i am taking pictures outside when it is sunny out, it will NOT come out clearly at all -- it is very distorted and grainy, not to mention it slows down to a crawl! I have a sony cybershot 2.1 MP camera from 2002 that takes better pictures than a TC cam -- and it cost about 150$ 6 years ago. When its dark or indoors, the LCD on the cybershot doesn't slow down to 1-5 FPS.
Now people say that the TC is a business device and that's true.
But, I for one am sick of trading off functionality for performance on the business devices produced from HTC.
Why can't it be both at the same time?
Unfortuneately, I did go in the dark on this one. Before I bought the TC I didn't research the video driver problems.
I only looked at the specs, researched the chipset and thought I was getting something that would (at least) out perform my PPC-6700 that I purchased over 3 years ago. I was wrong. I don't think HTC will go out of business...not at all, but i DO think that alot of people are in a similar boat that I am in...betrayed by HTC and will continue to hold a grudge against them, and subsequently switch to someone who can provide something better in the future...hopefully, that can be Apple...but I definately have some doubts to say the least, considering what the current iPhone came out as -- a Media player with a phone on it.
PseudoReal said:
switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.i
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OMG, i have the SAME problem...it is the WORST!!
you have to tap the stupid triangle like 50 times just to get it to switch.
It's an atrocity. Devices from 3 years ago do not even have this problem.
Business device or not, this is just plain unacceptable.
Unless there is a fix for this problem, or I am doing something wrong and do not know about it?
How many ppl have similar experience?
I have that same problem. Takes multiple clicks and major lag to get the input keyboard to show up. The reason I have to chance keyboards is I often use Opera 9.5 and for some reason none of the Touch keypads work with it, so I have to switch them (I think that's another problem could be related to Opera still being beta). Also every once in awhile I can't get to the PocketCM keyboard and instead get the lame Windows default one. But that also is another problem.
Back to the lag, every once in awhile I will get lag here or there, e.g. will click on the task manager on the top right and not get anything, keep clicking around with no response. Then all of a sudden all the clicks take effect and I will see the task manager menu open and close in succession real quick.
All in all it's a good device, great functionality, just a few quirks here or there. Maybe it's time to hard-reset or flash a new ROM that might solve some of these things, who knows.
Oh forgot, as for the camera lag with the low FPS in low light conditions, check out this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=365345
HTH
thanks for that... the "trick" described in the first post does increase the response by 10 fps or so, but the thing is, the picture quality also goes down...its a lose/lose situation i guess lol...I also noticed that there is a new .dll fix on the HTC E-club, but only for the kaiser. I tried to login but it says theyre doing maintainance right now, so I can't check if there's anything released for the TC...even so I doubt there is
but my issue is, and always has been..why should i need to do all of these tricks and patches for a device that costs as much as the TC does? I shouldn't. No one should.
also another thing that came to my mind...people and HTC say this is a "business device"...so i was thinking, wouldn't business users want their devices to be MORE responsive than a media player / cool trendy "sexy" device?
I mean when you need to wait 5 seconds and tap the screen multiple times to play a music file, it's not really that big of a deal...it's an annoyance yes but it doesn't result in you losing work time..or a loss of productivity
but when you need to tap the X button 5 times to close out of a document and switch to your email...or taking notes and browsing web pages for work related stuff...or trying to switch between SIP's...and having to wait because the device lags worse than windows 95...it becomes a loss of productivity...
even if it's only seconds, those seconds add up, and the annoyances stock pile into one big ball of rage for me at least, heh.
I do admit that my own foolishness and quickness to buy a new device is partly to blame here. I should have looked into it more. But I also think that HTC holds a good part of the blame as well.
hopefully the geniuses here can come up with some good fast custom roms that will deal with these issues...i won't hold my breath waiting for this patch to come out from HTC at the end of the month. I'm doubtful that it will do anything at all.
Before I get started, please don't scream. I am just *waiting* for the douchebag assault to begin, because after all, this is an internet forum and it'll happen come hell or high water no matter what I say. This post is not for the douchebags, it's for the reasonable people who are willing to discuss, listen and talk in a rational way.
I got my first fuze the day before launch (November 10th), and out of the gate it was problematic. Now, I was and still am enamored by the feature set, and the hardware is amazing when it's working right. My first fuze locked up and crashed programs *constantly*. After a week and a half I exchanged it for another, and this was a better experience, but still flawed.
Fuze #2 never once locked up, but it did crash programs pretty frequently. Not every day and not every program and not even consistently, but it did so with enough frequency to be damn annoying. The AT&T software load, as everyone already knows, is complete ****. It makes a 528Mhz phone with 8 times the RAM of my old Wizard feel slower than the Wizard with a hacked ROM, and that's just sad. I've been using my Wizard (a cingular 8125) since launch, and I can honestly say that unlike most phones the experience only kept getting *better* as the hardware aged, and it was able to do so as a direct result of the fine folks of XDA who have cooked up some really amazing ROM's. The work you guys do is phenomenal and it only gets better as time goes on.
And so I loaded up a custom ROM from here on my Fuze. It was, to say the least, WORLDS better than the AT&T stock ROM. But it still had its annoyances. Some programs would still crash. There was still hesitation here and there when using the Manila 3D UI. Finding and acquiring software to run on it is a pain. Don't get me wrong--Windows Mobile has GOBS of great software available and I've blown hours upon hours finding it, playing with it, enjoying it, over the last 2 and a half years.
Of course, that's part of the problem--to get the really good stuff you have to search endlessly all over the web to find the really great stuff for WinMo. XDA is a terrific place because there is so much stuff discussed and linked to, but even here you have to trudge through miles of posts and it's a pain, plus there's the whole process of downloading, unarchiving, copying to the device, installing to the device--only to do it all over again when the next great ROM comes out. This isn't the fault of anyone here, but it's evidence of a problem that's grown beyond the community's ability to solve--the problem is with Windows Mobile itself and the infrastructure that does--or more accurately does NOT--support it.
Let me 'splain. When I finally had enough of my Fuze, I took it back to AT&T to find something else. I dicked with the Blackberry, I hated it. I've always hated blackberry, both from an infrastructure support side and from an interface side. So that was out. I've never been an Apple guy EVER. In college we had some piece of **** Mac's that were just miserable to use and I learned very well to hate them, so I hadn't even considered an iPhone.
And then I tried it. My first response, as an official Mac hater, was to find its flaws. The camera is mediocre (2mp? LAME!). But then, I have a REAL camera for taking any serious pictures (let's face it, no cell phone camera is going to replace a nice Canon or Nikon any time soon for high end photography). The screen resolution isn't as nice as the Fuze...yet it's still better than the Wizard was, and it's not so low that it ends the world. I hate that there are no hardware buttons except for Home, Power, Mute and the volume toggle, but then, the Fuze wasn't replete with buttons either and I'd already weaned myself off the Wizard's multiple buttons anyway. And it pisses me off that I can't use a friggin' MicroSD card to cheaply expand my storage.
But then I started to see what the device is really all about, and what really blew me away is how easy it is to use and to access a fat library of good apps, both paid and free. I don't even have to leave the device, I can browse it all straight from the phone, install it straight from the phone in a single step, and when I plug it into my PC it's all synced. When the next software update happens I just sync and everything I installed is put right back where I wanted it to be.
In short, I finally see why people are tripping over the iPhone. It's not the hardware, because let's face it the iPhone is outclassed in hardware by plenty of phones, including the Fuze. It's the interface, it's the software, it's the ease of use. And for me, at this point in my life where I'm trying to do more with my time than ever before, that makes it a great device choice for me. The iPhone, simply enough, will save me time and effort, and it enables me to do things I just can't do with Windows Mobile.
Now, my sincere hope is that WinMo 7 fixes these many issues. I hope it comes with an easy and fast UI. I hope the devices have multitouch screens. I hope there is finally an integrated backend infrastructure and an app store that nets easy access to both developers and consumers of applications and games. I hope it standardizes on a required minimum of built in storage but outdoes Apple by allowing you to expand it further with MicroSD (or whatever the hell comes next, but man do I hope NanoSD isn't next or I'll never be able to find my goddamn cards). And for goodness sakes, STOP vendors from loading the damn phones with all this bloat!
Compared to what Apple's done with the iPhone OS it feels like Windows Mobile is standing still, like Microsoft has dropped the ball and just stood there slack jawed as it rolled away. Maybe it's because they're so focused on kicking Sony in the nuts in the console wars, I dunno. All I can tell you is that what iPhone's software is today, WinMo's should have been a long time ago. The only reason it's survived this long is because guys like the geniuses on this forum have made it do things it was clearly never built to do in the first place.
With any luck I'll be trading in my iPhone for a WinMo 7 device, but I guess that remains to be seen. To everyone who's done anything for this community, I want to say thanks, because you made my enjoyment of my Wizard a true joy for almost 3 years.
Thanks,
Jason
I have mostly always used WM devices but in the mix of my many phones I have used both iPhones and I too agree that the interface is much simpler, easier to use, and direct, I also agree that certain apps specifically the games on the iPhone are uncomparable to the WM devices. Lastly, also think that the ease of app searching in the iPhone is the best, just browsing through the many apps is a joy.
With that said, using the iPhone is (to me) frustrating because most if not all apps crash, the web surfing is a pain because I remeber surfing and safari would constantly close. I traded my iPhone for the fuze and updates have done little to improve these problems, my wife still has the iphone 3g and I always have the same problems on her phone. In addition, I exchange my iphones multiple times because of these problem and they kept on happening. The only truly thing I miss from the iphone are the games and sometimes the appstore. The lack of multitasking is also horrible even by using the background tasking app when jailbreaking doesn't solve this dilema.
It really depends on what you need.
I honestly couldn't care less about the whole openness debate.
At least personally, I can jailbreak and get whatever (ok, maybe not) I want on an iphone.
The ui is much more responsive, and the screen is much larger.
BUT! I need physical keys, and that pretty much was the sole reason to not consider anything else.
Yesterday, while on the train, I was reading some stuff on Opera, while listening to music on Kimona, and typing away on Word, while swtiching between apps using Task Facade. Can I do this on the iPhone? Not as far as I know.
And about the larger screen, if I need to be typing frequently, the larger screen really doesn't benefit me since half of it will be filled with a virtual keyboard; what matters is a high res display. After comparing the two side by side, my choice was pretty clear.
Then there's another thing about the whole "responsiveness" debate. Honestly, at least with custom ROM's (which is really a bad excuse, since no one should have to do this to get past the minimum responsiveness), and running one app at a time, it's very snappy.
My point is, I find it inaccurate to state that the Fuze is a gateway to an iPhone without considering the target group and general purpose of winmo devices. Granted, more winmo phones want to hit the mainstream market, but let's face it, Fuze isn't targeted to hit any of the consumers out there. At&t did absolutely nothing to market it, and that really should be enough to invalidate the statement you provided. After all this is a forum where more technically inclined people hang around.
Wow, that's a lot of words. I'm surprised my ADD didn't kick in while reading it.
If you think that the iPhone will free you from crashes, think again. Yes, the interface is slick, but it is not the flawless stable system you see on the TV adds. I had the IPhone for a month before and returned it for the Fuze mainly because I got tired of Safari as well as any other memory intensive app constantly crashing.
The phone just doesn't have enough memory to be as good as it can be. My wife still has her iPhone which I recently upgraded to firmware version 2.2. This weekend, out of the blue, I asked her how it was performing. She replied "I just has to reboot the phone a minute ago."
I figure, if I have to deal with software lagginess and crashes, I might as well have a system that is accessible and customizable instead of one that is locked down. Oh, and the few extra buttons on the Fuze certainly do make a difference. But really, I find the Fuze with a new ROM MUCH MUCH more stable than the iPhone ever was.
Nice post, well thought out and honest. I, too, have a Fuze and am considering an Iphone. The bigger screen is a major factor; the Fuze screen is just so .. small! high-res is great, but pointless when you need to zoom in so close on things to read them that you might as well be running QVGA.
It seems I have a love/hate relationship with the Fuze, as many do here. One day, it drives me nuts -- Opera freezes up, scrolls and zooms in and out and behaves weird, the phone acts slow, bad GPS fix, and so on. I get frustrated and seriously consider returning it. Then, the next day it works like a dream! Quick GPS fix, opera works perfect, I discover something I did not know about before (i.e., circling your finger on a portion of a photo to zoom in right there -- cool!) and I would be sad to see it go.
I guess all we can do is be patient. As you said, other phones got better with age; I think it stands to reason that the same thing will happen with the Fuze. As better optimized web browsers get released (i.e., Fennec) and (hopefully) video drivers get updated, the whole experience should get better. If by some miracle we get WM7, who knows what that might bring. yeah, the hardware is frustrating -- small screen, weird buttons, no headphone jack -- but I think it is enough to deal with for now if we can get the software and drivers all optimized.
Thanks for all the great replies, guys. So far I have had the iPhone for just a shade over 48 hours, and I've updated to 2.2. I've experience no crashes yet, but I did need to reboot once after installing an app last night (weird, yet no biggie to me because I'm used to it in the Windows world).
I have to agree--I HATE that I can't run more than one app at a time on the iPhone. I don't know why they do that, but I can only presume that it's done that way in order to force memory to stay free so the OS remains quick and responsive. It's kind of a ****ty tradeoff IMHO, but at the same time...I'm liking the responsiveness and I *usually* don't do more than one thing at a time anyway. It's nice to have the option though.
By all means, I don't think Fuze is a waste at all (except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA), and I think that when it matures it'll be damn difficult to beat. I fully expect WinMo7 to eventually arrive on it (barring some bizarre hardware requirements, but who knows?), but even if it doesn't I think the ROM devs around here will eventually harness this thing into a terrific device. Unfortunately I just don't feel like waiting around, because for my almost $400 out the door I feel I should have walked out of the AT&T store with a phone that blew the doors off most others without any need for a hack.
On the bright side, by the time the ROM's are really mature and crazy fast/stable, the Fuze will probably have dropped in price substantially
For those developing ROM's, some of my thoughts on UI are:
1. Larger buttons! Especially for closing apps and using drop downs, those tiny little default X's are miserable for finger access. Finger friendly is the way of the future.
2. Customize Touchflo. I've seen some slick youtube videos with guys doing very iPhone/Coverflowish stuff and it appears buttery smooth. Of course, I could never find where to get the software to try it out, but if it's doable, heck...do it
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
Just some thoughts!
I can relate to OP. I'm upgrading form a Wizard as well (T-Mo US MDA). While new ROM's certainly made my Wizard better, I can say that custom ROM's on it were not an absolute requirement. While I continued to be more amazed by my Wizard, I just continue to be a little less pissed off at my Fuse.
XDA is the ONLY reason I have not returned my Fuze. I'm finally back to a totally stripped ROM, with no fancy I wish I bought an IPhone TouchFlo Horse ****, and no AT&T application Douchebaggery.
OP, I feel you on the lack of buttons. I miss playing pocket Nester / GB on my Wizard. I think it says alot when it is totally outclassed and still sticks around as my "GameBoy".
I definitely have mixed feelings about the Fuze. I waited to buy this over the Tilt for the camera, and I have been somewhat impressed by it. I miss the Wizard's Keyboard layout and overall style, with the buttons NOT touching each other.
@Fatheadpi,
I can't agree more (though I am rather enamored with the iPhone's UI. It's not the animation and all that crap though, it's the sheer *speed* of it and ease of getting to anything I want to get to).
Fuze is an impressive piece of hardware, yet at the same time there are issues with it--primarily software--that are really hard to overlook on such an expensive device.
The iPhone has been around for quiet a while now, and has had 2 revisions. The Fuze is fresh out of the box, so making a comparison so early in it's release is a little judgemental. it is possible that alot of out problems can be solved by a nice ROM update (like video drivers). Or just out right fixed by custom ROMs here. if you think that apple listens to what the people want, just take a look at the cut/paste, or Video recording issues.
One of the "great" things about the iPhone is one of it's biggest weakness too. The app store, while its a one stop shopping for apps, is also controled by apple, and they are the final say on what kind of programs you are allowed to run on your device. You also can write new ones (think Schaps Advance config) you have to take what they want you to have and like it. If you try to break their rules, then you might find yourself owning a brick when you sync it.
I think you need to look at this in a little bit of a different light here.
Apple has for the most part stated that they are a software company; almost all of their efforts these days are portals to Itunes where Apple makes money hence the reason for lacking hardware but great UIs and access to Itunes. They make loads more money on Itunes than on hardware.
Looking at this from AT&T's viewpoint they make money on data plans, minutes, texting, basically anything crossing their network so these types of things work great on the phone.
A third party to all of this is HTC which has to make something attractive but gets no additional money at all after you buy the hardware.
So looking at it this way, it makes perfect sense why a pleasurable experience on a Winmo device is driven by the end user, in essence no one else is interested in your problem because they don't make money off of you.
So maybe some entrepreneur out there should figure out a nifty UI like iTunes but for Winmo where a user can buy a new ROM, or try out/buy some cool apps and so forth, figuring out a cool way to upgrade the device.
The real truth here is that Apple owns everything about the iPhone, there is no one entity that owns Winmo devices so individuals end up taking over and this creates multiple and sometimes confusing paths to good stuff.
-Tim
jasongw said:
(except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA)
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If they don't do that, we may have to pay more for the device. So I really don't mind all the bloatware (you get what you pay for )
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
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http://getgecko.org/
I think these guys are trying to do just that. The problem is, ironically, but obviously, the openness.
Then there's this. It's from handango. Never tried it, probably not even close to what apple has. It's not the lack of it, but the way it's presented, which is precisely why--and you nailed this point--iphones sell. Of course, as I mentioned previously, most winmo users are at least prosumers, so they know what to do without all the oversimplifications.
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
@g2tl-- Gecko seems like a great idea, I really hope they make some good progress. I hadn't heard of that before, but I'll definitely be following their progress from here on out! Thanks for the heads up!
As for getting what you pay for, that's almost always true but I think there's an exception here. On the fuze you're getting more impressive hardware, but you're getting a much less polished piece of software that's quite outdated and difficult to manage by modern standards. Now, I'm a 13 year IT geek (good lord, did I just admit that?) so I've never been afraid of getting my hands dirty, and goodness knows it's a miracle my old 8125 survived all the flashing I did to it, but at a certain point it's nice for a device to just *work* without a lot of dicking around with it.
I am sure WinMo will eventually be that software, probably with WinMo7. It's just not there yet, and I think the real shame of that is that an awesome device like the Fuze (or any flavor of the touch pro for that matter) won't really be used to its full potential because the software is lagging so far behind the device itself.
Tim, I do get all that, and you're exactly right. I also think that's where a great many of the problems with WinMo come from, the fact that carriers can just shovel piles and piles of junk onto these phones just drags down the user experience.
I'd say maybe Microsoft needs to put out their own phone where they can present a coherent experience (their new Xbox Live interface is friggin' awesome), but then I'm sure we'd have a lot of crying foul from assorted carriers and competitors who cry monopoly. There's probably no easy solution from a development and implementation standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint it's actually fairly easy: go buy the device that offers what you need.
Right now for me--and surprisingly so because I never imagined buying one of these until 2 days ago--that device appears to be iPhone. I truly do hope for a WinMo7 device or even a Fuze WinMo7 hack that'll win me back eventually. I still love the dark side
jason - Suggestion for you, as this is finally what has made me very happy with my Fuse. Probably a little too late as you're running an I-Phone.
Think about this: You were a Wizard user. When you upgraded, you probably wanted a better camera, more power, and 16 gig storage options. You were probably running an OC'd cooked rom WITHOUT TouchFlo.
Here's my suggestion.
Starting from scratch, I have the phone I wanted after about an hour's work. TouchFlo 3D just continues to piss me off. The only nice things about it were the picture viewer, weather, and the music setup. However, I have music controls on my BT Headset, and I'll probably go find the HTC Music player / plugin tonite. I have HTC picture viewer installed in an out of the way place for the rare times I look at my pics. I'll figure something out for the weather option, tho I've lived without it for a number of years.
Thinking about it, it all kinda makes sense. PC users build PC's and use Windows because we know exactly what we want and how we want it. We don't put flashy, pointless bull**** interfaces up front to slow things down. (at least pre-Vista, anyways.)
Still tho, the Raphael and Diamond needed a different control pad and button set. Macs were built around the idea that an average idiot (no offense to MacFags) could just use something. PC's are designed with a bunch of buttons because PCFags will customize that to do awesome stuff.
jasongw said:
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
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I'll have to dissagree with you there, as the hardware is so different, it's a copletely different device. I came from the Hermes(8525) and it's not even close to the same(and I did love my heremes)
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
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I think what I said just came out wrong. I think over-critical would have been more accurate. I think that we look at things in perspective, and make decisions based on our needs. While I know that neither device is perfect(what one is?) we just need for figure out what job does the job best for us, and makes us happy.
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
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Don't forget that not all of thoes apps are free, and you don't get demos of stuff try make sure they work as advertised. I have friends that nickle and dime themselves too death due to the app store. I don't think the idea is bad idea by any means though.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
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iPhone users have been asking for thoes 2 functions for well over a year, and they all say...Its comming soon...for a year now. I'm guessing that Mr. Jobs doesnt want you to have it for some reason.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
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I won't dissagree with you on that. 6.1 was a bigger improvement that 5 to 6 was. Hopping that 6.5 will get the boost it very much needs. And don't ever forget that Touchflo 3D was HTCs way of hiding the windows interface, due to its seriously unfrendlyness. But also remember that iPhone was geared towards the casual Multi-media use, and the Fuze is aimed towards the average power user.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
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I will agree with that. But just like the arguement over PC vs mac, it's not a fair comparison. It needs to be Dell XPS vs Mac, or Toshiba Satalite vs Mac. There is no such thing as a PC (technicaly a Mac is a PC too...Personal Computer). And Apple has the unfair advantage of only writing software for papriatary hardware, where Microsoft has to write software for millions of combinations of hardware, and in the end it's all about drivers.
In the end, see what serves your needs best, but I do not think that the Fuze will drive anyone to be iPhone users. With the Fuzes lack of advertising, and the Apple's Mind numbing advetising, I think that people that look at the fuze as an option already have the mindset that the iPhone just will not do what they need.
In advance let me say thanks to everyone for having such a civil discussion. I am thoroughly impressed and appreciative. I was *sure* somebody would have come in with the raving and yelling attitude by now and I've happily been proven wrong. I REALLY appreciate that; flame wars got old and boring a loooong time ago IMHO
@Fatheadpi,
Thank you for the suggestion. At some point in the future I hope to get another fuze or perhaps its successor. Of course, by then I hope for WM7 and an actual answer to the ease of use features in iPhone (I'm still a PC guy at heart, I'd love to see Apple get ***** slapped at their own game). Suffice to say, unless AT&T cleans up its act (which I doubt, they never did do right by Wizard users and it was only XDA cookers who made that device be all that it could be) I am sure that the Fuze will continue to be a "Cooked ROMs only" device.
@JBlakk,
Wow, what a nice response . I won't go point by point, but I think you've made a lot of good points, and I agree with many. Hell, I still build my own PC's (I've only recently started using Vista though, and I mostly hate it so I turn off almost all the fancy crap).
Also I think you definitely have a point about the marketing aspect and who the fuze is (or at least ought to be) targeted toward. I'd make the argument though that if AT&T is targeting the "power user" they still missed the mark with the software by loading it will all that ridiculous bloat.
I like the appearance of TouchFlo3D, but man the performance is just sad, especially on such a high end piece of phone hardware. My biggest gripe is absolutely in the software execution, but I am, to reiterate again, quite confident that as the ROM's mature and the cookers get their heads around the nuances of the phone itself, we'll see some amazing performance from Fuze.
Thanks again guys! It's been loads of fun
Jason
I'll be civil...
I understand what you are saying, if you just want something that works 99.9% of the time the iPhone is the perfect phone for you. I however like to play with things and no how much I deny it I like finding problems and fixing them, and Microsoft's products are perfect for that. Also the open source-ness of M$ is another thing that draws me to their products.
I was worried, being an open Apple hater(I have nightmares about getting iPhones for Christmas...), that AT&T would not carry another phone with a touch screen after they signed the deal with Apple. The Touch Pro is/will be perfect for me in that sense. Apple is flashy and pretty, but extremely constrained in the sense that Apple likes to keep it's followers in a choke hold, but that's my opinion too.
I also like the keyboard of the Fuze/Touch Pro/Raphael(Why do they need so many names for the same device?!)
So in short I'm not going to flame you because you chose an Apple product over a M$ one, I honestly don't care as it's your money and your decision. I think the latest Touch Pro's are better than the first release models though...but that could be just speculation.
((Also the lack of cut/copy/paste is an EXTREME drawback for me))
I also went to the darkside (iPhone) after returning my fuze. I have said it in previous posts and to my co-workers that have both iPhones and WinMo devices - it. just. works.
Being an engineer/sys admin by trade I love to tinker and tweak and rip apart and put back together stuff, but in this case the effort it took to get the Fuze/TP to a usable state [for me] wasn't worth it. I am at the stage of my life where I don't have the time to play (7 mo. old will do that to ya).
I wouldn't kick a free or deeply discounted Fuze/TP out of bed, lol, but as many have said, it's what you want out of a device and I needed my device to work out of the box.
That said, so far so good. About 2 trouble-free weeks with the iP3G.
I still come here daily to keep up on the HTC WinMo happenings to satiate my tinker desire. But the iPhone is here to stay - or until WinMo 7 drops at least.
When it comes to android, you know that you have an outstanding range of hardware. From the low-end Optimus T/S to the titans of the OS such as the Galaxy S2, and everything imaginable in between. These days, you can even find generic china phones running an, often dated, android. Every carrier has it, they come in all price ranges, and they're available on demand. The question I pose to you, "Is android's key selling point the hardware?"
I understand that numerous XDA members and even some outsiders enjoy the limitless customization options made readily available in android and that's awesome. However, the general consumer is happy to end customization at setting their own ringtone. It's not a breaking factor for the majority that you can swap out kernels. Overall, android is a decent enough platform, but for the masses, I see little that it offers, hardware aside, that it's competitors don't.
Here recently, a thread was posted regarding the ASUS Transformer 2, a pentacore processor in a tablet. Now, most people have yet to exhaust the resources on their dual core phones. A penta-core device seems to be pushing the limits. Considering that it is running a mobile OS, by the time those cores could be utilized, wouldn't the tablet be long outdated? However, I know it will sell well because the word "Penta-core" sounds too awesome for the masses to pass up.
Another occurrence I've seen, having worked in retail shops for some time. A lot of customers, when asked about what OS their phone is running, will reply, "HTC" or, "Samsung." A lot of them have no idea what our little green friend is. Another point towards my personal opinion that the hardware is a huge selling factor.
Overall, android is a very complete platform. It is not my daily driver, but I do enjoy it whenever I have time to tinker. I am inquiring about this matter to get your opinions, what sells? Hardware or software?
I think for me its a little bit of both. I like the fact that the hardware is there in my 3d when I need to push the system really hard. Its not often I do, but its good that when I do, it executes the tasks with ease.
On the same hand there are huge software benefits for me. I love the UI and that I can set swype gestures to open particular apps or settings. It makes multi tasking tthat much easier and fluid for me.
Also, at least from what I have seen with iOS5 (my girl has the 4s) is that android seems to be ahead in certain areas of functionality. For example it is not an innovative thing (to me anyways, being an android user) to be able to back up your device without the use of a computer... I have been doing wireless backups and internal backups since I bought my first android phone.
I think one thing you mentioned before... I think it was you, anyways... was pretty much right on when you said that android is capable of meeting so many different needs in the sense that you have a wide range in variety of devices to choose from and at different costs. There are high end phones available such that perform to today's standards in the mobile world, and there are lower end ones available that are more cost effective.
I feel if you yourself are innovative and creative, you are way more capable of taking an android phone and building the UI to what you want/need. I don't sacrifice functionality for speed, ever. In the end it is still just a phone, but I prefer this platform because it caters to that need I have to customize my phone the way I want it to be, not what somebody else feels it should be.
---------- Post added at 02:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 AM ----------
And to address your comment about the bajjillion core tab....
Seems the hardware is way ahead of the software in this case... therefore, I am not impressed by it.
I have a Motorola xoom and it has plenty of power to do what I need it to do. I will not be taking it back to simply have two more cores under the hood. And somebody else mentioned the new kal el device only has 1gb of ram? In my opinion that is really disappointing for a device with that kind of processing power.
i buy phones based on hardware specs
the OS is optional
I prefer to load my OS of choice
just like my PCs / Laptops
z33dev33l said:
When it comes to android, you know that you have an outstanding range of hardware. From the low-end Optimus T/S to the titans of the OS such as the Galaxy S2, and everything imaginable in between. These days, you can even find generic china phones running an, often dated, android. Every carrier has it, they come in all price ranges, and they're available on demand. The question I pose to you, "Is android's key selling point the hardware?"
I understand that numerous XDA members and even some outsiders enjoy the limitless customization options made readily available in android and that's awesome. However, the general consumer is happy to end customization at setting their own ringtone. It's not a breaking factor for the majority that you can swap out kernels. Overall, android is a decent enough platform, but for the masses, I see little that it offers, hardware aside, that it's competitors don't.
Here recently, a thread was posted regarding the ASUS Transformer 2, a pentacore processor in a tablet. Now, most people have yet to exhaust the resources on their dual core phones. A penta-core device seems to be pushing the limits. Considering that it is running a mobile OS, by the time those cores could be utilized, wouldn't the tablet be long outdated? However, I know it will sell well because the word "Penta-core" sounds too awesome for the masses to pass up.
Another occurrence I've seen, having worked in retail shops for some time. A lot of customers, when asked about what OS their phone is running, will reply, "HTC" or, "Samsung." A lot of them have no idea what our little green friend is. Another point towards my personal opinion that the hardware is a huge selling factor.
Overall, android is a very complete platform. It is not my daily driver, but I do enjoy it whenever I have time to tinker. I am inquiring about this matter to get your opinions, what sells? Hardware or software?
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Click to collapse
First time I have to agree with you pal.BUT:
i)Those guys/gals whose customisation needs end with setting the ringtone are the ones who won't care or even won't realize if the OS is different between an iPhone and an Android device.
ii)Android offers most(if not all) of the things other OSes offer,plus the infinite customisation capabilities no other OS has.Now this is what matters for those of us who can do more than changing the ringtone.
Other than these two things,I generally agree.In the end,though,it's user preference that matters.And people's idiocy in fact.Hell,many people buy their phones depending on how many megapixels their camera can do!
AllGamer said:
I prefer to load my OS of choice
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I'd prefer that too, but mobile hardware is pretty much completely closed, so this is not really possible in practice, except maybe on very very few models.
To answer the title question: I don't know about others, but for me it's definitely the OS. Android is the closest to Linux as I'll probably get on a phone, people are free to cook up their own ROMs (not completely free in many cases, there's closed components in every ROM, but oh well), vast customization capabilities, for getting software you're not limited to one store with draconian rules and sometimes arbitrary decisions.
Certainly a combination of software + hardware with a little bit of company preference.
But considering the range of manufacturers for android based phones, I find it hard to lag behind hardware wise.
1) I look for a device that I think will last me the three years of my contract or at least the majority of it
2) I look here on XDA and see what the dev community is like
3) I buy the phone
I would guess that for 80%+ of phone buyers the main factor is price. Sure they know about the iPhone and the Samsung Galaxy devices, but for most those phohnes are out of their price bracket. So they find the device which has the same sort of idea but in a cheap package, which has helped Android no end since there are low end Android devices, and Apple have little interest in that.
For myself as a more techie person, I use Android becuase of the freedom to do what i want with my hardware. At least that's why i got into Android. Now I will continue to buy Android devices, but the major reason is I've invested in the app market, I have tens of pounds worth of apps for Android. To jump to anotehr platform now would mean having to start over with that. That's the power of these stores and markets, once you are invested changing platform is a lot more of a jump that just deciding which you like the most at the time.
countstex said:
I would guess that for 80%+ of phone buyers the main factor is price. Sure they know about the iPhone and the Samsung Galaxy devices, but for most those phohnes are out of their price bracket. So they find the device which has the same sort of idea but in a cheap package, which has helped Android no end since there are low end Android devices, and Apple have little interest in that.
For myself as a more techie person, I use Android becuase of the freedom to do what i want with my hardware. At least that's why i got into Android. Now I will continue to buy Android devices, but the major reason is I've invested in the app market, I have tens of pounds worth of apps for Android. To jump to anotehr platform now would mean having to start over with that. That's the power of these stores and markets, once you are invested changing platform is a lot more of a jump that just deciding which you like the most at the time.
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I've seen the price comment being made multiple times but aren't these devices pretty close to each other in terms of price after a 2 yr contract? In fact if you shop around, you can find some of these highend units for nearly nothing from online stores such as amazon
As for me, overall package is what sold me to galaxy s2. Form factor, hardware specs, overall implementation of the OS (gpu acceleration various places), etc. Version number really doesn't really bother me (2.3.3 vs 2.3.4/5/6/7) as long as there aren't any key features missing in the current revision that exists in the newer revisions.
Gusar321 said:
I'd prefer that too, but mobile hardware is pretty much completely closed, so this is not really possible in practice, except maybe on very very few models.
To answer the title question: I don't know about others, but for me it's definitely the OS. Android is the closest to Linux as I'll probably get on a phone, people are free to cook up their own ROMs (not completely free in many cases, there's closed components in every ROM, but oh well), vast customization capabilities, for getting software you're not limited to one store with draconian rules and sometimes arbitrary decisions.
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Click to collapse
HD2 was a great example
then there are many other HTC devices that did the same
and a few Samsung devices as well
and there's the HP Touchpad
and...
For most people it's both.
They're attracted for the first time by the look and find the OS easy to use.
Despite people stating that the iphone is for people who just want to use a smartphone for the first time etc and Android is for techies and geeks to customise, if that were actually true then that would mean that there are a hell of a lot of geeks out there, which obviously isn't the case.
I would guess the majority of Android users' extent of customisation is changing the picture of their wallpaper, and that's the thing, with Android you can do that, it's easy to use, with the extra buttons it can seem more logical to new users compared with the single button on the iphone for instance.
It has the "apps and the wifis" that average users want, it looks good and you can make it look pretty much how you like.
Being able to just plug it into another computer and transfer files is a huge boon too, something a colleague was very disappointed with the iphone4 because of it's lack of ability.
There is 500+ android devices on the market globally, its the brand name and hardware specs that sell. Not the os.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
I'd rather say that that none of those sell the other: it's actually the price selling both, plus the "status symbol" factor thatbhas to do with Apple things. Androids are generally cheaper then both the iPhone and WP7 phones. This, plus the fact that most people don't seem to like WP7 tiled ui, basically because it doesn't "look like an iPhone" enough. That might sound harsh, like saying that most people are dumb, but it's not (only) that actually: people got used to icons since the day they got their first pc, no wonder they go for something that looks more familiar to them when they wanna buy a smartphone. Maybe Win8 will totally change the name of the game, but that's it for the moment (sadly enough I dare say).
I think we have to remember that 'most' people don't include the tiny fraction of the consumer market that are active on XDA. We make choices on a range of factors as we are better informed about both hardware and software. When we walk into a phone shop we want to assess the phone on build quality, size, Android version, display type, etc.
When the average punter walks into the same shop their buying choice usually boils down to no more than, 'Oh look, a shiny thing. I want that one'.
.
Thread moved to Android. Would advise you to read forum rules and post in correct section.
Failure to comply with forum rules will result in an infraction and/or ban depending on severity of rule break.
Do you review the content of my threads before moving them or do you see my name and play pin the tail on the donkey with the final location of the thread?
I can't believe the ATI(Adreno in spirit) and Nvidia(Tegra 1,2,3) battle is now in the mobile era, although the cpu core race is even more daunting...
It was not that long ago when 1 core dominated the market, but now we have Dualcores & Quadcores...My issue with this change is that I don't feel either are exactly required; for instance, WP7 & iOS are faster than Android, but are able to run on older hardware. And lets not forget the iPhones normally run at surprisingly low speeds, however they can get a lot done still.
I mean Samsung's SIII has a Quadcpu, but I doubt that's even necessary, what's wrong with staying in the dualcore/single range and focusing on improving the UI and general performance!?
I know I'm gonna get a lot of backlash for thinking this way, but developers will be lazy with programming if they know the HW will run whatever crap they throw at it. It's just hard to understand the logic behind increasing the core count/speed without actually fixing the problems that plagued the software(android in this case) , if you just take the time to fix the quirks then the device will run smoother. Though, it just seems companies are just interested in marketing gimmicks that most end users won't actually notice, plus most dual cores(S3, exynos,T2, etc) are competent with intensive apps.
The race for now is to produce phones with the most potential. Quad cores, when correctly optimized anyway, have much higher processing capacity and much lower power consumption when doing trivial tasks. The goal is to create interfaces that don't stutter or lag no matter how much you have going on and do so efficiently. There's also the backing of chipsets like the Tegra for high-end mobile entertainment. The end game is superphones, and the game is well afoot.
As to the necessity of it, just depends. I think most business users will be fine on dual core offerings with plenty of ram and a well-implemented overall system. For those who like to max their phones out the possibilities of the high-end development coming out is pretty great. Think about something like the Note with enough processing ability to act as a full input tablet for graphic designers, or that allows programmers to run and edit complex code on the go instead of having to drag a full-size tablet around with them. Think about doctors or researchers being able to monitor multiple sets of real-time data directly from their phones. There's certainly a market for all this, and I don't think it's an arms race just for the sake of showing off.
My $.02; hope that was all coherent.
MissionImprobable said:
The race for now is to produce phones with the most potential.
There's certainly a market for all this, and I don't think it's an arms race just for the sake of showing off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your points are all valid, but I still fear that the Software remains on a level much lower than the hardware; there are tons of Android configurations out there that prevent High Quality HW from performing optimally, due to this, the "potential" of certain devices may never be recognized.
I understand that more cores promotes a sense of efficiency and less power draws, but this tends to lead programmers to optimizing less often. Sense 3.0 was extremely sluggish, same with 4.0, but do you notice the trend? Both Sense 3/4 were made for fast SoCs, to my surprise the result was still horrid. And for your point about the mini tablet(Note), I personally feel you would see those types of Apps on iOS devices instead. For the sake of it, I don't want you to think I am an Apple fan boy(just playing devil's advocate).
Maybe those were the kind of things you only saw on Apple previously, but clearly Samsung and others are serious about competing with them.
I am on a bent for the new Google phones that are going to be being produced. Now, I am not the largest fan of quad core yet but I see great potential in dual cores. Like for running Ubuntu Android, an Ubuntu desktop from your phone to a monitor!
These new phones are looking to have 28nm cortex A15 dual core chips, that would be one hot cookie!
Sent from my PC36100 using xda premium
First, for the dispassionate stuff:
Ace42 said:
but developers will be lazy with programming if they know the HW will run whatever crap they throw at it.
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Click to collapse
Developers should be able to be "lazy" with programming: you don't see anyone going back into assembly in order to optimize their programs. Programmer cycles are a lot more valuable than machine cycles, and here more power is a good, not a bad thing.
Ace42 said:
I mean Samsung's SIII has a Quadcpu, but I doubt that's even necessary, what's wrong with staying in the dualcore/single range and focusing on improving the UI and general performance!? ...It's just hard to understand the logic behind increasing the core count/speed without actually fixing the problems that plagued the software(android in this case)
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The "logic" required is elementary economics. A competitive market causes innovation: each firm has to distinguish itself, and match the features of the others in order to stand a chance. Now, some features are more important in consumers' eyes than others, and in particular, core count/speed are very comprehensible, very easy numbers, and viable to innovate. They have to go up asap in order to compete. And so they have.
This does not mean, of course, that your "problems" must remain. In fact, looking at the S3 demos so far, I haven't yet noticed any lag at all, so perhaps they really did "fix" your problems, as you desired.
Now, for the bashing part.
Ace42 said:
My issue with this change is that I don't feel either are exactly required; for instance, WP7 & iOS are faster than Android, but are able to run on older hardware.
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This comes at a cost of so much less customizability. I find WP7 to be particularly guilty of this: only supports 480x800 resolution, no start screen background or landscape? My Launcher 7 is already more powerful than that and, thanks to not attempting any serious 3D stuff, shows no lag at all.
Ace42 said:
And lets not forget the iPhones normally run at surprisingly low speeds, however they can get a lot done still.
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The iPhone, however, makes us pay with user speed as well. Scrolling is slow, in order to maintain the illusion of smoothness, and the simplistic launcher without widgets forces you to switch around and manage everything yourself, getting data only by clicking on the appropriate app. As I hinted at the beginning, people cycles are so much more valuable than computer cycles, and sacrificing the former for the latter is nothing less than a travesty.
Currently mobile phones are more powerful than my laptops and i think this will not change. In the next few years we will have quad-core processors in watches
goompas said:
Currently mobile phones are more powerful than my laptops and i think this will not change. In the next few years we will have quad-core processors in watches
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completely agree
Google sells ads, not software, they don't really give a crap about optimizing it to the max. They leave this dirty job to OEMs, and OEMs want to sell hardware, so they only optimize it for the tiny bit that is strictly necessary in order to sell. They'd rather make better hardware than better software, and no need to blame them: they just do what they know better. Microsoft and Apple instead sell either software or a complete package of both software and hardware, so guess why they care more about it...just my 2 cents. Btw, not that one approach is better than the other, choice is good, you pick what you want.
Sent from my Lumia 800 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
vnvman said:
Google sells ads, not software, they don't really give a crap about optimizing it to the max. They leave this dirty job to OEMs... Microsoft and Apple instead sell either software or a complete package of both software and hardware, so guess why they care more about it...just my 2 cents.
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This analysis doesn't make sense (at least, not as gross as it is right now). A company optimizes software when there's some form of competitive pressure, not because they "sell software". Just look at internet explorer: that didn't get seriously worked on for years, until alternative browsers started to become rightfully popular (that is, while microsoft is surely a software company, they still managed not to "give a crap").
Maybe you mean to say that companies only bother to improve something so that it's "good enough" to face off against the competition - and that's pretty much true. For example, after grabbing the market share, apple has only been innovating just hard enough not to be too far behind its competition.
Maybe you also mean to say that companies innovate better, the closer their incentives are aligned with the innovation. This is also true, but highly misleading. For one thing, the factor most affecting one's incentives is not "the thing they are selling", but (you guessed it from above) competition. Selling software or hardware when you have a monopoly, for instance, gives you little or no incentive to innovate (whereas your criteria would've suggested the opposite).
Mind you, I think you are hitting on something; it just requires a much more thorough analysis of the incentives than just "are they selling software or ads?"
And the incentive situation is itself weird. On one hand, android ad profit is (supposedly) pretty low for google, but on the other hand, they are able to delegate the whole manufacturing and execution to other firms. Fewer rewards, but also lower costs. They do have the majority of the phone market right now (getting dangerously close to monopoly there), but this is a fragile equilibrium, with tablets a whole 'nother story. And, since they are dying to get more stock phones out (with those giant "Google" permanant search bars), one can indeed argue that they've started to care not only about selling ads, but the whole damn thing. It's gotten to the point where they need to improve stock itself (and probably the phones too, hence the motorola acquisition + multiple Nexii partnership) in order to improve their ads. And so you see that the incentives may not be nearly as maligned as you'd originally supposed.
I think that we can only benefit from this race
thebobp said:
First, for the dispassionate stuff:
Developers should be able to be "lazy" with programming: you don't see anyone going back into assembly in order to optimize their programs. Programmer cycles are a lot more valuable than machine cycles, and here more power is a good, not a bad thing.
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Being "lazy" is the reason why so many Android apps run poorly across the board; fine, I understand more power allows you to offload more work to the cpu, but that doesn't mean that's the correct method. If I were to make an app for a Dual environment I would specifically make sure each core is sharing the burden. When Dual core phones & Ginger were(and still are) united, the result was simply stunning—Ginger was definitely not optimized for dualcores. And it showed, my Sensation was so laggy under 2.3.x, it was so disheartening to see my single core devices could challenge the dual beast with ease.
thebobp said:
Now, some features are more important in consumers' eyes than others, and in particular, core count/speed are very comprehensible, very easy numbers, and viable to innovate.
This does not mean, of course, that your "problems" must remain. In fact, looking at the S3 demos so far, I haven't yet noticed any lag at all, so perhaps they really did "fix" your problems, as you desired.
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The average consumer doesn't know or can't even comprehend the raw power that certain SoCs are capable of, so I doubt they care if X phone has 2GHz and the other has 1Ghz. Apple normally doesn't boast about the CPU count in commercials, they boast about their OS & siri, that's how they win over millions each year. Everyone and their grandmothers know how flawless iOS is. Now I know I'm bashing Android severely, though I am a long time Android user and these are some of my views.
thebobp said:
This comes at a cost of so much less customizability. I find WP7 to be particularly guilty of this: only supports 480x800 resolution, no start screen background or landscape? My Launcher 7 is already more powerful than that and, thanks to not attempting any serious 3D stuff, shows no lag at all.
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True, WP7 offers the bare minimum when it comes to customization, which is an unfortunate sacrifice for speed. And Microsoft has set HW limitations to prevent fragmentation, which if I may, is devastating the Android market. We have Exynos over there, Snapdragon under there, and Tegra round yonder, and a large variety of screen types.
thebobp said:
The iPhone, however, makes us pay with user speed as well. Scrolling is slow, in order to maintain the illusion of smoothness, and the simplistic launcher without widgets forces you to switch around and manage everything yourself, getting data only by clicking on the appropriate app. As I hinted at the beginning, people cycles are so much more valuable than computer cycles, and sacrificing the former for the latter is nothing less than a travesty.
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Scrolling is slow? Are you using the 1st iPhone or something? Last time I tried my friend's 4S is was quite speedy, iOS has always been the fastest mobile OS available. If memory serves, iOS has also been GPU accelerated since the old days, a feature relatively new to Android and maybe WP7. I pretty sure you can visit every Android forum on XDA & at least 10 users will report that they have lag in X, Y, Z app. However if you did a poll with random iOS users I doubt if you would even find a black sheep.
with the launch of Nexus 5 i saw many people switch over to it..
Reasons may be many,the one which seems most evident is its configuration!
which makes me think that when Google launches a "nexus" product with such hardware does it mean that quad cores or octa cores or the massive 2 gigs of memory are really required??
do we actually need that kind of hardware for daily purposes?
Or is it just a market hype or an induced inflation that is being generated by the multinational corps?
one releases a quad... and then the other is ready to pack 8 cores...
i don't posses much of technical knowledge but do we really need all those krait cores and those exynos!
60 years back we sent people on moon with a computer that had 64kb of memory..
now don't get me wrong I am not against the technology its just that all this advanced tech is being put to the same use,which is quite capable of being handled by far less powerful machines.
When it comes to octo cores I really don't feel it's necessary for everyday use. The software is always trying use the least amount of cores possible to maximize battery life anyway. The RAM on the other hand I think is an absolute must. I remember when buying this phone thinking that 1gb of RAM (or whatever the actual usable RAM is, 787mb) was going to be great, oh how I was wrong. Just look at the multi tasking ability (or inability) on this device and that should answer the question of whether we need more RAM.
Sent from my Evita
i agree with you that RAM is a must but my point is even with all those high end specs, what you actually use the phone for has not changed over the years....
there is nothing "exceptional" people are doing with 3 gigs or RAM and 8 cores.
and everyone here must be well acquainted to the good old Nokia days and their Symbian or BB OS (or those java OS's that ran on most mobiles) at that point of time when 'Processor' and what 'GPU' and what 'Pixel density' your phone was actually never a matter of discussion or a way in which those products were advertised.
Now i don't advocate Nokia for keeping their loyal customers ignorant of the specs but it was only when "ANDROID" emerged that 'specs' started becoming a matter of concern.
because Android being a universal OS that could be ported to any device,created kinda a platform for all the companies to battle out each other with increasing specs!
now when a developer phone is launched with such hardware config it silently somehow creates a standard for all the later devices to be more advanced or atleast in par. its like a snowball effect!
and PS M not being like a child who craves for not getting those expensive toys :laugh: but as a consumer who is deluded into believing that all of these specs do matter and can somehow bring a drastic change in the way we utilize these devices.
and secondly these corporations are just giving us the technology and i feel that even they are skeptical about how to put it to use!
I agree with timmaaa, more RAM would be great to have, as the constant reloading of browser tabs (and other apps) every time you try to multi-task on this device is annoying, to say the least. Yes, the aggressive memory management is a part of the issue. But the fundamental lack of RAM is at least partially to blame.
The number of cores on the other hand, seems like one of those near-useless specs that manufacturers just flaunt for marketing purposes to those that don't really have the knowledge to even know what it means ("Look at this awesome 43 MP camera phone!"). Many folks assume more cores is better, but this is actually seldom the case.
However, a fundamentally faster/newer CPU is always going to be a welcome upgrade (similar to the RAM). A faster, smoother, and more responsive device is always going to be desirable. And as fast as smartphones and other computers have become, it always seems the software developers just add more and more bloat to the OS and apps. I know Google is talking about "one Android version" for all devices, including low end ones. But I really don't believe the hype. Consumers are always going to hunger for more features and more eye candy, and the desire for faster and faster CPUs is not going to end anytime soon.
Do we "need" this type of computing power? Heavens no. But we will "want" it nonetheless!
redpoint73 said:
I agree with timmaaa, more RAM would be great to have, as the constant reloading of browser tabs (and other apps) every time you try to multi-task on this device is annoying, to say the least. Yes, the aggressive memory management is a part of the issue. But the fundamental lack of RAM is at least partially to blame.
The number of cores on the other hand, seems like one of those near-useless specs that manufacturers just flaunt for marketing purposes to those that don't really have the knowledge to even know what it means ("Look at this awesome 43 MP camera phone!"). Many folks assume more cores is better, but this is actually seldom the case.
However, a fundamentally faster/newer CPU is always going to be a welcome upgrade (similar to the RAM). A faster, smoother, and more responsive device is always going to be desirable. And as fast as smartphones and other computers have become, it always seems the software developers just add more and more bloat to the OS and apps. I know Google is talking about "one Android version" for all devices, including low end ones. But I really don't believe the hype. Consumers are always going to hunger for more features and more eye candy, and the desire for faster and faster CPUs is not going to end anytime soon.
Do we "need" this type of computing power? Heavens no. But we will "want" it nonetheless!
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i totally agree about the one android version hype i dont think it will materialize ever.
for all the manufacturers who are just pilling up cores and claiming that their phones are 'the best' please develop something that I can take to my 70 year old granny and really blow her mind :laugh: who knows nothing about the hardware.
I know its a poor joke but think about it there is really nothing that the most high end device does which probably can be considered to be state of the art or a miracle to those people who especially no nothing about the chip inside!
i had this thought when i saw an old fellow asking for a dual core long back and his need were just texting,calls and alarms,hell he dint even have internet on his device but still the market forces persuaded him that he needs a dual core.
but then i thought even a person who has a fair technical know how about it purchases a dual core,even he doesn't use it for firing missiles(again a poor joke) but you get the point technology if its not utilized to its potential,is useless.
and forget its use,the sad part is its creating this hype of high end devices!
little off topic apple introduces 64 bit correct me if m wrong all the apps are 32 bits how will they make use of the 64 bit architecture.
its like having an Ultra HD when you don't even have a service provider that offers HD transmission!
and this is not pertaining to any device or a software upgrade issue as it may likely sound!