Related
http://smartphonebenchmarks.com/for...ion-samsungs-implementation-of-arm-cortex-a9/
^^^^^^
I'm sick of hearing people cry omg Tegra2 awesome. NO. It's great, but it's not going to make the Hummingbird obsolete. The Hummingbird has a better GPU. Balance it out and you get unnoticeable performance gains from a Tegra2. Not to mention the Tegra2 phones are coming out with Froyo which simply put doesn't have dual core optimizations, so in the end, it might even be SLOWER than the Nexus S.
What you should be waiting for is the Snapdragon and OMAP dual cores as well as the Orion. But these won't be out for a while, so why not get the Nexus S?
It's either or in this case. Don't choose a Tegra2 phone because it's a Tegra2. Choose it because it is the right phone you want, that will get upgades when you want, and is on the right carrier you want. Get a Tegra2 or a Hummingbird, that's all I have to say. They're about equal.
Just sick of the overpraise that the Tegra2 gets when we already have that power in the Nexus S.
NVIDIA - they went from ARM11 (Tegra 1) to Cortex A9 (Tegra 2), skipping Cortex A8 design altogether. Tegra 2's CPU core will be competitive but its GPU appears to be weaker than even PowerVR SGX540. Heck, even Qualcomm's Adreno 205 may outperform this GPU. On the plus side, Tegra 2 is already available on the market NOW, and smartphones based on Tegra 2 will appear during Q4 of 2010. (Read this article for more details on Tegra 2). Samsung, LG and Motorola have announced their intention of producing phones based on Tegra 2 so far.
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Power SGX540 = Hummingbird.
By no means am I saying to not get a Tegra2. All I'm saying is to not avoid the Hummingbird because you think the Tegra2 is that much better or something.
Right on anderoid! Love hummingbird but I think I must have something wrong inside me. Kind off topic but I've had a siezure before and some epileptics electromagnetic field messes up semsitive electronics. After my workhorse 2 year old g1 I've had about 16 phones since then. 6 vibrants, 4 mytouch4g and warrantying my 5th and soon to be 6th sns. Granted not all problems have been pure hardware but these bleeding edge phones seem to be either fragile or sensitive.
That said, I love the nexus s. I loved humingbird in my vibrant and the awesome codecs but rfs and touchwiz and lag fixes drove me nuts. The nexus s on paper is amazing. Once you skin the outside or put a case, the scratch issue is pretty null and its such a clean beautiful phone. Cheap feeling? My ass. And it doesn't look anything like an iphone. The speed and battery life of hummingbird is amazing. Once google polishes gingerbread, especially gpu drivers or apps that jive better with it, I think people will regret passing it over. I've never had any slowdowns with it and dungeon defenders with no hacks or oc runs flawless.
Tegra 2 might turn out amazing but after tegra one was such a non starter (did it even make it into a phone?) And the gpu (nvidias pc meat and potatoes) not being as strong as an 8+ mo hummingbird, it seems to be a very short lived "king" if it amounts to that. I might end up very wrong but we will have to see what they bring when they finally go retail. The fact that the atrix needs a 1900mah battery scares me a bit. Maybe its needed for the extra ram and motoblur stuff, or extra resolution, but does anyone else not think it will get better battery life than the iphone4 or even the sns?
Sent from my HTC Dream using XDA App
If you're that desperate for a Tegra branded chip, hang onto your Nexus S until next Christmas and go for a quad core Tegra 3...
Jayrod1980 said:
Right on anderoid! Love hummingbird but I think I must have something wrong inside me. Kind off topic but I've had a siezure before and some epileptics electromagnetic field messes up semsitive electronics. After my workhorse 2 year old g1 I've had about 16 phones since then. 6 vibrants, 4 mytouch4g and warrantying my 5th and soon to be 6th sns. Granted not all problems have been pure hardware but these bleeding edge phones seem to be either fragile or sensitive.
That said, I love the nexus s. I loved humingbird in my vibrant and the awesome codecs but rfs and touchwiz and lag fixes drove me nuts. The nexus s on paper is amazing. Once you skin the outside or put a case, the scratch issue is pretty null and its such a clean beautiful phone. Cheap feeling? My ass. And it doesn't look anything like an iphone. The speed and battery life of hummingbird is amazing. Once google polishes gingerbread, especially gpu drivers or apps that jive better with it, I think people will regret passing it over. I've never had any slowdowns with it and dungeon defenders with no hacks or oc runs flawless.
Tegra 2 might turn out amazing but after tegra one was such a non starter (did it even make it into a phone?) And the gpu (nvidias pc meat and potatoes) not being as strong as an 8+ mo hummingbird, it seems to be a very short lived "king" if it amounts to that. I might end up very wrong but we will have to see what they bring when they finally go retail. The fact that the atrix needs a 1900mah battery scares me a bit. Maybe its needed for the extra ram and motoblur stuff, or extra resolution, but does anyone else not think it will get better battery life than the iphone4 or even the sns?
Sent from my HTC Dream using XDA App
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THANK YOU, WELL SAID...I was explaining this to someone the other day and it just wasnt making sense to them for som reason
Well you have the right spirit but little miss informed. What you fail to see is it has dual die so 2 proc thread can run each at 1ghz compared to 1 die 1ghz. I love how Samsung folks always has to bring the GPU in it whats your point? SGX540 is slightly by very small margin wins against Adreno 205. So does that mean NS can hold its ground with MT4G it has better GPU following your argument? No why due to higher memory that is allocated at faster speed.
But I myself would be waiting for Qualcomm to deploy dualcore for me thats when its serious business. Far as Samsung device goes it is already obsolete this is not rant of any from if you want to be head in the Tech world then you better have money for the changes which you will be required every 4-6months.
Jayrod1980 said:
Right on anderoid! Love hummingbird but I think I must have something wrong inside me. Kind off topic but I've had a siezure before and some epileptics electromagnetic field messes up semsitive electronics. After my workhorse 2 year old g1 I've had about 16 phones since then. 6 vibrants, 4 mytouch4g and warrantying my 5th and soon to be 6th sns. Granted not all problems have been pure hardware but these bleeding edge phones seem to be either fragile or sensitive.
That said, I love the nexus s. I loved humingbird in my vibrant and the awesome codecs but rfs and touchwiz and lag fixes drove me nuts. The nexus s on paper is amazing. Once you skin the outside or put a case, the scratch issue is pretty null and its such a clean beautiful phone. Cheap feeling? My ass. And it doesn't look anything like an iphone. The speed and battery life of hummingbird is amazing. Once google polishes gingerbread, especially gpu drivers or apps that jive better with it, I think people will regret passing it over. I've never had any slowdowns with it and dungeon defenders with no hacks or oc runs flawless.
Tegra 2 might turn out amazing but after tegra one was such a non starter (did it even make it into a phone?) And the gpu (nvidias pc meat and potatoes) not being as strong as an 8+ mo hummingbird, it seems to be a very short lived "king" if it amounts to that. I might end up very wrong but we will have to see what they bring when they finally go retail. The fact that the atrix needs a 1900mah battery scares me a bit. Maybe its needed for the extra ram and motoblur stuff, or extra resolution, but does anyone else not think it will get better battery life than the iphone4 or even the sns?
Sent from my HTC Dream using XDA App
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Don't get me wrong, I love my Nexus S. Having had an Epic and an Evo I can easily say this is the most powerful phone I've ever owned; a fact that the people in the epic IRC like to try and dispute as we've established a stable 1.5GHz OC and they've never gone over 1.2GHz.
I love the graphics power it possesses and I definitely love that my friends with iPhones get jealous of how gorgeous the screen is and how blazingly fast the phone runs, even bone stock. However, I do have a few qualms:
I remember when the Nexus one came out. I still had a dumbphone but I had started looking at phones to get and then I found the Nexus One. It was by and large the most powerful phone on the market, nothing else even came close. Being on T-Mobile had given me access to the HTC Dream (G1) and the HTC Magic (MyTouch 3G) and neither of those phones were even close to what the Nexus One could do. Sadly, I was on a family plan and I couldn't afford to buy it off contract so I settled for a MT3G.
The memory of it faded and I had a chance to get off of my Family Plan on T-Mobile and join my wife on Sprint (who were going to be getting the Epic 4G) so I did it. Of course, it was a massive upgrade from my MT3G but I never particularly liked it. Eventually, I traded my Epic for an Evo and it was great. Not as fast or as powerful but I still quite enjoyed it. Then again, I had a chance to leave Sprint (I'd been very unhappy with them from the start) so I went back to T-Mobile and having read a little about the Nexus S I decided to buy one for both myself and my wife.
Again, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it and so does my wife, but really when it comes down to brass tacks the Nexus S is pretty much a Vibrant without TouchWiz and with a NFC chip and a LED flash. The 'WOW' factor I had with the original Nexus just isn't there.
Is there anything wrong with the Hummingbird chip? Absolutely not. Its the most powerful processor in any phone on the market in the US without a doubt. But the Nexus line, to me, should be the pinnacle of Android performance. It should be the shining example of what the platform can do and where its going (like the Nexus One did with the Snapdragon and its eventual acceptance into most high-performance phones) and not feel like a re-badged five month old phone even if that phone is one of the best on the market. Had Samsung held off a little bit and made the Nexus S a dual-core phone I think it would easily usurp the Motorola Atrix from its lofty throne but as it stands it feels (and seems to be selling) like an afterthought.
Now, I'm still on the fence about these Tegra2 phones. Of course the gadget-whore in me wants to run out and buy one but the sensible part of me wants to see how they run and see how badly they eat battery life (as I'm sure no one can dispute they will). Will I eventually get one? Its more than likely, but I can't say when as I'm pretty happy with the Nexus S and I really like that updates are pushed out from Google and not a carrier or a manufacturer focused on selling more new handsets and less on supporting the ones they've already sold. Only time will tell.
That's just my two cents though.
I typically buy every new phone that comes out to try them and see if I liked it more them my blackberry bold 9700.. I would always end up selling them on ebay bc I didn't find much to love about them (i.e.- g2, vibrant, mt3g, g1 etc), after buying the nexus s, I was hooked. I had a nexus 1 for about two months and then sold that. It cracks me up to hear all the people already downing this nexus s. this phone is solid. I won't be switching to another phone unless it is pure google, no sense or touch whiz, and accompanies higher data speeds. A dual core would be nice , but until that happens, my nexus s is what I'm sticking with!
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
The simple fact is Tegra 2 and the Hummingbird wont stand a chance against Qualcomms dual core processors. Android at this point in time is more optimised for Qualcomm and being an owner of the Desire HD and Nexus S i can tell you the desire HD is much smoother even with its HTC Sense bloatware. But i can't stand waiting for updates so i gave it to my sister. But my advice would be don't get any Tegra 2 devices and just wait for the big guns (qualcomm)!
nice GPU is nice, but GPU is mostly for games......for kids....you kids wanna play some games, get yourself an xbox or some ****....
bratfink said:
The simple fact is Tegra 2 and the Hummingbird wont stand a chance against Qualcomms dual core processors. Android at this point in time is more optimised for Qualcomm and being an owner of the Desire HD and Nexus S i can tell you the desire HD is much smoother even with its HTC Sense bloatware. But i can't stand waiting for updates so i gave it to my sister. But my advice would be don't get any Tegra 2 devices and just wait for the big guns (qualcomm)!
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Agreed, as when Qualcomm drops it thats when you know its serious business. Terga2 for the time being will hold the crown and make no mistake Hummingbird does not stand a chance against it.
Orion is going to be the fastest duel core chipset in 2011. The cpu can clock close to 2 ghz per core. Will have the same features that Qualcomms have that allow high linpack benchmarks (but not real world improvements). The hummingbird has always been the faster cpu atthe same mhz then Qualcomms cpus. Orion chipset is using a quad core gpu that performs better then xbox 360 gpu. I can not find any duel core that out performs these specs.
LOL?
shep211 said:
Orion is going to be the fastest duel core chipset in 2011. The cpu can clock close to 2 ghz per core. Will have the same features that Qualcomms have that allow high linpack benchmarks (but not real world improvements). The hummingbird has always been the faster cpu atthe same mhz then Qualcomms cpus. Orion chipset is using a quad core gpu that performs better then xbox 360 gpu. I can not find any duel core that out performs these specs.
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Wait? The hummingbird has always been faster cpu at the same Mz then a Qualcomm? Lets think about where your getting that idea..
The Hummingbird deffinitly outperforms the Nexus 1, Htc Desire etc etc which btw are all 1st gen yet i agree have the same 1Ghz clock speed. But still in cpu extensive tasks the 1st gen qualcomms are still not that far behind. Looking at the 2nd gen qualcomms however such as the HTC Desire HD we see the cpu out performing the Hummingbird and only been let down my an extremely marginal difference in the GPU performance. So forget about spec sheets and look at real world usage. Grab yourself a HTC Desire HD with a gingerbread rom (what i had) and a Nexus S and see for your self which wins. Im sorry but Samsung are ****, Google is the only good thing about the Nexus S, but thats good enough for me.
shep211 said:
Orion is going to be the fastest duel core chipset in 2011. The cpu can clock close to 2 ghz per core. Will have the same features that Qualcomms have that allow high linpack benchmarks (but not real world improvements). The hummingbird has always been the faster cpu atthe same mhz then Qualcomms cpus. Orion chipset is using a quad core gpu that performs better then xbox 360 gpu. I can not find any duel core that out performs these specs.
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honestly i always thought that the first gen snapdragon, such as the nexus one, outperformed the current hummingbird CPU in a lot of certain types of computational tasks/tests. cpu vs cpu, its very close, the hummingbird doesnt have that much of an advantage. it does have a much better GPU, which is where it shines.
so i'd imagine if the first gen snapdragon is nearly matching current hummingbird, then imagine what second gen snapdragon dual core, smaller die, will do. (i understand hummingbird dual will also come out, but just saying it will still be close).
RogerPodacter said:
honestly i always thought that the first gen snapdragon, such as the nexus one, outperformed the current hummingbird CPU in a lot of certain types of computational tasks/tests. cpu vs cpu, its very close, the hummingbird doesnt have that much of an advantage. it does have a much better GPU, which is where it shines.
so i'd imagine if the first gen snapdragon is nearly matching current hummingbird, then imagine what second gen snapdragon dual core, smaller die, will do. (i understand hummingbird dual will also come out, but just saying it will still be close).
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The second-gen snapdragon is the processor in the G2 and the Evo Shift 4G, isn't it?
shep211 said:
Orion is going to be the fastest duel core chipset in 2011. The cpu can clock close to 2 ghz per core. Will have the same features that Qualcomms have that allow high linpack benchmarks (but not real world improvements). The hummingbird has always been the faster cpu atthe same mhz then Qualcomms cpus. Orion chipset is using a quad core gpu that performs better then xbox 360 gpu. I can not find any duel core that out performs these specs.
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Actually, to expand upon this, the Orion will have a Cortex A9 which actually has "the same features that Qualcomms have that allow high linpack benchmarks," along with more features not found in the Snapdragon.
To be more specific, the Snapdragon has elements of speculative execution with branch prediction, which is most important area in which it differs from the Cortex A8 reference design. This causes its floating point performance (very important in 3D calculations) to be very high. Unfortunately for Qualcomm, though, even the Adreno 205 falls short in terms of performance. Thus, even though the Scorpion CPU core in the Snapdragon is better at 3D than the Hummingbird's Cortex A8, the Snapdragon's GPU is so castrated that it's much slower in games overall. As a side note, the Cortex A8 in the Hummingbird actually has 2 times the L2 cache compared to the reference A8 design.
The Cortex A9 in the Tegra 2, on the other hand, supports full out of order execution (in addition to speculative execution and branch prediction found in the Snapdragon's Scorpion CPU core). This yields roughly 25% higher IPC compared to the Cortex A8, which is why the CPU section of Tegra 2 benchmarks seem to be roughly that much faster than our Hummingbird. Benchmarks have been mixed for its GPU, as I pointed out here, though that could have been due to a higher screen resolution or immature drivers.
Bottom line is that while the CPU will be ~25% better per clock cycle than our Cortex A8 (when only using one core), its GPU is roughly on the same level--sometimes performing better, sometimes worse. Another thing to remember is that since the Hummingbird uses a PowerVR architecture, it is tile-based deferred rendering. This basically means that fillrate and memory bandwidth are much less of an issue than they are in traditional rendering methods.
What will differentiate Tegra 2 though (in my humble opinion) is software tailored for its strengths, which is what Tegra Zone will likely bring. Sure the Hummingbird's fast, and perhaps even better for GPU rendering, but the code optimized for the Tegra 2's GPU may perform better on a Tegra 2 than on our possibly-faster SGX 540.
Relax, just wait until all that Tegra 2 phones released.
Certainly there will be some reviews, comparisons, benchmarks, etc.
In the mean time, enjoy your Nexus S. It is fast enough for current apps that are available You don't need dual core to run Angry Birds
Then we can wait the next Nexus 3 !
kolyan said:
nice GPU is nice, but GPU is mostly for games......for kids....you kids wanna play some games, get yourself an xbox or some ****....
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Err what? GPU relates to the smoothness in transitions of the home screen, the smoothness of the browser, the smoothness of everything. It's not just about games good sir. Compare screen swiping with a live wallpaper on G2 vs Galaxy S on stock Launcher2 and prepare to see why GPU matters.
Or use a phone that doesn't even have a GPU. Like a Wildfire. Then throw it out the window.
Going further, you can't count Quadrant 3d scores on the Nexus S because it doesn't render properly due to Gingerbread incompatibility.
The other reason the Optimus 2x scores higher is the i/o part. If we do the same ext4 lagfix that is probably built into the 2x we get the same i/o as it, and about the same Quadrant, maybe a little lower due to the GPU not running properly ever on Quadrant with Gingerbread.
As for CPU, yes the Tegra2 will be better. It's an A9. However the differences will be subtle at best until the end of 2011 when things are optimized for the Tegra2, which by then both the Qualcomm and Orion god processors will be out.
As far as processing power between the Hummingbird and Snapdragon, it definitely is more powerful than the Nexus One's processor, and GPU knocks it off it's feet.
As for the 2nd gen Snapdragon vs Hummingbird, they're probably about equal processors. The GPU gives the Hummingbird the edge and you will notice it if you take a Live wallpaper and compare Launcher2.apk screen swipes on a G2 vs Nexus S. It is very nudgy on the G2, but smooth on Nexus S.
What causes the Snap Dragon to score so high in Linpack for instance is the FPU aka float processing unit which isn't really worth caring about when it comes to every day tasks.
But yes, the Tegra2 will definitely be a bit more powerful than the Hummingbird. But it won't be tons tons tons rapejob over 9000. This is why Google released the Nexus S with the Hummingbird without second thought.
kenvan19 said:
The second-gen snapdragon is the processor in the G2 and the Evo Shift 4G, isn't it?
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well yes, i was referring to the original snapdragon in the nexus one. i think the snapdragon in the G2 and evo shift is just the same snapdragon CPU with an improved GPU. so there's kinda 2 separate topics, CPU vs CPU, and then the GPU vs GPU. i believe the hummingbird and snapdragon CPU vs CPU is rather close, sometimes the snapdragon beats it, sometimes the hummingbird does. then add in the GPU, i believe the hummingbird GPU is better than the new snapddragon adreno. not sure by how much though.
but an example of why it's important for the GPU to actually be taken advantage of in code, the nexus s web browser doesnt seem to be using the GPU properly, so relying soley on CPU vs CPU, we see the nexus one perform BETTER on some types of web pages as the snapdragon seems to be either coded properly, or it is just better for those certain types of tasks. basically my opinion is snapdragon is a better CPU, but the hummingbird has the better GPU.
Edited... I was ranting very off topic
The Nexus S really looks great, but I have doubts if I should really buy it when it's available in Germany/Austria or Switzerland...
The point is I start studying software development in the autumn 2011 and can't afford a new phone each year and would use the phone for about 2 years.
So my question is:
Will I have fun with this phone (as a developer) for the following 2 years or should I buy a more powerful phone?
Note: Currently I have a Nokia 5800 and I definitely want a new one because the bugs are annoying even with ported C6-Firmware it is not really satisfying...
thanks you very much!
I've been doing quite a bit of research on GPU's and CPU's in phone's/tablets lately. And I have a few unanswered questions that I can't seem to find an answer for.
1: What's the best chipset available for mobile phones and tablets right now? This link cleared quite a bit up for me, it does a fairly indepth comparison for both GPU and CPU performance between the Qualcomm S4, Tegra 3, OMAP 4470, and the Exynos 4212. And I dont want the 'Well this is better because it has more jiggahertz". Shut up, that's not what I need. I need something more indepth. If studies on individual GPU comparison can be provided, please drop a link. I'd like to know these things very well.
2: What individual GPU is currently the best? I realize the Ipad3 came out with with a graphics chip that's supposedly superior to the Xbox/PS3's. However I take anything Apple says with a grain of salt, they're notorious for shooting flaming BS out of their rear. However based on the little bit of searching I've done, the Adreno GPU's seem to be ahead of their time. I previously thought the Mali 400 GPU in the Exynos chipset was one of the best, but apparently it's outdated. Again, links to tests/studies/comparisons would be appreciated.
3: What's the deal with the ARM chips? Are the A5's, A6's, A11's, (and whatever other A chips out there are), some standard CPU developed by ARM and licensed out to all manufacturers to use in their chipsets?
4: What alternatives are there to the ARM CPU's? Most chipsets I research seem to be using a Cortex A9 chip.
5: What's the difference between the A5, A6, A9, etc. From what I've seen the higher numbers are the newer models, but I feel like that's a very shallow definition. If that is true, why does the newest iPad only use an A5x chip for it's quad core rather than an A9 or something of the sort.
6: Is the chipset in the iPad really the fastest out there? Personally, I can't really stand apple products; let alone the rabid fanboys and the obnoxious advertisements they put out. I can recognize that they very often gloat about their products and overexaggerate; like how they said the dual core in the iPhone 4s is the fastest out there, yet from what I've read the A5 is the worst performing dual core out there. Is the GPU in the tablet really superior to the Xbox? And is the processor really able to outdo the Tegra 3?
If you're able to answer any one of these, even exclusively, that would be appreciated. I just like knowledge
MultiLockOn said:
I've been doing quite a bit of research on GPU's and CPU's in phone's/tablets lately. And I have a few unanswered questions that I can't seem to find an answer for.
1: What's the best chipset available for mobile phones and tablets right now? This link cleared quite a bit up for me, it does a fairly indepth comparison for both GPU and CPU performance between the Qualcomm S4, Tegra 3, OMAP 4470, and the Exynos 4212. And I dont want the 'Well this is better because it has more jiggahertz". Shut up, that's not what I need. I need something more indepth. If studies on individual GPU comparison can be provided, please drop a link. I'd like to know these things very well.
2: What individual GPU is currently the best? I realize the Ipad3 came out with with a graphics chip that's supposedly superior to the Xbox/PS3's. However I take anything Apple says with a grain of salt, they're notorious for shooting flaming BS out of their rear. However based on the little bit of searching I've done, the Adreno GPU's seem to be ahead of their time. I previously thought the Mali 400 GPU in the Exynos chipset was one of the best, but apparently it's outdated. Again, links to tests/studies/comparisons would be appreciated.
3: What's the deal with the ARM chips? Are the A5's, A6's, A11's, (and whatever other A chips out there are), some standard CPU developed by ARM and licensed out to all manufacturers to use in their chipsets?
4: What alternatives are there to the ARM CPU's? Most chipsets I research seem to be using a Cortex A9 chip.
5: What's the difference between the A5, A6, A9, etc. From what I've seen the higher numbers are the newer models, but I feel like that's a very shallow definition. If that is true, why does the newest iPad only use an A5x chip for it's quad core rather than an A9 or something of the sort.
6: Is the chipset in the iPad really the fastest out there? Personally, I can't really stand apple products; let alone the rabid fanboys and the obnoxious advertisements they put out. I can recognize that they very often gloat about their products and overexaggerate; like how they said the dual core in the iPhone 4s is the fastest out there, yet from what I've read the A5 is the worst performing dual core out there. Is the GPU in the tablet really superior to the Xbox? And is the processor really able to outdo the Tegra 3?
If you're able to answer any one of these, even exclusively, that would be appreciated. I just like knowledge
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1. Dunno right now, it's always changing. I hear the new Qualcomm processors with the new Andreno gpu are supposed to be the ****, but it's not out yet so who knows. The iPad 3 currently has not had any real world tests done yet, we need to wait for release. It is basically the same A5 chip as the iPad 2 but with the PSVita's gpu thrown in.
2. *sigh* The iPad 3 is not more powerful than an Xbox 360. It is better in I believe one aspect (more memory), but this has very little impact on performance/graphics quality. This is Apple shooting wads of **** out it's arse, or whoever made the claim. It's actually using the same GPU found in the PSVita, which we all know is not as powerful as a PS3/Xbox360. However, the PSVita is also using a quad core cpu, whereas the iPad 3 is using the same dual core A5 as the iPad 2, so technically the PSVita is superior. You also have to consider how many more pixels the gpu has to power on the iPad 3's display. While high res is nice, it takes more power to render it.
3. ARM creates a base chip for companies to slap their own GPU's and name on. The naming structure is pretty self explanatory.
4. All CPU's currently in tablets/cellphones are a variant of the ARM. A Cortex A9 is still an ARM chip. This will soon change when Intel releases their tablet/phone chips.
5. You're right, higher numbers do mean newer modeling. I don't know all the exacts, but with the newer ARM series you get higher and/or more efficient clocks, generally some battery savings, and in some series support for more cores. Apple's labeling of their chips has nothing to do with ARM's, it's their own naming scheme. The A5x is just what Apple calls their version of the ARM processor.
6. I believe atm the iPad 3 has the fastest chipset in a tablet..for now. It won't take long for it to be overtaken by other companies, there's so much in the works right now.
speedyink said:
1. Dunno right now, it's always changing. I hear the new Qualcomm processors with the new Andreno gpu are supposed to be the ****, but it's not out yet so who knows. The iPad 3 currently has not had any real world tests done yet, we need to wait for release. It is basically the same A5 chip as the iPad 2 but with the PSVita's gpu thrown in.
2. *sigh* The iPad 3 gpu is not more powerful than an Xbox 360. It is better in I believe one aspect (more memory), but this has very little impact on performance/graphics quality. This is Apple shooting wads of **** out it's arse, or whoever made the claim. It's actually using the same GPU found in the PSVita, which we all know is not as powerful as a PS3/Xbox360. However, the PSVita is also using a quad core cpu, whereas the iPad 3 is using the same dual core A5 as the iPad 2, so technically the PSVita is superior.
3. ARM creates a base chip for companies to slap their own GPU's and name on. The naming structure is pretty self explanatory.
4. All CPU's currently in tablets/cellphones are a variant of the ARM. A Cortex A9 is still an ARM chip. This will soon change when Intel releases their tablet/phone chips.
5. You're right, higher numbers do mean newer modeling. I don't know all the exacts, but with the newer ARM series you get higher and/or more efficient clocks, generally some battery savings, and in some series support for more cores. Apple's labeling of their chips has nothing to do with ARM's, it's their own naming scheme. The A5x is just what Apple calls their version of the ARM processor.
6. I believe atm the iPad 3 has the fastest chipset in a tablet..for now. It won't take long for it to be overtaken by other companies, there's so much in the works right now.
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Thanks for the reply. It seems weird to me that Apple would rename a CPU to something as similar to one that would already exist, A5x as to A5.
MultiLockOn said:
Thanks for the reply. It seems weird to me that Apple would rename a CPU to something as similar to one that would already exist, A5x as to A5.
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Because Apple is the type of company to step on someones feet like that, and then sue them later on for copyright infringement. Damn the confusion, Apple starts with A, so will their processors.
speedyink said:
Because Apple is the type of company to step on someones feet like that, and then sue them later on for copyright infringement. Damn the confusion, Apple starts with A, so will their processors.
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yeah, apple just simply buy a technology and re-label them, make patent and troll others. so for comparison, apple doesn't count. Also these handheld chipset can't be compared with consoles, consoles have more proccessing power like more RAM bandwidth and polygons.
Anyway.. based on my experience, mali400 exynos has a butterly smooth performance for both UI and 3D graphics. I've tried both Gingerbread GNote and my SGS2.
on the other hand, Google did a great job with TI OMAP for it's Galaxy Nexus, pure HW accelerated 4.0.3.. with very little glitch, but I believe it's software issue.
IMO if you wanna buy a fast and smooth device, follow the current Nexus spec (at least similar) like GNexus, Motorola RAZR, etc. I've seen Tegra 3 4+1 Transformer Prime but never hands-on it. as far as i seen, UI and 3D performance are stunning. 1 extra core advantage is for low power mode when doing light proccessing and standby mode. Today hardwares are fast enough, drivers and OS optimisation are very important thing if you want everything run smoothly.
cmiiw, sorry for bad english
lesp4ul said:
yeah, apple just simply buy a technology and re-label them, make patent and troll others. so for comparison, apple doesn't count. Also these handheld chipset can't be compared with consoles, consoles have more proccessing power like more RAM bandwidth and polygons.
Anyway.. based on my experience, mali400 exynos has a butterly smooth performance for both UI and 3D graphics. I've tried both Gingerbread GNote and my SGS2.
on the other hand, Google did a great job with TI OMAP for it's Galaxy Nexus, pure HW accelerated 4.0.3.. with very little glitch, but I believe it's software issue.
IMO if you wanna buy a fast and smooth device, follow the current Nexus spec (at least similar) like GNexus, Motorola RAZR, etc. I've seen Tegra 3 4+1 Transformer Prime but never hands-on it. as far as i seen, UI and 3D performance are stunning. 1 extra core advantage is for low power mode when doing light proccessing and standby mode. Today hardwares are fast enough, drivers and OS optimisation are very important thing if you want everything run smoothly.
cmiiw, sorry for bad english
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I kmow what you mean. Im extremely happy with my galaxy s2, I cant say I ever recall it lagging on me in any way whatsoever. Im not sure what makes the droid razr and galaxy nexus comparable to the s2. From what Ive read Omap processors tend to lag and consume battery, and the mali 400 is better than what either of those phones have. Id say its ICS but the razr still
Runs gingerbread
I was hoping for some more attention in here :/
I agree, omaps are battery hungry beast. Like my previous Optimus Black, man... i only got 12-14 hours with edge (1ghz UV smartass v2, also ****ty LG kernel haha). Same issue as my friend's Galaxy SL. I dunno if newer soc has a better behaviour.
Sent from my Nokia 6510 using PaperPlane™
It seems that there are a few carriers out there still having a hard time working with the advancements of Quad-Core devices and though the processors being used (Tegra 3 chips) aren't what we're use too (Snapdragons) there are a few carriers worried about whether or not they will be able to write software right away either.
HTC One X phone gets quad-core CPU -- except in U.S.
Progress doesn't come without a price and in the case of the new HTC One X smartphone, the price of running on AT&T's 4G LTE network in the U.S. will be a downgrade from a quad-core processor to a dual-core CPU.
The HTC One X will sit at the top of a new line of One smartphones, which the Taiwanese electronics maker showed off for the first time at the Mobile World Congress event in Barcelona.
The One X will sport a huge 4.7-inch touchscreen with 1,280 x 720 pixel resolution, 32 gigabytes of built-in storage, 1 gigabyte of RAM and an 8-megapixel/1080p rear camera. It'll also run Google's Android Ice Cream Sandwich operating system, topped with HTC's Sense user interface.
And when it begins to arrive at retailers in April, the One X will be part of a growing trend in Android handsets that feature quad-core processors, except for the U.S. variation, which will be called the One XL in Asia and Australia.
The U.S. version, which will be sold by AT&T, will ship with a 1.5-gigahertz, dual-core Qualcomm Snapdragon processor rather than the quad-core Nvidia Tegra 3 processor. Dual-core is still plenty fast, but the difference is a bit disappointing as there are no quad-core phones sold here yet.
The reason for the CPU switcheroo is that Nvidia's processor lacked compatibility with AT&T's 4G LTE hardware when the One X was being developed. As first reported by CNet, phones with quad-core Tegra 3 chips and AT&T 4G LTE capability will arrive eventually, but the timing was off for the One X.
Another major feature for the One X and One XL will be the inclusion of Beats Audio, which HTC says will offer a better listening experience for music, videos and games. After all, what's the point of a $300-million deal with Beats By Dr. Dre if Beats Audio technology doesn't make it into your flagship phone?
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Story found here for more information and further links:http://www.latimes.com/business/tec...hanks-to-att-4g-lte-20120227,0,6217626.story
Personally my concern is that T-Mobile is picking up the One as well and even though T-Mo doesn't support LTE service this can still put us T-Mo customers at a disadvantage if the devices come to us as Dual-Cores. I've had my MT4G for a while now and though I got it for cheap money it's getting old as any phones life depletes in our community fairly fast considering the amount of flashing we all do, but with this being an option for the carriers including our own this might effect the cost between the Quad and Dual versions.
Well lets see where this puts us in a month or so but for now it looks like I'm buying a new extended-life battery online somewhere till the dust settles.
Example of what it should be.... But with a SD card slot....
HTC One X is an exquisite device that boasts the best of what current mobile technology has to offer, housing an NVIDIA quad-core Tegra 3 processor and featuring Android 4.0 with the HTC’s Sense 4.0 UI.
Other features of the HTC One X include:
Dimensions: 134.4 x 69.9 x 8.9 mm, 130 grams
Micro SIM
4.7″ HD LCD screen, with gorilla glass protection
1280×720 resolution
1.5 Ghz quad-core NVIDIA Tegra 3 processor
1 GB RAM
32 GB built-in memory, no microSD slot
8MP rear camera with ImageSense, 1.3MP front camera
WiFi 802.11 b/g/n
NFC support
1800 mAH battery
Beats Audio integration
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Interesting find I too wonder how all of this will turn out. I'd rather get it unlocked with quad. But I'm 14 and don't have that money haha.
Sent from my Sense 4.0 Glacier using XDA Premium.
invasion2 said:
Interesting find I too wonder how all of this will turn out. I'd rather get it unlocked with quad. But I'm 14 and don't have that money haha.
Sent from my Sense 4.0 Glacier using XDA Premium.
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Well the concern is that all of these devices were to come solely as Quad Cores and there was a specific price point for it because of that, carriers in the US are known for changing the price point because they can get customers to pay the original price of the Quad Cores for the Dual Cores.
This pushes the price of the Quads up a little hitting our pockets and they realize our community will go after the better of the two, I think HTC should have just forced the carriers hand to work on the quad cores instead of giving them the option of downgrading the hardware.
Well T-Mobile is moving to LTE...invasion, I feel you pain bro, I wish I had enough money to buy an unlocked quad core but I would rather go to college lol. Anyway, I heard the quad core isn't better than the snapdragons
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA
invasion2 said:
Interesting find I too wonder how all of this will turn out. I'd rather get it unlocked with quad. But I'm 14 and don't have that money haha.
Sent from my Sense 4.0 Glacier using XDA Premium.
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You're 14?
And I'm in college and don't plan on spending that type of money on a phone ever, I'd much rather buy a tablet, which I will soon be doing. Going for the new Asus tabs as soon as they come out.
Orical said:
It seems that there are a few carriers out there still having a hard time working with the advancements of Quad-Core devices and though the processors being used (Tegra 3 chips) aren't what we're use too (Snapdragons) there are a few carriers worried about whether or not they will be able to write software right away either.
Story found here for more information and further links:http://www.latimes.com/business/tec...hanks-to-att-4g-lte-20120227,0,6217626.story
Personally my concern is that T-Mobile is picking up the One as well and even though T-Mo doesn't support LTE service this can still put us T-Mo customers at a disadvantage if the devices come to us as Dual-Cores. I've had my MT4G for a while now and though I got it for cheap money it's getting old as any phones life depletes in our community fairly fast considering the amount of flashing we all do, but with this being an option for the carriers including our own this might effect the cost between the Quad and Dual versions.
Well lets see where this puts us in a month or so but for now it looks like I'm buying a new extended-life battery online somewhere till the dust settles.
Example of what it should be.... But with a SD card slot....
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Don't be fooled by the number of cores a phones has. The AT&T One X has a next gen S4 Dual-core cpu which is based off the ARM A15 core unlike the Tegra 3 which based on ARM A9 cores. The Qualcomm S4 Dual-core are as fast and in some cases faster then Tegra 3 4+1 cpu's due to the newer chip design. Its not a downgrade by any means.
T-mobile is getting the One S. That particular phone has always been specked with the S4 Dual-core cpu and will be HSPA+ 42 capable.
How many times will I have to write it... It just means that your average journalist is no less stupid than your average customer, and can't do a basic research. It might be forgivable for customers, some of which are just 14-year-old kids with no understanding of anything, but it's less forgivable for journalists who should at least pretend having a brain.
Here's a comparison between dual-core S4 and quad-core T3 by Anandtech:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5563/qualcomms-snapdragon-s4-krait-vs-nvidias-tegra-3
Looks like Tegra3 will have a hard time even trying to keep up.
And the funniest thing is that One S, if HTC won't cripple it intentionally, will be way more powerful than One X - because it will have both the CPU speed advantage and, with lower resolution, GPU advantage.
Plus, it's VERY old news already.
Jack_R1 said:
How many times will I have to write it... It just means that your average journalist is no less stupid than your average customer, and can't do a basic research. It might be forgivable for customers, some of which are just 14-year-old kids with no understanding of anything, but it's less forgivable for journalists who should at least pretend having a brain.
Here's a comparison between dual-core S4 and quad-core T3 by Anandtech:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5563/qualcomms-snapdragon-s4-krait-vs-nvidias-tegra-3
Looks like Tegra3 will have a hard time even trying to keep up.
And the funniest thing is that One S, if HTC won't cripple it intentionally, will be way more powerful than One X - because it will have both the CPU speed advantage and, with lower resolution, GPU advantage.
Plus, it's VERY old news already.
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Its not worth it....
smooth3d said:
Don't be fooled by the number of cores a phones has. The AT&T One X has a next gen S4 Dual-core cpu which is based off the ARM A15 core unlike the Tegra 3 which based on ARM A9 cores. The Qualcomm S4 Dual-core are as fast and in some cases faster then Tegra 3 4+1 cpu's due to the newer chip design. Its not a downgrade by any means.
T-mobile is getting the One S. That particular phone has always been specked with the S4 Dual-core cpu and will be HSPA+ 42 capable.
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My intention of posting this is to show how the market is effected over a network of carriers and manufacturers when product is effected by the investment through marketing and demand, as it's stated in the main post the chips were not going to work with the software planed for them so in turn they changed the device to run a better core (though half of what was originally advertised) to prevent having to re-write the framework.
If the case were specific to the fact that the Tegra chips were going to be the problem then why not pony up for the quad core snapdragons and boost the price for the device as they always have in the past, it's not like they're worried about what their going to charge the consumer as that's never been the case. Personally I would have just waited for a contract deal and weighed my options when it was time, I'm not one to just run out and buy something just because the "Advertised public hype" says it's the best thing since sliced bread I wait to see what happens after the lust settles to get the facts.
Quad-core Snapdragons were not on the market yet (and you can see that there are no devices with those scheduled to arrive at the time of release for One X/S), thus they couldn't be utilized, making your point void. AFAIK, Qualcomm's competitor to T3 is dual-core S4, and this is what the device manufacturers will be choosing from, until the quad-core phone-oriented S4 will arrive. The current 8064 is not suggested for LTE phone configuration - read this article, it'll help to understand, why:
http://gigaom.com/mobile/qualcomm-no-quad-core-phones-at-mwc-but-well-have-something-better/
The carriers had their choice, and chose what they thought would suit them the best, considering the time-to-market, the potential performance/battery life differences etc. That some journalist thinks their choice was wrong - doesn't necessarily mean that it is.
Jack_R1 said:
Quad-core Snapdragons were not on the market yet (and you can see that there are no devices with those scheduled to arrive at the time of release for One X/S), thus they couldn't be utilized, making your point void. AFAIK, Qualcomm's competitor to T3 is dual-core S4, and this is what the device manufacturers will be choosing from, until the quad-core phone-oriented S4 will arrive. The current 8064 is not suggested for LTE phone configuration - read this article, it'll help to understand, why:
http://gigaom.com/mobile/qualcomm-no-quad-core-phones-at-mwc-but-well-have-something-better/
The carriers had their choice, and chose what they thought would suit them the best, considering the time-to-market, the potential performance/battery life differences etc. That some journalist thinks their choice was wrong - doesn't necessarily mean that it is.
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Obviously there's a miss communication on how marketing works here, even though they may not have had the option previously doesn't mean they don't have it now. Point is valid. Now that I think of it the Snapdragons have been around for the minimum of a year and the Tegra have been used for twice that and if you read the what you posted it doesn't say the tegra cant do it but it states that it would do it poorly draining battery. I agree with you on that but your missing my point entirely which is with the options they have their going to use other reasons to charge the consumer for over looked issues they can and have the ability to change now.
And another thing though it seems to be old news too you others still have yet to see it, this is why people don't post anything they read anymore because some people have no problem trying to shoot down anything posted before a discussion actually produces anything constructive.
Either I don't understand what you're talking about, or you don't understand how the market works - and I'm leaning for the 2nd option. For marketing to have something to show off and plan on, you have to have the actual HW (phone, that is) in the final readiness stage, which means that the HW has been developed for at least 1/2 year ahead of that time. 1 year from CPU manufacturing to phone sales is very good, 9 months is INCREDIBLY OUTSTANDING. Having the CPU ready at point X in time doesn't mean it can be used at that point - it means it can be used at the very least 9 months from that point. There are NO other phones and NOTHING to choose from 9 months ago - but the 2 choices you see now. The only other choice would be to skip international phone launch and wait until either T3+LTE modem combo of some kind is made functional (which could be already done, but we're talking 9 months time ahead, yes?), or to wait until Qualcomm prepares its quad-core for phones (which could also be already done, but again, 9 months ago it wasn't). So, let's see, what would you choose - participate in worldwide launch and use an equally powerful (if not even more powerful) version of the phone sporting LTE support to boot, which nobody else gets, or skip the launch. Oh well, let me think, a very hard choice, is it.
What also causes me to doubt you know what you're talking about, is the fact that Snapdragon-based phones have been around Android since Jan 2010 (Nexus One), and Tegra chipset saw first wide use only in its 2nd version, in Jan 2011 (Optimus 2X), a year later, and a couple more months till it was officially available in US. So it's actually 2 years of VERY widespread use for Snapdragon vs 1 year of spotty use (more tablets than phones - barely 2 phones or so, Atrix and Optimux 2X) for Tegra 2. Just the opposite of what you wrote.
For having smart discussions, there is a small prerequisite - both sides should know what they're talking about quite well. On this board, such a situation is rarely encountered. So sometimes it's better that people don't just run here posting everything they saw somewhere on the internet - especially if it's a 2nd-grade non-professional article in "business" section of some newspaper, and not a professional analysis article on one of the dedicated HW and Android-related sites.
Jack_R1 said:
Either I don't understand what you're talking about, or you don't understand how the market works - and I'm leaning for the 2nd option. For marketing to have something to show off and plan on, you have to have the actual HW (phone, that is) in the final readiness stage, which means that the HW has been developed for at least 1/2 year ahead of that time. 1 year from CPU manufacturing to phone sales is very good, 9 months is INCREDIBLY OUTSTANDING. Having the CPU ready at point X in time doesn't mean it can be used at that point - it means it can be used at the very least 9 months from that point. There are NO other phones and NOTHING to choose from 9 months ago - but the 2 choices you see now. The only other choice would be to skip international phone launch and wait until either T3+LTE modem combo of some kind is made functional (which could be already done, but we're talking 9 months time ahead, yes?), or to wait until Qualcomm prepares its quad-core for phones (which could also be already done, but again, 9 months ago it wasn't). So, let's see, what would you choose - participate in worldwide launch and use an equally powerful (if not even more powerful) version of the phone sporting LTE support to boot, which nobody else gets, or skip the launch. Oh well, let me think, a very hard choice, is it.
What also causes me to doubt you know what you're talking about, is the fact that Snapdragon-based phones have been around Android since Jan 2010 (Nexus One), and Tegra chipset saw first wide use only in its 2nd version, in Jan 2011 (Optimus 2X), a year later, and a couple more months till it was officially available in US. So it's actually 2 years of VERY widespread use for Snapdragon vs 1 year of spotty use (more tablets than phones - barely 2 phones or so, Atrix and Optimux 2X) for Tegra 2. Just the opposite of what you wrote.
For having smart discussions, there is a small prerequisite - both sides should know what they're talking about quite well. On this board, such a situation is rarely encountered. So sometimes it's better that people don't just run here posting everything they saw somewhere on the internet - especially if it's a 2nd-grade non-professional article in "business" section of some newspaper, and not a professional analysis article on one of the dedicated HW and Android-related sites.
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Wow how's that high perception of yourself. Im actually surprised how easy it is for you to judge a top paid news publicist. I'll just leave the rest for you to continue your rant on how well educated you are and how well business does for you.
I'm not some kid with nothing better to do than sit around and rant, I saw the post which I placed as a reason to see what people thought, it shows the type of people that come on line though.
"Top paid publicist" is paid to make news items, not objective analysis. Objective analysis mostly doesn't interest people, it doesn't play with their emotions (which is usually a prerequisite for creating interest). To make interesting news, you need to forcibly inflate just about any issue you're writing about, in such way that would steer people's emotions. This is exactly what you're seeing in the newspaper.
And yes, being a "top paid engineer" that happens to work in this industry, makes you kinda judgmental. I understand that you don't have valid arguments left. OK then.
hmm tmo updated their account app to support android 4.0
Bangincrazy said:
hmm tmo updated their account app to support android 4.0
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Lol, old news. I said this in one of the dev threads about a week ago. This means some device, whether it's the sensation about to update or the one s is about to come out on T-Mo soon, will give us official ICS on T-Mo, meaning we're going to get wifi calling for ICS finally.
After Galaxy Nexus and Razr I don´t see any company announcing that they are going to use their chips.
Thats true that OMAP 4430/4460 (1.0 / 1.5Ghz respectively) with SGX540 are behind, especially behind Qualcomm S4 and quad-core Exynos. They were also supposed to release OMAP 4470 (1.8GHz) with SGX544 but I haven't seen it used in any device.
I'm not sure here, but I think that OMAP's don't feature wireless radio technologies, so phone manufacturesrs have to add additional chips what raises the cost.
TI annonced OMAP 5 long time ago, but I don't know what is the progress. OMAP 5 is suppsoed to have dualcore A15 ("Up to 2GHz") + dualcore M4 and SGX544-MPx.
Well TI is going to release the OMAP 5 soon. One of the pros of this processor is that it is easily customizable, and thats why it's used in the Galaxy Nexus. So who knows? OMAP 5 may appear in the next series of Nexus phones.
Yeah idk, this year has been dominated by qualcomm (i hope thats right) and exynos (in the GS3 international) but that is true, Ti seems unusually absent this year.
They are making the Omap 5. 28nm tech has loads of problems,especially high spoilt counts at the factory. Qualcomm are actually switching factories cause of this. TI have stable chips at relatively lower cost. When it's ready you'll see it everywhere.
Sent from my U8150 using XDA
Texas Instruments withdraws from smartphones
Texas Instruments is dropping from the system-on-chip for smartphones and tablets manufacturing and will give up on its OMAP lineup.
The company’s OMAP boards are less and less popular among mobile manufacturers – most of them bet on Qualcomm, while Samsung and Apple are developing their own solutions (Exynos, A6). The major disadvantage of the OMAP chipset is the lack of on-board 3G/4G modem.
That forces manufacturers who rely on OMAP chipsets to use additional radio chips, which increases battery consumption and production costs. Now you understand why smartphone manufacturers prefer Qualcomm’s complete solutions, rather than this expensive process.
TI says its focus will shift on “to a broader market including industrial clients like carmakers”, though it did not announce specifics and the investors were left wondering.
Anyway, TI will continue to support its current clients, but will significantly reduce efforts on developing new OMAP chipsets.
The news might come shocking for some, as the TI OMAP 5 was expected to be the first chipset with dual Cortex-A15 CPU, and now it's fate is uncertain. Nonetheless, TI OMAP's presence was barely felt on the market, so the company's exit won't create too much of a disturbance.
http://www.gsmarena.com/texas_instruments_backtracks_from_smartphones_goodbye_omap-news-4861.php
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/25/texasinstruments-wireless-idUSL1E8KP5FN20120925?irpc=932
They had great power management on their chips. Too bad.
Sent from my U8150 using XDA
about exynos octa and future of exynos and exynos based mobile devices.
Over the past few months there have been a lot of talks going on about the system on a chip (SoC) choices that Samsung’s Mobile division has made for their recent and upcoming products; now new information has shed more light as to how these choices came to be, their reasoning, and what the repercussions for both the company and their users are.
Back in January, during the official announcement CES 2013, and as early as several weeks earlier as the internet rumour-mill and Korean analysts predicted that the Galaxy S4 would come with the company’s own Exynos Octa SoC, most people were not be aware what is going on behind the scenes at Samsung.
Samsung’s System LSI Business, a business unit of the company’s Semiconductor division, has had several SoC projects in their pipeline. We know for certain of the 5410 (Octa), the 5450 and 5440, both quad-core A15 chips that seem to never have been released. Other rumoured projects were the 5210, a supposed big.LITTLE chip in a 2 + 2 configuration.
Something went on during last winter that panicked the mobile division to change SoC provider for many variants of the S4. Mounting evidence of this can be found in the overlapping local-specific variants in the official source code of both Qualcomm and Exynos platforms. JF based variants, which are based on the Snapdragon chips, overlapped JA based variants, based on the Exynos platform. Korean (jf_ktt, jf_lgt, jf_skt <> jaltektt, jaltelgt, jalteskt), European (jf_eur <> jalte), and Japanese (jf_dcm <> jaltedcm) variants were developed for both platforms. The Korean variants ended up being the sole ones to actually hit the market with the Exynos platform, other than the global 3G version of which there’s no evident Qualcomm counterpart.
Chaotic development for the whole phone seems to have been the norm: Many parts changed supplier in prototype revisions, such as the Amtel touchscreen controller which gave way to a Synaptics counterpart, a MagnaChip AMOLED controller which is missing in action, and Philips LED controller which was shelved for a Texas Instruments IC. All of the prior seem like last-minute changes simply for the fact that their drivers and firmwares are delivered in the shipping product, even if they’re not used. A well-planned product is certainly something you would not call the S4.
One of the early reported reasons for the processor change was the unexpected power consumption of the Exynos. While this remains partly true and undoubtedly had an impact, the other reasons are far more sinister.
As a reminder, the Exynos 5410, as a big.LITTLE chip by design, is supposed to have different kinds of operating modes, mostly something that is defined and limited only by software:
- Cluster-migration; where only either one or the other quad-core clusters works at any one time.
- Core-migration; where both clusters can work in tandem but only have up to 4 physical CPUs online, but any mix of A7 and A15 cores can be achieved.
- Heterogeneous multiprocessing: All 8 cores are online at once.
The problem is that to achieve any of the latter two operating modes, a specific piece of hardware is needed that allows efficient and useful use of those models: the Cache-Coherrent-Interconect (CCI). As per ARM’s own claims: “Hardware coherency with CoreLink CCI-400 is a fundamental part of ARM big.LITTLE processing.”
While it has been obvious for several months that the person behind the SamsungExynos twitter account is nothing but a clueless PR representative, the above claim is nothing short of a lie.
We have information from several sources that Exynos’s CCI is inherently crippled in silicon. It is not functional or even powered on in the shipping product (i9500). In fact, this has been such of an issue, that as a result, the chip was almost cancelled. It was reportedly only salvaged by having it work in the cluster migration policy and bypass the CCI entirely. While contradicting, it questions the validity of ARM’s own videos while demonstrating the Octa.
Internally at SLSI, as many as three projects were cancelled late last year. We don’t know the reasons for their cancellation, however it is said that the issues are related, and unacceptable power consumption also plays a big role.
One can argue that ARM’s Cortex A15 is partly to blame here: The inherent architecture is to power consuming to be implemented in a smart-phone. big.LITTLE provides major breathing-room, but only in scenarios where continuous load is not an issue. HD gaming is a major Achilles heel where power consumption can run rampant. Nvidia is having it much worse with their Tegra 4: With only a single tablet design win besides their own Shield gaming console, it’s a chip that needs to, and will be, quickly forgotten.
Plagued by delays, hardware bugs, and high power consumption, one could view the Exynos 5410 as nothing short of a failure. In fact, Samsung’s Mobile division was so dismayed at the whole situation that their next major products will completely forego the company’s own Exynos chips and go straight with Qualcomm’s offerings.
Reports that the Note 3 would come with the S800 match with this information, and are probably very correct.
With confirmed designs such as the Galaxy Tab 3 coming with an Intel processor, and the rest of the new Galaxy line-up shipping with various variants of Qualcomm’s Snapdragon S-series, the mobile division should be lauded for providing the user with the best possible experience – even if that involves skipping the Exynos. They have proven that they have no qualms to use a wide array of third-party suppliers (ST-Ericsson, Intel, Broadcom, Qualcomm) to base their products on, and this strategy is proven to be successful.
As for SLSI, things look very bleak for Samsung’s in-house processors. The business is failing to cater, not only in terms of support, like providing proper hardware documentation and source code to the public, but the current line-up is in shambles also in terms of hardware.
Lackluster graphics performance and outdated GPUs have become sort of a habit for the company. This reportedly is due to an unwillingness to spend the money on IP licenses from third-party companies, and the use of Mali GPUs in their SoCs is due to a free licensing agreement they receive from ARM as a lead partner. The surprise use of the SGX 544MP3 in the Exynos 5410 is due to panic caused by Mali’s own T6xx GPUs: again an issue of extremely excessive power consumption. The first generation Midgard lineup was quickly scrapped, leaving the Exynos 5250 and its T604 as something of an orphan. Products like the T658 never saw the light of day and are not even mentioned anymore on ARM’s website.
Meanwhile, while their shipping products are failing to properly compete, Samsung is spending a lot of money on developing their own GPU IP from scratch. Not much information is available as to when we will see this in actual products, but it will eventually come, if not cancelled or delayed due to its unorthodox implementation of an FPGA-like re-programmable design which might be hit-or-miss. Imagination’s Rogue architecture and years of experience as a leading GPU IP provider will be tough competition.
CPU wise, things look just as bleak. Qualcomm currently dominates the performance per Watt scale for the high-end with the newest Krait architectures. With no custom design in the works, as done by Apple or Qualcomm, and no A57 or A53 as architectural refreshes from ARM, nor a new 20nm manufacturing process coming until 2014, the Exynos A15 line-up looks incapable of competing in the near-future.
(Disclaimer- sammobile)
the most shocking thing about this article is it comes from one of the most reliable site about anything and everything related to Samsun mobile division!!!
So you did not write this yourself (from the sounds of the last line you wrote), but you don't provide a link to the original source or credit beyond a veiled reference to sammobile?
Let me guess, so Exynos Octa is a fail product? :laugh:
windozeanti said:
Let me guess, so Exynos Octa is a fail product? :laugh:
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well its not exactly a fail product, cause as the article and research said, the final product has not got enough homework as it deserved.
im pretty sure samsung would fix this in Note 3 and i highly doubt that samsung would introduce Note 3 without Exynos processor. it will have Snapdragon 800 (i wish) but it will also have exynos version. samsung would not leave its own chip just like that!
windozeanti said:
Let me guess, so Exynos Octa is a fail product? :laugh:
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It runs the fastest mobile phone ever, it just never reached it's full potential, you know topping out round 2.3GHz, proper core migration for efficiency and total smoothness, stronger GPU. Then again, it's still the industry leader, but not without issues, so I guess Sammy will work on it, possibly bringing it over 20nm.
OMG !! after reading i want to sell my i9500
this device is 50-50 ... 50% updates 50% legacy !
if this will be considered a fail project i will break this into two !!!! rawr ~~~ im so dammnn dead !
gdonanthony said:
OMG !! after reading i want to sell my i9500
this device is 50-50 ... 50% updates 50% legacy !
if this will be considered a fail project i will break this into two !!!! rawr ~~~ im so dammnn dead !
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come on guys dont be like this! u should be really proud of ur S4! blunder from samsung aside, why dont u feel pride on ur S4 that being a bit not what it should have been it still is the fastest smartphone on the market right now and that will remain until Note 3 comes out...!
after reading what uve posted i feel my S4 i9500 suxxx bigtime
Wow,
I'm happy i got the I9505
This post is in compliance with the national potato safety regulation.
[Galaxy S 4 LTE]
but still i think andrie will not give up on this big.LITTLE arch though,,i hope so XD
Why is this thread 60% of whining while only 40% of problem solving? I'll quote what I said in another thread.
Tears for Fears said:
Why are you guys whining? I9500 is *THE* fastest smartphone in business. This flaw only means lesser battery but the battery is still very sufficient. GSMArena rated it 65h. To put this in perspective, Sony Xperia Z and HTC One got 48h. Galaxy S III got 50h, iPhone 5 got 51h, LG Optimus G Pro got 50h and Nokia Lumia 920 got 44h. Why are you whining when you get 65h? That's A LOT more than the flagships of other major manufacturers! Yes, if big.LITTLE would be implemented correctly, you'd get maybe 70-75h rating but in my opinion, 65h is HUGE compared to others' 45-50h.
Really, stop complaining and enjoy having the most powerful smartphone on Earth with an amazing battery life!
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Now can we please stop whining? It does no good to this thread.
Tears for Fears said:
Why is this thread 60% of whining while only 40% of problem solving? I'll quote what I said in another thread.
Now can we please stop whining? It does no good to this thread.
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I see your intentions
But would you let these companies screw your hard earned money?
At least let corporations work hard at providing us a product worth every cent.
Samsung did a terrible job at rushing things with the device. They have sacrificed a huge margin of time trying to implement protocols which they knew in the first place would have a risk of being feasible for the entire market.
So now they defray their failures to us by selling a partially finished product with huge non-uniform variants of the same device name then make all these crazy impulsive changes then run away with our money then denying most of the issues that are clearly present.
They even don't document their own chip pretty well neither.
So we just got screwed by samsung.
Better rick roll ourselves at most.
This post is in compliance with the national potato safety regulation.
[Galaxy S 4 LTE]
aami.aami said:
Something went on during last winter that panicked the mobile division to change SoC provider for many variants of the S4. Mounting evidence of this can be found in the overlapping local-specific variants in the official source code of both Qualcomm and Exynos platforms.
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Or, as is typical in the development stage of many products, the s/w coding got ahead of the decisions on h/w so they coded for both eventualities. Since none of us work for Samsung any assumption of "panic" is a wild ass guess. Both Octa and S-600 don't come with an in-built baseband. S-600 already has the necessary interfaces and drivers while they'd have to be written for Octa. Maybe that work couldn't have been done in time considering all the different LTE markets that would need to be coded for. That, or it was just simpler and easier to use S-600 in LTE markets. They used Octa/LTE in Korea, their home town market, so I highly doubt they did that if it wasn't considered their "premium" offering. Last year for the SGS3, shipments were 1/3 LTE and 2/3 HSPA. This year it's the reverse. So favoring S-600 over Octa could be purely a market driven decision based on the larger availability of LTE this year. I agree something could have gone wrong that caused a last minute shift to S-600 and away from Octa but some stray code found in the kernel isn't a smoking gun.
Chaotic development for the whole phone seems to have been the norm: Many parts changed supplier in prototype revisions, such as the Amtel touchscreen controller which gave way to a Synaptics counterpart, a MagnaChip AMOLED controller which is missing in action, and Philips LED controller which was shelved for a Texas Instruments IC. All of the prior seem like last-minute changes simply for the fact that their drivers and firmwares are delivered in the shipping product, even if they’re not used. A well-planned product is certainly something you would not call the S4.
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Has anyone here run a large-scale product development group? Or worked on a h/w or s/w project that's the scope of launching a major electronic device? It's always chaos. Especially the last mile. The SGS4 could have been more chaotic than other devices Samsung's released but since none of us were on the project teams we're just guessing that last minute decisions were made because of crisis and error.
The problem is that to achieve any of the latter two operating modes, a specific piece of hardware is needed that allows efficient and useful use of those models: the Cache-Coherrent-Interconect (CCI). As per ARM’s own claims: “Hardware coherency with CoreLink CCI-400 is a fundamental part of ARM big.LITTLE processing.”
We have information from several sources that Exynos’s CCI is inherently crippled in silicon. It is not functional or even powered on in the shipping product (i9500). In fact, this has been such of an issue, that as a result, the chip was almost cancelled. It was reportedly only salvaged by having it work in the cluster migration policy and bypass the CCI entirely. While contradicting, it questions the validity of ARM’s own videos while demonstrating the Octa.
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This is the way big.LITTLE is supposed to work. I'd like to understand what's missing and what replaced it.
As a reminder, the Exynos 5410, as a big.LITTLE chip by design, is supposed to have different kinds of operating modes, mostly something that is defined and limited only by software:
- Cluster-migration; where only either one or the other quad-core clusters works at any one time.
- Core-migration; where both clusters can work in tandem but only have up to 4 physical CPUs online, but any mix of A7 and A15 cores can be achieved.
- Heterogeneous multiprocessing: All 8 cores are online at once.
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There are only two operating models. Why is Samsung choosing to implement one over the other "screwing" anyone? The dev community not having a toy to play with doesn't mean Octa's a commercial failure because 99.9% of i9500 owners don't give a crap that it could be operating in two modes but instead is only operating in one.
Plagued by delays, hardware bugs, and high power consumption, one could view the Exynos 5410 as nothing short of a failure. In fact, Samsung’s Mobile division was so dismayed at the whole situation that their next major products will completely forego the company’s own Exynos chips and go straight with Qualcomm’s offerings. Reports that the Note 3 would come with the S800 match with this information, and are probably very correct. With confirmed designs such as the Galaxy Tab 3 coming with an Intel processor, and the rest of the new Galaxy line-up shipping with various variants of Qualcomm’s Snapdragon S-series, the mobile division should be lauded for providing the user with the best possible experience – even if that involves skipping the Exynos. They have proven that they have no qualms to use a wide array of third-party suppliers (ST-Ericsson, Intel, Broadcom, Qualcomm) to base their products on, and this strategy is proven to be successful.
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Does anyone here know what the production goals are for Octa? And over what time frame? Without knowing that how could 1/3 of SGS4's shipping with Octa be considered a failure? Qualcomm licenses ARM technology as the basis for all their designs. So the chip after S-800 will be big.LITTLE also as ARM's spent two years developing it and spent several billion dollars to do so. Exynos 5410 is the first and only commercial implementation of big.LITTLE. I highly doubt it's perfect as V1 of anything rarely is. But all this speculation of failure and use of adjectives like "chaos" is based on a very narrow and shortsighted view of what's basically a long view game.
Here are the white papers on big.LITTLE; three from ARM and one from Samsung. The Samsung paper's been authored by their Principal Engineer who has a PhD. When someone here who's got a PhD that’s being paid $500K+ a year and responsible for the s/w running hundreds of millions of devices writes a similar paper with as much fact and detail in it showing why big.LITTLE's a failure I'll be all ears. Until them I'm hoping the N3 has Octa because (at least to me) the long term benefit of having a big.LITTLE equipped device outweighs the short-term gains of going with Qualcomm's interpretation of a five-year old ARM design. For a site that's supposed to be technical you guys sure have a sour view on new and emerging technologies.
http://www.arm.com/files/downloads/big_LITTLE_Final_Final.pdf
http://www.arm.com/files/pdf/Advances_in_big.LITTLE_Technology_for_Power_and_Energy_Savings.pdf
http://www.arm.com/files/downloads/Software_Techniques_for_ARM_big.LITTLE_Systems.pdf
http://www.arm.com/files/downloads/Benefits_of_the_big.LITTLE_architecture.pdf
How would we feel barry with our 9500s without you barry.
Seriously, as a consumer, all i want is to know that i have the best and fastest smartphone when i traded my hard earned cash for it. As long as i know that i can run my desired apps faster than any other device out there, i know that i have gotten my money's worth. I couldnt care less if samsung hasnt done enough homework to utilize the big little technology at its fullest.
So please lets stop with the whining and complaining about the 9500 because its not helping out those who have gotten it. All of this to me feels like all bitterness. No punn intended. Just my thoughts. Thanks!
I knew that something little will be wrong with the octa, since it is the first time release, I think that all of these issues will be corrected by Samsung surely. I will stick with my GT-I9100G (beast-of-a-smartphone BTW is giving fight nowadays) until a new octa-core with those issues fixed comes up, may be the note 3
Sent from my Galaxy S2 using xda app-developers app
So i need to sell my octa one
Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
What's the big deal guys? So big.LITTLE isn't working as expected. We're still using the A15 processor which is a beast. The only benefit of big.LITTLE is enhanced battery life and even that is on par with the other flagship devices.
crzr said:
I think that all of these issues will be corrected by Samsung surely.
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One of the points OP made that's spot on is how competitive the mobile SoC business is. Unless Samsung's planning to exit the business which nothing points to, they'll have to keep innovating and providing cost effective, powerful, and energy efficient solutions to power not only future Samsung devices but other manufacturer's devices as well. Designing, engineering, and producing a SoC costs several hundred million dollars. Committing to big.LITTLE wasn't a "throw it against the wall and see if it'll stick" decision.
Samsung's supposed to sell 80MM SGS4's this year which means 24MM (1/3) of them will be Octa. HTC's projecting 20MM One's. That means there will be more Octa devices produced than all of HTC's flagship S-600 device. So I'd hardly call it a failure. And it’s great that Samsung’s experimenting with Intel. The 10.1” G-Tab 3 that’s supposed to have an Intel chip will probably sell 10MM units; if it’s the only SoC used which some are speculating it’ll only be for certain markets.
Here are some excerpts from Samsung’s Q1 earning’s release talking about their semi-conductor business. It certainly doesn’t sound like the division is in trouble or Samsung’s walking away from it any time soon.
As for this year's capital expenditure, Samsung Electronics executed a combined total of 3.9 trillion won for the quarter. The Semiconductor and Display Panel segments were each accountable for 1.5 trillion won ($1.3B USD) in capex spending. Samsung is poised to increase investment beginning from the second half of the fiscal year to preempt rising demand for differentiated products and to harness its competitiveness in the high-tech industry.
Samsung's Semiconductor businesses - including Memory and System LSI - posted consolidated 8.58 trillion won in revenue ($2.8B USD), a 11-percent drop from a quarter earlier. The Memory chip unit logged 5.12 trillion won in earnings but, compared with the previous period, quarter-on-quarter revenue retreated 4 percent.Profitability for the System LSI Business was hampered by seasonally slow demand in set products that use logic chips.Considering Octa is "V1" and that it out-benchmarks S-600 and gets very close to the same battery life the way it was shipped I'd very much call it a success. S-600 is nothing more than an evolution of previous Snapdragon chips. So that Samsung/ARM's first use of big.LITTLE is so competitive against a years old architecture that OEM’s are comfortable with implementing says a lot about what Samsung/ARM have done and what the upside potential is.
AnandTech talking about S4 - At present, this is the same Krait CPU as what we've seen in MSM8960 in phones like the USA versions of the Galaxy S 3 and HTC One X. Later on, Krait v3 will emerge with higher IPC and shorter critical paths (and clocks up to 1.7 or 2 GHz) and a resulting 10-15% boost in performance. For now however we're looking at 1.5 GHz APQ8064 with a Krait v2 inside and Qualcomm's newest scalar GPU architecture with Adreno 320.AnandTech talking about S-600 - Also being announced today is the Snapdragon 600. This part integrates four Krait 300 cores running at up to 1.9GHz. Adreno 320 handles GPU duties, although with an increased clock speed. Compared to the current Snapdragon S4, the 600 is expected to improve performance by up to 40% if you combine IPC and frequency increases.
I love this phone. ( I wish they'd fix this M****R F*****G Camera Reboot issue.) But I bought it because of the lies they told me.
hoezay said:
I love this phone. ( I wish they'd fix this M****R F*****G Camera Reboot issue.) But I bought it because of the lies they told me.
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What lies? When did they tell anything about how the CPU will work? Can you provide a link please?