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Has anyone had a problem with extremely slow charging? I would plug my phone in and wake up 6 hours later and the phone is still not charged. It's even worse now with the extended battery. 7 hours worth of charging and I'm only at 85%. I'm rooted and using the de-bloat rom without the kernel, but it was like this even before the root. Has anyone else encountered this strange issue. I have been using the stock HTC charger.
mine charges in a couple hours using the wall charger and wifi hotspot. In the car or via computer USB, it charges very slowly and if wifi hotspot is on, it loses charger over time.
I typically turn my phone off to charge; speeds things up 2-3 fold.
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App
loztboy said:
Has anyone had a problem with extremely slow charging? I would plug my phone in and wake up 6 hours later and the phone is still not charged. It's even worse now with the extended battery. 7 hours worth of charging and I'm only at 85%. I'm rooted and using the de-bloat rom without the kernel, but it was like this even before the root. Has anyone else encountered this strange issue. I have been using the stock HTC charger.
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Mine doesn't even take an hour . Power it off and try it that way and see how long it takes.
damn mine charges super fast compared to my nexus s i had
If you have plug to the computer it might take longer but not 6 hours, on the wall it only takes like an hour or two to be fully charge.
If it's an issue just take it back and get another one.
Yeah I might have to return this phone. Do you think it matters whether I use the cable that came with the phone, or a regular usb cable to charge.
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA Premium App
You need to look at the power ratings of the adapters you're using. This behemoth phone can receive 1000ma, while many car and home chargers (like Droid1) are only rated at 500ma. I'm still trying to figure out what the power draw is on the phone when just idling (battery monitor widget is hard to understand), but if the phone draws 250-500ma with regular usage, its going to lose charge plugged into USB (rated at 500ma per port) and running hotspot (drawing closer to 600ma). That's -100ma.
These numbers are guesstimates. I'm not sure if the cable itself can pose limitations, but would suspect that as long as there's no shorts in the wire, it would be able to handle any of the above currents.
fronc said:
You need to look at the power ratings of the adapters you're using. This behemoth phone can receive 1000ma, while many car and home chargers (like Droid1) are only rated at 500ma. I'm still trying to figure out what the power draw is on the phone when just idling (battery monitor widget is hard to understand), but if the phone draws 250-500ma with regular usage, its going to lose charge plugged into USB (rated at 500ma per port) and running hotspot (drawing closer to 600ma). That's -100ma.
These numbers are guesstimates. I'm not sure if the cable itself can pose limitations, but would suspect that as long as there's no shorts in the wire, it would be able to handle any of the above currents.
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yeah i find it impossible to charge the thing on USB, and it takes forever plugged into the wall with the charger it came with.
Had an evo, and it would almost full charge (from the time it said to plug it in, so 15%) in about an hour and a half. The thunderbolt seems to take 3 hours ish for me. I know I can turn the phone off, but since it usually charges over night its not a big deal, I just think it is interesting that it is so different.
yeah I'm one of the folks who charges FAST. It has really surprised me...I actually thought everyone was charging super fast until this thread.
fronc said:
You need to look at the power ratings of the adapters you're using. This behemoth phone can receive 1000ma, while many car and home chargers (like Droid1) are only rated at 500ma. I'm still trying to figure out what the power draw is on the phone when just idling (battery monitor widget is hard to understand), but if the phone draws 250-500ma with regular usage, its going to lose charge plugged into USB (rated at 500ma per port) and running hotspot (drawing closer to 600ma). That's -100ma.
These numbers are guesstimates. I'm not sure if the cable itself can pose limitations, but would suspect that as long as there's no shorts in the wire, it would be able to handle any of the above currents.
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+1 on looking at your adapter. Use the one that comes with the phone or make sure that it's rated at 1000mA/1A or more. I tried a MicroUSB adapter I had lying around that came with a bluetooth headset; turns out it only puts out 200mA, so the phone would take forever to charge on it.
ufmace said:
+1 on looking at your adapter. Use the one that comes with the phone or make sure that it's rated at 1000mA/1A or more. I tried a MicroUSB adapter I had lying around that came with a bluetooth headset; turns out it only puts out 200mA, so the phone would take forever to charge on it.
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with an output of 200mA I would be amazed if you could get this phone to charge at all, without having a custome kernel and underclocking the processor. If anything I would see it maybe staying same battery percentage.
Overall I feel this phone does charge really slow. It is way slow charging on a computer. I was charging it and just doing some light texting and after 4 hours the battery only went up by like 25%.
I have a second wall charger rated at 1000mAH, and after 30min it went up like 10%. This was with the phone off btw. With it on, but not in use, it went up like 4% over 30min. I'm kind of surprised how long it takes to charge. I've had no problems charging it at night. Plug it in before bed, and its full when I wake up. How does the 1400mAH battery size compare to other phones?
I did a little math too, the battery is a 5.18 W/hr battery. So with a 1AH charge at 5V, you'd expect the phone to charge in 2 hrs if only about 50% of the electricity is getting retained by the battery.
I've noticed that mine takes about 1hr 45ish mins to charge from completly dead. My Droid used to be an hour at the most.
i just checked on the adapter it came with, it's 200 mA...did people get better chargers than me or something? Mine takes forever to charge also...been stuck at 99% for 30 mins
EDIT: nvm, i was looking at input, not output...still isnt moving from 99% to 100% though
jbh00jh said:
Mine doesn't even take an hour . Power it off and try it that way and see how long it takes.
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WTF are u talking about 0-100% or like 70-100%?
lorijuan1024 said:
damn mine charges super fast compared to my nexus s i had
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@lorijuan1024 im with you man the Nexus S took forever...... To charge
its impossible for me to charge it through the computer, it went up 5% over 3 hours, wasnt on hotspot, sending texts.
Mine charges fine on anything, I am using my old fascinate charger.
Charging speed seems to fluctuate for me... sometimes I get lucky and its fast. Other times, not so much.
I recently got my new nexus s. Is there a difference when charging it from a USB port and from a power outlet? Seems like it charges faster from a power outlet but that could be just me.
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
I get the same feeling. Charges faster from a power outlet.
Pretty much everything will charge faster from a wall outlet, there's just not that much power being given over USB.
I've got a charger that gives the same power as a USB socket that I use if I'm charging overnight, I figure it's slightly more environmentally friendly since my phone will take longer to charge.
USB only supplies about 500ma. Where the outlet is more like 1000ma. So yes it would charge faster from an outlet.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA Premium App
Yes, most phones charge faster through power outlet, usb give you less current, usually takes longer to charge.
Thanks for your replies. Out of curiosity, does charging from a computer reduce my battery's life because it takes longer to charge?
No. Trickle charging is supposed to be better on the battery than hitting it hard with a quick charge. What I consider a quick charge would be an aa or similar charger that can charge from dead to full in like an hour or less. 15 minute chargers, IMO, are very hard on batteries. Usually heat isn't good for cells and these chargers get the battery so hot it sometimes is too hot to touch.
In the case with these phones and charging the battery while in the phone, you shouldn't worry too much about it. The phone will regulate how much current and voltage gets to the battery even if you have a charger that is capable of delivering lots of power. If you had the battery out of the phone and in an external charger, that's when you need to look into it.
So, under normal conditions, don't worry about it.
Hi guys, I got 2 subject so I thought I'll just make one thread for this.
I'm from EU so I used my US charger with an other plug. Seemed to
work great, doesn't complain like it does with my HTC phone charger.
But now the charger gets pretty hot, along with the USBplug that is in the charger. Should I be worried? I would say its about 50-70celsius.
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So I got Quake from preware, but it doesn't work with touch only (even tho there r touch controls?) so Im wondering if its possible to get it working with this:
http://icontrolpad.com/
That would be nice with the snes emulator also so I might buy it, its very expensive tho but I like the oldschool'ness of it.
You're likely to burn it out if you keep using it, don't leave it on unattended.
Troute said:
You're likely to burn it out if you keep using it, don't leave it on unattended.
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Sure? Does your get hot?
The charger should handle ~220v as we got here. So I don't get why this shouldn't work.
Isnt there a way to find a compatible European charger without paying 30$ for the travel pack?
Pretty much any micro-USB charge will charge the Touchpad, it is just some will be quicker than others. I am charging from the USB port on my laptop at the moment and it has upped the charge by 8% in the last hour or so with the screen off.
dmarchant said:
Pretty much any micro-USB charge will charge the Touchpad, it is just some will be quicker than others. I am charging from the USB port on my laptop at the moment and it has upped the charge by 8% in the last hour or so with the screen off.
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Yeah but the normal one gives about 30% on that time. But as I said, it should work, no problem. I don't think its uncommon for it to get hot but I'm not sure tho
My official charger gets quite warm, together with the USB plug. Clearly that is the only device that will charge at full speed and without a warning on the screen. However, as I was trying to point out, you don't have to go down the official charger route if you are prepared to either accept the on-screen warning or a slower charge rate. The Blackberry Playbook charger gives 5V 2A and although it comes up with the on-screen warning charges almost as quickly as the official unit.
I bought one of these http://www.mymemory.co.uk/iPod---iP...s-USB-Charger-and-Socket-for-iPod_iPhone_iPad the other day, rated at 2.1 amps (though the unit shows 3 amps). I get the dire message about not enough voltage or current but it works fine and quickly. Obviously I don't use the supplied Apple cable...
not sure if this is just a coincidence, but I did something by accident that has has improved my battery life. After trying many tips and apps like Battery Dr+ and with modest results. I tried charging with the HP touchpad charger that I recently got. It puts out higher voltage than the standard USB AC adapters. To my surprise , my battery charges super quick and holds a charge even better. Again, it could just be nothing, but my Triumph is experiencing extra battery life as well from the touchpads charger. Just thought I'd throw it out to see if anyone has any thoughts on it.
We should ask the mythbusters lol
Sent from my Droid Charge 4G running Gummy Charged 2.0
USB is 5V, so I'd like to know how it is putting out more than that without damaging anything. Also, as I've stated numerous times (does anyone ever read around here?), the amperage output listed on the charger will have almost no effect on how fast the phone charges. The only time it will affect it is if the output amperage is less than what the phone will accept and the charger will limit output, but I doubt any charger with a power output below what the phone will take would be complex enough to do that.
Your phone will detect if you are getting power from a USB port or the stock charger. It will accept higher current with the stock charger. If you are charging from other charger, it will charge slow. To fix that, buy a new and cut open your USB cable. Short the 2 data cable.
orateam said:
not sure if this is just a coincidence, but I did something by accident that has has improved my battery life. After trying many tips and apps like Battery Dr+ and with modest results. I tried charging with the HP touchpad charger that I recently got. It puts out higher voltage than the standard USB AC adapters. To my surprise , my battery charges super quick and holds a charge even better. Again, it could just be nothing, but my Triumph is experiencing extra battery life as well from the touchpads charger. Just thought I'd throw it out to see if anyone has any thoughts on it.
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The stock charger is rated at 5.0V/1.0A.
What is the HP Touchpad charger rated at?
I too have an HP touchpad and have noticed quicker charge times. Not sure about battery life though since it varies on my use. I cant use my samsung charger to charge the Touchpad, it says its not powerful enough.
Ted A said:
The stock charger is rated at 5.0V/1.0A.
What is the HP Touchpad charger rated at?
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from what i read, the HP charger is 5.3/2.0 Amps.
Not really sure why this would make a difference, since usb voltage is standardized and the kernel controls how much amperage goes to the phone. I once thought my Gtab charger did this, but imnuts pointed all the above facts to me.
Sent from my Droid Charge running GummyCharged 2.0
Hey guys,
I was looking for some clarification on this topic.
So I heard on a youtube video (can't remember which, for the life of me, I just know it was an S8 video) that Wireless Charging has a better impact on battery in the long run.
They had stated that the battery would continue to hold a better charge over time, where as, if you used wired charging, the amount of charge the battery can hold over time would be much less to when you first got it.
Now I do know that battery gets worse over time, however, I have never heard anything about how wireless charging can increase the longitivtiy of the battery.
Maybe someone on here might have more information on this?
I will try to find that youtube video but if this is the case, then I will definitely need to get a wireless charger.
Regards
Unless this youtuber tested 2 phones for a year, charging one with a cable and another with wireless charging i wouldn't listen to what they're saying.
peachpuff said:
Unless this youtuber tested 2 phones for a year, charging one with a cable and another with wireless charging i wouldn't listen to what they're saying.
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Yeah I agree. A believe a charge cycle is the same regardless of how it is being charged.
Would never think wired charging puts more stress on battery life.
I think though that with wireless charging once the phone is fully charged the pad cuts out so it won't over charge
With a wired connection when the phone is charged its still consistently trying to charge which can end up damage battering the long term
craigels said:
I think though that with wireless charging once the phone is fully charged the pad cuts out so it won't over charge
With a wired connection when the phone is charged its still consistently trying to charge which can end up damage battering the long term
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This is also what I have been wondering. If this is true then I may get a nice wireless pad for charging overnight (maybe the new official samsung "convertible" one but its damn expensive). I would have thought that the phone itself knows when a battery is charged and stops drawing the current from the cable though, so it would make no difference either way if that is true (but perhaps its not?).
But I did hear the exact opposite to op, that wireless charging was worse for the batteries, possibly due to the heat generated. But I don't know how true that is.
True
It's better for the battery because it charges it more slowly than a direct wired connection. There is no more heat buildup than using a wired charger, in fact likely less since the charging rate is lower.
As for the other comment that a wired charger doesn't shut off but keeps charging once the battery is full is patently false. The charging circuits whether wired or wireless are quite intelligent and gradually ramp down the charging current as the battery approaches capacity, ultimately delivering just enough current to keep the phone running. In a closed system the energy has to go somewhere and if the charger didn't do this you'd have 18W of power being dissipated as heat and a serious problem on your hands.
craigdamey said:
It's better for the battery because it charges it more slowly than a direct wired connection. There is no more heat buildup than using a wired charger, in fact likely less since the charging rate is lower.
As for the other comment that a wired charger doesn't shut off but keeps charging once the battery is full is patently false. The charging circuits whether wired or wireless are quite intelligent and gradually ramp down the charging current as the battery approaches capacity, ultimately delivering just enough current to keep the phone running. In a closed system the energy has to go somewhere and if the charger didn't do this you'd have 18W of power being dissipated as heat and a serious problem on your hands.
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For wireless I believe the heat generated is more, it is about the method of delivering the power, not the speed. The induction used to transfer power wirelessly is obviously going to be far less efficient and will generate more heat to get even a slower transfer rate then getting the power straight down a cable (but if someone knows otherwise then feel free to correct me). But then I guess the slower charging rate might also put less stress on the battery which is probably good.
For the wired, what you are basically saying is that leaving a phone plugged in to a wired charger will not harm it since the current will have been reduced in the same way a car battery charger might reduce it to a "maintenance" mode once it is fully charged. So people are believing the old myths that you can overcharge a phone, which would seem to be impossible (although I do wonder why they keep slapping up notifications saying things like "FULLY CHARGED! UNPLUG CABLE!" as if leaving it plugged in would in some way damage it!).
Just saw this which explains the overcharging possibility (or lack of)
http://www.androidauthority.com/leave-phone-plugged-overnight-703078/
ewokuk said:
For wireless I believe the heat generated is more, it is about the method of delivering the power, not the speed. [/url]
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The coils themselves don't generate a significant amount of heat, it's the battery itself that causes the phone to get hot. Slower charging means less heat, which is better for your battery so wireless charging will increase your battery life. As the article notes it is also best to keep your phone above 40% charge, partly because fast chargers slow down significantly after 50% to save the battery. That initial burst from 0-50% is done to save you from a dying battery but it takes its toll.
Also note that the S8/S8+ have new battery technology that provides much improved battery life. They're saying 5% loss of capacity after two years compared to 20% for previous generations.
As a bonus not continuously plugging/unplugging a cable from your USB port will make that last longer too. I hardly ever plug my S7 Edge into a physical cable, and I know quite a few people who have killed their USB ports and can no longer charge and or transfer data from them.
craigdamey said:
The coils themselves don't generate a significant amount of heat, it's the battery itself that causes the phone to get hot. Slower charging means less heat, which is better for your battery so wireless charging will increase your battery life. As the article notes it is also best to keep your phone above 40% charge, partly because fast chargers slow down significantly after 50% to save the battery. That initial burst from 0-50% is done to save you from a dying battery but it takes its toll.
Also note that the S8/S8+ have new battery technology that provides much improved battery life. They're saying 5% loss of capacity after two years compared to 20% for previous generations.
As a bonus not continuously plugging/unplugging a cable from your USB port will make that last longer too. I hardly ever plug my S7 Edge into a physical cable, and I know quite a few people who have killed their USB ports and can no longer charge and or transfer data from them.
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Yeah I am torn at the moment between using cable and getting a wireless charger. I like my stuff charged asap but that's partly because i never leave it plugged in overnight and want it charged before bed (which I now know is not a problem anyway) and partly because i want to be able to unplug it to use it if i get a message or email, which isn't an issue with wireless as I can just pick it up and put it back on there after. I assume taking it off the charging pad and putting it back on will not have any detrimental effects to the battery. I am just trying to weigh up the pros and cons of each. All things considered I am leaning towards wireless, particularly if it isn't worse for the battery (although lets face it the difference in degradation between wireless and wired, is going to be so small it's probably not even noticeable after a couple of years by which time I would have a new phone anyway). I wonder if there is a better wireless charger which will be more future proof than the new convertible samsung one (in case I ditch samsung in future) and still give max speed, I would like one that is tilted so I can see the screen though.
My s5 is 3 years old and has only ever been charged by the massive double width "micro USB" cable which takes some force to get in and out of the socket. Still works perfectly though. Never had any usb port of any kind on any device fail, no idea what these other people are doing to kill them!
ewokuk said:
Yeah I am torn at the moment between using cable and getting a wireless charger.
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Having the dock by my bed is very convenient. Just place it on at night and pick it up during the morning. If I need to grab it for anything I can without getting tangled up in wires and it even sits at the right angle so that the always on display becomes my nightstand clock/alarm clock. Once you've gone wireless you won't go back.
craigdamey said:
Having the dock by my bed is very convenient. Just place it on at night and pick it up during the morning. If I need to grab it for anything I can without getting tangled up in wires and it even sits at the right angle so that the always on display becomes my nightstand clock/alarm clock. Once you've gone wireless you won't go back.
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I always turn my phone off at night anyway so I don't get disturbed by some spam message or something (I know I can probably set it up to be silent at certain times, but then why leave it on at all, using the battery for nothing). £70 for that Samsung charger though!! I know there are much cheaper ones but I am not sure they will charge at the same rate, the new samsung one charges faster than any previous wireless charger AFAIK and I would want one where the phone can sit up, and most are just flat. Hmmmm although the do have it for £50 on amazon sold by "fonejoy", still steep though.
This one looks good https://www.amazon.co.uk/CHOETECH-W...=UTF8&qid=1492192247&sr=1-9&keywords=choetech but not sure if itll charge at the same speed as the new samsung one and doesnt use a USB-C connector which probably rules it out. May as well just get the samsung one.
I use the US version of this and it works fine. https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Mobile-P...d=1492192742&sr=1-5&keywords=rav+power+qc+2.0. The Fast Charging Dock comes with a cable so that should be all you need.
And yes, I have my Do Not Disturb settings to suppress notifications 10:30PM to 6:30AM. Wife complained she couldn't sleep with all that noise going on
craigdamey said:
I use the US version of this and it works fine. https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Mobile-P...d=1492192742&sr=1-5&keywords=rav+power+qc+2.0. The Fast Charging Dock comes with a cable so that should be all you need.
And yes, I have my Do Not Disturb settings to suppress notifications 10:30PM to 6:30AM. Wife complained she couldn't sleep with all that noise going on
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Thats a wall charger? I'm talking about the charging pad itself. I believe the new Samsung one outputs 15w so is faster than any previous ones which are all 10w I think.
ewokuk said:
Thats a wall charger? I'm talking about the charging pad itself. I believe the new Samsung one outputs 15w so is faster than any previous ones which are all 10w I think.
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There are only two types of charging dock, standard and fast-charge. None of them output 15W to the phone. The expensive Samsung is just a fancy fast-charge dock so it will charge at the same rate as the Seneo and others that support fast-charge. The Samsung fast-charge adapter only provides a maximum output power of 15W (9V @ 1.67A) so it would require 100% transfer efficiency to charge the phone at that power, and in reality it's only about 65% so at most you'll see 10W versus standard Qi charging at around 7W.
All of the Seneo chargers I have coupled with RavPower or Samsung Fast-Charge adapters charge at the same rate (10W to begin with tapering off to 7W above 50% charge).
craigdamey said:
There are only two types of charging dock, standard and fast-charge. None of them output 15W to the phone. The expensive Samsung is just a fancy fast-charge dock so it will charge at the same rate as the Seneo and others that support fast-charge. The Samsung fast-charge adapter only provides a maximum output power of 15W (9V @ 1.67A) so it would require 100% transfer efficiency to charge the phone at that power, and in reality it's only about 65% so at most you'll see 10W versus standard Qi charging at around 7W.
All of the Seneo chargers I have coupled with RavPower or Samsung Fast-Charge adapters charge at the same rate (10W to begin with tapering off to 7W above 50% charge).
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Ahh ok, I will have to check out a few seneo pads.
If your using fast charging AKA Adaptive charging it shouldn't matter either way. The Fast charging port on the phone, and the wireless charging should go through the phone and the phone should automatically stop all charging going to the battery. This is the reason why if you were to leave your fast charger on all night whether it be Wireless or wired, you can pick your phone up at 99% or 98% instead of 100%. The phone stopped charging, then when it drops to a certain % it starts to charge up again.
As far as which is actually best for strain, it shouldnt matter because afaik to the battery its the all the same. Wireless charging just has some coils almost that send the charge wirelessly, but it still goes to the same place.
This is what I have read from google, so I am no expert on the subject, but it seemed pretty legit, and makes sense to me, a person with a Tech background. If anyone knows better please be my guest.
I'm going with wireless charging pads at home but a magnetic cable for in the car.
Not found a good car holder that has the wireless pad built in so I will stick with my ibolt for a bit longer
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
There is no correct answer to this question. Battery life is function of many things -
1. Every battery has specified charge cycle. One full charge from min to max is 1 cycle. Two full charge from mid to max is also 1 cycle. So the more you use your device, charge cycles will come to an end more quickly. For example if you use two similar spec phones; first one you use heavily requiring full cycle charge everyday vs second which you use less and requires full charge every alternate day (or to phrase in other way, first is almost completely discharged by evening, second is half discharged). So the theory goes that second phone battery will last double the time than first.
2. Every battery articles you read, you will find recommendation to charge battery in specified current or usually slow charging. Today's battery technology should be immune to this but I still turn fast charging off. It is likely that not all the batteries are immune.
3. Heat is bad for battery. Some wireless chargers heat up. The TYLT VU that I use get uncomfortably warm when I place phone vertically (possibly coils do not align and multiple of them gets activated). Heat build up is there during fast charging too. If you play CPU intensive games and charge at the same time, phone gets warm. All this heat is working negative to the life span of battery.
4. Lithium ion batteries have less chemical stress when they are not fully charged or fully discharged. If you research you will find articles telling one to keep battery between 40% to 90%. Hence I usually do not charge to 100% and if I do, I watch or play games to bring battery level down. Search for best charge level to store lithium ion batteries, I think it is from 45% to 50%. This I guess keeps batteries at the least chemical stress state. So do your maths if you are type who likes to keep battery at 100% charge at all the times.
As you can see there is no straight answer to this question. Battery life is function of all these factors.
Added: I didn't read full article but you can check this link which speaks about impact of heat and leaving battery to full charge state.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
Thanks for everyones input on this!
By the way, not sure if it has been mentioned, but this is a pretty cool read:
http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/0...ill-degrade-less-quickly-than-the-galaxy-s7s/
So looks like the S8 won't deteriorate as much over time!
I got the OEM samsung convertible fast charging pad but it doesn't come with a wall plug as I read somewhere (I guess thats just us in the UK getting screwed over yet again). The manual says "Use only Samsung-approved chargers that support fast charging (9v/1.67A, 9v/2A, 12v/2.1A).". So I need a wall plug that will be able to provide the fastest charging speeds from it (which I am guessing is one that does 12v/2.1A??). I dont think all the standard plugs with 2.4a sockets are going to do it right? The "30w" RAVpower one that craigdamey linked says it can do 12v/2A but only for QC3.0 (which I obviously wont get since its just being plugged straight into the charging pad), otherwise its 5v/2.4a. Not sure what one to get now. Theres an Anker 24w one but that says 2.4a per port (I know little about electrics and how these things work!).