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I was just browsing through some rss feeds and noticed the driver issue was posted on engadget a few minutes ago. This means that all the other gadget feeds will inherently post the same on their site. HTC is about feel the wrath of our members undying persistence. They mention xda-developers, and the htc class action site as well. Looks like HTC is gonna hafta give us what we paid for. I can't wait. I bet we'll have them damn drivers in a month or so. I know it's been popping up on other news sites lately bu I was SOO hyped to see it on engadget! I'm so frickin excited I can't wait/ gimmme gimme gimme.
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/...-angry-mobile-owners-rush-castle-htc-with-bu/
What's a GREAT News!!!! When you make public (and i say VERY PUBLIC) an issue, treating it as a SCANDALOUS fact, someone has to take measures about it.
I hope this is the situation
www.tweakers.net had also posted something about the driver issue.
Tweakers was among the first big sites to cover it.
They are the biggest dutch IT community, and are in the top 20 of most visited dutch websites, so thats good coverage. In the Kaiser threads on their forums the driver issue also got attention.
Given that HTC is pretty big here, even advertising on big billboards, it might give the regional managers a push to escalate matters.
I just suggested the info to the two most visited IT news sites in France (Clubic and PC INpact). PC INpact provides the IT News for Yahoo France.
I hope it will be published.
We got the BOY GENIUS ON BOARD
The Boy Genius just wrote up an article on the drivers
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/01/20/htc-shipping-devices-with-sub-par-drivers/
Boy Genius Report too (I sent them a "tip" but I'm sure they knew of this before hand too.. )
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/01/20/htc-shipping-devices-with-sub-par-drivers/
Bronx31 said:
The Boy Genius just wrote up an article on the drivers
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/01/20/htc-shipping-devices-with-sub-par-drivers/
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Thanks to me! I Asked them I also contacted the local news papers!
Bram87 said:
Thanks to me! I Asked them I also contacted the local news papers!
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Man, I'm telling you, ,,, WE WILL HAVE THOSE DRIVERS!! I've never seen a group of people online, band 2gether, and do what we have done This is incredible, seriously
w00t!! w00t!! I'm guessing HTC will come to its knees in the next week or two. What a glorious day it will be. I'm not certain, but I don't think they will have to do any development of these drivers. I think they've already been written, it's just a matter of paying for the license, and the goods will be ours. Does anybody know? I want to get an idea of how long we're talking about here, before I get to play crysis on my kaiser
briggs81 said:
Boy Genius Report too (I sent them a "tip" but I'm sure they knew of this before hand too.. )
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/01/20/htc-shipping-devices-with-sub-par-drivers/
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Hmm.. I contacted them with this story, Like more people I think...
Yeah, looks like this snowball is definitely rolling. I have to say though, even if the drivers are released, I'm not sure I'll be buying from HTC again. I really have no faith in them after this. Hopefully Eten or imate will step up by the time I need a new phone (although those companies have their problems as well). I think a lot of this has come for the simple reason that as long as people will eat crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. Maybe with this publicity, other companies will think twice about screwing over their customers too.
When even an at&t bloated Pantech C810 is more responsive than an optimized out Kaiser/TyTN II. And HTC still doesn't get it?
Blowfish64 said:
Yeah, looks like this snowball is definitely rolling. I have to say though, even if the drivers are released, I'm not sure I'll be buying from HTC again. I really have no faith in them after this. Hopefully Eten or imate will step up by the time I need a new phone (although those companies have their problems as well). I think a lot of this has come for the simple reason that as long as people will eat crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. Maybe with this publicity, other companies will think twice about screwing over their customers too.
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Seriosly I don't think (use IPAQ few years ago) nobady offer better device like HTC.I also sign the petition when was started.
And most of the device have something in common with HTC:
-Fujitsu-Siemens,HP Ipaq,Qtek,Imate all was developed by old HTC Company before they change a few years ago the policy to sell own branded phones.Search the history and you will see.I use for 2 year and 1/2 HTC products (TyTn,X7500-short time and TyTn II) and i like them and with XDA support I don't think you will find a better combination.
This whole things reminds me of my ipaq h6315 from a few years back. HP and T-Mobile were both soooooo slow in releasing drivers and updates for that device. If it werent for homebrew applications and roms that device would have been nearly useless.
http://androidspin.com/2011/01/12/b...amsung-is-holding-the-android-world-hostage/#
I see this is being discussed over in the Facinate forum as well.
Quote from the article says it all: "So what is Samsung doing? I’m not really sure at this point. Everything points to the company being more dead set on sales numbers instead of keeping the people that have made them millions happy."
Oh btw, doesn't really surprise me though and majority of the members here.
Duh! Would you, as a business, rather sell a new $500 handset or push an update which nets you $0.
Unfortunately, I know I'll be in line...
I disagree, Samsung has made available updates to Froyo for UK customers, Canadian customers, and now US cellular customers, I'm still placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of ATT and other US Carriers.
http://phandroid.com/2011/01/13/samsung-releases-froyo-for-us-cellulars-acclaim/
cappysw10 said:
Duh! Would you, as a business, rather sell a new $500 handset or push an update which nets you $0.
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I'd rather keep my current customers happy so they will keep coming back and keep buying my new products. Customer satisfaction is the name of the game. Besides, it's not like pushing 2.2 is going to mean that no one buys the newer handset. They are targeting a very niche market, a market that thrives on having the newest thing the first day it comes out. This same market will drop you like a rock if you don't keep them satisfied with their purchases.
Why do Apple fan boys keep buying Apple products? Because they are happy and satisfied. I doubt you'd find a comparative percentage of Samsung Galaxy S line owners feeling the same way.
The simple fact that the developers and community here at XDA, as well as other forums provide more support than Samsung does speaks volumes.
There's a number of reasons I don't like Apple and their products. But I was an Iphone 3G owner for a period of time. I had a problem, which was made into a bigger problem by a "Genius". I called Apple and the problem was solved within 24 hrs. That is customer service. That is customer satisfaction. That is why people keep buying Apple products and choking on Apple cawk.
I hardly feel any love from Samsung, I believe that many here share my view.
jwood55812 said:
I disagree, Samsung has made available updates to Froyo for UK customers, Canadian customers, and now US cellular customers, I'm still placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of ATT and other US Carriers.
http://phandroid.com/2011/01/13/samsung-releases-froyo-for-us-cellulars-acclaim/
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I concur with this.
jwood55812 said:
I disagree, Samsung has made available updates to Froyo for UK customers, Canadian customers, and now US cellular customers, I'm still placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of ATT and other US Carriers.
http://phandroid.com/2011/01/13/samsung-releases-froyo-for-us-cellulars-acclaim/
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If it is indeed AT&T that is stifling the update, then Samsung should say so. Sony did this with the Xperia X10. They put out a press release telling their angry customers that AT&T was to blame for the lack of updates.
It's worse for Samsung as a company to just keep promising updates that never come, then it is for them to direct us to be angry at the responsible entity.
Just dl a rom already xD
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
oni1jz said:
Just dl a rom already xD
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
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I did. I'm currently running Phoenix 3.0 and loving it. This is just a discussion about Samsung/AT&T/updates. That being said, when the next generation of phones comes out, I'm jumping ship.
At&t stopped the 6.5 win mo update for the fuze so people would buy the tilt 2. Why should this be any different?
From a phone
nooomoto said:
I did. I'm currently running Phoenix 3.0 and loving it. This is just a discussion about Samsung/AT&T/updates. That being said, when the next generation of phones comes out, I'm jumping ship.
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I don't think you'll be alone in that regard.
MAN OVERBOARD!!!
They already have you for 2yr contract, and most won't pay for the cancellation fee. So their rush on updates, eh, their (Samsung and AT$T) not.
Opinion: Their main concern right now is not the update, but Verizon getting the Iphone. So I am assuming updates are least of their problems, especially if they already got you for 2yrs. Only good thing coming out of this, we see the next generations of android phones coming out.
That is why competition is good, but for customer support....I think we all get the shaft.
I am betting on CM6.11 or CM7 working.
as far as I am concerned we will never see another update from att.
Those bastards will probable not release it with the new phones coming out.
I just want something "Official" so that the audio out on my dock will work...
OVCArchion said:
I just want something "Official" so that the audio out on my dock will work...
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I just want something official so someone can build a new ROM off of it and the GPS, Bluetooth, Audio out, lights, etc all work and I'm not fighting with an i9000 ROM.
boborone said:
At&t stopped the 6.5 win mo update for the fuze so people would buy the tilt 2. Why should this be any different?
From a phone
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Not sure where you saw that. It was not a AT&T or HTC decision. Microsoft only allowed official WM 6.5 updates for phones with the "Windows" button on them. Since the Fuze had a "home" button, it did not qualify for WM 6.5. If AT&T had held it back, then other Raphael, Diamond, and/or Blackstone handsets (Verizon TP, etc) would have gotten WM 6.5. In fact none of the Raphael, Diamond, or Blackstone phones got WM 6.5.
I am certainly happy enough with all the ROMS on here that I don't care as much for an official release. My phone does everything I want it to do, so im happy. But I DO think its pretty crappy to not update the phones, especially for the users that don't visit this forum. Its typical business and unfortunately the customer is always the one to get shafted.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
idk, but even if it were not Samsungs fault....
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/13/verizon-wireless-and-htc-most-eager-to-provide-android-2-2-updat/
Take it with a grain of salt. But it sounds mildly legit.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=913045
edit: actually i call b.s.
whiteguypl said:
edit: actually i call b.s.
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Why? I have no firm opinion one way or the other, but just saying "bull****" really doesn't mean much unless you're playing the card game.
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
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Open source doesn't mean free.
I'm inclined to believe it. It makes more sense than trying to say they have been testing it for months. I've had my captivate for 6 months, almost 5 of them running FroYo thanks to the awesome devs here. Has the froyo always been stable and fast? No. But the devs don't work for Samsung with all the resouces, they are doing it in their spare time. I would bet Samsung had a fairly stable, almost complete version of FroYo ready before the phone released.
I am really getting tempted by the Atrix, apart from the awesome hardware and webtop app, Motorola devices get updates. But, they sound harder to flash custom ROMs, so its a give and take. Based on what I saw on the CES coverage, going with only official software may not be so bad.
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA App
Makes no sense. Regardless if Samsung charges for feature updates or not, terms of the upgrades would have been set between carrier and Samsung prior to the first handset even being made. Thus outside of any major surprises (which there are none here) the carrier knows from day one what upgrades will be offered, when and at what cost. It's not like Samsung turned around weeks after the devices shipped and said, "Hey. That Froyo upgrade is gonna cost ya, buddy!" That would have been known long before contacts were signed.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
Even if thus is true, both AT&T and Samsung have all ready made too many mistakes. Both will lose some business. Yes it won't be enough to hurt either but maybe all the pestering will make them rethink their business models. Probably not. My last Samschmuck phone on AT&T for sure.
Sent from a phone somewhere in the universe
ianwood said:
Makes no sense. Regardless if Samsung charges for feature updates or not, terms of the upgrades would have been set between carrier and Samsung prior to the first handset even being made. Thus outside of any major surprises (which there are none here) the carrier knows from day one what upgrades will be offered, when and at what cost. It's not like Samsung turned around weeks after the devices shipped and said, "Hey. That Froyo upgrade is gonna cost ya, buddy!" That would have been known long before contacts were signed.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
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This is the same point I tried to make on the thread. While Samsung may have been the ones to state that Froyo would come to Galaxy S, it may be that the carrier(s) decided to balk on the 2.2 update due to extra cost as probably stipulated by whatever contract they negotiated with Samsung.
If Froyo is already on Canadian carriers' devices (officially) why not U.S. carriers. Something reeks here.
While Samsung should have kept their mouths shut about the update, I'm sure a part is being played by the American carriers here.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
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You are mixing up open source with free software. Ask Richard Stallman the difference
Also, I would imagine that they would not be paying Samsung for the software itself but more so the software development to tailor it to the carriers needs.
This sounds good in theory, but I think it has holes.
this would be the case for all phones on all carriers, but it isn't the same situation.
iphone updates are coming out all the time. With at&t subsidized out the butt on the iphone, I fail to believe they osu for all those updates.
I had a samsung blackjCk, and we went through the same thing with winmo, meanwhile other at&t phones got the updates.
Id have to say honestly in my personal opinion based from facts from an inside source... At&t is so obsessed with the iphone anything that costs them money or time that doesn't increase profits is going to be set on the backburner... Att has a time of year called "Iphone season" where they push the new versions and updates of the iphone to customers.... Seeing as how froyo itself was already released for almost every device on OTHER carriers and att has yet to push a single update aside from the eclaire update i doubt it will ever be coming.
Not to mention if anyone has noticed att removed ALOT of stuff from the captivates before they were able to ship them to customers... for example the third party apk allow button is completely gone from the stock phones due to att and their restrictions and the market having apps that just don't show up becuase of the way att wants to now start locking down phones like apple. (not trying to bash anyone or brands but from what ive seen from someone who loves to customize and believe anything i pay for is mine and i should be able to do as i wish with said product that's how it is in my eyes)
I think that since they have the rage over the iphones (another reason they try to sell them harder then any other phone is because of the "vast amount of accessories" ) it feels like they fell on the band wagon of the craze instead of actually worrying about ALL of their customers. It just seems like since iphone updates are pushed to phone and att doesnt have to deal with them, not to mention if the phone messes up it goes to an apple store and not att.
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released. As to the truth behind this, anyones guess is as good as mine. Just seems funny how No att phones have gotten the froyo update unless they've (the customer) installed it themselves.
I wouldn't be looking forward to any updates from what i've seen on my end.
A.VOID said:
This sounds good in theory, but I think it has holes.
this would be the case for all phones on all carriers, but it isn't the same situation.
iphone updates are coming out all the time. With at&t subsidized out the butt on the iphone, I fail to believe they osu for all those updates.
I had a samsung blackjCk, and we went through the same thing with winmo, meanwhile other at&t phones got the updates.
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AT&T has nothing to do with iPhone updates. Matter of fact, AT&T has nothing to do with iPhones at all, except sell them. All iPhone updates are done through iTunes and all iPhone support is handled by Apple. This is not a good comparison.
Even comparing WinMo doesn't really work. I had a Wizard on AT&T, and there was exactly one firmware update, even though there were other versions that were available later. Plus, Windows is not free and not based on open source code. So, carriers would expect to pay for updates with closed source operating systems.
Xaviorin said:
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released.
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If that were true, then Apple and AT&T would be facing some serious litigation. This is similar to the deals that Intel made with computer manufacturers, forcing them to slow leak AMD sales in order to sell more Intel chips. Intel paid quite a hefty fine and suffered a serious PR black eye. That type of practice stifles competition and is very, very illegal. So, I doubt that Apple and AT&T would even consider doing that.
Xaviorin said:
Id have to say honestly in my personal opinion based from facts from an inside source... At&t is so obsessed with the iphone anything that costs them money or time that doesn't increase profits is going to be set on the backburner... Att has a time of year called "Iphone season" where they push the new versions and updates of the iphone to customers.... Seeing as how froyo itself was already released for almost every device on OTHER carriers and att has yet to push a single update aside from the eclaire update i doubt it will ever be coming.
Not to mention if anyone has noticed att removed ALOT of stuff from the captivates before they were able to ship them to customers... for example the third party apk allow button is completely gone from the stock phones due to att and their restrictions and the market having apps that just don't show up becuase of the way att wants to now start locking down phones like apple. (not trying to bash anyone or brands but from what ive seen from someone who loves to customize and believe anything i pay for is mine and i should be able to do as i wish with said product that's how it is in my eyes)
I think that since they have the rage over the iphones (another reason they try to sell them harder then any other phone is because of the "vast amount of accessories" ) it feels like they fell on the band wagon of the craze instead of actually worrying about ALL of their customers. It just seems like since iphone updates are pushed to phone and att doesnt have to deal with them, not to mention if the phone messes up it goes to an apple store and not att.
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released. As to the truth behind this, anyones guess is as good as mine. Just seems funny how No att phones have gotten the froyo update unless they've (the customer) installed it themselves.
I wouldn't be looking forward to any updates from what i've seen on my end.
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Conspiracy theory much? Like someone said, your theories border on anti-competitive in practice. AT&T is also not so obsessed with the iPhone given how much they've diversified their smartphone portfolio in the past 9 months (+2 WebOS devices, +2 BlackBerrys, +3 Windows Phones, +5 Android devices).
I'm usually skeptical about these things, but this is about the only rumor that makes sense.
For those comparing it to the iphone, its like comparing oranges to apples. Apple pretty much takes care of everything on their side.At&t just peddles their product. Apple has a 400 person call center just for the iphone, next door to where I work.
Apple makes the hardware and creates the OS.
Samsung just makes hardware which is a good thing considering how bad their software engineers are at coding.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I'm more in the conspiracy theory side
Don't trust everything you read.
Thing about it deeply, what is more likely:
A Sammy employee risked his job, created an account just to create this post, and tell us the truth about the updates and how bad his employer is? seriously? What did he gain by doing this post? peace of mind? can he go to sleep now that he has revealed the truth of the US-only updates? Does really the Samsung employees care this much for only the US based users? This smells, and bad.
Now lets look at the conspiracy side. An AT&T employee notices our frustration against them. They see that seem to be more frustrated people are the non tech-savvy ones; that we got to admit they are more than us and represent a big number for them. On the other hand I bet they receive a gazillion calls from you guys on these subject.
Wouldn't be more likely than AT&T representative created that post to wash their hands and pass the blame to sammy? Isn't them who released a restricted phone and made a deal with Samsung saying that they will be in charge of this phone's updates? Samsungs cost in releasing an update of a phone that is almost equal to 6 other phones they released is null; whereas AT&T cost in updating their crap is high. Don't be blind. Carriers are the new tyrants. They will do anything in their power to get more money. If you could see what they are able to do in countries like mine you wont even doubt this. In my country of such a deal is made you can forget that you will ever get updates. There even is a carrier that, after 4 months passed that you have purchased a motorola's android based phone, charges you 10 uss monthly for MOTO BLUR, and this was written in the small print of the contract... seriously... I've seen carriers cancel their users contracts, saying they requested that, to bill them their contract-cancelation fee...
I could go on with this for pages... I've witnessed carriers lying, deceiving, and even more right in the people's face. If you want to check this, and know some spanish or use translators, just google "Claro hijos de puta" (sons of a...) or "claro estafa" (scam); both searches give more than 3 million results, and you wont imagine what you might find inside those pages...
This whole thing smells badly. And if I had to bet, I would say that post was made by a carrier to buy them time, or even to start making up an excuse so they wont ever release an update... after all, they would be the only ones that would benefit from such events...
I'm through waiting
This story was the final straw for me, whether it's true or not. I am tired of the drama and am no longer waiting for AT&T and/or Samsung to deliver what AT&T told me would happen when I bought the phone. If AT&T store staff said something incorrect it was corporate's fault for not guiding their staff correctly. I was told shortly Froyo was coming, but it never came. Samsung said on Twitter/Facebook we all would have Froyo last year. There is no excuse for what they have done, none. I've waded through the myriad of 3rd party ROMs and was leery of the leaked Froyo ones due to everyone seemed to have an issue here or there. The 9000 ROMs sounded exciting but came with issues I didn't want. I just want a working GPS and a stable phone, running Froyo, what I thought I was getting last summer.
Now that Rogers released a North American ROM and the talented coders have seized upon it, we seem to be approaching a new level of stability with Froyo. After reading up on the various Rogers ROM based images I installed Cognition (donation coming later tonight) and after 30 minutes of playing around, I am home with Froyo now. I am beyond tired of waiting for AT&T and/or Samsung to do the honorable thing for they are not honorable companies. I doubt another Samsung will grace my pocket and yet maybe it will be the 3rd party coders that will ultimately deliver what I have waited patiently for, for months. Wouldn't it be a wonderful environment if Samsung would just release the source to everything and let those out here, those infinitely more talented than Samsung staff, have access to the code they need to work pure magic.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
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polarbee said:
Open source doesn't mean free.
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Open source comes under GPL license. This isn't the one that is of cost, but the efforts involved in packing for a device, its extensive testing is what is costly.
In the most simplest of terms, the following people would be involved:
Business Team x 3 people
Development Team x 6 people
Testing/QA Team x 10 people
To take care of these people:
Project Manager x 1 person
Team Leads x 3 people (1 for each team)
Taking this to 23 people, to say the least.
On an average, if we pay each person say $ 50k for 6 months effort, it would be $ 50,000 x 23 = $ 1,150,000 i.e., $ 1.15 millions for 6 months.
Now see, this is only the minimal scale. For a phone so wide spread, I would assume a team of atleast 50 where managers charge more than 100-200k a year.
Now u see why Samsung doesn't wish to put this kind of money into a phone already sold, and is looking into marketing newer phones.
I think its all hoopla.
This "leak" of sensitive information on one of many android forums is only going to reach the eyes of a hand full of readers.
We (the brave souls wanting new updates for our gadgets and willing to hack them to get it) are very few in numbers compared to the vast amounts of consumers who own this phone, and usually don't give a hoot about a new update/upgrade for their phones ROM, IF they even know what the heck it is. They only care that their calls and texts go through, and they can browse the web on their lunch break.
The ONLY issue that most would care about is the GPS issues we have had. And I bet that AT&T, and Samsung have both received tens of thousands of customer complaints regarding Mr. Joe Average not being able to find his way on his family vacation. Again, we are but a small number compared to that. I would think that alone would motivate something to happen, at least an OTA update to fix the GPS issues. Nope.
So other than an intellectual debate on "why haves", and "why have nots" on a forum like this, there is nothing else this message could possibly accomplish.
The above thread, and this one will slowly slide down the thread list and be forgotten and nothing else will change.
The Bottom Line
Rumors aside, if it doesn't sell more phones, minutes or data plans and it can be avoided without seriously upsetting customers, they won't bother. Outside of our merry band of flash-a-holics, what percent of Captivate owners even know what Froyo is or care?
Also, judging by the JH7 OTA debacle, Samsung's OTA upgrade capability is decidedly unreliable. I'd bet that caused a mountain of returns. AT&T HATES returns!!! Costs them a fortune. The cost of paying Samsung for a Froyo upgrade is a drop in the bucket by comparison. So a bad OTA system is worse than none at all. If AT&T can get away with avoiding it, they will.
I think our best hope is to make A LOT of noise! Complain to Samsung, AT&T and Google. Do it publicly on FB, Twitter, etc. Do it often. A small vocal group of XDA readers can probably stir up a decent amount of attention at AT&T if they coordinated their efforts.
Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?
Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.
They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium
If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.
thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
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Click to collapse
If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.
It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".
You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.
Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium
Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!
How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser
MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
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Click to collapse
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
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Click to collapse
Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.
thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.
MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.
It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."
thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...hone-maker-essential-is-said-to-consider-sale
shocker
We'll...
Like the stages of grief, I was initially frustrated and upset. After thinking about it for about 3 minutes, just about every possession I own is for sale, for the right price. Go get it Andy!
Kinda sad, was tempted to buy a ph-2. But now I'm happy I'll get a chance to buy a ph-1 when they go on fire sale. It will fit right in with my nextbit Robin.
this was a response from Essential that Android Police received
An official Essential spokesperson responded to our request for comment. Here's what we got:
"We always have multiple products in development at the same time and we embrace canceling some in favor of the ones we think will be bigger hits. We are putting all of our efforts towards our future, game-changing products, which include mobile and home products."
Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk
Damm! I've been so looking forward to the new phone! I'm sure it would have been a much bigger success.
(another article about it, based on Bloomberg report https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/24/...ncels-phone-development-considers-sale-report )
So do I buy another backup one as there really doesn't seem to be an alternative.
IronRoo said:
Damm! I've been so looking forward to the new phone! I'm sure it would have been a much bigger success.
(another article about it, based on Bloomberg report https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/24/...ncels-phone-development-considers-sale-report )
So do I buy another backup one as there really doesn't seem to be an alternative.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah.. all the phone needs is oled screen and it would be perfect.. though the lcd is very good
Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk
Do you think we'll still get continued support for the PH-1, as getting the security updates quick, and getting updated to the official release of android p?
Thomas Cloutier said:
Do you think we'll still get continued support for the PH-1, as getting the security updates quick, and getting updated to the official release of android p?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was just wondering that myself.. let's hope the support continues for years to come. I have no plans to upgrade. Love my PH-1
I would not count on continued support for very long. You can’t hardly get decent long term support from phone companies that stay in business...
Sad day really. Especially the cancellation of the phone. I really believed the second one was going to get it right. I only had two problems with the phone: Low light performance of the cameras and poor signal strength (mostly indoors)
I don't think it would have been hard to improve in those areas for their next phone. He is giving up to easy.
P.S. won't be buying their other products if this is how it's going to go.
Maybe we need a petition started to give him more confidence.
It is sad, the Essential Phone had such promise. But sometimes in business "Promises" won't pay the staff or the bills. I was looking forward to PH-2, but now I am, I can't believe I am saying this, looking at the iPhone X.
I have use Android phones ,Nexis< from the beginning. Nexus left us in favor of the extremely expensive and hamstrung Pixel, I was really hoping Essential would fill that void, the one thing is the universe is constant "Apple" seems to always keep thing consistent.
Damn I need to call my therapist, its just a fuc____g phone...
Oh no. That's bad news. What a beautiful phone and not being continued.
First my wonderful Lumia, now the Essential.... Sometimes you wonder what it takes to break into this market.
oldman_58 said:
It is sad, the Essential Phone had such promise. But sometimes in business "Promises" won't pay the staff or the bills. I was looking forward to PH-2, but now I am, I can't believe I am saying this, looking at the iPhone X.
I have use Android phones ,Nexis< from the beginning. Nexus left us in favor of the extremely expensive and hamstrung Pixel, I was really hoping Essential would fill that void, the one thing is the universe is constant "Apple" seems to always keep thing consistent.
Damn I need to call my therapist, its just a fuc____g phone...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the Essential and iPhone X. When it comes to size I constantly confuse the two of them. The Essential phone was the first Android device that felt like Apple quality to me. Can’t go wrong with either one.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Damn, that really sux. This was the best phone I ever owned
sam2c said:
Damn, that really sux. This was the best phone I ever owned
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Click to collapse
well, good thing for now is that we still own the best phone we ever owned.
derausgewanderte said:
Oh no. That's bad news. What a beautiful phone and not being continued.
First my wonderful Lumia, now the Essential.... Sometimes you wonder what it takes to break into this market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You jinxed it!
Don't buy a OnePlus 6 please...
Jk
Bummed on this one for sure. I've been impressed enough with this phone and especially the support to have considered replacing my wife's aging Nexus 5X with the second generation one (assuming the camera was better than the ph-1).
this feels exactly like what happened to me when Google sold Motorola soon after I bought my 2013 Moto X, which is still my all time fav phone. Google was supporting it (we got KitKat FAST) and then BAM the support was yanked out when the company got sold. I was starting to like this phone almost as much.
SHOCKKR said:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...hone-maker-essential-is-said-to-consider-sale
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Click to collapse
Rumors.
From Andy:
"We always have multiple products in development at the same time and we embrace canceling some in favor of the ones we think will be bigger hits. We are putting all of our efforts towards our future, game-changing products, which include mobile and home products."
Where does that say the company is closing or that PH-2 is dead?
The article is from a confidential source.
tech_head said:
Rumors.
From Andy:
"We always have multiple products in development at the same time and we embrace canceling some in favor of the ones we think will be bigger hits. We are putting all of our efforts towards our future, game-changing products, which include mobile and home products."
Where does that say the company is closing or that PH-2 is dead?
The article is from a confidential source.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cmon dude he posted it as a response to the articles
"we embrace canceling some in favor of the ones we think will be bigger hits."
I think that is pretty clear, unless you're being intentionally obtuse.