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[Q] Can't boot on custom roms

Hey,
I recently unlocked my phone using HTCDev.com and rooted it.
At first I couldn't get CWM Recovery on it using ROMManager (even though Rommanager said it was installed it loaded to the default recovery) but I got it on there using adb.
Now when I try to flash any Rom it'll just get stuck on the white screen with green HTC text.
When I restore to my backup of the default rom it'll just boot as normal.
I have HBoot 2.00.0002 (Sense 3.0 update) S-ON (unlocked).
I tried flashing it using Rommanager, CWMRecovery, manually wiping the Cache, Data and Dalvik using CWM, I tried flashing in CWM and I tried both MIUI and Cyanogenmod.
Anyone knows what I'm doing wrong?

RichieHeijmans said:
Hey,
I recently unlocked my phone using HTCDev.com and rooted it.
At first I couldn't get CWM Recovery on it using ROMManager (even though Rommanager said it was installed it loaded to the default recovery) but I got it on there using adb.
Now when I try to flash any Rom it'll just get stuck on the white screen with green HTC text.
When I restore to my backup of the default rom it'll just boot as normal.
I have HBoot 2.00.0002 (Sense 3.0 update) S-ON (unlocked).
I tried flashing it using Rommanager, CWMRecovery, manually wiping the Cache, Data and Dalvik using CWM, I tried flashing in CWM and I tried both MIUI and Cyanogenmod.
Anyone knows what I'm doing wrong?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. Unlocking with htcdev leaves your device S-ON, and stops the rom installers from flashing boot.img. So you're left with custom rom, and stock 3.0 kernel. Might work with sense 3.0, but flash any 3.5 rom and you're stuck at boot.
You need to:
- open the custom rom and extract boot.img
- flash the custom rom by the usual way
- flash boot.img manually using fastboot (look for instructions here in xda)
- and....
- ...
- wait for it...
- ...
- search first before you start a new thread. This has been answered many times here in this sub-forum.
Cheers

Or at least look in the index (see the last link at end of my Sig) this is covered by one of the guides
Swyped from my Desire S using XDA Premium

Hi!
I just flashed CyanogenMod 7.1 ROM, and then flashed it's boot.img with "fastboot flash boot" and that worked well! But i did'n like that rom, so i restored Hyperion ROM in cwm recorvery and it did stuck on the htc -logo. I thought that may be the CyanogenMod boot images fault, and i flashed Hyperions boot image and then it booted normally!
So, until I get my phone S-Off(now unlocked via htcdev) do I need always flash a new boot image if I dont come from ROM wich have same kernel that the ROM what I'm flashing?
Sorry for my english!

TooByAas said:
Hi!
I just flashed CyanogenMod 7.1 ROM, and then flashed it's boot.img with "fastboot flash boot" and that worked well! But i did'n like that rom, so i restored Hyperion ROM in cwm recorvery and it did stuck on the htc -logo. I thought that may be the CyanogenMod boot images fault, and i flashed Hyperions boot image and then it booted normally!
So, until I get my phone S-Off(now unlocked via htcdev) do I need always flash a new boot image if I dont come from ROM wich have same kernel that the ROM what I'm flashing?
Sorry for my english!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have summed it up well. The answer is Yes till you get s-off.
Sent from my HTC Desire S using XDA App

[Q] problem flashing ICS roms

I'm having problems flashing my Desire S with ICS based roms. GB roms work fine, but any ICS rom I flash gets stuck on boot on a lit up black screen. I have tried a variety of roms, flashed both on CWM and 4EXT but the issue persists. Is there some kind of special procedure for ICS roms ?

Did you
1. Wipe all partitions except SD
2. Wipe dalvik + cache
Edit : And the procedures same for flashing ics and gb roms, unless the OP specifically tells you to do otherwise

I did all possible wipes and It's still the same. Any more ideas ?

tomkow4 said:
I did all possible wipes and It's still the same. Any more ideas ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
did u u unlock with HTCDEV.com ? if u did just flash the boot.img inside the rom you want if u never then either the rom takes a long time to boot or your not doing the wipe properly
give me some specs of your phone

Ok, I'll run through my process. I did unlock my phone via HTCDEV, then rooted it via SuperOneClick (meaning I still have HBoot 2.00.0002 and S-ON), then flashed it by flashboot with CWM, now I have 4EXT. What I always did whas do a wipe data/factory reset and flashed. Now inspired by vodka69er I did that and clear dalvik, cache, format all but sd - and then flashed - still the same.

tomkow4 said:
Ok, I'll run through my process. I did unlock my phone via HTCDEV, then rooted it via SuperOneClick (meaning I still have HBoot 2.00.0002 and S-ON), then flashed it by flashboot with CWM, now I have 4EXT. What I always did whas do a wipe data/factory reset and flashed. Now inspired by vodka69er I did that and clear dalvik, cache, format all but sd - and then flashed - still the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you unlocked via htcdev you need to extract the boot.img from your desired ROM. After flashing the ROM you need to flash the boot.img manually via adb. You have to do this each time you flash a new ROM.
Sent by my fingers to your head.

He's been able to flash the gb based roms , only trouble with the ics ones. That means he already knows to flash the boot img separately(unlocked with htcdev) or am I missing something

Vodka69er said:
He's been able to flash the gb based roms , only trouble with the ics ones. That means he already knows to flash the boot img separately(unlocked with htcdev) or am I missing something
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. Exactly. I mean I have a MIUI GB rom so, I guess it's not about flashing a rom but trouble with ICS ones. So I figured that those must have something different about them or have a specific prerequisite. Others have flashed their D S's, so I'm kind of lost.

Can you post what you see on your bootloader
Sent from a Desire S waiting for Kernel 3. WAKE UP HTC!!!!

*** UNLOCKED ***
SAGA PVT SHIP S-ON RL
HBOOT - 2.00.0002
Radio - 3822.10.08.04_M
eMMC - boot
Aug 22 2011, 15:22:13

@op
I know that this is covering old ground, but I've not seen an actual answer
Have you ever used 'fastboot flash boot NAME.IMG' command?
Swyped from my DesireS

http://www.androidauthority.com/desire-s-root-s-off-hboot-2-00-0002-superoneclick-74470/ - this is the guide I followed.
On a side note, I did a full wipe of everything I could and still no luck with ICS roms. I think I'll leave it alone.

You still didn't answer the question that I asked in the above post, the guide that you have doesn't cater for separately flashing the boot , which is what you need to do. The guide only tells you gore to instal recovery and root
Which (as people have been saying) means that i suspect that your ICS installs have no kernels and therefore don't/can't boot
What ROM are you running now?
As after wiping all nothing should boot, unless CWM wipe all doesn't wipe boot?
Swyped from my DesireS

ben_pyett said:
You still didn't answer the question that I asked in the above post, the guide that you have doesn't cater for separately flashing the boot , which is what you need to do. The guide only tells you gore to instal recovery and root
Which (as people have been saying) means that i suspect that your ICS installs have no kernels and therefore don't/can't boot
What ROM are you running now?
As after wiping all nothing should boot, unless CWM wipe all doesn't wipe boot?
Swyped from my DesireS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To answer directly - I don't remeber/don't think so. But honestly didn't care much since my roms ran. Right now I'm on MIUI.
But the remark on the kernel got me thinking - I don't really know how to approach this, should I find some kernel and flash it?

On your pc you need to open the ICS ROM zip file and take out a file called boot.img
After flashing the Rom you must then use the fastboot command from your PC, as you did when you flashed your recovery.
You must then issue the command 'fastboot flash boot boot.img'
see below for the full instructions
HappyEmu said:
If you unzip your ROM's Zip-file (the one you want to flash, you'll find a file called "boot.img". Move it into the same folder as your adb and fastboot executables (Android SDK) and flash it using fastboot.
To be a little more specific:
1. Extract boot.img from ICS rom zip file and move it in the same folder as your fastboot.exe (Android SDK) on your PC
2. Flash the ICS Rom as usual from recovery (don't forget to first perform the full wipe/format including the boot partition)
3. Boot into fastboot mode, connect your phone to your PC and flash boot.img using fastboot
Code:
fastboot flash boot $pathToYourBootIMG\boot.img
4. Reboot
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Swyped from my DesireS

Your GB room worked as they were running on the stock kernel
ICS won't work this way.
As Ben has mentioned you need to flash the boot.img
Sent from a Desire S waiting for Kernel 3. WAKE UP HTC!!!!

eyahl said:
If you unlocked via htcdev you need to extract the boot.img from your desired ROM. After flashing the ROM you need to flash the boot.img manually via adb. You have to do this each time you flash a new ROM.
Sent by my fingers to your head.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
*Bump*
Sent by my fingers to your head.

suku_patel_22 said:
Your GB room worked as they were running on the stock kernel
ICS won't work this way.
As Ben has mentioned you need to flash the boot.img
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
4EXT seems to flash the kernel upon installation of specific roms, but I still did it manually and ... nothing. It still goes into a coma upon boot. Maybe I'll do a video of what I'm doing when I get back from work, cause now I'm having problems with some other roms - they freeze on bootscreen. Maybe it has something to do with my phone being S-ON?

tomkow4 said:
4EXT seems to flash the kernel upon installation of specific roms, but I still did it manually and ... nothing. It still goes into a coma upon boot. Maybe I'll do a video of what I'm doing when I get back from work, cause now I'm having problems with some other roms - they freeze on bootscreen. Maybe it has something to do with my phone being S-ON?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I suspect that you're suffering the problem on other ROMS now as you're wiping the boot partition and therefore have no kernel.
[Q] How long do you wait on boot? you must be patient as first boot can take a while (although not longer than 10minutes).
A video would be a great way of showing the problem...Try to capture everything....
Your bootloader screen....
All the partition wipes
The Rom flash
The fastboot boot.img flash
and then what happens after...

Kind of noobish on my end, but as I was making the video - and did everything according to protocol just as earlier - it worked . I flashed BlackICE 5.5. Christ. Thanks anyway for the patience guys (I assume )

[S4] Flashing from CM10 to TrickDroid 7.1 does not work

Hey Guys,
yesterday I wanted to revert my ROM from CM10 to TrickDroid 7.1. In TWRP 2.2.1 I wiped caches and did a factory reset and then flashed TD 7.1 following torxx's instructions (wipe, install ROM, flash boot.img with his boot flash script, let the ROM boot). After the reboot the phone hang. The startup sound came through but then no further action for about 7 Minutes.
Was that too little time waiting? Or is there any other issue interfering the boot process after reverting from Android 4.1.1 to 4.0.4 Sense?
If anyone can help is much appreciated. Even if I look stupid afterwords
Burkhard

herzbert said:
Hey Guys,
yesterday I wanted to revert my ROM from CM10 to TrickDroid 7.1. In TWRP 2.2.1 I wiped caches and did a factory reset and then flashed TD 7.1 following torxx's instructions (wipe, install ROM, flash boot.img with his boot flash script, let the ROM boot). After the reboot the phone hang. The startup sound came through but then no further action for about 7 Minutes.
Was that too little time waiting? Or is there any other issue interfering the boot process after reverting from Android 4.1.1 to 4.0.4 Sense?
If anyone can help is much appreciated. Even if I look stupid afterwords
Burkhard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Perhaps your hboot does not allow flashing or boot.img? Have you tried the fastboot method of flashing boot.img? How about reverting to a nandroid of a sense based ROM, then flashing TD?

el_smurfo said:
Perhaps your hboot does not allow flashing or boot.img? Have you tried the fastboot method of flashing boot.img? How about reverting to a nandroid of a sense based ROM, then flashing TD?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Prior to CM10 I was on latest stock ROM. Before that I had custom ROMs. HBoot on my phone after the OTA update is 1.14. Flashing the boot image of CM10 was no problem.
In order to use the phone I reinstalled CM10 and it works.
The boot images were flashed within fastboot. I do not know any other way to flash a boot image.
I dont have a nandroid backup.

Checked MD5?

torxx said:
Checked MD5?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They correspond.
If nothing else helps I will try to install the latest RUU and then flash a ROM. But I wanna circumvent the relock and unlock procedure.
Btw: Did anybody notice that the unlock code changes after an update of HBoot? Nobody mentioned that when the new base was released.

Same here... But fine now
herzbert said:
They correspond.
If nothing else helps I will try to install the latest RUU and then flash a ROM. But I wanna circumvent the relock and unlock procedure.
Btw: Did anybody notice that the unlock code changes after an update of HBoot? Nobody mentioned that when the new base was released.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey there,
I was having the same problems as you messioned. I flashed the boot.img through fastboot myself and some how it then worked Did not have an problems with flashing the boot.img before. But maybe its worth a try.

Of course you need to use fastboot!!

Did not try yet to flash the RUU. There was an update of CM10 yesterday. The heavy battery drain is gone with this update and there is no urgent need to go back to TrickDroid right now.

herzbert said:
Prior to CM10 I was on latest stock ROM. Before that I had custom ROMs. HBoot on my phone after the OTA update is 1.14. Flashing the boot image of CM10 was no problem.
In order to use the phone I reinstalled CM10 and it works.
The boot images were flashed within fastboot. I do not know any other way to flash a boot image.
I dont have a nandroid backup.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HBoot 1.14 is the problem. Anything above 1.09 needs special steps to flash unlike simply flashing with twrp as with 1.09 and below.
Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2

LikeaG2root said:
HBoot 1.14 is the problem. Anything above 1.09 needs special steps to flash unlike simply flashing with twrp as with 1.09 and below.
Alright, so, what are these special steps? Can you tell? If its not flashing the within recovery and push the boot.img via fastboot to the phone I would be very interested. My previous HBoot version was 1.13. Flashing ROMs was never a big deal. Also not going to CM9 and back to sense based ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I am on hboot 1.14 and it worked via fastboot. Like you mentioned yourself you reinstalled CM10 and it booted, therefore your previous flash of the boot.img didn't work. So just flash the boot.img via bootloader and fastboot and you should be good...

HighRoIIer said:
I am on hboot 1.14 and it worked via fastboot. Like you mentioned yourself you reinstalled CM10 and it booted, therefore your previous flash of the boot.img didn't work. So just flash the boot.img via bootloader and fastboot and you should be good...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did also flash the boot.img via fastboot. Why do you say that anyway? Is there another method to flash a boot.img?

you didn't mention wiping System as part of the full wipe--needs done

Partially solved
rugmankc said:
you didn't mention wiping System as part of the full wipe--needs done
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, I did not mention it because system is wiped by TWRP during flashing the ROM. So there was no need to wipe it seperately. But maybe my mistake was not to wipe data and the new "asec" folder messed things up.
I'll never know because yesterday I did a complete wipe including the SDCard. Afterwards I was able to install TrickDroid flawlessly.
Thank you all for your efforts.

Viper XL and boot.img

Hey guys I just wanna to check and make sure I'm doing everything right before I flash cause I don't need anymore paperweights
1.I have successfully unlocked my bootloader and installed twrp recovery and rooted.
2. Now I want to back up my entire setup: rom, apps, setting, data, everything so that if I ever want to return to stock then I can. I have booted into twrp and ran backup and selected all options. Is that how you perform a nandroid backup in twrp or is there more to it?
3. I want to install team venom viper xl rom. Do I have to first flash boot.img first or is the kernel the same in stock and viper xl so that isn't necessary? Do I have to do I factory reset first or what?
I'm still new to this stuff so please bear with me. Thank for all your help!!

ImagioX1 said:
Hey guys I just wanna to check and make sure I'm doing everything right before I flash cause I don't need anymore paperweights
1.I have successfully unlocked my bootloader and installed twrp recovery and rooted.
2. Now I want to back up my entire setup: rom, apps, setting, data, everything so that if I ever want to return to stock then I can. I have booted into twrp and ran backup and selected all options. Is that how you perform a nandroid backup in twrp or is there more to it?
3. I want to install team venom viper xl rom. Do I have to first flash boot.img first or is the kernel the same in stock and viper xl so that isn't necessary? Do I have to do I factory reset first or what?
I'm still new to this stuff so please bear with me. Thank for all your help!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wipe flash Rom flash boot IMG sit back enjoy

ImagioX1 said:
Hey guys I just wanna to check and make sure I'm doing everything right before I flash cause I don't need anymore paperweights
1.I have successfully unlocked my bootloader and installed twrp recovery and rooted.
2. Now I want to back up my entire setup: rom, apps, setting, data, everything so that if I ever want to return to stock then I can. I have booted into twrp and ran backup and selected all options. Is that how you perform a nandroid backup in twrp or is there more to it?
3. I want to install team venom viper xl rom. Do I have to first flash boot.img first or is the kernel the same in stock and viper xl so that isn't necessary? Do I have to do I factory reset first or what?
I'm still new to this stuff so please bear with me. Thank for all your help!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Different kernel. it is using the 2.41 RUU. So go ahead and flash the boot.img
Here's what you should do for any new ROM with a different kernel.
Wipe System
Factory Reset
Flash boot.img
Flash the ROM
flash gapps (if AOSP based)
reboot and have fun
When doing a nandroid backup, it is only necessary to backup
System
Data
Boot

Ok thanks for your response but I'm still a little confused. First did I back up my current rom properly so that I can return to it later on? Secondly does viper and boot img have to be flashed or can they be installed from sdcard via twrp? If they have to be flashed whats the fastboot command.?

ImagioX1 said:
Ok thanks for your response but I'm still a little confused. First did I back up my current rom properly so that I can return to it later on? Secondly does viper and boot img have to be flashed or can they be installed from sdcard via twrp? If they have to be flashed whats the fastboot command.?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You backed up fine, it just takes up a little more space.
You have to extract the boot.img from the ROM and put it in the same folder as fastboot.exe
open command prompt, and navigate to the folder fasboot.exe is in and do the following command
fasboot flash boot boot.img
If it gets stuck at waiting for device, reboot into your bootloader, boot into fastboot from there. and then try again.

ImagioX1 said:
Ok thanks for your response but I'm still a little confused. First did I back up my current rom properly so that I can return to it later on? Secondly does viper and boot img have to be flashed or can they be installed from sdcard via twrp? If they have to be flashed whats the fastboot command.?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Viper is the Rom u flash it from twrp it's. azip file that's fkashable so make it easy and flash viper there and than flash the boot IMG from fastboot the command is all over the forums I thinks it fastnoot flash boot.img

don't be confused. read.
you always have to flash boot.img in fastboot "fastboot flash boot boot.img" then flash the zip in twrp make sure to wipe, and don't download international roms. you still have to flash the boot.img from your backed up rom.
like a hundred threads asking the same stuff because no one wants to read

DvineLord said:
don't be confused. read.
you always have to flash boot.img in fastboot "fastboot flash boot boot.img" then flash the zip in twrp make sure to wipe, and don't download international roms. you still have to flash the boot.img from your backed up rom.
like a hundred threads asking the same stuff because no one wants to read
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I did read. I saw that if you have the same kernel as that of the rom you're flashing you don't have to flash boot.img. So I asked to see if stock and viper have the same kernel. I don't want to flash anything that will brick my phone.
Now one more question if you don't mind answering. I also saw that you can't downgrade RUU. So if viper is based on 2.41 RUU and stock is 2.20 RUU then will I be able to go stock after flashing viper?
I really do appreciate yalls help. i would be where I am if it weren't for you.

ImagioX1 said:
I'm sorry but I did read. I saw that if you have the same kernel as that of the rom you're flashing you don't have to flash boot.img. So I asked to see if stock and viper have the same kernel. I don't want to flash anything that will brick my phone.
Now one more question if you don't mind answering. I also saw that you can't downgrade RUU. So if viper is based on 2.41 RUU and stock is 2.20 RUU then will I be able to go stock after flashing viper?
I really do appreciate yalls help. i would be where I am if it weren't for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. Just wipe you system and do a factory reset , and flash the boot.IMG for 2.20 and then flash the Rom.
If you want true stock 2.20 then you will have to relock your bootloader and then run the 2.20 RUU. You would only want to do this if making a warranty claim or something. If you want stock rooted, then yes, do what I said above
Sent from my HTC One XL using xda app-developers app

absolutelygrim said:
Yes. Just wipe you system and do a factory reset , and flash the boot.IMG for 2.20 and then flash the Rom
Sent from my HTC One XL using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok got it. I do appreciate your help. Flashing now.

downgrading only refers to the ruu not the zipped roms. so you can't run 1.85 ruu after running 2.20 ruu/ota but you can still flash a rom based on 1.85.
if you are reflashing the same rom you don't have to reflash boot.img but if you are flashing a new rom then you need to flash boot.img. 7-zip will tell you the crc32 of files so you see tell if it's a different checksum.

Viper Xl's great. Seems to be slightly slower than stock on some task, but the lack of bloatware, and the extensive customization is worth it. Haven't found any bugs or nothing so far. If anyones familiar with viperxl though what is the last app in the app drawer? Its got a chinese name? When it loads it says Dolby Surround but all the writing is in chinese?

ImagioX1 said:
Viper Xl's great. Seems to be slightly slower than stock on some task, but the lack of bloatware, and the extensive customization is worth it. Haven't found any bugs or nothing so far. If anyones familiar with viperxl though what is the last app in the app drawer? Its got a chinese name? When it loads it says Dolby Surround but all the writing is in chinese?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's because you flashed the Voodoo mod, it's apart of the mod, theres a chinese part and a english one called "Dolby Digital" or "Dolby Surround"

When I flash ViperXL 3.1.0 JB do I need to flash a radio too? My phone has hboot 1.4 and software 2.2, so I understand that I cant flash radio with hboot 1.4? Does this mean I need to downgrade my hboot/software version?

CrossFire78 said:
When I flash ViperXL 3.1.0 JB do I need to flash a radio too? My phone has hboot 1.4 and software 2.2, so I understand that I cant flash radio with hboot 1.4? Does this mean I need to downgrade my hboot/software version?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most people have good luck w/out flashing another radio.

ronnie498 said:
Most people have good luck w/out flashing another radio.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm. Might there be a patch I'm missing out on? I just flashed one file -ViperXL 3.1.0 JB - Android File Host (692MB)
edit- Works now after another reinstall installed boot image first this time.

[Q] Please help

So I am stuck on a boot screen I followed the istruction of deleting system,dalvik,cache, factory reset. I installed the CM10 rom and Gapps yet it hangs for a really long time about 5-6 mins on the boot screen. Did I do something wrong>? I can mount the storage through TWRP and throw a different rom on.

bratten2121 said:
So I am stuck on a boot screen I followed the istruction of deleting system,dalvik,cache, factory reset. I installed the CM10 rom and Gapps yet it hangs for a really long time about 5-6 mins on the boot screen. Did I do something wrong>? I can mount the storage through TWRP and throw a different rom on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what h-boot are you ? you may need to fastboot the boot.img

Hboot-1.14.0002

do some searching i think you need to flash the boot.img

Do I have to flash one of these? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1694012 or will these not work because I have hboot 1.14? I do want to be able to flash CM10.

bratten2121 said:
Do I have to flash one of these? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1694012 or will these not work because I have hboot 1.14? I do want to be able to flash CM10.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you will be able to put CM10 on your device, you will just need to flash the kernel seperately. before you flash the ROM in your recovery, you will need to boot the phone to fastboot mode and run "fastboot flash boot boot.img" using the boot.img file extracted from the ROM you are flashing.
the thread you are linking to there are the radio files. You can flash those, but they aren't necessary for the ROM to work. They may improve your reception.

Thanks a lot! It booted up but cant get past setup services keeps force closing? SHould I first flash the kernel then install the rom?

bratten2121 said:
Thanks a lot! It booted up but cant get past setup services keeps force closing? SHould I first flash the kernel then install the rom?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it should work either way, maybe clear cache and dalvik again and see how you go?