Database Info

Captivate and 4G

Was reading in another thread (which was closed while I was writing a reply) that some people here might be confused around what 4G is and whether or not their Cappy can be upgraded to it.
First, the simple answer:
Your Cappy cannot be upgraded to 4G. Now or ever. It is possible that it could be upgraded to HSPA+ with the right software. But that is not 4G. 4G is a different radio access protocol running at different frequencies.
The longer answer:
The source of all this confusion is T-Mobile's marketing department who claim their HSPA+ network is 4G. 4G is not HSPA+ or anything like it. It is 3.5G. Much like GPRS and EDGE were 2.5G. LTE (the real 4G) is far superior to HSPA+ for several reasons regardless of the bandwidth claims. Mainly 4G will not suffer nearly as much from congestion like 3G HSPA / HSPA+. It is that same 3G congestion that motivated AT&T to turn off HSUPA on our phones. It's because AT&T's 3G network (UMTS, HSPA, and HSPA+) is already heavily congested in many markets.
Only posting this so people don't think they can get true 4G on their Cappy. It won't happen.

AT&T is also marketing their 4G service as HSPA+, with LTE technology entering their network late 2011.

bptba93 said:
AT&T is also marketing their 4G service as HSPA+, with LTE technology entering their network late 2011.
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Yes, they've started down that path as well. Just don't expect 4G speeds on any of these "4G" devices unless you're the only smartphone user for miles. I truly wonder what AT&T and eventually T-Mobile will call their LTE networks. 4G 2.0?

From AT&T:
Not all 4G networks are created equal. AT&T is the only carrier that will offer two layers of network technology delivering 4G speeds – HSPA+ and LTE.*
Why does that matter?
When combined with enhanced backhaul, our HSPA+ software upgrade is expected to deliver speeds up to 4x faster than ordinary mobile broadband. And we'll be evolving to even higher speeds with the planned initial launch of our LTE network in mid-2011. When you're traveling on our networks, you'll enjoy faster speeds and a smoother, more consistent mobile broadband experience overall.
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So is HSPA+ just a software upgrade with no hardware enhancements in the cellphones or towers?
I do understand the reasoning behind AT&T doing HSPA+ before LTE as it offers reasonably fast speeds in areas where LTE has not matured. If it is indeed only software based, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase from HSPA 7.2Mbps to pseudo "4G" HSPA+ 21Mbps (although these speeds are "up to") on the captivate. Will HSPA+ be up to 21Mbps right out of the gate?
My brother uses epic 4G on Sprint, and in areas of no 4G wimax, his 3G speeds are abysmal... Has sprint stopped upgrading their 3G and is only concentrating on the expansion of 4G?
According to that, AT&T's HSPA+ will end up faster than Sprint's 4G (3-6Mbps on average and up to 10Mbps) unless they pick up the pace.
For LTE (5-12Mbps) according to Verizon.
So is 4G labeling the technology once fully matured (Up to 100Mbps for both LTE and Wimax) or current speed being delivered? Because Sprint and Verizon do advertise their current technologies as being "4G speeds" which AT&T can defeat if their HSPA+ (56Mbps matured) is 21Mbps out of the gate.
The way I see it is that 4G speeds have never existed and should never have been advertised (started by Sprint), but the technology to get there is currently in the building phase.
First post, so I can't back up the speed claims with links directly to Sprint and Verizon 4G speed pages lol
And please correct me if I'm wrong on anything... I'm here to learn.

4G isn't that far away I think AT&T is playing it safe with the 4G in the future thing. I have a couple friends that install att towers and phone lines they have been crazy busy establishing the 4G network in the major cities in know for a fact that most of Dallas and Ft. Worth will be 4G ready this spring as for outlying areas that will take some time. But if you live in a big city area expect your LTE right off the bat
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

LTE is not 4G it still falls under the 3G umbrella along with WIMAX. 4G technologies can do 100M down.

Hydro360 said:
4G isn't that far away I think AT&T is playing it safe with the 4G in the future thing. I have a couple friends that install att towers and phone lines they have been crazy busy establishing the 4G network in the major cities in know for a fact that most of Dallas and Ft. Worth will be 4G ready this spring as for outlying areas that will take some time. But if you live in a big city area expect your LTE right off the bat
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
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It better be here, it's their home

Does anybody else remember this?
http://www.nokiasiemensnetworks.com...works-provides-teliasonera-with-advanced-radi
Just thought this could help a bit.

I just need to clarify one more point in addition to OP's post:
Even though HSPA+ is merely a software upgrade in the carrier side (towers), so far it is not the case with phones. So far there is no phone out there that can be software upgraded to take advantage of HSPA+'s higher speed. T-Mo has to release Galaxy S 4G phone to get 4G support. HSPA+ towers offer backward compatibility with current 3G phones but it doesn't mean you will get higher speed by default (much like 11n routers supports 11G and 11B clients but only 11n client can reach the max bandwidth).
And no, HSDPA + HSUPA does not equal to HSPA+.

groves226 said:
LTE is not 4G it still falls under the 3G umbrella along with WIMAX. 4G technologies can do 100M down.
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Only according to a few people within the ITU. 4G is LTE (and for a few sorry sorry suckers, it is WiMAX). Or at least that is how everyone in the industry sees it (outside of T-Mobile USA and now AT&T and a bunch of confused customers).
As far as speeds are concerned, we should treat Mbps throughput ratings with a grain of salt. Those are ideal world, no contention data rates which when taken out of the lab are purely theoretical. HSPA+ is an upgrade. LTE is a whole new set of radio access, backhaul and core technologies.

My friend has a "4G" LTE phone from Verizon and he got 4 or 5 mbps while I got over 5 on HSPA.

Hspda = HSPA+?

Or is that different?
I am reaching 400kb/s is hspa+ faster?
sent from planet snarf

its pretty much the same thing wtih different speeds. as far as you're concerned, it's the same thing when it comes to what your phone tells you (as long as you're provisioned for 4g with att). chances are the market that you're in (if it's a city or outside a major city) will have 4g (HSPA+), but it may or may not have the backhaul to support higher speeds. backhaul is pretty much just fiber optic cables to the towers in your areas that allow your upload and download rates to get to "4g speeds".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_Packet_Access

3G - UMTS
3.5G - HSDPA/HSDup (sometimes referred to as HSUPA)
4G - HSPA+
3 different networks, providing different speeds. However, I think that even when connected to HSPA+ you will only see download increases, you will still be using HSDup.

will umts show up as H+ still in the upper ICON?

No - UMTS should show 3G. However different ROMs will display different icons when connected to differnet networks. Don't rely on the icon. You can check which network you're connected to by going to settings - about phone - network (or status) and see what network you're actually connected to
Except in stock roms or roms built from the stock rom where the chef hasn't changed the icon. Stock roms will show H+ when connected to umts. Marketing ploy. F you, ATT

homeslice976 said:
3G - UMTS
3.5G - HSDPA/HSDup (sometimes referred to as HSUPA)
4G - HSPA+
3 different networks, providing different speeds. However, I think that even when connected to HSPA+ you will only see download increases, you will still be using HSDup.
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Click to collapse
HSPA+ is NOT 4g. LTE is 4g, even though it technically isn't. HSPA+ is jsut a software upgrade to HSPA. the only reason they needed to do the backhaul upgrades were to be able to handle the increased bandwidth.

Theoretical download speeds on HSPA+(42mbps)??

http://newsroom.t-mobile.com/articles/t-mobile-new-markets-faster-speeds
So Tmo just launched the 42Mbps service in my area (Myrtle Beach) what speeds should I be seeing? From what I understand the Sensation should be capped around 14.4Mbps but I get no where close to that, 5Mb tops.(4bars 4g service) Can anyone shed some light on how this is supposed to work?

What's funny is I live in a city that got that too (and that has great 4g coverage), but I can't get my phone to show 4g. Just keeps saying 2g. I'm chatting with tmobile right now.

14.4 is theoretical speeds, you will never see that. The max I ever got on my MT4G (same radio speeds as sensation) while testing 42mbps cell sites (I'm a TMO field technician) was 8-9mbps. That is in perfect optimal conditions on a site with no traffic and in the optimal location to the tower. These phones will never bennifit from 42mbps upgrade and even if it could you would only see that while doing speed tests or downloading large files.
Phones will be coming out later in the year with 42mbps capability.

Is 3G faster then 4G?

My fastest tests I took with Infuse were on UMTS network, ranging between 6000 and 6500 kbps. I beleive it's a 3G, right?
Immediately following it from 1000 kbps to 6000 kbps were HSDPA tests (I assume those are "4g"?)
I took about 30+ test in different times, different networks. But top 9 speeds by download were on UMTS network following by HSDPA network.
What gives? If this is a current state of affairs, then I'd rather just lock to 3G and save battery.

artisticcheese said:
My fastest tests I took with Infuse were on UMTS network, ranging between 6000 and 6500 kbps. I beleive it's a 3G, right?
Immediately following it from 1000 kbps to 6000 kbps were HSDPA tests (I assume those are "4g"?)
I took about 30+ test in different times, different networks. But top 9 speeds by download were on UMTS network following by HSDPA network.
What gives? If this is a current state of affairs, then I'd rather just lock to 3G and save battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lo should have been forced to hpsa+ when you enter data no matter what. All the tests were on 3g just some happened to be faster. By the way our 4g is not 4g only lte is. Its a gimmick lol. And one thing suprising is regular 3g and this Plus stuff is the same stuff just having more bandwith for it to go faster.Uses no more battery.

Ryanscool said:
Lo should have been forced to hpsa+ when you enter data no matter what. All the tests were on 3g just some happened to be faster. By the way our 4g is not 4g only lte is. Its a gimmick lol. And one thing suprising is regular 3g and this Plus stuff is the same stuff just having more bandwith for it to go faster.Uses no more battery.
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Click to collapse
No, this is consistent. There are way too many tests to consider this an accident. See results below. Umts is faster then HSDPA on 30+ tests I run so far. As you see in locations they are all different, also different parts of the day as well. Sample is too big to consider this an accendal observation.
"2011-08-13 07:00","Umts","33.00701","-96.89448",6412,1119,133,"Dallas, TX","10.183.179.99","32.150.131.141"
"2011-12-07 06:00","Umts","33.00760","-96.89575",6344,715,160,"Dallas, TX","10.41.103.105","166.205.9.197"
"2011-08-21 08:21","Umts","33.01306","-96.88703",6254,1035,140,"Dallas, TX","10.79.102.172","166.205.9.42"
"2011-08-12 13:49","Umts","33.00822","-96.89473",6239,1099,144,"Dallas, TX","10.150.100.141, 10.68.90.161","166.205.10.75"
"2011-08-12 13:52","Umts","33.00822","-96.89473",6164,1113,156,"Dallas, TX","10.93.66.121","166.205.10.75"
"2011-11-20 11:52","Hsdpa","32.99510","-96.88730",6077,730,68,"Fort Worth, TX","10.137.181.9","32.170.23.132"
"2011-11-19 11:18","Umts","33.00369","-96.88326",6028,1096,121,"Dallas, TX","10.131.241.205","32.168.238.98"
"2011-08-25 21:58","Umts","32.80980","-96.79930",5927,718,131,"Dallas, TX","10.131.153.86","166.205.8.68"
"2011-12-06 18:23","Hsdpa","33.00626","-96.88055",5906,1116,72,"Fort Worth, TX","10.58.242.16","32.145.53.131"
"2011-08-12 13:53","Umts","33.00822","-96.89473",5904,1074,154,"Dallas, TX","10.93.66.121","32.169.236.85"
"2011-08-12 15:03","Umts","33.00822","-96.89473",5886,1114,187,"Dallas, TX","10.93.3.118","166.189.112.8"
"2011-12-07 05:59","Hsdpa","33.00760","-96.89575",5864,724,137,"Dallas, TX","10.41.103.105","166.205.9.197"
"2011-12-06 18:16","Umts","33.00626","-96.88055",5643,732,124,"Dallas, TX","10.139.124.118","166.132.114.251"
"2011-08-12 13:44","Umts","33.00822","-96.89473",5530,1108,180,"Dallas, TX","10.68.90.161","166.205.10.75"
"2011-11-09 18:48","Umts","33.02570","-96.84037",5518,1065,172,"Dallas, TX","10.148.88.227","32.168.172.122"
"2011-10-02 08:52","Hsdpa","38.00000","-97.00000",5499,1131,71,"Oklahoma City, OK","10.77.146.107","32.170.196.78"
"2011-10-09 08:08","Umts","33.00628","-96.88251",5410,750,79,"Dallas, TX","10.137.89.60","166.132.199.183"
"2011-11-19 11:17","Hsdpa","33.01678","-96.88595",5408,903,68,"Fort Worth, TX","10.131.241.205","32.168.238.98"
"2011-09-03 15:58","Umts","33.06708","-96.89039",5398,740,86,"Dallas, TX","10.187.175.76","32.147.197.82"
"2011-12-06 18:19","Umts","33.00626","-96.88055",5388,1113,96,"Dallas, TX","10.58.242.16","32.145.53.131"
"2011-12-06 18:24","Umts","33.00626","-96.88055",5338,1108,70,"Dallas, TX","10.58.242.16","32.145.53.131"
"2011-08-23 18:25","Hsdpa","33.00810","-96.89472",5324,734,170,"Dallas, TX","10.17.250.78","166.205.9.55"
"2011-11-19 07:17","Hsdpa","33.00730","-96.89504",5242,732,127,"Dallas, TX","10.136.91.31","32.170.144.102"
"2011-09-05 09:04","Umts","38.00000","-97.00000",5232,1035,96,"Dallas, TX","10.102.94.83","32.150.105.130"
"2011-11-16 15:38","Umts","33.08185","-96.80335",5075,525,72,"Dallas, TX","10.149.253.134","166.188.180.124"
"2011-08-12 13:44","Umts","33.00822","-96.89473",5011,1088,161,"Dallas, TX","10.68.90.161","166.205.10.75"
"2011-08-20 16:02","Hsdpa","33.06562","-96.88689",4995,1102,169,"Dallas, TX","10.180.189.199","32.149.4.51"
"2011-08-13 06:59","Umts","33.00701","-96.89448",4985,739,148,"Dallas, TX","10.183.179.99","32.150.131.141"
"2011-11-16 16:03","Hsdpa","33.01648","-96.88608",4970,734,112,"Dallas, TX","10.55.212.71","32.151.10.169"
"2011-12-06 18:33","Umts","33.00626","-96.88055",4762,744,132,"Temple, TX","10.58.242.16","32.145.53.131"
"2011-12-06 18:15","Umts","33.00626","-96.88055",4679,739,137,"Fort Worth, TX","10.139.124.118","166.132.114.251"
"2011-09-06 08:59","Umts","37.38759","-121.97641",4533,685,136,"San Jose, CA","10.81.14.82","32.152.209.250"
"2011-10-21 14:52","Hsdpa","33.05276","-96.83213",4527,1047,88,"Temple, TX","10.138.35.120","166.132.31.49"
"2011-09-09 11:58","Hsdpa","37.39436","-121.97611",4508,987,112,"San Jose, CA","10.13.71.200","166.135.240.102"
"2011-08-31 17:18","Hsdpa","33.01180","-96.85744",4396,1089,155,"Dallas, TX","10.77.6.244","166.188.171.5"
"2011-11-20 08:04","Hsdpa","33.02268","-96.91396",4279,851,52,"Dallas, TX","10.137.181.9","32.170.23.132"
"2011-11-11 07:55","Hsdpa","38.00000","-97.00000",4229,294,72,"Fort Worth, TX","10.91.220.96","166.133.227.92"
"2011-11-11 08:02","Umts","33.08182","-96.80333",4225,745,65,"Fort Worth, TX","10.91.220.96","166.133.227.92"
"2011-09-08 01:17","Hsdpa","37.39514","-121.98374",4166,1099,142,"San Jose, CA","10.3.58.10","166.190.179.60"
"2011-08-19 15:18","Hsdpa","33.01901","-96.88339",4023,333,383,"Dallas, TX","10.184.183.207","32.149.250.36"
"2011-08-26 12:44","Hsdpa","33.02371","-96.88564",3974,1018,157,"Dallas, TX","10.79.97.170","32.145.218.19"
"2011-09-08 01:43","Hsdpa","37.39514","-121.98374",3945,1095,118,"San Jose, CA","10.3.58.10","166.190.179.60"
"2011-08-28 15:43","Hsdpa","33.01301","-96.88740",3791,644,196,"Dallas, TX","10.139.66.108","166.132.130.18"
"2011-11-16 15:46","Hsdpa","33.02505","-96.87194",3629,1055,157,"Dallas, TX","10.182.131.213","32.149.162.218"
"2011-10-04 07:08","Hsdpa","32.99733","-96.92118",3580,54,120,"Overland Park, KS","10.77.168.169","32.170.130.238"

artisticcheese said:
My fastest tests I took with Infuse were on UMTS network, ranging between 6000 and 6500 kbps. I beleive it's a 3G, right?
Immediately following it from 1000 kbps to 6000 kbps were HSDPA tests (I assume those are "4g"?)
I took about 30+ test in different times, different networks. But top 9 speeds by download were on UMTS network following by HSDPA network.
What gives? If this is a current state of affairs, then I'd rather just lock to 3G and save battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay, some clarifications. I'm guessing you're just talking about how it was displayed in your app, but HSPA and HSPA+ are both UMTS based networks, so 3G and HSPA+ "4G" are both UMTS. The difference in this current implementation of 3G and "4G" is that 3G is HSPA which maxes out at 14 Mbps downstream, whereas "4G" HSPA+ maxes out at 84 Mbps downstream. It's the same technology, just basically a software update.
Now, most HSPA 3G phones don't support 14 Mbps downstream. I think most max out at 7.2 Mbps. Most HSPA+ 4G phones max out at 21 Mbps, or some even support 42 Mbps, however, being that AT&T's network is 16QAM, their network's max speed is 14 Mbps. So really, HSPA 3G is entirely capable of going as fast as HSPA+ 4G on AT&T's current network, assuming you have a phone with a fast enough chip in it.
As for the results you posted, I'm not really sure what to say. You said your UMTS tests gave you 6000-6500 Kbps, but then HSDPA tests gave you 1000-6000 Kbps. What's confusing is that whatever app you are using is posting random labels on the network which are all technically correct, but only confusing people. 6000 Kbps is very definitely HSDPA. In it's first release, HSDPA was sometimes called 3.5G, whereas UMTS without HSDPA would have been base 3G. The second release of HSDPA is where we go to HSPA+ and "4G", increasing speeds to 42 Mbps.
If all of this is very confusing, then I apologize, but I'm not really surprised. This is why they apply names like 3G and 4G to it when it's far more complex. If you really want to learn more about the network technology, check out the wiki page for HSPA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Speed_Packet_Access
And yes, as previously mentioned and as you may have gathered from what I posted, HSPA 3G and HSPA+ 4G are the exact same technology, just updated a little, so the battery effect is negligible. LTE 4G will bring an entirely new radio, on top of having an HSPA or HSPA+ radio in it as well, so that's where you get more battery drain. For now, HSPA+ 4G devices won't drain any more battery than HSPA 3G devices.

AJerman said:
Okay, some clarifications. I'm guessing you're just talking about how it was displayed in your app, but HSPA and HSPA+ are both UMTS based networks, so 3G and HSPA+ "4G" are both UMTS. The difference in this current implementation of 3G and "4G" is that 3G is HSPA which maxes out at 14 Mbps downstream, whereas "4G" HSPA+ maxes out at 84 Mbps downstream. It's the same technology, just basically a software update.
Now, most HSPA 3G phones don't support 14 Mbps downstream. I think most max out at 7.2 Mbps. Most HSPA+ 4G phones max out at 21 Mbps, or some even support 42 Mbps, however, being that AT&T's network is 16QAM, their network's max speed is 14 Mbps. So really, HSPA 3G is entirely capable of going as fast as HSPA+ 4G on AT&T's current network, assuming you have a phone with a fast enough chip in it.
As for the results you posted, I'm not really sure what to say. You said your UMTS tests gave you 6000-6500 Kbps, but then HSDPA tests gave you 1000-6000 Kbps. What's confusing is that whatever app you are using is posting random labels on the network which are all technically correct, but only confusing people. 6000 Kbps is very definitely HSDPA. In it's first release, HSDPA was sometimes called 3.5G, whereas UMTS without HSDPA would have been base 3G. The second release of HSDPA is where we go to HSPA+ and "4G", increasing speeds to 42 Mbps.
If all of this is very confusing, then I apologize, but I'm not really surprised. This is why they apply names like 3G and 4G to it when it's far more complex. If you really want to learn more about the network technology, check out the wiki page for HSPA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Speed_Packet_Access
And yes, as previously mentioned and as you may have gathered from what I posted, HSPA 3G and HSPA+ 4G are the exact same technology, just updated a little, so the battery effect is negligible. LTE 4G will bring an entirely new radio, on top of having an HSPA or HSPA+ radio in it as well, so that's where you get more battery drain. For now, HSPA+ 4G devices won't drain any more battery than HSPA 3G devices.
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Click to collapse
Boom! Better explanation than me lol. Sorry for my post not being long enough, i am at school. I was trying to get to what he said.

[Q] 2G, 3G, 4G? [T-Mobile]

Does TMobile not have a 3G speed?
Im always on EDGE unless I go Downtown. Then its HSPA+
Its never HSPA.
Verizon has 3G AND LTE coverage? wtf

BUMP.
I really want to know the reason for the issue

T-Mobile's '4G' network is just an enhanced version of their 3G network. So when you see 4G in some areas, you might actually be running on 3G speeds.

aNYthing24 said:
T-Mobile's '4G' network is just an enhanced version of their 3G network. So when you see 4G in some areas, you might actually be running on 3G speeds.
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Click to collapse
I know that much,
but I never get HSPA (3G) unless Im directly under HSPA+(4G)
Basically I am always on EDGE unless I'm downtown.
Other TMO phones and VErizon have 3G coverage nearly everywhere..they never drop to EDGE or 2G

Correct me if I'm wrong, but t mobile does not have true 4g. When you get the 4g icon on your phone, that's just their enhanced 3g. So you are getting 3g. From what I've read i think they just upgraded their 3g towers with hshpa+ which only hsdpa+ enabled phones like the sensation 4g can take advantage of. What you're really missing is true 4g

burnie022 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but t mobile does not have true 4g. When you get the 4g icon on your phone, that's just their enhanced 3g. So you are getting 3g. From what I've read i think they just upgraded their 3g towers with hshpa+ which only hsdpa+ enabled phones like the sensation 4g can take advantage of. What you're really missing is true 4g
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Click to collapse
I feel as no one is fully understanding what I'm trying to say.
I know 4G is really an overmarketed 3G+
Now, Tmobile phones and other services receive 3G where I only receive "2G" .
But I do receive HSPA+ when I go downtown.
Why dont I receive normal 3G speeds like other devices?
Its either EDGE or HSPA+
Never an inbetween

Check T-Mobile's website, where you live probably doesn't have or hasn't been upgraded to the 3G/4G service yet. Layman's term; the towers around your house don't support 3G/4G. Call T-Mobile and have them check.
This is common in a lot of suburbs that have a low population. Like you mentioned when you go downtown, you'll have 3G but not at home.

xdviper said:
Check T-Mobile's website, where you live probably doesn't have or hasn't been upgraded to the 3G/4G service yet. Layman's term; the towers around your house don't support 3G/4G. Call T-Mobile and have them check.
This is common in a lot of suburbs that have a low population. Like you mentioned when you go downtown, you'll have 3G but not at home.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hopefully your right. Hate it to be a problem with my SIM or phone.
I dont live but 5minutes from downtown.
Very residential but still out of the way, so like i said hopefully your right

I can directly relate to your problem. First off, I didn't know that T-Mobile's 4G is just 3G+, but that's good to know. I've had the HTC Sensation 4G for over 3 months, and I've travelled all over LA and the only services I've seen are 4G, 2G, & G. I've yet to see 3G.

I'll see my Sensation jump between "H" and "3G" all the time - essentially the same thing, as noted.
(in case this was part of your question) "Standard 3G" (such as what AT&T offers) isn't available on TMOUS because they missed out on buying part of the "standard 3G" spectrum.
Before my Sensation I had a Legend (still do actually) - it's a "standard GSM/3G" phone. Without the TMOUS-specific radio, best data I could get was EDGE. (though if I went to UK and used a local SIM, I'd get 3G just fine due to compatibility with their 3G nets)