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Hi ya guys,i'm not really one to bump my gums about network providers,but felt i had to put hand to keyboard and have a little rant about the shabby way tmobile have dealt with me.I upgraded last year (Feb 07) to an mda vario and my partner upgraded to a nokia7373,we have two lines on the account,my plan is flext 35,my partner has a discounted line rental where she used to only pay £3.99 a month,we said to the sales rep that make sure my partners line still qualifies for the discount,upon which we were told," fine,not a problem".it was only in april 07 that i noticed my partners line rental was £13.99 a month not £3.99.I called t mobile,explained the situation to them,and was basically told "tough,you need to go back to the shop were you got the upgrade".you see i was visiting my cancer ridden father at the time,who happens to live a 5 1/2 hour drive away,so as u can see this was not feasible.From that moment i thought aint no way will i be renewing any contract with these tossers!!!To add insult to injury,every time i connected my vario at home to my wireless network,i was being charged for it,only a couple of pounds a month because i dont use my vario at home very often.Last month i phoned them and explained this to them so they only refunded last months mobile data charges.my contract is due for renewal 09/02/08 and i have phoned their customer services to see if we can come to some arrangement in the respect that i could at least try and recoup some of my losses.Over the last year they have blatantly ripped me off to the tune of £120 in line rental and about £25 mobile data.I spoke to another customer service rep 2day and asked them that the only way i was going to renew my contract was if they put my partners line rental back down to what it was and i wanted my same flext 35 tariff plus web n walk plus and a free vario 3(Kaiser) all for £27.50 a month.obviously they said no which has prompted me to write this thread.I really feel peed off with them because we've been with them for 6 years,and feel they have no idea what customer loyalty means!!!!I may phone back and speak to another numpty in customer services to see if i can get what i want but as i say the chances are very slim!!!what they did offer me tho was a free Samsung F250 for my partner(bag of nails phone) but i would have to pay £100 for my vario 3 and would get no discount on my line rental.Is dis shabby or is dis shabbby!!!!
Also if ne 1 could give me sum advice on how to deal with arseholes,it would be gratefully received,thanks
nayga73 said:
Hi ya guys,i'm not really one to bump my gums about network providers,but felt i had to put hand to keyboard and have a little rant about the shabby way tmobile have dealt with me.I upgraded last year (Feb 07) to an mda vario and my partner upgraded to a nokia7373,we have two lines on the account,my plan is flext 35,my partner has a discounted line rental where she used to only pay £3.99 a month,we said to the sales rep that make sure my partners line still qualifies for the discount,upon which we were told," fine,not a problem".it was only in april 07 that i noticed my partners line rental was £13.99 a month not £3.99.I called t mobile,explained the situation to them,and was basically told "tough,you need to go back to the shop were you got the upgrade".you see i was visiting my cancer ridden father at the time,who happens to live a 5 1/2 hour drive away,so as u can see this was not feasible.From that moment i thought aint no way will i be renewing any contract with these tossers!!!To add insult to injury,every time i connected my vario at home to my wireless network,i was being charged for it,only a couple of pounds a month because i dont use my vario at home very often.Last month i phoned them and explained this to them so they only refunded last months mobile data charges.my contract is due for renewal 09/02/08 and i have phoned their customer services to see if we can come to some arrangement in the respect that i could at least try and recoup some of my losses.Over the last year they have blatantly ripped me off to the tune of £120 in line rental and about £25 mobile data.I spoke to another customer service rep 2day and asked them that the only way i was going to renew my contract was if they put my partners line rental back down to what it was and i wanted my same flext 35 tariff plus web n walk plus and a free vario 3(Kaiser) all for £27.50 a month.obviously they said no which has prompted me to write this thread.I really feel peed off with them because we've been with them for 6 years,and feel they have no idea what customer loyalty means!!!!I may phone back and speak to another numpty in customer services to see if i can get what i want but as i say the chances are very slim!!!what they did offer me tho was a free Samsung F250 for my partner(bag of nails phone) but i would have to pay £100 for my vario 3 and would get no discount on my line rental.Is dis shabby or is dis shabbby!!!!
Also if ne 1 could give me sum advice on how to deal with arseholes,it would be gratefully received,thanks
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I understand where you're coming from, although I think playing devil's advocate I would make a few points:
The comment about having to go back to the store, whilst unhelpful given your circumstances, is no different from that provided by Voda or O2 in my experience. The deal was made with a manager in a store, who should be able to verify this. If you the agreement in writing, then great but otherwise without proof you're relying on goodwill and a good memory.
The second question I'd ask is have you spoken to retentions about this? They are the only people who have any power in any telco. I'd recommend you start by asking for your PAC code, and keep calm. The other person won't help you if you're emotional. Bear in mind that it may take a couple of people until you get someone sympathetic (Or with a sales target to reach) so stay calm and if needs be take the PAC code and call back in a couple of days.
But please realise that call centre people have personal problems too and different personalities. You are nothing but a stat to them, not meant in a bad way, but stay calm and you will get more.
I'd like to relate a good experience I had with T-Mob Customer Services last week. I had upgraded to a MDA Vario III in November, on Flext20. With my new toy I was incurring significant data downloads so I upgraded to the Web'n'walk package over the phone in December. When my January bill came, I found they'd not applied the Web'n'walk option and had charged me over £100 for just my data. I called and they couldn't find a record of my original call to upgrade to WnW on their system. I didn't have any evidence of this either - just a vague recollection of speaking to a lady about it sometime after I'd got the new phone.
However, the chap on the phone told me to hold - for about 5 mins - then came back on and said that as a goodwill gesture, they would credit off all £100 of the data charges and fix the WnW subscription too. I said thanks very much and rang off before he changed his mind...
bydandie said:
I understand where you're coming from, although I think playing devil's advocate I would make a few points:
The comment about having to go back to the store, whilst unhelpful given your circumstances, is no different from that provided by Voda or O2 in my experience. The deal was made with a manager in a store, who should be able to verify this. If you the agreement in writing, then great but otherwise without proof you're relying on goodwill and a good memory.
The second question I'd ask is have you spoken to retentions about this? They are the only people who have any power in any telco. I'd recommend you start by asking for your PAC code, and keep calm. The other person won't help you if you're emotional. Bear in mind that it may take a couple of people until you get someone sympathetic (Or with a sales target to reach) so stay calm and if needs be take the PAC code and call back in a couple of days.
But please realise that call centre people have personal problems too and different personalities. You are nothing but a stat to them, not meant in a bad way, but stay calm and you will get more.
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i welcome your comments greatly,the thing is i HAVE been totally calm with them,not raised my voice once with them,i work in retail so i know the script when it comes to complaining etc..but seems everytime i call them i always end up getiing someone who hasnt the authority to do anything!!!
you need to talk to tradeing standands they will help you. also every time you call them ask for they name..
The general standard of customer care from mobile companies in the UK is dire.
I cancelled at the end of my contract as the service was crap, and a few times during the year I had been hit with bills for unsolicited text messages.
WITH TMOBILE.
During the year they change the billing date, and they took a full months line rental covering the period after I cancelled. When I called them to see why - they told me that although they had issued a cancellation number, it had been done by email so it did not count, and my account was still not cancelled.
It took two hours of hanging on the phone to get it ended - and it was just not worth the hassle to get the extra 12 quid they took back.
With a previous account they had overcharged me by about a hundred quid, so I stopped the direct debit and asked them to fix it. It took about 40 calls until i got a customer service rep who had a clue. when i told him how many times I had called - he said he found it difficult to believe and could check. He found 26 calls that had been ignored - and when I said I had called far more often he admitted some people would just not log the call.
I asked to have my account ended (as it matched with the introduction of fees for 0800 numbers) and he did so and there was a tenner I still owed - which he waived.
However, the following year a credit card application was declined and when I got a credit report to see why - it showed arrears on my mobile bill.
WITH ORANGE.
"Your data allowance is provided free - so although we are unable to provide data currently - it was free so we don't need to credit you" (When they sold me a phone when they started 3G badly).
----
CS:- "Your phone has nothing to do with us - look at the phone - whose name is on it"
ME "It says Orange and has an Orange square"
CS:- "No your problem is with the manufacturer - their name is on the phone - and you need to keep paying us line rental while they repair it as its your problem not ours unless you take out our (whatever they call cover plan)"
----
Every CS rep said the same, then one at night said something implying he had net access.
I told him the site for trading standards and to check who was responsible for the phone.
CS:- "Hey - you are right - what we were trained to say is entirely dodgy - I need to report this to my manager in the morning and they will get back to you"
Still waiting two years on.
----
CS:- "yes the phone wont work with bluetooth until it has a software upgrade - its a security feature"
----
CS:- "Sorry our phone helpers can't get that phone to work either - you need to call the manufacturer"
----
CS in shop:- "A phone cannot possibly put someone else's number onto a text message"
ME:- "Text me"
Her text arrived from the "China Sea Chinese Takeaway" (a landline).
CS in shop "Well, its only a minor problem and you are obviously still receiving the texts."
ME:- "Yes but you should see what happens when that number then calls"
CS in shop calls me and it works fine as there never was a problem with calls.
CS mobile number appears on a series of cards offering sexual services in phone boxes.
wizardragon said:
The general standard of customer care from mobile companies in the UK is dire.
I cancelled at the end of my contract as the service was crap, and a few times during the year I had been hit with bills for unsolicited text messages.
WITH TMOBILE.
During the year they change the billing date, and they took a full months line rental covering the period after I cancelled. When I called them to see why - they told me that although they had issued a cancellation number, it had been done by email so it did not count, and my account was still not cancelled.
It took two hours of hanging on the phone to get it ended - and it was just not worth the hassle to get the extra 12 quid they took back.
With a previous account they had overcharged me by about a hundred quid, so I stopped the direct debit and asked them to fix it. It took about 40 calls until i got a customer service rep who had a clue. when i told him how many times I had called - he said he found it difficult to believe and could check. He found 26 calls that had been ignored - and when I said I had called far more often he admitted some people would just not log the call.
I asked to have my account ended (as it matched with the introduction of fees for 0800 numbers) and he did so and there was a tenner I still owed - which he waived.
However, the following year a credit card application was declined and when I got a credit report to see why - it showed arrears on my mobile bill.
WITH ORANGE.
"Your data allowance is provided free - so although we are unable to provide data currently - it was free so we don't need to credit you" (When they sold me a phone when they started 3G badly).
----
CS:- "Your phone has nothing to do with us - look at the phone - whose name is on it"
ME "It says Orange and has an Orange square"
CS:- "No your problem is with the manufacturer - their name is on the phone - and you need to keep paying us line rental while they repair it as its your problem not ours unless you take out our (whatever they call cover plan)"
----
Every CS rep said the same, then one at night said something implying he had net access.
I told him the site for trading standards and to check who was responsible for the phone.
CS:- "Hey - you are right - what we were trained to say is entirely dodgy - I need to report this to my manager in the morning and they will get back to you"
Still waiting two years on.
----
CS:- "yes the phone wont work with bluetooth until it has a software upgrade - its a security feature"
----
CS:- "Sorry our phone helpers can't get that phone to work either - you need to call the manufacturer"
----
CS in shop:- "A phone cannot possibly put someone else's number onto a text message"
ME:- "Text me"
Her text arrived from the "China Sea Chinese Takeaway" (a landline).
CS in shop "Well, its only a minor problem and you are obviously still receiving the texts."
ME:- "Yes but you should see what happens when that number then calls"
CS in shop calls me and it works fine as there never was a problem with calls.
CS mobile number appears on a series of cards offering sexual services in phone boxes.
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and i thought i had it bad!!!!well heres's an update to the situation.........
Finally got to spoke to somebody with some authority on thursday afternoon (31/01/08)and i must say the gentleman was pretty clued up!at first he wasn't having any of it,he basically tried to give me the usual company spiel,offering apologies etc etc...When i told him i had made a complaint 2 weeks previous,and my reason for phoning was to find out the outcome,his attitude clearly changed.I was put on hold for a couple of mins,and he came back and said rather sheepishly that my complaint had not gone any further than i had left it 2 weeks previously.I was livid,i thought i was gonna blow,but maintained my decorum throughout.I said that i was going to have to take the matter further and speak to OFT(Office of Fair Trading)but he said not to do that as he said he had an offer i couldnt refuse.He offered me a free MDA Vario 3,my flext 35 plan down to £30 a month,with the £180 credit,and web n walk plus for free,all on a 12 month term.I obviously wanted more,but thought at the end of the day he could have offered me JACK DO DO!!!So sometimes it does pay to complain!!!!albeit rather calmly!!!!
i always wanted the Vario 3,but gutted now as i have only just realised all the problems about the drivers for the graphics hardware!!??!!Sod's law or what??????
what a winging twat you are if i got you on the phone i would have said got stop winging you looser your never happy are you what did u want free line rental forever aswell:
maybe he just wanted what was owed toh im, not hars is it, 14 a month is definitely not 4 a month
they will have looked into the data charges and he probably will have done it ive seen it all the time when they say they didnt do the usage and they did and if he was so bothered about the discount he would have gone to the shop to swort it instead of winging hes complaning about the customer services but how do they know he should have kept the discount he could have just been making it up
i dont know how good a deal you really got. around 15 months ago i got a kasier, and 18 month flext35 + web and walk for £35 a month, and the phone was free.. id been with tmobile for a year previously, but it seemed like a fair deal, especially given how new the phone was at the time.
i dont think ive ever had to pay for a pda phone on a contract, they've always managed to bring them down to free if you're willing to take the 18month contracts and complain a bit.
Well more shabbiness from the great t-mobile!I sent my phone in for repair 24/01/09 and have only received it 2day,with a rather annoying letter attached to it saying that my phone has not been repaired due to me unlocking the phone and the phone not having the operator software originally installed on the phone!I had phoned them on Wednesday afternoon to find out why they've had my phone so long and was told that they were waiting for a part for the joystick (d-pad) their words not mine,they assured me my phone wpould be with me friday.So imagine my dismay when i get the phone and see the paperwork attached to it which clearly states that this phone would not be repaired dated 17/02/09,i phoned on wednesday (18th), so how come the CSA didnt tell me that there was a problem with repairing it?
Also i had left my 8 gig sd card in the phone,which has mysteriously disappeared along with my stylus.
I'm gonna phone them in the morning,but would like to know where i stand legally with these morons.
PS.I am no longer under the jurisdiction of ANY UK law or Act or statute,meaning if i get the runaround from tmobile,i can legally bill them for wasting my time,my fee currently starts at £500 per hour.All this is 100% above board!
N E 1 interested in becoming free,just pm me!
Also @ Gibb,yes i may be whinging twat,but a free whinging twat that is not bound by ANY government,that does not pay tax in any form,but can still claim for state handouts,legally!
I was told by my cousin that I could cancel my contract with AT&T and not be charged a fee for doing so even though my contract isn't up yet because I am not within their 3G network.......does anyone know if there is any truth to this?
iamcombat said:
I was told by my cousin that I could cancel my contract with AT&T and not be charged a fee for doing so even though my contract isn't up yet because I am not within their 3G network.......does anyone know if there is any truth to this?
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No truth to this. You will be charged an ETF prorated according to the number of months you have remaining in your contract
It's almost impossible to get out of a contract early with an ETF.
iamcombat said:
I was told by my cousin that I could cancel my contract with AT&T and not be charged a fee for doing so even though my contract isn't up yet because I am not within their 3G network.......does anyone know if there is any truth to this?
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Your cousin is wrong. AT&T doesn't guarantee 3G coverage. The termination fee applies to you.
There actually is some truth to what you were told. It is perfectly legal to ask AT&T to wave the fee because you are not financially able to pay for it. If they are not willing to work with you, contact the FCC and explain the situation and you will almost be guaranteed to get out of paying it. I wrote some more information about working with your cell companies on issues like this here. (h-t-t-p://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=8040586#post8040586) Remove the dashes obviously.
You can get out of your contract if you use tons of roaming minutes and data for a couple of months. Actually they will force you out.
k2snowboards88 said:
You can get out of your contract if you use tons of roaming minutes and data for a couple of months. Actually they will force you out.
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yeah... dont do this.
Your cousin is only partly right, ATT will let you out of your contract if you move to an area that they do not cover at all. It is not just some where without 3G, it has to be some where that they have no coverage what so ever say like Nome Alaska as an example
ukulele_ninja said:
There actually is some truth to what you were told. It is perfectly legal to ask AT&T to wave the fee because you are not financially able to pay for it. If they are not willing to work with you, contact the FCC and explain the situation and you will almost be guaranteed to get out of paying it. I wrote some more information about working with your cell companies on issues like this here. (h-t-t-p://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=8040586#post8040586) Remove the dashes obviously.
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Yes, It is perfectly legal to ask for anything. you can ask to get out of any contract. You can walk into a bank and ask for $1,000,000 - good luck with that. I have gotten ETF waived when I quit another carrier because they had terrible coverage in my area. It took a letter to the presidents office, and I didn't have a smart phone.
However; if you are trying to get out of AT&T and keep a Smartphone, I see them asking for it back. The high ETF if partially to keep people from getting subsidized smartphones, and then quitting the service. In the past you could do this with the iphone - buy it for $199 subsidized; quit, pay the $175 earl term fee, and sell the phone on eBay for $600.
The FCC is not going to help someone that can't pay a bill for usually and customary fees - they may get involved if you have a $10,000 data bill, but not because you can't afford to pay for what you signed up for.
alphadog00 said:
Yes, It is perfectly legal to ask for anything. you can ask to get out of any contract. You can walk into a bank and ask for $1,000,000 - good luck with that. I have gotten ETF waived when I quit another carrier because they had terrible coverage in my area. It took a letter to the presidents office, and I didn't have a smart phone.
However; if you are trying to get out of AT&T and keep a Smartphone, I see them asking for it back. The high ETF if partially to keep people from getting subsidized smartphones, and then quitting the service. In the past you could do this with the iphone - buy it for $199 subsidized; quit, pay the $175 earl term fee, and sell the phone on eBay for $600.
The FCC is not going to help someone that can't pay a bill for usually and customary fees - they may get involved if you have a $10,000 data bill, but not because you can't afford to pay for what you signed up for.
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As I said they can HELP and ALMOST guarantee to get you out of paying an ETF. Its not the same as walking into the bank and asking for money, its asking the carrier to waive the fee because you have been a faithful customer and paid your bill on time and are currently in a situation where you cannot afford to pay the termination fee. I know this because I have done this SEVERAL times to switch carriers and if the carrier is not willing to play ball, threaten to call the FCC and they are more willing to play ball. If that doesnt work, file a complaint with the BBB and then the FCC if you need the big guns.
Several years ago I was on Sprint and their service was absolutely garbage. On top of that, the first 9 months of my service they never billed me correctly and frequently charged me for wrong services or overcharged me for things like text messaging, etc. I eventually got fed up with it and called them and told them I wanted to cancel my service and they told me I would be charged $600 ($300 per line on my family account). I argued that the reason for my canceling was their subpar service and customer relations but they wouldnt back down. So I filed a BBB complaint and a week later they called, apologized and agreed to drop the ETF if I returned my phones, which I did. Problem solved.
No you cant cancel your service and expect to keep your new phone (Not normally at least) These tools are out there for consumers to use so use them to your advantage!
The FCC is the final straw and should be used only when the situation is really dire. In the end it NEVER HURTS TO TRY and at the very least Ive seen several times where people have been able to get the fee drastically reduced after involving the BBB or FCC.
I will stress that you need to have a decent case though, dont ask for help just because you want to jump ship with no reason. The OP seems to be having a lot of problems with his device and their service and thats enough reason to try.
Yes, the key to getting out of the contract without paying an ETF is to have a valid reason.
Poor service, incorrect billing, or some other documented recurring negative experience will usually work.
If they still don't see your side, the ETF is generally cheaper then keeping terrible service if you are near the first half of a 2 year contract. Sometimes it may be necessary to pay to quit.
Not sure if this is the right place to share this or not, but wanted to give some others some help from my own experiences.
I have recently gone through an awful battle with ATT regarding my upgrade status for a new phone. The very vague version of the story is that three months ago my online account showed me as eligible for an upgrade and I was going to get the Iphone 3GS. When I went to the store to buy it, I was told that I was not eligible because my account (on their end) said I was not eligible. After countless arguments and working my way through the 'ranks' of management I FINALLY came to learn that Apple's agreement with ATT does not allow them flexibility to correct customer concerns with the iphone and they are not allowed to do price overrides. The truth of that is questionable, but regardless they outright refused to give me the standard upgrade pricing on the Iphone. In the end I chose to go with the Captivate and from what Ive read, it was the right choice . I thought though that I would share with you all some free tools and services that are available to consumers that helped me and can help you get your complaints and concerns taken care of.
Most of you I hope already know about some of these, but if you dont they can be priceless.
1. The Better Business Bureau: (w-w-w. bbb .o-r-g) The BBB are the knights in shining armor for consumers. They basically will act as a mediator between you and a company who you are having difficulty getting through to or who you feel are giving you the run around. The best part is that since the BBB gives 'report cards' to millions of companies across the country, you can almost always get in touch with a very high up customer service worker who has more flexibility to help you. ATT in general has a department dedicated strictly only to addressing BBB complaints (Corporate Escalations Department Consumer Complaints Division) The only way you will ever have the privilege to speak with these individuals is to go this route. Theres never a guarantee with the BBB, but it will beat dealing with mindless call center drones who are unwilling or not allowed to take care of your issues appropriately. The complaint process is very easy and user friendly and in the best case scenario you will be contacted by the company within 7 days of filing. The BBB will stay in contact with you throughout the entire process and keep you updated with what the company is submitting to them as well.
2. The Federal Communications Commission: (w-w-w. fcc .g-o-v) Did you know that the FCC oversees the doings of all wireless carriers in the country? If all else fails, an FCC complaint is the equivalent of calling in a customer service artillery attack against a wireless company. The company is REQUIRED to address any complaints submitted by consumers to the FCC and you WILL hear back about your complaint. Best yet, the FCC will fight for your side of things and encourage the carrier to work towards getting you a fair resolution. Again, there are no guarantees, but if your getting the run around continuously then go this route! One of the most common complaints to the FCC about carriers regard early termination fees and with the FCC on your side you can almost always get a clean break from a cell contract without having to pay any of those nasty fees that can add up very quickly.
3.BASIC CUSTOMER SERVICE CALL CENTER WORKERS ARE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS TO YOUR CAUSE! I would repeat that but I think you get the point. Call Center employees are extremely limited in what they can actually do for you. Do yourself a favor and ask to speak to a manager, if they tell you that you the manager will say or give you the same resolve, ignore them and again demand to speak to a manager. Call Center employees are trained to try and steer you away from speaking to anyone above them and they will try to convince you that doing anything above them is pointless. DON'T LISTEN! Stick to your guns and talk to a manager or supervisor.
When it does come time to speak to a manager you will be in much better hands because you will actually be talking to someone who has the authority to resolve your complaint and offer you something in return. Supervisors are USUALLY more sympathetic about your complaint as long as you don't jump down their throats from the get-go. Explain your issue sternly and tell them what you want in return. You don't have to break out the boxing gloves but don't be a pushover either, if you don't get what you want, then move onto the next rung on the ladder. It may sound like a lot of work, but if your getting the work around then it is worth every bit of your time and energy to fight it. Don't back down till you get a fair resolve.
Also, the BBB and FCC are excellent bargaining tools to use in your favor. Threatening to file a complaint with either organization can sometimes be enough to tilt the scale. Companies fear this because they know its incredibly easy to file one and there's a good chance that your going to do it if you threaten it.
Again, desperate times call for powerful action. Don't let these comapnies bully you, tell you that your wrong or the worst one: tell you that you don't understand how something works. Companies love trying to convince you that your wrong and that its your fault that your account or whatever is messed up.
I think so and I'm about to explain why.
I switched to Verizon's HTC thunderbolt from AT&T (out of contract) and being that I pay a month up front, figured AT&T would owe me for a partial month of service. I was surprised to receive a bill for $67 from AT&T that was for 10 days of service. At the time I was busy and didn't call right away. The next month I received a bill for $403!
I called today and they stated it was $300 in ETF fees. I asked why I owed $67 for 10 days of service and got a response that if I switched service I would have to pay for a full month's of service regardless of how many days I used. I told them the FCC has guidelines to prevent big companies from doing things like that and I would not be paying them for service I didn't use. This is when they began to backpedal and say well as a courtesy we will only charge you for 10 days!?! lol, what a courtesy to actually get charged for what I used.
After an hour long conversation with the customer service manager my bill was reduced down to less than $30. I have experienced this similar type of situation with Verizon in the past after not getting good reception where they tried to charge me for a full month of service after porting over my number as well as unjustified ETF fees.
I didn't have a contract with AT&T yet for some reason they were trying to justify these hefty ETF fees that took even the manager in the customer service department an hour to fix.
I think these big cell phone companies try to bully around the consumer rather than win them over. Then claim they are doing you a favor by treating you fairly!
Hearing about the T-mobile merger I'm really starting to wonder what is going to come of the future of mobile services. I have had T-mobile service for 5 years in the past and never have I experienced these kinds of problems, the big 2 have given me.
Once T-mobile is bought out where will the checks and balances of competition be observed? I would have signed up for T-mobile service but they don't have nice phones nor the data connection speed I was looking for.
Hence the dilema, as these companies get larger they gain more power over the consumer and the manufacturer of the devices. We as the consumer have very little say in what occurs other than to sit on the phone and hope the person on the other end can "work it out" in their system.
Large corporations abusing their customers... what else is new?
I've heard these horror stories from both sides of the fence (Verizon + ATT). Just like almost every other business sector in America, customer service is going down with last night's dinner. Instead of "The customer is always right," corporations have now moved to "Get them to a position where they can't say 'no'" leaving consumers no choice but to bend over and take it or band together and sue. Pretty soon instead of labor unions we'll have consumer unions...
/rant
dbisch said:
Large corporations abusing their customers... what else is new?
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I guess the better question is how can I let the government know what happened in my situation and allow them to understand what this means for the consumer?
Or are they just getting paid copious amounts of money to justify the anti-trust situation and there is nothing we as the consumer can do to stop them?
Is there no forum for this other than BBB?
I feel like the FCC should know that both AT&T and Verizon are telling customers they have to pay for service they never receive and then when called out they back down acting like I'm getting one over on them.
Don't know what it is worth.... but...
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/hotdocket/list
azwildfire said:
Don't know what it is worth.... but...
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/hotdocket/list
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Thanks! I'll look into it
Well both companies have crappy service, I was a Tmo customer and hated every minute I had them. Couldnt drive home from work without loosing my call 3 or 4 times.
To tell you the truth "customer service" varies just like people are. Depends who you get, and what kind of problem you have. I have had friends that try and twist the system and complain poor customer service because they don't get their way. I have seen people with legitimate problems who don't get help because at times reps don't have the authority to fix the problem. A lot of people don't have patience like they used to have. Sometimes how you present yourself dictates the kind of service you get.
On the subject at hand... I don't think it honestly matters... Consumers have been giving up power for many years... If it bothered you that much about pricing then why bother getting service and paying for it. If people stuck to their guns instead of paying for it then prices would change faster than everyone paying for service.
BEFORE anyone cries and say they need blah blah blah for "emergencies"
ANY phone land line or cellular can dial 911 regardless if it has service or not as required BY LAW... So that's a VERY MOOT point.
If it was an emergency then what are you going to do? Text 911, or look up on the internet how to dial 911 and report an emergency?
At some point with the way things are going choices will be gone... The government will soon be telling us what we can and can't do, what services to get, and everything else imaginable... We are almost there anyway with the way people cry about this and that instead of putting their money where their mouth is.
I've started a Whitehouse.gov petition to fix the cell phone subsidy problems. The cost of early termination fees are out of control compared to the wholesale and retail cost of phones and I'd like to see the phone subsidy (or financing) billed separately from the service cost. This would make it extremely clear to all (even those who don't currently understand subsidies) how much the phones are truly costing them and hopefully improve pricing on the big carriers.
We need 150 signatures to get this to a public state where anyone can view it on the site. I'm requesting help from everyone to get these signatures to 150 and beyond. Please post on your Facebook and Google+ to get your friends and family to help out too.
Go here to view the Whitehouse.gov petition: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/require-fair-and-clear-pricing-wireless-services-and-wireless-devices/wf5hYdxd?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
The petition is as follows:
The federally permitted duopoly of AT&T and Verizon Wireless has severely hurt competition and driven up prices in the wireless services industry. This has occurred while wireless service prices elsewhere have plummeted due to technological improvements reducing the cost to deliver service. A 3 point approach is required to protect consumers:
1. Require separation of the true cost to the consumer for the phone hardware and wireless service so that they are billed separately.
2. Prohibit early termination fees that exceed the remaining balance of the fair market value of the subsidized or financed wireless hardware.
3. Require all carriers to offer wireless service without any financial penatly or increased cost of service for using a customer owned device.
Now before anyone tells me to own my cell phone service, please note that I already have with a Nexus 4 (previously G'nex) and Straight Talk, SIMple Mobile, and Solavei. I'm pushing this petition for everyone who doesn't yet "own" their service and to improve the future market overall.
While I agree with you about how you feel about contract services, I'm not sure how I feel about needing this to be legally policed.
The thing with the phones being subsidized is that I don't see this as being a perfectly cookie-cutter direct relation to the monthly contract price. Why is it wrong for a business to offer an incentive for a customer to sign a contract ? People need to do research and have willpower - why should people have to be legally protected from making bad choices ? Casinos, liquor, and cigarettes are legal, after all.
The problem I see with point 2 is that it's not just about the hardware - it's about trying to leave a contract that you agreed to before the end of the term. Would you rather they take people to court over it ? It's like signing any contract and people should take it seriously instead of expecting to just get out of it if they want to - if you stop making car or rent payments the contract-holder isn't going to just say, "o, that's okay, I'll let you off free this time because you seem so nice". If you sign a non-disclosure or non-compete agreement, they aren't going to say, "o, you sound so nice over the phone and you're having a bad time, just go right on ahead and break the contract we won't pursue it".
The real "solution" here isn't legal action, it's public awareness. Awareness that a contract is a serious agreement - and that they have options and need to think about if a contract is best for them or not.
The solution is educating people on their other options - if people talk with their money, the companies will hear it (and at this point, they're already starting to listen).
You're preaching to the choir. A two year contract is a real commitment and shouldn't be taken lightly.
However, think about it in a little bit different light. The carriers are a legalized duopoly. This has significant benefits to us - remember when we only had regional carriers and we had to pay exorbitant per minute roaming rates? Now virtually every carrier includes roaming free, because they each have such a far reach with their existing network. We also have near seamless coverage wherever we're driving.
Despite these benefits of having only a couple major carriers, keep in mind that the carriers use public assets to provide service. Their spectrum is leased, not owned, and the spectrum is public property. Furthermore, they are in a unique position to take advantage of us, and they do. Think of the utilities that we use for our homes. You usually only have one choice for electricity and one choice for natural gas service to your home. Because if that, the utilities are regulated to protect the consumer. But, it really only makes sense to have one of each of these utilities in any area due to the high cost of the infrastructure.
I see cell carriers in the same way. Allow them to provide the benefits that they provide with their massive, high quality networks, but protect the consumer from abuse.
Let's take a look at typical discrepancies on a high end android phone subsidy.
Retail cost of phone: $500-600
Likely wholesale cost of phone to the carrier: $300-400
Cost to the consumer on contract: $200-300
Maximum amount of money to be recouped by the carrier due to subsidy: $200
Now lets look at the cost of the subsidy of two years:
Monthly contract cost: $90
Two year contract cost: $2160
Monthly prepaid plan (being conservative, they're typically lower): $55
Two year prepaid plan: $1320
You can't possibly look me in the eye and tell me that a $350 ETF is right or ethical. The carriers are recouping over over $800 to cover the cost of the phone in this scenario, and I'm erring on the low side. Remember when the ETF used to be $125-175? The carriers tell us that advanced devices cost more than feature phones did, but that's a pure lie. In the day of lower ETFs, feature phones had the same high retail pricing that smart phones do today.
You may or may not be surprised to know how many people I talk to about cell phones who don't understand phone subsidies. It's unfortunate, but not everyone understands it.
I'm on a personal mission the take as many people as possibly away from the major carriers and I've been very successful. Many people don't realize the prepaid options they have. But, we unfortunately need regulatory intervention to truly fix the problem.
I hate the fact that I don't have options right now because I'm locked into a contract until December. When I truly looked at how much I'd save over the two years, it made me sick.
If everyone just did a little bit of simple math they would leave Verizon and ATT. I am leaving to go to straight talk when my contract is up.
I think most people want what they want though. And that is the latest and fastest tech out there that's available to them and when they're offered it 5 to 6 months before they're contract is up at a "discount", then they jump at it. But we all know that in two years, your new tech will be way out dated and you will have paid twice what it's worth. It's rent-a-center for smartphones. It just doesn't make financial sense.
That's just my two cents.
Sent from my Droid X2 using Tapatalk 2
---------- Post added at 06:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------
But I will have to disagree with you that we need regulatory measures. You would be taking away one's freedom to make choices. No one is forced to sign the contract just as no one is forced to buy a home or car that they can't afford to keep up. People need to be educated on how to live within their means by keeping a budget and sticking to it and learning to say no to themselves sometimes. Just because something is available to us or that we can afford the monthly payments, doesn't always mean we should buy it.
People no longer ask whether or not they should or shouldn't do this or buy that. They do everything they can to acquire the latest tech, gadget or possession thinking it will satisfy their unending desires. The problem is, they don't satisfy us.
Why do you think people are obsessed with rooting and constantly flashing roms? Because we get bored with our current os or how our phone looks and feels, so we think by flashing a different rom or mod, it will keep us happy and satisfied.
The only reason I'm saying this is because I'm just as guilty, but am learning how to be content with what I have. The moment I start becoming discontented with what I have, is when I buy into the lie that I just need to upgrade my phone and sign another contract to make me happy.
But to say that I need the government to tell me that I can't takes away freedoms and personal responsibility. Sometimes we need to make mistakes to realize that the decisions we made weren't so beneficial after all.
Sent from my Eclipsed Droid X2 using Tapatalk 2
If you read the petition, it's actually a pretty reasonable request. As a business owner myself, I am generally anti regulation.
My proposed regulations merely require separate billing of the subsidy and service and prohibits the carrier from recouping more than the value of the subsidized equipment in the event that you decide to end your contract early. It is my hope that showing people exactly how much the contract costs them might encourage people to make the right choice. I don't want the government telling people what they have to do, but I do want them to ensure that people are not lied to.
But I fully agree with you that people have lost the common sense to live within their means. I think it's particularly clear as a result of our economic crash related to the housing industry.
On the note of your contract through December, do the math. You may break even quicker than you think. I left Verizon in August, 11 months into my contract. I had a 6 month break even period, so it was a win in the end. I keep telling everyone that I know about the ROI of switching, and I've had pretty good success with friends and coworkers.
If my wife and I were to end our contracts right now, we'd save $90/month switching to straight talk. A couple of problems. The up front cost of early termination fees and buying GSM phones when both of ours are cdma only usable on Verizon. Pretty sure we'd more than break even over the course of the next 10 to 11 months. We don't have enough saved to pay up front. My wife loves her iPhone 4 and she could probably find someone on Craigslist who would trade a GSM for her cdma. I have a dx2 and could probably get 50-75 for mine. To buy a comparable GSM phone would cost me atleast 200. This all is off the top of my head. Any pointers or tips on the cheapest and best way to do this?
Sent from my Eclipsed Droid X2 using Tapatalk 2
Juice3250 said:
If my wife and I were to end our contracts right now, we'd save $90/month switching to straight talk. A couple of problems. The up front cost of early termination fees and buying GSM phones when both of ours are cdma only usable on Verizon. Pretty sure we'd more than break even over the course of the next 10 to 11 months. We don't have enough saved to pay up front. My wife loves her iPhone 4 and she could probably find someone on Craigslist who would trade a GSM for her cdma. I have a dx2 and could probably get 50-75 for mine. To buy a comparable GSM phone would cost me atleast 200. This all is off the top of my head. Any pointers or tips on the cheapest and best way to do this?
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The aspect of having the financial resources to buy out your contract is a very common issue. Sometimes waiting out the contract is the best thing to do and obviously only you can ultimately make the right decision for your finanaces. If you make enough money, consider setting aside an extra amount of money every paycheck to get to the point where you can buy out your contracts. Maybe you can stop going out to eat for a month? Maybe you can skip the big trip with the kids over spring break? There's often a place to cut your budget if you feel it's the right priority.
I know that the Verizon iPhone 4 devices have GSM built in and it might even be unlocked already. However, unless jailbroken, I don't believe you can access the APN settings to use a different carrier. I'm not an iPhone expert, I'm all Android. I do think it's possible, and Verizon will likely give you a SIM unlock code if you need it and ask for it, just ask for the unlock code before you terminate your service.
I purchased a GSM Galaxy Nexus, unlocked when I switched. Then I bought a Nexus 4. Those are your best bets for going contract free, however there are other options. But the Nexus phones have the right bands to work with T-Mobile or AT&T, allowing you to hop MVNOs to chase the best price.
Start by reading this thread to get an understanding of prepaid smartphone service: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1455014
If you can't afford a Nexus phone, read this article for some ideas: http://androidandme.com/2012/12/reviews/best-unlocked-android-phone-for-any-budget-december-2012/
A great domestic source for a plethora of unlock phones: http://www.gsmnation.com/
Also, Amazon.com is a great source for unlocked phones.
Remember, you're paying less for service because you're not getting a phone subsidy. Expect to pay an exorbitant amount for your phone, but you will be rewarded by crazy cheap service!