Hello all,
I figured I would ask a question and see if this is being done or not, and if not if you think it would be helpful to the community.
I have started up an excel spreadsheet of ROMS with benchmarks done. I only did two so far, but I figured I would get the communities input first. If you guys dig the idea, let me know I will gladly be in charge of keeping it up to date as long as cooks or benchmarkers message me the stats so I can add to them. I figure this could be helpful to all.
Click Here to download the XLS File.
awesome. This hasn't been done, but the problem is, cooks are always improving their roms and making different versions. Also, not every rom is identical, and some include more programs then others. I think if you been around here, benchmark comparison with two roms isn't the best way to compare two roms. The beauty of benchmark comparison is if there are drastic differences in scores, then it might be a rom that might need some work. This would be a great idea, but just a warning to users looking at these scores, just because one score is better than the other score of another rom doesn't make it a better rom.
I completely agree, it is used with a word of caution...but it is good to see full benchmarking I think, comparisions side by side, atleast it is something I would like to see. As Dutty updated daily showing how improvements were done can be key, and it is easier in one place rather than 40 different rom threads.
udK 8 R2 Vega tested
I have tested just now udK 8 R2 Vega after a clean install. Hope this info helps
Didn't know how to provide the data so have filled in the Excel sheet and attached it.
I like this idea, but I think that we need to get some more information about what all the numbers in the benchmarks mean.
For instance, what tool is being used to benchmark? What do the numbers mean? How do the numbers relate to any type of real world application.
Alot of these benchmarks are just theory and aren't reflected in any practical sense. I'd hate to see the community striving to reach a benchmark that has no real meaning.
Personally, I have tried about a dozen ROMs and I don't really notice significant differences in speed. I don't really care about boot up speed because I am generally not rebooting, and I really don't care about the difference between 60 and 90 seconds when rebooting my device. When using and switching between applications I rarely notice signifcant differences, and if there are, I think they are maybe in the 5-10% range, barely signifcant.
So, before we begin a repository of benchmarks I think it is more important to establish what we are measuring, how we are measuring it, and what does it actually mean. I have seen some benchmarks that are waaay higher than others but those ROMs don't necessarily perform better.
my 2 cents.
Hey Everybody,
Before I get to the meat of this sandwich, I'd just like to say thanks to all the devs (both this site's makers and the contributing kind) who so graciously share their intellectual property. You guys F'in Rule!
I have a question that has been bothering me for a while now and even more so now that higher and higher-end phones keep emerging. Besides HTC, whom I am a huge fan of, I can't fathom why most phone developing companies build such sophisticated handsets and then only stick 512mb of RAM in them. I keep reading all these spec sheets (I read just about everyone I can get my hands on) and when it comes to the memory, each has only this seemingly minuscule amount. Am I missing something? How can you build a mobile device that has dual-core 1.2ghz processors, (forgive me for saying it) "Retina" type screens, soon to be 3D technology and only put this small amount of memory it? Is 512mb more than adequate? Would it kill them to put a full gig? I use a Dinc and have somewhere north of 140 apps (and this is after I deleted at least 20) and I was using (and still am to a lesser degree) a combination of App Categories, Smart Shortcuts. Multicon and maybe 10-15 widgets (google search X2, 2 news types, calendar, small HTC scrolling people widget, dictionary.com, powerstrip, plus the individual wifi & gps widgets X2 each). Before I deleted said apps and changed my widget use, I had a constant warning in my notification bar that read "Insufficient Memory." In checking my phone's file managers, neither my sd card nor the 8gigs of internal storage were even close to full. Can you see where I'm going with this? I feel like Jack Nicholson in the church scene at the end of Witches Of Eastwick... "is it a mistake!? Or did they do it to us, on purpose?! Cause I want to know!!" (I clearly know it is done on purpose, it's just an illustration) So to simply say it, Why the standard of 512mb and is this really enough?
P.S. Sorry for the Dennis Miller-like rant.
The complete answer is long...... so the short answer is --- the motherboard on a smart phone has to have many of the same things as a computer. MB/VDO/Sound/modem/rom/ram/memory (both internal and external) + music, camera ...etc.
Originally, voltage and power were the real limiting factors plus physical size, as time went on (from-2001-2009) things got smaller and smaller and faster and lower voltage. It has taken until 2008 -2009 to reach the technology to have 1 gig ram, but since development leads market (when we see it) by 18 months we do not see until 2011, some of the new phones this year will have 1gig ram.
That, and most things that need a lot of ram are games, and most people do not use the phone for that. Plus, more ram more processing more power usage then mad customers claiming their phone battery sux. Also, there were not many apps that need a lot of ram, so build for the need, as the need increases then the phone will be updated accordingly. go to remember we at XDA are 1% of the users not the 99% most do not care about knowing whether their phone is really working right or not, just as long as they can have it do the useless things they want it to do.......... bottom line, until marketing sees improving the tech side of the phone will improve sales it doesn't happen. That's how it works...sorry to say
I hear everything that you are saying and it all makes perfect sense. Just out of curiosity, what, other than games, would use a heavy amount of RAM on a phone? I don't really play many games, I have a couple but mainly stick to Angry Birds if the occasion actually calls for one. To clarify what little I know about RAM, it is the memory a device/comp uses in order to read/store bits of info for quick use at a later time. Would it not help the phone's overall general processing, like switching between apps and the like, to have a great deal more of it?
You can tryout "system panel" at the apps store, this will graph out the usage of the ram and so you where the memory and cpu resources are going. This will probably answer your curiosity better. But, yes more is always better...... I have 32 gigs on my desktop (LOL) yeah i am a junkie but wow program are so fast now.
I don't play game either but there are some of the role playing games that are real memory hogs Neocore is a game we use to test the phone for speed. Just like a computer, the 2 things that will make a difference....... more ram better video card. Or, in this case vdo-chip. That is why (imho) the dual cores are coming 1 core for video and one for everything else.
I know this has been discussed off and on in the Sensation vs Galaxy II thread, but I would like to have a more focused discussion on this.
It seems to me that the the async cores could be a plausible reason for the lowe (for example) quadrant scores. What do you guys think? I mean, how can mt4g and desire HD, overclocked, score as high as the stock sensation? I am currently a graduation student at the University of Notre Dame. I am pursing a degree in nueroscience...so this is not my field of study. But I am very good friends with a few of the computer science and tech Phds up here, and I asked them about this. One of them is a avid phone tech geek, and he said that this is exactly the reason for the low benchmarks...even with smartbench. The reasons he rambled off are over my head (again I'm nueroscience), and he talked to me about for at least an hour. His conclusion was that at the very least the modified A8 snapdragons are as powerful, or very close to the A9's on the Galaxy S II. He said the async actually should allow the phone to perform better, sync individual cores can be assigned individual task, thus allowing increased multitasking and prevent a bottleneck at the processor level.
He also mentioned some of samsung's implantations in the phone, such as the ridiculously high read speed on the sd card (artifically made, faster than most solid state drives...somewhere in the 400 mb/s) seem to have been intended for the purpose of benchmarks, due to such programing would not benefit real world use. Smart move by samsung, though, as it makes for pretty numbers and fanfare.
I mentioned the browser, for example, difference and he said this is the result of software alone. As such, HTC will remedy this. The graphic excel is great on the Galaxy S II, but if HTC doesn't match this...Ice Cream will. Still...in my opinion...great thinking on samsung's part in this aspect (even if it will be short lived)
For the purpose of this argument, lets put aside the broswer examples (which does not speak for the actually processing power of the phone, and will not be a long lasting advantage). Also, there is debate around the camera, but again we are talking processing power here. Beyond these two examples, I have not seen a comparision in which the galaxy S II was faster in opening apps, or flying between various parts of the UI.
Leave out the sam dudes (sorry, don't remember full name) comparisions. Beyond the fact that they focus on the browser, etc, there also seems to be some controversy around that.
Anyway, I wanted to see what you guys think.
Take care, and enjoy the discussion.
I am no genius when it comes to chip technologies, but I have been thinking that maybe the async cores of the sensation are not running on full throttle with those benchmarks.
BlueGoldAce said:
I know this has been discussed off and on in the Sensation vs Galaxy II thread, but I would like to have a more focused discussion on this.
It seems to me that the the async cores could be a plausible reason for the lowe (for example) quadrant scores. What do you guys think? I mean, how can mt4g and desire HD, overclocked, score as high as the stock sensation? I am currently a graduation student at the University of Notre Dame. I am pursing a degree in nueroscience...so this is not my field of study. But I am very good friends with a few of the computer science and tech Phds up here, and I asked them about this. One of them is a avid phone tech geek, and he said that this is exactly the reason for the low benchmarks...even with smartbench. The reasons he rambled off are over my head (again I'm nueroscience), and he talked to me about for at least an hour. His conclusion was that at the very least the modified A8 snapdragons are as powerful, or very close to the A9's on the Galaxy S II. He said the async actually should allow the phone to perform better, sync individual cores can be assigned individual task, thus allowing increased multitasking and prevent a bottleneck at the processor level.
He also mentioned some of samsung's implantations in the phone, such as the ridiculously high read speed on the sd card (artifically made, faster than most solid state drives...somewhere in the 400 mb/s) seem to have been intended for the purpose of benchmarks, due to such programing would not benefit real world use. Smart move by samsung, though, as it makes for pretty numbers and fanfare.
I mentioned the browser, for example, difference and he said this is the result of software alone. As such, HTC will remedy this. The graphic excel is great on the Galaxy S II, but if HTC doesn't match this...Ice Cream will. Still...in my opinion...great thinking on samsung's part in this aspect (even if it will be short lived)
For the purpose of this argument, lets put aside the broswer examples (which does not speak for the actually processing power of the phone, and will not be a long lasting advantage). Also, there is debate around the camera, but again we are talking processing power here. Beyond these two examples, I have not seen a comparision in which the galaxy S II was faster in opening apps, or flying between various parts of the UI.
Leave out the sam dudes (sorry, don't remember full name) comparisions. Beyond the fact that they focus on the browser, etc, there also seems to be some controversy around that.
Anyway, I wanted to see what you guys think.
Take care, and enjoy the discussion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To put it simply either the Sensation is less powerful than the other dual core devices or HTC have done something wrong with the implementation of the hardware and/or the software.
Benchmarking software like Smartbench 2011 works just fine with multiple cores as does the version of Android that is shipped on the Sensation.
So the question is this, if the Sensation is more powerful than the benchmarks show, as some people believe it is, then why would they expect it to reach maximum performance when a user is going about their normal everyday tasks but not when a benchmark program is burning up the phone?
Obviously I'm looking at the phone as a whole since we can't just test the CPU alone but when talking about the CPU itself, like I said in another thread I always expected the Qualcomm dual-core offering to be No. 4 when it came to raw power. Behind Tegra 2, Exynos, and OMAP.
However it is strange how much further behind it scores in benchmarks that don't involve the screen. Is it possible that HTC used cheaper components in the phone to maximise profits and this is showing in the benchmarks?
I was set on getting the HTC Incredible S until the bootloader proved to be too much (three months now). One thing that was strange to see with that phone was that it was consistently benchmarking around the 1500 mark on Quadrant when last year's HTC Desire HD (Same SoC) would benchmark at around 2000 or more.
In other tests that are CPU rather then GPU based the Incredible S was behind again:
http://www.cnet.com.au/htc-incredible-s-339310045.htm
Perhaps it isn't different components but a change made by HTC to reduce CPU power but to increase battery life.
I don't know what it is but starting with the Incredible S new HTC phones have been getting lower scores expected even against earlier HTC phones using the same SoC.
That idea is quite plausible.
But wouldn't it be qualcom who makes the processor? Unless you mean the components that bridge the rest of the phone together.
But could it also be the design/intent of the processor? I thinking like this. Single core processors are ample fast for the majority of android use. But when one is multitasking while performing other task, such as web browsing, a single core can struggle. So what if HTC designed the cores as such that allow to process independently. The theory is that maybe one of the cores is maxing out while the other is doing very little. This would mean that qualcom put restriction on the hardware so that when you are doing something like, say browsing a flash filled site, you still have ample power to perform other task. Does that make sense? This is a very basic version of the reason the Professor gave to me. He specializes in microchips, such as we see on mobile phones.
He also noted that the currents phones are nothing compared to what technology exisit, but won't be release anytime soon. Makes sense, keep slowly uping the phones = more profits. There is nothing to gain in releasing a super phone that will last 5 or + years.
asynce is quite like your professor has explained to you one processor can be at 1.2ghz and the other be from 0 to 1.2ghz depending on the load
well, I am still getting the sensation when sim free handsets becomes available. I am upgrading from a touch hd wm 6.1 so I dont think a dual core will dissapoint me no matter buggy
Overall...I understand the theory very well. I am just giving him credit. I had assumed this, based of some of my reading, but I didn't post since I don't have the credientials to make these claims...but he does. Now if you need some advice involving the nervous system, I'm you guy. Of course...I only have a bachelors...still a few years away from my PhD. Maybe I could then follow that up with a degree in computer science, you know essential make a career out of being a student .
Imho, htc become very greedy and they basically dont give a crap about the benchmarks and reviews anymore. This is why they locked the bootloaders and probably why they clocked down the processor to 1.2. In a way they must be thinking that they have proven themselves in the industry with quality products and they already have a customer base that who cares about their reputation not the benchmark scores. So I am hoping the petition for the locked bootloders and their initial sales will indicate that they are not alone in market anymore and people actually care about the preformance of their devices. May be they will get back into the game once again.
ceroglu said:
Imho, htc become very greedy and they basically dont give a crap about the benchmarks and reviews anymore. This is why they locked the bootloaders and probably why they clocked down the processor to 1.2. In a way they must be thinking that they have proven themselves in the industry with quality products and they already have a customer base that who cares about their reputation not the benchmark scores. So I am hoping the petition for the locked bootloders and their initial sales will indicate that they are not alone in market anymore and people actually care about the preformance of their devices. May be they will get back into the game once again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Benchmarks are not everything. If a piece of hardware can perform as well, or even better, but doesn't display a long bar in quadrant, who cares? HTC Sensation does beat the Galaxy II in linpack. Yes it has a slightly lower FPS, but it has a higher resolution.
I doubt benchmarks are at the forefront of there minds. The majority of the market doesn't even know what quadrant is.
BlueGoldAce said:
That idea is quite plausible.
But wouldn't it be qualcom who makes the processor? Unless you mean the components that bridge the rest of the phone together.
But could it also be the design/intent of the processor? I thinking like this. Single core processors are ample fast for the majority of android use. But when one is multitasking while performing other task, such as web browsing, a single core can struggle. So what if HTC designed the cores as such that allow to process independently. The theory is that maybe one of the cores is maxing out while the other is doing very little. This would mean that qualcom put restriction on the hardware so that when you are doing something like, say browsing a flash filled site, you still have ample power to perform other task. Does that make sense? This is a very basic version of the reason the Professor gave to me. He specializes in microchips, such as we see on mobile phones.
He also noted that the currents phones are nothing compared to what technology exisit, but won't be release anytime soon. Makes sense, keep slowly uping the phones = more profits. There is nothing to gain in releasing a super phone that will last 5 or + years.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, I was thinking HTC. Qualcomm may make the asych processor but how it is actually setup and how the software and other hardware components function with it is up to HTC. However it is possible that the design or feedback system is faulty so only one core is working or the second core never goes beyond 50% of the speed of the first core. This could also be down to configuration/other components in the phone, which would be down to HTC.
I don't think that Qualcomm or HTC would have deliberately limited the way the cores can function in the way that you suggest (beyond making them async, which can most likely be turned off too). As I understand it doing something like playing a flash video only uses one core anyway (due to the nature of flash). With a phone like the Sensation this should mean that even if core 1 is at 1.2GHz, core 2 could be at 300 MHz or whatever is required to fetch your email, run the phone, Wi-Fi, etc. With other dual-core implementations both cores will run at 1.2GHz, which will also allow you to do other stuff. The benefit of having async cores is supposed to be battery life.
As for holding back stuff, this is how consumer electronics firms work. If you could get access you could go and look at the next few iterations of products which exist now in various forms and which will be released over the next few years unless there is major disruption to a market by something unexpected.
DuoM said:
Nope, I was thinking HTC. Qualcomm may make the asych processor but how it is actually setup and how the software and other hardware components function with it is up to HTC. However it is possible that the design or feedback system is faulty so only one core is working or the second core never goes beyond 50% of the speed of the first core. This could also be down to configuration/other components in the phone, which would be down to HTC.
I don't think that Qualcomm or HTC would have deliberately limited the way the cores can function in the way that you suggest (beyond making them async, which can most likely be turned off too). As I understand it doing something like playing a flash video only uses one core anyway (due to the nature of flash). With a phone like the Sensation this should mean that even if core 1 is at 1.2GHz, core 2 could be at 300 MHz or whatever is required to fetch your email, run the phone, Wi-Fi, etc. With other dual-core implementations both cores will run at 1.2GHz, which will also allow you to do other stuff. The benefit of having async cores is supposed to be battery life.
As for holding back stuff, this is how consumer electronics firms work. If you could get access you could go and look at the next few iterations of products which exist now in various forms and which will be released over the next few years unless there is major disruption to a market by something unexpected.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you are positive the benchmarks are reading it correctly? The async cores are new, so the benchmarks may not fully utilize them.
I hope you are wrong about the quality of the phone, beyond the processor.
Sense could be the problem it as well. I know with the Evo, take off sense and you score in the 1500s, with sense stock you get 1000.
Been saying this for the longest also to mention since gingerbread using ext 4 with Samsung internal memory about 16 gigs to can easily make quadrant ridiculous high by getting a ridiculously fast sd card partition ext4 and get data2ext 4 on the sd card. Samsung could of did the same with their rom with their internal memory and rom. All is theory but in test we really won't know unless we test to computers. Which we can perform better test on.
Sent from my demonSPEED Glacier using XDA Premium App
BlueGoldAce said:
So you are positive the benchmarks are reading it correctly? The async cores are new, so the benchmarks may not fully utilize them.
I hope you are wrong about the quality of the phone, beyond the processor.
Sense could be the problem it as well. I know with the Evo, take off sense and you score in the 1500s, with sense stock you get 1000.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe that they are reading it correctly but that doesn't mean that the phone is performing correctly. The benchmarks just fire off a number of threads, in the case of Smartbench 2011 four threads, which should engage both processors since the benchmarks are designed to stress the phone.
If that doesn't get both cores to respond, what will?
Sense could be the problem. It just gets heavier and heavier. I know that some people are buying this phone because of Sense but for me it is just bloatware now. Some things it adds are nice but it seems that instead of improving the areas where it adds true functionality e.g. email and SMS, HTC have added more eye candy.
I didn't know about the EVO benchmarks though.
Killbynature said:
Been saying this for the longest also to mention since gingerbread using ext 4 with Samsung internal memory about 16 gigs to can easily make quadrant ridiculous high by getting a ridiculously fast sd card partition ext4 and get data2ext 4 on the sd card. Samsung could of did the same with their rom with their internal memory and rom. All is theory but in test we really won't know unless we test to computers. Which we can perform better test on.
Sent from my demonSPEED Glacier using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The author of Smartbench was in another thread, I don't know if you saw his comments. Anyway he said that he had reduced the weighting of I/O in Smartbench to prevent fast I/O for skewing the results so much.
Also because the results are so much lower than expected he is also going to take a look at the Sensation just to be sure that his software is reporting correctly with that phone.
DuoM said:
I believe that they are reading it correctly but that doesn't mean that the phone is performing correctly. The benchmarks just fire off a number of threads, in the case of Smartbench 2011 four threads, which should engage both processors since the benchmarks are designed to stress the phone.
If that doesn't get both cores to respond, what will?
Sense could be the problem. It just gets heavier and heavier. I know that some people are buying this phone because of Sense but for me it is just bloatware now. Some things it adds are nice but it seems that instead of improving the areas where it adds true functionality e.g. email and SMS, HTC have added more eye candy.
I didn't know about the EVO benchmarks though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bull****.All you guys blame Sense for lags etc,but it's not the case.Not completely at least.
Try a Desire HD.Single core an all as it is,Sense 3 runs like heaven,nicer than Sense 2-2.1 .So Sense doesn't **** up your phone that much.
If you want my opinion,wait till some respectable devs get their hands on the phone(Not that devs who already have it aren't respectable,but we can't know until we have something custom made ).Then,if and when they start tinkering with it,getting it to perform as it should,we'd see everything work better.Maybe it's something in the kernel limiting the CPU or something.And even GPU benchmarks aren't fair,as HTC's devices' GPUs always underperform with the default Ondemand governor.It would only be fair if we benchmarked both phones(GS2 and Sensation) rooted,on stock roms with performance governor.Only then we'll be comparing fairly.
Also,we could wait until the authors of Linpack update it to support multi-threading to further test the CPU.
I can't help but get the feeling this thread is grasping at straws somewhat. It could simply be a case of the Sensation not being as fast as people believed it would be. We shall see if the developer of Smartbench finds changes he needs to make, the next version should tell us where the Sensation stands and if this Async argument holds water.
DuoM said:
Also because the results are so much lower than expected he is also going to take a look at the Sensation just to be sure that his software is reporting correctly with that phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct.
And here are the series of charts I have put together so far:
This one shows the progress of Productivity Index over time: http://bit.ly/lWC3gb
And this one shows the progress of Games Index: http://bit.ly/jBu8Lx
Interesting? May be. Perhaps you guys can tell me what you see in these.
I will also plot similar charts for the individual tests as well (this helps because each tests are supposed to stress the CPU/GPU in its own unique ways). I've looked at it briefly, but I can already see few strange results within. As soon as I find more time, I'll post more articles on the above site.
EDIT: Fixed the link to the games index page.
What is is maybe what is...
Killbynature said:
Been saying this for the longest also to mention since gingerbread using ext 4 with Samsung internal memory about 16 gigs to can easily make quadrant ridiculous high by getting a ridiculously fast sd card partition ext4 and get data2ext 4 on the sd card. Samsung could of did the same with their rom with their internal memory and rom. All is theory but in test we really won't know unless we test to computers. Which we can perform better test on.
Sent from my demonSPEED Glacier using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, initial reports were that because the dual cores are so ne that the quadrant trackers could not "properly" measure. HOWEVER, no mater what review I have seen so far comparing the Galaxy and the Sensation, the Sensation ALWAYS looses. If a top of the line sports car cna go from 0-60 at .X seconds faster than the other it is something that is going to be touted and used as a benchmark. Therefore, i don't buy that the quadrant scored don't really matter all the time.
Now, more to your point about Samsungs speed. It seems like HTC, by the way they allocated memory, may have done the phone a speed disservice.
"The HTC Sensation measures in at 4.96 x 2.57 x 0.44 inches and 5.22oz is what it weighs. You’ll find that the unibody metal chassis combined with the soft-touch plastic inserts make for a rather comfortable phone to hold, and nice to rub up against your beard if you’ve got one. So smooth! The back is creak-free, the entirety of the battery cover coming off at once, the battery, SIM card, and microSD card popping in and out without an issue like they truly should.
Flaws in this whole situation include the fact that while the Galaxy S II pairs its 1.2GHz dual-core with 1GB of RAM, the HTC Sensation uses just 768MB. Samsung’s device has 16GB of memory packed in, while HTC makes due with just 1GB. There’s an 8GB microSD card in there, but you can add a bunch more memory to the GSII the same way if you want. Davies notes the truth: “here’s just no way that even a fast microSDHC card can be as quick as NANDFlash connected directly to the logic board, and that leaves the Sensation at a speed disadvantage.”
http://androidcommunity.com/htc-sensation-review-via-slashgear-20110523/
Acei said:
Correct.
And here are the series of charts I have put together so far:
This one shows the progress of Productivity Index over time: http://bit.ly/lWC3gb
And this one shows the progress of Games Index: http://bit.ly/lWC3gb
Interesting? May be. Perhaps you guys can tell me what you see in these.
I will also plot similar charts for the individual tests as well (this helps because each tests are supposed to stress the CPU/GPU in its own unique ways). I've looked at it briefly, but I can already see few strange results within. As soon as I find more time, I'll post more articles on the above site.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for this. What I see in this is that the Sensation is simply not as powerful as the Galaxy S II.
BTW Sensation is a released device in Europe and the later batch of scores you are seeing are from the final released device. I believe that the UK got it on Thursday the 19th of May but I it is in several countries now.
I also noticed that you posted this score: "Samsung Galaxy S2 at 1GHz: 3229", do you have figures for it at 1.2GHz?
The links you posted both go to the Productivity Index, do you have the link for the Games Index?
Thanks again.
This may be a little random but I felt like people might be interested. Went through Best Buy today and of course browsed the Android tablets. Both the TF201 and TF300 have the 4.1.1 update installed, and their TF700 had 4.0.3. 30 update. I ran quadrant on all of them and, interestingly, the TF700 had the highest score in the low 4000's (around 4200). The prime and 300 got high to mid 3000s respectively (about 3700 - 3500) which is honestly pretty terrible for a Quad core slab. All of the tablets suffered from ****ty I/O scores, the highest being 1200 on the Infinity. So all our hopes of Asus improving the I/O flaws with their stock OTA are almost certainly dashed. As a final aside, these are just floor models and results will vary from tablet to tablet, but it just seems like the 4.1.1 update is going to be underwhelming for the most part.
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wow, i was hoping JB will fix or at least workaround the I/O issue.. for the quadrant score, i don't believe we can compare both tablets as each is running at a different CPU speed even with JB on the TF300 (1.2 Ghz vs 1.6 Ghz)...
Benchmarks are not always indicative of real-world performance. We all know that the hardware cannot be improved by a firmware update, BUT, things can be done to mask the slow I/O, so the benchmarks aren't so important...
Besides, if you are really concerned with I/O being a bottleneck, you will most likely be installing a custom ROM anyhow, which, as we've already seen (with Zeus) can mask the I/O issues (if it even affects your daily use to begin with).
In my case, it's never been a *real* problem to begin with, as I'm not normally downloading a huge file while doing other things. If I'm going to download a huge file, it certainly wouldn't be from my tablet anyway (I would use a hardwired laptop/PC to download said file). Tablets aren't meant to be used for downloading huge files... yes, it can be done, but it's not something that would be recommended.
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
ka1z0ku said:
This may be a little random but I felt like people might be interested. Went through Best Buy today and of course browsed the Android tablets. Both the TF201 and TF300 have the 4.1.1 update installed, and their TF700 had 4.0.3. 30 update. I ran quadrant on all of them and, interestingly, the TF700 had the highest score in the low 4000's (around 4200). The prime and 300 got high to mid 3000s respectively (about 3700 - 3500) which is honestly pretty terrible for a Quad core slab. All of the tablets suffered from ****ty I/O scores, the highest being 1200 on the Infinity. So all our hopes of Asus improving the I/O flaws with their stock OTA are almost certainly dashed. As a final aside, these are just floor models and results will vary from tablet to tablet, but it just seems like the 4.1.1 update is going to be underwhelming for the most part.
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Multiple discussion and in my opinion no true conclusion.
As jtrosky indicated benchmarks are number. It stresses system and measures the maximum capability. Just to put into simple context. If you are benchmark test believer, my Antutu score without any special tweak or custom rom other than turned off bloatwares and installed browser2ram, I get 13000+ Antutu total benchmark score. One can argue that Antutu total score if reflective of overall real life experience therefore, this tablet performs the best.
Alternative would be just as many are concerned, just pick the worst benchmark score subsection or component and conclude that the reflective of real life performance. This approach is technically not a bad idea as you basically making an assumption of bottleneck, which max out the entire system performance even before rest of the component can show their true power.
However, one flaw for applying this to IO. That the system is not sequential linear operation i.e. IO -> RAM -> Cache -> CPU/GPU -> Cache -> RAM -> IO then next cycle of operation. It is much more complex than this, and if it was truly above, no system can perform well in current days standard because no nand device is faster than the RAM, and no RAM is faster than the Cache. Also, why would desktop with much slower hard drive perform so well? (assuming other components are good).
Just as an example, instead of doing above one at a time and go back to IO, if you do two operations before you write back to IO, then what happens? You didn't really change nand writing speed, but you can potentially double the overall experience. Obviously, in order to do this RAM and Cache must have enough space to allow two operations before writing back, and also RAM and Cache as well as actual CPU/GPU processing has to be more than 2x faster than IO.
In any event, I am just bringing up an example that benchmark especially picking one component that is relatively lower end of processing chain is not the entire reflection of the system performance. You can do several things (in theory) to make overall performance increase.
My understanding of all these concern came up initially because of
1. Frequent Application Not responding
2. System lag/stutter while downloading/installing applications from Google Play
3. System lag/stutter while downloading file over wifi
Based on my experience (I had infinity from the day #1 release in US, and returned it after 4 weeks and now back), I had significant ANR initially which lead me to seek for alternative device. #3 is well demonstrated on Anandtech video. #2 is most of us experience at one point for sure.
However, currently on my stock rom with bloatware turned off browser2ram installed,
#1 is pretty much completely gone. And Prime user's forum have several comments stating significant improvement specifically about ANRs.
#2 is also reportedly improved according to some comment in prime user's forum after JB.
#3 is I have proven with my video on other thread either because of browser2ram or more recent firmware update, it had significantly improved/eliminated what Anandtech showed back in July.
We should be more concerned if IO issue was actually at RAM level because only way to fix it would be Cache but that has such small space to work. However, if we were to believe benchmark, Antutu RAM score on Infinity is better than that of Galaxy Note 10.1
Now I am not saying though ASUS will indeed fix these. Even there may be potential solution, they simply may not do so... So if you are having truly IO related issue, and after JB you don't see the improvement to the degree of your satisfaction, you may have to use custom rom. If you don't have Infinity yet, and considering buy it from place you can return after Jellybean update and use the system on your own for daily use and see if you can notice any issue because there is a chance that you may not even see the problem. So in the end what is that you are trying to fix (if there is still an issue).
The benchmark score? Or what deemed to be IO based issue? I am pretty sure it is latter and ask yourself so what's the IO issue that you have/had? Because to be honest, again I had issues originally but I no longer have any of those. Yes. I can crash my system by downloading 1GB system in background over wifi and try to play Horn, but I can crash my PC when encoding MP4 and try to play high end graphic game. It really depends on what you want to do.
Awesome post housashen!!! IV never had I/o issues and IV downloaded 6 torrents simultaneously and never had an issue browsing at the same time. This is my 4th infinity (returned the others for build issues) and never had I/o issues on any of them.
I think this whole io thing is overblown and I also believe we have by far the best tablet on the market.
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jtrosky said:
Benchmarks are not always indicative of real-world performance. We all know that the hardware cannot be improved by a firmware update, BUT, things can be done to mask the slow I/O, so the benchmarks aren't so important...
Besides, if you are really concerned with I/O being a bottleneck, you will most likely be installing a custom ROM anyhow, which, as we've already seen (with Zeus) can mask the I/O issues (if it even affects your daily use to begin with).
In my case, it's never been a *real* problem to begin with, as I'm not normally downloading a huge file while doing other things. If I'm going to download a huge file, it certainly wouldn't be from my tablet anyway (I would use a hardwired laptop/PC to download said file). Tablets aren't meant to be used for downloading huge files... yes, it can be done, but it's not something that would be recommended.
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
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While I agree tabs weren't originally designed for this, I will say many people are using the tab/dock combo more like a net book/laptop now and days. So I can see the desire for these features (large file download). For instance I'm at the airport and realize crap, forgot to put a movie on tab for my flight. So I use my bionic and tether 4g goodness and try to dl a movie for the flight. It takes well over 2 hrs to dl because the I/O limits to about 200k/sec. That is an issue for flash memory. I should honestly just start downloading to my phone and then transfer the file to my tab (light bulb just went on) or remember to do it before I leave.
I would like to call bull right now, first of all let's stop over reaching with this tablet. This tablet is by far the best tablet on the market right now no matter what operating system the tablet carries. Is it perfect? No, it has bugs and there are some defective units out there which is expected from any tech company. Android is trying their best to catch up with how far the hardware has progressed since honeycomb so there will be browser issues and other bugs. Saying that the IO issue will never be resolved is malarkey especially with people saying the Zeus Rom made some serious improvements. I don't expect for an 8 gb file to transfer over in 30 seconds. Not gonna happen on a tablet. Even though they say it houses a quad core only an idiot would expect i5 or i7 or even AMD Phenom performance from a tablet so thin and light. Even so Android is just getting it together with JB concerning getting the OS to match the hardware. I have had a few tablets and by far the TF700 is the best one of them all. I have had apps force close and other bugs but that is to be expected when the hardware is more advanced than the OS. ICS is just not optimized for a tablet with specs like this. Will JB solve all the issues with this tablet? Probably not but I don't expect to have a bug free electronic device to begin with.....its just comes with the territory especially from something so thin and light with so much under the hood. Lets come back to reality and just enjoy the tablet for what it is...a tablet and not the cure all of all electronic devices. I know some will say the tablet costs 499 or even 599 and I believe its worth every penny I spent.....I just don't expect it to perform like a laptop or desktop I expect it to perform like a portable device and we all know portable devices are buggy because they are portable. Those that have this tablet could afford it otherwise we would have gotten a lappy but we didn't we got a tabby. IJS
anaviel said:
I would like to call bull right now, first of all let's stop over reaching with this tablet. This tablet is by far the best tablet on the market right now no matter what operating system the tablet carries. Is it perfect? No, it has bugs and there are some defective units out there which is expected from any tech company. Android is trying their best to catch up with how far the hardware has progressed since honeycomb so there will be browser issues and other bugs. Saying that the IO issue will never be resolved is malarkey especially with people saying the Zeus Rom made some serious improvements. I don't expect for an 8 gb file to transfer over in 30 seconds. Not gonna happen on a tablet. Even though they say it houses a quad core only an idiot would expect i5 or i7 or even AMD Phenom performance from a tablet so thin and light. Even so Android is just getting it together with JB concerning getting the OS to match the hardware. I have had a few tablets and by far the TF700 is the best one of them all. I have had apps force close and other bugs but that is to be expected when the hardware is more advanced than the OS. ICS is just not optimized for a tablet with specs like this. Will JB solve all the issues with this tablet? Probably not but I don't expect to have a bug free electronic device to begin with.....its just comes with the territory especially from something so thin and light with so much under the hood. Lets come back to reality and just enjoy the tablet for what it is...a tablet and not the cure all of all electronic devices. I know some will say the tablet costs 499 or even 599 and I believe its worth every penny I spent.....I just don't expect it to perform like a laptop or desktop I expect it to perform like a portable device and we all know portable devices are buggy because they are portable. Those that have this tablet could afford it otherwise we would have gotten a lappy but we didn't we got a tabby. IJS
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I think my and a lot of people's argument to this would be why is it that phones which come in much smaller packages have better I/O rates and performance. Why can a 7" tablet. Zeus didn't fix the problem it masked it. I'm not saying the I/O issues are a deal breaker for me but using a part that probably costs $.50 more and could drastically improve the tab makes people wonder why they didn't just get better flash memory. Sure it's a great tab, but I don't think people have unrealistic expectations. When the I/O scores (and performance of file transfers etc) is well below even phones released a year ago it means the engineers overlooked something big.And this is why everyone is complaining.