Related
Been charging my phone for more than 3-4 hours now and it's still not fully charged. Its connected to my PC thru the issued USB. I don't think that's normal. Wondering if you guys are having this issue?
I've noticed that too. Don't know if the wall charger will do better. Probably not, but it might deliver more power. I'll give it a try tonight
It's a big battery, but it does take quite a long time on the wall charger, and quite a long time plus forever via USB.
A big battery but drains in a day with normal use. I though Super AMOLED was suppose to be very power conservative. I see on the battery status that the display is the main source of use.
In the Android 1Ghz world, the longevity of the Captivate battery is pretty darn good.
Just don't forget you're in the new and shiny "I just got this ****, check it out!" phase. That phase has been scientifically proven to shorten battery life by up to 80% for the first few days/weeks.
Croak said:
In the Android 1Ghz world, the longevity of the Captivate battery is pretty darn good.
Just don't forget you're in the new and shiny "I just got this ****, check it out!" phase. That phase has been scientifically proven to shorten battery life by up to 80% for the first few days/weeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if there was a quote of the week this would be it. i use my phone so much the first few weeks.
I do admit I've been playing with it so much, I just thought it would surprise me by having enough juice left by the end of the day. I just hope it charges faster than 3-5 hours.
try charging it in one of the back usb ports if your using one in the front
sometimes the front puts out less power
I agree, the battery does take an abnormally long time to charge. It sure is fun discharging it though!
why not just use a wall charger it would be waay faster wouldnt it
Wall charger is slow for me.
From my Samsung Captivate
I've found that USB charging from either the back of a computer or a "higher output" port on a laptop charges faster for me at least on my iPhone 3G.
Wall charging has always been faster for previous phones as well. Strange that this isn't the case for the Captivate
Battery Life
Croak said:
In the Android 1Ghz world, the longevity of the Captivate battery is pretty darn good.
Just don't forget you're in the new and shiny "I just got this ****, check it out!" phase. That phase has been scientifically proven to shorten battery life by up to 80% for the first few days/weeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was the question around the office today. How's the battery life? TBH, I don't know. It's only been 24+ hours since I got the phone. I've enabled WiFi, Bluetooth, and GPS tonight to see how the battery drains.
sm3llychef said:
I've found that USB charging from either the back of a computer or a "higher output" port on a laptop charges faster for me at least on my iPhone 3G.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On the many previous smartphones that I have had, I've found that the wall charger gives the best charge. Charging on from a USB port can take much longer.
NOTE: You can only mount the SD card properly, if you plug it into a native USB port (the back of your pc). Can it be that native USB voltage requirement?
Charging on your PC's usb is slower than wall charging. It takes a better half of a day to charge my Cowon S9 via PC, and 1-2 hours via wall charger.
Ive also heard that it takes time to "break in" these batteries. After a week or two see if you are having the same charge times.
I've not had this problem as charging time surprised me with how quick it was. I went from 30% to full in a couple of hours. I was not expecting a message to unplug the charger when the battery got full. I am used to plugging in the charger and taking it off only when I am leaving the house. Id it a problem leaving this phone on charge? I think not but then why the message?
My phone was at 7percent at 11am and by the tIME 2am rolled around it was only at 92. 3 hours and still not a full charge? I think there is something wrong. Lol
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
jromney said:
NOTE: You can only mount the SD card properly, if you plug it into a native USB port (the back of your pc). Can it be that native USB voltage requirement?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I noticed that too. i was like WHY ISNT IT MOUNTING! but then i swapped to a native port on the rear and voila!
I have noticed that mine charges fine with the wall mount and slower through PC. I actually tested GPS and Nav for 4 hours while driving from out of town using the car charger. The car charger couldn't keep up and the battery was still slowly discharging.
-J Chao
On wall charger mine is taking about 7 hours to charge from 0% - 100%, and with pretty normal use it's down to 0% again in about 5-6 hours. Swapped my battery for a new one and still getting the same results. I'd like to swap out my device but there aren't any available at AT&T.
How long does it typically take to fully charge your phone from about 30% or so? I have noticed that it takes really long to charge, I have had mine on charge for 4 or 5 hours and its only at 88%.
Usually about 3 hours here.
Sent from my Darkginger CM7 Google Nexus S!
Same, I would say about 3 hours.
I'm going to let it run down and time it. Something is definitely not right. If I put it charging when I go to bed it is not fully charged by the time I wake up.
Thread moved to Q&A.
Well the default charger is 0.15A right ?
I am using my Galaxy Tab's charger which is 2A and i get a full charge in like 1 hour.
The charger that came with it is a .7A I am using a 1A though.
I think I might have found the problem. The app "craigsphone" installed a service that was using 79% cpu. I tried killing it and it would come back. So I uninstalled it, now just have to test out to see if it charges faster.
I bought my phone on it's release day, and up until about a week or two ago, it's taken a VERY long time to charge up -literally all night long. But for some reason, it seems to have started charging faster here recently. It now only takes about 3 hours to charge up, from being near completely dead. I don't understand why this has apparently happened, but I'm not complaining lol.
-of course, I'm speaking of charging via the included wall charger. USB charging still takes all night for me
ikarma,
it depends on your charger.
I have 2 chargers:
- Original from HTC Desire
- Unknown brand
Both produce output 1000 mA (1A).
The time to charge from 4% to 100%:
- HTC charger = 4 hours
- Unknown brand = 6 hours
Here what I have done to this finding:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=917075
So again, it depends on your charger!
Probably my unknown brand does not really produce 1000 mA.
Bottom line, there are different quality chargers out there! Choose wisely
sedde said:
Well the default charger is 0.15A right ?
I am using my Galaxy Tab's charger which is 2A and i get a full charge in like 1 hour.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, I'm dreaming of 1 hour...
Let me know where to buy such charger?
My default charger needs 4h15Min
Hi I just bought a used galaxy note 10.1
it did not come with a usb wall charger
after 7 hours of charging
a search said its my usb charger
I was wounding if it is normal for this to take over 24 hours from 0% battery on a charger like this
that only gives 0.5 A
or am I doing damage to my battery by leaving on charge for longer than 24 hours
its like a incredibly slow trickle charge
right now its almost full it claims but im not sure if it will ever be full at this rate
I thought maybe 24 hours but now its 1 hour past 24
I was trying to (calibrate the battery )
so I let it die to 0%
I turned the device on half way though charging
noticed it had an x though the batter so I freaked out and tryed plugging and unplugging it like 10 times
I was wounding how bad that might be for the memory of my battery to do something like that
because I unplugged it before it got to 100% when i was attempting to calibrate it
Im not sure how sensitive these batteries are
but your input would be much appreciated
You could use an off brand iPad charger with your USB cable to help it charge faster your typical phone charger will only give off 0.5 ma, so look for one for a tablet
Sent from my SM-P905 using Tapatalk
only one thing to your problem with charging, replace the new one usb cable and your problem will be solving
rohmanch said:
only one thing to your problem with charging, replace the new one usb cable and your problem will be solving
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know that but I was wondering if leaving it plugged in will it be bad for my battery at all
to leave it plugged in now approaching 28 hours
the charging logo on the screen appears to have approximately 75% charge so far
I want it to get to 100%
should I unplug it if its not charged in 6-8 more hours
im mainly wondering if it is even possible to fully charge to 100%
on a old ipod usb charger or not
kush king710 said:
Hi I just bought a used galaxy note 10.1
it did not come with a usb wall charger
after 7 hours of charging
a search said its my usb charger
I was wounding if it is normal for this to take over 24 hours from 0% battery on a charger like this
that only gives 0.5 A
or am I doing damage to my battery by leaving on charge for longer than 24 hours
its like a incredibly slow trickle charge
right now its almost full it claims but im not sure if it will ever be full at this rate
I thought maybe 24 hours but now its 1 hour past 24
I was trying to (calibrate the battery )
so I let it die to 0%
I turned the device on half way though charging
noticed it had an x though the batter so I freaked out and tryed plugging and unplugging it like 10 times
I was wounding how bad that might be for the memory of my battery to do something like that
because I unplugged it before it got to 100% when i was attempting to calibrate it
Im not sure how sensitive these batteries are
but your input would be much appreciated
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are not harming your device. The only negative is that it will take longer to charge. The red is normal when not using either the correct type charging block or usb cable, it is not harming your tablet.
I would just do what some of the other posters have suggested, getting a new charger made for a tablet, just because waiting that long for it to charge is not practical.
kush king710 said:
I know that but I was wondering if leaving it plugged in will it be bad for my battery at all
to leave it plugged in now approaching 28 hours
the charging logo on the screen appears to have approximately 75% charge so far
I want it to get to 100%
should I unplug it if its not charged in 6-8 more hours
im mainly wondering if it is even possible to fully charge to 100%
on a old ipod usb charger or not
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SGN 10.1 GT-N80XX series need a specifically designed charger for them.
One thing for sure, it need to provide 2.1 A, 5 V & most phone charger only supply around 0.5 - 1 A.
Most 3rd party charger also only supply around 0.5 - 1 A.
The other is the data pin(s) & it quite different with Apple's charger.
I've tried several 3rd party chargers & Apple chargers (iPod,iPhone & iPad) & most of it unable to charge my N8000.
You need to buy an original charger for your device.
Or you can try buying 3rd Party N80XX charger on eBay from a reputable seller.
That being said, you also need an original cable to be used with the original charger.
Most 3rd party cable can only supply 0.5 A & some 3rd party charger can only be used using specific 3rd party cable.
A long 3rd party cable (10 ft / 3 m) usually can only supply around 1 A.
For example :
I have a Powerbank that uses its own cable to charge at 2.1A rate, but I can't use my own original cable with it
But my original cable is fine & I uses it to charge using my original wall charger.
It takes around 4-5 hours from 4% to 100% (with WiFi ON & all sync on)
0.5 A can't charge your device while in Power ON condition.
To charge at 0.5 A rate you have to turn OFF your device & it will take a long time to get 100%
(N80XX series have a 7000mAh battery so you can calculate how long).
NOTE:
The battery with red cross icon means that the charger/cable isn't designed for N80XX (usually the data pin settings is mismatching the original design), but it will still charge your device at a very low amperage (lower than 0.5A) to prevent damage for using inappropriate charger.
rtan73 said:
You are not harming your device. The only negative is that it will take longer to charge. The red is normal when not using either the correct type charging block or usb cable, it is not harming your tablet.
I would just do what some of the other posters have suggested, getting a new charger made for a tablet, just because waiting that long for it to charge is not practical.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes I will as soon as I can
thank you
I am still a little worried that It will never make it to 100% with the only one I have available for now
does not really sound like anyone has had the patience to let it go to full with this slow trickle
Amazon has the chargers and cables.
Sent from my GT-N8013 using Tapatalk
I am a bit surprised at how long my shield tablet takes to charge, around 6-8 hours depending on how much battery is left (usually around 20% before I charge).
Is this normal? Or are my expectations a little too high in thinking it would take 2-3 hours to charge?
Many thanks for for answers!!
What charger are you using? Mine doesn't take that long and I'm using NVIIDIA's retail charger (2.1A).
I am using the wall charger that is supplied with the tablet!!
I have spoken with nvidia support about this issue, however they couldn't confirm the charge time for some reason, hence why I am asking here for peoples experience with charging times. Also I have tried googling the answer and haven't found anything!!
Slightly frustrating!!
43 views so far and no answer?
come on people, all I am asking is your charge times for your shield tablets!
pretty please with cream and a cherry on top?
I havn't any exact number for how long the charging take, but I think the charging time has increased with Lollipop. Most of the time it is fully charged over night (6-8 hours) but sometimes it has just charged a few percent.
I have seen some unfortunate charging times as well, but I haven't recorded them or taken note of exactly how long they take. I also have chargers up to 2.1A and thicker gold plated cables I've tried.
Are there any apps I can use to record battery percentage by the minute?
ACharLuk said:
What charger are you using? Mine doesn't take that long and I'm using NVIIDIA's retail charger (2.1A).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What are we talking about? Time to go to 100% battery or time to go to green led?
There is a 30-45 min time difference between 100% and green led.
When my shield reaches around 20% i'll charge it over night whilst I'm asleep, 6-7 hours later when i wake up i still see the orange led and am surprised at how slow it takes to get to 100%. This is how I noticed the slow recharge time.
Admittedly this is my first tablet, and as stated I'm just surprised and lead me to think maybe the charger that was provided is a dud and/or the tablet is a dud. And no one likes a dud!!
However I just wanted to hear other peoples experiences as maybe the charge time is this long and I've just got too high of an expectation that a device like this should have a charge time of 2-3 hours.
Many thanks for all the responses so far, most appreciated. Keep 'em coming!! :good:
If you want 2 - 3 hours of charging time starting from 15% or 20, you have to get another charger. The stock one is weak. I got a Samsung Note 3 one and after 2 hours and a half, or even less depending the percentage, it's fully charged.
CM17X said:
If you want 2 - 3 hours of charging time starting from 15% or 20, you have to get another charger. The stock one is weak. I got a Samsung Note 3 one and after 2 hours and a half, or even less depending the percentage, it's fully charged.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^^^This.
Also, I have a Quick Charge 2.0 charger that I found on Amazon that shows whether or not a device is capable of using the Quick Charge 2.0 standard. My nVidia Shield does, in fact, seem to support it, and charges pretty quickly on this charger. I can't say I've ever had the tablet get below 50% or so, but I've never seen it take more than an hour or two to get the Shield's charge indicator to go green with that charger.
jt3 said:
^^^This.
Also, I have a Quick Charge 2.0 charger that I found on Amazon that shows whether or not a device is capable of using the Quick Charge 2.0 standard. My nVidia Shield does, in fact, seem to support it, and charges pretty quickly on this charger. I can't say I've ever had the tablet get below 50% or so, but I've never seen it take more than an hour or two to get the Shield's charge indicator to go green with that charger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What's the Output of yours?
CM17X said:
What's the Output of yours?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
18W. However, in the normal 5V mode, it's only 10W, like any other 2A charger.
In QuickCharge 2.0, the device being charged decides if/when the charger uses the 5V, 9V, and/or 12V charging modes. If the device is not QC 2.0 compatible, the charger will ALWAYS charge at 5V. This particular charger indicates when the device has allowed it to shift into the 9V or 12V charging modes (but unfortunately doesn't indicate which). In either of those modes, it's 18W (which incidentally is about 4W more than the Moto "Turbo Charger").
I've seen a 30W charger on Amazon (which is the maximum, according to the standard), but it doesn't have the indicator. This is important to me, because QC 2.0 needs a full data cable to communicate with the device. Accidentally use a charge-only cable, and it will stay in 5V mode. It's nice to have that warning that you've done something wrong.
However, in this case... that indicator showed me that my Shield had a fantastic unadvertised feature (at least as far as I knew).
jt3 said:
18W. However, in the normal 5V mode, it's only 10W, like any other 2A charger.
In QuickCharge 2.0, the device being charged decides if/when the charger uses the 5V, 9V, and/or 12V charging modes. If the device is not QC 2.0 compatible, the charger will ALWAYS charge at 5V. This particular charger indicates when the device has allowed it to shift into the 9V or 12V charging modes (but unfortunately doesn't indicate which). In either of those modes, it's 18W (which incidentally is about 4W more than the Moto "Turbo Charger").
I've seen a 30W charger on Amazon (which is the maximum, according to the standard), but it doesn't have the indicator. This is important to me, because QC 2.0 needs a full data cable to communicate with the device. Accidentally use a charge-only cable, and it will stay in 5V mode. It's nice to have that warning that you've done something wrong.
However, in this case... that indicator showed me that my Shield had a fantastic unadvertised feature (at least as far as I knew).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So no more words, i'm getting that charger.
Ps: Negative charge while playing, do you face it? It happens on games like HL2 and Sky Gamblers - Storm Raiders.
kf006 said:
When my shield reaches around 20% i'll charge it over night whilst I'm asleep, 6-7 hours later when i wake up i still see the orange led and am surprised at how slow it takes to get to 100%. This is how I noticed the slow recharge time.
Admittedly this is my first tablet, and as stated I'm just surprised and lead me to think maybe the charger that was provided is a dud and/or the tablet is a dud. And no one likes a dud!!
However I just wanted to hear other peoples experiences as maybe the charge time is this long and I've just got too high of an expectation that a device like this should have a charge time of 2-3 hours.
Many thanks for all the responses so far, most appreciated. Keep 'em coming!! :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems you have a problem, mine doesn't take more than 4:30 to go from 15% to green light.
Actually, using the stock charger, it only takes mine about 3 hours to fully charge from being dead.
derekmt95 said:
Actually, using the stock charger, it only takes mine about 3 hours to fully charge from being dead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think so
Correct me if i'm wrong but the shield battery is 6900mAh.Stock charger is 2.1A... So what you are saying is impossible.
Doesn't charging a battery faster degrades it? Like, the faster you charge it the hotter it gets and the fastest it degrades overtime? And the same can be said of the opposite: the slower the better for the battery longevity?
Judge584 said:
I don't think so
Correct me if i'm wrong but the shield battery is 6900mAh.Stock charger is 2.1A... So what you are saying is impossible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're wrong, it's a 5197 mAh. Stock charger is 2.1A. Battery charge take 4 hours near to 5%, 3 hours near to 15%.
eurominican said:
Doesn't charging a battery faster degrades it? Like, the faster you charge it the hotter it gets and the fastest it degrades overtime? And the same can be said of the opposite: the slower the better for the battery longevity?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, high amperage kill your battery faster, take care about "quick recharge" charger. Try to avoid long charge too. Don't forget : 1 cycle on Lion-ion battery don't mean 1 charge = 1 cycle. 1 cycle = 0% to 100%. So you can charge 20 percents at job, 10 percents in train, 70 percents at home.
---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------
kf006 said:
I am a bit surprised at how long my shield tablet takes to charge, around 6-8 hours depending on how much battery is left (usually around 20% before I charge).
Is this normal? Or are my expectations a little too high in thinking it would take 2-3 hours to charge?
Many thanks for for answers!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See my post just up there. 6-8 hours is too long, maybe battery fail...
Thanks for all the replies guys, most appreciated!!
I have spoken to Nvidia Customer Care and I thought I would share what they advised me to try (which may or may not help others are experiencing the same issue), not sure if this will work or not, but at least it is something to try -
"We would kindly request you to follow the battery calibration producer mentioned in the steps below, observe the device performance and let us know the result.
You will have to calibrate the battery for just one time and observe the device battery backup for 2-3days to see the changes.
1: Drain your Shield tablet battery by using it normally until it turns off by itself.
2: Power-on your Shield tablet, if it wakes up and if you see some power left, follow step 1.
3: If Shield tablet is now drained to the point it can't wake up, set the device to charge for 7-8 hours.
The device should remain off when you set it for charging here.
4: Unplug the charger after 7-8hours, power on and wait for the battery charge to drop down to 90-95%.
5: Once the device battery drops down to 90-95%, plug in the charger and charge for one complete hour.
6: Unplug the charger once the device is fully charged.
7: Go to Shield settings > Shield power control > Apps> select optimize all option.
8: Go to Shield settings > Shield power control > system>
• Set the brightness to auto.
• Change the sleep option to 2 minutes of inactivity instead of default 10 minutes inactivity.
• Change the processor mode to either optimized or Battery savings.
• Check the Wifi optimization on.
Observe the device performance and report to us if you are still facing issue with the battery backup.
For better battery backup and optimization, you may also consider following steps.
1: Always use the Shield tablet charger and not the computer USB ports or any other charger as the power specifications vary from the device to device.
2: In case if the charger is missing, use the back port of the desktop computer to charge the device instead of front port.
3: Always remember to exit the application instead of tapping the home button which will continue to run the application in the background.
4: Restart your Shield tablet at least once in a week. This will refresh the device making it work faster and efficient.
5: Connect the charger only when the battery comes down to 15% and unplug the charger only when it reaches 90% or above. This will reduce the number of charge cycles which will make battery last longer.
6: Use a third party app manager like Clean Master and free the memory at-least once a day to keep the device running faster. "
Fingers crossed this helps.
Your charger is faulty I believe, same as mine which Amazon and Nvidia themselves said was faulty and I got a partial refund due to that. I would suggest you to get some other charger, that charges at like 2.1A as they charge the tablet ridicolously fast (about 2,5 hours from 20%) and I'm finally able to play games while charging too (however, then it charges at a slower rate).
I made a thread about this not so long ago:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/shi...k-charger-charges-slow-drops-battery-t2972368
Hello,
I have had this tabled for a while and it was always charging extremely slowly but I never took it out of the house so it wasn't a bid deal for me. However I have given it to my mother and she uses it in other ways. Anyways, the note 10.1 is the slowest charging device I have ever seen. It takes probably 48h-72h to charge it completely. I am using the original cable and power brick, I have tried ALL the outlets in my house, I have tried using the computer, I have tried using another cable (probably like 5 different ones) and other bricks (from iPads, my note 5, etc) and nothing is working. I have seen other posts regarding slow charging but none of them solve my problem.
Thank you
Thats is not normal .
I would factory reset and flash a stock rom .
Swap battery or take to a service centre .
aleks945 said:
It takes probably 48h-72h ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"probably"?
You can't troubleshoot perceptions and guesses. How long does it actually take--repeatably--to charge from what percentage to what percentage? (i.e. "Went to bed, battery was at 40%, charged overnight for 7 hours and battery was at 60%.")
There are apps to check charging current (Ampere being one of them).
The fastest charge you can get is with the OEM charger in an outlet, not a PC.
Understand that this is a 7,000mAh battery without any quick charging applied to it.
Additionally, if you are using the device whilst charging it, you aren't really charging it since the drain is about the same as the charge; you'll effectively neither charge nor discharge.
Finally, check for battery-draining apps; you might not have a charging problem but an app-drain problem.
Rolo42 said:
"probably"?
You can't troubleshoot perceptions and guesses. How long does it actually take--repeatably--to charge from what percentage to what percentage? (i.e. "Went to bed, battery was at 40%, charged overnight for 7 hours and battery was at 60%.")
There are apps to check charging current (Ampere being one of them).
The fastest charge you can get is with the OEM charger in an outlet, not a PC.
Understand that this is a 7,000mAh battery without any quick charging applied to it.
Additionally, if you are using the device whilst charging it, you aren't really charging it since the drain is about the same as the charge; you'll effectively neither charge nor discharge.
Finally, check for battery-draining apps; you might not have a charging problem but an app-drain problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The time varies, but it is between 2 and 3 days to charge from 0, never less.
I do use the OEM charger and cable and an outlet.
I do understand that but 2 days seems a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
I am definitely not using it while charging, because it's impossible. It just doesn't charge fast enough to be able to use it. It drains quicker than it charges.
I highly doubt that, I only have YouTube and Chrome installed on it.
Above 6 hours with stock rom and charger is abnormal .
Usual replies .
One cable
Two charger
Three battery or connections .
Four USB port
Five motherboard .
aleks945 said:
I do understand that but 2 days seems a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
I am definitely not using it while charging, because it's impossible. It just doesn't charge fast enough to be able to use it. It drains quicker than it charges.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, 2 days isn't right. It also shouldn't be discharging faster than charging, especially with the OEM charger.
I leave mine plugged into my PC (only 500mA max current) with the screen on (about medium brightness, mostly black screen, which is most power-friendly for OLED) using LectureNotes all day and it will neither charge nor discharge (technically, it's charging at the same rate it is discharging); the percentage doesn't move.
What does Ampere report?
Do you have another charger you could try? any 5V and at least 2A would work.
Also, ensure your cable isn't intermittently open (a break in the cable, temporarily disconnecting the charger).
If the cable and charger are good, then the battery would be the next likely culprit, followed by the charging circuit.
Finally, ensure heat isn't an issue (is it in a case? remove it).
Mine was messed up but I concluded it was the port and cable. I got a new cable and then replaced the charging port and viola. Charge time went from 8 hours back to the usual 3-4