Database Info

Help, can't flash 'fixed' sbf files except for one. Telstra Au MB525.

I just tried to flash the Telstra (Australia) SBF. No info comes up in file properties and it gives an instant 'failed flash' message.
I am a bit stuck- i can only flash the China Froyo and the GB Froyo, the only 'Fixed' SBF I can ever flash is the 2.2GB_NoCG_31_39.sbf -(Higgsy fix). The China rom is the first and only Froyo rom I flashed with the above fix.
1a. :I want to know why I cannot flash 'fixed SBF's' that come with JBoogie, ADXLmod, barebones etc roms.
1b :Why do I still have to use the 'Higgsy fix' 2.2GB_NoCG_31_39.sbf? It appears that I am somehow locked to it.
1c :Is it because of the Telstra rom I am on- with all rom flashing instructions, it is mentioned eg 'if you are on 2,21 or 2.34 fw etc- no reference is ever made to the 2.26 fw.
2: I want to know how flashing a rom without the corresponding SBF actually affects the operating of the rom- eg: I get random reboots, black screens, freezups=- is this likely an issue with the rom or because I cannot flash the fixed SBF.
3. Will restoring a Telstra nanodroid on top of the China Froyo SBF that I am running, then applying the fixed Telstra SBF that racca graciously provided make my Defy exactly like stock- or will there still be remnants of the China Froyo etc rattling around under the hood and potentially affecting stability and continuing to affect my ability to flash fixed SBF's as per Q 1 & 2.
4. Does anyone have a FullTelstra SBF that works unlike the one already posted on XDA.
I have tried renamimg and moving sbf to root folder as per a suggestion for 64 bit windows, though i am only on 32bit, it didn't work for me- 'start' is still greyed out in RSDLite..
I have also tried different rsdlite versions.
I welcome any other suggestions or questions.. At least I would like to know what is going on and how it affects my phone as I have spent hours and hours searching these and other forums and am none the wiser..
Cheers
Gavin

Accidental 2nd post-ignore.

what exactly are you trying to do?
i can't make much out of your long and pointless statements.
be specific about what you need, then maybe we can help.
all i can understand is that you might want the fixed sbf, so here it is.
http://mir.cr/6MJBVDCN

Thanks for that, pointless is a bit harsh though, long maybe- i was trying to give some background to prevent 'have you tried that, just do this- when it is clearly not applicable to my situation.
I will try to put it in point form.
I hope that is a bit clearer, but it is a complicated situation- there are alot of threads dancing around similar themes, but I cannot find specific answers to these questions- i can't see how I could provide less information without having 5 pages of people directing me to posts that I have already looked at but aren't applicable, so yes it is a bit long, but by doing this much misdirected effort is saved by myself and those helping.
Thanks again

Looking at my original post again, it was hard to see what I was asking, thanks racca.

I just restored the Telstra factory reset nanodroid- the start button was greyed out with the Telstra SBF , so i can't use it. Had to use the 'Higgsy fix' to get it to boot. Weird, i just don't understand it.
To be honest, with all the eventual issues with any rom i use, i would prefer to go back to stock (i will have to put up with the grey status bar, short battery life and no flash). I am tired of getting crashes at the most inopportune times.
Can't wait until the bootloader is fully cracked- I have put Gingervillain (CM7 base) on her Desire, which is much more stable than any rom when i was using it.
Update- it just won't boot now, have to reflash the China Froyo SBF, looks like I am stuck with daily @ 3x daily reboots, bluetooth that works 60% of the time, dropped calls etc....

Change SBF file name
Hey there,
I kinda have the same issues as you do, I think...
The RDS lite gave me an instant ROM-flash error when trying various SBF's. I simply renamed the file name to an SBF file name that was working, yes it got a little confusing... first I renamed the original working SBF to *.old.
Suddenly the flash process was working, I've renamed SBF-files on 4 different occasions in order to get it to work.
I'm not quite sure whether you have this issue or you have something different going on, but feel free to try it.
//Dave

Sounds like a plan, I will give it a go. Thanks.

Thanks Dave69 and Racca, i just renamed the TElstra fixed sbf to the higgsy fix; restored the stock nanodroid and flashed it and it worked. It at least gives me the confidence to flash others now, but will sit on this for a bit- don't have time for more tinkering this weekend.

Titanium wouldn't work with the Telstra rom- said it had restored apps, but wouldn't restore evn one.
Thankfully I got Barebones running, SBF and all. Looks great. Thanks guys.
I would still like to know what's going on though, I haven't tried the TElstra full SBF with the rename yet- it had a different issue than others- just failed. May try again later.

Sounds like you have the same problem as me, was on the telstra on. Not being careful enough I flashed a non downgradable 3.4.2_155-002 sbf. So now I can't downgrade back to the stock Telstra one. I have tried both nandroid backups and flashing the stock telstra sbf and neither work. so am stuck on this rom running JBoogie GingerBlur
Not compaining, for a blur rom it is quite fast, only thing is I can't downgrade back to telstra if the phone needs to be returned for anything.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.

Try following the renaming method-though i had titanium issues, it os enough to get me through a warranty claim- i did it before with the same nanodroid backup from xda. Btw, i just flashed the 3.42 out of frustration and it let me go back with the renamed fixed sbf.
I am very impressed with barebones, even the xda app is quicker...

superfastmonkey said:
Try following the renaming method-though i had titanium issues, it os enough to get me through a warranty claim- i did it before with the same nanodroid backup from xda. Btw, i just flashed the 3.42 out of frustration and it let me go back with the renamed fixed sbf.
I am very impressed with barebones, even the xda app is quicker...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok, now where do i begin. i'll just say what i can think of instead of answering every single question.
sbf's contains various code groups as you may noticed while flashing it slipts into smaller pieces.
out of those, cg31&39 are non-downgradable and the pair of them must match. all other partitions on the phone are either not flashed by the sbf (e.g. bootloader/mbmloader, pds), useless (cdrom) or downgradable (kernel, recovery, lbl, devtree).
there are no hardware incompatibilities except the chinese ones, but if you don't update cg31(cdt) to match your /system(cg39) you might have some minor issues (i singles these out because they are not downgradable, of course you'll have issues if you don't match all other things).
you might have a chance fooling tel$tra by flashing the sbf i provided (stock 2.26.0) and restore the nandroid. it should be almost identical except you'll get busted when they try to do flash their service sbf.
the bottom line is,
1. if you flashed any sbf larger than 50MB it must have cg39 in it, and you can't downgrade.
2. you must use matching kernel/devtree with the system: the chinese ones will not be compatible with any other roms, you can't mix match froyo with eclair.

Thanks racca, it makes things a bit clearer. I didn't think I had flashed the GB rom, but I must have-it was 3 or 4 mths ago- it explains why I used the Higgsy fix...i think the China one came out very shortly after..
I should probably try flashing a 2.1 rom b4 restoring the telstra nano if I want stock-( with Telstra, we will have to wait until 3 mths + after the rest of the world gets Froyo for them to fill it to the brim with bloat ware..)..
It looks like the Higgsy fix didn't work for our devices anyway-i suspect my phone believes it is a 3.42 fw now.
In any case, I am relieved to have a way to flash the fixed sbf's now.. Barebones is very impressive, no hint of an issue, but need to run it for a week to really see.
Thanks.

I have a Telstra phone too and after a week of owning it back in January, I had already installed a 2.2 De-blurred ROM. I did have radio issues at first and also remember a non-stop reboot issue. I think it was the USB debugging somehow but I could be wrong.
Now I install new ROMs with ease when the need strikes me.

Are you able to flash the fixed sbfs for roms you install?

I've just put the CM7 rom on mine, best rom I've used. Also flashed a fixed rom with it.
Next thing i tried was restoring a nandroid backup of the default telstra rom, then flashed a fixed stock telstra sbf, this worked and was able to at least make the phone look like it was stock. Whether or not that would be enough if i had to send the phone in for repairs. Can only try if it needs to go in.
CM7 is by far the fastest rom I've tried. Only used for a day so far and no problems yet. Highly recommend this one.
Cheers
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App

I flashed the fixed sbf by renaming after restoring the telstra nano and it worked, but didn't run properly, I did it a couple of months ago with just the nano after having jboogies blurless ginger and it passed for warranty. Haven't tried renaming the full telstra sbf yet. I might over the long weekend.
Sent from my MB525 using XDA Premium App

That's what I was hoping, but for now I'm staying with cm7.
Will go back to the telstra one only if it needs warranty work.
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App

samorgs said:
That's what I was hoping, but for now I'm staying with cm7.
Will go back to the telstra one only if it needs warranty work.
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You'll be fine.
On a side note, it's ridiculous that Optus have official froyo already, Telstra due in July.
Sent from my MB525 using XDA Premium App

[Flash SBF] OFFICIAL RELEASE | Android Froyo 2.2.2 [UK]

System version :
Version.34.177.3MB525.Retail.en.GB
APflex version :
GAS_EMEA_USAJRDNFRYORTGB_P019
Build number :
JOREM_U3_3.4.2_177-3
Android version
2.2.2
Full SBF :
http://www.mediafire.com/?op47dv8yo8iypj1
rachit2588 said:
ok uploading will update the links here
Here is the full official UK rom http://www.multiupload.com/GK4V4ICBIK
No problems with haptic feedback, all working fine.
Flash via rsd lite ...but before that do complete factory wipe / erase data /cache etc etc
Here is the nandroid and fixed sbf :: http://www.multiupload.com/YZTSVZ2OJ3
first restore the nandroid via Custom Recovery and flash the fixed sbf.. as usual procedures
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Yay! Thanks.

Ah, magnificent. Thanks.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

Good job, thanks so much.
I was sick I let it through my fingers when I updated!

Thank you, I have been waiting for this ;0)

the file in the archive is dated 14.04.2011... it's genuine GB SBF?
anyway, thanks!

Downloaded this file by MSU
it's genuine GB SBF

Hi,
I have run Recuva over my file system. I could not recover the sbf, but the file name, modified time and size were found.
They match perfectly the file I downloaded from mpieq.
Cheers, as far as I'm concerned that is the real thing.
Olly

Works great! Thanks very much.
Now then... who is going to produce a theme so it looks like leaked / 2.3.3 that wouldnt work with the unfortunate green camera devices?
Andy

Was on early 2.2.1 - wanted to upgrade in case of warranty issues.
Flashed with RSD Lite. New Red Motorola logo with white rings when phone starts, but had to pull battery and re-boot manually.
Phone is upgraded with all contacts, settings etc as before.
Just had to root phone with superoneclick to get Titanium back-up and SetVSL running.
30 mins start to finish. Many thanks

NickAJ said:
30 mins start to finish. Many thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're luck. After upgrade mine boot up but with all settings and apps restored, however it after rooting it wasn't stable. Got to do factory reset and... for a first time used TiBu to restore my apps - works flawlessly . The only issue was the lack of Polish Swype (got it with Eclair) but used the one from CEE ROM and it works flawlessly.

mine simply has lost his Haptic Feedback... it must be restarted to gain his capabilities restored. is losing also his WiFi (with error message in wifi and network settings) and the data connection...
any ideas? could be from the JuiceDefender wrong resources management?

I am on motorola defy with formware version 2.51.1. If I upgrade to this will I lose my root, if I lose root can this be rooted by SuperOneClick.
Does it have blur is without Blur, I ma looking for something without Blur.

With Blur or without Blur?
Sent from my Toilet using Motorola DEFY.

I am looking for without Blur.If I upgrade to this will I lose my root, if I lose root can this be rooted by SuperOneClick.

croxley said:
I am looking for without Blur.If I upgrade to this will I lose my root, if I lose root can this be rooted by SuperOneClick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This ROM is blurred. I flashed it over 2.2.1 (the UK 3.4.3-11 ROM), which I had previously successfully rooted via SOC (in fact, an older version, from months ago), but, as, at first, for strict test purposes, I decided not to wipe anything at all after flashing this ROM, the root condition (just like all my applications and settings) was kept as it was before. My Defy is in this very state ever since.
By the way, I haven't noticed differences between the two ROMs.
Just my 2 cents...
Regards,
Carlos

i have installed the full sbf
no problems with haptic feedback.
all looks fine and smooth..blur is also working nice ..even you can skip the setup.
just the 3g gets stucks up when the phone is idle..(the "H" is shown but the arrows ↑↓ are greyed out ..i have to reconfigure the apn and set it again to get it working.
Guys ne thoughts on this 3g problem..?? i have used defy baseband to switch my baseband for india.
EDIT :: solved the problems....i think this is problem free blur rom so far ...!! kudos to motorola uk..!!
note :: i didnt download from any links given here..i had some other source.

Their is some problem with the link? I have tried to download 3 times, but corrupt file...

If I wanted to go from the Korean 177 base sbf with cm7 rc1 installed to this what would be the procedure? Is it as simple as doing it through rsdlite or through the 2nd init recovery?
Thanks
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App

ifu said:
Their is some problem with the link? I have tried to download 3 times, but corrupt file...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Should i upload nandroid / full sbf for you..??

[Q] Rom Flash - Gummy or CM9

Before I started to flash a new ICS Rom (which I am quite excited about) I had a D2G on Hexen. I flashed the CM9 ROM and got bricked, so I SBF flashed back to stock and tried again. Again, a brick. I tried a third time with the same result and then decided to try Gummy instead (thinking there may be some issues with CM9 because it is in Beta). It also bricked. In the end I just flashed back to my backup that I saved from right before I began this process, but I would really like to take advantage of these new ROMs. If anyone has any advice I would be most thankful.
Some notes:
I was the the newest CWM Recovery Version
I checked all the MD5 and they all aligned perfectly
Thanks for any help I receive, if you want to know something else about my phone data during this procedure, just let me know.

so you flashed back to.33 or .608 before you flash cm9?
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using xda premium

odnanreh12 said:
Before I started to flash a new ICS Rom (which I am quite excited about) I had a D2G on Hexen. I flashed the CM9 ROM and got bricked, so I SBF flashed back to stock and tried again. Again, a brick. I tried a third time with the same result and then decided to try Gummy instead (thinking there may be some issues with CM9 because it is in Beta). It also bricked. In the end I just flashed back to my backup that I saved from right before I began this process, but I would really like to take advantage of these new ROMs. If anyone has any advice I would be most thankful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hexen was made for 2.4.x stock firmware (Android 2.2 and the corresponding Motorola kernel).
All newer ROMs (CM7, CM9, Gummy, Apex, etc.) are based on 4.5.x. Update to 4.5.608 (preferably via SBF; do NOT accept any OTA updates once you're on 4.5.608) and proceed from there.

Ah thanks so much, I forgot that Android Firmware numbers had to match up, I will try again later tonight

forgot that Android Firmware numbers had to match up,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
just fyi, not android firmware, moto's system version/firmware

Firmware must be watched
Sent from my GT-I9001 using xda premium

[Q] Cannot get from GB to ICS at all.

I keep running into problems after flashing any ICS custom ROM. (Maybe I should try going to an ICS Stock ROM first).
Most times it just loops on the loading screen.
- Phone is rooted of course.
- I usually have the Emancipation GB custom rom before flashing to this one or a Stock GB with root and red CWM.
- I follow instructions to a 'tee'
- When I do reboot, it loops at Samsung logo.
The last time I tried (Dark Knight ICS Rom), just recently, I flashed then rebooted into recovery (from advance-boot to recovery), and it didn't go to recovery mode, it just looped.
So currently I'm on Stock GB with root and red CWM.
What am I doing wrong?
What are some things I should consider?
Some of the GB custom roms are nice yes, but I rooted mainly so I could get ICS.
Thanks for any help anyone can offer/

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1610374
Wipe cache/Wipe dalvick/factory restore
You flash the rom
Then Gapps
Restart....Then it bootloops?

omansteveo said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1610374
Wipe cache/Wipe dalvick/factory restore
You flash the rom
Then Gapps
Restart....Then it bootloops?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah pretty much.
Only happens for ICS ROMs. Well the ones I've tried.
Still new at this, so I'll keep trying and that link you posted is one of my most visited links.

Skebodan said:
Yeah pretty much.
Only happens for ICS ROMs. Well the ones I've tried.
Still new at this, so I'll keep trying and that link you posted is one of my most visited links.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ive been at it for about 5 months now and have bricked my phone like 20 times ha ha...so Ill do what I can to help. I've been successful going from GB to ICS to JB and vice versa. Try this also....When you phone starts to boot loop pull the battery and boot into recovery. Then wipe everything again and reflash the rom and gapps

omansteveo said:
Ive been at it for about 5 months now and have bricked my phone like 20 times ha ha...so Ill do what I can to help. I've been successful going from GB to ICS to JB and vice versa. Try this also....When you phone starts to boot loop pull the battery and boot into recovery. Then wipe everything again and reflash the rom and gapps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol alright thanks man. I've bricked mine about twice now. Just started about a week lol.
I'll give you an update in about 2 hours. Got to get ready for work

I have gone from Emancipation to this in the past with no prob... just follow his instructions for install and you are good to go - credit and thanks to Entropy512.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1601844

Pony Express said:
I have gone from Emancipation to this in the past with no prob... just follow his instructions for install and you are good to go - credit and thanks to Entropy512.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1601844
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest I was running from using Entropy's build.
Fear of it being too technical (It's actually the first thread I saw when I was thinking of going to ICS). So I used it and my phone is up and running now on ICS.
Won't be able to play around with it as much until I get home from work but thanks for mentioning it again.
Now to go and read the thread all the way through (kidding) well see if the problems he had are still occurring.
Thanks again guys.

For me, using Entropy's build made it easy to go to any other ICS rom for the Infuse- it is great as is or as a "stepping-stone" to other ICS builds. Glad it worked for you.

Yea man it was nice. I don't even need the other custom roms, this has everything I wanted.
And since it has a theme chooser, I'm good for life on the look of it.
I might try and customize my own stuff in the future but for now, all is right with my Infuse. I was going to get the Note but I got a brand new phone right here.

[Q] How do I install the new ics mod?

Hello everyone,
I'd like to express my gratitude to the developers for their great work to keep this phone working..
I have a couple of questions and would appreciate all the help I can get to help me with the phone.
I had installed CM7 on my phone for 4 months during which it kept rebooting and giving me a lot of trouble, so I installed the russian stock sbf (since it has arabic) two days ago and it works great and fast, except for one thing: the battery drains extremely fast. Now, I consider installing the new ics recently posted here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2069578
My questions:
1- The russian stock has everything I need and is fast and stable, so I do not want to go back to CM7 which keeps rebooting and wouldn't recognize my sd at times. Is there anyway I can improve battery life on it?
2- Would you please post how I can install the new ics in that link? Please be as specific as possible..
3- How do I clean my sd card? which folders should I not tamper with? it looks messy with all the different zips and folders..
Thank you all.. Happy new year

1 download rom
2 (if you have xt720 not motoroi)
3 in open recovery(in update)flash rom,gaaps and bootfix)

Got it
It took me a while and some research to apply it.. Thanks for your reply.. I will try to post the steps I did so that people like me won't have the problems I had.. I needed to refresh my memory to remember what I did when I first rooted the phone and installed 7.2 a while ago..
BTW.. I couldn't find the keyboard.. the only/default input is the google voice typing!! isn't there an android keyboard for this mod? or do I have to install one from the market<-----------which will mean a lot of pain to sign into my google account then searching for a keyboard using voice typing
Update:
I was able to find an apk for a trial of swiftkeyboard, so I installed it and installed a keyboard from google play and everything is working fine.. I love this mod, it's fast and still no problems; except for video recording (which I don't use) and the voice search which recognizes the commands but does not do anything else..

You can usually use the same steps as other roms:
Make sure you have OpenRecovery. See the OpenRecovery thread with detailed instructions.
Download rom zip file and copy into /sdcard/OpenRecovery/updates
Turn off device
Hold power and volume up to enter recovery. (You should see a white box with an arrow coming out of it going into a phone. If you see a yellow triangle, something went wrong.)
Go to Apply Update (use the volume keys to move up/down and camera key to select)
Pick the rom (and in this case, then pick the bootfix and gapps)
Go Back to main menu
Now do three wipes: There's three wipe options (dalvik, cache, and user data). Most mod makers recommend wiping all of these, but when you wipe user data, you lose everything you stored on the phone (but not sd card). So your game highscores, sms messages (backup app), etc...
Reboot system
ray86 said:
BTW.. I couldn't find the keyboard.. the only/default input is the google voice typing!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't even have google voice when I installed (I think I forgot gapps), but this thread has stock ICS keyboards and instructions.

bugs network motoroi
im having a problem on that rom the 3g network is not working i am from phil globe network it shows no signal when i switch to 3g but when on gsm it has a signal this is not a network problem bcoz my family has 3g sgnal on the same network i tried all the baseband and it didnt work.

zhelin07 said:
im having a problem on that rom the 3g network is not working i am from phil globe network it shows no signal when i switch to 3g but when on gsm it has a signal this is not a network problem bcoz my family has 3g sgnal on the same network i tried all the baseband and it didnt work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Make a new apn flash a rom with good working 3g or stock.
Flash cm9 then add new apn.
Sent from my XT720 using xda premium

still not working
mchlbenner said:
Make a new apn flash a rom with good working 3g or stock.
Flash cm9 then add new apn.
Sent from my XT720 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
still not working i used stock rom motoroi since my phone is motoroi 39.50 froyo 2.2.1 before flashing this rom. like i did in miui but the 3g is working on that rom. should i flash a milestone stock rom.

NO!!!!
You have a motorio xt720.
When you flash cm9 you should not flash bootfix it is the milestone xt720 im just guessing you might have flash are bootfix that why you dont have 3g.
Sent from my XT720 using xda premium

no i didnt
mchlbenner said:
Make a new apn flash a rom with good working 3g or stock.
Flash cm9 then add new apn.
Sent from my XT720 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mchlbenner said:
NO!!!!
You have a motorio xt720.
When you flash cm9 you should not flash bootfix it is the milestone xt720 im just guessing you might have flash are bootfix that why you dont have 3g.
Sent from my XT720 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no i didnt since i read 1st page to last before flashing this rom.

vadims746 said:
1 download rom
2 (if you have xt720 not motoroi)
3 in open recovery(in update)flash rom,gaaps and bootfix)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, the BootFix what is it?

andrexo said:
Sorry, the BootFix what is it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The bootfix in general is a patch to be applied when a ROM was developed for one version of a model of phone, but because two phones are so similar, it can be used on other versions of the same model of phone, with a few tweaks. The bootfix performs those tweaks. If you were to have a Motoroi and you actually applied the bootfix also, I mean logically it wouldn't think it would be harmful (just redundant), but I don't know enough about how the patching process works to accurately predict that. If you did this and you were experiencing issues, back up your data and do it over, without applying the bootfix.
In specific to the XT720, there are two versions of this model: the Motoroi and the Milestone. There are ROMs that were developed for the Motoroi that actually work on the Milestone also, with a few tweaks. The bootfix patch includes those tweaks. It fixes things like rotation issues, etc. If you didn't apply the bootfix and you have a Milestone, you would absolutely run into issues. Redo it, applying the bootfix.
Scenario 1:
You want to load a ROM that was developed for Motoroi users. You have a Motoroi. You would simply install the ROM, Gapps if you wish, and do your wipes. You should be good to go.
Scenario 2:
You want to load a ROM that was developed for Motoroi users. You have a Milestone. You would intstall the ROM, Gapps if you wish, AND install the bootfix patch, then do your wipes. This would fix any incompatibility issues between Motoroi and Milestone.
All of the ROMs posted in the dev forum are very clear in instructions (and plenty of discussion afterward in replies to the thread) as to whether or not a bootfix needs to be applied. Of course, you need to determine what kind of XT720 you have, in order to make a decision as to which instructions you will follow.
That's my "non-technical" answer!