Related
I guess if M$ is being so cheeky by enforcing tight string on XDA-Developers site, then I suggest they buy it out for not less than 10M$ and invest in is so that it brings them cash in return on their investment!
This site has been a refuge for many of the pda users for not less than 5 years! It has helped many and many have even mastered the PDA tweaking and rom cooking for only and ONLY one reason (i.e. developing) the PDA technology.
If M$ has not learnt anything from this site and perhaps will never learn, then it is their own problem and they are shortsighted!!
I personally believe that XDA-Developers has helped the industry a lot and no one can deny this fact whereas others have just kept waiting and perhaps were left behind…
Com'n guys, it say "XDA-Developers" and it is only meant to develop and enhance by making our lives much easier not as M$, make it more miserable!!
few if any sane company would invest on something as free and "opensource" as this place
nobody here get paid and everybody could leave never to return
from an economic perspective it would be way risky
Rudegar said:
few if any sane company would invest on something as free and "opensource" as this place
nobody here get paid and everybody could leave never to return
from an economic perspective it would be way risky
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I tend to disagree, you would get a few people turn and leave if this place was affiliated with MS, but at the same time SOOOOOOO many people would stay and even get more active if all our efforts were recognised by them. Im in no doubt that ALOT of people from the operators and HTC are silent members (or even active members) in this forum. Opensource is not always a bad thing but its not as if we are actually changing the WM core system, we are adding to it and tweaking the hardware we have.
The actual investment in our devices is another reason, some of us have paid a HELL of alot for these devices and arent willing to sit back and wait for the next ROM to appear a year after we bought them! Im YET to see a genuine ROM update from HTC, yet over the phone the guy did tell me about Xda-devs and the recommended ROM to use!
Bizarre decision
I can only imagine they are under pressure from the device manufacturers : You;re not going to buy a new device as quickly if you can get the latest OS to run on your existing machine.
Unless they have plans to retail windows mobile operating system, in which case the roms here would impinge on those sales.
Otherwise, it makes little sense : communities help make the market for these devices and often show technology leadership : from Win95 to XP, look how many community innovations made it into the OS : media players, codecs, compression tools, IM, etc etc. None these innovations are born in Microsoft labs. They're born in the community.
More specifically though, their actions will cause all those people who are smart enough to double and triple their effort to get open source operating systems for the hardware, leaving them out of the picture all together.
Linux and the entire open source community was born, grown and raised because of actions just such as this and I said as much in my petition comments.
JJ
Allow open source or buzz off!
MS has been acting weird lately which I reckon they would go out of business if they continue though.
What they've decided to do will certainly lower their market acquisition and customer loyalty, dono man!!
I mean think for a minute, what if they MS tomorrow tills you to buy a new PC everytime there's a new OS?! Get new hardware everytime they release new platform! Would that be kind of an insane strategy?
I paid about 1K$ for my universal and feel itsn't enough, which I should get better support and even have full right to any update and upgrade too, don't you think so?
What MS wants us to do, everyone who has a PDA to replace it with a new one so that they generate more money out of us! Tough man. I know a friend who's fighting big time for Vista Enterprise version and you know what? He's getting nowhere!!
It's left up to you gentlemen...
why would ms invest when they are already reaping the benefits of the tweaks and fixes from a source that has people doing it for free.
i renember windows 3.0 it sure come along way
but think about it are we comparing pda/smartphones too much with pc's ?
how many palm and nokia owners ever get new firmware ?
why should one expect to get newer os's for a pda/smartphone at all if the one it came with dident have any bugs ?
it's a full solution we buy not hardware and then get the software we pref
like on pc's
not that i object to the oppotinity of upgrading a dusty old device with new software though
ms wont be getting anymore of my money,
You buy a pc with windows what everinstalled ,nothing but crashes and hassle
if you do get a virus or have to reset you loose word etc,and if you didnt get a reinstalled disc your screwed
as for pda's,totally unsupported they just hope by the time updates come youll buy a new device and live with teething problems
hand on heart if it wasnt for this site my exec wud be 10% of what it is now in terms of vaule to me ,useablility
IMHO the out of the box devices are total dog sht,
they dont live up to the hype ,its only thru tweaks,added software and places like this that make the devices
that being the case i wont get a windows device next time around,its either symbian or treo for me and ive already order a new computer and its a Mac
microsoft thanks for nothing.places like this site make there devices crediable and what they are,in return some openess or investment are due from microsoft
my bottom line is they bring out new op systems,but wont let us upgrade free or cheaply,but if the softwares .op sys,worked as they claim we wouldnt want to upgrade
sell me a half baked set up ,then relase somehting improved but make me pay all over again,nah for me enough is enough
micorsoft have the vast market place,but this has turned then arrogant and feel that they can do as they wish ,but to many people we have had far to much and there offerings arent worth the hassle
you can get customers but the market has grown wiser and the compation stronger,menawhile microsoft sit back and only think of money,play on nero
im off to get me a Mac
What does everyone think will happen with future revisions of Android in regards to the fork between the stock G1s with OTA updates and the hacked G1s with manual updates with the test keys?
Hopefully this doesn't turn into Sony's militant locking down of the PSP via every firmware upgrade. Even though I never owned a PSP, I thought it was absolutely insane that Sony would try so hard to keep people from using their purchased equipment in any way they wanted to.
I totally understand that Google had to release RC30 to shut down a GIGANTIC security exploit that could have (but not likely) been used compromise phones. I'm sure it's in their interest to keep a homogeneous G1 userbase but would they actively try to relock rooted phones?
I'm hoping they just leave the rooted G1s alone. Mostly because we bought the phones and they are OURS. We are obligated to stay with Tmobile until the contract is up because the price is subsidized but we are not obligated (in my opinion) to retain the software they were shipped with. Obviously if my phone has a software problem I won't be calling Tmobile. On the other hand, if there is a hardware defect I'm certainly reflashing RC30 and sending it back under warranty.
I would like to hear everyone's opinion. I think it was great that Tmobile UK was good enough to open a dialog about possibly allowing root access but I don't think they really understand what "root access" is or care as long as they sell phones under contract. I don't think Google really cares either since they have open sourced all of the OS that we are modifying which is in the spirit of Open Source Software anyway. I think as long as they get their marketshare, they will be happy.
I dont think so first off the psp hackers down load games so the dont have to pay for them they lose millions each year on the hackers...next i dont thnk that google would do this but t-moble might.But in my opinion i think they will as soon as they start hacking the pay apps. that will start later this year.
HOGWILD said:
I dont think so first off the psp hackers down load games so the dont have to pay for them they lose millions each year on the hackers
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Hogwild hit the nail right on the head. I don't think T-Mo/HTC will engage in a drawn out battle to "steal" back root simply because there is no real financial motivation to do so. I'm of the mind that it's best not to begin speculating unless one of the aforementioned company takes a step in that direction. There's no point whipping up another possible flame-war over something that might never happen.
Ya I agree they are our phones 1 thing you left out not everybody is under contract some ppl paid full price on a prepaid 90 service plan then they get their unlock code. Some people didn't qualify for the upgrade price of 179$ and some people are under contract eiither of all three it is owned by the user the day they signed or paid. Tmobile won't take back a used g1 for failure to honor the 2 year agreement they will bill the customer.
So the whole open source push... and market. There and hundreds of. Thousands of programmers who make programs for the love of advancing "things" look how popular sourceforge is. So you get people who will create a program and demand a nominal fee say 14.95 the dev only gets 70% of the price and the wireless carrier get 30% for nothing. I . Defently there being an underground "market place" that bypasses that standard one to allow people to download free apps. The most exciting thing that everyone is about the market being a paid app is stopping all the comments of the retarded people in the market place
My 2 cents
diabolical28 said:
The most exciting thing that everyone is about the market being a paid app is stopping all the comments of the retarded people in the market place
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There are a lot of idiots in the world with money to waste. Rest assured, the paid apps will have retarded comments as well.
qft
rabble:rabble
Wow I hate people that don't know what they talking bout. I wanna clear up a few thing. Being a psp dev I can tell you it wasn't bout the hacking and homebrew. the psp updates were to stop piracy. Btw most exploit on psp were by sony. If you own a psp atlease you would know a little about the scene. Secondly, the root bug is dangerous to us. Google own dev are helping us htc people are leaking tools and t-mobile always let us screw them over. So no it not gonna be no war going on it all for our safety untill the software is right. As you can see we're like test bunnys and when a bug you should be greatful that they release update. So while I love having root access it not that serious right now it just would be right to compare this to the iphone jailbreak scene. Once paid app are here I wouldn't be shock if update start coming to block test key and resigning to respect developer work. Read before posting and short answer no unless as needed
There's not going to be a homogenous Android ecosystem to begin with because each carrier will tailor it to their own needs, and possibly to each handset.
danguyf said:
There's not going to be a homogenous Android ecosystem to begin with because each carrier will tailor it to their own needs, and possibly to each handset.
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Correct. And you can bet that there will be handsets running builds of Android not maintained by Google which will not run Android Market. Whatever carrier releases it will want to funnel that 30% revenue to themselves. I'm concerned that that fracturing of the ecosystem will impede overall market acceptance. And i'm not even talking about the inevitable outcome of Android "strains" that slowly become sdk incompatible with each other.
Here's a posting I made on android-platform and Dianne Hackborn's response:
Right, I'm thinking along the device manufacturer side of things. As
an imperfect analogy, is the Android team okay with manufacturers
producing their own Android builds which may be slightly incompatible
with each other (a la Symbian's various flavors), or will all
manufacturers be encouraged/required to adhere to some technical
requirements checklists in order to brand their phone as Android-
powered? (more like say Windows Mobile).
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We won't, this is something we will be actively discouraging (or from a
positive perspective, doing whatever we can to encourage android devices
to be compatible).
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Of course with an open source project "actively discouraging" can only go so far...
jashsu said:
Whatever carrier releases it will want to funnel that 30% revenue to themselves.
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The carriers already get that 30%.
From the android dev blog
"Starting in early Q1, developers will also be able to distribute paid apps in addition to free apps. Developers will get 70% of the revenue from each purchase; the remaining amount goes to carriers and billing settlement fees—Google does not take a percentage. We believe this revenue model creates a fair and positive experience for users, developers, and carriers."
From what I've heard from Google folks, they aren't that interested in the root thing, that is more a carrier issue. However, the way people originally got root was a serious issue. Not directly because you could get root, but because it was an outright silly bug than could potentially raise havoc on your device if you happened to type the wrong thing on your keyboard.
JesusFreke said:
The carriers already get that 30%.
From the android dev blog
"Starting in early Q1, developers will also be able to distribute paid apps in addition to free apps. Developers will get 70% of the revenue from each purchase; the remaining amount goes to carriers and billing settlement fees—Google does not take a percentage. We believe this revenue model creates a fair and positive experience for users, developers, and carriers."
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I imagine the billing settlement fees could be rather sizeable. I don't run a credit card processing company, but i've seen $.20 - $.30 per transaction thrown around. That's in line with Paypal's fees.
We'll see if other manufacturer/carrier matchups continue to use Android Market. I wouldn't be surprised to see them create their own markets though, simply because if it's possible and there's the slightest financial incentive to do so, eventually someone will do it.
I was in the PSP scene for a long time, admin at one of the largest PSP sites, net admin on the largest PSP IRC server, and had several contacts within Sony's Playstation department. So I know how the scene went pretty well.
Sony did not want homebrew for multiple reasons. The obvious one is ISO playback. No matter what they did, warez was possible. Even back before we had perfected the actual emulation, we could simply patch calls to disc0:/ to ms0:/ and load the EBOOT. If we hadn't figured out how (the first one to truly do it was UMD Emulator, which would patch many of the PSP calls to make it MUCH smoother/more compatible), we could simply expand on this.
The second reason is that we were stepping on their toes, so to speak. They wanted to have many more downloadable minigames that could be booted off of the memstick, something we did years before them. I doubt they liked that we were doing what they planned, and doing it much better/faster.
Thirdly, they were responsible for all bricked devices. Although their unbricking process has always been easy, it costs them time/shipping. It's still a pain and costly for them to do it massively.
This is why they combated it on the PSP so much. On the standard Playstations, they've never had to worry about it this much. They didn't have memory cards that you could easily throw ISOs on, they didn't have any easily loaded software that would allow you to boot them, etc. You had to buy hardware devices (hdloader, the swap program (ffs can't remember the name), or modchips). Pirating the PSP was SO much easier.
Now, onto the G1... a Google employee has already (off the record, speaking for himself, not Google) that they should have just given us root access, especially if HTC was going to be so careless with their NBH images.
If every one was given root access, cracking paid applications would be much easier. Well, that is the belief. In reality, cracking them will be a sinch. With easily done byte code modification, and resigning the APK, I doubt there's an application that CAN'T be cracked. As long as you could install apps from browser/SD card, you can crack them. Even if they locked it down to market only, we could spoof DNS servers and run "unofficial" markets with cracked applications. This wouldn't require root access at all.
(excuse any typos, it's 10F outside atm and I'm trying to smoke.)
Gary13579 said:
I was in the PSP scene for a long time, admin at one of the largest PSP sites, net admin on the largest PSP IRC server, and had several contacts within Sony's Playstation department. So I know how the scene went pretty well.
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I know you, your from www.psp-hacks.com huh Dash Hacks Network is my only source lol hey didn't you recently do some homebrew app i remember seeing something bout you on qj. lol your coding for g1 now? maybe a nice irc for g1?
aron4588 said:
I know you, your from www.psp-hacks.com huh Dash Hacks Network is my only source lol hey didn't you recently do some homebrew app i remember seeing something bout you on qj. lol your coding for g1 now? maybe a nice irc for g1?
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The last time I used my PSP was a year ago, as a flash drive so I could reformat my computer. I haven't actually *used* it in years, so anything you saw on QJ wasn't about the real Gary .
But yes that's me, and I was an admin at Dash Hacks.
aron4588 said:
I know you, your from www.psp-hacks.com huh Dash Hacks Network is my only source lol hey didn't you recently do some homebrew app i remember seeing something bout you on qj. lol your coding for g1 now? maybe a nice irc for g1?
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Yes please a "full irc client would be nice." there is a "irc client" if you can call it that in the market called Firc it is a neat program then you come to figure out the dev is running the only channel it can join as ops and Perm bans any user not on a G1. Also at his discretion. Seems to much like a plug to me soon enough he will add an ADbot you watch and people with accidently click the hell out of the ad links .
diabolical28 said:
Yes please a "full irc client would be nice." there is a "irc client" if you can call it that in the market called Firc it is a neat program then you come to figure out the dev is running the only channel it can join as ops and Perm bans any user not on a G1. Also at his discretion. Seems to much like a plug to me soon enough he will add an ADbot you watch and people with accidently click the hell out of the ad links .
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Lol what? fIRC lets you connect to any server and any channel.
diabolical28 said:
Yes please a "full irc client would be nice." there is a "irc client" if you can call it that in the market called Firc it is a neat program then you come to figure out the dev is running the only channel it can join as ops and Perm bans any user not on a G1. Also at his discretion. Seems to much like a plug to me soon enough he will add an ADbot you watch and people with accidently click the hell out of the ad links .
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http://code.google.com/p/androidirc/
It makes a lot of sense. In a way, its sort of a public beta. ATT only has so many testers who can find all the various bugs, so leaking an unreleased build to the public would be the best way to find them.
I can appreciate this theory. And im digging the built in wifi tether feature. That was my number one reason for rooting.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I've wondered this about many leaks. Don't think tether will be in final, just don't see the death star being that friendly.
From a phone on an app
I'm no longer a customer of DirecTV's, but back in 2008 when I was, they were doing something that I thought was fantastic with some of their customer base on dbstalk.com. They were issuing beta releases of their STB software over their birds at particular times of the day (read midnight), allowing customers to be their testers for them. You could then log defects/issues in the appropriate threads on dbstalk, where they had eyes/ears following along to take action on those issues. The software updates were frequent and allowed the end users to not only see the latest and greatest software, but also to participate in weeding out the problems. These beta releases were accompanied with release notes, so the users knew what to look for and what to test. Participating users had to "sign" a waiver, but the software updates were usually reversible if something catastrophic happened.
It was awesome and I wish other companies could/would follow this model.
Yes, abosolutely! But I don't think the leaks originate from AT&T; I think they originate from Samsung - who knows for sure. I think there are a few folks on XDA (DG, for instance) that benefit from these leaks and the resulting donations. Samsung benefits from a huge community of users testing their crappy software...I digress.
I doubt it was intentional - by samsung corporate - big corporations don't think that way. I think DG knows someone there and got an older developer build (it is about 2 weeks old).
I don't think samsung cares that much - they have not shutdown the samfirmwares site, and there are probably some individual developers that check things out here - but I doubt some VP of development said "lets leak the firmware and see what bugs they find"
alphadog00 said:
I doubt it was intentional - by samsung corporate - big corporations don't think that way. I think DG knows someone there and got an older developer build (it is about 2 weeks old).
I don't think samsung cares that much - they have not shutdown the samfirmwares site, and there are probably some individual developers that check things out here - but I doubt some VP of development said "lets leak the firmware and see what bugs they find"
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What is the samfirmwares site now? I have been unable to find it the last couple of weeks. What's the current address?
BigEHokie said:
I'm no longer a customer of DirecTV's, but back in 2008 when I was, they were doing something that I thought was fantastic with some of their customer base on dbstalk.com. They were issuing beta releases of their STB software over their birds at particular times of the day (read midnight), allowing customers to be their testers for them. You could then log defects/issues in the appropriate threads on dbstalk, where they had eyes/ears following along to take action on those issues. The software updates were frequent and allowed the end users to not only see the latest and greatest software, but also to participate in weeding out the problems. These beta releases were accompanied with release notes, so the users knew what to look for and what to test. Participating users had to "sign" a waiver, but the software updates were usually reversible if something catastrophic happened.
It was awesome and I wish other companies could/would follow this model.
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Click to collapse
I still try to participate in the "Cutting Edge" Betas.
From a technical perspective, it would make good sense. Release it to the enthusiast community and lurk in their forums looking for feedback. Even better would be to participate in the forums and actively solicit feedback and provide support. From a legal perspective, I would guess it poses some risks. Without some sort of EULA in place, Samsung and AT&T have no way to limit their liability. Maybe your contract with AT&T covers that but I am not sure.
So, if I had to guess, there are a handful of smart devs within the Samsung who see the value in getting feedback from a larger audience but it is completely unofficial and unsanctioned by the higher-ups at both AT&T and Samsung. So, intentional, yes. Sanctioned, no.
I've looked, but i can't seem to find much on this. Does anyone know if Windows Phone 8 will be able to run on my 1st Gen Samsung Focus when it's released, or will it be too much for the older hardware to handle?
Its still too early to tell but it doesn't appear it will be updated officially
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=22592891
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
windows 7..
It is way too early to tell.
Microsoft hasn't even announce Tango yet, let alone Apollo (Windows Phone 8).
I understood what I have is that if Tango will be available for first-generation devices and Apollo will not get to see it because multicore devices will run normal and the technology advances and we will remove our devices and buy a new one, asin is the technology
I remember reading somewhere that 1st Gen won't , but 2nd gen will. can't remember the source though. If I find it, I'll post a link.
drkfngthdragnlrd said:
I remember reading somewhere that 1st Gen won't , but 2nd gen will. can't remember the source though. If I find it, I'll post a link.
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Oh sure, even low-range Tango devices, which is apparently 2nd<->3rd gen devices, will get Apollo, and mid-range 1st gen devices dont? Its been said, all current WP's WILL GET Apollo, only with a few missing features due to hardware limitations. Its like those HTC devices, 1st gens don't have extra features like STK and Camera Mode, whereas 2nd gens have these nifty features.
Let me rub my crystal ball.... No answer
To the OP, you need to wait till there is More info, When they are starting beta testing, then I am sure by then everyone on XDA will know.
I'm starting to hate these posts. Like anyone here can tell the future...
I guess it could be worse, I could have a Android phone waiting for ICS from their carrier...
According to the following article the answer is NO for all (1st/2nd gen)
Sounds like current and upcoming Windows Phone 7.x devices won't receive an upgrade to Windows Phone 8 "Apollo."
All of you guys are just making assumptions and going off of rumors that some blogger has pulled out of their ass, lol. I personally feel it will be upgradable, especially considering Microsoft's history with being able to install an OS on significantly older hardware. Yes, we might be missing features, but, hello, the same thing happened on Mango. Afaik I don't have a gyroscope, so guess what, my phone doesn't utilize it. And that's my assumption on what's going to happen with Apollo. All devices will get it, it'll just have the tango-effect in the marketplace and with features.
I am not sure how many IT techs are aware of the new MS approach, but let me tell you this, as from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Sinofsky
Sinofsky's philosophy on Windows 7 was to not make any promises about the product or even discuss anything about the product until Microsoft was sure that it felt like a quality product. This was a radical departure from Microsoft's typical way of handling in-development versions of Windows, which was to publicly share all plans and details about it early in development cycle. Sinofsky also refrained from labeling versions of Windows "major" or "minor", and to instead just call them releases.
This is what they do with all MS products right now.
EgoMaximus said:
I am not sure how many IT techs are aware of the new MS approach, but let me tell you this, as from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Sinofsky
Sinofsky's philosophy on Windows 7 was to not make any promises about the product or even discuss anything about the product until Microsoft was sure that it felt like a quality product. This was a radical departure from Microsoft's typical way of handling in-development versions of Windows, which was to publicly share all plans and details about it early in development cycle. Sinofsky also refrained from labeling versions of Windows "major" or "minor", and to instead just call them releases.
This is what they do with all MS products right now.
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From talks with a few Microsoft employees, I can tell you that are hard feelings in Redmond about Mango.
Apparently, Mango was announced way too early. As a result, competitors were able to copy features and Windows Phone Mango weren't impressive compare to the competitors.
In addition, Microsoft is furious about Pocketnow's Apollo leak. In fact, furious is an understatement.
illegaloperation said:
From talks with a few Microsoft employees, I can tell you that are hard feelings in Redmond about Mango.
Apparently, Mango was announced way too early. As a result, competitors were able to copy features and Windows Phone Mango weren't impressive compare to the competitors.
In addition, Microsoft is furious about Pocketnow's Apollo leak. In fact, furious is an understatement.
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Why was it shown to so many Nokia employees anyway? I understand if it was CEO only and few execs but now?
Are they trying to do something about it?
If not, I hope someone can release a port to single core phones
illegaloperation said:
From talks with a few Microsoft employees, I can tell you that are hard feelings in Redmond about Mango.
Apparently, Mango was announced way too early. As a result, competitors were able to copy features and Windows Phone Mango weren't impressive compare to the competitors.
In addition, Microsoft is furious about Pocketnow's Apollo leak. In fact, furious is an understatement.
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I'm not sure what their competitors apparently copied? Mango brought the wp platform to 2009 standards.
sure haven't said:
I'm not sure what their competitors apparently copied? Mango brought the wp platform to 2009 standards.
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http://www.winrumors.com/microsoft-flattered-with-apples-ios-5-windows-phone-features/
I was originally told that ALL WP devices will get at least 2 major revision updates in their life cycle. Read that carefully. 2 Major revision -- Mango is a major revision. Tango is a minor update. So I'd assume Apollo will be the next major one. So ALL phones currently in the market will get Apollo.
Which is a big issue for OEMs since OEMs would rather sell you a new phone (see Android). WP also does not need multicore devices to function well anyways... so... I think we'll see Apollo on all of our devices.
seraph1024 said:
I was originally told that ALL WP devices will get at least 2 major revision updates in their life cycle. Read that carefully. 2 Major revision -- Mango is a major revision. Tango is a minor update. So I'd assume Apollo will be the next major one. So ALL phones currently in the market will get Apollo.
Which is a big issue for OEMs since OEMs would rather sell you a new phone (see Android). WP also does not need multicore devices to function well anyways... so... I think we'll see Apollo on all of our devices.
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We were also once told that wireless carriers wouldn't be able to permanently hold back multiple updates; yet, AT&T continues to delay (or block, as they won't confirm either) 7740 and 8107 for all of their devices. I wouldn't believe anything you hear today, regardless of the source. When summer or fall comes around and Apollo is in the near future, I'd say that's when we'll begin to find out what their plans are. Though with wireless carriers taking more control of the update ecosystem (through the increasing lack of update transparency this year) I wouldn't be surprised if there is no official announcement from Microsoft at all. If Microsoft makes an Apollo build available for older generation devices I'd expect most carriers to sit on it for months, that is, if they ever release it.
Who knows, MSFT will be surprising us all in a good way. I hope they know what we talk about in forums coz they READ what we write...I bet you there's a MSFT guy here among us and reading our posts....and I'm telling that guy right now that, MSFT will be DAMNED to not upgrade 1st gen phones....NO DOUBT!!!
Kenzibit said:
Who knows, MSFT will be surprising us all in a good way. I hope they know what we talk about in forums coz they READ what we write...I bet you there's a MSFT guy here among us and reading our posts....and I'm telling that guy right now that, MSFT will be DAMNED to not upgrade 1st gen phones....NO DOUBT!!!
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LOL, people already whine about no WP8 update, yet they have no idea what it will bring to the table, all they want is a number. All I care about is bit locker encryption and quad core CPU, there is no way WP8 update will add this on my device.
- I want WP8 update
- Why?
- Cause it says 8
- I want Apple, Apple is the best
- Why?
- Cause it's Apple
Well, hopefully, MS will release a registry patch, which changes version number from 7 to 8, so everyone is happy.
Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?
Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.
They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium
If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.
thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
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If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.
It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".
You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.
Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium
Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!
How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser
MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
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The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
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Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.
thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
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The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.
MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
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Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
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I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.
It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."
thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
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What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.