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I have often wondered why more mouse driven games of the Atari ST and Amiga days have not been cloned yet.
A populous clone would be amazing, and would work so well on a touch screen device.
I know it could be emulated, but it would be pretty bad.
Someone would make a fortune if they released something like this!
anybody made a fortune on pocketpc games yet ?
dident think it was a big market which was why all the big companys were not lining up
have an amiga emulator but never bothered getting it to work
and not sure how well the mouse would be emulated
OK, well maybe not a fortune, but something like that would certainly be very popular, and could easily be licensed and ported rather than creating it again :/
I tried it once on the Sega Genesis emulator on an old iPaq, but it wasn't very good.
http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/12/02/nova-gameplay-footage/
I'm sure everyone here has seen footage of this awesome game, from the devs I'm just wondering what it would take for even a rough port to WM 6.5, including the multitouch? I've heard of iphone games being ported to other platforms without too much difficulty, and I know there's some really smart people on here, so just curious if it is in any way feasible or if it would absolutely have to come from gameloft's end. In my opinion, this is the first game truly worth the hard work it might take to port it, and I can only imagine it on that big beautiful HD2 screen.
Awesome game, hope the HD2 gets it
CrazyDreads21 said:
http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/12/02/nova-gameplay-footage/
I'm sure everyone here has seen footage of this awesome game, from the devs I'm just wondering what it would take for even a rough port to WM 6.5, including the multitouch? I've heard of iphone games being ported to other platforms without too much difficulty, and I know there's some really smart people on here, so just curious if it is in any way feasible or if it would absolutely have to come from gameloft's end. In my opinion, this is the first game truly worth the hard work it might take to port it, and I can only imagine it on that big beautiful HD2 screen.
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Click to collapse
You are right it is a good-looking game, but porting it without a gameloft consent will be illegal, and as far as i seen gameloft.s priority is the iphone and ipod touch. I really hope they will start using wm phone.s hardware to bring such games to phones like HD2. Anyway, don.t raise your hopes too high, it will not happen soon as far as i.ve seen. (just take a look at the Avatar game on iphone, the the wm version, first one is 3d and good looking i might say, the second ... well ... see for yourself )
CrazyDreads21 said:
http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/12/02/nova-gameplay-footage/
I'm sure everyone here has seen footage of this awesome game, from the devs I'm just wondering what it would take for even a rough port to WM 6.5, including the multitouch? I've heard of iphone games being ported to other platforms without too much difficulty, and I know there's some really smart people on here, so just curious if it is in any way feasible or if it would absolutely have to come from gameloft's end. In my opinion, this is the first game truly worth the hard work it might take to port it, and I can only imagine it on that big beautiful HD2 screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Welcome to forums
Wow!
I want that!!
If it´s running on an iphoney I´m sure it can be played on Leo, and also on TP2
Hope Dev´s can play with it
Wov, that game looks amaizing.. It would be wonderfull on the HD2!
WOW!!I need that!!!
I need this!!!
how we can get on HD2 ???
Volis said:
I need this!!!
how we can get on HD2 ???
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Click to collapse
I suggest we bombard gameloft with requests for a HD2 version , through their website or twitter http://twitter.com/gameloft
DMAND said:
I suggest we bombard gameloft with requests for a HD2 version , through their website or twitter http://twitter.com/gameloft
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm Okay
I would like to write them a mail, asking them to develop games for HD2, but a need an email adress to send to, anyone got it?
first of all, we need a proper 3d driver, until then, forget about any game if you want to get some decents fps.
with no dedicated 3d hardware, games like this are imposible on HD2,
first of all, we need a proper 3d driver, until then, forget about any game if you want to get some decents fps.
with no dedicated 3d hardware, games like this are imposible on HD2,
Seeing stuff like this really makes me wonder about the future of windows mobile in the consumer sector, i mean look at the games windows mobile has to offer compared to the iphone, they're pretty much all graphically terrible - some barely comparing to snes graphics let alone the ps2 standards of the iphone. Microsoft really needs to hurry up with windows mobile 7, enforce some good minimum requirements and get some good SDK's released. It's the only way we'll see any major shift in decent games to windows mobile, until then most devs will prefer to stick with the iphone or android
totally agrre with you...
yeye2 said:
first of all, we need a proper 3d driver, until then, forget about any game if you want to get some decents fps.
with no dedicated 3d hardware, games like this are imposible on HD2,
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Click to collapse
Erm sorry but the HD2 has no problem playing OpenGl 2.0 games, even 3d games like xtract work fine, theres nothing wrong with the 3d driver's just how they are used.
yeye2 said:
first of all, we need a proper 3d driver, until then, forget about any game if you want to get some decents fps.
with no dedicated 3d hardware, games like this are imposible on HD2,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, that's definitely wrong. There's nothing hardware wise limiting the HD2 from playing that game, I know that much. I have electopia and it has quite a few dynamic elements(sun beams, waves coming in, smoke on the horizon, reflections, numerous AI characters) all in gorgeous 3d and runs super smooth.
hmm
I playing all 3D games (xtrakt, experiment 14) without problem i thing those new Chips have no limitations for playing only we need more games..
hey guys. I just thought.. since we can find the thread for developers working together to port android / linux n stuff like that onto the hd2, with a bounty as well..
Why not better games for the hd2? im pretty sure the hd2 can handle games with as good graphics / gameplay as the iphone. or probably even better. but its so tough to find fun games that get u addicted.Even if u do, u probably have to pay like 10-15bucks or more for it. I honestly think that's just crazy.
I know this might be because the hd2 is one of the few WM phones that has incredible specs..the first with multi touch support as well, therefore not many developers are willing to develop games for WM, which probably only hd2 or the toshiba phone can support. I'm hoping some of the great developers on xda can help us hd2 users out!
I've got some of the better PPC games like Prince of Persia n Assassin's Creed and all.. but honestly, as much as I hate to say it, look at iphone games. Graphics are easily better. It also doesnt have to be too complicated ? short simple games just to kill time when say.. ur friend is late in meeting u or something like that would also be cool, as long as it has awesome graphics n good gameplay
I also think all hd2 users would greatly appreciate it if the games made use of multi touch. I have the Asterix n Obelix game with a virtual gamepad,which i really like. But it doesn't support multi touch n that's just kinda disappointing..
Haters can hate all they want. Sorry if i get anyone upset, im a Newbie here. It's well known that though overall the HD2 can kick iphone's ass.. in terms of gaming, we can't really put up much of a fight
You need to look a bit further mate.
For starters there is FPSECE... a full speed fully functional playstation emulator (with MultiTouch for HD2). Meaning you can play the entire library of PSOne games on your phone.
Then there is morphgear... also an emulator... capable of playing the entire library of NES,SNES, Gameboy, Gameboy Advance and GameGear titles.
I dont care what anyone says... i very much doubt that the iPhone has as many quality games as the original Playstation let alone all the other consoles on top of that.
Happy Hunting!
Also... before anyone says anything... yes the IPhone has a Playstation emulator also but:
a) you will need to jailbreak your device to use it
and
b) It is a complete joke compared to FPSECE
see comparison here:
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=13819
Audio Oblivion said:
You need to look a bit further mate.
For starters there is FPSECE... a full speed fully functional playstation emulator (with MultiTouch for HD2). Meaning you can play the entire library of PSOne games on your phone.
Then there is morphgear... also an emulator... capable of playing the entire library of NES,SNES, Gameboy, Gameboy Advance and GameGear titles.
I dont care what anyone says... i very much doubt that the iPhone has as many quality games as the original Playstation let alone all the other consoles on top of that.
Happy Hunting!
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Click to collapse
thanks a lot for your comment man. and yea i know bout FPSECE, thinking of getting the supporters version for multi touch support and all too. lol. but i dunno i kinda like simple games too, just to kill a few minutes if say.. im waitin for a friend or something like that. games like paper toss or bubble wrap are pretty fun too. and yea i know about WiToss, but even that's not as good. And just so everyone knows.. i am not an iphone fanboy in any way. lol. i love my hd2 way more than the iphone. just wished the hd2's specs were made btr use of.
Ok i get what you are saying. Here is a list of standard WinMo games i have currently installed (if you search you shall find):
Teeter
Xtrakt
Virtual Pool Mobile
Zen Table Tennis
Warcraft 2
DragonBall
Need For Speed Undercover
Electopia Demo
Arcade Park
Boom Blox
Crayon Physics
Call Of Duty Modern Warfare 2
Experiment 13
Pangya
Warfare Inc
Tiger Woods 09
Prince of Persia HD
Drum Kit Ace
Spore
Tower Defense
Doom 2 RPG
Flight Commander
Assasins Creed 2
Crazy Taxi
Monopoly Here and Now
Worms 2010
Mini Golf Wacky Worlds
Audio Oblivion said:
Ok i get what you are saying. Here is a list of standard WinMo games i have currently installed (if you search you shall find):
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot
i have most of the games on this list.. but im gonna try out those i don't already have. thanks!
Audio Oblivion said:
Ok i get what you are saying. Here is a list of standard WinMo games i have currently installed (if you search you shall find):
Teeter
Xtrakt
Virtual Pool Mobile
Zen Table Tennis
Warcraft 2
DragonBall
Need For Speed Undercover
Electopia Demo
Arcade Park
Boom Blox
Crayon Physics
Call Of Duty Modern Warfare 2
Experiment 13
Pangya
Warfare Inc
Tiger Woods 09
Prince of Persia HD
Drum Kit Ace
Spore
Tower Defense
Doom 2 RPG
Flight Commander
Assasins Creed 2
Crazy Taxi
Monopoly Here and Now
Worms 2010
Mini Golf Wacky Worlds
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hi, where can i find all those games for download? are they free? or paid? links? thanks in advance!
Call of duty MW2 graphics are a joke just like all the other games
Jammie_1989 said:
Call of duty MW2 graphics are a joke just like all the other games
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Click to collapse
yea.. the whole problem is because HD2 is one of the only few windows phones that can support better graphics, while still providing smooth gameplay..
anyway, guys check out http://wvga.pda4you.org/.
pretty good collection, updates regularly, free!
i agreeeee!!
i agree completely with what you are saying football fan! i too love my htc hd2! but it almost appears like developers are just not interested in making "clever" and "simple" yet still entertainer games for hd2. btw every time i look at the marketplace i almost laugh and how inferior it is to the app store (also not a iphone fanboy, but have to admit i am a app store fan boy for the time being!)
Is there a car driving game with g-sensor support? Asphalt 4 HD don´t work with g-sensor.
harryreid said:
i agree completely with what you are saying football fan! i too love my htc hd2! but it almost appears like developers are just not interested in making "clever" and "simple" yet still entertainer games for hd2. btw every time i look at the marketplace i almost laugh and how inferior it is to the app store (also not a iphone fanboy, but have to admit i am a app store fan boy for the time being!)
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Click to collapse
yea thats true i think im an app store fanboy too. oh well hope some kind programmers are gonna make some awesome games that can utilize the awesome specs on our hd2
Bib_x said:
Is there a car driving game with g-sensor support? Asphalt 4 HD don´t work with g-sensor.
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Click to collapse
im not too sure man.. u can check out that site i posted. shld be able to find it there.
Bib_x said:
Is there a car driving game with g-sensor support? Asphalt 4 HD don´t work with g-sensor.
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Click to collapse
Need For Speed Undercover has a g-sensor version.
Nice one mate, wkd link!
football_fan said:
yea.. the whole problem is because HD2 is one of the only few windows phones that can support better graphics, while still providing smooth gameplay..
anyway, guys check out http://wvga.pda4you.org/.
pretty good collection, updates regularly, free!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Might be a stupid question, but: Is this site legal?
regards
1IV54IV3 said:
Might be a stupid question, but: Is this site legal?
regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that site is illegal delete it!!
Hi there guys, i know its been quite awhile since anyone posted here..
I was just wondering if anyone would be interested in sharing their top few games for the hd2, on fpsece and any other games? I'm sure some of us might learn bout games that we have not heard about before
FPSECE
-Street fighter alpha 3
-monster rancher
-gran turismo 3
others
-Zuma
-super ko boxing 2
-colorstone's Tower Defence.
if you don't know FpseCE, it is an emulator of Playstation 1 on Windows mobile ..
it is actually the only PS emu that could run almost every PS1 game at full speed with an extremely high compatibility !!
click here to see a video
but now since WM is almost dead the developers are "studying" a port of FpseCE to android or WP7 and they are running a Poll in their forum to see what people think ..
please share your opinions ..
Click here
To XDA coders and developpers, see my post on the fpsece forum:
"Of course everybody wants an Android port , maybe only androidphone owners !!
But fpsece will be awesome with OpenGL ES 2.0, PSX game will looks like real WVGA game !!!
Maybe Schtruck and LDChen should ask for Android developers on XDA, cause if Schtruck want to work on a Android port
and also on the actual version for Windows Mobile it will take a long time, i think....
For the moment we can try to play with psx4droid and paid for it "
If you can help Schtruck you could ask him!!
FPSece > PSX4droid
that's the only thing i miss from WinMo
LOL
scrizz said:
FPSece > PSX4droid
that's the only thing i miss from WinMo
LOL
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Click to collapse
exactly the same thing here !!
Wow, im impressed by some of the videos on youtube. If they could make it work just as good on android that would be awesome!
FPSECE will be on android.... ??
Hello, check forum on fpsece.net... Autor is trying to port FPSECE to android, I'm really looking forward to this, PSX4DROID it's not good, fpsece is much more stable and mostly games are working here Sry for english..
Let's see:
PSXperia works substituting ZPAKs and APKs from the preloaded Crash Bandicoot ones. The resulting emulator seems to work with some games better than others. However, we're left hanging because we would need updates from Sony, which is unwilling to make them.
I've thought of something: we DO have an open source PSX emulator ported to Android. Would it be possible/desirable to somehow combine the two projects, so that we load things in the PSXPeria way and yet we get to have a more compatible emulator than what the official thing from Sony is?
I was thinking the same the other day.... you would think that the best solution would be a hybrid of the native emulator with another PSX android project.
as the native psx emulator is not open source, we have no source code to combine with another emulator
Logseman said:
Let's see:
PSXperia works substituting ZPAKs and APKs from the preloaded Crash Bandicoot ones. The resulting emulator seems to work with some games better than others. However, we're left hanging because we would need updates from Sony, which is unwilling to make them.
I've thought of something: we DO have an open source PSX emulator ported to Android. Would it be possible/desirable to somehow combine the two projects, so that we load things in the PSXPeria way and yet we get to have a more compatible emulator than what the official thing from Sony is?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When this project was first announced, the question was: Can it be a better emulator than FPSE, which is quite honestly an amazing piece of software. It plays almost every single game, and at 90%+ speed, with small issues here and there.
The hypothetical answer was yes, because crash bandicoot plays SO amazingly well (it really does, it looks sexy too), its a superior psx emulator. But, unfortunately, we have found that Sony crafted their emulator on a GAME-BY-GAME basis...and therefore the emulator is actually a piece of sh*t lol (the sound seems to be the only thing that is absolutely superior)
I say we just move on. FPSE serves the purpose of playing psx games on xperia QUITE WELL. and is CONSTANTLY IMPROVING.
Now, if n64oid could just get itself up to par...
Dyelon said:
When this project was first announced, the question was: Can it be a better emulator than FPSE, which is quite honestly an amazing piece of software. It plays almost every single game, and at 90%+ speed, with small issues here and there.
The hypothetical answer was yes, because crash bandicoot plays SO amazingly well (it really does, it looks sexy too), its a superior psx emulator. But, unfortunately, we have found that Sony crafted their emulator on a GAME-BY-GAME basis...and therefore the emulator is actually a piece of sh*t lol (the sound seems to be the only thing that is absolutely superior)
I say we just move on. FPSE serves the purpose of playing psx games on xperia QUITE WELL. and is CONSTANTLY IMPROVING.
Now, if n64oid could just get itself up to par...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I find it a stretch to call the Emulator a piece of sh*t when firstly the games it does run right it runs almost perfectly, and second it was never intended to be used as something to inject any PS iso into. I would bet money that the devs at Sony who have access to the source code probably fix the emulator for whatever game they want to run in less than a day and can have it out on the market. In fact for all we know they are readying a huge library of games for the launch of the PS Suite. And once its fixed for the game it not only runs great it looks better than ever.
I'd say the emulator is a nice little feat of programming, its not the emulators fault we are using it not as intended.
Rogue Leader said:
I find it a stretch to call the Emulator a piece of sh*t when firstly the games it does run right it runs almost perfectly, and second it was never intended to be used as something to inject any PS iso into. I would bet money that the devs at Sony who have access to the source code probably fix the emulator for whatever game they want to run in less than a day and can have it out on the market. In fact for all we know they are readying a huge library of games for the launch of the PS Suite. And once its fixed for the game it not only runs great it looks better than ever.
I'd say the emulator is a nice little feat of programming, its not the emulators fault we are using it not as intended.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what i can make out ..... each version of the emulator has it's own compatibiliy list
Dyelon said:
When this project was first announced, the question was: Can it be a better emulator than FPSE, which is quite honestly an amazing piece of software. It plays almost every single game, and at 90%+ speed, with small issues here and there.
The hypothetical answer was yes, because crash bandicoot plays SO amazingly well (it really does, it looks sexy too), its a superior psx emulator. But, unfortunately, we have found that Sony crafted their emulator on a GAME-BY-GAME basis...and therefore the emulator is actually a piece of sh*t lol (the sound seems to be the only thing that is absolutely superior)
I say we just move on. FPSE serves the purpose of playing psx games on xperia QUITE WELL. and is CONSTANTLY IMPROVING.
Now, if n64oid could just get itself up to par...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With all due respect, I don't know why you constantly put down the native emulator in various threads regarding PSXperia and hold up fpse so highly. While I admit the native emulator is not as good as we all hoped, it stills runs a good amount of games (and even more with software rendering) and doesn't cost money. Also, who gives you the right to say "let's move on". Again, no offense, but I think the person who has the most say about the project would be the developer, aka me (and I also have my doubts about the project's life but for another reason). I know you mean no harm in your words, but I take it personally that you think the project is a waste of time.
AndroHero said:
From what i can make out ..... each version of the emulator has it's own compatibiliy list
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've said that I "think" that's what it is. But now, I'm not so sure because I've been pointed out that some of the games listed does not work well. I think it's more of a index than a list of optimized games.
yifanlu said:
......... (and I also have my doubts about the project's life but for another reason). .......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why is that, do you believe Sony is going to "plug the hole" that allows this to work?
The fact that half the people who promised to pay the bounty have not walked the talk doesn't really encourage more effort. That is a factor.
Logseman said:
The fact that half the people who promised to pay the bounty have not walked the talk doesn't really encourage more effort. That is a factor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Too bad there isn't a reliable way to do an escrow account. Would require a lot of trust and oversight though.
Dyelon said:
When this project was first announced, the question was: Can it be a better emulator than FPSE, which is quite honestly an amazing piece of software. It plays almost every single game, and at 90%+ speed, with small issues here and there.
The hypothetical answer was yes, because crash bandicoot plays SO amazingly well (it really does, it looks sexy too), its a superior psx emulator. But, unfortunately, we have found that Sony crafted their emulator on a GAME-BY-GAME basis...and therefore the emulator is actually a piece of sh*t lol (the sound seems to be the only thing that is absolutely superior)
I say we just move on. FPSE serves the purpose of playing psx games on xperia QUITE WELL. and is CONSTANTLY IMPROVING.
Now, if n64oid could just get itself up to par...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are ACTUALLY the FPSE poster boy.
The native emulator is not **** and if it could be modeled to play any game it would be leaps and bounds ahead of any emulator on the market.
I don't know about you but most of my favorite games run perfectly on the emulator and what wasn't working before does now with the software rendering.
I believe this project is still live as testing goes ahead my only concern about the project dying is Sony actually blocking that version of the emulator from their phones.
subcu1ture said:
I believe this project is still live as testing goes ahead my only concern about the project dying is Sony actually blocking that version of the emulator from their phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sony are stupid tbh.
The Xperia Play obviously has the capability to run PS1 and PSP Games very well.
If they made a PS1 and PSP emulator and had around 50 ports of the best games on each system, the Xperia Play would be flying off the shelves.
But they didn't. Now the community is left to develop this most basic thing for themselves, and Sony blocks it from happening meaning phone sales aren't as high as they could be.
Gay. Gay. Gay.
This phone almost hit the mark, but i am beginning to think it will be the phone known for having the biggest potential, that it didn't quite reach.
dsswoosh said:
Sony are stupid tbh.
The Xperia Play obviously has the capability to run PS1 and PSP Games very well.
If they made a PS1 and PSP emulator and had around 50 ports of the best games on each system, the Xperia Play would be flying off the shelves.
But they didn't. Now the community is left to develop this most basic thing for themselves, and Sony blocks it from happening meaning phone sales aren't as high as they could be.
Gay. Gay. Gay.
This phone almost hit the mark, but i am beginning to think it will be the phone known for having the biggest potential, that it didn't quite reach.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You gota keep in mind, sony no longer have all the licences they had back then, nintendo took some, microsoft took the rest,
Resident evil 1 >> Licenced to Nintendo
Metal gear solid 1 >>>> Licenced to nintendo
thats just off the top of my head, i bet i could find loads more with a quick google search
Without having access to the PS Suite we have no idea what is instore for us when it comes to PS games.
I think when this does launch it will be mega.
dsswoosh said:
Sony are stupid tbh.
The Xperia Play obviously has the capability to run PS1 and PSP Games very well.
If they made a PS1 and PSP emulator and had around 50 ports of the best games on each system, the Xperia Play would be flying off the shelves.
But they didn't. Now the community is left to develop this most basic thing for themselves, and Sony blocks it from happening meaning phone sales aren't as high as they could be.
Gay. Gay. Gay.
This phone almost hit the mark, but i am beginning to think it will be the phone known for having the biggest potential, that it didn't quite reach.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What you're talking about is the PlayStation Suite which is coming. I tend to agree it was kinda stupid to release this before that was ready, but then again this phones hardware was a bit behind when it was released, if they waited till October or November when the suite is out it would be way behind.
AndroHero said:
You gota keep in mind, sony no longer have all the licences they had back then, nintendo took some, microsoft took the rest,
Resident evil 1 >> Licenced to Nintendo
Metal gear solid 1 >>>> Licenced to nintendo
thats just off the top of my head, i bet i could find loads more with a quick google search
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neither one of those games is "licensed to Nintendo". Capcom and Konami have created versions of them for Nintendo's systems, but the original releases still stand. Now Sony can't just re-publish the games on a different platform without permission, but if they wanted to they certainly can just ask (as they have done with other games). Its basically free money to those companies, I'm pretty sure they won't say no.
Rogue Leader said:
What you're talking about is the PlayStation Suite which is coming. I tend to agree it was kinda stupid to release this before that was ready, but then again this phones hardware was a bit behind when it was released, if they waited till October or November when the suite is out it would be way behind.
Neither one of those games is "licensed to Nintendo". Capcom and Konami have created versions of them for Nintendo's systems, but the original releases still stand. Now Sony can't just re-publish the games on a different platform without permission, but if they wanted to they certainly can just ask (as they have done with other games). Its basically free money to those companies, I'm pretty sure they won't say no.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
from wikipedia:
2002, a remade version of the game, known as Resident Evil in Western regions and as Biohazard in Japan, was released for the Nintendo GameCube. This was part of an exclusivity agreement between Capcom and Nintendo
AndroHero said:
from wikipedia:
2002, a remade version of the game, known as Resident Evil in Western regions and as Biohazard in Japan, was released for the Nintendo GameCube. This was part of an exclusivity agreement between Capcom and Nintendo
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Click to collapse
you forgot the end of that sentence: "that spanned three new games. "
Also from Wikipedia:
"Resident Evil: Director's Cut Dual Shock Ver. was later released for the PlayStation 3 and PlayStation Portable as a downloadable game available from the PlayStation Network."
I would say that post dates a 2002 agreement.
I hate being wrong lol
AndroHero said:
I hate being wrong lol
Click to expand...
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Its ok, we all still love you!
AndroHero said:
I hate being wrong lol
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I respect people alot more when they can admit it
/respect