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Hi,
I'm finally selling my MDA Pro (eBay item 300008341567 if anyones interested...) and looking for a replacement. To which I'd like to ask if any of you have any knowledge of these phones....
I like the idea of the TV tuner, which the G-Smart has, but can't find anywhere in the UK to get it, does anyone have any opinions on this phone, know where I can get one, or know whether there are any other phones with TV Tuner built in. Also, does this phone have GPS? Some reviews I read say yes, some no. (It's the black one I'm after, not the orange square one.)
The other phone is the Mio A701, purely as it's one of the only WM5 phones I can see that are quite fast and has built in GPS...
Does anyone know of anything else on the market now, or soon, that has a TV Tuner and/or GPS built in, that is a WM5 touch screen, pocket PC phone?
Cheers!!
Hello, i will never recomend you to buy any Gigabyte / i-teq phone before you read all my comments and also from others about this phone at pocketpcdubai.com , then you will know what kind of crap it is and what kind of support you will get, NONE.
User22 said:
Hello, i will never recomend you to buy any Gigabyte / i-teq phone before you read all my comments and also from others about this phone at pocketpcdubai.com , then you will know what kind of crap it is and what kind of support you will get, NONE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What problems did you have with the phone? Software issues, Hardware issues, or both?
User22 said:
Hello, i will never recomend you to buy any Gigabyte / i-teq phone before you read all my comments and also from others about this phone at pocketpcdubai.com , then you will know what kind of crap it is and what kind of support you will get, NONE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, I know you said comments at pocketpcdubai.com... but I can't get to that site, throws up not found errors
You might want to take a look at ETEN G500 (no tuner but pretty fast and has GPS) also the HP 6900 which has everything except a descent screen.
Any way in my opinion, most phones with GPS today are lacking in other features (usually WiFi) and it's better to get a BT GPS and a good
phone.
Also check this out:
http://www.eopstech.com/eops/pro3.html
I know having 'all in one' device is nice but you always have to settle.
hi user22
Hey i just have got one EXEC from UK
reading about you that this phones got lots of problems can you just specify where exactly is the problem
regards
Re: hi user22
spread_smiles said:
Hey i just have got one EXEC from UK
reading about you that this phones got lots of problems can you just specify where exactly is the problem
regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi,
I never really had any problems with the Universal, it's a complicated phone so will never run truely perfect. Like most things, you look for a fault, you'll find one...
The only things I could mention that were annoying, is it would sometimes take a while to ring and notify me of incoming calls, even with patches and fixes that others produced.
levenum said:
You might want to take a look at ETEN G500 (no tuner but pretty fast and has GPS) also the HP 6900 which has everything except a descent screen.
Also check this out:
http://www.eopstech.com/eops/pro3.html
I know having 'all in one' device is nice but you always have to settle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank's for your input!
I know what you mean about the "all in one" but it's just getting to a stage where my belt is starting to wear out with all the extras that I want to carry in my pockets!
I've seen that EOPS SDIO Tuner, but have only been able to find a foreign supplier for them, do you know if there's anywhere in the UK as yet? Think I'd sooner have the GPS onboard, and get a TV Tuner as an extra.
dont pay too much for a SDIO tv tuner here they already set the date to when they stop broadcasting analog tv alltogether
Hi every one.
Here you can read all my bad opinions on it:
http://pocketpcdubai.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/4741058921
Hello
Hi User22.
I was about 98% decided to go in for iteq x bond or gsmart as they hv come officially in India...but I read yr posts at pocketpcdubai and was horrified..though there are not much comments made on the handset, I thought what u hv posted shd be atleast 60% correct and hence decided to keep the Universal..But now there is a new ROM so do u hv any other opinions...?
Yes i have more opinions: Just received a new phone from i-teq, exchanged on warranty, it is working the same very bad way, including the lates rom. Also i allready tried the lates Ubiquio rom without any improvement.
I-teq still not answering any e-mails since 2 month ago to me and others users.
Go for any other company but NOT i-teq / Unitec / Gigabyte ( this one is the real maker but they also don't answer to any one that i know from differents countries).
Hy guys! long time no see ... i have a question 4 u guys ... i whant to buy a pda phone! can any of you guide me, or tell me please which pda phone is better? i like the htc tytn II, but should i wait for the Xperia X1? or could you recomend me something else? thank you
if you are rich guy then tytn is good . but if you want GPS to work on full efficency then i prefer artimes best phone i have ever used
why artimes is best for me
1.uses sirf gps best GPS quality
2.Lots of roms are there for artimes so you can keep on changing
stylus1828 said:
Hy guys! long time no see ... i have a question 4 u guys ... i whant to buy a pda phone! can any of you guide me, or tell me please which pda phone is better? i like the htc tytn II, but should i wait for the Xperia X1? or could you recomend me something else? thank you
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would recommend HTC HD
But first check here so you can make your own slection based on what you really need form a PDA:
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdachooser
Cheers,
Assuming money isnt a problem.
You need to know what you wanna do with the PDA.
1. Do you need GPS?
2. Do you play games?
3. Fast internet?
4. Do alot of typing?
5. Powerful Processor?
6. music and/or video?
7. Advance configuration like changing roms, cooking and major software tweaking?
If all the above is yes. Raphael is the overall best.
Touch HD got no D-pad so gaming is a little tedious. It also does not have a keyboard but has a superbly large screen.
Processor need not be powerful and need not type alot? got for Asus. P750 if u have the budget P320 if not.
Are you intending to learn to cook roms and develop software. Try HTC G1 android.
They're all my opinions only. As Orb3000 wrote "But first check here so you can make your own slection based on what you really need form a PDA:
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdachooser"
thank you guys! artemis is HTC p3300?? how about samsung omnia i900? is it good? i like the design and the specs ... i like the HTC HD but the price is so high ... 700 euros ... that's a lot of money that i will never spend on a PDA phone! I had the LG KS20 in may this year and i was very, very disappointed!
stylus1828 said:
.. samsung omnia i900? ..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So far there has only been one good response to your question (Serphinox). You need to identify what YOU want the phone to do and be specific. All you will get is blatent favourtism with the way your question is worded.
Blatent favourtism...... (and my honest, very experienced opinion)
I have owned serveral HTC phones and regreted each one eventually. I now have an Omnia with the HJ5 firmware (a must!) and its absolutley awesome. It kicks some serious HTC booty. I've had a Blue Angel, TyTN, TyTN 2 and currently still own a Touch Diamond (Of all my HTC phones, I've had at least 2 of each due to hardware failures/poor manufacturing). Which phone do I use everyday? The Omnia.... no contest. The Omnia does have a lower res screen than HTC devices but actually, this is well thought out. It allows for a longer battery life, its VERY fast at updating (even my TD with Swiftblade 7.5 don't stand a chance) and .... because its low res, its VERY finger friendly like the Iphone. Put simply, it works. I now have zero issues with it, something I have NEVER been able to say about ANY HTC phone i've used. It simply does its job, everytime, 100% of the time with no fuss. Note though: Because of the screen res, don't buy it if you want to play games as they are generaly written in the standard screen formats of which this is not. Btw, dont use Samsung Widgets, they are for Joe Punter, you want Samsung Today 2... its the daddy!
Oh, who else has 32gig storage in there phone? Currently I have some 2500+ songs and iGO8 with all the world maps ..... and still loads of storage free
You know, i've also owned a Tosh G900 which was FAR from "tosh" and again an excellent phone. I only wish more people realised there was more to life than HTC.
edit: Your signature disagrees with your comments
.....
edit: Your signature disagrees with your comments [/QUOTE]
edited my signature .. thank you for the great answer ! gonna get the omnia ... maybe dont know 4 sure but i believe it's a great deal. you say that the ress of the omnia screen is different from the other phones and i will not be able to play games ... now that's not GOOD
now i own a nokia e71 and i can change the ress of games and than install them into to my phone and they work ... is there a way that i could change the ress for the games that work on wm 6 devices??
stylus1828 said:
.....
.... you say that the ress of the omnia screen is different from the other phones and i will not be able to play games ... ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its not that you WONT be able to play games, its just that you need games that are coded to work with odd screen sizes - and this can be limiting. I think its fair to say that most games written now are for 480*640 (640*480) and this is not the Omnias screen size. That said, the Omnia does seem to be selling very well so I would hope more developers start creating there apps to scale mathmaticaly rather than fixed for a specific size.
Should you wish to use SPB Shell, you are also limited to the amount of custom skins available however, this will grow .... you could even create your own!
As for your games, I would think you will be ok. They should be on your PC in your activesync program. Once you create a new sync between the pc and your new device, you can then go into activesync's add programs section and select to install. Of course, if you have the individual .CAB files (which are also actually on your pc as well) then you can just drag these on to your new device and install.
edit: I cannot stress enough though, you need to update to the HJ5 rom if you buy it. Details can be found at i900.modaco.com.
I vote for the Touch Pro.
In my opinion HTC devices I own or owned (Universal, Tytn and Touch) are great devices, never had problems with them, so that makes me stick to HTC because their experience manufacturing WM powered devices, also the great support and the main reason because of this wonderfull site!!.
If you decide for the Omnia you will not have the support form this site has for HTC devices (I´m sure exist another sites for Omnia)
So once again I´ll recommend an HTC device absolutly
Just my personal opinion
Good luck on your decision!
orb3000 said:
...
If you decide for the Omnia you will not have the support form this site has for HTC devices (I´m sure exist another sites for Omnia)
....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes you do, search and see! Windows Mobile is Windows Mobile You can also get cooked roms also from various sites.
However, OP, you have not really said what your requirements are and you need to. Be specific and people can really recommend properly rather than our phones
Monty Burns said:
Yes you do, search and see! Windows Mobile is Windows Mobile You can also get cooked roms also from various sites.
However, OP, you have not really said what your requirements are and you need to. Be specific and people can really recommend properly rather than our phones
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hhmm ... this would be the important specs: big screen (minimum 2.8 inch), gps, bluetooth, wireless, 128 ram, 256 rom, 400 mhz procesor, 3.2 mp camera with autofocus, qwerty keypad !
Whats got two cylinders, does 0-60 in 3.8 seconds and holds the production record for top speed in its class?
OFFTOPIC! Monty is this your bike ???
yup. And I love it.
Monty Burns said:
yup. And I love it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nice bike hope you're not to crazy to go full speed with it anyway ... i'm gonna get the omnia i900 ... i think =))
stylus1828 said:
nice bike hope you're not to crazy to go full speed with it anyway ... i'm gonna get the omnia i900 ... i think =))
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
as long as you upgrade to latest firmware (see i900.modaco.com) you won't regret it. I would recommend though you try and see if you can get an Omnia-T. As mentioned, same phone but has DVB-T and 800*480 screen - although this will decrease battery life a little.
Anyway, enjoy!
Monty Burns said:
as long as you upgrade to latest firmware (see i900.modaco.com) you won't regret it. I would recommend though you try and see if you can get an Omnia-T. As mentioned, same phone but has DVB-T and 800*480 screen - although this will decrease battery life a little.
Anyway, enjoy!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Double resolution?????? DVB-T Support ???? BUT,
Omnia -T is for Korea??? if yes I dont know how i'm gonna get it!
Ebay is your friend (if you can stretch to a non-contract phone) or im sure it will be available in the UK/Europe soon
finally got my OMNIAAAAAA ! it's such a beautiful phone and smart 2 !
Monty Burns said:
I only wish more people realised there was more to life than HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only wish more people realised there was more to life than a HTC forum.
hello
i want to buy an samsung i8700 omnia and i got some question before buying it
as you all know you cant trust the salseman so im asking you guys
1. Is there flash support for windows phone7 ? can i watch flash videos or use the normal youtube site and does flash work everywhere?
2. is there a good marktplace? do they have all the good games and apps.
3. is the Browser good? does it lagg or smth
4. after a while with windows phone 7 do you like it or hate it
and 5. will the samsung i8700 omnia get mango? and are i8700 omnia and i8700GT the same? im pretty sure that theres only one i8700 but well i could be wrong =/ am i?
oh and thanks for the upcoming answers i love this site.
oh and sorry for my bad english i'm from germany.
Answered some questions in bluw
JUSTMAZLUM said:
hello
i want to buy an samsung i8700 omnia and i got some question before buying it
as you all know you cant trust the salseman so im asking you guys
1. Is there flash support for windows phone7 ? can i watch flash videos or use the normal youtube site and does flash work everywhere?
theres no flash player are yet, youtube videos open in an app (works fine IMHO)
2. is there a good marktplace? do they have all the good games and apps.
behind the market leaders but going fast
3. is the Browser good? does it lagg or smth
work wells
4. after a while with windows phone 7 do you like it or hate it
I like metro, handset (Omina 7) is good, my major issues are lack of flash & a offline sat nav
and 5. will the samsung i8700 omnia get mango? and are i8700 omnia and i8700GT the same? im pretty sure that theres only one i8700 but well i could be wrong =/ am i?
TBH I've no idea
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
JUSTMAZLUM said:
1. Is there flash support for windows phone7 ? can i watch flash videos or use the normal youtube site and does flash work everywhere?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows Phone doesn't support Flash. It supports H.264 like iOS (iPhone).
JUSTMAZLUM said:
2. is there a good marktplace? do they have all the good games and apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't have as many apps as the App Store, but the essentials are there.
JUSTMAZLUM said:
3. is the Browser good? does it lagg or smth
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The browser doesn't experience any lag at all. Scrolling and pinch-to-zoom is butter smooth.
JUSTMAZLUM said:
4. after a while with windows phone 7 do you like it or hate it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to say I like my Windows Phone (Focus) more than any iOS (iPhone 3GS) and Android (Atrix 4G) devices I've ever used.
JUSTMAZLUM said:
and 5. will the samsung i8700 omnia get mango? and are i8700 omnia and i8700GT the same? im pretty sure that theres only one i8700 but well i could be wrong =/ am i?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, all current Windows Phone (including Omnia 7) will get Mango. Any yes, both phones are one and the same.
Just get one already
to be honest i already bought mine yesterday and **** yeah thank you guys
JUSTMAZLUM said:
hello
i want to buy an samsung i8700 omnia and i got some question before buying it
as you all know you cant trust the salseman so im asking you guys
1. Is there flash support for windows phone7 ? can i watch flash videos or use the normal youtube site and does flash work everywhere?
2. is there a good marktplace? do they have all the good games and apps.
3. is the Browser good? does it lagg or smth
4. after a while with windows phone 7 do you like it or hate it
and 5. will the samsung i8700 omnia get mango? and are i8700 omnia and i8700GT the same? im pretty sure that theres only one i8700 but well i could be wrong =/ am i?
oh and thanks for the upcoming answers i love this site.
oh and sorry for my bad english i'm from germany.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have answers for all but I do for some.
#2 Yes, market place is preloaded. However unlocking the phone and sideloading is a nice feature to learn.
#3 Yes, explorer is fairly good. I have had some occasional lagg but on a scale of 1-10 I give a 8/10. I'm a firefox fan myself.
#4 I'm on the fence, granted I have had it only a week. I have the HTC-HD7, some things I don't like are that A. my carrier, Microsoft and HTC have worked very hard to keep me from tethering B. (and this is exclusively my fault) my phone is not 4G capable despite being "the lastest and greatest" C. WP7 is nothing like WM6.5, you can't natively browse your phone OS and system files. I don't like this because I frequently put valuable data on my previous phone (HTC Harold) for safe keeping.
Honestly? The OS is very nice, I am a windows phone fan. However because of the tethering issues I have (finally figured out how to do it just recently) I am considering invoking my buyers remorse and trading in for a HTC Sensation4G, because the phone is specifically designed for tethering. But like I said I have some specific issues and some of them are my fault for not doing my homework before buying.
i'm waiting for nokia with wp7
Hi,
I am completely frustrated from my Window 7.5 Mango.
I was using Android, having lots of apps in market/rooting etc. As compare to Android, Mango is nothing
Could anybody guide me to install Android into my Nokia Lumia 710
...no you can't...If you don't like it, sell it....
So can i install Windows 6.5 into Mango?
Thanks for ur reply,,,
I was having many apps & cracks for window 6.5. So is it possible to install Win 6.5 into my mobile -Lumia 710 ?
My main motive is to install apps/game into my mobile, but in windows market place I am not finding good apps for free (not even paid)
buddheshwar said:
Thanks for ur reply,,,
I was having many apps & cracks for window 6.5. So is it possible to install Win 6.5 into my mobile -Lumia 710 ?
My main motive is to install apps/game into my mobile, but in windows market place I am not finding good apps for free (not even paid)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You'll find much better apps for WP compared to Windows Mobile. It's sad you decided to buy a phone without doing any research whatsoever.
buddheshwar said:
Hi,
I am completely frustrated from my Window 7.5 Mango.
I was using Android, having lots of apps in market/rooting etc. As compare to Android, Mango is nothing
Could anybody guide me to install Android into my Nokia Lumia 710
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually... get in touch with the other guy who wants to put WP 7 on his Inspire 4G and switch devices.
Actually just wait a while, I think I heard some where that DFT is working on a ROM for 2nd gen devices. Then you will be fully unlocked and able to customize and even have Bluetooth file transfer and so on.
sinister1 said:
Actually just wait a while, I think I heard some where that DFT is working on a ROM for 2nd gen devices. Then you will be fully unlocked and able to customize and even have Bluetooth file transfer and so on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
kindly keep me in loop.
Thanks
that;s a dream that seems will never come true
never heard a wp device could use other system,except HD2
buddheshwar said:
Hi,
I am completely frustrated from my Window 7.5 Mango.
I was using Android, having lots of apps in market/rooting etc. As compare to Android, Mango is nothing
Could anybody guide me to install Android into my Nokia Lumia 710
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i have lots of apps and rooted my htc 7 pro. the problem is not in the OS, its up to you! and only you! if you dont like wp7 why do you buyed it?
---------- Post added at 07:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------
fengjch127 said:
that;s a dream that seems will never come true
never heard a wp device could use other system,except HD2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah and HD2 is a windows mobile device... which also can boot wp7 or android
sinister1 said:
Actually just wait a while, I think I heard some where that DFT is working on a ROM for 2nd gen devices. Then you will be fully unlocked and able to customize and even have Bluetooth file transfer and so on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
2nd gen HTC's not Nokia sadly. The only real solution is if you want a phone that has Android on it buy an Android phone. If you want a phone that has iOS on it buy an iPhone. If you want something thay you can hack the hell out of buy an HD2. Or you can be like me and do all of the above
i am also looking for similar solution...unfortunately right now there is no android solution....the most recent progress is interior unlocked the phone, similar to the rooting concept. Microsft and Nokia are extremely picky about allowing changes.
unlock link
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1599401
buddheshwar said:
Hi,
I am completely frustrated from my Window 7.5 Mango.
I was using Android, having lots of apps in market/rooting etc. As compare to Android, Mango is nothing
Could anybody guide me to install Android into my Nokia Lumia 710
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Three questions:
1. If you wanted Android, why the heck did you buy a Windows phone?
2. If you already know that people haven't yet ported Android to the Lumia 710, why did you ask? That thread talks about the progress toward doing this, and says it doesn't work yet.
3. Why are you posting a device-specific question in the general WP7 Q&A forum? I mean, you linked to the exact Q&A thread relevant to your question. You could also check the Lumia 800 (typically also includes 710 since they are almost identical internally) Development sub-forum, and read the unlock/NAND-access thread there...
GoodDayToDie said:
Three questions:
1. If you wanted Android, why the heck did you buy a Windows phone?
2. If you already know that people haven't yet ported Android to the Lumia 710, why did you ask? That thread talks about the progress toward doing this, and says it doesn't work yet.
3. Why are you posting a device-specific question in the general WP7 Q&A forum? I mean, you linked to the exact Q&A thread relevant to your question. You could also check the Lumia 800 (typically also includes 710 since they are almost identical internally) Development sub-forum, and read the unlock/NAND-access thread there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This, along with no andriod on that phone.
buddheshwar said:
Hi,
I am completely frustrated from my Window 7.5 Mango.
I was using Android, having lots of apps in market/rooting etc. As compare to Android, Mango is nothing
Could anybody guide me to install Android into my Nokia Lumia 710
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think if you tell us what exactly is frustrating we can maybe you help with that ?
v_garg said:
I think if you tell us what exactly is frustrating we can maybe you help with that ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
frustrating for him is i think the approach, he purchased a wp7 but want android on it. that's funny, you dont buy a golf cab to race against an sports car. you buy a sports car not a comparison with that car to wp7
the second thing. he want maybe to try android, because of the hacking abilities and customization and bla bla... and in the end everyone, and believe me everyone switches to the stock things that you have on your phone since the first day. that's the same with nokia and symbian, eveyone of us wanted a cool background picture, "cool" sounds, gimicks, but in the end nokia had a very good interface and backgrounds and sounds. he purchased now a nokia lumia 710 for which people sit many weeks to think of the variety of sounds and lockscreen so that it suites all of us. and after 100 background i use now the stock ones... the same is with custom accent color, i used 150 different to come to the stock ones, which suites definitely the best! thats why microsoft said 9 10 accent are enough because we get in the end wp8
buddheshwar said:
Thanks for ur reply,,,
I was having many apps & cracks for window 6.5. So is it possible to install Win 6.5 into my mobile -Lumia 710 ?
My main motive is to install apps/game into my mobile, but in windows market place I am not finding good apps for free (not even paid)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
eemmmm..if i'm not mistaken the market for winmo has already dead isn't?lumia is more better than old Pocket PC,i think there will be a lot of chance to do "something" with it,imagine man..some of old PPC device has already running android on it(especially the great HD2),so don't give up to your device
galuh said:
eemmmm..if i'm not mistaken...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
emmmmm, thanks for giving new life to stupid useless one-year-old thread about aMdroid. We just could not wait for that....
AndrewSh said:
emmmmm, thanks for giving new life to stupid useless one-year-old thread about aMdroid. We just could not wait for that....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Calm down, he was just trying to help.
For the record, WP isn't better than wm, two different devices for two different jobs, MS may have dumped one of them but I can state without doubt that WM is alive and kicking in the business world and will be for some time to come yet I bet the other thing to remember is that wm development kickstarted android, when droid took off all the devs split their focus, I wouldn't bank on their ever being a new " hd2 " ever again
Sent from my Lumia 900 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
It is possible to install custom rom
Just visit the site (windowsphonehub.in/tutorials/updating-unlocking-nokia-lumia-710-wp-7-8-jailbreak) every thing is provided there abt installation of custom rom
Hi guys and gals,
I noticed that the Nokia XL, released today in India, runs a version of Android. Do you think we could port it over to work on the Nokia 820?
Thanks,
Will
willz06jw said:
Hi guys and gals,
I noticed that the Nokia XL, released today in India, runs a version of Android. Do you think we could port it over to work on the Nokia 820?
Thanks,
Will
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No.
why
Why? Because the locked nature of the phone? Hardware differences? Time needed?
Note: please don't bite my head off in the reply.
willz06jw said:
Why? Because the locked nature of the phone? Hardware differences? Time needed?
Note: please don't bite my head off in the reply.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, mainly for these reasons there.
See http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=52719976#post52719976, this is the same answer.
dang
Well crap...How about a side loaded Android "emulator" version of Google Play store? Yeah I already know the answer to this one -- I guess I'll have to wait until I can afford a different phone to have access to a reasonable level of apps. Maybe the Balmer ghost over Microsoft will die and they will open up the platform...otherwise they are dead in the water
Will