Hello fellow Chefs..
I know all of you are probably busy, but I hope you'll read this.
For few months I have this idea, which seems I can't do myself (mostly lack of time, as well as resources and knowledge of few things).
Since first time I read about UC, I knew what I wanted to do: a basic, simple ROM version, without *anything* added. Just plain OS, nothing else.
Basically it can be described in one sentence:
Less cooked-in, More by User.
Less is More.
The idea was the same as behind UC - let the USER customize it the way he wants during flashing or after every hard reset.
Call it "cooking without cooking"
I did it, but the time took me to finish it made it old and obsolete build.
I was going to do new one when I received 20748 from Akadonny, based on the same principle, but I realized it'll take me too much time again.
So here is passing the idea to you:
If you have some new good base, beside cooking your usual ROMs, perhaps consider making one small extra "basic" ROM?
You may ask why.
Well, you can see the answer in post of each and every ROM thread. Johnny wants NETCF3.5 cooked-in while 888 dont want it Johnny2 ask for game, Johnny3 asks to remove this, another wants that to be added and so on and on. You get the idea, I think
No one needs exactly the same features as another person.
Sure, continue making your own "custom-featured" ROMs with your selection of custom cooked-in add-ons (ie latest Garmin's ROMs with his own cool icons, or sakajati's cool looking ROM with cooked-in Manilla 2D). Many people have no slightest idea how to even change their wallpaper, so obviously all they want is "ready to go", fully pre-loaded and fully pre-configured ROM.
But also there are people who know how to use UC to its full extent, including loading their own settings XMLs and their own selection of software.
They don't need all those extra nifty perks you guys cook-in in every ROM.
And very often the settings you guys have cooked-in make problems for them. Don't misunderstand me here: it is great for most average people when you cook-in features they can't or don't know how to add. But not everyone needs it. Hence the idea - make an extra version of ROM, *without* all your usual extras, perks, and whistles, don't cook-in anything there, and let the user choose what to add with UC. Yes, I noticed that for some Chefs the art of cooking is some sort of competition - "I add this first, I do that better," and so on... well, making a "basic" ROM can be and is competitive as well! If you need "competing adrenaline" think of it that way: can you "shave" the base as much as other Chef and still have it fully working? Or maybe you can make it even smaller without sacrificing any functionality? (thats just example)
Anyways, I know it is doable.
And I know many people would thank you that
Whats more, cooking just a 'basic' ROM (without anything that can be installed later during UC) and relying on UC afterwards, makes it much better than spending time on setting up everything you would have cooked-in.
Why to do it?
Because once user have all his usual programs "moved" from having them cooked-in onto the Storage Card (and installed from there with UC), as well as all his settings etc in the XMLs on Storage Card, it is oh-so-damn-easy for every one to update their phone to the latest build version without loosing any of their programs, features or settings!
Lets say (this is just for example) that I have sakajati's latest 20749.1.4.0 build on my phone, but Garmin posted today newer 28000.1.5.0 build, so by flashing newest Garmin's ROM no one would loose any of their programs or settings they had on sakajati's ROM because they all would be installed again to Garmin's ROM with UC.
It would also eliminate dilemma users often have, like (again - its just example) "I like icons on Garmin's ROM, stability of sakajati's ROM and the way my GPS works so fast on XyZ's ROM, too bad I can't have all of them in one". Well, it is possible actually, but it takes Chef's to swallow a bit of our pride
Wouldn't it be great?
All it takes is Chefs making "on the side" extra lean/small/basic/whaetever-you-call-it version of their ROM, and accompany them with extended cabs packages rather than cooking it all in (where possible, of course), and the users themselves keeping all their extras (software, settings etc) on their Storage Card ready to be installed again and again every time they flash their phone with new ROM or if they just hard reset it....
I know I would like that, and I'm sure there are more people
Any takers to this idea?
Thank you for reading such long post
BTW
I started to play with something like that based on 3.29 from Akadonny.
If you want to see what I mean, it is in my shared files (\Private folder, "eLMO_3_29_..." ROM)
(NOTE: it is not finished, its work in progress, so it works partially, but I have no time to work on it now so most likely I'll never finish it - because probably again by the time I'll have it ready there will be 100 newer builds 'on the market' and it will be obsolete by then ).
A good idea would be
Edit: PPCKITCHEN NOW HAS KAISER SUPPORT...WOOT!
Old:
I seriously love the PPCKitchen cooking utility...So, if I knew how to sign and stuff, I could code it...so if anyone wants to get in contact with me.
-888- said:
Hello fellow Chefs..
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natalic said:
Edit: PPCKITCHEN NOW HAS KAISER SUPPORT...WOOT!
Originally Posted by -888-
Hello fellow Chefs..
Click to expand...
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Old:
I seriously love the PPCKitchen cooking utility...So, if I knew how to sign and stuff, I could code it...so if anyone wants to get in contact with me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems like what you quoted is all what you read from my post
I just completed cooking what is essentially the 2nd version of my very first ROM. It all started out of a perceived demand for AT&T's Official 6.1 ROM, but without the ton of crap they put in it.
After I released V1 of my ROM, people seemed to be quite impressed with it, and quite frankly I was shocked, since it was my first attempt. Non-AT&T users then started asking about a version of the ROM without AT&T settings, so for V2 I released an HTC build based on their Official WWE ROM.
Both the AT&T and HTC ROMs are considered out of date by current build numbers, but since they are true Kaiser ROMs, I was able to avoid a lot of the minor issues that tend to show up in ROMs using bases ported from other devices.
In an attempt to appeal to as many people as possible, I produced 6 different versions (3 from AT&T and 3 from HTC) of V2.
The "Base" ROM included the bare-minimum. The only changes made were updating the camera and album, and adding a 10-button Comm Manager.
The "Base+HTC Home" is exactly as above, but with HTC Home added.
The "Loaded" ROM is a build very similar to what I use on my Tilt.
All of the ROMs were also made to be UC-compatible, so that anyone who flashed them could easily install all their apps not included in one of the various builds.
Once V2 goes final, I'm going to figure out the whole "upgrading base versions" thing, and start to experiment with newer builds.
NotATreoFan said:
The "Base" ROM included the bare-minimum. The only changes made were updating the camera and album, and adding a 10-button Comm Manager.
The "Base+HTC Home" is exactly as above, but with HTC Home added.
The "Loaded" ROM is a build very similar to what I use on my Tilt.
All of the ROMs were also made to be UC-compatible, so that anyone who flashed them could easily install all their apps not included in one of the various builds.
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Congratulations on your new ROMs!
I'm sure I will try them when I have some more time, perhaps this weekend.
I remember your previous ROM v1 was very nice (yeah Im a ROM-junkie haha).
but regarding the subject.
I think you misunderstand me.
If I may take the example of your "Base ROM" because that's exactly what I'm talking about (same goes for example to Garmin's "naked" ROM; Garmin if you read it here is my explanation to what we were discussing when I had to leave earlier):
Camera - there are versions 4 & 5 available, and it perfectly works when installed separately, so it doesn't have to be cooked-in in a "base" ROM. Having "your" version already cooked-in actually prevents anyone using this ROM from installing any other Camera version...
Album - same as above. There are few different version of v.1 & v.2, each one of them has different size and slightly different option. Why it has to be cooked-in if it perfectly works when installed with UC?
Comm Manager - again, same as above. Especially this one, where there are more versions of this app than anything else, 3-button, 4-button, 6-button, 8-button, 9-button and 10-button versions available, and some with different "subversions" as well (different look/skins).
Give users of your "base" ROM freedom of choice and let them choose which version they want, DON'T cook those in!
Yes, you should include them in a "regular" more-less featured ROM, by all means they should be there, but IMHO for a "base" or "basic" ROM there should be only a minimum or basics, or the stuff that have to be cooked-in to work.
I started this thread not only because I was going to make it myself, but also because I noticed that so many ROMs I have tried in past few months are almost as bloated as official HTC ROMs, and almost all light/slim/small/naked/base ROMs that I've seen, with very few exceptions, are far from being really lite or small.
No.
-888- said:
Seems like what you quoted is all what you read from my post
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No. When I quoted the whole text I got issues...Sorry if I missunderstood by the way.
natalic said:
No. When I quoted the whole text I got issues...Sorry if I missunderstood by the way.
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I've check this PPC Kitchen you wrote about (IMHO its a complete OT here). I dont know how it works and is it any good, but seems like it may be handy for less-knowledgeable people who want to avoid any command-line work but still would like to play own Chef's game Perhaps you should start new thread about it.
Nice idea but...
The reality is that chefs are cooking their roms to some extent for their own preferences, and then to a large extent to what most people want. I find it unlikely that there are many users like you who would prefer to have virtually everything stripped out of a rom. I agree it is nice to have a light rom w/o many programs, but in my experience most of the lite roms, or super lite roms have only some bare minimum program. (dialer, sql, netcf sometimes, office on occasion)
I truly think that users such as yourself need to get into the kitchen as you will never truly satisfied with someone else's work. This is not meant as a dig, but rather that you love to have your rom tweaked out just the way you want it. There will always be a few chefs who release the kinds of stripped down roms you're looking for, but i really doubt you will ever see most chefs releasing that kind of rom simply because it really isn't want most people want. I personally think a better solution is if more of the programs included were uninstallable. That way a user like yourself could remove those programs you do no want, then run your UC and have all your settings and programs just the way you wanted them, but also appeal to those users who want the rom to have at least a few of what they might consider the essentials.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
scotchua said:
The reality is that chefs are cooking their roms to some extent for their own preferences, and then to a large extent to what most people want. I find it unlikely that there are many users like you who would prefer to have virtually everything stripped out of a rom. I agree it is nice to have a light rom w/o many programs, but in my experience most of the lite roms, or super lite roms have only some bare minimum program. (dialer, sql, netcf sometimes, office on occasion)
I truly think that users such as yourself need to get into the kitchen as you will never truly satisfied with someone else's work. This is not meant as a dig, but rather that you love to have your rom tweaked out just the way you want it. There will always be a few chefs who release the kinds of stripped down roms you're looking for, but i really doubt you will ever see most chefs releasing that kind of rom simply because it really isn't want most people want. I personally think a better solution is if more of the programs included were uninstallable. That way a user like yourself could remove those programs you do no want, then run your UC and have all your settings and programs just the way you wanted them, but also appeal to those users who want the rom to have at least a few of what they might consider the essentials.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Ah no scotchua, I *don't* use completely stripped-down ROMs at all, ever
I doubt anyone does.
I load plenty of apps, probably more than most of the average people - I always have almost 500MB of programs on my SD (and none of those are any games!) and even though I install everything as much as I can to SD, I still get 50-70MB of stuff into Main Storage as well.
But all of them are *my* choices, almost all of them I have installed with UC.
Thats the beauty of UC which many Chefs seem to underappreciate.
I'm not against having any additional software, Im just saying that if Chefs would utilize UC more instead of cooking-in the apps that can be perfectly installed with UC, it would give more power to everyone - and make the ROMs more customizable than they are now.
As in the NATF's previous post example, he already denied users of his "Base" ROM their choice of Camera, Comm Manager and Album apps.
Would his "base" ROM be anything worse if those 3 apps wouldn't have been cooked-in but given to users as an option in extended cabs package? It wouldn't, and actually his ROM would have been even more versatile and customizable, because the same apps could be installed with UC by those who don't want anything else, while other versions of those could be installed by those who wanted something else.
I understand what youre saying - I agree it is "Chef's choice what ingredients they put in". But I'm not talking about show-off ROMs like ie sakajati's first kaiser ROM with Manilla2D, I'm talking about *base/small/lite* ROMs.
IMHo its some kind of misconception of what lite ROM is if anyone calls ROM "lite" yet half of *major* programs are already cooked-in.
I personally think a better solution is if more of the programs included were uninstallable. That way a user like yourself could remove those programs you do no want, then run your UC...
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I see here you partially see what Im talking about.
Unfortunately it doesnt work this way.
First, for any program to be uninstallable, it has to be installed from a cab. Therefore the cab have to be cooked-in. That takes space and would make any ROM more bloated than official ROM. take for example just few major apps like NETCF, WMLive, Office - just their cabs would still chomp out some 12-15MB of ROM, even if you would uninstall them, because you can't "uninstall" the cab itself, it will always be there in the ROM taking space. Thats worse than having them cooked-in.
But please follow me one step further.
Since you agree that it is better solution to have such uninstallable, the solution is exactly what Im talking about: anything that don't need to be cooked-in (in order to work properly) should go as a cab to storage card (instead of ROM as you suggested) and be installable/uninstallable from there.
Thats all it takes.
Less cooked-in = More.
With ie Camera app cooked-in you can't install any newer version on top of it.
With Album cooked-in you can't install newer version over it.
With Comm Manager cooked-in you can't install different version over it.
Almost every major program, when cooked-in, cannot be upgraded with newer version (or older if someone prefers it).
D3D drivers are almost released daily. What is the point to cook them in if by the end of the week there probably will be newer version? (and we all know that out of anything else we do want latest drivers always)
Those are just few examples.
Why should we force users to flash entire new ROM if all he wants is different Camera apps (for example)?
Solutions is moving all those programs to xtended cabs on SD and having them installed with UC , which would make them all not only perfectly uninstallable, without taking any space in the ROM when not installed or uninstalled, but they will be also easily upgradeable.
For half a year or more we have this perfect solution to all of it: UC
and almost nobody takes advantage of its great possibilities
-888- said:
I see here you partially see what Im talking about.
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I chopped the other to save space. It's not that i don't understand what you're talking about, and i do conceed i forgot that those cabs have to be stored separately on the rom, and it would be very bloated in that case.
The reality is that the type of rom you are wanting is really not desired by the majority of users here. I think that most chef's just aren't going to want to put out 3 versions of every rom they do. Hopefully one will take your words to heart though, as that would allow you the type of roms you are looking for. I just really don't believe that there are enough users who want those last few items stripped from the rom. i have been using UC since it was first released, and i think it's a wonderful tool. I love lite roms as well, for the reasons you stated. I do; however, realize that i'm more the exception rather than the rule. The majority of users can't even be bothered to look for a program, or figure out where to go to uncheck they proxy lol. I actually prefer to have a few things cooked in, for example sql and netcf. Not because i can't install them myself, but rather because if i don't install them first and separately then i seems to have issues with some of my programs.
I agree that installing programs to the SD card is the way to go. It allows you to never have to enter your settings again for so many programs. Recently it seems that I have been having a lot of issues with the files being corrupted however, which has actually been a source of frustration to me.
Anyway, I guess my point is that I understand what you're getting at, and i can see why it's appealing to you. I just don't think there's enough users who feel that same way to warrent the extra work required for the chefs. It is an interesting idea an maybe some others will come in here and prove that i am wrong for thinking so. This is an excellent discussion point, and your ideas are well thought out articulated. IT should be a useful discussion.
scotchua said:
I chopped the other to save space. It's not that i don't understand what you're talking about, and i do conceed i forgot that those cabs have to be stored separately on the rom, and it would be very bloated in that case.
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I chopped it as well, youre right -no need to repeat it all everytime we reply
Thank you. Im glad we're on the same page
I do understand that such "real lite" ROMs would be for just a fraction of people.
But I think it would change if this idea would spread.
because lets face it - for Chefs there will be absolutely no difference if the same programs that they cook-in would be attached as some extended cabs package to their ROM. Actually it makes cooking the ROM even easier
Its the same programs and features, but instead of having them cooked-in they can come as cabs to be installed with UC.
If Chefs would do this, at first probably there would be many people not understanding it and asking "what the hell is this UC and why do I have to extract second rar to my storage card" and so on. But once they would try it I'm sure even an average non-tekkie user would see the advantages: new Camera app has been ported from some OMNIA II ? No problem - uninstall the one you have and install new one. Don't like it? Uninstall new one and install old one back. Very much like on your standard computer. Thats the main advantage I see in "UC-ing everything".
Because I don't know about everyone else, but I sure have been always pisssed that if I want to change any of the major apps I have to reflash entire ROM!
Hopefully one will take your words to heart though, as that would allow you the type of roms you are looking for.
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Its not for *me*! I use my own ROM since I learned on Alex's kitchen... but yes, I would love to see such lite ROMs from other Chefs since we have some great talents here.
And please remember Im not saying that all ROMs should be made to have everything from UC, but the "lite" ROMs certainly should. No n00bs go for "lite" ROMs, thus it is safe to assume that all the "lite" afficionados here are at least accustomed with UC
Welp, the best solution is to create a base rom as clean as possible, then you pack all the cabs into exe installer file that runs on PC using any pocket pc installer creator. Set options to this installer so user can pick which cabs they want to install.
I might implement this on my future rom release (HyperDragon IV)
Nice idea -888-
for me, Creating ROM, means creating a choice for user,.
But some of the user, would like to use just what was included in the ROM itself,.
so for me, the best solution was making sveral variants,.
-888-,
I do like lite roms the best. Kyphur got me started in my quest to build the lightest, but fully functional rom. But even then there are some that prefer something not so lite. No matter what you do you will never satisfy everyone.
CRCinAU has a ROM for the Hermes which he calls 'Naked', which starts off with a base ROM. But he includes a utility that allows the user to pick which apps/utilities to add to the ROM after the user has the ROM up and running. Maybe that may be a concept to transfer to the Kaiser ROMs. Additionally, any apps/utilities that wouldn't be on this 'list' can still be installed by the user the old fashioned way.
Sorry, just thought I'd bring this up. I'm not a chef, although someday I'd like to learn how to cook up my own!
biscuits1978 said:
CRCinAU has a ROM for the Hermes which he calls 'Naked', which starts off with a base ROM. But he includes a utility that allows the user to pick which apps/utilities to add to the ROM after the user has the ROM up and running. Maybe that may be a concept to transfer to the Kaiser ROMs. Additionally, any apps/utilities that wouldn't be on this 'list' can still be installed by the user the old fashioned way.
Sorry, just thought I'd bring this up. I'm not a chef, although someday I'd like to learn how to cook up my own!
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Hermes have extended ROM, and it will be very easy to popping up the choice for user to install, with mortscript,.
but not kaiser, kaiser dont have that, so the only way of UC, was putting .cab inside storage card
Garmin said:
Hermes have extended ROM, and it will be very easy to popping up the choice for user to install, with mortscript,.
but not kaiser, kaiser dont have that, so the only way of UC, was putting .cab inside storage card
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what do you mean the kaiser doesnt have mortscript?
also, i think that tier autoinstall fits this category perfectly
I'm just layman user like most users here,and I think i very much agree with Scot. You see,if user like us were left to our own choice of how to install and make certain must-have apps (for us), like office mobile, windows live, etc, it will give the chef lots of headaches in replying "i try to install it but it wont work, you must help me... bla... bla... bla",since we don't even care that we have to install netcf first. Not to mention that installation of netcf itself is not as problem-free as most layman will think.
So most of the times i saw our chefs have to cooked some apps in to ensure it works so he will only be bothered by questions about more unspecific apps like beejive,arabizer,tomtom,igo,etc. It'd save him from standard apps question.
Although i must admit that your idea is very great,and very appealing to most advanced users. But maybe if chef should release this kind of ROM,it must be in separated dedicated thread with big bold warning letters:
"Please DO NOT TRY to flash this version of ROM if you don't even know how to customize things on your own. Any questions arised from ignorance will not ever be replied!!".
But from my observation here,even when warned harshly, there will always be ignorant people to give you nightmares, LOL =D
mbarvian said:
what do you mean the kaiser doesnt have mortscript?
also, i think that tier autoinstall fits this category perfectly
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No sir, i mean kaiser dont have extended ROM,.
Base/Clean ROM would be great
I've been here 'lurking' for a while and have been trying to find time to start cooking ROMs , but I must agree w/ 888 that sharing clean/base ROMs would be a great idea.
Personally I've moved from UC to Sashimi to configure my builds post flash as I find its much more robust than UC. The only potential downside to Sashimi vs UC is you have to invoke it post refresh whereas UC is loaded automatically for the ROMs where it is enabled.
However I rather enjoy the flexibility to see what the 'naked' rom can do before I add my apps and configs to it.
The chefs here are WAY beyond helpful, but I think it would be a great thing to have the bare bones type of rom that those w/o time to be chefs can still uninstall/install their favorite and or latest/greatest versions of the updated apps that seem to come out frequently.
Also by not cooking things in they can be upgraded when a potential improved version is available.
I'm still searching for the ultimate ROM, but that may be a long search. Each ROM I've seen and or installed has had its benefits and 'challenges'.
Just my twenty or so cents.
I have been playing around loading a few different ROM's on my Fuze. RUn into a few problems so dump to a new one and so forth. I really want to settle on one so I have been looking thru the forums and noticed a few new builds out like 28008 and so forth. But I saw a post
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=580429
that says they have build 28008 with Kitchen for Fuze or just the ROM 28008. What is the differance in getting a kitchen or just the ROM?
sherpa1d said:
I have been playing around loading a few different ROM's on my Fuze. RUn into a few problems so dump to a new one and so forth. I really want to settle on one so I have been looking thru the forums and noticed a few new builds out like 28008 and so forth. But I saw a post
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=580429
that says they have build 28008 with Kitchen for Fuze or just the ROM 28008. What is the differance in getting a kitchen or just the ROM?
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"Rom" Stands for read only memory, in this contex basically it just means its the os and any packaged software this is stored on the devices Rom, hence its name a kitchen is a piece of software that you run on your pc, it basically lets you design your own rom, picking from diffrent builds and sys's and also choosing what default programs are included, it is easy to cook your own rom in a kitchen but very hard to make a good one unless you know wot your doing
So by him saying they have the bear 28008 ROM, that means I could install it and that would have the phone OS only with no other extras included. So in theory I could load that ROM on my phone then install the few programs I've collected and it will be just like I want?
People who cook roms are called chefs, good chefs release there roms in the rom developent section, these are mostly of high quality often including things that you cannot get in the stock roms, there are diffrent kinds of roms you should read the descriptions of each one, some of them are called lite or vanilla roms these wont include much but the os, leaving you lots of scope to customise the rom the way you want, others like the energyrom series include lots and lots of extras and a highly customised UI meaning little work is needed to get everything up and running, its just personal opinion what you like
Cool, Thanks a bunch!
Yes just like that, just want to share some definition types of ROM, theres stock, it was an official ROM released by microsoft or correlated vendor, second one was cooked ROM, it was unofficial made ROM, created with kitchen as my pal said above. Cooked ROM tend to be faster, since some uneeded application or package were deleted and to increase performance there are several patching/hack.
Next, some cookers define lite ROM, it was cooked ROM created with almost no 3rd party application installed unless the cookers wants to put a little. Otherwise there's standard ROM one, cookers puts complete applications as he/she likes.