Related
I'm really frustrated with this forum. I was about to become a lurker again and stop contributing, but I realized that this is not the solution.
Since the Kaiser forums are the most active forums on the entire site, we need some changes to make it better for all.
What I'd like to see done to help the situation is the following:
(edit) A wiki that's easier to edit and navigate, e.g., mediawiki, which would mean
More folks updating the wiki with the ability to edit subsections
More folks viewing the wiki with auto-created tables of contents
(edit)A single 'post your questions here' newbie thread to limit the amount of new threads created
(edit2)A thread or wiki entry linked at the top of every forum with proper forum etiquette.
(edit2) idea about restricting users according to post count removed
All of these suggestions will make this site more manageable and usable for all.
If you have any ideas, comments or opinions for or against, or just want to add to the list of suggestions, I look forward to them.
UPDATE 03-13-08
Thanks to Flar and the mods for pushing for new forums! Hopefully these changes, along with more member contributions, we will be able to fight back the redundant thread problem. I've noticed that quite a few senior members have taken a similar stance as I have with new users & redundant threads. I've been trying to either:
Giving the new user a search term (that we know will help), or
given the new user a way to navigate and use the resources here, mostly created by us to prevent users from asking questions in the first place, or
given the noob the links he wanted.
If you're genuinely interested in helping others, you'll realize that two of the three ways actually teach a person new things, which means they'll be better off on their own, while #3 only encourages them to ask more questions.
Finally, for all of you that may be new or have less post counts, it's not the amount of time you've been here reading, because that's not contributing back to the community. So my suggestion to you would be to come back and re-read this thread after you've contributed back to the forum by having at least 500+ genuinely helpful posts and see if you feel the same way.
And I don't mean suggestions to fix a soft key issue by bashing the keyboard with a screwdriver, like someone who has flamed this thread
_Alex_ said:
I'm really frustrated with this forum. I was about to become a lurker again and stop contributing, but I realized that this is not the solution.
Since the Kaiser forums are the most active forums on the entire site, we need some changes to make it better for all.
What I'd like to see done to help the situation is the following:
Restrict new threads to members (30 posts), forcing junior members to reply to existing threads. If new threads continue to be a problem, increase the limit to senior member status (100 posts).
More folks updating the wiki
actual comments for wiki updates so folks know what's new(I'm guilty of not doing this too) or an actual what's new page.
Both of these suggestions will make this site more manageable and usable for all.
If you have any ideas, comments or opinions for or against, or just want to add to the list of suggestions, I look forward to them.
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I couldn't agree more. A big part of the problem is the refusal of some to read or search before posting. When they don't get an immediate answer in an existing thread they start a new one. Maybe the answer is to allow the number of daily posts to be restricted by member status, with senior members being unresticted and moving downward from there.
To bad you can't put all of the threads inside the new sticky. That way, to post a new thread, you had to go thru the new sticky. Other than that, the only option I can think of is to hunt the redundant thread poster down and dismember them slowly on live t.v. broadcasted only to XDA members.
Edit:
I personally vote for my second option.
Agree with both suggestions. Mods...any comments? I have not dealt with forum software before...are those restrictions able to be implemented with this forum?
I've always liked the idea of limiting new people from starting threads, but I don't think we can judge on number of posts. I think this will just end with people joining, throwing an extra 30 useless posts into the first threads they come across, then posting their question thread.
I've always liked the idea of making someone wait 24 hours between registering and posting AT ALL. This way, we can still help those people with a genuine problem fairly quickly (rather than making them wait a week) but still weed out those who ask questions that could be answered by 2 seconds of thinking or looking.
Just my 2 cents!
Great suggestions _Alex_. There should be a stew time for new forum members. A 30 post limit should do it because by then one should have learned a little bit at least.
And now that there's a Google search box near the top of the page HOPEFULLY that cuts down on redundant new post.
@kwickone - Yes, it's possible and quite easy at that.
maybe there should be a noob section like hofo has for banned members. and you have to wait a while before you can post in the regular threads. then wait even longer before you can start a new thread.
Perhaps a rethinking........................................
Okay, this is a common problem on here. Over and over -- endless threads on this subject. It cannot be solved with current technology.
Embrace the problem.
Sandwich method:
Commend them on their new purchase of the new phone they got. Great!
Then advise them to search. Read and learn.
Then Commend their enthusiasm for Any effort they show.
...
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
This forum has turned into a user manual / tech support.
sd73ta said:
maybe there should be a noob section like hofo has for banned members. and you have to wait a while before you can post in the regular threads. then wait even longer before you can start a new thread.
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There already is a noob section...the problem is no one reads it!
I waited 3 months before my 1st post or flash. I shadowed the threads, followed the chefs at that time (Faria, Molski, Xelencin, Risidoro) and watched the results of people flashing their ROMs. I waited till all was clear before I flashed.
Nowadays, people are buying expensive devices and just jumping into deep water without knowing how to swim and the cry to the lifeguard for help.
Would there be any way to link keywords to threads that already exist before its posted... eg if I started a thread re "no sound help me I dont read"... before it posted a list of threads that exist already would pop up saying something like have you looked at these...? perhaps wikis could be linked in the same way... or is this not possible...? cheers
dwny said:
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
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This is not very userfriendly for people who do search before posting. Considering not every new user who joins the forum is a "lazy" noob.
Maybe it is an idea to have it a bit like the "Facepunch forum" of GMOD. (for non gamer, it a HL2 mod forum) They had exactly the same problem only a little bit bigger then it is on this forum.
They solved it by some sort of rate system. Forum users can rate a post. If a user get a certain amount of negative points he is banned from the forum for 24 or something like that. You can also rate someone if he makes clever remarks or usefull contributions and rate him with a "thanks!"
This way people know they are being watched for stupid questions that are posted over and over again and search before they do something stupid. After all, saying stupid thing will cost you a time ban.
If you want to know exactly how it works. Register at the facepunch forum to check it out. It really does work. http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/
Shadowdh said:
Would there be any way to link keywords to threads that already exist before its posted... eg if I started a thread re "no sound help me I dont read"... before it posted a list of threads that exist already would pop up saying something like have you looked at these...? perhaps wikis could be linked in the same way... or is this not possible...? cheers
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Even from my rudimentary knowledge of PHP based forums such as XDA, that would be extremely prohibitive in terms of processing power. Context-sensitive searching (even cached) is very resource intensive, and even implementing it on the Kaiser section ONLY would probably bring the boards to an impressive crawl.
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
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This seems a bit extreme. I bought my Kaiser and spent two or three days reading the wiki, boards, and specific threads about the Tilt. Still, I had a few questions that weren't addressed by existing threads and needed to start at thread. I agree with Alex's idea that there should be a delay (or post count check) for starting a new THREAD, but certainly not posting in general.
Likewise, I'm beginning to toy with cooking my own ROMs, and what if I was interested in starting my own thread to announce its availability? Certainly I shouldn't be required to append it to an existing (and likely unrelated) thread?
To the OP's original concern, I don't think it's a terribly unique thing to XDA. I frequent many forums, and it happens everywhere, particularly those which address technology or relationships. Everyone seems to think that their issues are unique and that they won't be covered in an existing topic. Likewise, many people just aren't comfortable with reading technical specifications, instructions, or explanations. I have dozens of friends capable of READING manuals for the devices they own and getting exactly what they need, but they don't trust the accuracy of the information unless I tell it to them myself.
Reading a bunch of instructions and trusting they are accurate is much scarier than having someone explain it to you, even if they're just regurgitating information already contained in dozens of wikis, texts or posts. This is the primary reason we have TEACHERS; most people are capable of reading everything they need to know, but prefer to have someone relate it to them in a way which caters to their understanding.
Long-winded thoughts aside, I agree with Alex's suggestions in their entirety.
i dont agree with the whole 30 or 100 postsbefore starting a tread but i do agree with the fact that it's annoying to read the same stuff over and over again people comming in with the same problems and questions but there are also people like myself that are longtime members but actually do read alot of posts so that they dont need to ask anything and dont make the 100 or so recommended post before starting a new tread..
but thats my opinion
I don't see how not being able to start a new thread will help.
Assuming I actually did search for my answer and wasn't able to find anything, where would I turn? If I can't start a new thread, I would have no choice but to hijack a different thread. That would probably upset the people involved in that thread more than creating a new thread that they could easily ignore.
How about the new thread button routing through search? So that when you entered the title, it did the search, and at the bottom of the search results there was the button that actually started a new thread.
Steal Google's Idea
Okay, How bout this:
When you open www.xda-developers.com you get this:
A Huge Search Box. Nothing else. You Have to go thru the search box to Even access this site.
?????
...
Jewcookie said:
This is not very userfriendly for people who do search before posting. Considering not every new user who joins the forum is a "lazy" noob.
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It's a matter of setting standards....there are none here!
If you know what the rules are, then you'll follow them....but you have to have rules 1st.
tdsuen said:
I don't see how not being able to start a new thread will help
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That's where the problem lies.
How many new issues are there actually? Most of the issues are when people have a problem with a specific ROM. What's been happening lately is that the Rom threads are huge now and to gain attention to their inquiry, people are starting new threads. If you take a look at who's doing this, it's members under 3 months
(Just my opinion & observation)
zcink said:
Okay, How bout this:
When you open www.xda-developers.com you get this:
A Huge Search Box. Nothing else. You Have to go thru the search box to Even access this site. ?????
Okay still Drunk at the time.
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LOL... It's great to see a drunk guy contributing to this thread as it adds a touch of humor to the entire situation
FWIW, one of the new members decided to post their opinion about our frustration venting over in the regular Kaiser forum (which I read very infrequently because I know that's going to be filled with support requests).
I'm wondering how many new users will chime in on that thread...
arrogance and elitism (were all here for the same thing)
Why not add a few more Mod's and just delete them (threads or posts) quick and easy? Have an automated response to the person that: "the answers you needed were already posted in another thread".
dwny said:
It's a matter of setting standards....there are none here!
If you know what the rules are, then you'll follow them....but you have to have rules 1st.
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I totally agree that there needs to be some forum etiquette that needs to be followed, especially regarding new threads. The question is how we go about enforcing it...
Hopefully the mods/admin will read this thread and take our suggestions to heart.
Sober
Okay
A totally Sane -- Sober guy -- was just joking bout the drunk part.
A Huge Search Engine
You have to go thru the search Engine box to enter this site.
You can't miss.
Anyone who does not search will be Shot On site and put into the Ovens!
Hi Devs!
I'm a noobs here and I would like to express my gratitude to this wonderful forum by giving one suggestion. If I may, that is
You see, I already read so many examples of the problem with noobs-nagging and noobs-bashing phenomenon here. The last one I read is this thread which unfortunately has been closed by the mods, so I cannot post there (so please don't bash me too ). So here I am with a new thread and below is my suggestion:
Why don't we just create a new forum specially made for, maintained by, and populated by Noobs? (in other words: Let's Noobs unite! LoL)
The reason I suggest this is because no matter how hard you try to deny, the fact is still: people will always varied in level of understanding on technical things and purpose of joining a forum. And we still need to accomodate every single of them, nevertheless, since there is no way to forbid noobs to join this forum anyway. Rite? Some even so noobs that either they don't know HOW to search or don't know WHAT to search. Yet, they are still resources, and may have future potentials once groomed well.
So why don't we make it like a school, with grades and levels. For our lovely forum maybe we can just divide into two class: devs and noobs, for simplicity sake.
IMHO, if this is agreed then it will serve 2 purposes:
1. Saving mods and senior member times, so these people can focus more on the development side rather than spending days and hours changing napkins and spoonfed-ing the noobs
2. Saving the noobs from embarassment and humiliation of being bashed because of their lack of knowledges and will to learn. Let them help each other, hey, even noobs has different level of skills you know. So whenever one got smarter, he/she will usually help others with his/her newly-found knowledge. At least that what I did, and that what I also observed happening here. These noobs will still have help from senior members who has more time and capacious heart to stand the noobish stupidity.
Actually, the "general" forum has more or less served to this purpose for quite a while. But I saw it got mixed, because sometimes there are important thread too in this forum and it get buried to the bottom too soon because of noobs stupid questions. Not a very good fit
So there, my suggestion, might need many constructive ideas from all of you to make it more perfect. Such as, how to divide this forum into sub-forums, who will maintain/mods, etc. Thanks, can't wait to see positive responses...
schizo said:
Hi Devs!
I'm a noobs here and I would like to express my gratitude to this wonderful forum by giving one suggestion. If I may, that is
You see, I already read so many examples of the problem with noobs-nagging and noobs-bashing phenomenon here. The last one I read is this thread which unfortunately has been closed by the mods, so I cannot post there (so please don't bash me too ). So here I am with a new thread and below is my suggestion:
Why don't we just create a new forum specially made for, maintained by, and populated by Noobs? (in other words: Let's Noobs unite! LoL)
The reason I suggest this is because no matter how hard you try to deny, the fact is still: people will always varied in level of understanding on technical things and purpose of joining a forum. And we still need to accomodate every single of them, nevertheless, since there is no way to forbid noobs to join this forum anyway. Rite? Some even so noobs that either they don't know HOW to search or don't know WHAT to search. Yet, they are still resources, and may have future potentials once groomed well.
So why don't we make it like a school, with grades and levels. For our lovely forum maybe we can just divide into two class: devs and noobs, for simplicity sake.
IMHO, if this is agreed then it will serve 2 purposes:
1. Saving mods and senior member times, so these people can focus more on the development side rather than spending days and hours changing napkins and spoonfed-ing the noobs
2. Saving the noobs from embarassment and humiliation of being bashed because of their lack of knowledges and will to learn. Let them help each other, hey, even noobs has different level of skills you know. So whenever one got smarter, he/she will usually help others with his/her newly-found knowledge. At least that what I did, and that what I also observed happening here. These noobs will still have help from senior members who has more time and capacious heart to stand the noobish stupidity.
Actually, the "general" forum has more or less served to this purpose for quite a while. But I saw it got mixed, because sometimes there are important thread too in this forum and it get buried to the bottom too soon because of noobs stupid questions. Not a very good fit
So there, my suggestion, might need many constructive ideas from all of you to make it more perfect. Such as, how to divide this forum into sub-forums, who will maintain/mods, etc. Thanks, can't wait to see positive responses...
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noobs will be saved from embarassment as to what you call it if they have done their homework. no need for a thread or section for noobs, it's just a waste of bandwidth. I got 3 simple steps for yah!
1. read the WIKI - thats why it's there, it has a purpose, not just an ornament for this website.
2. use the search function - if you're lost and need information, good ol google search is there. tnx for the dev team that it was incorporated with xda-dev.
3. READ a LOT - read read and read more. try to understand what is happening to a section in a thread. reading is fun, it makes us wiser.
if above doesn't help you then post a thread. it's time to call-out the cavalier and repplies will be given to a smart question.
got it?
I'm bashed..! LoL. But it's ok, no hard feeling.
You take me wrong brother. Actually all effort to encourage noobs to follow the established rules should not be stopped at all. It should be there, in Wikis, in Stickys, in many of our signatures. I couldn't be more agree.
But, as I said, no matter how hard you try to enforce your hammer of "shuddup and read the wikis for OMFG", or as IT guys jargon: RTFM (Read The F Manual)! It will still happened, every now and then.
Please see the link to closed thread in my post #1 to be more clear. Please see threads in General Forum also to be more clear, the forum is polluted with "help.. i'm newbie" kind of threads.
So, again, instead of busy hammering people, why don't we just make a forum for stupid noobs to fool themselves, and maybe for them to learn something and help each other in getting smarter together.
poll is useless
man i don't know what you did before and how were you treated somewhere
but we all were noobs and by reading and learning from others and our experience we got of the noob bench
no noob is treated badly or laughed out or is banned for asking and learning or humiliated...ever
so if you have a question
1.search
2.read wiki and forum
3.and if you read enough and haven't found the question or answer...ask it yourself
you will probably get the answer and wont be humiliated
Could the posts in "Raphael Questions & Answers Here" be mini threads themselves?
I was just wondering about this after reading yet another post from a member about how difficult it could be to trace the thread once it is moved into the big thread, mostly because it would not have all the answers for that particular thread, well, threaded, to the original post anymore. Although the moderators might have contemplated this, but is it possible to have some sort of threading for each post within the big single thread? Maybe something like the threaded SMS feature for the Fuze? I hope this thread stays as a single thread itself , so someone wondering about the same thing I am, knows why things are the way they are. Thanks.
An even better idea would be to create a Raphael Questions and Answers Sub-Forum where people could start threads to ask questions and then keep it as an archive where you can go to find the answer to any question.
new system doesn't work
I totally agree with incisivekeith:
The single-thread Q&A system and the displacer-mods are killing active and concentrated conversations over the issues by forcing it into a chaotic messy HOLY THREAD. This undermines the entire point to exist of the forum
I know I'm missing out on a decent amount of information because I don't even check that thread. It's an absolute mess. Even if I see a new thread that I might want to read that gets moved to that Q&A, I don't even bother. What a waste.
Kevin
Yes, the mods and admins are trying to figure out better ways to organize it but for right now i think it is decided that they will just have one huge thread of all questions and answers because there are way too many threads coming up with simple questions and they want to try and keep things more clean and organized on forums.
If you think its a bad idea take a look into the kaiser section and see how much crap is there. What the mods are doing is a GOOD start to keep the forum clean.
In addition, most of the people that are complaining are the ones that have only been here for a couple months, therefore they have no idea what everyone has been through in the past year and even longer. You (no disrespect) new users here must realize that this has been our home for a long time, there is a certain level of respect and rules that many of us wish would be followed. Those rules are not being followed, so this is a good solution for a problem that has been going on for a while.
ptyindian said:
Yes, the mods and admins are trying to figure out better ways to organize it but for right now i think it is decided that they will just have one huge thread of all questions and answers because there are way too many threads coming up with simple questions and they want to try and keep things more clean and organized on forums.
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Yeah well having one huge thread isn't exactly clean... It makes it terribly hard to find ANYTHING. They can call it the Questions & Answers Thread but that's just a poor way of trying to address a very large issue.
1. People are going to start a thread asking for help.
2. The moderators will merge that thread with ALL THE OTHER threads of people asking questions.
3. Now that person who was asking a question before will go back to their thread and see it was merged with that HUGE questions and answers thread and never be able to find their question or the potential answer...
Result of all of this?
They're going to start a new thread asking their question over and over again until they eventually get frustrated and give up, possibly driving them off... That's never a good way to run a site...
WE NEED A dedicated "Questions & Answers" SUB-FORUM within every major device's main forum. This will provide a place for people to ask their questions, get their answers, and move on. It will also provide the users with the ability to have those mini-discussions without having to worry about the moderators taking their thread and moving it to that giant mess you all call the questions and answers thread.
Just my 2 cents...
Hey yeah i totally understand what you are feeling. I brought the same exact point up in a thread here and here was the response by a mod. They are trying to figure things out too and in order to get a Q&A subforum they have to go through different things and get permissions and stuff like that and it apparently is not that easy.I understand what you are saying but for right now that is what the mods and admins decided was the best thing to do and this is only a trial from what i understand it is not permanent. They just wanted to see how it is going to work.
ptyindian said:
Hey yeah i totally understand what you are feeling. I brought the same exact point up in a thread here and here was the response by a mod. They are trying to figure things out too and in order to get a Q&A subforum they have to go through different things and get permissions and stuff like that and it apparently is not that easy.I understand what you are saying but for right now that is what the mods and admins decided was the best thing to do and this is only a trial from what i understand it is not permanent. They just wanted to see how it is going to work.
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Yeah I hope they figure this out sooner than later because I know that if I was the one asking a question only to come back a few hours later to find out that my post is now lost in that thread I wouldn't even waste my time trying to find the post let alone the answer...
People are gonna start getting discouraged and maybe that's their goal... Idk... I hope not but that's what's going to happen. People are gonna ask their question and then it's gonna be lost in that thread and they're never gonna find the answer IF someone actually reads through the thread enough to actually answer it.
I have to make this clear - my intention to begin this thread. It is certainly not to question the policy of the moderators of merging the questions in one big thread, because as KD8DNS said, people (new users) often open a thread for anything and everything, most of the times, without researching for the issue. I am highly technically inclined, but I could be considered a "new user" myself, not unfamiliar with the whole smart phone thing as I had a Nokia smart phone before the Fuze, but new to the Windows Mobile platform, and boy I have learned in the past couple of weeks alone.
I posted the following in response to a post in the big thread, which brought into light the lack of convenience in searching for a solution in the big thread:
"I had that line of thinking for a while, so I won't say you are saying something that is unreasonable. But, if it makes you feel a little better, maybe you can try for the keywords for that thread/post by using the "Search this Thread" menu at the top of any thread. Even with that, you will not have a thread that would have all the answers for that one issue in one thread, I agree, but maybe this huge thread is required, as there are/were so many threads for issues that have already been discussed or could really be answered in a big thread like this."
So, as I said, I most certainly understand the reason due to which the moderators decided to merge many threads. Having said that, and also considering there are certain rules, all I was opening for discussion, was whether there was a way to have mini threads within that thread or some alternate solution or not, which would not only reduce the maintenance and clumsiness of many threads for already discussed issues, but also be efficient in providing information to new users, for some of whom, frankly, this forum could be their first ever forum. That was the point I was wanting to discuss, and, I am reiterating the purpose of this thread, which is not to question any policies, but to just discuss an alternative. Thanks.
Okay, since i'm the moderator being discussed i figured i should weigh in on the matter.
First, if you have an issue with anything that i do, feel free to PM me. I cannot promise that i'll change my mind about any of my decisions, but i will certainly listen to your point of view.
Second, a couple users were correct in saying MOST of the posts that I merge are redundant questions posted by people who don't know how to search or special issues that aren't going to apply to many people.
Finally, if there are several posts that you think would be beneficial to be posted as a separate thread for discussion about a significant issue then send me list of links to the posts you'd like to have merged into a separate thread, and I can pull all the posts together and put them in a new thread. It will just save me a lot of time if i don't have to look around for them, and increase the likelihood i will get to it sooner.
That's about it. I'll leave this open for a few to see if anyone has something useful to be gleaned, but to be honest, if it turns into people complaining because they don't like the Q & A thread then i'll probably just close it.
darfri said:
I totally agree with incisivekeith:
The single-thread Q&A system and the displacer-mods are killing active and concentrated conversations over the issues by forcing it into a chaotic messy HOLY THREAD. This undermines the entire point to exist of the forum
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You obviously don't know what the point of the forum is. The Q&A people have very little to do with development, which is, in fact, actually the point of the forum.
dharvey4651 said:
They're going to start a new thread asking their question over and over again until they eventually get frustrated and give up, possibly driving them off... That's never a good way to run a site...
WE NEED A dedicated "Questions & Answers" SUB-FORUM within every major device's main forum.
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This site has never been about being tech support to people not really interested in learning, so most of the users who would be discouraged that easily probably aren't users that were gonna stick around and contribute a lot anyway. That being said, right now the option is either to merge most of the new threads OR to delete them, because they're VERY redundant. I don't think anyone wants me to delete them, so for now i 'm doing the best we can. Right now it's been only a little over a week that we've been doing this. In that time there have been HUNDREDS of threads created in ONE subforum alone. We are working on reshaping a rapidly changing culture around here. If we swing too far toward the casual user we will lose our developers, but we don't want to completely ignore them. So have patience, offer constructive advice.
Thank you scotchua for being kind to offer a PM helpdesk... but I am afraid that you might get flooded with questions if you offer your help too graciously.
I have seen many dumb questions starting a thread around here like "my device is slow! What to do?" but those threads will also disappear in "history" and I don't understand how this really bugs anyone. We have a search option here. I understand that this is a development oriented forum BUT isn't an "end users" expression/opinion/frustration/rapture an important value?
I'd see a per-device Q&A subforum as a very good idea. You'll see that this subforum will be the most active. xda-dev is very good site and it should also remain flexible. I'm sorry that I am not a developer and don't have those skills. It might sound silly but "children" like me and other non-developers think different than hi-tech-development-geniuses and might point to problems that are more dysfunctional in practice than the ones that superbrains notice.
Actually I have stopped initiating my thoughts/worries here because of that new filter
darfri said:
Thank you scotchua for being kind to offer a PM helpdesk... but I am afraid that you might get flooded with questions if you offer your help too graciously.
I have seen many dumb questions starting a thread around here like "my device is slow! What to do?" but those threads will also disappear in "history" and I don't understand how this really bugs anyone. We have a search option here. I understand that this is a development oriented forum BUT isn't an "end users" expression/opinion/frustration/rapture an important value?
I'd see a per-device Q&A subforum as a very good idea. You'll see that this subforum will be the most active. xda-dev is very good site and it should also remain flexible. I'm sorry that I am not a developer and don't have those skills. It might sound silly but "children" like me and other non-developers think different than hi-tech-development-geniuses and might point to problems that are more dysfunctional in practice than the ones that superbrains notice.
Actually I have stopped initiating my thoughts/worries here because of that new filter
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First, I never offered to be a one man help desk cause you're right, there is no way i'd have the time, haha. What I did say is that people who have questions about WHY i did something should feel free to ask me, BEFORE they start complaining about it publically. The reality is that there is no way to make everyone happy. I have people who PM me saying they think what I'm doing is great, some who say that i'm not doing enough, some who hate it and think i'm ruining the forum, and some who disagree with it but understand....the site is huge and there are differing opinions.
I don't want anyone to be offended, but the reality is that not all opinions are of equal value to me, and accordingly, while i will gladly listen to ANY user, certain users or groups of users will have more pull because of their length of time here, my perceived quality of their ideas, or because of their contributions. Some may think this unfair, but then someone always does, and at least I am transparent about which factors i value most.
As I have said several times, a Q&A Sub-Forum could maybe be possible, however, it's really barely been a week with this Q&A thread and sometimes these things take time to develop. I really do think that the 20 new threads started every day take a lot away from the sub-forum as they push the actually valueable threads down to the second and third page most of the time. My preference honestly would be to delete every thread started and PM each user to post their questions in the Q&A thread instead. Then if people would use the quote feature it would be much easier to follow a conversation related to your question. Unfortunately, upon discussion with some other users it was determined that it might be a bit of a "heavy-handed" approach at this point.
The simple reality is that the rules are clearly posted everywhere, and if people would read them, then this whole issue would be moot. I personally don't even think it would be unfair to administer a short ban for people so blatantly disregarding the rules; however, at this point it has been deemed an excessive remedy to the issue. The reality is that MOSt of the threads being started are about self-inflicted issues, created by users who don't search or read...so while I have sympathy and am happy to help them, my sympathy runs short when they start complaining because it's hard to read 3-4 pages of posts a day to find their answer. If only any of those whining about this knew how much each mods personal time is devoted to sorting through everyone else's posts they'd certainly quit whining so much about having to spend a few minutes to find a solution.
First, I have to tell you that XDA-Developers is my most valuable web site for WM support. And I understand the original intent of this site as a site for developers and your desire to protect its intent. But success breeds success and in part it is because of the value of the information here that new/basic users are attracted to this site. If that is really what you don't want, point those users and questions to a different site and let us know where to go. I have downloaded and used the custom roms prepared for the Tilt and if I keep the Fuze, I intend to do the same. But I also just received my
Fuze and have very basic questions which have ben relegated to a post that will make finding a response difficult.
With that said, I don't think that your intent is to chase people away. After all, the added user base does give your site greater authority, if that is of value to you. But confining basic questions to a single thread takes away from the usefulness of a site such as this for those users. So, a hopefully constructive suggestion. Consider implementing the sub forum for questions and answers. If you don't want to monitor it yourself or have a developer do that, query some of your more valuable posters to see if they will perform that function. I am sure that some posters are not developers and would be willing to support that function. It costs nothing to ask. This would keep new users here. After all, many new users grow and eventually can add to the usefulness of the community as a whole.
Just a thought.
ourtech said:
But confining basic questions to a single thread takes away from the usefulness of a site such as this for those users.
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I have highlighted the key term in bold. The problem we're facing is that most users are thinking individually. What is best for THEM when THEY are looking for ONE piece of info. I am really trying to think what is best for the site as a whole, and in my opinion having 30 new threads a day in just this one section is not what is best for people who are actually trying to find valuable resources. We had the same problem with the Development & Hacking section until we really cracked down on random thread posting in the wrong place, and created the Question & Answers section.
I know that people are frustrated that we only have one thread for their questions and answers, but the simple fact is that there are only 4 or 5 pages being added each day, so if you asked a question it really isn't that hard to see if it's being answered, which most of them are. I do agree that a sub-forum might be a possible solution to the problem, but even then people are still not going to even bother reading the rules.
Here's where my main objection comes in, and i sincerely hope that people understand me on this. It is fairly offensive to me for people to tell me it's too much work to read 4 pages in the Q&A thread, which i spend 10 times as much time cleaning up, helping users, and settling petty arguments between childish users on the forum every day. So you'll understand why i see the problem as being larger than just a little inconvenience for a few users wanting to ask simple questions. Most users don't even bother to post in the thread titled "Don't Start A New Thread".
No offense intended to you because I, as the questioner, have no problem reading 10 pages, 70 pages or 170 pages for an answer and it is your site. I don't own it and have no say in the rules. If I want to use the facilities of this site then I should folllow the rules. But I am not sure that I communicated the point I intended. Respectfully, my point is perhaps better expressed like this:
Noob user has a question and posts it in the normal manner in a new thread. Users new and old see it in the list of threads. The topic is what attracts them or steers them away. Someone sees it and wishes to contribute, others will ignore it. That is the way that it traditionally works.
What doesn't happen when all questions are lumped into one thread is that only readers looking for answers to questions are likely to wade through that thread. There is no possibility of a thread title that might catch attention. If someone hasn't been keeping up with that thread 70 pages of posts can be intimidating. So the prospective audience is reduced. If you are saying that this reduces the usefulness of the site as a whole I am puzzled as it makes it more likely to me that I would come and see what is new. In telling me that it harms the site as a whole makes it seem that I am not the kind of user you want hanging around. I don't think that that is your intent, but when you put me in a corner and say that my questions are not useful to the members as a whole, how am I to take that?
It is just my viewpoint as someone that is looking to contact other users of the Fuze. I hope that rather than take offense, it is with the best of motives that I add these comments. I like this site and it has been of real use in the past. I sold my Tilt and I am not sure that the Fuze is a keeper, so I may not be around. But I offer these observations with the genuine desire to help. Best wishes to you.
My point was simply that having 30 new threads added in this sub-forum alone, pushes the very useful threads onto the 3rd or 4th page where people are far less likely to see them. That's who it makes the site less useful.
As for the Q&A thread, I don't expect anyone to look for answers in there. I simply expect that people would post their questions in there instead of starting a new thread. I honestly don't care if people ask the same question 100 times in that thread. That's what it's there for. Most people will get quick responses and move on to something else.
Disrespectfulness
darfri said:
I have seen many dumb questions starting a thread around here like "my device is slow! What to do?" but those threads will also disappear in "history" and I don't understand how this really bugs anyone
KD8DNS said:
You (no disrespect) new users here must realize that this has been our home for a long time
aaand, scotchua said & said & said & ...:
You obviously don't know what the point of the forum is.
not all opinions are of equal value to me
If only any of those whining about this knew how much each mods...
I personally don't even think it would be unfair to administer a short ban for people so blatantly disregarding the rules
The problem we're facing is that most users are thinking individually.
I do agree that a sub-forum might be a possible solution to the problem, but even then people are still not going to even bother reading the rules.
As for the Q&A thread, I don't expect anyone to look for answers in there
if it turns into people complaining because they don't like the Q & A thread then i'll probably just close it.
i have followed this thread from the moment it was created as i shared the same feeling as the op with the dissatisfaction with the current policy of merging all qa threads into one qa thread. i have seen how the similar problem of not-that-constructive posts was solved in the general d&h forum by creating a qa subforum, and i thought that was the right solution.
in the mean time, the situation before the qa thread was not disastrous, as darfri indicated.
i was really annoyed by the disrespectful reply of KD8DNS and the many disrespectful replies by scotchua. it is really amazing how scotchua was throwing insults right and left to everybody who criticized the single-qa-thread policy. THIS is what should be totally unacceptable, not a naive user's question that have asked and answered a billion times. the use of terms like whining tells you that even if you are the brightest, you can't be the best leader (or moderator in our case). scotchua's thoughts of feeling that developers are better than non-developers are simple wrong! i am sure scotchua knows that many of his fellow smarter-than-the-rest-of-us developers have gained a lot of knowledge and came up with many ideas by reading such "valueless" threads.
scotchua might think it is unimportant, but i usually tend to the qa subforum and try to answer general simple questions that i can answer, and i have noticed many others do the same, from a user point of view, such a single qa thread just kills this kind of participation.
forums exist on so many topics all over the internet, and the simple feature in all such forums of having non-active threads go down, is the simple solution to the problem scotchua is "whining" about by having and trying to explain by writing posts of 100s of words to everybody who is disagreeing with that useless thread policy.
the single thread for all qa's policy is obviously wrong because a questioners can't find answers to their question, if anybody ever cared to try answer it in such a mess!
and such disrespectful responses should stop. being a mod doesn't give such privileges.
I know i don't have the BEST reputation around here but i know what i am talking about for the most part and i am begging for you to help clean up this site and forum. For the last few weeks the number of repetitive posts has been absolutely ridiculous, every time I get on XDA i see so many threads that all ask the same thing. There are some many users that apparently think that this site is a tech support site and do not respect us at all. I know that XDA is THE site for the latest info on windows mobile and now android, but people seem to join just to ask simple questions like "my phone is stuck on t-mobile G1 screen" or "BRICK PLEASE HELP!!" most of the people on this site have lives and jobs but i do not. i have no problem helping new members and old members alike, but i do have a problem with stupidity. if a member is not capable or not willing to search for an answer then they either A. don't need it, or B. shouldn't have tried to begin with. i beg that every member on this site go through the first 10 pages of this development forum for our dream and count how many repetitive threads there are open or closed.
i request that we get another mod, i know neoobs and mikey are very busy and do not have time to monitor the forum 24-7 even between the two of them. if we were to get another mod for the forum i think we could start closing/deleting threads that have no right being opened/started, i am not saying that we need to start closing threads left and right, but i know there are at least 10 threads in the first ten pages that talk about Bricked phone that either tried the new SPL, or some other reason. if we had another mod then repeat threads could be closed after a link or answer, that way we aren't completely rude to people but we can keep the forums clean.
Also i realize we can't just go banning people left and right, but if a person joins XDA and in a week has only posted a few times and all posts have been new threads asking about things that have been discussed in detail then they should be suspended to give them a chance to learn how to use the search function and read a few threads and the rules.
i also agree with this.
everytime i log on to xda i have to catch up with a couple pages of new threads and its ridiculous.
I think if u went through those pages u would see 3 threads saying the same think. Well I thinks some got removed (just like this one will) but frankly I don't think there is solution maybe if u had to take quiz befor you could become a member or something. I have I had mistakes on here when i started about posting dumb stuff but yeah that's my 2 cents.
I agree the activity level of this forum (448 - Dream Android Development) ought to merit additional moderation. I mean absolutely no disrespect to those already volunteering their time to keep things tidy -- quite the opposite.
I'm only posting in this thread to voice the opinion that a couple more mods might go a long way to keep some of the more basic questions and chatter relegated to a more appropriate venue (447 - Dream, most likely) and keep the front page ripe with the glorious development meat we all crave.
I'm not saying I'm the chap for the job, but I'd sure be willing to pitch in if consensus agrees there is need. I f5 the site pretty much all day as it is.
I tend to agree but I'm a newb around here still more or less, well to xda anyways. I try to help folks but lose my patience when someone quotes the answer and asks for help. It did give me an ambitious idea though along the lines of a catchall guide for rooting fixing your phone.
i do not think that the solution is as simple as a quiz since this site is a great place for so many phones(anything made by HTC) and no one quiz would cover everything. i am not saying that i need to be the moderator, but i wouldn't complain if i was. i respect the mods that we have and i think they are doing an excellent job. i don't have a job, and don't go to school, i spent about four hours a day sleeping and tthe rest of my time i am either on Xda or trying to find some new fun thing to do with my phone. i do not really have any one specific person in mind that should or could be a mod, but i think that with just one more person they could make a wold of a difference on this forum. just think about it that's all i'm asking
One of the problems I have faced on here is that there are WAY too many threads that keep going and going, till they are 100 pages or better. When this happens, it is hard to expect people to read the entire thing, only to get to the last page and find that the method has now changed. I am sure a lot of them give up and just ask in a new thread.
One thing that I think would definitely help the clutter is if the stickied posts are very clearly and plainly worded- almost to the point of "dumbing it down", so the newbies can understand it. For example, someone reads in the market that a program requires "root". They decide they are up to try rooting, and look here for the answers. There is a nicely written sticky by Koush that covers it all. That is a nicely written and easy to follow thread. But wait, now they read that Cupcake is out...just look at all the options. Unless they knew they were looking specifically for "JFv1.51 CRB43" how would they know where to start? Set the standards for stickies high (especially the titles!), and maybe it will catch some of the newbies.
Just my $.02
tubaking182 said:
I know i don't have the BEST reputation around here but i know what i am talking about for the most part and i am begging for you to help clean up this site and forum. For the last few weeks the number of repetitive posts has been absolutely ridiculous, every time I get on XDA i see so many threads that all ask the same thing. There are some many users that apparently think that this site is a tech support site and do not respect us at all. I know that XDA is THE site for the latest info on windows mobile and now android, but people seem to join just to ask simple questions like "my phone is stuck on t-mobile G1 screen" or "BRICK PLEASE HELP!!" most of the people on this site have lives and jobs but i do not. i have no problem helping new members and old members alike, but i do have a problem with stupidity. if a member is not capable or not willing to search for an answer then they either A. don't need it, or B. shouldn't have tried to begin with. i beg that every member on this site go through the first 10 pages of this development forum for our dream and count how many repetitive threads there are open or closed.
i request that we get another mod, i know neoobs and mikey are very busy and do not have time to monitor the forum 24-7 even between the two of them. if we were to get another mod for the forum i think we could start closing/deleting threads that have no right being opened/started, i am not saying that we need to start closing threads left and right, but i know there are at least 10 threads in the first ten pages that talk about Bricked phone that either tried the new SPL, or some other reason. if we had another mod then repeat threads could be closed after a link or answer, that way we aren't completely rude to people but we can keep the forums clean.
Also i realize we can't just go banning people left and right, but if a person joins XDA and in a week has only posted a few times and all posts have been new threads asking about things that have been discussed in detail then they should be suspended to give them a chance to learn how to use the search function and read a few threads and the rules.
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So, I've been hanging around and reading this forum since around November last year. That is about 2 full months before I even bought my G1. I love this forum, I can always find the answers I need and I have NEVER once posted a new thread. I use the search function, follow links posted in other forums and just plain old read. That is why I'm probably still listed as a noob. The thing is I have experience in a multitude of forums on a multitude of different topics and items so I know to usually keep my mouth shut unless its a contribution or an emergency. With that said...
The problem is that not everyone knows forum etiquette. Not everyone has been to a forum community and knows how to search. Not everyone knows that search doesn't always work so now its time to scroll threads. Not everyone knows patience like us to take our time to learn. In fact, I think most of the noobs here probably don't know anything about forums, what their about and how they work. All they know is they got a new G1 and SOMEONE said, "hey, you wanna make you phone cooler, go to www.xda-developers.com", or "how did you get that wifi tether thing to work?" So, they show up totally confused and excited to make their g1 experience better. They search a little, read a little and end up completely lost like I did the first time I joined a forum because they really don't know anything but they want to learn. I know we post, "Read this first or get locked", or something like that, but they honestly don't know what to do. This is, in fact a forum, which is defined as a place to meet to discuss things. If we just want to dictate and not discuss, ask questions, answer, and help then why have an open forum?
I will give you this though, there are those that just don't care, know rules, know the proper flow of events and know how to do it in general but still just do what they want. The problem is, though, those are few and far between.
I constantly have to ready, "why is this thread here?", or "mods lock this please", or "don't you know how to use the search function"? Maybe the answer to that question is NO. So why not bee true senior members and answer the question but teach how to use search instead of ridiculing and acting like they are stupid. The fact is new people will ALWAYS show up to forums and will ALWAYS ask questions that you feel are dumb, and ALWAYS start threads without searching or reading so why get mad about it? Answer the question or don't answer the question and blow it off. Why such a big uproar?
Just my .02, sorry if my rant pissed you off and I hope you don't lock me for it.
gospeed.racer said:
One of the problems I have faced on here is that there are WAY too many threads that keep going and going, till they are 100 pages or better. When this happens, it is hard to expect people to read the entire thing, only to get to the last page and find that the method has now changed. I am sure a lot of them give up and just ask in a new thread.
Just my $.02
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I couldn't agree more. Maybe more Forum Titles would help instead of just development? We could start one call How To's. I would click there first in a heart beat and then find the thread about how to do things.
gospeed.racer said:
One of the problems I have faced on here is that there are WAY too many threads that keep going and going, till they are 100 pages or better. When this happens, it is hard to expect people to read the entire thing, only to get to the last page and find that the method has now changed. I am sure a lot of them give up and just ask in a new thread.
One thing that I think would definitely help the clutter is if the stickied posts are very clearly and plainly worded- almost to the point of "dumbing it down", so the newbies can understand it.
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This is most certainly the case. I spent a lot of time writing and rewriting my SPL and HTC_CIME sticky posts so the first post would be as structured and easy to understand as possible.
That said, some people are also just lazy, don't know/care about stickies, or just don't have reading skills. Also, this is a hacking community. Information and developments move quickly. The sticky posts often become irrelevant or contain obsolete information pretty quickly. You have to just trust that the owner of the sticky will keep it maintained... but that's not always the case.
The basic problem here is do you promote inclusiveness or would you rather have a small pool of high quality members? If it were up to me, any time someone starts a new thread to ask "how i root" or "my a2sd broken HALP" it would be instaban.
setzer715 said:
I couldn't agree more. Maybe more Forum Titles would help instead of just development? We could start one call How To's. I would click there first in a heart beat and then find the thread about how to do things.
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in my experience, more subforums at this stage of the game almost always causes more headaches for mods than they assuage
re: your previous post -- i really feel you on the forum etiquette point, but it's hard to use that rationale to justify "PLEASE HELP - URGENT!!1" threads in the development forum, imo.
I am not a fan of wiki's, but a sub-forum for a Wiki style "how to" sounds to me like a great idea. It would be up to the OP's to keep them "fresh" though. Give all the developers a place to put their stuff, and keep questions out of it. Just recent, fresh methods and software, and easy to follow instructions. I wish I had something to contribute, as I really think this idea may help.
gospeed.racer said:
I am not a fan of wiki's, but a sub-forum for a Wiki style "how to" sounds to me like a great idea.
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xda has a wiki actually. No one uses it though. Also, you'd be a fool to think that just because there is a well maintained wiki that newbies won't keep posting their spam anyway.
jashsu said:
xda has a wiki actually. No one uses it though. Also, you'd be a fool to think that just because there is a well maintained wiki that newbies won't keep posting their spam anyway.
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I don't think we were actually saying another wiki. By the way you'd be amazed at how many people don't know what wiki is. Anyways, I think we're talking about a specific "How To" section that cant be posted on or responses on. It will have have How To's for Root, A2SD and whatever should go there.
alapapa said:
in my experience, more subforums at this stage of the game almost always causes more headaches for mods than they assuage
re: your previous post -- i really feel you on the forum etiquette point, but it's hard to use that rationale to justify "PLEASE HELP - URGENT!!1" threads in the development forum, imo.
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I agree, it would take more moderation. Someone to step and and handle it and I'm pretty sure the guy that started this thread was already asking for that. I'm just trying to off my opinion on what that new mod or mod's could moderate.
I'm really not trying to rationale the posts, I'm simply trying to provide a different point of view. As I've stated before, anytime there is an open forum for anyone to join there will ALWAYS be those posts. We could make it exclusive, where even I couldn't be part, but what would the point of that be? I thought the point was for people to share information and knowledge? Either way, lets let the dev's and mod's figure out what to do. I just hope I get to stick around.
setzer715 said:
I don't think we were actually saying another wiki. By the way you'd be amazed at how many people don't know what wiki is. Anyways, I think we're talking about a specific "How To" section that cant be posted on or responses on. It will have have How To's for Root, A2SD and whatever should go there.
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A stickied thread that indexes the [HOW TO] threads works pretty well for this purpose w/o as much overhead
setzer715 said:
I just hope I get to stick around.
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i wouldn't worry. I don't think anyone (in their right mind, that is) wants to make this board exclusive to the point that potentially meritorious members can't contribute or get valid questions answered.
after all...most noobs eventually grow out of it if they stick around long enough
I agree with many points,
Our forum is cluttered
We need more mods
I want a subforum for questions and answers that I can move all threads that are asking questions to.
Currently it is hard to know what to sticky and what not to sticky when we have a lot of topics in one forum. (how to root, each custom rom, how to get tethering working, how to register, etc)
neoobs said:
I agree with many points,
Our forum is cluttered
We need more mods
I want a subforum for questions and answers that I can move all threads that are asking questions to.
Currently it is hard to know what to sticky and what not to sticky when we have a lot of topics in one forum. (how to root, each custom rom, how to get tethering working, how to register, etc)
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I believe we should have a troubleshooting subsection, which would automatically filter out all the "I have a brick" type threads from the development forum.
neoobs said:
I agree with many points,
Our forum is cluttered
We need more mods
I want a subforum for questions and answers that I can move all threads that are asking questions to.
Currently it is hard to know what to sticky and what not to sticky when we have a lot of topics in one forum. (how to root, each custom rom, how to get tethering working, how to register, etc)
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This was kinda my point. Development should be just that. Direct people looking for how to's or question's to different forums. Instead of just an extra How To, how about a Q n A one also? Then the development forum wont be cluttered and can just be for developers when they are working on stuff.
First of all, (before someone decides to jump the gun and start with the flaming) I'd like to note that even though this is my first post, I have been visiting these forums for quite some time. I am not new here and the first time I visited was long-long-long before I actually registered.
I love XDA. It is the go-to source for all my phone modifying needs. XDA is the very best there is hands down!
My biggest gripe with XDA is that there are too many people posting in threads with posts that are unhelpful, off topic, intended to flame the user that posted the OP, and sometimes just a complete waste of a read.
I think (and this is just my opinion) that these forums would improve significantly if the moderators would delete all posts that are unhelpful toward the OP. We need our moderators to do more moderating and maybe even recruiting more moderators to get the job done if it is too much for the current moderating crew to handle.
As most of you XDA veterans know, we get a lot of people that drop in and ask questions that have been asked and answered again and again and again. I feel that the reason why new people don't bother to read, is because 9 times out of ten there will be a long list of posts following a question and it becomes a real chore for the newbies to go through reading every single important and insignificant post in between, they get frustrated, give up, and start a new thread with a question that has already been asked a zillion times.
Anyone agree?
i totally agree with you. the two things that get annoying (at least for me): people asking the same question and people posting something unhelpful (like i saw one person asking for a link and some other guy was like "find it yourself, its not that hard")
but things are going to change:
http://www.xda-developers.com/annou...-not-an-official-statement-but-a-perspective/
It's an Internet forum. Unless we start charging admission to users, it will not change. It's just the nature of the beast.
misfitdeluxe said:
I feel that the reason why new people don't bother to read, is because 9 times out of ten there will be a long list of posts following a question and it becomes a real chore for the newbies to go through reading every single important and insignificant post in between, they get frustrated, give up, and start a new thread with a question that has already been asked a zillion times.
Anyone agree?
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Welcome to the <s>wasteland</s> internet. mods have a hard jobs and do it for free.
The best solution imho is a voting system like yahoo answers but I have never seen it done before lol
Trust me d-..-b im from the webs
Would you go to a car forum and ask someone how to go about changing your oil? Or how you can change a light? I get that new people will show up, and we've all been there, but some effort should be put forth.
I rarely bother answering questions that are discussed entirely too often, and sometimes (for kicks) I will Google someones query in the closest manner that they happened to ask it and I am shocked at what I find. I dunno what is worse; a way too frequently discussed topic being asked about or the 'I tried searching but XDA search sucks / is down.' Shocking to think XDA and Google search were so tightly integrated.
I get that people are going to be new. It's fun, in that sense, to know that so many people are just getting into it. But you should be capable of poking around before diving in.
I won't deny that I've inquired about something that I found out about AFTER asking. Asked a question and then followed it up with a Google search. Rookie move. Sure. But 9 /10 times that doesn't happen. If that many questions actually need to get asked.
As far as improving the forums ... as Android grows you will only get more and more users. More and more questions. Hopefully telling one person to search will be seen by 5 newcomers and influence them to do the same. I always tell people to Google search first anyways as forum search tools tend to just be so up in the air as they are. Not XDA specific, but naturally.
Sometimes I'm also just reading through a few threads and don't have the time to bother. Even for a legitimate reply or unhelpful post. It all depends. The threads will continue. Questions will flow. Patience will be lost. The Forum's greatly improved? I think not.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App
I'm been member of many forums and its same everywhere. All mods can do is do a best job as they can do to keep forums reasonable.
The best solution imho is a voting system like yahoo answers but I have never seen it done before lol
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An excellent idea, and I have seen it done before. There is a voting system in place at the Adobe forums. It is a very convenient and effective mechanism for users to quickly find the right information they need. Having something of that capacity here would be pure elite!