CAN THE SHIFT STILL MAKE A SPLASH IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?
To a lot of the community it must seem that the highpoint of the HTC Shifts anticipation was the Hugo Ortega review of the device back in August [Additional Video Link]. The community seemed to Match Hugo’s enthusiasm for the device at the time, and understandably; the device has the potential to take the UMPC and pocketPC platform a great leap forward and all, since its first revelation for sub $2000. But since that high note and as more details have trickled out about the Shift the enthusiasm from both communities (UMPC and Pocket PC) seems to have diminished in proportional response [Comments here offer a glimpse to some of the broad criticisms now circulating].
The HTC Shift isn’t the first device to have specification changes or features taken out along the production path. First to go has been the 1.2Ghz Processor, followed by Windows Mobile 6 (at least a full version), next was voice capabilities (its quite possible these were never going to be available but given the cellular functionality of the device one wonders), then went the hope for at least a 1024x600 resolution screen and lastly the most recent revelation is that we can expect only 2hours of Vista battery life [New specs link – thanks to Kaz covering first hand GITEX2007].
Now the above paragraph might make it seem that the HTC shift has been butchered from its original splendour, so lets take a look at these change and its general specs. This isnt a review of the device, I haven’t been blessed to try the device, its just my interpretations of where the Shift is at now as it prepares to ship, combined with my UMPC experience but mainly as a long time Windows Mobile user and HTC enthusiast.
Processor: so we’ve gone from 1.2Ghz Via Chip down to the Intel A110 Stealy 800Mhz. It’s not all bad news, it’s the same processor used by popular UMPCs such as the Samsung Q1 Ultra, and is increasingly be used by other UMPCs such as the Kojinsha and Fujitsu. Most users have reported things run smoothly on these platforms, including Vista so unless you’re planning on using your UMPC as a video encoder one might suspect its going to do the usual run of the mill UMPC stuff just fine with 800Mhz. Despite a slow boot up time (possibly an anomaly, possibly could be corrected with tweaks) the multi-tasking from the Ortega video appeared quite smooth and responsive.
Windows Mobile (WM): When it was originally reported that WM would ship on the device I was confused as to what could possibly be the advantages of such an approach. Samsung had already proven you could build a dialler and phone functionality into the OS so why waste time putting WM on there.
After seeing the video review it made perfect sense. Use WM to do the things you don’t need vista for or that WM can do due to its longer battery life. This seemed to make sense. Why boot up Vista with its limited lifespan when I could get plenty more WiFi, Media playing, Powerpointing, Emailing done right there in Windows Mobile. Leaving Vista for the higher end tasks such as work, proper editing, more in-depth outlook management, data management, and maybe even a game or two?
Unfortunately the latest news from GITEX 2007, and Kaz’s adventures there, seems to point to WM being nothing more than ‘an advanced BIOS with a modem (HSDPA) for push-email support’. I think this is a big mistake as crippling WM in such a way limits its potential to being just a weak sideshow feature to Vista. Whilst being able to access the weather information and get my emails from HSDPA is nice, I believe my vision of WM above would make more sense.
However, if its one thing WM communities have shown though is never say die when it comes to changing our devices to suit. Short of HTC limiting the WM partition or WM RAM, a sense of optimism for a cooked full version of WM might not be out of the question.
Voice Capabilities: HTC seem to have always taken the view that voice capabilities for this device do not exist. It seems to be a foregone conclusion, and whilst any feature is welcome, I question if anyone would truly replace their phone with this device had it the voice capabilities. Despite this its range of connectivity options and HSDPA is a leg above most UMPCs on the market.
The Screen: After Hugo’s review there were mixed interpretations of what native resolutions the device supported. This has been cleared up quite succinctly. The device will ship with 800x480. When questioned about using a lower resolution spec’d screen Middle East Operations Manager for HTC Kevin Chen had this to say:
‘The answer is simple. The screen is only 7" and since power consumption has to be low, HTC decided on the low resolution screen.’ [Source – Kaz’s Interview]
That answer actually makes the device sound sub-par, and whilst higher resolutions are always a nice treat there is something to be said along the lines of screen size. Releasing a device this late in 2007 with such a screen when the standard has clearly moved to 1024 is slightly disappointing but on the whole doesn’t diminish the device too much. As the CEO said it’s a 7” screen, 800x480 isn’t going to look shocking on that size device. People not use to an UMPC with a higher resolution are unlikely to be greatly phased, and (fingers crossed) the interoperated mode which upscales the screen to 1024x600 looked good on Hugos review. There is the distinct possibility that HTC may have got this right where other UMPC manufactures have persistently failed users.
HDD: The device now ships with a 40G drive and a 60G option, quite reasonable for the UMPC, but it has increasingly come under fire for not having SSD or at least the option. Whilst I agree the option would be nice, this is HTCs first foray into this market, especially in such a hybrid manner. I think it is understandable they haven’t opted for the SSD option due to simply not knowing how the device will go and what its profit margin will be in the end. SSD also runs against the prime criteria of this device, which from HTC seems to have been an extremely competitive price point. Whilst the exact price has not been confirmed, the places taking pre-orders are placing their bets on $1400-1600. SSD on average means an instant increase in price of $400-500 which would erode away any price edge HTC have over the competition with this device.
Battery Life: Despite being able to see alternatives or the upside of most of the specs and changes with the Shift I really can’t say I or anyone is impressed with 2 hours. Unless that is 2 hours with everything on and everything running non stop that one is left wonder where our 3hr standard went? Hugo reported 3Hrs in his review, and 3hrs is the least the community has come to expect from an UMPC. I’m not sure how HTC can reconcile this issue unless its 2 hours of maximum usability (ie everything on, everything being used for those whole 120mins). I would suspect it highly likely an XP version could be put on the device by the user (as it will not ship with XP) but whether this would increase the 2 Hrs significantly is unknown.
HTCs website for the shift says: “Why should I compromise?” and that’s an excellent question HTC, why should we compromise our UMPC experience with 2hours of battery life? I suspect you cannot win an UMPC argument armed with 2hours of battery life, and with that in mind I would ask them to answer that question for themselves. If the market has to answer it for HTC on this issue I wouldn’t be expecting a favourable outcome.[/b]
On the whole I think the majority of the Shifts specs are in line with current trends and what we might expect given the shifts criteria and this being HTCs first foray into such a market. But like most users the limited WM6 functionality diminishes my productivity hopes for the device, but I personally hold great hopes for the community to correct this. The battery issue is going to be a wait and see. One would highly suspect after 3 days with the device Hugo got a good idea of the battery life and if its turns out its 2hrs of maximum, full use than perhaps there’s hope, but just two hours in general falls too far short of the UMPC standard. In which case the Shifts splash is likely to be a painful bellyflop.
If this issue was however corrected or turns out to be the maximum usage or just a simple mistake than I see the shift being able to fulfil its role as an UMPC successfully. The device has unanimously been accredited the status of a sleek sexy, solid, well built device. The form factor, the potential of two operating systems and cpus make this a lethal device to the competition. The cellular options even without voice connect the device all the more.
HTC are playing a risky game delivering a device with these specs this late into 2007 where similar spec’d device have been out for some months now. As long as HTC can do something with the Battery life I feel confident the shift will still make a positive splash. Will it revolutionise the industry as first expected? Probably not. But it’s likely to still shake things up, in form factor, its connectivity options combined with the price point. The dual operating systems could also prove to be a big hit with the industry if they can function in a productive manner beyond the “limited version” were hearing about.
I had not been keeping up to date with the shift. If it is correct that there is no voice phone functionality then this device no longer has any potential for me. I was hoping to keep it around (big pocket, bag etc) and just use my bt headset to answer the calls. There is no way i will be carrying two devices on a regular basis, so if the shift can't call - I can't have it I still have hope because HTC have not removed the GSM from the description. Most people would take that to mean phone functionality.
All the other details are of less importance for how I intended to use it.
It seems the Shift is more of an UMPC than any hybrid in its current form. The cellular connections are all still there and the device can even recieve SMS based on the pics weve seen from GITEX however, voice capacities appear to have been removed/restricted.
Given the crippled version of WM included it seems HTC envision this as more of a UMPC than anything to do with a PocketPC which might entail phone functions.
That device was flawed from the beginning, 1) no call support on the windows mobile, 2) UMPC.
"After seeing the video review it made perfect sense. Use WM to do the things you don’t need vista for or that WM can do due to its longer battery life. This seemed to make sense. "
Brain dead, there's no sync between that windows mobile and vista(unless you use exchange which requires an internet connection*), and you'll have to carry a phone with you, so, why use the Shift to do what you can do on your really portable windows mobile phone?
*although broadly available it is a potential show stopper.
Get a 12" convertible tablet and a WM phone [period]
that's exactly what I have right now, but I just hate carrying two devices and even more I hate the time it takes to boot then connect through the phone. I just want to push on and use.
OdeeanRDeathshead said:
that's exactly what I have right now, but I just hate carrying two devices and even more I hate the time it takes to boot then connect through the phone. I just want to push on and use.
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Well, If you see Hugo's video you know you'll take even more time to be up and ready with the Shift, even when resuming from hibernation like showed on the video, that thing isn't exactly an instant-on experience.
With a vista TPC you can resume from hibernation and connect through your WM device(in case you don't use a usb modem) much faster.
I also have that configuration I mentioned, tho it isn't a 12"(14"er), usb HSDPA modem - frees the WM device to do other things like moving away from the TPC w'out cutting its connection to the interwebs, and it also saves the battery of the WM device - and Trinity.
"I just hate carrying two devices"
It is really just the difference between the Shift's 7" and your 12" tablet since the WM device's weight and size is really irrelevant IMO.
The reason I say it makes sense to utilise the WM portion is because we don't all carry around 7" devices loaded with WM. Now the Advantage was fun to browse the web on and do everything else I listed, but the advantage is limited to being a WM device. The Shift has Vista to pick up where WM limitations kick in, or vice versa WM to kick in where UMPC battery life limits Vista.
I cannot help but feel people are expecting this device to be a notebook or tablet pc when its clearly an UMPC.
Apoc you list being an UMPC as its second flaw, its not a flaw its simply a fact of what the device is. Obviously if you want a bigger screen and a bigger device you'll carry around a tablet. However, there are those of us who want a small alternative to the tablet and this is it.
"Apoc you list being an UMPC as its second flaw, its not a flaw its simply a fact of what the device is."
Yeah, you're right.
resume/hibernate is not what I want. All my stuff is on truecrypt volumes and resuming breaks it. I would need to dismount each volume then mount it again after resume. I wanted a device that is always on but not necessarily doing anything. The way ppc wakes up when you push the on button or when a call comes in.
Anyway, the dream is over. I think the next best option is to find a small 3g card that will fit in my tablet with not much overhang. Telstra sell one but it is not on the correct band for my three account. Three's dongle looks like a mouse hanging out on its wire - not good.
You are right about the weight and size. What matters is the time. I use the devices at random times for short periods (20 minutes or less), If I have to spend 5 minutes getting ready then I could not be bothered to begin.
Another solution would be if the wm device could act as a modem even when off, the modem is not part of the windows hardware any way so it should be able to work. Unfortunately it does not. When I push the off button on the ppc my connection will last for about 30 seconds then disappears.
Related
Hello!
Maybe someone have some arguments or idea which option is better.
One option is PDA with Phone module like HTC products. I don't mean Smartphones
Other one is to have separate Mobile Phone with Bluetooth and PDA where each device have related features.
There are advantages and disadvantages for each of options.
For example if you have "all in 1" device. It (at least my) sometimes hangs and software phone doesn't start but it dosen't mean that radio part doesn't work. At end you can totally loose some incoming call or SMS but caller/sender will think that you have received it. I can't say that I have lost many calls but it happens. Other disadvantage is that usually for "all in 1" devices features is low to average.
Other option is with 2 devices. There is some disadvantages too. First of all you have to carry two devices, you have to take care for both devices, follow battery charge. You have to find where to put both of them in some pocket or on belt. Other thing is that Bluetooth have to be switched on in both devices for all the time or much longer time. Probably it is not good idea.
I'll be happy to read some comments
Well as one who has both regular PDA and Phone PDA (see my sig) I can say this:
Depending on your use of the PDA part you may not loose any calls, but you have to be careful what you run on it. I do agree though that the phone part is less stable then on regular cell phone.
As for "low to average features" here I have to disagree. My Jamin is not and never was "top of the line" device yet it has WIFI G, BT 2.0 and 2MP camera. Granted the processor is a bit slow but it does the job without guzzling down the battery. Plus the device is very compact overall (an important feature for cell phone replacement in my opinion)
If you look at newer devices HTC has finally got the point with HERMES and put in a 400MHz processor. O2 now has some non HTC phones with 520 MHz processor and new generation of ARM base CPU that go as high as 1.2 GHz is just around the corner.
All in all if you need the functionality of the PDA for your business affairs or online stuff (not just navigation, music and games) I think a combine device beats having a regular phone plus PDA almost in every respect.
As for smartphones (actual smartphones with win mobile but no touch screen) they are the compromise. They sacrifice some of the power of the PDA to give you a fully stable phone module just like a regular cellphone.
But in the end to each his own so the choice of Phone PDA / smartphone / PDA + regular phone is an individual thing.
I've been using the setup with one pda and one cell for a couple of years until I changed it when buying the wizard a couple of months ago. And today I wouldn't want to go back to carrying two devices. The pdaphones have come a long way and I don't feel that they're a compromise any longer. Sure, the wizard doesn't have the 3d acceleration etc like some of the pdaonly devices yet for me it's quite enough.
And they way companies through out phones today(half-done) they just as easily hang and you miss calls and text's.
I'm sticking with the pdaphone
OK Thanks guys
I assume from replies that it is better if in one device is all features and of course it sounds logical.
About features. I was looking around to find some PDA phone with not much features together. Or better say didn't find with features I have in "must" list. And I think it is nothing mega.
Ah yes currently I have wizard which seems starts to show up some I suppose aging "features".
I'm rather business user, main applications is e-mail, calendar and office applications. Of course not only business apps.
Main feature I really need in new device is VGA screen because with my current qVGA screen is tricky to look at spreadsheet or some word document.
Other is faster CPU than Wizard has, sometimes that slowness it is really annoying.
And at least a bit larger user available internal flash/ram.
If in it would be GPS module it would be ideal, but ir isn't required.
G - WiFi.
QWERTY - not required but good to have.
Currently in market there is no much devices with such features. All devices I like is with note "early 2007". I'm not sure my current device will last so long. And of course no info about prices
Actually, aside from GPS, HTC Universal answares to just about everything on that list. It's not a new device, but it is 3G and VGA plus it has the biggest screen of all phones to date 3.5'
Some upcoming VGA models will have a 2.8' screen which means true VGA (what you get when you cancel out pixel doubling with something like OzVGA) will be practically useless as you will need a microscope to read the text.
Check out the upcoming O2 Flame, I'm definitly saving myself for that one
OK my employer made decision without my assistance
After in some urgent situation I was unreachable due to my wizard hang I just got phone. As employer pays for my bills (lucky me) I have no choice.
Now I'm happy or "happy" Nokia 6230i owner.
Let's see after some time
Thanks for answers!
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/what.s-w...ow-wm7-and-wm8-are-going-to-fix-it-333536.php
Very interesting article
Wow, that was a great article! The author hit his points right on the head. Sounds like WM8 will be the one to go for, however who knows how long that will take to come out.
Also, in the meantime HTC has to get their heads out of their asses and release some quality and speedy hardware! What the hell happened to the OMNi, the Universal successor?! There's still not a decent phone that can replace it yet, and the Uni is over 2 years old! On the other hand, the i-Mate Ultimate 9502 looks like a decent piece of hardware (spec-wise) but its ugly as sin and the build quality will most likely be lower than HTC...I also hear that i-Mate is in financial trouble now too...
Oh well, I have finally completed the process of flashing a new WM5 ROM that I'm happy with, and my Uni is working great for now. I just hope that the future looks good for WM8 and HTC...I'll be sitting in my waiting chair for now, to see how this all develops over time.
well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile#Photon_.282009.29
wm7 will be out next year so it could take awhile before wm8 come around
The article is so sad. I have been using WM for years and it does everything I want and more. Every point the guy makes is easily fixable with any task manager, there are heaps or free ones.
A non power user dosen't care if the apps close or not.
Iphone is all about the hype, anything that it does WM has been doing for 10 years.
Thats how I feel too. I have very little problems but a new OS is always exciting. I know I was losing my mind the first time I found Faria's Crossbow for the wizard. That was my first taste of windows mobile 6 and it was great.
I almost wanna check out the ETEN x800. I havent seen any in the states. But im gonna keep my eye out. I love my Herm200 but hey thats got the memory of a 8925 and I think its like 500.
scar45 said:
There's still not a decent phone that can replace it yet, and the Uni is over 2 years old!
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I think I'll go back to the separated-device route. The iPAQ 214 for the workhorse, quality PDA and the Nokia N95 for the phone + GPS + camera + 3D hardware-accelerated gaming machine + HSDPA modem + push mail client.
scar45 said:
On the other hand, the i-Mate Ultimate 9502 looks like a decent piece of hardware (spec-wise)
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Too bad it's only PXA270-based... already outdated. A no-go for me. Why would I buy a non-PXA310-based device in 2008, when the iPAQ 214 already has the new CPU?
@Menneisyys
I think you may have made a tiny error, the iMate 9502 is the ugly one with a Qualcomm MSM7200 processor.
njakobs said:
The article is so sad. I have been using WM for years and it does everything I want and more. Every point the guy makes is easily fixable with any task manager, there are heaps or free ones.
A non power user dosen't care if the apps close or not.
Iphone is all about the hype, anything that it does WM has been doing for 10 years.
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Not to get into a WM vs iPhone debate, but I disagree. I have about every iteration of WM device and still choose the iPhone on a daily basis. I am not really a mac user or care about any of the hype, for me it is simply a great device and os. Yes, WM can do most of the things the iPhone can, but not with anywhere near the same ease of use (i.e. can anyone figure it out), speed (no task manager needed with a 600+Mhz processor) screen clarity (see it in sunlight!), touch screen responsiveness (capacitance vs resistance) accelerometer for auto landscape of the browser, pictures and iPod, and the amazing build quality. I won't even go into the applications and how amazingly intuative they are. To make my Touch XL or Tinity work even close to my iPhone it takes over ten added applications that don't always work together. If you think the iPhone is only hype, you likely have not spent any time with one - it's addicting. My point is simply to state that, as a WM user the iPhone has raised the bar both on the hardware and software side and I hope it is not years before Microsoft and the manufacturers catch up.
2manyphones said:
Not to get into a WM vs iPhone debate, but I disagree. I have about every iteration of WM device and still choose the iPhone on a daily basis. I am not really a mac user or care about any of the hype, for me it is simply a great device and os. Yes, WM can do most of the things the iPhone can, but not with anywhere near the same ease of use (i.e. can anyone figure it out), speed (no task manager needed with a 600+Mhz processor) screen clarity (see it in sunlight!), touch screen responsiveness (capacitance vs resistance) accelerometer for auto landscape of the browser, pictures and iPod, and the amazing build quality. I won't even go into the applications and how amazingly intuative they are. To make my Touch XL or Tinity work even close to my iPhone it takes over ten added applications that don't always work together. If you think the iPhone is only hype, you likely have not spent any time with one - it's addicting. My point is simply to state that, as a WM user the iPhone has raised the bar both on the hardware and software side and I hope it is not years before Microsoft and the manufacturers catch up.
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I guess you are right in a lot of aspects. However, Apple's flaw (and quite possibly the iPhone's downfall) is the lack of capability for the power users. Both my mom and my brother have iPhones so I have had plenty of chances to mess around with them. Not only did I not find it addictive, but after using it for 10 minutes, I just put it down and started messing around with my Blue Angel (now 3 years old and running WM6). I personally consider myself a medium (on the salsa scale ) power user of WM, but after watching a couple of YouTube videos and scrolling through album covers with my fingers while tilting the device back and forward, I started thinking: "well, now what?"
There are numerous advantages of iPhones over WM devices and vice-versa, but the article is mainly comparing the WM interface with the iphone's interface, and that is what this is all about. M$ interfaces have been progressively getting worse over the years (or at least not getting any better), while Apple completely hit a homerun with their interface. This sole fact gave birth to the future of WM. If you do not believe me, check out the "development and hacking" section of this forum and tell me how many new UIs you can see floating around. I personally have 4 in my device (FreeStyle, PointUI, iTask (came out yesterday), and Slither's Cube.
Hopefully, they will be able to do something based on what is out there (i.e. HTC X-Button (true closing any app), PointUI, PocketCM, TCPMP, etc, etc...). But make no mistake, there is a lot to be done to our devices, and hopefully M$ truly knows about it and are planning to do something about it...
Long Live XDA-Devs!!!!
another thing with iphone which may work agenst it in eu and asia is lack of t9 not very fast to write sms's in 10sec
heck here kids write sms's on their phones even in school under the table so the teacher dont take their phones even if the iphone keyboard is easier to use the defualt ms tiny keyboard phone pad and normal phones got a better chance of being used "blindfolded"
I do agree, the WM UI sucks by default and the usability leaves a lot to be desired. The good thing is that almost anything is possible. Luckily HTC and the devs of this site have fixed a huge number of WM flaws. My Touch was pretty usable out of the box. The devs here improved it even more by adding PocketCM for example. I just flashed the Shadow Wm 6.1 rom yesterday and it's damn fast, like having a new phone.
I would like a better browser and a more finger friendly UI. PointUI looks very promising but still has some issues. We'll get there, it just takes a while.
I do think WM has made big improvements over the years though. I remember my first WM phone (Orange SPV, Smartphone 2002), it was the worst phone I ever had although it did have some nice things at the time. I swore I would never ever buy a WM phone again. This summer I fell in love with the Touch and keep tinkering with it.
Rudegar said:
another thing with iphone which may work agenst it in eu and asia is lack of t9 not very fast to write sms's in 10sec.....
"
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Very good point Rudegar, another reason the iPhone will never fly in Asia is the lack of stylus for writing Chinese characters. MANY people who buy a touchscreen devicedo so exclusively so they can handwrite characters. The iPhone is going to have to change a lot for that to happen. Really, people shouldn;t think about the iPhone so much. It's going to probably never even make it to the asian market, which frankly is such a large market that US iPhone sales don't even make a difference. The real powerhouses are going to continue to be the people who dominate the asian handset markets.
I been using the iphone today.....what a smooth operator...everything just flows...the page animations the opening of applications...the look and feel, the way touch works. The typing (mind you Cooteks Touch and icontact is on par with it )very impressive...it even takes batter pictures than the cruise and its only got a 2meg camera...using my cruise everything is laggy....I cant wait for the drivers or update. If people like larna and others can do wonders to the speed of applications then what the hell are original developers and manufacturers doing. I say thank you for this forum...If HTC/Microsoft had been thorough as Apple was with the iphone the cruise/WM would be a different beast altogether.
I think Microsoft must be going through what Mercedes and BMW went through when the first Lexus model came out and caught them sleeping.
Nice phone the iphone but very limited when compared to ours....but things could change.
I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
I think a capacitive Display would help much. I'm often not sure if pressing a soft button worked. That makes working on it feeling laggy (beside slow program starts).
The WM developers have ignored any work on the UI for years. Now they got payback, the WM UI looks like an ugly Windows 95 UI and is totally outdated.
You can see that a smooth UI is possible by looking at pointui.
But do not forget the WM advantages.
All the availabe software, for example WMwifirouter.
That on iphone? I think it will never be...
Agreed....I can only fault Microsoft in Slow Deveopement....whereas the Manufacturers trying to make everyhing generic compatible instead of optimizing....now if they even aimed for the latter, no only would our devices be useably versatile, they would be decently fast and efficient.
We can only hope that WM7 will better developed for touch and hopefully not a memory hogger ...aka Vista.
On June 2008 the rumor say we will have a 3G Iphone + integrated GPS + open SDK. All for not more than $500 USD.
Nobody will touch the touch cruise with a stick at that point (unless the price will be reduced to $250, or something close). So I believe we're going to see new phones from HTC pretty soon.
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
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With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).
Noam23 said:
With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).
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I hate to say it but I think he's right.
I can and only will speak for myself, even though that may be the case for everyone else as well; but I use a WM based device because of the software. While the iPhone is faster, better looking, smoother flowing...as of right now it is locked down and requires hacks just to browse the file system!!
TheOnly1 said:
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
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If you are reffering to the current iPhone, i would have to say you are DEAD on. However, if the new one lives up to what people are saying about it (an SDK, gps, 3g),
Then apple would have successfully created something that achieves both outcomes: A cool device with a fast, smooth flowing UI WITH functionality and productivity.
remoh said:
I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
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Actually, it is up to the OEMs, not microsoft, to optimize windows mobile for each of their devices. This is where HTC fails time after time in my mind.
Microsoft gives them every opportunity to implement things accelerated graphics, among other things. HTC does not do it!!
And then has the audacity to blame the customers for buying devices based on their chipsets instead of what is actually implemented (or NOT implemented -- LOL).
Since my last HTC purchase of the Touch Cruise, which cost me almost $900 I am extremely upset and dissapointed, not to mention disillusioned. The kaiser and the TC could have been great, but HTC did not want them to be -- they are slow, clunky, unresponsive at times, and i don't see why HTC even put a camera on them 'cause the pictures and video are better left not being captured at all.
If the new iphone lives up to it's promises, i see no reason to ever purchase, nor use another htc product ever again. That is the thing though...Apple is one of those companies I just do not trust and/or like....but just having the possibility of a device like the new iphone will keep my interest peaked!
If everything goes as planned, I believe that mobile developers will definately take advantage of the SDK.
While it will take many months for all the developers out there to create good applications, it will happen.
I'll actually go as far as saying that iPhone software will in fact exceed that of WM software in the future -- Provided that apple releases a decent sdk and does not place absurd restrictions on developers.
Think about it...how long have WM devices been out for...and what is their popularity?
Compare that to how long the iPhone has been out for, and it's popularity...
While currently they are for two completely different concepts;
one for user friendly every day usage, and one a "business" device...
apple seems to be combining both concepts into something that I would consider a "dream" device that I have been waiting for from HTC to put out for years now.
I thought that the TC would in fact be something closely resembling my "dream" device -- And after I actually used it and saw all of the problems with it first hand, I quickly recognized I was completly wrong.
Let's see if Apple can successfully accomplish what HTC has consistently set out to -- and subsequently failed to do so many times.
If they can pull this off, I will definately consider myself a proud iphone owner / user.
i have to admit the only reason i did not buy an iphone its because i did not want to switch to at&t and evryone where i work has one. i just wanted something different so i bought the touch cruise. i am regreting it even as i type. 700plus usd down the drain. when the new iphone is out this summer i am definitely getting one and switching to at&t
i wish i could get my hands on one of the htc developers. i would beat the life out of him. for real. i am mad and pissed. even the clone iphone, the hiphone which i saw with my own two eyes and held in my hands is better than touch cruise. its only 200usd
There are a lot of Touch user using WM device not having too many complaint. I like UI and build of iPhone, but I never forget the experience what smart phone of Nokia and Sony Ericsson running in Symbian. People will just imagine what Apple will enhance the iPhone and offer what we have used in WM device. Just like people asking why manufacturer not offering VGA device. Why don't have a look of the delay of Sony Ericsson X1? Keep an eye on what Apple implement the SDK into their iPhone and software developer introduce program, and to compare what we have with WM device. Looking forward to have a device running in X OS with VGA display with weeks of power with plenty choice of softwares .... and lastly without lag. Just like years ago we are looking for a VGA WM device. Manufacturer like HTC will make such device if it can.
Are you guys serious about the Touch Cruise camera being poor? It has one of the best cameras I've ever seen on a mobile, save for the lack of flash.
-3 Megapixels
-Autofocus
-Excellent macro mode (try taking a picture of anything close up (~3inches) with this vs. a normal camera under normal lighting...TC holds its own, or better yet take a picture of something close up and compare those results to those of an IPhone)
-Auto switch to night mode in poor lighting (remember camcorders with night mode also exhibit lag in night mode, but normal cameras don't lag as they don't use a night mode since they have a flash!)
I must agree with Sonus on the camera. I actually printed out some pictures I took with my TC and they were pretty much OK on paper.
i do believe the tc is a very good device with advantages and disadvantages same as the iphone.
the thing that annoys me most (also while writing this text) the input lags in the touch keyboard or other apps, e.g. switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.
the good things are:
100% customization
tons of apps - navigation, wlm etc
lastly, i have see the iphone hanging - it could not connect immediately to wifi
I'm positive Apple is not going to put HTC out of business on June 2008, when the 3G iphone is supposedly coming out.
HTC will definitely release formidable competition on fall 2008, probably the dream machines we always wanted to have. My only complaint is that the Touch Cruise / Kaiser have the hardware to be much of that "dream machine", but aren't so because HTC doesn't think it is necessary since these products are competitive enough as it is, in today's market.
I agree with the only1.
Just think of it in business terms, the iphone and touch cruise are aimed at different markets. HTC could probably produce a iphone type device but why should it. HTC devices are more business orientated and sold as such, they are not (imho) trying to compete with consumer based ideas and what looks sexy when playing music or videos. They are aimed at different markets.
If people want a device to look good show off pictures and videos and play music they buy a iphone, for gods sake its a ipod touch that makes calls, so no comparison.
If people want to do all of the above and have a device that can be used as a great business tool buy a touch cruise.
Okay there are some faults but they will probably be fixed on the next device but that too will have its shortcomings and we will give out **** about it and compare it to the newest goddam wonderful iphone, jphone, kphone or whatever with hdtv or can make coffee but thats life. I know we paid big money for what we have but for jaysus sake its "not ****en dark". i.e. you could see what your were buying.
Just my opinion.
A bit strong maybe but thats life.
I dont know what you guys have done to your devices to make the camera so good, but unless i am taking pictures outside when it is sunny out, it will NOT come out clearly at all -- it is very distorted and grainy, not to mention it slows down to a crawl! I have a sony cybershot 2.1 MP camera from 2002 that takes better pictures than a TC cam -- and it cost about 150$ 6 years ago. When its dark or indoors, the LCD on the cybershot doesn't slow down to 1-5 FPS.
Now people say that the TC is a business device and that's true.
But, I for one am sick of trading off functionality for performance on the business devices produced from HTC.
Why can't it be both at the same time?
Unfortuneately, I did go in the dark on this one. Before I bought the TC I didn't research the video driver problems.
I only looked at the specs, researched the chipset and thought I was getting something that would (at least) out perform my PPC-6700 that I purchased over 3 years ago. I was wrong. I don't think HTC will go out of business...not at all, but i DO think that alot of people are in a similar boat that I am in...betrayed by HTC and will continue to hold a grudge against them, and subsequently switch to someone who can provide something better in the future...hopefully, that can be Apple...but I definately have some doubts to say the least, considering what the current iPhone came out as -- a Media player with a phone on it.
PseudoReal said:
switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.i
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Click to collapse
OMG, i have the SAME problem...it is the WORST!!
you have to tap the stupid triangle like 50 times just to get it to switch.
It's an atrocity. Devices from 3 years ago do not even have this problem.
Business device or not, this is just plain unacceptable.
Unless there is a fix for this problem, or I am doing something wrong and do not know about it?
How many ppl have similar experience?
I have that same problem. Takes multiple clicks and major lag to get the input keyboard to show up. The reason I have to chance keyboards is I often use Opera 9.5 and for some reason none of the Touch keypads work with it, so I have to switch them (I think that's another problem could be related to Opera still being beta). Also every once in awhile I can't get to the PocketCM keyboard and instead get the lame Windows default one. But that also is another problem.
Back to the lag, every once in awhile I will get lag here or there, e.g. will click on the task manager on the top right and not get anything, keep clicking around with no response. Then all of a sudden all the clicks take effect and I will see the task manager menu open and close in succession real quick.
All in all it's a good device, great functionality, just a few quirks here or there. Maybe it's time to hard-reset or flash a new ROM that might solve some of these things, who knows.
Oh forgot, as for the camera lag with the low FPS in low light conditions, check out this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=365345
HTH
thanks for that... the "trick" described in the first post does increase the response by 10 fps or so, but the thing is, the picture quality also goes down...its a lose/lose situation i guess lol...I also noticed that there is a new .dll fix on the HTC E-club, but only for the kaiser. I tried to login but it says theyre doing maintainance right now, so I can't check if there's anything released for the TC...even so I doubt there is
but my issue is, and always has been..why should i need to do all of these tricks and patches for a device that costs as much as the TC does? I shouldn't. No one should.
also another thing that came to my mind...people and HTC say this is a "business device"...so i was thinking, wouldn't business users want their devices to be MORE responsive than a media player / cool trendy "sexy" device?
I mean when you need to wait 5 seconds and tap the screen multiple times to play a music file, it's not really that big of a deal...it's an annoyance yes but it doesn't result in you losing work time..or a loss of productivity
but when you need to tap the X button 5 times to close out of a document and switch to your email...or taking notes and browsing web pages for work related stuff...or trying to switch between SIP's...and having to wait because the device lags worse than windows 95...it becomes a loss of productivity...
even if it's only seconds, those seconds add up, and the annoyances stock pile into one big ball of rage for me at least, heh.
I do admit that my own foolishness and quickness to buy a new device is partly to blame here. I should have looked into it more. But I also think that HTC holds a good part of the blame as well.
hopefully the geniuses here can come up with some good fast custom roms that will deal with these issues...i won't hold my breath waiting for this patch to come out from HTC at the end of the month. I'm doubtful that it will do anything at all.
Hey guys,
Although I am not among you, I think it would be extremely helpful/eye-opening to conduct a poll of all current HTC Touch Pro owners who have had their device for enough time to make an initial assessment of the device's quality. That means probably at least a week--but use your own discretion. Just a few suggested guidelines:
Don't let the initial euphoria blur your judgment
Think for a few moments before submitting a vote
Compare, if possible, the quality of the device to, say, that of an iPhone, if you've ever owned one or used it extensively, to provide a point of reference.
I look forward to hearing everyone's input!
-Steve
I think it would be helpful if you clarified what you mean by "device quality". Hardware, software, reception, screen, input, battery, performance, etc. Maybe you're asking for "all of the above", but at least it would help people approach it catagorically -- that way people can speak to specific things that have made an impression on them.
It's the best i've used, and the best there is on the market at this moment. I've shut off TF3D though and replaced it with Mobile Shell. Now using it with great pleasure.
With the exception of the "sleeve" and somewhat slow GPS, I am very pleased with my TP.
Great device, and i bet there is more to come with some updates in the near future. That's the reason I voted Above Avarage.
As far as functionality goes, it has all I want: telephone, mail, internet and navigation. Next to that there is a lot of software out there.
A few quircks here and there ofcourse. Like almost instant fixes with Google Maps...and 15 to 20 minutes GPS fixing time with Tom Tom 7.
Battery life could be better as well
I would have liked to add some today plugins into TF3D, or be able to add new tabs
fhsieh said:
I think it would be helpful if you clarified what you mean by "device quality". Hardware, software, reception, screen, input, battery, performance, etc. Maybe you're asking for "all of the above", but at least it would help people approach it catagorically -- that way people can speak to specific things that have made an impression on them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah; I was thinking about doing a categorical breakdown, but in the end, that would have taken a lot of polls.
I hope this is sufficient.
two big problems:
1. battery consumption
2. signal reception
othersteve said:
Yeah; I was thinking about doing a categorical breakdown, but in the end, that would have taken a lot of polls.
I hope this is sufficient.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, maybe not with the poll, but at least for any comments. I mean everyone has different needs and expectations for the device so it'll be hard to judge the poll accurately without seeing some objective testimony.
But what am I babbling about, here's some of my thoughts:
- Not the most solid handheled device I've had (my old iPaq hx4700 was a tank), but it comes very close and is definitely not a cheap build. Better than the Blackjack and some Blackberries, but I haven't spent very much time with those and I certainly don't know how well the TPro's build will last over time.
- WM6.1 isn't perfect, but then XDA is very active. Plus there are apps for just about anything you need. I spent some time with a Nokia N800, and while it's nice that Maemo is (almost) completely open-source -- which makes for an equally active community -- you're plain out of luck if no one is developing something you need. Namely, the software probably exists on standard Linux distros, but very little of it has been ported to Maemo. This is the same reason I decided not to jump on the Android bandwagon right away.
- Finally, I now have one device that does everything I needed my old devices to do. US phone (Nokia 6300), Japan phone (SE W43S), electronic dictionary (hx4700), internet device (hx4700/N800), mp3 player.
- Same observations as others: GPS is laggy, though not really an issue since I only use it as a pedestrian; battery life isn't impressive. I will probably buy a USB battery pack later.
So far v.happy, just need to solve the backlight issue when in call, and the Sim contacts list.
I've had my TP for almost 3 weeks now - it was one of the first on the market. I have used HTC qwerty based devices for several years now and this is by far the best device. I dearly loved my Tytn II but the hardware in this device is much better.
I own a 3G iPhone also and while this device is definitely a joy to use it is far from ever replacing my TP as my preference business device.
I decided to continue to run the 3D flow against other utilities but it's far from perfect - however developed with the correct user feedback it will be a great tool.
While 6.1 runs quite smoothly on the device the interface obviously lets the device down. I also have had a few lockups but no more than other devices.
The battery is pretty shocking to be honest. I use a scheduler to shut down BT and even the radio stack at night to preserve battery but to be honest if I were going away for anymore that 24 hours I would have to take a charger.
GPS has has been quick to locate a signal but I've encountered issues with TT6 \ and or Googlemaps. I currently run IGO8 and it runs very well.
Finally this device has a half-decent web browser on it - Opera mobile is great. IE mobile is a shambles.
Micro SD is essential - currently running an 8GB card with all my music, apps and vids. No idea why they left it off the Diamond - crazy in my opinion.
If anyone has any quick questions I'd be happy to answer them.
I was hoping by going with a non-American device (which has three times the processor of its American counterparts), I would have a more stable device. Overall, best phone I've ever had. A little disappointed that I need to soft reset every couple of days.
Don't regret it...leaps and bounds over my previous device.
Wow guys, thanks a ton for the feedback so far. This is extremely informative stuff to all of us prospective buyers. Personally, I'll be getting the phone through our Sprint corporate account, but as with everything that's a significant investment I have been trying to read up as much as possible on it beforehand to accurately set my expectations and prepare myself for problems that will need to be solved.
I use SPB Mobile Shell on my Mogul right now, and while I like it, I love the flair of TouchFlo3D... I just hope it is equally useful and quick (so far to that end it seems to be not quite as useful). I think I will try replacing the default contact manager on my Pro with Finger-Friendly Friends provided that will work all right. I also hope that the US release a month or so from now will see additional improvements in terms of software stability and speed (though probably not battery life).
Apart from that, I'm quite excited about everything I have read about the device. And I've always been a sucker for statistics, so having a poll on such an educated and active forum is of remarkable interest.
-Steve
The best device that I ever owned.
Like others I´m having some troubles with the GPS (reception time) and other issues like the screen going of of on a call.
So far I kinda like it.
Nevertheless I'll vote in the pole and give a complete feedback as soon as HTC repairs it (I have a sound problem...)
Hows the sound quality of the internal speaker?
Greetings
LordK
The only problem of the internal speaker is that the volume is a little bit low (compared to my colleagues' blackberrys)
Rated it Above Average!
I am using the TP for 2 weeks now. I've experienced the 'broken glass' screen and the grey-screen once.
The device is pretty quick and TF3D works nice although there are some moment when it does something completely different than what i wanted it to do.
Issues i like to see solved:
- Album cover view in TF3D music tab
- Fix for lag with TomTom
- Battery usage
Things I love:
- Memory
- Speed
- Screen
- Keyboard
I've had mine 3 weeks so far, upgrading from my beloved HTC Universal. It's a great machine but I'm not blind to it's faults, I Like Touch Flo a lot but it's just a thin layer over old ugly windows mobile.
As powerful as it is it just isn't as responsive as an iPhone, way too sluggish, expect the usual windows mobile pauses and spinning wait cursor.
The screen is too small, I liked my big screened Universal but the screen is such high quality it goes some way to making up for being small (it really is crisp).
The keyboard is ok but it's a thumbboard, I won't be knocking out the emails I used to on it. The slide action is distinctly wobbly to me, not bad, but not the decisive slide movement I expected. The onscreen keyboard is surprisingly usable much more so than the bigger IPhone one.
Memory is fantastic, loads of it, I never bother shutting things down which I was always doing on the universal.
Lockups, yup a disappointing number but a definate improvement on the universal.
GPS, not really a problem, it seems fast, but as far as I can see tomtom5 doesn't initialise the built in gps reciever so I start googlemaps, get a fast lock then switch to tomtom I notice tomtom6 has an option for built in GPS.
Lack of headphone socket is a crazy omission, it's driving me crazy and was almost a factor in not buying it, it's only 10 quid for an adaptor but just something else to carry.
The opera browser is pretty good and responsive but the icons it uses are way too chunky considering the screen is so small, talking of chunky, the menus are all pretty huge, I found how to make the start menu smaller but most menus now eg messaging, need arrows at the top and bottom to scroll the duplo vision menus into place. Also needed a hack to get googlemail working and is so small that almost every site needs a zoom to read it whereas I found I could read a lot of sites on the iPhone without zooming.
I also hate the mini sd card being hidden inside the case, it makes changing cards a pain, I'd also rather have an sd card, for the sake of a little bit bigger unit.
I never considered the IPhone because it has no physical keyboard and it was unable to run GotoMyPC but the difference between the IPhone and the Touch Pro is responsiveness, given it's a more powerful machine it's a damning indictment of windows mobile that it's so sluggish.
I just hope that there's an Android rom released for the Raphael. I'll be getting the ATT Touch Pro (or is it still considered the 'Fuze'?) when it's available as I've been drooling over the TP for a long time now. I'll deal with WM6.1 as long as I have to, but I really like Android, and would switch to it in a heartbeat.
veljko.m said:
two big problems:
1. battery consumption
2. signal reception
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Click to collapse
Vote 1 from me
Touch flow is nothing to write home about either.
using people favorites and Active Sync hates the photos you asign to them so that becomes a waste of time.
I'm shopping for my next cell phone and after looking over the selection on letstalk.com I decided on the Fuze. Initially my only hard requirement was a real slider style QWERTY keyboard, not those sorta-qwertys that the blackberries have and not the fully exposed ones that don't tuck away. I want something I can text comfortably on and not be pecking around in menus trying to find special characters. I was very impressed by both the robust keyboard and the PC-like features of the Fuze, particularly the high-res screen, wifi, and its ability to do remote desktop (awesome for someone like me who uses RDP constantly.)
So the Fuze was starting to sound like slam-dunk until I decided to research it further here and found the cpu/driver/qualcomm thread, battery life and other assorted complaints about this phone. They're certainly not deal-breakers given all the good things about the phone, but before I buy it anyway I wanted to ask for suggestions for an alternative. What would you get if you wanted a great slider qwerty and remote desktop, but didn't want to settle for the Fuze?
The Raphael(Fuze) is the best WinMo PPC hardware qwerty slider around. I still bought mine despite knowing the problems. It's possible that HTC/Qualcomm releases better drivers or an SDK in the future if we pester them enough, so there's even hope for future performance improvements. Plus the xda-dev community is very active with cooked ROMs, there at least 3 or 4 excellent ROMs you can choose from, and they are updated frequently.
nodnod...
That was pretty much exactly what I expected to hear. At least now I can buy this awful piece of junk guilt-free.
Update
Have had my Fuze for about a week now, so far not all that impressed. I already need to return it because the lcd has screen color problems (color ghosting, intermittent monochrome r/g/b) so I haven't tried flashing any roms or radios, tho I have gone thru the basic stock-rom, no-bloat noob setup a few times and tried out just about every interesting freeware app i could find.
I asked a friend to try out the browser on his iPhone. It started so fast, and browsed so smoothly. Mine lags at every single little action - scrolling the screen, zooming, clicking a link... painfully slow. However I found that entering text on his iphone was even more painful.
The main feature I liked from the start about the TP is the ability to do real remote desktop - a lifesaver for someone who's got remote servers to manage, AND a life outside of work. I haven't done anything too complicated thru RDP yet, just kinda played with the start menu - which I noticed has weird text issues at this resolution. However I was still very impressed by this functionality and this is where the vga resolution of this phone really shines.
I've been thinking about asking for a different handset when I send this one back, but still not found one that meets my needs and has a hardware keyboard. Seems like we are still a few iterations away from having a truly well-made, useful pocket pc phone so I may just get it replaced by the same model.
Other minor things I didn't like about it: Entire thing is extremely heavy and fragile, weird diamond-cut back causes certain spots to lose their paint immediately, battery life DOES suck despite what some say, phone back has to be removed to switch out microsd cards, no 1/8" audio out and you NEVER have that dongle adapter when you want it.
rcll said:
The Raphael(Fuze) is the best WinMo PPC hardware qwerty slider around. I still bought mine despite knowing the problems. It's possible that HTC/Qualcomm releases better drivers or an SDK in the future if we pester them enough, so there's even hope for future performance improvements. Plus the xda-dev community is very active with cooked ROMs, there at least 3 or 4 excellent ROMs you can choose from, and they are updated frequently.
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This does not sound like the HTC I know.
The only real next step up is the Xperia. However, the X1 has a lot of differences that would be a big turn off for me. X1 seems to be a much better build quality though.
Largest problems being WVGA (always a pain even with the WVGA <-> VGA work around) and the price.
behrouz said:
This does not sound like the HTC I know.
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Yeah, there are few companies that would be willing to deploy a major software update like this once the unit is already selling. The only hope for this model is if the proprietary driver code could be leaked from qualcomm and incorporated into a rom.
I called the LetsTalk.com customer service line and asked if they could cross-ship me a new fuze so I wouldn't be without a phone for several days. They said yes but for some reason the deposit amount is equal to the retail value of the fuze PLUS a bunch more money for reasons which I did not quite understand due to the phone rep's "dialect" of english. So I now have an $850 (!) hold on my credit card (which happens to be my personal checking account) until the phone swap is completed.