Related
Please read through the forum before you post. Your question has probably already been answered.
We now have to wade through countless threads regarding SMS phonebook lookup, where can i get radio 4.16, etc.
I appreciate those who already take a little care.
martinlong1978 said:
Please read through the forum before you post. Your question has probably already been answered.
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This is the key here. If there was an easier way to do this.
My suggestion is start up a FAQ page|post.
With common and upto date news.
Especially the following I believe:
- Latest updates, and where to find or get them (eg ROM)
- SMS problem + patch.
- Un-locking technique (or is this against the rules?)
- hardware problems screen, serial, etc..
You can't stop people posting silly questions, without having the answers easily available.
I spend a lot of time on the madonion site for 3dmark. Yes overclockers and computer destroyers! Newcomers, beginners need to be led. You cannot tell them NO. Never tell somebody no, tell them other things...
Martin
MmF
Hi
Just my 2 pennies worth of comment:
I normally would try a Search for some keywords to get all the posts recently on the topic I am interested in. The search engine is very efficient and it shows you all the posts with that keyword. It can be a little tedious some times to read thru the threads for a topic which has been heavily debated. But the search mechanism is a good point to start for someone interested to get an answer quick as one doesn't have to wait for somebody to answer you especially when the info is already available elsewhere. An FAQ would be a fabulous addition though it would be lots of extra work for the site developer.
This forum is the best support for the xda available in the whole world and we should thank all those who made it possible. As the person with probably the most silly questions it is a great site to get help and I would like to give those guys sweating behind the screen a big thank you !!!
Cheers
Vic
Will do
Sounds fair enough. Thanks for the awesome site!
Was it really necessary to revive a thread that is almost eight years old? Most forums have FAQs and other stickies to help new users find what they need.
Closed
Wasn´t really necessary that you also replied on an old thread?
I have noticed that this forum is beginning to look like HERMES once did. A lot of new people who just got the phone and asks a lot of questions before reading and searching for an answer.
I remember that there was a lot of badmouth in HERMES forum and some of the REAL developers went away due to all those questions asked again and again and then again.
We have all been NEW - and we are not all developers (I am not) but I love this forum and spend lots of time in here reading and becoming clever on my phone.
I am just sorry to see that things are repeated again and again.
The point is. No one has anything against any new people asking questions - BUT PLEASE use the search button first - then READ the proper THREADS, and THEN ask if INFO cannot be found.
REMEMBER - its quite possible that some have had the same problem before.
NOW: Should we have a STICKY thread for NEW guys??? MODS get on track and set some RULES please. (Lets keep it a developers forum where we new guys can become clever)
Martinhdk said:
I have noticed that this forum is beginning to look like HERMES once did. A lot of new people who just got the phone and asks a lot of questions before reading and searching for an answer.
I remember that there was a lot of badmouth in HERMES forum and some of the REAL developers went away due to all those questions asked again and again and then again.
We have all been NEW - and we are not all developers (I am not) but I love this forum and spend lots of time in here reading and becoming clever on my phone.
I am just sorry to see that things are repeated again and again.
The point is. No one has anything against any new people asking questions - BUT PLEASE use the search button first - then READ the proper THREADS, and THEN ask if INFO cannot be found.
REMEMBER - its quite possible that some have had the same problem before.
NOW: Should we have a STICKY thread for NEW guys??? MODS get on track and set some RULES please. (Lets keep it a developers forum where we new guys can become clever)
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Yes SIR Create some rules.I don't want to be a bad guy I am also not so skilled but at list I try to read .I flash for 2 years from this forum (starting with Hermes-TyTn and noe Kaiser-TyTn II) and always I find the answer in some thread on XDA.
Newbe at list think that you can easily brick your devices and forget about warranty if you don't read before.For shure you will find the answear at list 10 times .
Developers keep the good work !!!
Martinhdk said:
I have noticed that this forum is beginning to look like HERMES once did. A lot of new people who just got the phone and asks a lot of questions before reading and searching for an answer.
I remember that there was a lot of badmouth in HERMES forum and some of the REAL developers went away due to all those questions asked again and again and then again.
We have all been NEW - and we are not all developers (I am not) but I love this forum and spend lots of time in here reading and becoming clever on my phone.
I am just sorry to see that things are repeated again and again.
The point is. No one has anything against any new people asking questions - BUT PLEASE use the search button first - then READ the proper THREADS, and THEN ask if INFO cannot be found.
REMEMBER - its quite possible that some have had the same problem before.
NOW: Should we have a STICKY thread for NEW guys??? MODS get on track and set some RULES please. (Lets keep it a developers forum where we new guys can become clever)
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Click to collapse
Not to be rude but have you searched yourself? There is already like few threads addressing this same concern. It does not matter how many threads/sections we create, n00bs will always ask the questions again.
*ggggg* ---> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=356895
If you have some ideas to add there, just PM me. ^^
In my humble opinion....
WARNING.... Long messge ahead....
Since day one of reading this and other "groups" I've thought how chaotic and difficult it is to be involved in this. Speaking from an engineering perspective, the problems discussed on this board may be difficult to solve, but once solved it shouldn't be difficult for others to find the answers. But it often is!
Yes, the repeated asking of the same question is a problem. But the suggestion in the original message thread won't solve it. Yes, people (and not just newies) will continue to repeat the already answered questions.
So let's take the original question (with a little editorial license)
How to make it easy to find answers to problems/questions after the discussion is over?
And how about this one to make it easy for the developers as well.
How to make it easy to get the latest information on custom cooked ROMs and other software such as features, bugs, etc.?
Here's my take on getting to the answer...
1) What are the root causes of the problem?
2) How to solve each one of them direcrly?
3) What's reasonable to get the results you want?
---------------- My thoughts on question 1 ------------------
If I may take a stab at it at a high level...
1) What are the root causes of the problem?
a) Infrastructure - Simplistic and fairly free form tool
b) Mechanisims - almost none, system depends solely on humans following guidelines, monitoring and enforcing guidelines
c) Guidelines - minimum, focused on relavance and "goodwill"
------------------ My thoughts on question 2 ----------------------
2) How to solve each one of them direcrly? (using different examples)
a) Problem: How to make it easy to find answers to problems/questions after the discussion is over?
- Have an infrastructure that supports.....
Question/Problem description:
Discussion:
Answer/Solution:
..... As opposed to what's here now
Question/Problem/Discussion/Answer/Solution in one big thread
b) Problem: How to make it easy to get the latest information on custom cooked ROMs and other software such as features, bugs, etc.?
- Have mechanisms to support versioning, bug tracking, documentation, etc....
Release [naming conventions, date, etc]
Features
Docs
Support [same infrastructure as 2a above]
Bug Tracking
..... As opposed to what's here now
Release announcement/Question/Problem/Discussion/Answer/Solution in one big thread.
c) Guidlines is a tough one because once you get past the "goodwill" stuff you have to find balance between being too rigid and too loose while maximizing effectiveness. A steering group is often used to do this sort of thing. It could be comprised of different interests to help ensure a better outcome.
In the end, I think the solution is either - deal with it the way it is, or make it a forum-wide issue to address.
Well, a solution, like you describe it, could be a hierarchical step by step information system... but... Who'd be able to administrate this? I can't even follow all threads in the Kaiser forum, although i am reading hours every day.
The problem are those, who cannot/don't want to use the search function. But this problem exists everywhere...
And that takes me back to a NUMERO UNO thread about search, rules and so on where a general code of conduct could be present...
Perhaps the real problem is - that we dont write enough info in the WIKI....
Another suggestion: At 4winmobile there was some threads reserved for stuff related to specific subjects (testing and so) and threads reserved for questions and "thank you" stuff.. Perhaps we should make a new SUB FORUM under KAISER related to questions that are NOT related to developement / testing and stuff like that.
Could be KAISER QUESTIONS where every question/discussion is accepted.
In that way we could open the door for all questions and more without any getting irritated with the number of repeated questions.
??
With all do respect (sincerely) it is easy to dismiss, but I think it is still worth discussing/considering.
bmueller77 said:
but... Who'd be able to administrate this? I can't even follow all threads in the Kaiser forum, although i am reading hours every day....
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The answer to your question (at least in my opinion) is if someone (question originator) asks a question and an answer is provided or problem solved, they (question originator) should properly document it per the infrastructure and guidelines provided.
Even with the current freeform system this is doable.
bmueller77 said:
...The problem are those, who cannot/don't want to use the search function.....
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While there is no doubt this happens, I believe it happens much less than commonly thought. Dredging through threads, search after search for someone new is challenging when they often have a hard time forming the question properly, let alone piecing the various technospeak notes.
tomsenna said:
With all do respect (sincerely) it is easy to dismiss, but I think it is still worth discussing/considering.
The answer to your question (at least in my opinion) is if someone (question originator) asks a question and an answer is provided or problem solved, they (question originator) should properly document it per the infrastructure and guidelines provided.
Even with the current freeform system this is doable.
While there is no doubt this happens, I believe it happens much less than commonly thought. Dredging through threads, search after search for someone new is challenging when they often have a hard time forming the question properly, let alone piecing the various technospeak notes.
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Click to collapse
Most do not READ or SEARCH... it is becoming a mojor problem... the same posts over adn over... and then the n00ns ge upset when the people helping them point the to a place to read thier answer rather just handing them the answer straight up.... getting help by asking a question is great but save the rest of us from answering the sames questions over and over when there are stickys and WIKIS to help them..... I don't know alot about this but I search and search and when I can answer questions for people.. most of which I do not know the answer to the question but I can search and find it in about 10 seconds........
Just my 2 cents
This is my first post; I could be considered a super newbie.
I just ordered the Tilt and can hardly wait, I am preparing a folder with all the stuff I need to do including Dutty's V4.
The problem with searching for a noob is, you don't know exactly what to search for. This forum is very overwhelming at first with all the different version talk, different lingo, problems, etc. I almost gave up and said screw changing it, I have spent hours upon hours reading here the last few days and I am starting to get it figured out. The problem is it is a little dis-organized, and what would seem to be the most basic and obvious question to you is a stumper to some one like me (it is actually harder to find basic answers then it is to find more technical ones because no one wants to answered the basic ones, thinking that answered is too obvious).
A Newb Board would be perfect, with a few stickies (not the nine million that the other threads have) with the most basic FAQ and guides. From there you can link to the other FAQ or threads.
Questions that I had at first (I ordered a Tilt so they are all based on that):
1) Why do some ROM's have a AT&T Tilt Version, and are these the only ones that will work on my Tilt?-----The Tilt version of ROM's tend to include all of the "bloat" ware that came from AT&T (software trials, etc.).
-----No, you do not have to have a "Tilt" ROM
2) What is the AT&T Tilt missing that other verisons of the "Kaiser" have.
-----AT&T Strips out neat features that come stock on the phone like TouchFlo (an almost iPhone like interface for media) and also includes lots of memory hogging un-needed programs
3)Which ROM should I get?
-----Simply put there is no way to keep this up-to-date enough to answere this question. ROM's are constantly comming out and being updated.
-----Your best bet would be to stick to the most popular ROM's, Dutty's seams to have the most support. You can also look at peoples signatures.
Resources:
--Must Haves:
-----Hard SPL
-----Tilt Keyboard Fix
--Usefull Links (also check stickies)
-----XDA Wiki
-----ROM Flashing FAQ
-----Revert back to Original ROM
-----CHECK THE STICKIES!
If a Newb Board is made I would be more then happy to help create FAQ's/Stickies.
EDIT: I would like to add that the stickies are crazy, way to many replies, what would be good, and an easy solution, would be to split the sticky topics so that the Sticky only has posts from the original auther, he/she can update that sticky with new fixes/updates, and the sticky could contain a link to the discussion thread, that way the sticky stays clean, and every thing can be discussed in a non sticky thread.
Long hours of reading same question over and over again
This is my first post and this is why:
I joined the forum quite a while ago just so I could download the sim unlock for my wizard. I read everything I could find because if it bricked my phone - I knew it would be my fault. I did not have to ask any questions and the unlock process was successful. (it wasn't an easy process for a first timer)
I have been away from the forum for a while, until I got my tilt back in October. I have been hooked ever since. Before I download and install a ROM, I read. When I have issues with a ROM, I read. By the time I am done with the reading, there is nothing for me to ask. I still don't know how the cooks do it, but when I'm ready to find out - I'll read.
The repeated questions have really gotten monotonous. I will get 50 pages into a thread and find myself skimming through because I already know what is going to be asked next.
Warning.... here I go again... ignore at will
Alaskan_awd said:
This forum is very overwhelming at first with all the different version talk, different lingo, problems, etc. I almost gave up and said screw changing it, I have spent hours upon hours reading here the last few days and I am starting to get it figured out. The problem is it is a little dis-organized, and what would seem to be the most basic and obvious question to you is a stumper to some one like me (it is actually harder to find basic answers then it is to find more technical ones because no one wants to answered the basic ones, thinking that answered is too obvious).
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Exactly, couldn't agree more. If this didn't strike an emotional cord with people, I think the answer would be... yes there are people who don't do thier homework first, but there are at least as many who do. So let's focus on the ones that do and perhaps it will give fewer excuses for those who don't.
Having a so called "newbie" area.... sorry that I'm a doubting Thomas, but what would be the change? Okay, let's say it exists. First good thing, get the newbs out of your hair. Now they have a sandbox to play in. Are the information, conversations and all else different? Same structure, just a different sandbox. What happens when they play in your sandbox when they can't find what they are looking for in thier's? I can hear it already (no one in particular of course, but the flames do happen already). After a while, who's playing in the newb sandbox? Some of those with the expertise may conclude "all the newb questions have been answered" and tend not to visit the newb sandbox. And look out... less help... here come the newbs trickling in for help again.
Okay, enough of my drama. My point is, without fixing the real problem you're just fooling yourself (IMHO). Why is it always necessary to to things over and over again rather than do it correctly the first time?
This happens in software and hardware development everyday. There's a difference between managing constraints and good enough. I suppose it happens in every industry doesn't it? I guess it's a human thing
navyguy said:
The repeated questions have really gotten monotonous. I will get 50 pages into a thread and find myself skimming through because I already know what is going to be asked next.
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Couldn't agree more! And the skimming (which is normal) happens when there is no perceived value or frustration or whatever. Then you could miss a minute detail if you were looking for an answer. This happened in the last few days to someone who read and read and read. He asked a question after doing so, was told to go back an read and he did. After a couple of time it was discovered he missed one simple thing.... "cd to the directory". how many messages later burried in a bunch of other conversations were there? Only the next person who has the same problem and dredges through it will know for sure. Just one of many example out there..... and the beat goes on.
I've been seeing a lot of hostility & berating in the Kaiser forum lately. A lot of it stems from noobies with posts about things that have already been resolved, or about fearfully wanting to flash a new ROM.
A lot of the people with the really advanced CE knowledge are always busy & subtracting from their time affects all of us because they have less time to innovate & create.
I was thinking what if we created a new Sub-forum for Noobies with issues or with a desire to flash, but not the knowledge. We could have a few people there as Mods or some sort of assistant mod as a clearing house for the noobies that are coming everyday.
This could be a introduction to XDA & a way for the Noobie to learn good community principles & basic beginer knowledge. Learn how to post, search & where & how to find the information they need. A way to break them in, with a few patient people helping & guiding them.
If there were more serious issues you would then only have one or two persons bugging everyone else, (& the gods like Oli, Jocky, Dutty, Chainfire, & all the others I'm forgeting) instead of every noobie with the same question every day.
I am up for doing something like this, I've learned a lot here, & I'm sure one or two others would also be willing to give some of their time to make this place better.
With the tools available through IM & File Sharing thru MSN Messenger, I think we could cut the number of duplicate posts, & flame responses in half easily making it easier for everyone to find the information they need.
What do you think?
1. Is a noobie flashing & problem sub-forum a good idea?
2. Are you willing to help out & give back?
Yes and Yes
Every forum goes through this crap whenever a new flashing starts. Just realise that you were a noob once and get over it.
Just ignore noob posts if you don't want to help them.
That won't fix the problem. Why? The n00bs that post repeatedly answered questions don't read...and if they don't read then they'll post in the wrong forum because they "didn't know any better"...
This comes back to the same thing I've said all along...you can't fix stupid. Yes, we were all n00bs at one point. In many ways we will always be n00bs because tech changes so fast. But the majority of us take the time to read and research a bit to make sure the question hasn't been asked or to make sure we have all the information we need before embarking on the addictive ride of ROM Flashing. The ones that aren't willing to do that will most likely not bother asking questions in the n00b forum...they'll just post away in the Upgrading forum without a care in the world.
I understand the frustration with seeing so many of us lose it and unleash the fury of a thousand flames upon the unsuspecting n00b...and I apologize for my part in that...sorta...because I think they do deserve to have their brains bashed in by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick for not reading...
Agree with jarek91, can't fix stupid, just have to hope that they evolve quick enough to not be a consistent nuisance or hope they end up on the darwin awards email.
well, if we keep ignoring, soon, we'll get tire and stop coming here because the forum is flooded w/ noob questions (those questions have been answered numerous of time). They start the question with "I've searched, but could NOT find anything" eventhough the answer is in the stickies just above their questions.
BTW, before you criticize me, GSLEON3, or anyone for supporting the new sub forum for newbie, remember that, this forums is xda-developers, we develop and share knowledge. We welcome noob, but dont want to spend too much time with noob questions (most of the time I ignore )
xultar said:
Every forum goes through this crap whenever a new flashing starts. Just realise that you were a noob once and get over it.
Just ignore noob posts if you don't want to help them.
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I DO REALIZE THAT! I'm talking about centralizing it & am willing to help. I don't think that this is part of "Every Forum", this is the Kaiser Forum & includes the best & brightest from XDA. So why not make it a different forum, set it apart from the others & make it a better community through helping others. I think this would not only help the noobie, but everyone as a whole would benefit because the upgrading forum would be less cluttered making the search function actually usable to the new guy that doesn't undestand how to narrow his searches.
I understand about not reading, but they'd learn quickly if they see they only get answers if they go to the big bold "NOOBIES START HERE" forum. Especially if there's a sticky that says "Your post WILL be DELETED unless".
GSLEON3 said:
I understand about not reading, but they'd learn quickly if they see they only get answers if they go to the big bold "NOOBIES START HERE" forum. Especially if there's a sticky that says "Your post WILL be DELETED unless".
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There was a stickie?
Which is exactly how that would be met. (So I'm a pessimist...)
We've all asked "n00b" questions, and we should be allowed to do so. If you make a forum called "n00b questions" the same people who don't read the stickies will STILL post in the main forum, and say they didn't see the "n00b questions" forum.
It's unavoidable, and the best thing we can do is help the people who ask these questions by telling them to search, but also providing them the answer, so that they learn and get their answer.
met3ora said:
We've all asked "n00b" questions, and we should be allowed to do so. If you make a forum called "n00b questions" the same people who don't read the stickies will STILL post in the main forum, and say they didn't see the "n00b questions" forum.
It's unavoidable, and the best thing we can do is help the people who ask these questions by telling them to search, but also providing them the answer, so that they learn and get their answer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I still ask dumb questions from time to time. My intent is not to slam the new guy, quite the opposite actually. I'm talking about a sub-forum where they can find the answer & a little support to some of the most common questions & issues that arise when entering the world of Flashing & Upgrading.
A place where a few willing people can hook up with the new comer & use tools klike IM & filesharing to walk the new guy through flashing & problem solving, kind of hands on instruction where you can walk the timid newcomer through his issues while using the tools to show him, through his own action, how to figure things out. Again, a sort of less advanced clearing house of sorts. Not a place of punishment for being new, but more of a "Welcome to XDA, figuring this stuff out can be fun & exciting, let me show you how" type of a place.
I like the noobie, & I really like the noobie that has a "I think my phone is bricked" challenge. I just think it would be a nice touch to have a place for the new guy to go where he could not just find the answers, but the reasoning behind them.
I also know that many don't read the stickies, but people do read the forum headers, the name of the forum & sub-forum, & if they saw "This is the place to get answers about how to flash & fix flash issues, that is where he's gonna go. Everybody else has been here long enough to know that if they have a major contribution, where it should be posted.
It would be like tiered service, most noobie problems are similar & can be handled there, if something more advanced pops up, or a bug detemined to affect many, then the mod or admin bumps it up to the next level.
Oh, & mcmexican you think everyone's an idiot
Maybe this is material for a new thread, but...
I think we should use a new wiki.
1. The wiki software used here is pretty bad.
2. The wiki here takes up bandwidth.
Using something like wetpaint.com (there are many others) provides a place that's different from here, using someone else's bandwidth.
Also, they have easier-to-edit wiki's. I think the more attractive, organized, and navigable the wiki is, the less newbie problems we'll have.
nevermind...
I think the subforum sounds like an excellent idea. I'm not nearly an expert but have done some flashing and so on and would gladly help out if I have the time. Only problem as I can see is that it will be hard to draw the line between the "noob forum" and the regular one.
i am trying for ten minutes to put my thoughts into words...English is not my native language. i hope i am gonna be able to make myself understood...
here is how to do it:
1. create something like a gate or tunnel where newbies have to go through. some thing, where they cant right away post something. they can read.
and if they want to post a tread, they have to go through some kind of selection menu or so. just like on ebay when you want to sell something.
so lets say someone wants to post a tread, there is a selection of main toppings they have to go through. and so on. till they get automatically redirected to the answer of what they were going to ask in the first place...
they are forced to go through some kind of multiple choice thing...
2. i think its super annoying when someone like dutty brings out a new ROM and you want to read through it, to find out what might be wrong with it, just to read a million people saying: cool man, thanks dude blablabla.
don't get me wrong. i love his ROMs. but i should sent him a pm or create a poll thing so people vote on how much they like it. his treads reach easily 2000 replies. 1900 are thank you notes...
thanks dutty,
georgios
I agree. The same people not searching the forums, nor reading stickies, the Wiki, or any FAQ's will post in the regular forums anyway. I think when you get some of these people new to the forum there is so much information they get overwhelmed and just ask in the first place they find.
In another forum I'm a member of we have people asking Verizon questions in the AT&T forum, people asking about CDMA phones in the GSM forum, and such. We really divided it up... there are separate forums for each carrier, and forums for each of the major device manufacturers, then there's the Motorola forum with the Razr subfourm, and then there's the CDMA models and GSM model subforums under that. The vague questions still come... "I want to hack my phone, how do I do that???" When you finally get them to reply back with the model and carrier they have they have almost always posted in the wrong forum.
I guess what I'm saying is that it sounds like a good idea, but the problem will still be there, and seem even worse, because those that post first and read the FAQ's later (If at all) will be posting in the main forum anyway.
-Jay
I am a brand new guy to the board and have only had my Tilt little over a week and have really enjoyed testing and learning all this stuff that a ton of you guys have already mastered. I like the idea of giving us new guys a area where we can try and hash things out ourselves. When you are new you don't mind if guys ask the same questions you just ask 10 mins ago, but I know that must be a pain in the butt to some of the more skilled and seasoned guys around here. I believe if you just leave us on our own where we can go back and read what you guys have already posted for us and then come back and ask questions that we might still have between ourselves then we will figure it out soon enough and lets face it, that is how we all learn. Just my 2 cents, but please make sure you pros do stop by and check on us ever so often so we don't blow up the mobile phone world.
Thanks,
JMan
I like the sub-forum idea. Just to point out, Modaco does something like this... they have a beginner forum. Not that xda has to be like Modaco, but there is a precedent for this...
Absolute Beginners
New to Windows Mobile? New to MoDaCo? Lost and don't know where to start? Post in here and a member of our team will point you in the right direction, and move your post to the appropriate area!
http://www.modaco.com/forum.html
You could make people who like to direct and assist others as the moderators of this forum to act as traffic cops... so to speak. This will leave the cooks to focus on doing great ROMs.
I have a question for a Mod or Admin if they read this... maybe the search problem is a admin setting problem. Can someone verify that vBulletin Search to FULLTEXT inside the admincp of vBulletin?
There are also ways to embed google search into the forum:
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=171042
why not create a new one?
I'm new to the forum, and honestly did not fully understand the title of the forum till now - that the forum was primarily for hard core developers. Given the success and ease of Google, we find a gold mine like xda, and fall in love.
So since there is a Kaiser, Kaiser upgrading, and Kaiser Accessories, why can't there be a Kaiser for rookies (took me a while to figure out what what a noob was). That might be a way for us lesser ones ( juniors) to talk, and the genius's out there (seniors) dont subscribe ! Then u would have every right to FLAME anyone on the upgrading forum. Plus we may be more willing to jump in and answer without the guru's watching.
my 2 cents
I think a noobie forum is a good idea. I too have seen alot of hostility towards "stupid" or repeat questions. While I am not exactly a noobie, I still have a dumb question every now and then, that's just the way it goes when one is learning I guess. I often can't find things when I search, when you are very new this is especially hard, because sometimes you don't even know what to search for.
I have received excellent help here from many kind people, and just don't know what I would have done without this forum. But even I, who am not a COMPLETE noobie, got made fun of the other day by a poster, because after reading something several times, I missed something on a page. The poster not only posted twice to point out my stupidity, but even took the time and energy to create a photoshop graphic to show what an idiot I was for missing the information. I thought it was sad that attitude was taken. I ALWAYS go out of my way to help others, with what limited knowledge I have. I often receive PMs of can you help me..., and I try my best to explain things as clearly as I can.
I totally understand that there are many here, who are way too advanced for questions like "how do I make my today look like yours?" And I would never expect them to spend time answering, when there time would be much better spent on more advanced things (and I'm not being sarcastic at all, I really do completely understand more advanced members should spend their time on more advanced things). There are some of us here with some knowledge able to help those with simple questions, so I'd say maybe people who are bothered by others posts, could just ignore the dumb questions. LOL, I've never even flashed a ROM (too chicken and broke to void my warranty), but I sure can put together a great looking and functioning Today screen. An I surely know how to install every tweak and cab to make my phone function as efficiently as possible. And, I will be more than happy to answer questions of that caliber
Maybe a noobie forum could cut down on some of the hostility, and we could help out beginners. I for one would be more than willing to answer any questions that I am capable of answering, and leave those who are more knowledgeable to deal with the hard stuff
I am seeing more and more dis-respectful replies to newbies then ever before, and it is getting old, all this does is run off potential new comers to this site who might be the next great cooker and spreads a not so good rep about this site
at the same time I see some mods have be respectful to others in there sigs. I think this should become policy across the forum period and those that are rude and disrespectful in their reply should get a vacation to let them know this is not to be tolerated IMO
This site is about growth and interest in these toys of ours, not about ripping newbies who may ask a question that maybe have been asked many times over, so what, why not just post a link to the search and to the Wiki and say welcome to the forums , instead of bashing them? It would leave a better taste in the newbs mouths and they might become a contributor in the future.
Also think about this, just how many of you cookers have something in your sig asking for a cup of coffee ? or Donate to XDA or Donations graciously accepted. Well if a newbie is made to feel welcomed and comfortable here , They are more then likely going leave you a little something.
Me , If I notice a rom cooker being rude, they are not very likely going to get anything from me even if they had something great and useful.
I just replied to a newbie that asked a simple question, but not before someone posted a B.S. reply, I instead answered it with something useful and promoted the search engine at the same time
This did two things, first the newbies was made to feel welcomed and also if someone was to search the same question, they would find a reasonable answer.
BTW B.S. replies just screw up the search results forcing newbies just ask questions instead of finding answers.
Flame away if you want or become part of the solution .
i agree,
there are times that newbs do need help. some of those who i have pointed in the right direction have tried to search, but either search the wrong thing or don't know what they are looking for.
it does work two ways and some of the mods and senior members are to be commended for their help. ( i can think of about 10 folks who go out of their way to help as many as possible and never rip a newb)
those who are helped are more likely to help others.
I find it often takes longer to explain how to use the search facility properly to yield useable results than it takes to answer the specific question, but there is no excuse for rude replies, if you don't like what you see simply move on rather than posting an offensive reply - Mike
Here is a good example of what I am talking about,
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=403829
This reply by kspirit did nothing to help this user ,
No , nothing like that runs on the tilt..
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.
its these kind of responses that need to be curtailed.
Even though a mod did respond , he/she did nothing regarding the above users response. All this does is give the impression that this behavior is condoned .
I am not knocking the Moderator (I do find him to be very helpful) but they do have a huge influence on how others act on this site, and by not informing this above user that these types of replies are not helpful or uncalled for) they are giving the impression that it is okay.
Mods & Admin , what do you all think ? Am I off track here ?
Just wanted to add this:
If the mods were to take the time to edit the titles like this one " New AT&T Tilt Phone - Help" to something like this...Will software like HTC Home, Mobile Shell, Pocket Informant work on both the tilt & 8525?. or something along those lines.....
This would help with search engine results, Yea its abit more work for the mods to do this but it will help greatly in producing more viable search results .
Just a thought...
i think what drives some ppl to be rude is the fact that the ppl who decided to ask a repeated question were told that they have to search for an existing answer before asking a new question, and that they decided not to do that and just post a new one, i think both are mistaken here, and the one with the question brought it on themselves. i really don't like rude answers, but!
AthenaLod said:
i think what drives some ppl to be rude is the fact that the ppl who decided to ask a repeated question were told that they have to search for an existing answer before asking a new question, and that they decided not to do that and just post a new one, i think both are mistaken here, and the one with the question brought it on themselves. i really don't like rude answers, but!
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Ahh do you search much ? this user did not ask the same question twice....
and there is no excuse for being rude, and so what if they had ? a simple link to the Wiki would be a very easy way to deal with it, and a welcome to the forum would get much better results.
why would I want to donate or promote this site in any form if all I got is ripped on ? hmmm
Like Mike has posted,
if you don't like what you see simply move on rather than posting an offensive reply - Mike
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This would yield better results .
by "told" i meant that for example in the kaiser forum, the only sticky there is titled "**BEFORE YOU POST START HERE**" and it says "Read and search before posting. Reply to an existing thread before creating a new thread. Redundant threads will be closed." so, if somebody decides that he/she wants to just ignore this, he/she brought it on themselves. i don't do bad language, or encourage it, but, sometimes some ppl can be really so lazy to even do a search
Just my personal opinion....
I've only been here for a few months and I have to say, I've seen more useless threads then ever before! Now, don't get me wrong, I love to help, and do all the time, but at some point, you see a junior on their first post asking something like, "How do I uninstall an app?", or "How do I turn the phone off?" So at some point of seeing these threads, someone will be a bit frustrated and point them to the search and wiki fetaures located on the top bar instead of a full answer. I fully understand your point, but like I said, these members who join just for a simple answer then after 10 minutes ask why nobody is helping can aggrivate all of us users who come here for new information on a daily basis. Especially when they start a thread, get an answer, and never return.
Look here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=404065
Now in this post, this user was looking for a specific dialer, and of course it's impoosible to search for an image, but I did help. Actually at first, I was a bit mad at the fact they posted the image, but didn't ask in the thread they got the photo from, then realized the image wasn't from here. But after I saw that, I tried to give some info on it, but I can't spend time looking for something they want, but I can help, so I did.
I think I'm done typing , but I'll say this, when I first joined, actually being my first forum, I had a bunch of questions, I didn't feel a need to post a thread for one simple question. I actually spent about a week after work searching and going through a bunch of pages looking for info, and I found a lot!
Also, a suggestion, I asked this in the SPAM thread, how about putting a block on junior users poting new threads? It would prevent SPAM and these simple question threads.
It seems that mods and Admin are strangely silent regarding this topic......wonder why..
I don't think they aren't responding for any unknown reason, this topic has been discussed so many times, there is no interest in tackling this issue anymore.
Just wanted to say that F2504x4 put the problem very articulately and I totally agree with him. Pointing out a mistake (such as not using the search facility) need not be done in a rude and dismissive way.
I will just remind us that we were all noobs one day, and also that some people are more technically minded than others. What may seem to us a simple and trivial question is obviously not so for the one asking it.
TheChampJT said:
I don't think they aren't responding for any unknown reason, this topic has been discussed so many times, there is no interest in tackling this issue anymore.
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They should be taking a interest in this.....if they are becoming numb to it , then they need to take a hard look at why they are a moderator, Sorry if this sounds harsh . Moderators are the leaders that others look to for guidance, they help set the tone of the community.
This is a great site, with a lot of great talent , but it will not take long before it becomes over shadowed with a darker side.
Continued growth is key to any forum and community , and running off new comers with not help with that.
Fact is you will always have newbs ignoring stickies and search engines , nothing will ever change that.
All this site can do is maintain a positive atmosphere , and continuing education to those that join .
So i ask again , what say you Admin and mods ?
Thank you pedmond for this , very well put.
I will just remind us that we were all noobs one day, and also that some people are more technically minded than others. What may seem to us a simple and trivial question is obviously not so for the one asking it.
Yesterday 07:49 PM
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F2504x4 said:
It seems that mods and Admin are strangely silent regarding this topic......wonder why..
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Don't really think the issue is with Mods and Admin. I do see a lot of evidence of them cleaning up threads if they're getting out of hand and sorting out users that are really getting obnoxious. But the problem seems to be that certain people feel their post count is a license to have a go at the newer members. And certain new members seem to think the world is their private helpdesk and that the purpose of these forums is to instantly deal with their every need. Well in any large group you'll always get those that are unpleasant to deal with - that's life. There are just as many, maybe more, who're a real pleasure to deal with and try their best to help. I think if new members read the forum rules and were prepared to lurk a bit before posting, then they'd quickly get an idea of what types of questions to ask and how to get help.
So while I personally totally agree with your views on decent behaviour etc I don't think its an issue to get wound up about. If you can filter out some of the fluff, this site is still the best resource for our phones by far.
(But I've only got about 80 posts, so maybe I'll change my mind when I hit 100! )
What are the Mods/Admins supposed to do? Ban every user?
I often tell people to search for things when they have one post, and have a very stupid question with a blatant answer. When they do that, they don't deserve to be treated with a great amount of respect.
When someone who has evidently searched around, and has clearly tried to solve their own problems and then as a last resort asks for help, I'm far more inclined to be generous with my time, and try to help them.
Some people are obnoxious and post without searching at all, but the admins/mods can't go and ban people because they were once an idiot.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2360488&posted=1#post2360488
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
l3v5y said:
What are the Mods/Admins supposed to do? Ban every user?
I often tell people to search for things when they have one post, and have a very stupid question with a blatant answer. When they do that, they don't deserve to be treated with a great amount of respect.
When someone who has evidently searched around, and has clearly tried to solve their own problems and then as a last resort asks for help, I'm far more inclined to be generous with my time, and try to help them.
Some people are obnoxious and post without searching at all, but the admins/mods can't go and ban people because they were once an idiot.
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Wow what a way to start off a reply Ban every user ?
I think you should re read what has been stated, I did not hint or say ban anyone..but if that is what it takes to effect a change then maybe it should be considered but it should be directed at those that are creating a un-friendly and less then helpful place . IMO
First off I have no problem with someone being told to search, its how they are being told and some of the un-called for comments that are becoming more and more common and is the real problem, go read the example I posted earlier.
what do you consider a worthy response in this thread ? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=404065
As to the stupid questions , Idiots and respect, ahhh I thinks its way past beer thirty .
swanlm said:
. But the problem seems to be that certain people feel their post count is a license to have a go at the newer members.
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while I agree with a lot of what you said, In the example I gave , its even the low post count members that are posting these less then helpful responses, so that is telling me that this a is trend that is spreading and the bad thing is that a mod even replied in the thread, and did nothing about the response given, they only quoted part of my reply about searching.... ( I am still wondering why...)
Btw I only started this thread after a lot of reading and seeing this trend become more common place.
It's not about being against Noobies...
Too many come here from other sites for the wrong reason. Many of the questions that get jumped, closed & merged really should have been asked at the AT&T or other carrier support forums.
I'll quote this post of mine:
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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Good post and very worthwhile reading kyphur,
and I understand clearly why it was written.
Just be aware of this trend and its long term results...
Btw I have walked in Mod shoes , and understand the inner workings of forums, and it is no easy task managing a community.
Thanks for posting that.
This is a new phone with new users coming in here every day. I've seen he same one or two people here not answer a single question, they just say wrong forum or hey let me google that for you.
Way to foster a growing community.
I think everyone that replies should encourage people to search for themselves and put things in the proper forums.
I know it falls on deaf ears as most people want to be spoon fed - it is just to much work to read 30 pages of a thread to understand how something works - they just want the short answer. Then they complain when they miss a step and break something.
I agree. It seems like they just started recently. Ive had my phone since launch and it hasnt been like this. It does get annoying to see dumb questions but most on here its our first android phone ( backflip and aria didnt really cut it).
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I have just decided if you are a thread Nazi I will block you. I have 2 on my ignore list right now.
gunnyman said:
I have just decided if you are a thread Nazi I will block you. I have 2 on my ignore list right now.
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If you don't know how to block people, let me know and and I'll google it for you ; )
J/k, don't block me.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
ashoooo said:
If you don't know how to block people, let me know and and I'll google it for you ; )
J/k, don't block me.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
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LOL 10chars
gunnyman said:
This is a new phone with new users coming in here every day. I've seen he same one or two people here not answer a single question, they just say wrong forum or hey let me google that for you.
Way to foster a growing community.
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I do notice the large amount of people that seem to ask questions that have already been covered or start cloned threads that do not need repeated. You could view it as overly eager people who want to jump into the community before getting to know it or as people to lazy to do a search and/or read some existing threads.
Either way, I always felt ignoring the post seems to be a better option than making a negative comment. I think you are correct in saying this does not "foster a growing community."
Do keep in mind that it is sometimes hard to search for the correct answer or how to word a question when you are new to a subject. Back in my first few weeks of XDA on my old tilt, I felt a bit bombarded by new terminology and confusing tutorials. More experienced members should be able to determine if an OP is partialy ignorant or just plain lazy. I say when in doubt, ignore it.
Good post, Shovelhead. I agree with your comments.
I think another factor is that just now many people are just being introduced to smart phones. And that in turn probably is causing many new forum users to come on board. I mean new to forums, period. So they may not know the methods, and protocols expected.
It's interesting that I see in many forums that some people will expend more effort griping or castigating someone than it would take to just answer the question, or ignore the post/thread if it is one that doesn't interest them.
I actually am not familiar with the ignore option. I presumed that would just ignore if they sent you PM messages.
Can someone Google that for me?
ewingr said:
Good post, Shovelhead. I agree with your comments.
I actually am not familiar with the ignore option. I presumed that would just ignore if they sent you PM messages.
Can someone Google that for me?
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In efforts to prevent confusion, I was referring to a personal ability to ignore. I have not used any ignore features through the forum. I am currently ignorant to these features.
Shovelhead84 said:
In efforts to prevent confusion, I was referring to a personal ability to ignore. I have not used any ignore features through the forum. I am currently ignorant to these features.
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I put them on ignore so I don't say something banworthy to them. It's the best form of self moderation for me.
I understand your point, but having the developement section tampered with unnecessary threads hampers its readability. And to many it is fundamental to keep up with multiple threads in there.
I'm not the kind of person that goes around bashing new users, but I did notice an increase in such threads lately, and although "thread nazis" can be just as annoying, don't forget there's no personal gain for them in it: they're just trying to keep the forum as clean and readable as possible.
I mean, there is a reason to have a Q&A section: using it would actually make it resourceful for newcomers while keeping developement clean.
I actually would say there haven't been many "thread nazis" in the Captivate forums. I read development for the most part and there are MANY questions (hell half of them start with [Q] that have NOTHING to do with development, people just want a question answered for them) that just belong in Q&A.
Most of the people (most, not all) tell people that they are in the wrong section but usually still provide the answer in hopes of letting the thread die. asking how a command works in adb does not count as captivate-specific android development.
it's important to remind people that the development section should be left for DEVELOPING android on the phone or TESTING new developments on the phone (or thinktanks and the occasional request for apps that would have to be dev'd to get functional)
Has anybody tried to use the search since the redesign? All my searches come up with a hundred pages of nothing remotely related to what I searched for, and that's using all combinations of the advanced search. At least for me it's useless now.
This stuff here makes mad:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=752670
Sent from my captivate
In my begginings in this forum I'm ashamed to admit that I acted like one too. But now what I do is when I see an out of place thread I reply very succinctly almost bordering on a terse response and then I suggest the Q&A section.
I then proceed to answer as many questions as I can for 5 min in an effort to make the Q&A section the best it can be and not clutter the rest of the sections.
boborone said:
Has anybody tried to use the search since the redesign? All my searches come up with a hundred pages of nothing remotely related to what I searched for, and that's using all combinations of the advanced search. At least for me it's useless now.
This stuff here makes mad:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=752670
Sent from my captivate
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I find the search function works very well.
As for not liking references to google - I don't see the problem - OK, maybe you were looking for more specific information, but like all things, likes of forums is suggestive. So why not use google, search for Android forums, then pick the ones you like.
So many questions are answered by using google but no one tries that, so unless someone says "I have tried google, and only find X - but I want Y" then a response that says "try Google" is not out of line.
My $0.02 has always been this ...
We were all noobs once. When I was a noob I had enough sense to spend time and effort rooting around XDA to learn about my new (at the time) device before I started to ask questions.
Whether it's here, or on any other message board in cyberspace, that is the standard level of expectation that the senior members of the forum have. Experienced members want to help people and often spend a lot of time adding their experience to the forum, but they also want the new members to try to help themselves first. When they see someone ask a question that's answered in a 'sticky' at the top of the page or one or two posts below on the first page, it can be amazingly frustrating, and as others have said, it unnecessarily clutters up the forum.
So yes, sometimes people are harsh. Personally, if it at least looks like someone has tried to find and answer but can't figure something out, I'm always happy to help. Those who make their very first XDA post a question that has been asked and answered many times will get a 'search is a beautiful thing' response from me with a link to the post where the answer is. It's a subtle jab, yes, but at the same time the poster gets an answer. It's not meant to be a 'Thread Nazi'.
Hopefully that nudges them down the path of looking first and not expecting to be spoon fed everything, and to the realization that the forum doesn't exist simply to be a place to pop in and ask a question and go. Every time I pick up a new device and move to a new forum I see a ton of this ... one hit wonders that you never see again.
I I don't have a problem with that at all.
But what value does "hey you should have posted that somewhere else dumbass" provide. especially in "Dev"
I mean General is the catch all
Q&A is kind of basic
Themes and Apps are self explanatory.
I see dev section as the "hey I wanna break stuff" department. If the answer to a question could break stuff I say it's a dev question.
I agree with most remarks on here. I know i have been too harsh with post on here. But mainly after i read the same post in different threads. I agree that there are alot of newer members now that are lost in the threads lol. So im glad this thread was made and cast new light for me. Guess i need to be nice and more helpfull.
smokestack76 said:
I agree with most remarks on here. I know i have been too harsh with post on here. But mainly after i read the same post in different threads. I agree that there are alot of newer members now that are lost in the threads lol. So im glad this thread was made and cast new light for me. Guess i need to be nice and more helpfull.
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Well well Smoke seems like once again we are on the same device lol. Ill be working in this forum more closely cleaning things up and trying to help point new users in the right direction.
zelendel said:
Well well Smoke seems like once again we are on the same device lol. Ill be working in this forum more closely cleaning things up and trying to help point new users in the right direction.
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Yes this rocks!!! I guess my talks with a few people worked Glad to see ya here
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy