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I would like to learn to program for PPC.
I am familiar with x86 assembly , and several RISC assembly langauages, while I understand it won't help me here, I also do know VB.
What language do you suggest I should learn, and what tools/compilator should I use ?
I would like to program an todat-plugin , among other things,
thnx
Visual Studio .NET is rather easy to use..
Your VB skills may come in handy..
There is allso the opportunity to use pure VB, but it isn't really any good..
The integration between development environment, emulator and device is awesome in VS.NET..
I personally use VS.NET 2003, with only VB.NET installed. Works for me..
The downside is that the applications require the .NET framework, and eat a little more memory than well written apps in other languages..
For absolute power and control; C++ as allways..
[Norwegian]
Ps. Fyll ut profilen bedre..?
[/Norwegian]
with .net 2003
you can do vb.net
c# .net
c++ .net
with embedded visual studio c++ you can do
win32 applications
you can do mfc applications
heard there also in an embedded visual studio vb
which let you do vb without being .net
visual studio 2005 .net will merge embedded visual studio and smart device .net (the .net you can do with 2003 visual studio)
[Norwegian]
Ps. Fyll ut profilen bedre..?
[/Norwegian][/quote]
what would you like to know ?
www.madhacker.org
Anyway, I was really looking for something lighter that the heavily overpriced and over-sised MS Visial Studio - but it seems that there are no better options
well there is a free c# compiler both a compiler which run on the pocketpc and one that is just a free windows c# compiler for windows but .net should be able to work on pocketpc's not matter what
and i also have a gcc compiler for pocketpc as in it run on the pocketpc
just about every compiler you can find which can compile arm code you can use to make programs for pda's using pocketpc2002 and 2003(SE)
AlCapone said:
www.madhacker.org
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:shock:
You are one crazy dude!
I hope this is the right place to put this, if not, mods, feel free to remove and/or delete it. I've dabbled a bit with C before, but that's about the extent of my programming experience. I'd like to create a program that will parse the information from a website and display it... I don't imagine something like that would be hard to do, but I have no idea what tools I would even need to start writing a PPC application.
Kitco (a website that gives live quotes of precious metals) recently came out with an application for the iphone that neatly formats all this information:
http://www.kitco.com/images/banners/KitcoiPhone/iphone.html
I'd like to basically create a PPC version of this application.
Is this something that an individual with next to no experience could hope to achieve ? I'd have to create a GUI, initialize the internet, connect and retrieve a webpage and remove the relevent information before displaying it.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've always wanted to become more familiar with these sorts of things and figured this project would be a great way of learning it.
Thanks!
ThreadMoved
Next to no experience? I dont think so. You have to have a little under your belt first and the only way to achieve that is to start readin right here!
I'm also interested in the expert answers to this question.
My very non-expert understanding is as follows:
VS 2005 (microsoft visual studio) can create executables for WM devices using a SDK (low level) or .Net CF (medium level) interface. You want to use .Net CF (compact framework) because it is supposed to make things easier. I think you have to use C++ to use the SDK but you can use C++, C#, or Visual Basic and write to .NET CF.
VS 2005 is an IDE (integrated development environment). It contains features to edit, compile, and even test your program using simulator/debugger. I think there are some non-microsoft IDE's that can also generate Windows Mobile code -- there is a market for cross-platform environments (e.g. programmers write code using a special library instead of the windows SDK or .NET function and the same source code can be compiled to run on Blackberry, iPhone, S60, Windows Mobile, etc...)
Instead of writing to the phone hardware (or .NET abstraction) directly, you can write your application using Java. You would use some Java compatible IDE (like Eclipse, Jbuilder, or NetBeans) to create Java applets that you download to your phone. You'd have to install a Java VM (virtual machine) on your phone to run these applets. I think the downloadable games for phones are Java applets.
Disclaimer: I haven't worn my "programming cap" since 2001 and hopefully things have gotten simpler. In my previous life I designed operating systems for mainframe computers.
Hello XDA-dev community
For the past couple of months i've been thinking about getting a Pocket PC for a new phone instead of a Symbian Nokia [ah my old 6630, may she rest in pieces...]. Anywho, I think i've decided on the HTC Touch Pro / Raphael. At ~AU$600 it's the highest I was trying not to pay (i'm not rich), however it seems to be a pretty powerful and full featured device.
I do have a few questions I hope some of the kind experts/veterans here might be able to answer for me though
1) I written a few things in Java and PHP and other even-more-basic languages, but am interested in learning a new language with hopes to create software for both Windows PC and Windows Mobile. What choices do we as end-users have here? .NET is an obvious one [I own a copy of Visual Studio 2008 Pro], but are there any other languages of note?
2) From the Raphael specs on the Wiki here, it lists it as an ARMv6 architecture-based processor. This comes from the ARM11 family, which is the successor (I think) to the XScale family (ARMv5TE). Are these ARMv6 processors backwards compatible with 'XScale accelerated' binary builds of software? I.E., a PPC application has two versions for download/purchase - a 'Generic ARM Release' and an 'XScale optimized release' - would the Raphael ARMv6-based device be compatible with these XScale-optimized binaries? Or do ARM do things differently and ARMv6 is not backwards compatible?
3) Has anybody ever heard any rumors or made any talks about porting Android to the Raphael? Just curious. I'd prefer a Windows Mobile device (not a Linux user) but I can see all this OpenSource stuff does have a future... EDIT: Nevermind, I found the page at http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=RaphaelLinux
4) How does the device perform with 3D-heavy applications? Does it make use of any sort of acceleration (I assume no, not like the iPhone for example).
OK thats all... thanks a lot for your replies, if there's anything else you think is worth mentioning to a soon-to-be-first-time owner of a Windows Mobile device, please do say so Cheers.
In reply to 2) VS 2005 Pro onwards targets code at ARMv4I, basically generic ARM processors also capable of running the Thumb (16 bit) instruction set. Thumb represents a limited set of ARM 32 bit instructions coded as 16 bit instructions. It allows much smaller code sections, but with megabytes of memory available these days who cares? If you code in .NET none of this matters anyway, as the code is created as IL byte code, the .NET runtime sorts it out.
If you code in Embedded Visual C++ 3 or 4 the target chipset is ARMv4. When you use the IDE to create the code on a WinMo 5/6 machine it complains that the target machine cannot run the code. It's lying, what it really means is it does not recognize the processor class. As it is ARM 32bit code only it will work.
It is not worth targetting the code for a specific, (read non generic), ARM chipset. You are just making a rod for your own back when it won't work on something else.
Thanks for the reply stephj. There will indeed be a bit of research for me to do as to which language and/or IDE I decide to choose to train myself in then it seems. Specifically though...
stephj said:
It is not worth targetting the code for a specific, (read non generic), ARM chipset. You are just making a rod for your own back when it won't work on something else.
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...what I was referring to is - I've seen some freeware PPC software, mainly emulators, that have two versions - a 'generic ARM' one and an 'XScale Compatible' alternative version. On the ARMv6 based phones, assuming the software was released back when XScale was the newest ARM family, would both work on the Raphael? If so, which would be faster?
Obviously though, for a developer, creating the most compatible/generic code to work on the widest range of devices is the main focus - later possibly implementing optimiziations or hacks that are specific to a certain platform - but I'm just wondering if these already built, older 'specifically optimized' builds are compatible with the succeeded chipsets.
P.S. Do you know where I could find some resources on choosing between Visual C++ or .NET? I.e. pros and cons of each?
Thanks a lot!
jonusc said:
Hello XDA-dev community
...
1) I written a few things in Java and PHP and other even-more-basic languages, but am interested in learning a new language with hopes to create software for both Windows PC and Windows Mobile. What choices do we as end-users have here? .NET is an obvious one [I own a copy of Visual Studio 2008 Pro], but are there any other languages of note?
...
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Since you have VS2008Pro, C++/win32 if you want fast and lightweight applications
"P.S. Do you know where I could find some resources on choosing between Visual C++ or .NET? I.e. pros and cons of each?"
.net pros
easy to get something running fast even if one is a n00b
got a lot of components meaning less time to develop
can be programmed with c# and c++ and even eeeeewww basic
.net con
slow as in sloooooowww
require one to install the framework if the app
require a newer version then what ones phone came with and the framework is pretty big
and people don't seem to have success with installing it on sd cards
compact framework is also limited in features vs. .net on pc so apps don't just port always
limited in features unless one do unmanaged code
c++ pro
fast
require no extre stuff
small in size and again fast
have access to every feature in the phone
c++ con
one have to do everything and that mean msg loop
and a lot of leg work just to get a dialog with a button
steaper learning curve
more risks of mem leaking
harder to debug as stacktrace is not just there
like on .net
Very nice, thanks for the replies guys
So from what I can gather, a basic .NET application would be ideal for RAD (quick and dirty), particularly GUI-centric applications, but tend to be bulky; whereas C(++) is a more native / low-level language and is thus faster, but very hardcore as most functions need to be done from scratch.
I should have assumed it's pretty much the same as a Windows PC
What about C++ versus C#? And does VS2008 have a decent API/IDE set for mobile development i.e. does it have many libraries for C(++/#) already included or are more easily available?
Thanks again for the answers guys... it's obvious i'm keen to learn about it, but i'm a little worried that someone like me going from stuff like PHP and VB to C might be biting off more than I could chew....? Ah well if .NET is gonna cause problems down the line, then I guess I have no choice
Don't bother with the C++ version of .NET, the casts that you have to make, to get it to work makes the code very hard to read, and besides it only compiles to the IL level anyway, it's just not worth the effort.
So, under .NET use C#, or VB if you prefer, there is not much difference between them, but in my opinion, C# is a bit more elegant.
Under C++ you have the choices of WIN32, ATL (Active Template Library), or MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes), programming models.
WIN32 is the simplist but the hardest to code, the other two add progressively more objects to make things easier, but you need to distribute the run time libraries with them. A simple WIN32 app can be distributed as a single .EXE if the DLLs it already uses are part of the CE/PPC operating system.
PS When it comes to running code compiled for a specific ARM class on your device, just give it a go. If the CPU hits an instruction it can't run, it will throw an exception and stop anyway.
stephj said:
Don't bother with the C++ version of .NET, the casts that you have to make, to get it to work makes the code very hard to read, and besides it only compiles to the IL level anyway, it's just not worth the effort.
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Fair enough. So C++ in VS2008 is a bad idea
stephj said:
So, under .NET use C#, or VB if you prefer, there is not much difference between them, but in my opinion, C# is a bit more elegant.
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Click to collapse
I thought VB was dead? Wasn't VB6 the last one they made? Or is VB just what they call generic/common .NET Framework apps? Anyway, yeah i've read good things about C#, especially compared to .NET in general. EDIT: Oh, .NET is not the program language but VB is *facepalm* I get it, nevermind
stephj said:
Under C++ you have the choices of WIN32, ATL (Active Template Library), or MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes), programming models.
WIN32 is the simplist but the hardest to code, the other two add progressively more objects to make things easier, but you need to distribute the run time libraries with them. A simple WIN32 app can be distributed as a single .EXE if the DLLs it already uses are part of the CE/PPC operating system.
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Ah, same as a Windows PC. That makes sense.
Thanks for the answers I think I might take a look at C sharp.
C++ in VS2008 is fine, use the smart device WIN32 ,ATL, or MFC models take your pick.
Sorry my mistake, the C++ .NET version is not available for smart devices. Its the three models above only.
After additional research, I don't really want to be tied down with the proprietary C# system. So is VS2008 a decent IDE for WIN32 C++ development on Windows Mobile? Or are there better alternatives?
VS 2005/2008 Pro takes some beating. After you have installed about 3 CD's worth of MSDN libraries all the help is on tap. The IDE also looks at MSDN online if you have an internet connection to see if there are any forums on the same topic you are inquiring about.
The code is generated as ARMv4I and can be tested/debugged on the images provided by the WinMo 5 or 6 SDK. The emulators are that good you only put it on your phone when you have tested it to death on the emulator.
EVC 3 and 4 use a previous method where the emulators run a x86 version of the code. I still use EVC 4 for code that has to run on anything, Windows Mobile 2003 for example.
It's all pretty proprietory, when it comes down to it, but I guess we're stuck with it.
Hi, I'm trying out developing for my O2 Flame and was wondering if I could use the GNU GCC Compiler for compiling my programs, as I do not have the money for Visual C++ or something like that. If the GCC Compiler can't, can anybody recommend me a free compiler, Thanks in advanced.
You can use the free version of Embedded Visual C++ 4.0, although it was originally designed for development for WM 2003. If you limit the main menu to two items then WM 5.0 onwards will display the program correctly with the buttons either side of the SIP. Any more, and it switches back to the WM2003 style command bar.
For C++ you can develop in the Win32, ATL or MFC models.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
Don't forget to apply SP4 to it after install. (Same page, use the link at the bottom)
It also uses an earlier WM2003 emulator that runs a half way x86/Arm code setup. It works, but the standalone emulator manager with the relevant WinMo SDK does a better job. You will only be able to fully debug the code created in by EVC 4, in its own WM2003 emulator or on a real device, not in the standalone emulator. The standalone emulator images will run your code so you can test it, but you cannot set breakpoints, examine variables. etc.
If you want to develop stuff for GPS, then you may have to add the relevent headers and lib files from later versions of the SDKs
The GNU compiler can be made to work, but I have never tried it.
Thanks for your help!
Hi Guys,
I would like to create simple app with NATIVE code which run in emulator.
It is not possible to use solution in http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1299134&highlight=developer+guide because it's use some ARM code.
Do you have any idea how make things work?
Thank you,
Ch.
You actually could (msotly) use that guide, but you would need to recompile the ARM portion for x86. My guess as to the best way to do this would be to use the "Platform Builder" for CE6 or CE7, instead of using the WinMo 6.5 platform as your target. WinMo only shipped on ARM devices, so far as I know, but the underlying OS, Windows CE, is very portable and the tools for it support building on a wide variety of architectures. WP7 is built on a version of CE somewhere between CE6 and CE7.
Otherwise, the stuff about using ATL, making a COM library, using ComBridge from the WP7 app, etc. all still applies.
That all said... why would you want to do this? Do you not have an actual phone to test on? Porting between ARM and x86 isn't *that* hard, but you shouldn't just assume that it'll work in all cases, so it makes a lot more sense, if you're building native code, to build and test for the same architecture you're planning to release on.
Additionally, the emulator may be missing some of the libraries that are present on the phone.
Thanks a lot. I will try it.
This is very beginning of my school project. I want only demonstrate that is possible to run some native code on WP7. Next phase of project will be on real device which I don't have right now..
Well, good luck, but I'd tend to say you're setting yourself up for a risk of failure. I don't know what it will take to use the CE Platform Builder for something like this; I have it installed but have never tried using it.
There may also be a way to compile for x86 using the WinMo build tools; I think some of the old "emulators" for WinMo were also x86 virtual machines (much like the WP7 emulator is). I never tried, though.
Risk of failure? I don't see how. The hardest part of this is finding a way to get his .exe on the emulator device and unlocking it. If he isn't using ARM ASM in his project, "porting" to x86 (or any other processor WinCE supports) should be trivial as long as a sufficiently complete SDK is available. The main issue with x86 on newer Pocket PC-like targets is that there are no Pocket PC SDKs targeting it newer than the Pocket PC 2003 one. If you want to use newer WM5 only features like GPSAPI, you'd probably need to use a CE 6.0 SDK instead.
If he doesn't want to do real time debugging, any of the Windows CE development tools or even 3rd party tools like Bloodshed DevC++, CE gcc/MinGW or FreePascal should all suffice. Windows CE is a very backward compatible OS so even an application targeting the CE 2.11 platform/SDK should still run on WP7 when you are careful to use supported APIs.
If you don't want to install Platform Builder and generate your own custom OS to base an SDK on, there are plenty of SDKs to choose from. Of course, some are worse than others. If you are using the CE 4.2 or 5.0 STANDARD_SDKs, you might become a bit frustrated when you realize they are missing many basic things like the Windows CE SIP APIs. (something that has been available for CE since 1.01 in 1997). But if you don't care about using the latest native CE kernel features and still want to use a newer IDE like VS2005/VS2008, the CE 5.0 STANDARD_SDK should be enough if you are careful. Though, I usually install things like eMbedded Visual C++ 3.0 and 4.0 along with all the Pocket PC and Handheld PC SDKs just in case I need a header or lib file that one or the other is missing.
The following MS SDKs can target x86:
-eVC3
Pocket PC 2002
Smartphone 2002
Handheld PC 2000
-eVC4
Pocket PC 2003
Smartphone 2003
STANDARDSDK_400
STANDARDSDK_401
STANDARDSDK_420
STANDARDSDK_500
-VS2005/2008
STANDARDSDK_500
Another useful x86 SDK I've found is the one for the Allegro CE/DOS Field PC:
http://www.junipersys.com/Juniper-Systems/support/Developers/Allegro-Field-PC/Allegro-CX
Here are some download links to many of the CE SDKs and compilers that were released over the years:
Here are some links to download some of the tools I've mentioned:
http://www.hpcfactor.com/developer/
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/search.aspx?q=embedded visual tools
You will need SP4 for eMbedded Visual C++ 4.0 if you wish to use newer SDKs with it.
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/search.aspx?q=pocket pc sdk
Ummm... maybe you missed the part where this is WP7 forum, and the OP is trying to run native code on the WP7 emulator... I can tell from your post that you're not terribly familiar with WP7 development, so here's a few salient points:
Compiling to a .exe is a waste of time. WP7 won't run foreign EXEs, at all, unless you make some pretty low-level changes that aren't possible on the emulator (see "full-unlock" custom ROMs). You have to write a managed app (which compiles to a DLL hosted inside a low-privilege EXE that's built into the system) and a COM library and use the InteropServices ComBridge API. So far we haven't even gotten P/Invoke to work.
WP7, especially Mango, uses a limited set of native APIs and the APIs have changed somewhat in the last decade or so. They aren't supposed to be available to third-party devs at all, so any backward compatibility is basically a convenient accident. Targeting Smartphone 2003 *might* work, but then, it might not. Even a number of WinMo 6.5 APIs aren't available or don't work.
Since it appears that the OP is just going for a demo project, he or she probably is a lot less interested in getting the most powerful APIs, and is probably hoping for something closer to invoking a MessageBox from native code.
All that said, however, it's true that there are WinCE SDKs which can build native x86 code. I'd tend to suggest using the CE6 or CE7 Platform Builders, since they're the most recent (WP7 is somewhere between the two), but there are other options. You probably want to follow the guide as much as possible, including things like using ATL, as it makes writing a COM library a lot easier and that's the best way we currently know for executing native code in WP7.