some serious questions about arthemis and wm5 - General Questions and Answers

i have an artemis p3300 (or xda III in other countries) for over 1 month now.
some things i like and i dislike.
pro : -scrollbal and ring are incredible
-backlight and screen is great
-wifi, gprs, mobile part en gps works perfect
-slim case
-sound is incredible loud.
cons: -omap processor is a bit slow (even overclocked at 252) for multimedia
like streaming video or gaming
- to little ram memory..there is not much left after installing the default
applications so forget skinning
so overal for a business user, it,s the perfect phone. For a home user who wants to modifie
everything or loves the multimedia it;s to slow and to little ram to give comfort.
To give you an idea..my previous phone is a axim x5 advanced and it's still faster then this phone.
questions?
- can windows messenger get the ppc out of his sleep like the mobile part of the phone can?
- Why is wifi falling out when i put the phone in sleep?
- when wifi fails (to far from wifirouter) it goes automaticly to gprs. I don;t want that and i just want wifi to keep trying a connection. Now i switch the mobile part off when i surf the net.Any solutions?
- My old dell also has a wificard in it..can i communicate between the two devices over wifi..and what are the possibilities that i could do (exemple: using it as intercom or viewing the camera live stream from the artemis?)
please give me your ideas or solutions.
thanks in advance

Ok here are some answers:
First, I think you are confusing RAM and flash here. In WM 5 the apps are not installed in RAM but on flash (internal storage). If you don't have enough of that (nobody does) get a storage card (2GB should do fine).
As for RAM, according to specs it has 64MB same as all the devices in the last couple of years (except a few cheap ones with 32MB).
The biggest problem with skinning is not so much memory as CPU. Even if I had a 520MHz device (like say Asus 525) I still would not use it.
- As for messenger if you are logged on you will hear a beep when someone sends you a message but the screen doesn't come on. There may be a setting for this, I haven't checked.
- This is default for HTC devices as far as I've seen. Standby switches WiFi off (I guess to conserve power).
- You can put your WiFi connection and GPRS connection under different networks and switch through Settings->Connections->Connections->Advanced->Network selection. Don't know any good solution for this though.
- Generally PPCs cant establish an Ad-hock WiFi network. There are no server components on the devices. But I did see an app awhile ago that connects two devices by WiFi to create a intercom / walkie-talkie kind of thing. Don't remember the name.

thanks for the reply.
after clean installation and a few other small soft i need to install in the storage memory..i have 4.92 mb storage free and 24.29 mb program free.
on my dell i could free up more storage space with a slider but now it's inpossible cause there is no slider anymore in wm5?. And yes i have a 1 gig storage card voor most of the soft and offcourse tomtom. So when i want to install a bigger program (even on my microsdcard) it says i have not enough working space anymore.
So where is that slider? or how do i solve this.
and is there any soft so i could see whats installed in flash or other memory?
last question..i loved theme switcher from microsoft..but it works only half on wm5..are there new versions of it. The problem is when i go in the preferences of theme switcher it always scans my whole network of computers to finds tks files.
thanks

Have you been using the device on the internet? if so start the internet explorer program Meue/ Tools/ Options select the Memory Tab and select both the History and delete files buttons. Does this clear some memory for usage? - Mike

Mike..i did even better, I surf with opera and it's all installed on my memory card. I have installed memaid so i can see what's taken up so much memory, but i still have no idea where it is installed. Oke, i know bij names that most of it is installed on my memory card but thats all.

Related

New guy - just got an XDA Orbit.

Hi.
As you can guess my name's Pete.
I've just received an XDA orbit from O2. I've been fiddling with it for a good few hours now, and I have somequestions that I cannot find answers to in the (rather thick) user manual:
I want to completely disable the use of GPRS. Is there any way I can do this? On the phone the menus tell me I can download sattelite info for the GPS receiver (quickgps), either through GPRS or via the activesync connection. It's defaulting to the gprs and I don't want that. I want to use my home broadband connection to connect the phone to the internet, but it keeps trying to do it the other way round.
This is my first xda and I would appreciate any help or advice on this or general tips etc. If anyone has any questions they would like to ask me about this phone please feel free.
Pete.
Pete, Sorry, I can't really your question since I don't own this phone. I just wanted to ask you how does phone functionality compare with your previous phones?
Well since I've only owned conventional phones before I find the range of features quite breathtaking, but I can't compare it to other PDA-type devices not having any experience with them before. I've been using a Motorola V3 for the past 2 years, and though it's a tough phone the software sucks and the processor is very slow. The Orbit is much faster despite having to run a much more complicated operating system.
So far I'm very pleased with it, especially the size. It's by far the most compact PDA I've seen. Here it is alongside my own V3 and my daughter's W850i
Ok I've meneged to get it to work through the activesync by turning off advanced network services. Now I can update the GPS sattelite data through my broadband, and even use Internet Explorer.
I would still like to turn off GPRS completely though.
Orbit
Hi. I have just had a play with an Orbit, it is brilliant if I don’t mind saying.
I have used Palms and Psions before, but this is light years ahead.
Have a look at this site. http://www.4winmobile.com/viewtopic.php?p=42938
It provide a good over view, and some more links to see if there is any one else out there that can answers your question. After my current phones contract expires, end of Feb, I will get one. I can’t wait…
Cool - be aware that O2 will only ship the satnav software with £40 and above tariffs. Thanks for the link
I think that if you go to your settings menu and thenyour connections menu you can see the option to manage exisiting settings. in that option you can delete settings. without them it can't connect to GPRS. But back up your connection settings first. even if it means writing them down.
Also I'm not sure if the pocket pc will try to connect still and then give you a message that it failed to connect.
Yes the Orbit is nice - I wonder if Orange are going to supply it.
The HTC (manufacturer) name for this is Artemis - ask your questions the specific section of this forum as there should be a bunch of people hanging around in there who already have some experience of it.

GPRS/3G/HSDPA Data usage

How can I see the amount of data transferred with GPRS/3G/HSDPA-connections to my touch pro? I can find the call-durations but nothing for data.... strange because these devices are popular because the capability of mobile internet.
der_roedie said:
How can I see the amount of data transferred with GPRS/3G/HSDPA-connections to my touch pro? I can find the call-durations but nothing for data.... strange because these devices are popular because the capability of mobile internet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A quick search on Google (or your favourite search engine) would bring up the same results:
http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/products/gprsmonitor/glossary.html?en
I've found that offcourse :| But I wanted to know if it was build in WM.
You mean there is no way that WM collects this data??
on one of the cd's that came with your Touch Pro is a program called SPB GPRS monitor.
install this on your device and you'll end up with a small today screen item that shows the amount of data send/recieved (and more)
EDIT: never mind! you found it allready
but to awnser your question: no WM does not collect/store this data.
So very strange that WM does not incorporate such software into WM, i think a lot of users would benefit from it.
@XtremeXL: I've looked at the CD's which accompanied my TouchPro but I didn''t find the SBP GPRS program. on which cd it's located?
even people on normal computers with limited mb's a months dont get such features on windows for pc's as far as i know
but you could mail ms about a feature request
Rudegar said:
even people on normal computers with limited mb's a months dont get such features on windows for pc's as far as i know
but you could mail ms about a feature request
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, I'm sure they'll get right on it... Haha
is that app just a trial thats on disc or is it a full version?
der_roedie said:
@XtremeXL: I've looked at the CD's which accompanied my TouchPro but I didn''t find the SBP GPRS program. on which cd it's located?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry you're right! the program is not on the cd
i used to have a HTC TyTn II and it was located on that cd (unfortunatly
I sold it)
but i've send you a PM!
gprs monitor that came with the TyTn II will not install on the touch pro - just incase you were thinking down those lines. The application is "locked" to the TYTN II only.
The only other app that i have found with a gprs counter is pocketmax phonealarm which provides amany other features such as profile switching etc. Yu will need to use secondtoday application in order to run it if you are using the vanilla interface.
GPRS monitor increases CPU processing time by an average of 5% when no data connection is active. When i tried it on both my TYTN II and TOuch Pro, the CPU would consistantly change from 99% to around 88 - 95% due to GPRS Monitor.
Battery Status, also provides a free alternative.
Ta
Dave
I have always found spb's GPRS minitor to slow down the data connection speed itself, so don't bother with it. Being on t-mobile's web'n'walk plus (3Gb cap) means you dont need to worry about excess data charges anyway.
billu said:
I have always found spb's GPRS minitor to slow down the data connection speed itself, so don't bother with it. Being on t-mobile's web'n'walk plus (3Gb cap) means you dont need to worry about excess data charges anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha can imagine that you do not worry about data transfer. I need to coop with 25 Mb per month
not workin' on my Raphael
Hi all!
I downloaded the latest version of GPRS Traffic Monitor this weekend and installed the cab-file on the phone (succefully). But I'm experiencing bis problems with that piece of software.
It's not possible to enable GPRS Monitor on the HomeScreen. I set the little hook, but when I return to the homescreem it's not displayed. When I go back and look at the homescreen settings, it's not enabled anymore. Looks like it's disable anytime I close the homescreen settings dialog.
Even when running GPRS Monitor without the homescreen plugin, no data transfers are monitored at all. (Don't know if this is based on the homescreen issue.)
I'm using the stock rom shiped by O2 Germany.
Any suggestions?
Tkx in advance.
Ragards
Chris
a short update:The traffic is counted when I enable "connection monitoring" for the connection called "o2 internet gprs". But what if data is transfered over one of the other connections as "o2 surf"? And is there a way to make sure that GPRS Monitor is allways started without having it on my homescreen? (As i just notice you can run TF3D only as stand alone homescreen.)
Is many people using that battery status program (now called HomeScreen++)? Am i right in thinking thats a pluggin for the today screen but not the manilla/touchflow interface?
My boss has just received a HTC touch pro, the first CD with outlook / ActiveSync worked ok. But the second CD doesnt work in any pc's i've tried it in, would that have SPB gprs Monitor and Backup (like my diamond did)?
Anyone know if they are available to download? From above or another post it said was locked per device, so if its licensed for touch pro only then i guess i'm ok to acquire it, if it should of came on cd anyway.
Nephilim667 said:
Hi all!
I downloaded the latest version of GPRS Traffic Monitor this weekend and installed the cab-file on the phone (succefully). But I'm experiencing bis problems with that piece of software.
It's not possible to enable GPRS Monitor on the HomeScreen. I set the little hook, but when I return to the homescreem it's not displayed. When I go back and look at the homescreen settings, it's not enabled anymore. Looks like it's disable anytime I close the homescreen settings dialog.
Even when running GPRS Monitor without the homescreen plugin, no data transfers are monitored at all. (Don't know if this is based on the homescreen issue.)
I'm using the stock rom shiped by O2 Germany.
Any suggestions?
Tkx in advance.
Ragards
Chris
a short update:The traffic is counted when I enable "connection monitoring" for the connection called "o2 internet gprs". But what if data is transfered over one of the other connections as "o2 surf"? And is there a way to make sure that GPRS Monitor is allways started without having it on my homescreen? (As i just notice you can run TF3D only as stand alone homescreen.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if you mean the task bar icon it is situated at the top of the screen and you can move the icon about using the slider situated in the info tab in the options
Nephilim667 said:
Hi all!
a short update:The traffic is counted when I enable "connection monitoring" for the connection called "o2 internet gprs". But what if data is transfered over one of the other connections as "o2 surf"? And is there a way to make sure that GPRS Monitor is allways started without having it on my homescreen? (As i just notice you can run TF3D only as stand alone homescreen.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because TF3D is taking over your homescreen, the plugins selected to display on the today-screen are not displayed until you deselect TF3D. GPRS-monitor is always started when installed, you do not have to start it manually before opening a connection to monitor the usage.
If you want to monitor different connections you will need to set these up using different profiles in GPRS-monitor. One profile for each connection. Then the program should monitor all different types of traffic.
I have 3 different connections in my TP but I only use one of them, the rest is disabled with NODATA-cab. I haven't had any problems with these disabled connections. So you might want to give that a try too.

A few questions

Hi,
As you can see im pretty new to the polaris and i have been seeking a few answer for a few hours and can't seem to find an answer to a few of them,
So i hope some of you might be able to answer these for me.
1) I would only like to use internet through WIFI, so to prevent a huge phone bill i would like to disable gprs (this is the only internet option next to wifi right?)
I tried an application called NoData but it crashes on startup.
2) These are spb shell related: With spb 3 my phone doesn't go into standby (the screen turns off to save battery) also my scroll bars don't function anymore (this doesn't really bother me though)
3) Speed and memory, will using less memory speed up my device? As i see it memory will only reduce performance when it really low (usually i am at 50% usage)
Thanks allot for reading.
1) Advanced Config from here http://www.touchxperience.com/en/advanced-configuration-tool/downloads.html
Go to menu => more settings => connections Then disable the ones you dont want (all in your case)​
2) No idea whats going on there sorry
3) Less memory used will mean faster. The main thing that slows it down is background applications running (using memory and cpu). So if you dont need something open then shut it. Thats pretty much it.
Hope its helpful!
menu => more settings => connections is empty does that mean i safe from huge bills?
The thing with my memory i have nothing running and i am at 50% so i was thinking of possibly switching to a light rom if that would matter (I just like the tools full comes with)
Thanks for your answers!
http://www.modaco.com/content/pocket-pc-software/246171/new-free-utility-nodata/
See above link. The tiny program "No Data" does what you seek.
Scalee said:
1) I would only like to use internet through WIFI, so to prevent a huge phone bill i would like to disable gprs (this is the only internet option next to wifi right?)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm... there could be a bit of problem... I'm connecting trough all types of connection: EDGE, GPRS, HSDPA, WiFi...
Altough, I'm not sure does EDGE connection work if you don't have data plan...
andbertina said:
http://www.modaco.com/content/pocket-pc-software/246171/new-free-utility-nodata/
See above link. The tiny program "No Data" does what you seek.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you read my post, you would see i tried No Data but it crashes when i start it Nullrefence exception.
Maybe i could just ask this, i like the idea of footprint when i start it asks if it can use google location service.
Now from working with this i know that google can either query using CellID (which is free) or using the internet well i don't really want to use internet for every footprint or every weather update that is not wifi you see
If there are no connections then i would say that you cannot connect to whatever mobile internet point. If you dont mind having a small charge try it once and see then you can be sure that it will not have an unwanted connection.
On the front of light vs full probably a little difference but really there wont be huge differences i think.
@Bodisson yeh edge will still work without a data plan but it will eat your money for breakfast
chris10230 said:
If there are no connections then i would say that you cannot connect to whatever mobile internet point. If you dont mind having a small charge try it once and see then you can be sure that it will not have an unwanted connection.
On the front of light vs full probably a little difference but really there wont be huge differences i think.
@Bodisson yeh edge will still work without a data plan but it will eat your money for breakfast
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You where right, i tried to weather update nothing, i tried footprints and then to connect to googlemaps it crashed.
Guess im safe

Some help for making the droid work

I have a POLA100 with windows mobile 6.1 (anime rom 2.0 french) and android installed on ext2 partitions on my SD card.
I'm having heavy troubles making all the thing work.
When I install with polymod rom (2.1g) almost everything is working (exept camera for example) event wifi, but I can't install apps with the market because of "not enough space" ... wait a second, each ext2 partition is 1GB ...
When I install with an other rom, I can't have wifi (I don't use any data connection), so it isn't really usefull ...
And I don't want to remove windows mobile, cause windows allows me to use all of the capabilities of the phone (camera ...)
Is there any way to get my android market to work properly ?
ReMix3D said:
I have a POLA100 with windows mobile 6.1 (anime rom 2.0 french) and android installed on ext2 partitions on my SD card.
I'm having heavy troubles making all the thing work.
When I install with polymod rom (2.1g) almost everything is working (exept camera for example) event wifi, but I can't install apps with the market because of "not enough space" ... wait a second, each ext2 partition is 1GB ...
When I install with an other rom, I can't have wifi (I don't use any data connection), so it isn't really usefull ...
And I don't want to remove windows mobile, cause windows allows me to use all of the capabilities of the phone (camera ...)
Is there any way to get my android market to work properly ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look here...post 175...this work
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=651856&page=18
thanks to SuperJMN
Thanks
In fact yes, that works I just tried it yepee
But, so the the eclair builds are not working on a pola100 ?
So, no eclair build on pola100 ?
And for the warm donut, it looks like the camera definition is lower then on WinMo, i.e : with the barcode scanner, it's all blury and the phone can't scan a 2D barcode.
Normal ?
New day, new problems.
I don't know why, but since yesteray I have heavy battery bugs.
I.E : the battery is going down very quick within android (50% in 2h) with almost nothing activated (no wifi/BT, no gps, no data connection, no sync and apps killed with task killer), and when I plug a usb cable, it doesn't charge.
Can somebody please help me ?
ReMix3D said:
New day, new problems.
I don't know why, but since yesteray I have heavy battery bugs.
I.E : the battery is going down very quick within android (50% in 2h) with almost nothing activated (no wifi/BT, no gps, no data connection, no sync and apps killed with task killer), and when I plug a usb cable, it doesn't charge.
Can somebody please help me ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
don´t know why...but if i activate wifi...and deactivacte....i can charge
ReMix3D said:
So, no eclair build on pola100 ?
And for the warm donut, it looks like the camera definition is lower then on WinMo, i.e : with the barcode scanner, it's all blury and the phone can't scan a 2D barcode.
Normal ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if you are in the barcode scanner...please rotate the middle wheel for make it sharper...
Thanks Alexander for the camera fix
For the battery, I haven't tried your method, but I note it in my mind. I restarded on WinMo, where the wifi was activated, I de-activated it and run haret to reboot on android. Now the battery is charging.
I'll check if it drops down quick again.
I'm looking at the battery info, the average temperature of my battery is 35°C, normal ?
Well, I think I found the problem : I often run TaskKiller to reduce the charge on the processor, but it kills the battery update service, I just had to except it, now I know when it is charging.
But anyway, it android seems to use more battery then WinMo, normal ?
Hello, me again ! ^^
I was searching on my phone an option to enable auto-completion when writing.
Well, it works, but only for English ... and I'm French.
It seams that I don't have the French dictionary (not bundled in warm donut ?)
Is there a way to installer the French word dictionary on the phone, or must I absolutely use one of the non-free keyboard available on the android market ?
I've also seen that the HTC-IME keyboard looks pretty cool, but there is no version available for our phone, is there ?
[EDIT] I just tried AnySoftKeyboard, with includes a French dictionary, nice ! But for the HTC-IME ?
Htc ime...go with every language but it´s a long way....
Start....:
Installation Instructions
1. Install both HTC_IME.apk and Clicker.apk.
2. Rename/remove the file /system/lib/libt9.so (I suggest renaming to libt9bk.so). You need root permissions to do this (the program Root Explorer works great.)
3. Menu -> Settings -> Locale & text. Enable 'Touch Input'.
4. Go to a text field and long-hold until a menu pops up.
5. Select 'Input Method' and then 'Touch Input'
1.1 Download the latest htc ime from here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=567294
or here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=661525
2.1 make the system root/write access to change the name of libt9
- open terminal
- type "su"
- type "mount -o remount,rw /system"
... and then I could rename the file w/ Root Explorer (must be root explorer..i think)
3.1 change the language: look here:
http://ostebaronen.dk/changing-htc_ime-language-to-danish/
a bit easier: change to htc ime...go to sms and long press on the input text...now a menu come and you can change....
go in a explorer to: data/data/com.htc.android.htcime/shared_prefs/com.htc.android.htcime_preferences.xml (now visible)--and copy it to sd card...
open the xml and change the language code (like in the link)....copy it over the old one....
please do not change the lang setting in text input settings...(you don´t see a lang in this box now)
i think it was all
edit: for the correct view: change to 120 dpi....and take my corrected dialer:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=676102
Now it´s all...i hope
Grah, I killed android.
I wanted to change the dpi to 120 with rogue tools, but It did something wrong and the density got to 160...
I searched on the forum and found a androidupdate for 120 with working wifi, set it and ... no more android boot ... Oo
Since then I tester many android update for 110 or 120 dpi with or without wifi, and I never rebooted...
I guess I'll have to install android again.
For further crashes like this, is there a way to create a backup of the system ? .... hum since I'm on a ext2 partition on the sd card, maybe just copy the file to my pc ?
[EDIT] Since I'm going to reinstall the whole thing, I saw that on Myn's Warm Donut main page there is a 480*320 version downloadable, but it can't work on our phone, can it ?
Sorry Alexander, i'm here again.
1st, I could not use the HTC IME cause I can't do this :
2. Rename/remove the file /system/lib/libt9.so (I suggest renaming to libt9bk.so). You need root permissions to do this (the program Root Explorer works great.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I cant set the folder /system/lib to read/write with Root Explorer, so can't delete the file ... And can't test the keyboard.
2nd, I used this TOPIC to boost the sensitivity of the screen on WinMo and it gets realy more reactive, is there a similar fix on Android ?
You need to use a terminal ie better terminal to make the filesysytem read/write
su "make's you super user"
mount -o remount,rw /system "makes filesystem read write"
you can use Root Explorer to rename now "the safe way" or
rm /system/lib/libt9.so "removes file"
thanks, it's working now !
Sorry, here I am again.
Recently I lost the data connection on my phone, no more internet with edge (or 3g, is there a way to active/see what type of connection is used ?).
I tried rebooting the phone many time, activating and de-activating wifi, bluetooth, airplane mode, nothing.
I saw a "modem" application, where it seems I can disconnect and re-connect the data connection, I says "data already turned on" but there is nothing to do ...
Any idea (again) ?
Can somebody help me ? I tried by changing the connection configuration in wimno before launching harret, activating auto 3G, enabling or disabling the data connection, but nothing work, android doesn't connect anymore on data. The modem application says that data is turned on but i have no IP.
Please help.
ReMix3D said:
Sorry, here I am again.
Recently I lost the data connection on my phone, no more internet with edge (or 3g, is there a way to active/see what type of connection is used ?).
I tried rebooting the phone many time, activating and de-activating wifi, bluetooth, airplane mode, nothing.
I saw a "modem" application, where it seems I can disconnect and re-connect the data connection, I says "data already turned on" but there is nothing to do ...
Any idea (again) ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried APNDroid...? with this you can set data connecion on off...
just tried apndroid, with the widget on "On", mms "On", notifications "On", de-activate all apn "off", it doesn't change anything.
I tried to de-activate and re-activate the data with apndroid, but nothing.
Will I have to again re-install Android ?
Wow, I got it to work again, I had to re-create an apn with the correct configuration to make it work.
But anyway, thanks for all
[EDIT]Ow no, just one thing, I have the data icon with a "E", it means that i'm connected with EDGE (2G), no ? Is it possible to activate 3G ?
An other question, totally apart, is there a plan to port android 2.2 to polaris. Cause it seams that it is much faster than all other versions.

[Q] Software that filters Internet access with purpose of controling connection way

Hi guys,
I hope you can help me with this problem.
I have an HTC Desire phone with Android froyo system version.
I would like to know if there any option to control which application get access to the internet via wifi and which via 3g DATA?
I have low amount of 3g network plan (30 Mb) and i have widgets and programs that updating constantly.
when i'm connected via wifi it's does not bother me but when i'm off the wifi network and i need internet access for surfing, waze or other small things, the other widgets are hogging my 30 Mb very fast.
i'm afraid that unlike the situation with my Nokia N97, with the desire my 3g plan will not be enough for the all month.
i'm using toggle data widget that helps me to control when and for how much time the 3g network is up.
as i've mentioned my previous phone was Nokia N97 and even though it was a useless piece of plastic I could control this option.
with the desire it seems that the 3g internet dreins my battary and eating my 30 Mb plan.
and another thing, is anyone experiencing problems with waze?
it worked fine on N97, but the desire crushing down with it and sometimes it take me 15 minutes to find gps signal.
thank you for the answers.
rel.
Welcome.
There's an app called TrafficStat that may be useful to you http://www.appbrain.com/app/com.trafficstats
Also, at least on my EVO, you can shut off the the 3G/4G data by holding power and tapping Mobile network.
Post back when you find something that works.
Good luck!
Matt
DroidWall also allows you to limit app access to wifi/3g. Not sure if it works with froyo though?

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