Related
Introduction
I have not seen much talk about security in XDA, and not at all on Neo Section.
SO here's just one informative link talking about using and developing apps and security risks involved
http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/25921/?mod=related
Any bug in software could potentially be used as a security loophole to gain access to private information, spy on you, get your credit card info(should you do such things on phone).
What is kind of unsettling is that everyone seems fine with modding, tweaking, developing and using those ROMs made in XDA without worrying if there could be that kind of bug in your made or used ROM.
You don't need a malicious app only to have risks. Most people use Windows so they should know that it is OP systems bugs and vulnerabilities that allow for unwanted access to your files, data, etc.
Android itself is having very non-foolproof security system. All apps on unrooted phone are in sandbox. That's no security measure at all. It doesn't limit app from stealing your private info at all, it only cant delete the whole ROM. That's just idiotic security system, for it is the only thing beside encrypting shut off phone on 3.0 and 4.0. So that means Android on it's own has no security measures while it's working. Even Windows has... some... but not too much... so you could pay for antivirus and antispyware software ofc.
It has always been the goal of big corporations to make money from insecurity, be they software developers, arms dealers and you name it. They all benefit from insecurities existing. Same is with Google and it's Android. But the good news is that we the users can modify Android. We could all say "Au revoir security bugs and loopholes!" if we would care about developing ROMs designed to make Android more secure... alas that's not happening yet!
Overview of Linux/Android security issues.
It's a short condensed description just to get you interested in the topic. There's lots of material on net, you only need to search, read, watch videos.
Linux becomes more vulnerable with more applications with different permissions installed. Same is true for Android.
Say your Phone Exporer has root access, that means it has root access to whole Android. To remove unnecessary risks, this app's root access should be limited to only most necessary functions it needs to operate.
Currently for Android there is no such solution. For Linux there is Apparmor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppArmor
Total root access is obvious vulnerability, but it is at least known one. Let's look at possibility of apps having hidden permissions and what that could mean to you.
Blade Buddy from Market.
On market it does not list permission to "Unique Device ID"(IMEI for GSM and MEID; ESN for CDMA) for free nor for paid version.
That means the author of BB has left the code from free version in paid one. This permission is used by ads to track you. It's not necessary code for ads, but it helps the dev know who clicked on the add and generated him some money. To see your money generating zombie empire stretch across the whole globe.... quite a thrill, isn't it?
So it's a latent code, with no benefit to user and an exploit only calling to be abused.
Unique Device ID allows you to be tracked on net and also where you are physically. GPS is just one way to find you, police for example have scanners to locate your devices physical location by the IMEI code. You can count on the "bad guys" having this technology as well, for it's quite a tool for burglars and other criminals.
The risks of your home being marked as the next dungeon to be looted by some raiders, I mean criminals(or perhaps WoW players sleepwalking and sleepraiding?) or getting your ID and bank details stolen by trojan/hacker is random. Yet the threat would not exist without apps having so flagrant hidden permissions.
Next app with ludicrous permissions
Brightest Flashlight
It does list many permissions, among them "Hardware controls - take pictures and videos ". No, it does not need a permission to take photos through cameras to operate the flashlight. But it's fun nonetheless for the dev to see his trusty peasants, or maybe he just likes to observe people like some watch fish in aquarium or hamsters in cage( "Look at that dork!", "You're one ugly m...f...er","ummm a couple kissing in dark with ma flashlight, what are they searching?", "what's that you eat, mr Korean, brains?" "hey show me that document again.")
You don't even need to run the app yourself. It can be triggered by hacker on background and take a snapshot of you.
On top of this little needless permission it has following hidden permissions:
1. Unique IMSI, read about here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSI
2. MCC+MNC (CDMA)
3. Unique Devide ID
4. Cell Tower Name.
That's a lot of needless permissions for flashlight, these are there just to track you the app user and have nothing to do with your comfortable use of the app.
These are just 2 apps with totally needless permissions for their intended functioning. If you don't want your Windows and Linux have such security holes then why do you want your Android have them?! You don't want, that's the point and these apps would not be so popular if people would really know and care about their phone being secure.
It can be stated for sure that above exemplified permissions not listed on market are more useful for pranksters, criminals or someone plainly looking-down-on-all-the-dumb-sheep and not at all for any legitimate, user or customer friendly purposes.
There are very few tools to check for security and privacy problems in apps. That gives a sense that majority of devs do not want Android to be secure and private, because Android is another revenue generating platform through Google ads business of course. Were people more educated about the matter then Google ads business would shrink down as well. A private and secure Android can't be tracked or annoyed with ads. No ads, no profit. No security therefore means profit. Unfortunately this lack of security can be exploited by anyone with criminal or malignant intentions so very easily.
The most important thing is to read the permissions before installing.
If you had read the article I linked. Those permissions don't matter anything really if stuff developers use doesn't reveal what it does, or developer itself doesn't disclose what the app does.
We can safely say that those permissions asked are just to make ordinary users of Android think that all is under their control.
I use Privacy Blocker app and it keeps finding app permissions that are not listed. Even that app doesn't find those permissions which Cyanogenmod permission manager shows. And I've sanitized all my apps, still I find my phone connecting to some odd servers while using certain paid and seemingly legit apps. I even found shapshots from front camera made by some app... and I am checking all permissions I can, even for those not listed.
What seems harmless but could reveal your IP address and potentially other data about you is... advertisements used by apps.
Ads can be far more than just a little annoyance that slows your device. Any file, picture loaded from some location in internet can be used to locate you.
I had a problem of getting phone call bills for calls lasting 10 to 20 secs that I never made after using a slew of market apps, flashlights, fun stuff, etc.
I paid two months for such calls trying to find out which app did it and still don't know which one it was. Skype(phone app has fake IP of Holland but actual connection goes to Moscow... oh come one what is this? Why such hiding? Like anyone would trust their phone's Skype connection stream through Moscow... no thank you! Then wonder still if the phone gets so slow and Skype call quality is so bad even over wifi while Windows Skype does just fine?), Brighest flashlight, some photo editors, and slew of other garbage I've already forgotten about cause I don't use any of it anymore.
First post updated
How about the new 4.3 update..in includes some security and privacy control..will this thing prevent you had mentioned?
Is there any way to reactivate this post? maybe start working on a security enhanced android ROM? I'm agree, Security does matter!
I wrote this On Xperia Neo General forum but it belongs to here much more.
Original thread at: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1447095
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Introduction
I have not seen much talk about security in XDA.
First, here's just one informative link talking about using and developing apps and security risks involved.
http://www.technologyreview.com/comp...1/?mod=related
Any bug in software could potentially be used as a security loophole to gain access to private information, spy on you, get your credit card info(should you do such things on phone).
What is kind of unsettling is that everyone seems fine with modding, tweaking, developing and using those ROMs made in XDA without worrying if there could be that kind of bug in your made or used ROM.
You don't need a malicious app only to have risks. Most people use Windows so they should know that it is OP systems bugs and vulnerabilities that allow for unwanted access to your files, data, etc.
Android itself is having very non-foolproof security system. All apps on unrooted phone are in sandbox. That's no security measure at all. It doesn't limit app from stealing your private info at all, it only cant delete the whole ROM. That's just idiotic security system, for it is the only thing beside encrypting shut off phone on 3.0 and 4.0. So that means Android on it's own has no security measures while it's working. Even Windows has... some... but not too much... so you could pay for antivirus and antispyware software ofc.
It has always been the goal of big corporations to make money from insecurity, be they software developers, arms dealers and you name it. They all benefit from insecurities existing. Same is with Google and it's Android. But the good news is that we the users can modify Android. We could all say "Au revoir security bugs and loopholes!" if we would care about developing ROMs designed to make Android more secure... alas that's not happening yet!
Overview of Linux/Android security issues.
It's a short condensed description just to get you interested in the topic. There's lots of material on net, you only need to search, read, watch videos.
Linux becomes more vulnerable with more applications with different permissions installed. Same is true for Android.
Say your Phone Exporer has root access, that means it has root access to whole Android. To remove unnecessary risks, this app's root access should be limited to only most necessary functions it needs to operate.
Currently for Android there is no such solution. For Linux there is Apparmor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppArmor
Total root access is obvious vulnerability, but it is at least known one. Let's look at possibility of apps having hidden permissions and what that could mean to you.
Blade Buddy from Market.
On market it does not list permission to "Unique Device ID"(IMEI for GSM and MEID; ESN for CDMA) for free nor for paid version.
That means the author of BB has left the code from free version in paid one. This permission is used by ads to track you. It's not necessary code for ads, but it helps the dev know who clicked on the add and generated him some money. To see your money generating zombie empire stretch across the whole globe.... quite a thrill, isn't it?
So it's a latent code, with no benefit to user and an exploit only calling to be abused.
Unique Device ID allows you to be tracked on net and also where you are physically. GPS is just one way to find you, police for example have scanners to locate your devices physical location by the IMEI code. You can count on the "bad guys" having this technology as well, for it's quite a tool for burglars and other criminals.
The risks of your home being marked as the next dungeon to be looted by some raiders, I mean criminals(or perhaps WoW players sleepwalking and sleepraiding?) or getting your ID and bank details stolen by trojan/hacker is random. Yet the threat would not exist without apps having so flagrant hidden permissions.
Next app with ludicrous permissions
Brightest Flashlight
It does list many permissions, among them "Hardware controls - take pictures and videos ". No, it does not need a permission to take photos through cameras to operate the flashlight. But it's fun nonetheless for the dev to see his trusty peasants, or maybe he just likes to observe people like some watch fish in aquarium or hamsters in cage( "Look at that dork!", "You're one ugly m...f...er","ummm a couple kissing in dark with ma flashlight, what are they searching?", "what's that you eat, mr Korean, brains?" "hey show me that document again.")
You don't even need to run the app yourself. It can be triggered by hacker on background and take a snapshot of you.
On top of this little needless permission it has following hidden permissions:
1. Unique IMSI, read about here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSI
2. MCC+MNC (CDMA)
3. Unique Devide ID
4. Cell Tower Name.
That's a lot of needless permissions for flashlight, these are there just to track you the app user and have nothing to do with your comfortable use of the app.
These are just 2 apps with totally needless permissions for their intended functioning. If you don't want your Windows and Linux have such security holes then why do you want your Android have them?! You don't want, that's the point and these apps would not be so popular if people would really know and care about their phone being secure.
It can be stated for sure that above exemplified permissions not listed on market are more useful for pranksters, criminals or someone plainly looking-down-on-all-the-dumb-sheep and not at all for any legitimate, user or customer friendly purposes.
There are very few tools to check for security and privacy problems in apps. That gives a sense that majority of devs do not want Android to be secure and private, because Android is another revenue generating platform through Google ads business of course. Were people more educated about the matter then Google ads business would shrink down as well. A private and secure Android can't be tracked or annoyed with ads. No ads, no profit. No security therefore means profit. Unfortunately this lack of security can be exploited by anyone with criminal or malignant intentions so very easily.
In my honest opinion. If someone keeps files like ccinfo they have to worry about being jacked then they deserve it. Should it happen. U shouldn't keep things on your phoney don't want the rest if the world to have
Sent from my Cyanocrack using Xparent Blue Tapatalk
You don't need to keep credit card info on phone, your using the credit card via Market or logging in to bank on phones browser is enough to intercept your credit card info. Your browser may show you xxxxxxxxxxxx+"last four digits only" but that doesn't mean the data to and from your device doesn't contain exact credit card number. It's encrypted, but that is merely a minor inconvenience for a hacker.
That is why being rooted is not advised to everyone. Mainly if they don't know what they are doing. Also customs roms are not for everyone. People flash them cause they think its cool and don't understand what they are doing. That is their problem. People should pay attention to the permissions that am app asks for. Common sense is the best protection. Main reason I don't do anything that deals with a bank on my phone.
Raoa said:
I have not seen much talk about security in XDA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's talk. It's just not on important yet, because the android device is not being marketed like an OS is with a personal computer.
However, the more we do on our phones, the more we'll realize it needs protection like firewalls. We catch a few like CIQ or the Wimax exploit, but it's going to get worse as we advance in our integration. We do need to start now before exploits get worse and stay ahead of the curve.
Until that time, 4G exploits and root kit programs will run freely on our devices that houses a lot of our personal information.
Plus, for some stupid reason, there are a lot of people who think Linux is immuned to viruses and security holes due to it's code transparency. Android is being mainstreamed. It will soon be a continuous target like other existing popular software programs and operating systems.
And that's why iOS is far superior even without widgets or live wallpapers.
Something to think about.thanks for posting.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
alex2792 said:
And that's why iOS is far superior even without widgets or live wallpapers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IOS and Mac are just as vulnerable, maybe even more so because of there popularity and the misconception that IOS is secure and does not need AntiVirus protection. Just last week i removed a nasty virus on a brand new Macbook Pro so that is not the way to think. You need to act as if there are security issues and just be really careful at what link you click and what email you open.
mattfox27 said:
IOS and Mac are just as vulnerable, maybe even more so because of there popularity and the misconception that IOS is secure and does not need AntiVirus protection. Just last week i removed a nasty virus on a brand new Macbook Pro so that is not the way to think. You need to act as if there are security issues and just be really careful at what link you click and what email you open.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
I am not an expert on iOS nor do I have any wish to even know or use it, because Apple buys from suppliers that emply child labor and sweatshops.
When Linux started spreading around people also thought it has no viruses.
Same story repeats with every software.
For each different OS it takes merely time before people start to notice that their OS has viruses/trojans/spyware too. That doesn't mean their OS is not targeted. You should expect all sorts of thieves to use any and all opportunities.
Secondly OS does not matter so much as the matter that your device is connected to wifi, data, bluetooth, et or not. IP addresses, MAC, IMEI, etc they all stay the same on every platform. No matter which OS, they all connect to wireless networks, cell network, data, bluetooth, etc which all have set standards.
So someone wanting to track, spy, get your private info simply has to intercept the data your device sends to any network. If you don't use strong encryption to send info via network then it is easy to "wiretap" you.
Why is there so much spam, viruses, spyware in internet today? It's because the software managing internet is not made to be so secure. If it were secure then it would also be more private and safer for people to chat over net.
So not only OS's need to be more secure, but the very internet itself needs to be reformed.
This relates to SOPA and PIPA. Had those two bills been passed the next step would have been logically to make changes to all networks so you'd be more easily trackable, hackable, "wiretappable". It's simply logical, cause SOPA, PIPA were so defunctly worded as if asking/preparing for a third bill to regulate the networks.
So we must make sure that internet will be reformed for the private users and not for greedy corporations. We would not need to buy anti-spyware, anti-virus software if the internet were truly engineered for the welfare of humanity.
You could use any OS, bugged or not and not be afraid of loosing your property or privacy if the internet would stop such acts before they could harm you, the individual who is supposed to truly and freely benefit from the services; either for free or for honest price, but now you are robbed and think it is good to pay the thieves.
Raoa said:
Android itself is having very non-foolproof security system. All apps on unrooted phone are in sandbox. That's no security measure at all. It doesn't limit app from stealing your private info at all, it only cant delete the whole ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please elaborate. The sandbox does prevent one app from reading the data of another, such as the CC info from the Market.
Also, are you sure Market sends the entire CC number? There's no reason for it to send it, the transaction is performed on Google's servers.
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you talking about viruses or malware? Please don't conflate the two.
Malware is easy to take care of - check the apps you're downloading for what permissions they want. It's as simple as that.
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just before xmas an iphone developer admitted to deliberately uploading malware in his ios app to show malware can easily affect iphone.
http://m.intomobile.com/2011/11/08/security-expert-sneaks-malware-into-iphone-app-store/
That was for normal iphones. For jailbroken ones there are more malware apps.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Raoa, your absolutely right.
I've had the exact same thought recently
Its like the overall view of the Android landscape is ridden from real security apps, for the simple purpose of have the platform as open as possible. And while this is good for developers and users of this and other serious forums, its also open for the "dark" communities as well.
I often ask myself, if the ROM devs onboard have these thoughts themselves, as in, what is my source of this modded apk, is is straight from the Market or from another dubious, (do I dare say chinese forum, just an example)
And how clean is my code really?
And is all mods just legit just cuz they are from here?
I love that we have so many ppl having a desire to mess around with the OS, but I miss, as you say, the talk about having a go on security as well.
I dont know, but I do think that awareness, as you initial post direct us to, should be raised, as a natural step for any serious dev and users in general on XDA, to be more aware, of the code.
Im on my first year as an Android user, and ofcourse did have to gain root on my splendid Sensation. Why?, cuz I needed the security tools requiring root.
Ask again, why? Cuz I came from Winblows 7, and know what a jungle software is, and that is is indeed exploitable, like hell, you might say.
And Im gladd I did gain s-off and root, cuz its really really needed fo youre just a little concerned about your privacy in, mails, sms, location, usage pattern, netbanking, dropobox deposits of your ****, some might even be work related and therefore hold more than just your own privacy.
And then there is what you mentioned, our devices unique ID's, the intent "app install referrer" to "plug" you into admob/google analyzer and so on.
I love one guy here, Treve, who made the HTC tool for scanning for ****, Logging Test Tool, and in version 10, he made it aware of admob/mobclix/analytics, and my god it find a lot...
So Treve, please, if you read this, just go on, as every version you make is getting finer and finer.
We could learn from this guy, and others here that got more code-insight.
What we CAN do as a community at the very least, is to share our knowledge and tips for securing our phones.
HOST filtering, code scanning of apks and so on. using AV's and firewalls and so on.
Right from the start I noticed that Android is not a clean OS, nor is its app market, and I noticed this cuz I have another splendid little Linux system at hand, Smoothwall Express with url filtering and proxy enabled
and My god is Android and its aps LEAKING!
Have a look in your urlfilters on a standalone firewall the step after your wireless android phone, and watch how much **** is going on.
Well, I can tell you for a start that I have added atleast 100 new domains to my custom urlfilter, besides the casual downloadable HOST filters around the net, like the ones found in AdblockPlus and so on. But after android, heh, you need more than just advertising filtering, that much I can say.
Just as an example, like those you mentioned, I have one too, that I was made aware of by Avast on my phone tonight, that ChompSMS was being flagged as malware/trojan.
I thought, **** man, why this crap, Im quite fund of Chomp, really.
So I thought, no, imma let more that Avast on my phone have a go.
So I File Expert dump the full apk, and uploaded it for a scan on virustotal, just for the sake of it. And whatta'ya know, ClamAV, GData, Kaspersky, NOD32, and Sophos flagged it as that same Plankton.G variant as my on-phone Avast.
Great, I thought (sarkasm intended)
I thought a bit further and picked up APK Multi-Tool, had a decompile and a content-scan for just "http" in is readable code.
12 different domains is mentioned so far, and I didnt even poke in all of its xml's, just the smali's
I know android is by a far stretch advertising born, and ofcuz the app devs have a right to earn their money, no doubt about that, and I gladly pay for the good ****, like most ppl here believeably do, but.. 12 different .com's mentioned in its code is a no go for me.
I have earlier used Privacy Blocker, and Privacy Inspector from XEUDOXUS in the market, to make permission scanning, beside using LBE/HOST/Avast, and I like those two aps, the Inspector one is free but only can scan.
The paid Blocker can "repair" as a feature, but its not maintained enuff, so it often fails to make installable apks, so not really worth it for me anymore, but as a free too, it can tell you more about those permissions you mentioned.
But enuff said from me for now, lets just collect and share our tips and tricks, ALSO for security, not just developing ROM and mod's and hacks, as thou they are fine, if not to say, so cool and great, but, we need to be secure too.
Please do not polute the discussion with IOS vs Android and what not, cuz thats not the purpose of it, even thou it definitly concerns (g)A(r)pple products too.
Sincerely, Omnius
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Iphones can get viruses they come through SMS's and other sources not as bad as android apple keeps there market much more under control, but everything is vulnerable i work in a security team for a big corp and believe me nothing is safe.
Check these articles out i just found them on google.
I remember a while ago maybe a year or so there was a huge security hole in IOS5 and Mac waited a long time to tell the public and release a patch. The one major problem with Apple is when there are security threats they really try to keep it hush...Iphone's OS is tight but not totally secure. Its not viruses either its moslty just malware that charges you tons of money in texting i saw once an iphone that turned into a bot and at midnight it would dial a 900 number and just sit there all night at like $20 bucks a minunte then disconnect when it felt the phone move.
http://www.mactrast.com/2010/07/iphone-virus-discovered-be-vigilant-and-seek-advice/
http://techfragments.com/news/982/Software/Apple_iPhone_Virus_Spreads_By_SMS_Messages.html
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
weedy2887 said:
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't be so fast to praise MIUI.
weedy2887 said:
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem is the "Average Joe" doesn't even look at those or doesn't know what they mean. I see so many viruses/malware/open security holes just because of user error its insane. Almost 90% of security breaches or problems originate from the end users not paying attention or just not knowing or caring. Also another thing i see so much when new clients call me with there servers melting down and all there banking info being stolen is they haven't installed any updates on there servers since they were set up 2-5 years ago. I worked for a large industrial supply company and all there servers running MS Server 2008 no updates had been installed and they were using AVG free on there main SQL server...INSANE LOL
Then theirs the users, "my computer was fine until my friend on facebook wanted my SS# and mothers maiden name and insisted i open his email attachment, now its acting weird what do you think is wrong?"
Brutal
what is the 4g exploit that you are talking about? And is it only with wimax or is lte part of it as well?
Oneiricl said:
Malware is easy to take care of - check the apps you're downloading for what permissions they want. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's absolutely amazing that people are willing to put up with something so ridiculous.
Sent from my SGH-I897
tl;dr I'm new, I'm not a very knowledgeable developer, I have an idea that I want your opinion about.
Heyo Peoples,
I'm new and I like to think a lot about cool new stuff with mobile devices (web, software, hardware, etc). I've been thinking a lot recently about how people like to use mobile devices, and how we might use them in the near future--thinking past what's being done now, and into what comes next.
I've been wondering for a while why there isn't an existing piece of functionality on mobile devices that allows a user complete control of the device and every piece of information on it. Imagine a GUI except instead of graphics, it's like interacting with a person. (aside: first person to say Siri should be shunned like an Amish girl who went to a movie theater).
Is it outrageous to say that you should be able to pick up your phone and have it find anything, from anytime in the past that you have done with or on it? I know that would take mountains of data, but is it silly? In it's most basic form, this would just be a search feature. In it's most eloquent form it could be an operating system. Imagine being able to ask your phone what you did last Wednesday, or maybe where you were. What if it could recall emails or documents based on date, time, location where you were when you wrote it, keyword, or contact, based on verbal interaction? What if it tracked data usage by application, or allowed you to measure and optimize system performance with a verbal command (ex. "Shut down all apps except for Google Maps" or "How much data am I using per minute").
Is it too early to start wishing for an interface like that computer on Paycheck (horrible movie with Ben Afleck) or Cortana in Halo? Is this type of interface impractical or implausible?
If you were to make something like this, would it have to be a new operating system built from the ground up, or could you develop an app to do this, or could you hack Android to do it? I welcome all of your feedback.
Lots of questions, and I have very few answers.
Jujubes said:
tl;dr I'm new, I'm not a very knowledgeable developer, I have an idea that I want your opinion about.
Heyo Peoples,
I'm new and I like to think a lot about cool new stuff with mobile devices (web, software, hardware, etc). I've been thinking a lot recently about how people like to use mobile devices, and how we might use them in the near future--thinking past what's being done now, and into what comes next.
I've been wondering for a while why there isn't an existing piece of functionality on mobile devices that allows a user complete control of the device and every piece of information on it. Imagine a GUI except instead of graphics, it's like interacting with a person. (aside: first person to say Siri should be shunned like an Amish girl who went to a movie theater).
Is it outrageous to say that you should be able to pick up your phone and have it find anything, from anytime in the past that you have done with or on it? I know that would take mountains of data, but is it silly? In it's most basic form, this would just be a search feature. In it's most eloquent form it could be an operating system. Imagine being able to ask your phone what you did last Wednesday, or maybe where you were. What if it could recall emails or documents based on date, time, location where you were when you wrote it, keyword, or contact, based on verbal interaction? What if it tracked data usage by application, or allowed you to measure and optimize system performance with a verbal command (ex. "Shut down all apps except for Google Maps" or "How much data am I using per minute").
Is it too early to start wishing for an interface like that computer on Paycheck (horrible movie with Ben Afleck) or Cortana in Halo? Is this type of interface impractical or implausible?
If you were to make something like this, would it have to be a new operating system built from the ground up, or could you develop an app to do this, or could you hack Android to do it? I welcome all of your feedback.
Lots of questions, and I have very few answers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is probably not as far off as it seems. The developers of "Utter" have come along way in the right direction. You should maybe approach them with your ideas. Not all of them of course . Save some for yourself.
One problem I see is semantics. "Shut down all apps except for Google Maps" sounds good - but do you really mean ALL apps ? The line that would be walked is one where the developer must train the program to not necessarily do what they ask, but do what they WANT. It gets trickier when you realise that some people who aren't your average users might want to test things and shut down an app (in this case) that an average user would never want shut, where they might mess up their phone beyond their ability to repair if they did.
I think speech is a great tool to interact, though I'm not going to be a person to use it. I don't think speech will ever become a default unless there are other technological advances that change how we interact with the world. It's annoying enough to hear someone gabbing loudly to another human on the phone, do we really want people gabbing AT their phones as a default interface ? I think privacy is a driving factor that will keep sound from being a major interface - perhaps it could work for in home applications, but out in public people may not want to announce to the world who they are calling, what they are looking for, or what site they're logging on to, et cetera. Until there's technology to make voice and sound less "public", I don't see this being the future of phones - it's more of a nice thing to have as an "extra" for when a person is comfortable using it.
But, hey, maybe we'll get used to wearing Google Glass and talking to ourselves all the time - or we'll get in-ear buds or implants where we can choose to hear the outside world or not. Just exploring the possibilities here.
I do think it's a big "outrageous" to have infinite backup. Just take a look at how much data companies like Amazon and Facebook acquire on a per-day basis. Think about how much data you use on a daily basis. I don't have the money or desire to be buying new HDDs every other week. Maybe in the future there will be a technological revolution that allows for mass amounts of data to be stored in even smaller spaces. But current technology in that regard is still very expensive and persnickety - read about high capacity SD cards and how fragile they can be and about data needing to be "refreshed" or they can become corrupt. There are lots of issues that make backing up everything you do impracticable.
And, again - privacy concerns. Do I really want my computer to know what I did last Wednesday and who I was with ? What if someone stole my computer or phone and had access to that information ? If we had the technology to do that, who's to say that current encryption would be "enough" - or that someone wouldn't go ahead and try to hack it anyway if they felt finding out basically everything about you was worth brute-forcing your phone or whatever they'd do in the future ? And have no password or a crappy one - even easier for them to know EVERYTHING about you, now.
Highly visual and talk-activated computers are absolutely great for games, movies, and TV. Why ? They function as narrative devices. They allow the actor to say or explain things they otherwise wouldn't have said out loud for personal, practical, or security reasons. They can become characters in their own right. People like those big screen computer displays where the characters are poking things all over and up and down - it looks cool. But not so cool is having your arms get tired from reaching up and around all the time. Not so cool is having to tell the computer out loud what kind of special images you want to search for when you have house-mates living in the next room over.
Just some thoughts. If you have other or counter ideas, go right on ahead.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am opening this discussion in order to not only receive some high-quality answers on the following questions, but also to learn what everyone does in order to ensure security and integrity of Apps on their phones (especially when working in environments where attacks are likely or possible due to intersting files on the phone or similar).
Here is my question: Let's suppose a phone is ROOTED, is locked with a Pattern, is updated daily, has TitaniumBackup installed, runs Trust as well as an Antivirus App and on top of that, installed Apps are monitored in a regular basis through TitaniumBackup. Is it even possible for law enforcements or hackers to install malware? If so, what would be necessary for them to do so? Physical access? Malformed Apps with matching signature? Other types of attacks (encouraging @He3556 the owner of Smartphone Attack Vector to chime in)?
Second question (hope @jcase can answer this): What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike? What do YOU personally do?
SecUpwN said:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am opening this discussion in order to not only receive some high-quality answers on the following questions, but also to learn what everyone does in order to ensure security and integrity of Apps on their phones (especially when working in environments where attacks are likely or possible due to intersting files on the phone or similar).
Here is my question: Let's suppose a phone is ROOTED, is locked with a Pattern, is updated daily, has TitaniumBackup installed, runs Trust as well as an Antivirus App and on top of that, installed Apps are monitored in a regular basis through TitaniumBackup. Is it even possible for law enforcements or hackers to install malware? If so, what would be necessary for them to do so? Physical access? Malformed Apps with matching signature? Other types of attacks (encouraging @He3556 the owner of Smartphone Attack Vector to chime in)?
Second question (hope @jcase can answer this): What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike? What do YOU personally do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pe rooted, with common rooted apps installed? Would be easy to compromise that phone, as you have already done it for them.
Use a stock firmware, chose a vendor with a recent history of good security (Samsung, nexus, motorola in that order imo), keep it up to date, reduce the number of apps you run, don't root it. Disabled usb debugging.
jcase said:
Pe rooted, with common rooted apps installed? Would be easy to compromise that phone, as you have already done it for them.
Use a stock firmware, chose a vendor with a recent history of good security (Samsung, nexus, motorola in that order imo), keep it up to date, reduce the number of apps you run, don't root it. Disabled usb debugging.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for answering. So that means, in short words, buy a phone and only update official stuff. How boring, I wouldn't be here on XDA then! But I get your point. I'm especially interested in the question of detection. If such agencies have installed anything that would leak data (and I'm sure it's fairly easy to do for them), how would they hide that specific App from the list of TitaniumBackup? Also, how would they trick the Trust Even Logger created by @Dark3n to not show any installation?
Most importantly though, is there some way of detecting such installations or manipulations afterwards?
There is growing so called "Zero-Day-Exploit" Industry, with names like vupen or FinFisher , the one who are working for the German Gov. but also for countries like Saudia Arabia and Iran. They know how to find exploits, nobody knows about (zero-day) and program trojans for all kinds of platforms. So antivirus software can't help here. And it is easy to bypass security if you know one of the bugs - and we know there are many of them in firmware, operating systems, plugins, frameworks and so on... Beside this "white" marked there is also a grey and black marked. So if you need to track your woman or steal information from other companies, you will find somebody with a tool for that, i suppose.
You would need a "Intrusion Detection Software" - sorry but this won't work for Smartphones, because there is a lot of calculation, data and energy needed - you find this special hardware in big data centers.
Do not root and do not install Apps you don't really need is still a good advice, specially when people don't know so much about all this.
Another way to sneak in is to compromise the users pc, that is (maybe) connected to the phone sometimes (work with iphone sync but also with android to change DNS and get SMS with e-tan's - you will find more info it in the media)
Or if you have the "power" you can can use the cloud services (iOS, Google, Windows or other 3rd party services) to steal user data (sms, pictures, GPS history...) or just let it sync the malware to the phone. So you don't have to break in directly.
What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike?
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Click to collapse
tomorrow i will have time, there are to many possibilities
Thanks for clarifying, @He3556!
Now I know that phones in general are hard to lock down for such agencies. Time to quote myself:
SecUpwN said:
Most importantly though, is there some way of detecting such installations or manipulations afterwards?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey @He3556, if you've been following security news the past weeks, this topic here is becoming more relevant with each revelation. Since the trojan-coding company FinFisher has highly likely been hacked and some cool whisteblowers are publishing very sensitve data like price lists and handbooks on their Twitter account GammaGroupPR, more details of their secret software FinSpy Mobile is being revealed. And this is exactly the type of software that I am talking about here in this thread. I want to know how users can protect themselves from crap like that. According to the video that has been leaked, It is being installed through a fake update, or even through messages via E-Mail to "please" install this "very important update":
And just to make everyone more curious, FinSpy Mobile has been leaked on Twitter! It obviously works for all operating systems, including Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile, and Symbian. Another trophy is source code of FinFly Web, which found its way the code hosting platform GitHub. It is designed to provide remote and covert infection of a Target System by using a wide range of web-based attacks. FinFly Web provides a point-and-click interface, enabling the Agent to easily create a custom infection code according to selected modules. Target Systems visiting a prepared website with the implemented infection code will be covertly infected with the configured software. Regarding FinSpy Mobile and similar software: How would law enforcements possibly attack a cautious member of XDA (or any other site)? I mean, people that have been in the field of flashing new ROMs, updating their firmware and recovery themselves, not installing strange APKs sent via E-Mail and controlling installed Apps through TitaniumBackup should be somewhat immune to such type of attacks, right?
It appears to me as if their software might work for the general masses, but highly-likely not on people like @jcase or other Android security-gurus. Since I linked you, I'd be very happy if you could expand on that a little. I am sure such companies might even have the possibility of messing with the baseband of a target phone through only knowing the phone number of a target. But I am really curious what their "standard procedure" is if they face a target with thorough Android knowledge, maybe even a security-enthusiastic Android developer. Wouldn't their only option be to manually manipulate the handset?
There are two methods to keep away all kinds of trojan and malware...
1. use a SIM with data connections only: There are SIM cards on the marked you can use in a USB Stick for Notebooks or tablets.
You won't have a cell phone number and can't receive SMS. You won't be able to use the circuit switched (GSM & UMTS-cs) part of your cell phone. For communication you have to use a VoIP provider - with Secure SIP and SRTP.
2. Web browser, Apps, e-mail client and all other connection must be use VPN.
But there is one more stepp to take.
The virtualization of all services and Apps you are using. This works like Team Viewer on a PC. The App is running on a cloud server while you only see the desktop of the remote controlled application. This technique is already used when you want to use flash with iOS device (photon, cloudbrowse, puffin and so on..)
More details about this you can find here: http://itwatch.info/Products/ReCAppS
But i am sure there are more projects about this out there...
He3556 said:
There are two methods to keep away all kinds of trojan and malware...
1. use a SIM with data connections only: There are SIM cards on the marked you can use in a USB Stick for Notebooks or tablets.
You won't have a cell phone number and can't receive SMS. You won't be able to use the circuit switched (GSM & UMTS-cs) part of your cell phone. For communication you have to use a VoIP provider - with Secure SIP and SRTP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know this works, but the only guy who is so insane and is already doing that is probably @InvaderX.
Honestly, what's the purpose of a phone if I can't receive SMS and call anyone without internet connection?
He3556 said:
2. Web browser, Apps, e-mail client and all other connection must be use VPN.
But there is one more stepp to take.
The virtualization of all services and Apps you are using. This works like Team Viewer on a PC. The App is running on a cloud server while you only see the desktop of the remote controlled application. This technique is already used when you want to use flash with iOS device (photon, cloudbrowse, puffin and so on..)
More details about this you can find here: http://itwatch.info/Products/ReCAppS
But i am sure there are more projects about this out there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better yet: Living under a rock should solve all these problems. Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed even when using TitaniumBackup and flashing a fresh ROM every month? From the things you mentioned as for protection, I highly doubt that I'll move that way. And no matter how hard I try, the bad guys (or, to put it in the wording of those companies: the agencies that are "protecting our freedom") will likely always find a way in - even if that means tapping the phone through listining in on my calls or deploying an IMSI-Catcher. But talking about this makes me wonder: It seems as if the probability is high that most of the time they are selling a fake update to the target. Is there a convenient way of knowing that stuff like FinSpy Mobile has been installed, where such agencies can't possibly tinker with any records of what was happening on the phone? I especially check the Trust - Event Logger by @Dark3n very often. Could they change such records? Is there a better App to warn about unauthorizes access or (hidden) App installation?
Trust is not a security app!
If an attacker has root, you can just alter the database of apps like Trust, which would be the easiest way.
There are probably also ways to alter the system so it does not broadcast certain events(which is how Trust monitors most things).
It is just not build to withstand such attacks.
SecUpwN said:
Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe? But there are much easier ways if it is not desired to target specific persons.
I'll brain storm a bit for you:
I would divide the attack vectors into those that work with root and those that don't.
Without root apps can still do plenty of malicious actions, including tracking your position or uploading all files on your sdcard (INTERNET;SDCARD;LOCATION permissions) etc.
If an attacker gains root permission he could install rootkits, modify existing apps, inject malicious code into dex files of installed apps etc.
Basicly do what the hell he wants.
While not using a rooted device would certainly make it more difficult to do malicious things, it's doesn't prevent it.
A normal app you install could still root your phone through vulnerabilities. It works the same way apps such as TowelRoot or ZergRush root your phone.
Downloading new apps that request root is also very dangerous ofc, once you pressed "grant", it's too late, anything could have been done. So be wary when trying out new root apps of devs you don't know/trust?
Abusing trust in existing apps is probably the biggest danger.
The most obvious danger here is downloading apps you usually trust but from unknown sources.
Sure there could be signature issues when updating over your current app, but what if you don't have it installed? I could also think about a few ways to inject malicious code without altering the signature (did not try, just a thought, might be impossible).
The issue is that you probably wouldn't even notice, as the compromised app retains it's original functionality.
Want a botnet?
Inject malicious code into a popular root up that is paid, crack it and upload it somewhere.
While this more dangerous (or worth for an attacker) with root apps, it's still viable for non root apps, just pick one that already aquires many permissions.
It's way too easy, people constantly underestimate the danger of this. It's not all about piracy it's bad, it's a barn door sized security hole.
A bit more difficult variant would be abusing known security holes in existing apps that can be root or nonroot apps, such as modifying files the other apps uses, such that it executes your malicious code for you, so some type of code injection. First thought would be looking for root apps that use scripts or binary files and then check the permissions on those files to see whether they are writeable.
Now those are all ways to target a broad mass of users.
If a single user is the target, it would be more difficult, but there are still plenty of options:
- MITM attacks at public hotspots,
- Pressuring developers of apps you use. What dev wouldn't implement a security hole into an app of his, if a guy in a black suit comes up and points a gun to his head? Well that escalated quickly... But with "secret courts" and all the **** that happens secretly sanctioned or is just done by some agencies because they are above the law, is it really such an impossible scenario? The ends justify the means? Do they?
- My favorite plan yet, making a popular app themselves that they know you will try
It is usually never impossible, just a matter of resources and whether its unfeasible to spend so many resources on that goal.
edit: So the best course of action? Don't install anything you don't trust. Don't trust the manufactor either? Install a custom ROM, but as those often use binary blobs for certain parts of the software, it's not really a 100% solution... There could also be compromising hardware built in, but now I'm really climing up the tinfoil tree, but as recents new story suggest that the NSA is intercepting hardware packets from manufactors such as cisco to modify them, what's really impossible?
TL;DR Best course of action that is feasible to adhere to is probably to just not install stuff one doesn't know or trust.
edit2: More specific answers to your questions.
You might be able to monitor files changes on an a system level, but if your attacker gains highlevel priviledges, what keeps him from changing the monitoring system?
SecUpwN said:
Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed even when using TitaniumBackup and flashing a fresh ROM every month?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does TiBu help prevent such injection? Flashing a new ROM would probably undo such changes, but what prevents "them" from just doing it again.
SecUpwN said:
And no matter how hard I try, the bad guys (or, to put it in the wording of those companies: the agencies that are "protecting our freedom") will likely always find a way in - even if that means tapping the phone through listining in on my calls or deploying an IMSI-Catcher.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the thing, with enough resources, there is always a way.
SecUpwN said:
It seems as if the probability is high that most of the time they are selling a fake update to the target.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly disguising as something legit is the cheapest way, "trojan horse".
SecUpwN said:
Is there a convenient way of knowing that stuff like FinSpy Mobile has been installed, where such agencies can't possibly tinker with any records of what was happening on the phone? I especially check the Trust - Event Logger by @Dark3n very often. Could they change such records? Is there a better App to warn about unauthorizes access or (hidden) App installation?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know any surefire way to detect this. The issue is that with enough priviledges (which can be gained without authorization, zero day exploits are worth a lot money to "agencies" as well as criminal organisations, though I'm no longer sure where the difference is), you can just clean up your track of malicious behavior.
Whoa, this has to be the longest answer I've received since registering here. Huge thanks! Grab a coffee..
Dark3n said:
Trust is not a security app!
If an attacker has root, you can just alter the database of apps like Trust, which would be the easiest way.
There are probably also ways to alter the system so it does not broadcast certain events(which is how Trust monitors most things).
It is just not build to withstand such attacks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, fair. Will keep it anyhow.
Dark3n said:
Maybe? But there are much easier ways if it is not desired to target specific persons.
I'll brain storm a bit for you:
I would divide the attack vectors into those that work with root and those that don't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to mention it here: An awesome site to see which attack vectors and vulnerabilities exist is Smartphone Attack Vektor by @He3556.
Dark3n said:
Without root apps can still do plenty of malicious actions, including tracking your position or uploading all files on your sdcard (INTERNET;SDCARD;LOCATION permissions) etc.
If an attacker gains root permission he could install rootkits, modify existing apps, inject malicious code into dex files of installed apps etc.
Basicly do what the hell he wants.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I get the point. Also like @jcase already pointed out: If we root, we pwn ourselves. And if we don't, too.
Dark3n said:
While not using a rooted device would certainly make it more difficult to do malicious things, it's doesn't prevent it.
A normal app you install could still root your phone through vulnerabilities. It works the same way apps such as TowelRoot or ZergRush root your phone.
Downloading new apps that request root is also very dangerous ofc, once you pressed "grant", it's too late, anything could have been done. So be wary when trying out new root apps of devs you don't know/trust?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only install trusted Applications.
Dark3n said:
Abusing trust in existing apps is probably the biggest danger.
The most obvious danger here is downloading apps you usually trust but from unknown sources.
Sure there could be signature issues when updating over your current app, but what if you don't have it installed? I could also think about a few ways to inject malicious code without altering the signature (did not try, just a thought, might be impossible).
The issue is that you probably wouldn't even notice, as the compromised app retains it's original functionality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guess if I use the F-Droid Store I should be pretty safe, right? But don't worry, I don't rely on it - as for me, smartphones are huge bugs with touchscreens. That is why I also built a phone signal blocking pouch for myself and friends. Further good recommendations can be found on the bottom of my GitHub.
Dark3n said:
Want a botnet?
Inject malicious code into a popular root up that is paid, crack it and upload it somewhere.
While this more dangerous (or worth for an attacker) with root apps, it's still viable for non root apps, just pick one that already aquires many permissions.
It's way too easy, people constantly underestimate the danger of this. It's not all about piracy it's bad, it's a barn door sized security hole.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, no. I already have two or three. Or maybe even four?
Dark3n said:
A bit more difficult variant would be abusing known security holes in existing apps that can be root or nonroot apps, such as modifying files the other apps uses, such that it executes your malicious code for you, so some type of code injection. First thought would be looking for root apps that use scripts or binary files and then check the permissions on those files to see whether they are writeable.
Now those are all ways to target a broad mass of users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good to know we've come to an end here. Reading all this makes me want to throw my phone out of the window.
Dark3n said:
If a single user is the target, it would be more difficult, but there are still plenty of options:
- MITM attacks at public hotspots,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I DON'T use public hotspots. Why? Because you can be almost certain that stuff will be logged and analyzed once you use that. Over here in my town, we've got a HUGE Apple Store. And guess what - FREE WIFI for everyone! Yeyyy... not.
- Pressuring developers of apps you use. What dev wouldn't implement a security hole into an app of his, if a guy in a black suit comes up and points a gun to his head? Well that escalated quickly... But with "secret courts" and all the **** that happens secretly sanctioned or is just done by some agencies because they are above the law, is it really such an impossible scenario? The ends justify the means? Do they?
You are right, threats against family, friends and relatives are a no-go. If I remember correctly, something similar had happened to my beloved XDA developer @idcrisis who invented CrossBreeder. He left development of his toolset because starnge things occured in his life which he linked to his development. Shortly after leaving his project, he proposed a new license: The Aware License. Hope this guy is still living a happy life, though. Added to the above security-issues: Trust NOONE! How come? Well, just read this stunning story I discovered yesterday where a US critical infrastructure company last year revealed that its star developer had outsourced his own job to a Chinese subcontractor and was spending all his work time playing around on the internet adn surfing cat videos. ^^
Dark3n said:
- My favorite plan yet, making a popular app themselves that they know you will try
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't quite get what you meanb by that. Please clarify, it sounds interesting.
Dark3n said:
It is usually never impossible, just a matter of resources and whether its unfeasible to spend so many resources on that goal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The way I see it: The only thing that we have no real access to, is the baseband. I am sure that these are full of backdoors and switches for agencies that they just need to trigger - just like the Samsung Galaxy Backdoor discovered by Replicant.
Dark3n said:
edit: So the best course of action? Don't install anything you don't trust. Don't trust the manufactor either? Install a custom ROM, but as those often use binary blobs for certain parts of the software, it's not really a 100% solution...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, I don't trust the manufacturer either. And I am SICK of bloatware! hence, I am a happy user of AOKP since several years - but regarding the binary blobs, I would certainly love to try out Replicant (sadly not yet available for the HTC One).
Dark3n said:
There could also be compromising hardware built in, but now I'm really climing up the tinfoil tree, but as recents new story suggest that the NSA is intercepting hardware packets from manufactors such as cisco to modify them, what's really impossible?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing is impossible, everything can be done. A wise man once said: Everything you can imagine, will happen.
Dark3n said:
TL;DR Best course of action that is feasible to adhere to is probably to just not install stuff one doesn't know or trust.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good advice, I already do follow that one. As already said, if I were a spy company, I'd just team up with manufacturers of basebands..
Dark3n said:
You might be able to monitor files changes on an a system level, but if your attacker gains highlevel priviledges, what keeps him from changing the monitoring system?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Highly-likely nothing. I already know that there is not much I can do to prevent them to get in, but at least I do want to detect them - and having such a detection mechanism raises the bar in disguising their actions even further - and who knows, maybe they're not interested anymore then?
Dark3n said:
How does TiBu help prevent such injection? Flashing a new ROM would probably undo such changes, but what prevents "them" from just doing it again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not much.
Dark3n said:
This is the thing, with enough resources, there is always a way.
Exactly disguising as something legit is the cheapest way, "trojan horse".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely right. But what I am really curious of: How do people from the security-community really protect their phones? Do you have friends that are using their phones to just communicate via VPN and VOIP, not sending SMS and never calling people? Perfect place for @InvaderX to chime in, he told me before to really do a combination of that approach.
Dark3n said:
I don't know any surefire way to detect this. The issue is that with enough priviledges (which can be gained without authorization, zero day exploits are worth a lot money to "agencies" as well as criminal organisations, though I'm no longer sure where the difference is), you can just clean up your track of malicious behavior.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sigh.. mobile phones are a total threat to humanity, I get it..
At least I am not the only one paranoid about this kind of thing. LOL
lostangelintx said:
At least I am not the only one paranoid about this kind of thing. LOL
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't have much to do with "Paranoia". The very reason you started to care about this, is because phones are in fact very insecure devices - most people just don't realize or care about it. Another very interesting thread I found lately: Android Security for Conscious Mind.
a tool against 0-day exploits
don't freak out to early - this tool is only for windows desktops.
But at least it shows how it could work for mobile devices, too.
It is called Enhanced Mitigation Experience Toolkit (EMET 5.0) ...is a utility that helps prevent vulnerabilities in software from being successfully exploited.
These technologies function as special protections and obstacles that an exploit author must defeat to exploit software vulnerabilities. These security mitigation technologies do not guarantee that vulnerabilities cannot be exploited. However, they work to make exploitation as difficult as possible to perform.
SSL/TLS certificate pinning - This feature is intended to detect (and stop, with EMET 5.0) man-in-the-middle attacks that are leveraging the public key infrastructure (PKI).
Ok, they do not guarantee 100% security - but who could? Even this software comes from Microsoft, it's still a good solution and closes the gap between anti-virus, firewall and keeping your software updated.
Here is a test from 2010 (EMET 2.0) http://www.rationallyparanoid.com/articles/emet-testing.html
And one of 2014 http://www.offensive-security.com/vulndev/disarming-enhanced-mitigation-experience-toolkit-emet/
Does anybody know a APP for Android, iOS, WP8 or BB?
Just a small side note:
In regard to device security vs. rooting.
There are essentially 2 schools of thought. On the one side we have those who believe we should trust the device manufacturers experience and knowledge to keep malware out of AOS, and you phone from spilling your data when stolen, which also means keeping users from rooting their devices, simply because they know security better, than the average user. (I think @jcase may be one of those, but he'd have to answer for himself.) On the other hand we have people like me, who firmly believe that the best way to keep your device secure is by being rooted, since we cannot trust anyone, especially large companies who scream "TRUST US". For us, we own the device and everything it does, and that your phone should not be able to send a single photon of radiation, without your permission. Then at least we have the choice to provide our own security by Firewalls, open source baseband, and encrypted phone calls etc. So no, this is not part of the majority of phone owners. But we think it should be. So who's right? Well, we're both right of course. What we need is to be able to make this choice at the time of purchase, and independent of the device you like. To be able to choose if you have a fully open device that you can secure on your own or if you like one that is claimed as secure, but you will never be able to check or control on your own. But unfortunately, this is not possible in most circumstances.
I trust neither the ODMs, nor the custom roms. However I KNOW the average custom rom is just as if not MORE vulnerable than current stock roms, add su into the mix and it is without a doubt more vulnerable. Show me a custom rom dev that claims he ships a secure firmware, and I'll show you someone ignorant of the facts. Ask most of them what CTS is, and they will look at you like you are referencing 18th century medical terms.
That is my stance. In regards to root making a device more vulnerable, I can back that statement time and time again. From key compromises of the superuser apps, to vulnerabilities in the app, to vulns in the su binaries, to vulns in apps that typical make su requests, to stupid users who will grant it to anyone. Having any access point to "root" makes turning a small vuln to a complete compromise relatively easy.
E:V:A said:
Just a small side note:
In regard to device security vs. rooting.
There are essentially 2 schools of thought. On the one side we have those who believe we should trust the device manufacturers experience and knowledge to keep malware out of AOS, and you phone from spilling your data when stolen, which also means keeping users from rooting their devices, simply because they know security better, than the average user. (I think @jcase may be one of those, but he'd have to answer for himself.) On the other hand we have people like me, who firmly believe that the best way to keep your device secure is by being rooted, since we cannot trust anyone, especially large companies who scream "TRUST US". For us, we own the device and everything it does, and that your phone should not be able to send a single photon of radiation, without your permission. Then at least we have the choice to provide our own security by Firewalls, open source baseband, and encrypted phone calls etc. So no, this is not part of the majority of phone owners. But we think it should be. So who's right? Well, we're both right of course. What we need is to be able to make this choice at the time of purchase, and independent of the device you like. To be able to choose if you have a fully open device that you can secure on your own or if you like one that is claimed as secure, but you will never be able to check or control on your own. But unfortunately, this is not possible in most circumstances.
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Click to collapse
@jcase : So I think we agree on that what you say, but from another perspective, we can ask ourselves whether or not a stupid user with root, can possibly endanger a smart user with root? I think this is not generally possible, apart from some automated DDOS attack, which would ultimately originate from a smart user with root, using the stupid user as a transport.
To what extent should ODM's be able to decide who is a smart root user and stupid root user? (And regardless their decision, why should we believe them?) There may not be an answer here, but the discussion is interesting also from a political point of view. How much should the "government" be responsible for a certain individual's action, regardless of their intelligence? Personally I think they're not, and should only provide security to prevent individuals from directly hurting each other, and not preventing them from hurting themselves, if they choose to do so.
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
stefeman said:
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
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Click to collapse
Let's put it this way.
In 6 years of heavy 24/7 PC use, my anti-virus have prevented me from a "possible" remote exploit exactly once, while having annoyed me with lengthy uninterruptible scans and ignoring my ignore settings about a 1000 times, due to adware and various other false positives. Then only god knows how many different countries governments are already present in my PC. Go figure. And yes, I have tweaked every possible setting and tried multiple well know AV's.
Forget AV's and get a good FW and with a well tuned host file, and well tuned common sense.
E:V:A said:
@jcase : So I think we agree on that what you say, but from another perspective, we can ask ourselves whether or not a stupid user with root, can possibly endanger a smart user with root? I think this is not generally possible, apart from some automated DDOS attack, which would ultimately originate from a smart user with root, using the stupid user as a transport.
To what extent should ODM's be able to decide who is a smart root user and stupid root user? (And regardless their decision, why should we believe them?) There may not be an answer here, but the discussion is interesting also from a political point of view. How much should the "government" be responsible for a certain individual's action, regardless of their intelligence? Personally I think they're not, and should only provide security to prevent individuals from directly hurting each other, and not preventing them from hurting themselves, if they choose to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really, I dont want to do this again, this conversation.
Most stupid people don't realize they are stupid, they assume they are smart. (We are all stupid in some regards).
I think I could endanger a user from root, pretty sure I can either screw the phone up, or possibly catch it on fire. If it had a sim in it, and was on the network I am certain I could make them regret ever rooting their device.
Here is a question, how many of you understand how these unlocks/exploits work?
I sometimes leave messages hidden in mine, and have only had ONE person reply to the hidden message, out of 100,000s of runs. People don't even know what they are running to gain root, let alone any idea what these "rom devs" do.
Open source is the answer right? Everyone can read the code, and everyone does! Thats why no backdoors or vulns have ever been in open source projects. Every open source project gets a line by line audit by a team of security professionals.</sarcasm>
I'll join back in when someone shows me a custom rom/open device that has the same or better security precautions taken by leading ODMs. Until then, it is generally just as easy or (generally) easier to abuse and exploit one of these custom roms floating around.
stefeman said:
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
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Click to collapse
Won't help a lick for anything originating from a government.
about root and privacy
Introduction:
nowadays android phones are much more controllable without root access, and bloatwares can be deleted or disabled without root permissions by using the android's settings app, or through the developers' ADB shell. and even firewalls like "Netguard" don't need root access nowadays in order to control the network, and there are so many other opensource apps like "Blokada" and "ublock" that don't require root anymore in order to block ads, YouTube Vanced to watch videos without ads... all of this was impossible to perform three or four years ago, so why still bother with rooting ?
about root:
Root is gaining super user permissions in linux, or being an administrator. you don't need me to mention how many years this super user wasted in order to be able to understand and to become an administrator, or super user.
what I'm trying to say if you don't know what you're doing while acquiring "Root" privileges on your phone, don't do it just for fun.
Root exposes the user to some higher risks even from the trusted play store apps.
"With great powers comes great responsibilities", if you can't assume total control of every aspect of your rooted phone (thousands of files) then don't root it.
and I'm not saying you should let everything to Google or even trust the google softwares, in fact I created a thread especially to limit their disrespectful or exaggerated behaviors by debloating and using firewalls.
real hackers or developers who understands how a mobile operating system works, and how hacking works, can hack a rooted phone much more easier than hacking a non rooted phone.
speaking for myself I can't fully control a rooted smartphone because there are thousands of files : which are written in different development languages, doing different tasks, and they have different dependencies..
and contrary to what some people think, using strong long passwords can't sometimes help, and installing an realtime antivirus protection can't sometimes detect a hacker intrusion (when your phone is being truly exploited and completely controlled by strangers)
I'm not only saying don't root if you aren't an android developer, but you should limit Google and your installed apps behaviors as well.
nothing is unbreakable, and backdoors exist within the google O.S and within google or the manufacturer apps or else, but a firewall can limit some of their behaviors.
a word of truth :
very few people can actually be a super user of a complicated mobile operating system such as android, but if you're one of them, then you already know more than all of this.
I hope this can help anyone, feel free to copy paste, modify and share on your website.
and feel free to comment, debate, saying thanks, or providing some more informations.
I just wanted to share this for anyone who is concerned by root's real life review, from a privacy oriented point of view.
....or another point of view is that unaccountable multinationals like Alphabet who own Google and companies like Samsung and Apple have no moral or ethical compass and are building up a long track record of trust-breaking behaviour that is only accelerating. Without root, you cannot remove or at least minimize the "telemetry" and "walled garden" that every new phone is crammed with. A small percentage of us refuse to be treated like a lamb being led to slaughter so root is absolutely necessary for privacy and security, not the other way around.....
jajk said:
..... Without root, you cannot remove or at least minimize the "telemetry" and "walled garden" that every new phone is crammed with. A small percentage of us refuse to be treated like a lamb being led to slaughter so root is absolutely necessary for privacy and security, not the other way around.....
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Thanks for your reply :fingers-crossed: , well I think telemetry services are linked to the 'Google play services', and if we don't use any Google accounts and disable and block the Google play services from sending usage data to Amazon and Google servers by using a non-root firewall like 'netguard' (like I specified in this thread) then they can't have anything or too little from us, :laugh: I have set up the firewall to block everything except my open source browser see attachment :laugh::laugh: