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I'm surprised by Chinese's reaction to the market. Shortly after iPhone 4's debut, so many counterfeits have been launched. The clone iphone 4 have multi-functions with a dirt cheap price comparing to the original Apple iphone.
I founded about 6 different models of clone iphone 4 just on tinydeal.com
I think it is not a bad idea if you could not afford a real iphone 4, what do you think?
I think it's very obviously a bad idea.
I'm not so sure why you're so surprise by the reaction. Chinese companies produce knockoffs of every popular phone out there. The prior iPhones all had multiple knockoffs too of varying similarities.
They all do have one thing in common, though. Not a single one of them are anywhere near as good as the iPhone.
I'm not a believer in the saying 'You get what you pay for' (I've bought too many great products at a low price to believe that adage), but, in this case, there's a reason why they're a fraction the cost of a real iPhone. They're not anywhere near as good in specs (aside from missing many important things, plenty of the listed specs could be extremely misleading or outright lies).
Of course, all of this is ignoring the elephant in the room: The fact that not one of those knockoffs will have Apple's iOS.
To get to the point, if you're willing to spend the money for a Chinese knockoff phone, that's completely fine. They come with nice specs at a low price. However, the idea that they would be a good substitute for what they're knocking off? No, never. Absolutely not.
Pokerface1987 said:
I'm surprised by Chinese's reaction to the market. Shortly after iPhone 4's debut, so many counterfeits have been launched. The clone iphone 4 have multi-functions with a dirt cheap price comparing to the original Apple iphone.
I founded about 6 different models of clone iphone 4 just on tinydeal.com
I think it is not a bad idea if you could not afford a real iphone 4, what do you think?
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Chinese have always made knock off's of just about EVERY highly bought phone/ smartphones in the market.
Yes the clone phone 4 does "somewhat" and I use that carefully, but it does not come anywhere close to the iPhone4.
Now to your question, if you CAN'T afford a true iPhone there are many other opitions out there, including buying an Android based phone. Also even if you are on the AT&T service you can just as easy get a smartphone unlocked and use it on another carrier.
Clonephone4 ---> SAD
Is it me or are the standard tablet prices way too high?
Just checked the pricing for Sony Tablet S (Wi-Fi only) £399/$499 (16GB) and £499/$599 (32GB) with the 3G version roughly 100 more.
Not blaming Sony for this as all companies seem to be inflated.
If all companies were to take a look at the recent HP Touchpad saga, can they not see the potential if the prices were lower? (Maybe not to that extent, but you catch my drift hopefully).
As consumers, if we were to all agree worldwide that we were not going to pay these prices for something we believe should be at least a couple of £/$100 cheaper. Wouldn't companies have to eventually reduce prices due the poor sales?
P.s. TO MODS - If this belongs in Q & A apologies.
I think that the tablet market is still preadolescence. I believe that this will be the case for at least one or two more years then we can expect the tablet market to become more competitive on high quality tablets.
Hell yeah. But these companies have to make a profit or at least break even on the hardware.
I got a Streak 7 for $150. Loved it. I'm looking to find a Xoom or Transformer now.
Its all about searching for deals I guess.
@MeInGatineau - The Touchpad industry being young in it's life cycle is true, but as it stands there is enough competition to drive prices down. Companies will only do this if we refuse to buy at the inflated prices.
@vetvito - The companies do not "need to" make profit/break even on hardware so early, they "want to". The combination of software sales, economies of scale and cheaper components etc. in the long run should make them more than enough profit.
Have a Nook cost 200 bucks
A Asus EE tablet 380.00
A Samsung 10.1 paid 480.00
and a 32 gig Touchpad Paid 230.00 for it.
Cost is driven more by hype and perception than by academic business models.
All the above are 100-300.00 more in the stores if you buy "off the shelf"retail.
Always NEVER do that unless you are rich.
Typically the way electronics work is : They R/D a design and get it to manufacture , once there, they figure the baseline amount needed to be sold @ a given price in order to break even (recoup all costs for the project) Then , after they pass that mark costs begin to decline.... unless it is a hot seller then they exploit the hype of the market for the extra profit benefit it brings for as long as it lasts.
Apple is better at keeping the hype up than most other people in the market today, which explains why they have a following, you get less and pay more for it, and think it is a deal. NOW! that's great marketing !!!
If you really want to know more on this and markets and how they work just look at the Intel chip market.
Yes tablets are expensive at the moment but I don't think this immediately points to greedy manufacturers with big profit margins. Developing the tablets are quite costly and they are probably just covering their costs. Once they gain experience and pick up, I'm sure scales of economy kick and and products will become cheaper. Exactly how the laptop market has gone.
Competition will always drive prices down but no manufacturer is going to sell the tablet at a loss unless they are able to re-coop that money from elsewhere. E.g. Amazon sell the Kindle at a loss as they make money on the ebooks. Carriers sell mobile phones at a loss as they make money on the tariffs and carrier services used.
HP were selling the TouchPad for a loss. They could do this because the alternative was probably a greater loss.
Just Me said:
@vetvito - The companies do not "need to" make profit/break even on hardware so early, they "want to". The combination of software sales, economies of scale and cheaper components etc. in the long run should make them more than enough profit.
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I don't see how software sales would make profit for a tablet manufacturer? Most tablet manufacturers opportunities for profit are with the tablet sales and official accessories for that tablet.
I would argue that manufacturers do need to make profit/break even as quickly as possible. Manufacturers cannot afford to have long drawn out periods for products to break even. They do not know how they will sell, what competition will do or any of the other million factors that affect economy.
This isn't to say pricing them high will get them to break even as quickly as possible. Because if they are too high then they will not get enough sales.
@oka1 - That is my partly my point. There are deals to be had if you shop around, but why are the prices not discounted in the first place. The person/company that you bought from, would have bought from 1-2 people before you and it is likely that they all made money from each item.
I also have a Touchpad but the 16GB version, which I paid £127. Above the insane price of £89, but now that I have it, I realise I might have paid £200, but the £350+ price tag was ridiculous imo.
Also, I get your R&D point to an extent, but then why bring out a newer model with only slightly better features in 6 to 12 months and price it at the same price, as the original. Surely the the R&D cost wouldn't have increased significantly for the new product
@Techno79 - I'm not in the industry, but I can't really see the development cost being high enough to justify such a high selling price. I know it's not as straight forward as this but, tablets are generally just big smart phones, some with less features (e.g. Wi-Fi only).
In comparison the laptops that you mention are probably more costly to build, but are cheaper and have a lot more functions.
My point is, I don't believe they have to sell them for as much as they do and if, as a society, simplified, we all turned around and said drop the price by a couple of 100 and we'll all buy one, they would.
My software sales point was more at certain companies that get a % of sales revenue for apps sold, but true it's probably not the case for all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that companies don't need to survive, I'm just saying, they should give a little back to the consumer that buy their products and help them make the vast amounts of profit they do.
In reality, as long as people are giving up their money as easy as they do, companies will sell at a premium.
hi
hi. this is just a test message
Yeah, it's too bad that companies want to make a profit.
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hp tablets
i just heard they were getting rid of these for like $99 bucks for 16gb
not a bad deal, can anyone confirm?
dutchman22 said:
i just heard they were getting rid of these for like $99 bucks for 16gb
not a bad deal, can anyone confirm?
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They sold millions in 2 days for that price and now they are sold out. I got mine off some guy who bought one and marked up 75 bucks
Just Me said:
@oka1
@Techno79 - I'm not in the industry, but I can't really see the development cost being high enough to justify such a high selling price. I know it's not as straight forward as this but, tablets are generally just big smart phones, some with less features (e.g. Wi-Fi only).
In comparison the laptops that you mention are probably more costly to build, but are cheaper and have a lot more functions.
My point is, I don't believe they have to sell them for as much as they do and if, as a society, simplified, we all turned around and said drop the price by a couple of 100 and we'll all buy one, they would.
My software sales point was more at certain companies that get a % of sales revenue for apps sold, but true it's probably not the case for all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that companies don't need to survive, I'm just saying, they should give a little back to the consumer that buy their products and help them make the vast amounts of profit they do.
In reality, as long as people are giving up their money as easy as they do, companies will sell at a premium.
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If you breakdown the different parts of a tablet's cost then you'll have something like this:
Hardware costs
Retail mark up
Taxes
Manufacturing/production costs
Manufacturer's Profit
Manufacturer's profit first has to cover the huge costs of R&D, marketing and service/maintenance. These combined costs run up in the millions and will take a lot of sales before they break even. I would guess that they'd need to sell 100s of thousands before they get to break even point. So, until they reach those sales figures, I do believe they are justified in selling a high selling price. Obviously, I'm not saying I like high costs but I do think the current Android tablet price points are somewhat justified.
Tablets may be larger versions of mobile phones, but like I said before, mobile phones can be sold at a loss as they offset the loss against consumers signing up to 12/18/24 month carrier plans and using additional cost services with that carrier. Take a look at SIM free mobile phone costs if you really want to compare like for like. Top end mobile phones can cost nearly £500.
Also, some of R&D can be reused from previous generation of devices. Manufacturers are probably on their 100th generation of laptops where as Android tablets are at the most on their 3rd or 4th generation and thus still very new. I think for this reason, laptops are probably cheaper to produce.
Competition also drives prices down a lot and there is obviously more competition with laptops than there is with tablets. When laptops were fairly new, they would cost well over £1000 for a decent model which is far more than the tablets at the moment. It's only in the last few years that laptops have been fairly cheap. I'm sure tablets will get to that point a lot quicker but I doubt we'll see that before end of 2011.
Also, not all tablets will be a super seller. Some tablets will flop and never cover their R&D and marketing costs. It's down to profits from other tablets that cover these costs.
I'm all for lower tablet costs but from manufacturers perspective, I don't see anything wrong with the current price points of Android tablets given how new Android tablets are and the level of competition in the market. It's guaranteed that costs will eventually come down.
Very valid points. I fully understand that everything you said is pretty much true, but there are many counter arguments to your points, so I'll agree to disagree overall.
But going back to what should have probably been the first line in the thread and not the last (I can see why the thread went the way it did, instead of the way I wanted):
"As consumers, if we were to all agree worldwide that we were not going to pay these prices for something we believe should be at least a couple of £/$100 cheaper. Wouldn't companies have to eventually reduce prices due the poor sales?"
Would this work? Or would the tablet market slowly die out?
Just Me said:
Very valid points. I fully understand that everything you said is pretty much true, but there are many counter arguments to your points, so I'll agree to disagree overall.
But going back to what should have probably been the first line in the thread and not the last (I can see why the thread went the way it did, instead of the way I wanted):
"As consumers, if we were to all agree worldwide that we were not going to pay these prices for something we believe should be at least a couple of £/$100 cheaper. Wouldn't companies have to eventually reduce prices due the poor sales?"
Would this work? Or would the tablet market slowly die out?
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I personally don't think this would work. There are many consumers who are extremely well off and are happy to pay the high price for early adoption. How would someone be able to co-ordinate such a consumer boycott. I think the current natural system works. If a manufacturer releases a product at too higher price, then less consumers will purchase it. As time goes on, and the product gets cheaper, more consumers are likely to jump on board to buy. However, if the product remains too high a price for the duration of the products life, then this will be seen with low total sales and low profit margins for the manufacturer (possibly even a loss). The manufacturer "should" learn their lesson and make the next product at a better price point.
If manufacturers can make more profit from selling 100k products at a high price than selling 1M products at a low price then they need some other incentive to sell at low price point.
Hypothetically speaking, if we could agree between all consumers to not buy the tablets at their high price to force manufacturers to release them at a low price then the profit margins could be so low that manufacturers give up on tablets as they realise they can get more profit from netbook/laptop and other consumer devices. So yes, I do think a global boycott for the high initial early adoption cost could kill the tablet market.
Practically, in here, yes they are. But comparatively with other devices/gadgets, the current tablet market is decently-priced.
Just like everything else the prices will drop after all the early adopters jump. There will be more choices and lower price points.
What is the difference between iPod Touch and iPhone? A $5 GSM/CDMA chip? Why $400 price difference?
Large screen Android tablets can be had for $200. Why unlocked phones are $600-800?
Sorry if it's been discussed, my search didn't find a good topic on the subject.
Wow, no answers! Noone else is interested in this question?
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Which?
They're expensive because of convenience, demand. people want it they gotta pay....
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They are so expensive, because people buy them anyways.
Manufactors and carriers are all after our money, why should they lower the price.
Besides that some devices also have to pay back the research that went into developing them.
Don't have any idea why unlocked phones are costlier but it you compare tablet and phone, size does matter. Smaller, faster and costier.
go overseas and see the prices some can have more then a hundred dollars difference even if they are the same devices
The price triples at the 3rd world countries. I wonder why.
Yeah, you're lucky for not live in a country like Brazil, there a smartphone like S2 or Iphone4 costs around 1000,00 US$ bucks...
well maybe unlucking phone is expensive because its not really designated in any other area than the original area, but the publisher wants to publicly sale it to other region. that can be the cause too
Development is expensive.
You buy a brand, this is why most of the time you pay double.. buy another phone with the same specs but with a non popular brand and you will pay less...
Not to mention that you are talking about Apple...
All your reasoning would apply for everything else electronic- TVs, MP3 or Blue Ray players, etc. Yet they all keep coming down in prices. But not the phones.
Yea, good question I was wondering the same.
It really is a gigantic gap between say an Iphone and Ipod touch in terms of price, yet the hardware has very little difference.
Seems like a marketing thing, as most users will want all the goodies packed together in a small package + a phone in one device.
It's a conspiracy i tell yea
You should see it like this. When you buy a phone, you pay for the development, the construction, the shipping, the people who check it, the people who made the software. add that up with an expensive casing (like HTC has.) and the euro's (or dollars) fly onto the price tag. With Apple, I don't know, they just rip your wallet.
Smartphones are still upcomming, with new technology added every time a new device is being developed.
Why is SSD more expensive than a normal HDD, because it's a new technology. DVD drives used to be really expensive aswell, look at them now they aren't so expensive anymore.
Anything that's new has a price, and it's your choice if you want to pay for it or not.
I hope this helps.
It's not that unbranded phones are more expensive, the price just isn't subsidised by the network operators.
Network operators sell you the handset at a loss, but tie you into a contract to recoup their initial cost. Customer inertia means there's a good chance you'll stay with them.
well they give you much more ie. i have an ace and i can do everything what i usually do on my pc... except gaming ofc.
Unlocked phones are not only expensive because of the demand. When you buy one on contract, you are going to end up paying over $1000 over the 2 year contract anyways. That's why they discount smartphones so much on contract, they know they will get paid back from the contract.
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I'm guessing prices don't come down on phones because carriers subsidize prices. Manufacturers know that and therefore prices will stay rather high. Having said that, development on new phone technology is going at a fast rate right now so manufacturers also are recouping those costs.
Althestrasz said:
You should see it like this. When you buy a phone, you pay for the development, the construction, the shipping, the people who check it, the people who made the software. add that up with an expensive casing (like HTC has.) and the euro's (or dollars) fly onto the price tag. With Apple, I don't know, they just rip your wallet.
Smartphones are still upcomming, with new technology added every time a new device is being developed.
Why is SSD more expensive than a normal HDD, because it's a new technology. DVD drives used to be really expensive aswell, look at them now they aren't so expensive anymore.
Anything that's new has a price, and it's your choice if you want to pay for it or not.
I hope this helps.
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Everything else also has to be developed, designed, engineered, assembled, shipped and retailed. In fact, iPod was developed before iPhone and they mostly made of the same parts.
Also, if you look at pricing for prepaid phones, I don't think that carriers subsidize that much. Mostly they hike their prices to force us in their contracts.
A week or so ago I saw a link on one of the "deal tracking" sites, an HTC tablet was offered for the same price with no contract or service as the "discounted" price from Sprint.
theyre expensives due to all research and work of the engineers...and of course to obtain more money from all of us...you want the finest and latest technology from theirs...you have to pay whatever their wants...
Guys, i bought a LeTV x600. Excited about this phone and the new (yet big) company in the phone world, i went to watch their presentation. It looks they are selling this phone, other models too, at cost price! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHNbrYGWQM&feature=youtu.be&t=6395
Their idea is to sell at cost price and make profit from their streamming service (they are the chinese netflix) used from the phones of course. Chinese companies are already releasing flagship phones for half the price. Some are really great. But this could be a paradigm shift in the way of doing business. I mean most companies have to get profit from phones, they don't have "other" services in order to make up for selling the phones at cost price. Operators already do something similar to this, the phone is for free, but they obligate you to use their network for 1 or 2 years. We can buy this phone with no obligation to use their streamming service.
I'm no business expert, Apple and Samsung will always be Apple and Samsung, but i think this could really hurt the small/medium players. This is not a "cheap" badly made phone just for the purpose of watching stuff. Just watch the reviews about it.
Think HP selling printers at low price, hopping to get the real (and absurdly high) profit from ink.
What do you think about this?
On a sidenote, the LeTV ROM have some nasty/lame bugs and they are being a bit slow to fix them. IMHO, nowadays most phones are released inmmaturely. Sure, smartphones are more complex than older phones, but still companies could spend a bit more time doing QA on them. They understimate the work and time to have a really mature software. But time runs fast nowadays. Having great specs on a phone is not enough. I think on this case, if LeTV doesn't change their attitude, they can say bye bye to their great idea. Because customers are impatient and don't forgive much.
Hi Android pips,
So as Chinese Smartphones becomes more and more popular and are pretty cheap with a decent specs I was wondering how does such market of a cheap and decent smartphones affects a security side of it and no I'm not talking about System Updates but viruses/backdoors itself placed in such devices if there are any ? I myself had recently to buy a new smartphone and didn't had much money so I have decided to go for Chinese smartphone and I got Cubot x12. The company seems pretty legit. What do you guys think about all of this ?